I. Christian game projects have terrible management.

A. Scheduling.
If you are an indie studio that's been trying to make a game for years with little to show for it, you have utterly failed the very first step to being successful, which is starting a project with a short and reasonable development cycle. An indie/low budget/no budget project should take place within 12 months, start to finish.

B. Scope.
This is related to the previous criticism. Your first game should maybe be a 2D puzzle game or something about that complicated. What if the Wright brothers had tried to start by building a lunar orbiting module, instead of a simple aircraft that could carry maybe one person across a large field? They would have failed. If you think your first game is going to be a MMO, you will fail, too, and miserably.

C. Blood drive.
If you are producing a game that you plan on selling commercially, then you should pay each and every one of the people that works on the game. If you are making a game that you are going to have as a free download, then go ahead and get volunteers. Just because people are willing to work for free doesn't mean that you should have them work on your project. I see people without the first idea about what it really takes to have a successful game project, running volunteer projects with the idea of selling the game for money. This is unethical, naive, and a terrible waste of other people's time and energy.

II. Christians are lazy.

A. Experience.
What's the deal with people from all walks of life thinking they can suddenly manage a game project--of volunteers, no less? With God, all things are possible, right? Here's what I'm praying will happen (and I believe it can), that game projects would be managed by people with enough skill to handle the job, and that the self-deluded would stop wasting people's time. Do you have the vision to see a game made? Great! Now, hire someone with the actual know-how to manage such a project.

B. Skill
One aspect about the personality of God is that He is willing to take the time and effort to get things right. Unfortunately, humans seem to enjoy shortcuts. "See a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings, he will not stand before obscure men." It's not easy to become skilled at making games. It takes a lot of time and a lot of hard work. It's enough that people make shoddy games, but do they have to be called Christian games--associating Christ with crap?

C. The Narrow Path
There are a lot of game studios that try to be successful but few are. Actually, the path is strewn with dead bodies, learn from their mistakes. If Christians want to make "Christian" games, the realization must be made that the Christian label is going to make a difficult industry that much harder. That means, you'd better be really good. The 800 lb gorilla in the room at this year's Christian Game Developers Conference, that some ignored, was that Left Behind Games, the great white hope of previous CGDC's, is the grandest failure ever recorded in the entire history of video games development. Don't expect any post-mortems, yet, as that Titanic is still sinking while the people on board are still unwilling to admit obvious defeat.

D. Torque Is Not A Game
If I see another "game demo" which is a video of some animated character walking around some terrain with trees and buildings, I am going to scream. I believe that this sort of "demo" takes a short afternoon to make from scratch in Torque. It's not a game. It's not even a good starting place for a game. A good starting place for a game would be some prototyped gameplay, or a storyboard. Things like nice terrain and animations come later.

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|steveth45|
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[This message has been edited by steveth45 (edited October 20, 2007).]

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A. Scheduling.
If you are an indie studio that's been trying to make a game for years with little to show for it, you have utterly failed the very first step to being successful, which is starting a project with a short and reasonable development cycle. An indie/low budget/no budget project should take place within 12 months, start to finish.

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B. Scope.
This is related to the previous criticism. Your first game should maybe be a 2D puzzle game or something about that complicated. What if the Wright brothers had tried to start by building a lunar orbiting module, instead of a simple aircraft that could carry maybe one person across a large field? They would have failed. If you think your first game is going to be a MMO, you will fail, too, and miserably.

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C. Blood drive.
If you are producing a game that you plan on selling commercially, then you should pay each and every one of the people that works on the game. If you are making a game that you are going to have as a free download, then go ahead and get volunteers. Just because people are willing to work for free doesn't mean that you should have them work on your project. I see people without the first idea about what it really takes to have a successful game project, running volunteer projects with the idea of selling the game for money. This is unethical, naive, and a terrible waste of other people's time and energy.

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II. Christians are lazy.

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A. Experience.
What's the deal with people from all walks of life thinking they can suddenly manage a game project--of volunteers, no less? With God, all things are possible, right? Here's what I'm praying will happen (and I believe it can), that game projects would be managed by people with enough skill to handle the job, and that the self-deluded would stop wasting people's time. Do you have the vision to see a game made? Great! Now, hire someone with the actual know-how to manage such a project.

---

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B. Skill
One aspect about the personality of God is that He is willing to take the time and effort to get things right. Unfortunately, humans seem to enjoy shortcuts. "See a man skilled in his work? He will stand before kings, he will not stand before obscure men." It's not easy to become skilled at making games. It takes a lot of time and a lot of hard work. It's enough that people make shoddy games, but do they have to be called Christian games--associating Christ with crap?

---

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C. The Narrow Path
There are a lot of game studios that try to be successful but few are. Actually, the path is strewn with dead bodies, learn from their mistakes. If Christians want to make "Christian" games, the realization must be made that the Christian label is going to make a difficult industry that much harder. That means, you'd better be really good. The 800 lb gorilla in the room at this year's Christian Game Developers Conference, that some ignored, was that Left Behind Games, the great white hope of previous CGDC's, is the grandest failure ever recorded in the entire history of video games development. Don't expect any post-mortems, yet, as that Titanic is still sinking while the people on board are still unwilling to admit obvious defeat.

---

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D. Torque Is Not A Game
If I see another "game demo" which is a video of some animated character walking around some terrain with trees and buildings, I am going to scream. I believe that this sort of "demo" takes a short afternoon to make from scratch in Torque. It's not a game. It's not even a good starting place for a game. A good starting place for a game would be some prototyped gameplay, or a storyboard. Things like nice terrain and animations come later.

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You have raised some interesting points. What do others think?

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler

I started writing something up but it's taking too long. I saved it off and will hopefully write some more later.

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This depends on how you are measuring success. I know many indies who just code for fun, they don't neccesarily have the resources or care about actually getting a project out in 12 months. A lot of Indies that i know of, just code because it's a hobby, not a business. They have families, hobbies and some are even on the mission field for months on end. They haven't failed, they learn, they grow.

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I have seen on many occasions churches and ministries fail because man has got in the way, thinking they know how to do it all, because they have experience (or been to Bible college), and they no longer trust God to do things, they just do it in their own strength. Your sure to fail this way. In contrast I have seen people really step out of the boat in faith, knowing they have no idea how they are going to start this ministry or that Church, and they have to fully rely on God, and they are always succesfull.

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God provides us with oppurtunities to gain experience, and many times, people, in their zeal, ignore them completely and take what seems to be the quick and easy path to their goals.
Of course, they find out that without filling up on gas at the last station God provided, they run out of fuel on the long road of project management.

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Q.E.D.

There's been too much nitpicking and not enough 'true' encouragement.

There's been too much alienation and not enough community.

A few comments, though:

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Your first game should maybe be a 2D puzzle game or something about that complicated.

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That is the common advice given out, but I don't entirely agree. If the person/team is new to software development in general, I totally agree. However, often skilled, experienced developers of non-game apps get involved in game development and are able to take on larger projects. Behind the eye-candy and fun-factor of games, they are just like any other software development project.

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I see people without the first idea about what it really takes to have a successful game project, running volunteer projects with the idea of selling the game for money. This is unethical, naive, and a terrible waste of other people's time and energy.

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It is usually naive, but it's not unethical if all parties agree up-front to how any future monies are distributed.

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The 800 lb gorilla in the room at this year's Christian Game Developers Conference, that some ignored, was that Left Behind Games, the great white hope of previous CGDC's, is the grandest failure ever recorded in the entire history of video games development.

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I don't know much of the details behind the project, but from my perspective they made 2 main mistakes:

- extremely limited market: the Christian game market is small enough without having to also cut out a huge percentage who disagree with the underlying premise/doctrine. Even though "pretrib rapture" is big in some circles, people in those circles often fail to realize their circles are not as big as they think they are. If you're after profit, avoid controversial/debatable doctrine being a dominant factor of your game.

- poor game-play: This happened on two levels. First, the violent factor turned off a lot of critics and potential buyers. Second, the fun-factor was missing - if you did try out the demo first, it took longer to do the download that it did to figure out that the game was simply not fun and uninstall it.

I'm not a fan of the Left Behind stuff in general, but I really hope that LBG is able to recover, maybe by a new project.

One closing comment about Steveth45's post: for all those newbie game developers out there, don't get discouraged. Jump in and work on your ideas - but keep in mind you'll have a greater chance of finishing your projects if you do it smart: make a plan, learn from your mistakes, and keep talking to other developers!

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Brian

"OOP programmers have a lot of class"

Check out this webhost! Fantastic prices, features and support!

Anyways, I agree with most of the points steveth45 made but I'm not sure they apply to all Christian game developers. The way I see it, most people who visit this site are great coders but don't fully understand the business side of it. And truthfully a few years ago I was clueless about project management as well, or thought it was a dumb idea.

I also want to mention that all of these "symptoms" can be resolved with a good leader. Someone who picks the right people for the job and delegates tasks well. If you are missing this key component then your project is headed for trouble. Team discussion/contribution is great but it can lead to lack of direction.

Steve, you're one of the smartest guys here and you have a very sharp mind. You're exactly the type of person that a christian developer needs. You should help one of those people. Your words are well-phrased and if put into practice would work like a well-oiled machine. But God's priority is not perfect plans. He desires mercy, not sacrifice. He needs us to help one another. Your ideas would work, so join a team and share them. Christian game developers need you. Be patient with them. They're not perfect. In fact, they're fools by the world's standard, so see them with the eyes of faith.

I am one such fool. My first christian game looked bad. So I made one that looked great and the game-play was too repetitive. And on and on with failure and failure... But I can't give up. It's a part of me to make Christian entertainment. Maybe someday it will pop big and I'll be a rich and famous Christian celebrity. But maybe I'll never see the fruits of my labor, like all the people in the "Hall of Faith" in the book of Hebrews. None of them saw the fufillment of the vision they stood by. But seeing success or not doesn't matter. It can't matter. I do what I do because that's the way God's made me. It brings me joy.

So, may the Lord bless you all.

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I've seen plenty of people with the best of intentions fail utterly because they were completely incompetant in the field of their ministry, closing their eyes saying that God will make everything work out.
There is trusting in God, and there is using Him as an excuse for inactivity.

God provides us with oppurtunities to gain experience, and many times, people, in their zeal, ignore them completely and take what seems to be the quick and easy path to their goals.
Of course, they find out that without filling up on gas at the last station God provided, they run out of fuel on the long road of project management.

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler

I believe success (whatever one's particular definition) is within grasp for anyone excited about making games. Enthusiasm and vision are everything. So is wisdom and hard work.

Mack, I don't understand if your three points are generalizations about this forum, or my post, or the discussion. Too much talk? It's a forum. Plus, the speed game competition seems to have been a resounding success. Where's the nitpicking? I painted with a broad brush and tried to bring up some epidemic issues. Despite the decrepit forum software, and occasional protracted idealogical battles, this is one of the healthier and more interesting forums on the 'net, IMHO.

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|steveth45|
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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler

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Originally posted by D-SIPL:
I agree. People can just sit back and naively believe that God will do everything for them and they have to do nothing. What I believe is that it is sometimes good to be in a position where you have to fully rely on God because what you are doing is far bigger then what you can acheive in your own strength. My Pastor used to say "If you do the possible, God will do the impossible", thats kinda stuck with me.

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That fits with James 2:26: “So then, as the body without the spirit is dead, also faith without actions is dead.”

You need faith and actions to make a successful (not just financially or in popularity) game.

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

"Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh."

Any fool can know, the point is to understand. -- Albert Einstein

My Programming and Hacker/Geek related Blog

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Originally posted by steveth45:
Mack, I don't understand if your three points are generalizations about this forum, or my post, or the discussion. Too much talk? It's a forum. Plus, the speed game competition seems to have been a resounding success. Where's the nitpicking? I painted with a broad brush and tried to bring up some epidemic issues. Despite the decrepit forum software, and occasional protracted ideological battles, this is one of the healthier and more interesting forums on the 'net, IMHO.

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Originally posted by D-SIPL:
I think Mack was referring to the Christian Games Industry.

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Correct.

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Originally posted by D-SIPL:

Your right Torque is not a game. It is however a very good framework from which to make a game.

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It's a great platform to write a game with. I hope nobody thought I suggested otherwise. I was just saying that using the built-in functionality of the engine (a guy running around some terrain) makes for a nice tech-demo of Torque. It's as much a game as a cement foundation is a house, or a V8 engine is a custom hot-rod.

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|steveth45|
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Originally posted by JeTSpice:
Your ideas would work, so join a team and share them. Christian game developers need you. Be patient with them. They're not perfect. In fact, they're fools by the world's standard, so see them with the eyes of faith.

I am one such fool.

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I would be willing to help a team if the game is non-profit, as I'm contractually bound to not contributing to commercial game projects outside of my company.

Anyone involved in making games is foolish, and visionary, and a kid at heart. There's nothing I'd rather do. I applaud everyone who treads this crazy path.

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