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legislated morality issues again – klumsy

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
ok here is an example of legistlated morality in my country, two examples - one that i agree with and one i don't

the first is we have enacted a law probitting smoking in ALL restraunts, bars, nightclubs etc. I disagree with this as its too controlloing, (even though i hate smoking and like a smokefree enviroment, but the majority of people who go to clubs etc smoke. its your choice to go or not. anyway thing isn't the issue i am really writing about. the paradox is the green party is one of the parties who was pushing for this ban , while on the other hand they are pushing to legalise cannibis - go figure.

we have banned the game "manhunt"
read this article
http://xtramsn.co.nz/technology/0,,7003-2915911,00.html

i believe it is important to have laws to protect society as a large for the blantent evils around. This game is just the epitomy of that evil - the game industry as an average is quite evil and dark, but this is just worse.

who agrees that such game should be banned?

laws are a two handed sword. Laws in the hands of Godly people are there for justice and order, and work. God has ordained such order. But when people in power don';t have respect for laws then laws are used to repress freedoms and evil to name good as evil, evil as good.

for i know that 'hate speech' laws , though good in one side, in the end will be used against christians.

lots of food for comments and reflection there.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
too controlling.
the banning of the game is a violation of the first amendment.
companys can ban it, people can boycott it, but gov can't do anything.


EDIT: spelling and changing "second amendment" into "first amendment"
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[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited December 13, 2003).]

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
thats true about the 2nd amendment (though not in NZ)
however can the govt ban certian drugs?
can the govt ban activities such as rape.
can the govt ban cannibilism of willing victims?

i love the US constitution, and it was made by some people who understood all too well the human condition and the human nature, so i respect it for that,

but i won't make an idol out of it either, but it is valuable.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
whoops..sry... not second. that's the right to keep and bear arms.
sry, mixed, both amendments were being abused by people. FIRST amendment...

drugs, rape and cannibilism is not protected first amendment.
and Rape should be illegal (and is...)

and yeah, the constitution is not infallible, that's why the people who made it let there be amendments.

P.S. Klumsy, you do live in US, right?

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Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
doh, i was just echoing you.. (not that i'm any good at numbers and indexes, i can quote alot of scriptures word for word, but don't ask me the chapter and verse :P i cannot use a phone book in alphabetical order, it takes me forever to work it out.

i'm the hyper link generation, order in disorder
i wouldn't be able to tell you which is which.

oh a funny thing..

too much american t.v in NZ produces the following

many new zelanders who get arrested by the cops say "i plead the 5th - after hearing it on the movies". like wrong country, one we don't have any constiution and thus no amendments , two if we did have a consitution its likely the 5th amendment would be something else.

and no i'm not currently living in america, but New Zealand
though i work in america, own a home and car in america, and pay my taxes to the IRS and was in america two months ago, but its winter there now, so i'm downunder in New Zealand, at least for the antipodean summer
might spend next american summer in america (but maybe not due timing with flying and my wife's pregnancy, and we want to have the baby in New Zealand since the medical system as far as having babies is much better here.

then we are off somewhere that God decides, quite possibly central asia.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
Really, I think banning Manhunt is stupid for multiple reasons

A) Any game is FANTASY if you respect God as the ultimate REALITY then fantasy can do no harm---because Reality should always have a precedent over fantasy---but then again that is a self control issue that parents should be teaching their kids!

B) Lets look at the game company: Take Two and Rockstar---they are the shock rockers of the industry!! They are getting publicity in every other country because of this---has anyone noticed they have barely advertised Manhunt? Well, now they have free advertising and access to one of the most powerful ad tools----the 'forbidden fruit' syndrom (ie----something that sounds just a little bad has a lot of appeal). Any NZ sales lost will be made up in other countries-----plus they will probably censor the game for NZ like they did on Vice City for New York and Aussie----so I doubt the company is stressing the ban at all.

C) the story line is that you are forced to be in a snuff film---yet when a story about snuff films (8mm--the nicholas cage movie) hits the big screen, no one cares-------why do people think every game has to be aimed at little kids but movies are given free intellectual reign? Now, once again knowing the company, I am sure there is some intense stuff in Manhunt, but once again it is fantasy-----it is not real just like the movies---i don't understand where there is a divider line between games and movies--both are storytelling mediums. Plus, look at it this way, if Rockstar has the right to say what they want and make what they want, so do you! If we censor one group, (like said in a previous post) where do we stop? everybody has a different opinion of what is offensive.

D) You guys talked about the first amendment-------well there is a lot of times actually where our first amendment rights are violated so the amendments and even the constitution are constantly ignored. For instance, due to the Hazelwood Court Decision, a High School Journalist is not eligabvle for any rights, so a KKK member has more first amendment rights than someone being trained to give us the news someday! Also, if you have an opinion the Gov' disagrees with (let's say, you disagree with the Iraqi war or something), then (per USA Today) the Gov' has the right to keep more information on you than a normal citizen, basically disagreeing with the Gov' is the equivalent of throwing your right to privacy partially out the door-----------so what our fore fathers wrote down and how our current Gov behaives are two different things:-( Which is sad----becuase the ability to speak freely and question your government was two principals we were founded on, but now people just come up with all these reasons why you can only say what is popular and that, if you disagree with the gov, you should move------talk about a 180 in values hehe but yeah I am done off my soapbox!

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
yeah, our first amendment and second amendment are constantly being encroached. most uncool. People just love to give up their freedoms, why? well, k, I know why, because they're too lazy to be responsible.

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BKewl

Member

Posts: 144
From: St. Charles, MO, USA
Registered: 07-10-2002
Okay, trying to reign back in the subject matter, hehe...

As far as banning smoking I'm all for that. Yes, maybe your statement about most people who go to bars and clubs smoke is accurate, but I kind of doubt that most people who go to restaurants smoke (maybe 50% is more accurate there give or take 50% j/k). I don't quite know the extent of the law, but maybe applying it only to places where a good number of people don't smoke would be something more reasonable (I know, I know, how do you define what "a good number of people" is?). From a purely liberties point of view, whenever I go to a restaurant and there are people smoking (let's not fool ourselves into thinking "smoking" and "non-smoking" areas actually work), *they're* the ones encroaching on my freedoms, not the opposite (that is, they're choosing to kill themselves; I haven't chosen this for myself, but yet their choice has affected me through second-hand smoke). Therefore, it seems logical that they should be the ones to be made to go outside or some closed-off and well-ventilated "smoking booth" or something. This is up for discussion, though, and I just re-read that this wasn't the issue you were really writing about (doh!).

I'm always torn when it comes to things like Manhunt. Games like that are indeed horrible, but it would be violating 1st amendment rights to prevent their sale. I tend to side with the idea that for issues like this, the best solution (lesser of evils) is to ensure that kids don't have access to it, and then leave it up to the "change needs to happen through motives instead of just legislation, otherwise people will just find ways around it" idea; a lot like pornography is treated (another huge plague on this earth). Alas, I don't think any change in heart will come unless people are Christians who are devoted for God (otherwise, why should they have a change of heart?). Therefore, we need to actively seek to show people the Truth.

The pleading the fifth thing is ironic, and really sad.

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
as for the smoking in restraunts

most restruants in NEW Zealand were already smoke-free because of the market. Because most people like you and I don't like a smoking enviroment, the facts that restraunts wanted more people choose them to go smokefree.

as for the manhunt i am torn. i am happy it is banned, yet with banning its where do you draw the line.. as i said in a previous post. laws, the constitution etc, are only maximumly valuable when the powers that be are God fearing. But letting evil be completely unleased (unless its actually hurting somebody else - like murder , rape) is not the answer, because many of these things do hurt so many. (i.e pornography .. i am always reminded of the scripture about men inventing new ways to do evil)


but zookey,
the line between fantasy and reality is slim, the bible says as a man things in his heart so he is, vision is a powerful thing for good for for evil, a man is held accountible to God for fantasy thoughts of lust, not just doing them.. the same for fantasy thoughts and pleasure out of violence.
with your fantasy/reality line, would you think it innocent of a christian adult to play manhunt?

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by klumsy:
but zookey,
the line between fantasy and reality is slim, the bible says as a man things in his heart so he is, vision is a powerful thing for good for for evil, a man is held accountible to God for fantasy thoughts of lust, not just doing them.. the same for fantasy thoughts and pleasure out of violence.
with your fantasy/reality line, would you think it innocent of a christian adult to play manhunt?

I draw the line between the Bible and Movies. What is happening really and what is a story. The Bible is real, and what is happening in this world is real-----movies and games are just stories. A fantasy of Lust is totally different than a fantasy story-----lust is wanting to make something happen in the real world, a fantasy story (especially a game) is keeping all of those fantasy elements in the game, and not bringing them to the real world. Is it ok for a christian to play Manhunt? YES!!! Even though the player commits violent things in Manhunt----(as long as the player's parents taught them the difference between fantasy and reality) the player does not feel the urge to do things like that in real life-----it is a matter of being mature enugh to KNOW it is fantasy and nothing more. On the other hand though, I am not a fan of Rockstar--I think they put little work into their games and just try to captilize on this kinda publicity----I played State OF Emergency (another game of theirs that was ultra-controversial) and was bored within 30 minutes (same with all my friends--no one's intrest was held even an hour)--and I would play Grand Theft Auto cept I don't like those real-life simulation games---I like things to be more crazy than that. But, I guess I have a question to the board---do you guys think it innocent for a christian to play Unreal or Half Life or any other game out there? Any game has violent images------and I don't think violent games cause violent people. Look at Japan, home of Resident Evil and Silent Hill-------Japan has many violent games aimed at Older audiences, and yet they have one of the lowest crime rates on the planet==why? Because most Japanese gamers are taught to respect the difference between fantasy and reality!!!!!!!!!!

BTW---with our rights being trampled on all the time---it isn't only because ppl are lazy but because they are socially conditioned to think it is the right thing to celebrate rights and then give up those same rights---they think they are honoring their country by giving up their right to speak and also their right to avoid a full body cavity inspection at the airport!

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
quote:

Is it ok for a christian to play Manhunt? YES!!! Even though the player commits violent things in Manhunt

then by the same logic it is ok for christians to watch and fantasize over japanese anime pornography - because its not 'real'

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by klumsy:
then by the same logic it is ok for christians to watch and fantasize over japanese anime pornography - because its not 'real'



actually no, pornography (and not just Japanese porn btw) is created with the idea of 'wanting it to happen in the real world'--------porn is slightly different because it is a person actively trying to make a fantasy real through sexual arouson on a physcial object--that is crossing the line between fantasy and reality------playing Unreal tournament you really don't want those people to die that you are playing agains---and when you play Half Life you really don't have ill will against humanity when you shoot someone in that game. But, when you use porn, you WANT that to happen in the real world---and that is where the line gets thin is when the person WANTS the fantasy to be real----most people can play Unreal and not wish it was real---just respect it as a good story and move on. Same with Manhunt. But porn is not manufactured with that intent, it is directly made to be sold to people who want that fantasy to be real--people who already have a hard time discerning fantasy and reality-------so no following my logic does not make porn ok by any stretch of the imagination.

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
I would agree with Zookey.

I always play violent games. many times, a game will need fighting for me to play it. but it's not that I like to see people get killed. no. I never got in a fight ever, I never hit anyone. I don't want anyone to get hurt.

when it comes to violence, it's not the violence that's really wrong, it's the hate that the real problem. I mean, if you even hate someone, you're guilty of murder in your heart. but, sometimes, killing is necessary, to save people.
and if you can't deverisfy between fantasy and reality... don't play violent games... don't even play games!

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zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
I would like to add to Archangel's comment

If you cannot differnciate between fantasy and reality, don't walk outside your house!! Man I have met so many people like that, one of my friends is into James Bond---(and he is an overweight klunky kid who also thinks he is the Rock)---and he always speeds up in his car when listening to Bond music and one time confided in me 'Wouldn't it be cool if we were being chased by Soviets with AK-47's?' .....and one time, when we were playing Paintball, he jumped sideways through the air, shooting Matrix style, slams on his side and then ppl walk up, shoot him , and walk away--------and yet he has this fantasy like he is a real bad &^&^% but he is kinda strange and frightens many people-----so yeah it is sad (although sometimes funny) when some people get trapped in their fantasies.

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by zookey:
I would like to add to Archangel's comment

If you cannot differnciate between fantasy and reality, don't walk outside your house!! Man I have met so many people like that, one of my friends is into James Bond---(and he is an overweight klunky kid who also thinks he is the Rock)---and he always speeds up in his car when listening to Bond music and one time confided in me 'Wouldn't it be cool if we were being chased by Soviets with AK-47's?' .....and one time, when we were playing Paintball, he jumped sideways through the air, shooting Matrix style, slams on his side and then ppl walk up, shoot him , and walk away--------and yet he has this fantasy like he is a real bad &^&^% but he is kinda strange and frightens many people-----so yeah it is sad (although sometimes funny) when some people get trapped in their fantasies.



What is really sad about that, is that there is somebody out there who listens to James Bond music in their car!?! lol.

But yeh, it's funny in England, about half the male population think they are footballing celebrities like Dave Beckham... copy his hair cut etc etc... tis really funny!

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by D-SIPL:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by zookey:
[b]I would like to add to Archangel's comment

If you cannot differnciate between fantasy and reality, don't walk outside your house!! Man I have met so many people like that, one of my friends is into James Bond---(and he is an overweight klunky kid who also thinks he is the Rock)---and he always speeds up in his car when listening to Bond music and one time confided in me 'Wouldn't it be cool if we were being chased by Soviets with AK-47's?' .....and one time, when we were playing Paintball, he jumped sideways through the air, shooting Matrix style, slams on his side and then ppl walk up, shoot him , and walk away--------and yet he has this fantasy like he is a real bad &^&^% but he is kinda strange and frightens many people-----so yeah it is sad (although sometimes funny) when some people get trapped in their fantasies.



What is really sad about that, is that there is somebody out there who listens to James Bond music in their car!?! lol.

But yeh, it's funny in England, about half the male population think they are footballing celebrities like Dave Beckham... copy his hair cut etc etc... tis really funny!

--D-SIPL

[/B][/QUOTE]

man I bet--same with a lot of guys here too tho-----they think they are hot because they are into sports and most are wusses-------but yeah there is actually one person on the planet who listens to Bond music and wishes to be chased by soviets--and sad thing is his Dad is AirForce and was moved to Germany---so you guys in Europe have to deal with him now---I wuold highly suggest using rocket launchers--that would make him happy lol!! But yeah, the only Bond song I find decent is Die Another Day--which ironically I hated the movie---horrible special effects you could tell it was fake---although I like Tomorrow Never Dies-----but then again I am kinda a journalism buff so I liked the villian to a certain degree (and that is weird he could type with one hand and hold the keyboard with another lol)----but yeah my friend (and his dad) both worship James Bond almost like he was some sorta spy god hehehe

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
what's up with James bond anyways.. k... sure, he always gets the girl...
but it's all about Q!
lol, jk

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zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
what's up with James bond anyways.. k... sure, he always gets the girl...
but it's all about Q!
lol, jk


no lie! Although, didn't that actor die in a car crash or something?

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

BKewl

Member

Posts: 144
From: St. Charles, MO, USA
Registered: 07-10-2002
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:

I always play violent games. many times, a game will need fighting for me to play it. but it's not that I like to see people get killed. no. I never got in a fight ever, I never hit anyone. I don't want anyone to get hurt.


What? Why does a game need fighting for you to play it (most of the time)?

Also, you guys gotta admit James Bond music is pretty good; okay, so I like it: sue me . If you don't like it, you have to admit it's better than the movies themselves (with their plotholes the size of the earth)

zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
What? Why does a game need fighting for you to play it (most of the time)?


because kung fu makes everything nice!!!!!!!!!!!! Yeah, the Die Another Day song was ok---a LOT better than the movie hehe

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
well, it doesn't need it... it's usually so borrrriiinnnng if it doesn't have it. it gives the game speed, action, tenseness(is this a word?), a struggle, etc...
I'm not hurting anybody(in my mind or in real life) so it's fine with me.

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BKewl

Member

Posts: 144
From: St. Charles, MO, USA
Registered: 07-10-2002
Oi, it sounds like some Christian brethren of mine need to be introduced to the adventure genre It'll do all this-(guaranteed!):

-Build patience
-Entertain through story and visuals
-Feature an amazing lack of violence
-Did I mention great stories (usually)??

It even slices, dices, and purees, all in one! Call now and get this amazing item for only...

Oops. Well, anyway, the points still apply

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
point and click adventure? was making a game of that genre... put it on hold tho...
they're fun.. but I usually get annoyed how hard and trivial they make the puzzles. lol

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D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
point and click adventure? was making a game of that genre... put it on hold tho...
they're fun.. but I usually get annoyed how hard and trivial they make the puzzles. lol


Lol

I don't mind violence in games against non-humans. If you would play the game with Jesus sat next to you, then go for it, imo.

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried