so why don't you guys come up with a game idea of your own agree on it and make a ccn community game?

keep in mind this is just a suggestion .

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

However, this will need to be well organized, headed off by someone who has good game development and management experience. People will have to partitioned into respect positions (for which they can apply/be requested for). It'd have to be treated like a company.

Maybe make it a regular "one month" project, that comes around so often times a year.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

one reason why I think the speed games work better than a community game is the incentive to complete (i.e. the prize). this makes the deadline a more critical defining point.

maybe we can have a team or community voted MVP(top contributor) at the end of each session? maybe a few in different categories.

EDIT: Another thing... Let's not start with an RPG.

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Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited August 27, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited August 27, 2007).]

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

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Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

I think it's a great idea, but I remember this coming up a few months ago and we ended up arguing over what compiler to use. Python? Gnu? Mingw? Visual Studio? .NET? C++? BlitzBasic? Visual Basic? Torque? OpenGL? Ogre? Irrlicht? These are all questions which need to be answered and it's difficult to conclude when you have such diverse backgrounds. Add on top of that the style of game, features, etc.

I think it takes one or two or three people to plan out a game and just say, "I'm going to start this. Who wants to help out?" Have the tools picked out already.

I'd like to second Gump's suggestion. A casual game has the highest chance of getting completed. Contains a smaller, more managable scope, and probably more easily defined gameplay details.

i don't see the problem if we have someone manage it.

could you guys imagine the kind of problems the founders of u.s.a. faced in congress everyone wanting to have it their own way? they came up with the voting system/congress(i'm not sure if they came up with it),my point is if we are commited to making a game we can do it we can find a way around the issues(like the one i just suggested),but the first thing is everyone has to agree to make a game if we can't do that or if too few people want to be involved the whole thing collapses but if enough people agree this could possibly be a start of something big.

btw,i didn't mean we can make a game the size of gta i was just using that as an example,of course it's best to start small.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

and yes, a casual game would be ideal.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

As for languages, #1 it should be free, if only speaking for myself, I can't fork up $100 for this to get Torque. Idk how useful the Demo is. I guess if someone had a compiler, then a demo like Blitz3d would work.

Storyline would be even more difficult. First I think we should like have something like what Star Wars did. Have different people brainstorm, and make a bunch of Ideas, and polish them, and then submit them, then the "George Lucas/Top Dog" would say I don't like this, and why. We'd have to vote for him.

Are we going to do a Christian game? If we were to do this, I know who I'm voting for. Now, as for the problem of voting for yourself, I think it should be done that that can't be done.

As to get everybody in, those that can do art, should do art, those that can do music, should do music, finally those that aren't computer geeks, like music/web/art/programming could do like a champlain type thing.

Another Idea is I think after the main leader, we should have a couple of assistants for the "general". People who may assign to different their people different jobs, and people who can give a report. A great way to supplement this would be through the web. To have a form (I got this from an actual companies work) which work like with what they called, "tickets" of which say the "General" sees something needing to be done, he might put out a ticket for "Sound needs more amplification" or, "Bug found in multiplayer mode. Description:

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto
I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

I would be more open to assist with the later and devote in prayer to seek God's will on that. And so, maybe I could help more in the that area.

I would really like to hear every one's thoughts on this?

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

I don't know what other people think, but it's been my experience that working on a team project is harder than working on a project all by yourself.

The more teammates you have, the more stress you have. The more teammates, the more likely it is that there will be miscommunication, needed rework, feelings hurt, and balls dropped. Adding teammates to a project is a risk.

But there can also be great benefit in it. As Proverbs 15:22 tells us:

quote:

---

Without counsel plans fail,
but with many advisers they succeed.

---

So a larger team certainly has greater potential. I just want us all to be aware of the cost at which that potential comes. Project management is a very very tough thing, as I think any coordinator-of-volunteer-group-efforts can attest (CPUFreak? Sparkling? InsanePoet?).

This is sortof why I don't feel that teams should be penalized in the speedgame competition, as putting forth a concerted coordinated effort isn't exactly easy. People have different ideas, we have different goals, we work in different ways, we have different priorities, etc.

I want to type up more about this in the postmortem for Finding Keepers, but even though Charlie and I are great friends and we made a design document early on, we still had miscommunication issues that we had to work out, where I thought he meant one thing but he really intended for me to do something else, and vice-versa. I'm glad I get free nights and weekends on my cell phone, because we literally spent many hours talking long-distance on the phone with each other, often calling several times a day in order to stay in sync on things. And that was just with two developers.

So these are just some things to think about and work through. I could write more, but this might be enough food for thought at the moment.

In Christ,
clint

P.S. I don't think that the previous community project is finished yet -- if we are interested in finishing what we start as a community, we might want to make a group-push and get that one to 1.0 before we abandon it and try something else.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

I enjoy working with teams at work and is actually one of my qualifications when looking for a job. But I can definitely see how having team members across various timezones and locations can make it much more difficult.

I suggest examining the game entries and deciding if one of those will work as a project. Or continue with BibleDave as Clint has suggested.

and don't forget pm's we can use those here. and the best place to meet as i have said many times before is irc(since it's real time and anyone can join anytime).

but you guys are the expert and i believe you when you say we will have problems when working on a team any kind of team it could even be a basketball team there are bound to be problems but people manage it.

as for timezones i think if we can find a bulletin bord system or even a thread here at ccn we can manage through that.

i think the more people you have the easier it gets because one person is devoted just to one part of the development(graphics,sound ,coding,etc..)

about what clint said when making finding keepers the problem there could be that there were only two people and my guess is both of you were working
on the whole game as oppose to divide and conquer(or is it konquer? kde got me confused) .but i don't know a lot about this i could really be wrong on this one.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Now, yes we do have other projects, but one important thing to consider is that it can be hard for a bunch of new people to go into a game that's 80 percent done.

When working with teams, we need to come up with a project that suites the team members.

Things to consider,

Programming Language: Of the coders willing, what would be the best language that would be the best for everyone. This may be as simple as the language that everyone knows, maybe not.

Interest: Everyone on the team has to maintain some level of interest in the project. This interest can be affected by the genre and content.

We must also realistically assess what we are capable of with the given time.

If we really want to start on a project. We will need a few concept documents. These would be 1-pagers on the game itself, which would contain enough information to the team to determine whether or not this is the route they want to take.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

quote:

---

Originally posted by samw3:

maybe we can have a team or community voted MVP(top contributor) at the end of each session? maybe a few in different categories.

---

I have to be honest, this doesn't seem like the best idea to me. This would seem to tear down team cohesion and serve only to harm the group as a whole.

Members will no longer be working as a team, but trampling over one another for the prize.

Also, who is to judge top contribution? There is no real way to measure that.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

I just wanted to lay out some cautions with them. I don't have a ton of experience finishing projects, I know others have more completed games than I do.

Charlie and I were fairly separate in our roles -- he primarily did the game design with writing the design doc, he did most of the graphics, and he did all of the level design. I primarily did implementation, just hunkering down and writing code to do the interface and gameplay. I think we did a good job of staying in sync, but it was something we had to work at consciously, because it was easy for me to start implementing something other than what he had imagined. It started happening a few times, but we were pretty good about staying in communication, and we were able to nip those things in the bud so as to not have to spend too much time with rework.

I really do think that team projects are a lot of fun -- Bible Dave has been a fantastic project for me to work on, and I've grown so much through it. Even if we didn't finish up the first Bible Dave, it's a game that has gained a decent amount of popularity, and we've sortof built up a brand with it. I've thought in the past that the next community project might do well as a sequel to the first Bible Dave.

quote:

---

Originally posted by InsanePoet:
Now, yes we do have other projects, but one important thing to consider is that it can be hard for a bunch of new people to go into a game that's 80 percent done.

---

The main reason why I wanted to say that we finish that one up is because many people here suffer from Chronic Unfinished Project Syndrome (myself included). It's something I've been working on combating as I'm trying to grow into a better and more godly programmer, and so I thought we might want to start this project off on the right foot by working together to get a previous project more "finished".

We don't have to if noone else wants to -- it was really just a suggestion. I personally wouldn't be inclined to start a new project until we finish up the last one -- to do so would just seem to cater to bad (sinful?) habits.

In Christ,
clint

P.S. In the past, we've tried to sortof "pass the torch" for the responsibility of leading community projects, and as such, I'm inclined to see who else is interested in leading before we automatically assume InsanePoet is leading it again. We could break that pattern, I'm just saying what we've done here in the past.

two better than one.

organizing a project where many people are involved in can be hard wouldn't it be best if the management was divided by itself or maybe someone is the project manager as a whole and someone else handles the design management,etc...as long as it doesn't lead to more confusion.

just an idea.and it all depends on how many people are involved.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by HanClinto:

P.S. In the past, we've tried to sortof "pass the torch" for the responsibility of leading community projects, and as such, I'm inclined to see who else is interested in leading before we automatically assume InsanePoet is leading it again. We could break that pattern, I'm just saying what we've done here in the past.

---

I would make the distinction between project coordinator and team leader.

I don't think I have the time resources to lead a project again. But one ability I am offering is really managing and assigning work. Triage if you will. It's more of an assistant to the team lead. I know it's hard to design the game and then manage every individual in every department. Having a project coordinator would allow the lead designer to do just that.. design. I'll organize the workforce.

BTW. I can also help out with graphics. I don't feel comfortable taking lead on the graphics, but I can certainly lend a hand in that regard as well.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by InsanePoet (edited August 28, 2007).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by spade89:
i thought there were going to be more than one managers?

two better than one.

organizing a project where many people are involved in can be hard wouldn't it be best if the management was divided by itself or maybe someone is the project manager as a whole and someone else handles the design management,etc...as long as it doesn't lead to more confusion.

just an idea.and it all depends on how many people are involved.

---

well, one head. Two people in charge would be chaos.
Now, there should be Code Leads, Art Leads, etc, who report to the Project Lead and are in charge of their division. Project Lead says we need preliminary character sprites by so-and-so date and the Art Lead splits it up (along with working on it, too).
It could be set up that the Project Lead doesn't do any development himself, but is concerned with administration. However, that is always harder than it looks. The success and failure of the project is in their hands.

and yes, there will be added complications to doing a team project, but for that reason, we should. the days of the lone coder is over. Everything is team work and the more experience in that, the better.

We could always keep this on ice, maybe led the Project Lead(or potential leads) come up with an idea or two, design docs, and when BibleDave is done, we can shift gears for this. Anybody who wants to get started now can start helping with BD.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
We could always keep this on ice, maybe led the Project Lead(or potential leads) come up with an idea or two, design docs, and when BibleDave is done, we can shift gears for this. Anybody who wants to get started now can start helping with BD.

---

I like everything that you're saying about getting the design doc settled *before* coders are recruited / put-to-work. (...that is what you're saying, right?)

Perhaps putting in work on Bible Dave could sortof be a way to "make your bones" and prove yourself for responsibility on the next community project? Is that some of what you had in mind?

and as you stated, finishing a project is always nice.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

Project Manager
Team Lead --- Team Lead --- Team Lead
Team Team Team

Often the Project Manager is simply the person with an overall view of the project. They typically keep lists of tasks, progress, future plans, etc. They are also the one who the team leads will talk with about future plans and tasks. Basically a person to manage as well as have an overall goal and keep in mind all issues. Another important task of this person is to help eliminate blocking issues for people. For example, say a coder is trying to code a visual effect and is beyond the programmer art part to test this. The coder then can express this to their Lead Programmer who either gives them another option or then expresses it to the Project Manager. The Project Manager can then relate this blocking issue to the Art Lead which figures out how to get this issue resolved.

The Project Manager does very little game work, though sometimes contributes in minor ways to either design, coding, and/or art. Someone who has great communication skills is essential. Someone who can read a person and figure out the best way to work with that person. Also someone who can be decisive as well as considerate. They also should have an understanding of general game dev or game dev concepts so they can help direct the overall goal. Their job is not to assign tasks, but to gather them from the Team Leads and keep them in an overall projection of what needs to be done when.

The Team Leads gather tasks from team members. They don't really assign tasks but talk with their team members to figure out what tasks they want to get done out of what needs done. They need to be someone who works well with people as well, especially reading people and how to communicate with them. Some people like to determine their own tasks and work great when doing so, some people need tasks assigned to them but won't relate that, others think they are one or the other (or somewhere in between) but in fact are happier when handled differently. The Team Lead needs these communication and people reading skills to be able to ensure their team is efficient and happy.

The Team Lead is also liaison to the Project Manager, they deliver task lists to the Project Manager who keeps record of what is being done and when.

The Team Lead can have authority though I am more fond of a collaborative approach. Someone who somewhat directs their teams tasks but doesn't dictate them. People are more productive when they are happy and doing what they want.

This is at least my take on it Based on what I've seen work.

Also, I like the idea of a community project. Very hard thing to accomplish but could be a blast. If everyone ends up using a Torque Engine I would love to contribute... though I understand reasons why people may not choose it (due to preferences or price barrier)... my time is unfortunately very limited so I won't be able to contribute (at least I doubt it) if Torque isn't used. Either way I wish the best and would love to track how this goes

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

I like the idea of finishing bibledave although i never played it or seen the code it'd be nice for everyone else to get used to the kind of coding style everyone else uses and to get used to one anothers work.

and if you guys aren't already using it you should probably consider sourceforge and svn.

but first thing is first let's choose who all the leaders are.

if yall are in on this project.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I may not have time time to take on such a role this time around *and*

As Clint said, that others may want the opportunity.

I would be *more* than willing to serve on the graphics team.

So here are my ignorant thoughts on Bible Dave.

my understanding was that the engine is pretty much complete and all that is left is the addition of levels. However, I am thinking, based on what people are saying, is that there are some more things to do.

I think a good first step would be to do some significant playtesting/brainstorming and come up with some realistic goals for what we want bible dave to become. (Maybe this has already been done, I don't know)
From here we can extrapolate a TODO list.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by InsanePoet (edited August 29, 2007).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by InsanePoet:
I think a good first step would be to do some significant playtesting/brainstorming and come up with some realistic goals for what we want bible dave to become. (Maybe this has already been done, I don't know)
From here we can extrapolate a TODO list.

---

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto
I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:
Anybody who wants to get started now can start helping with BD.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by InsanePoet:
So here are my ignorant thoughts on Bible Dave.

my understanding was that the engine is pretty much complete and all that is left is the addition of levels. However, I am thinking, based on what people are saying, is that there are some more things to do.

---

quote:

---

I think a good first step would be to do some significant playtesting/brainstorming and come up with some realistic goals for what we want bible dave to become. (Maybe this has already been done, I don't know)
From here we can extrapolate a TODO list.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HanClinto:
Sounds great, Poet. CPUFreak, do you have an up-to-date punch list / roadmap for Bible Dave?

---

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

"Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh."

Open source, open mind.

My Programming and Hacker/Geek related Blog

[This message has been edited by CPUFreak91 (edited August 29, 2007).]

quote:

---

That's correct. Other than fixing a few bugs, and adding several levels Bible Dave is ready to be shipped, and even sold. I'm not planning on selling it though, nor do I think me selling the game is fair to the people who worked on the game. If I sold the game and donated all proceeds to a Christian organization or charity, I (and most of the devs, I imagine) would have no problems with that. Just FYI, anyone is free to sell the game if they want, the license doesn't restrict that . I just wanted to state that I don't intend to make money off the project.

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Just a few Ideas

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto
I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

[This message has been edited by Mene-Mene (edited August 29, 2007).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mene-Mene:
I might be a possible volunteer for Bible Dave, the only problem is idk Python.

---

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

"Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh."

Open source, open mind.

My Programming and Hacker/Geek related Blog

quote:

---

Originally posted by gump:
Since this is a "CCN Project" may I suggest assigning an impartial arbiter who is not directly part of the project in order to settle potential disputes?

---

No you may not suggest this. I demand that you edit your post.

Just kidding, yes that's a good idea. The real question is, is there anyone who is impartial?

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios