it is true that those who are ignorant will be judged lighter than those who knew the truth but yet turned away from it.. just as teachers will be judged more than others according to scripture... but that doesn't mean anything about salvation. .Christ is our only salvation..

being good enough just won't get ya there.. salvation is a free gift (well free for us, it cost God soo much, but he loved us soo much that he did it).. we recieve it by faith.. salvation is only through Christ..

as for peole in other religions who never get the chance to recieve Christ, and people who died before Christ came..
I don't know all the answers
but i trust my God, i know his character that is is a JUST (justice) and loving God, and he will do what is right and just (in His eyes, not in my humanistic viewpoint)..
it may seem unfair for people to go to hell who are 'good' and would have recieved Christ if they had the oppuertunity.. but we don't decide what is fair or not, God does, and i believe that in the above case God would take care of it somehow.. but i can't assume how, as the bible doesn't say.. i just know God's character and trust Him on it, just like what happens to children who die.. and what is the age that if you die before you automatically go to heaven? 1 mnth, 2 years, 7 years, 10 years, 15 years... i dunno... but God knows every mans hearts and internals.. and he is the judge. maybe he will accept all those that he knows hearts seeked Him earnestly and would have come to Christ had they the chance, or maybe they will be casulties of sin and a church that hasn't taken its job seriously sometimes.. i'd like to think the latter, but i can't find anywhere in the bible that says, but again i can find in the bible the nature of God and that i am just a man with a finite mind, but i can trust in the omni-everything God (well not omni-evil )..

also the bible says the the path to heaven is a narrow road and not many will enter it, though many travel the wide highway to hell

yet it also says the those in heaven will be a very large multitude..

God's grace is sufficent..

Karl

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

If you feel you can earn your salvation, I wish you luck. Jesus said otherwise, and He also said He was the only way. You need to remember that judgement is a two way street - if you say someone is saved you also judge them, only you judge them righteous. Jesus exhorted us to judge according to God's Word and not according to our feelings.

I used to agree with this, Superman, but I have to say that Klumzy is correct in that being good is cool, but it's not sufficient for salvation. If it was, we'd have to figure out where the line is drawn to be "good enough" and so on. That would also mean that salvation is based on what the various cultures, societies, etc. would say is good...not what God does.

Christ actually made it simple when he said that there is no other way to the Father except through Him (Jesus). He didn't elaborate and say "unless, of course, you're a good person."

So while I'd *like* to still believe that good people go to heaven, there's just not Biblical support for that. I know that sounds like a case of "if you're not in the club, you're not as good as those who are". I used to think that too. But it's not a case of "not as good", it's a case of "I know I'm not good enough, therefore I admit and accept that I can't make it without Christ" kind of thing. Hope that makes sense.

Oh, and don't worry about your spelling. I could read your post just fine. Some people get a little edgy about that sort of thing. I think it's irrelevant. As being "good" isn't going to get you into heaven, neither will having perfect grammar. Oh well, something to be said for that in 1 Peter 3:15 (NIV):

15 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.

God bless!

-Krylar
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[This message has been edited by Krylar (edited February 12, 2002).]

Hollow darkness laced with the crimson rust tasting blood of humanities own fallings. Tis society, as it drags it's talon bone claws and screaming lies from it's rotten flesh covered skull. Destroying lives, grabbing once living souls and locking them in spiked covered chains. Lost like children in a raging snow storm, they weep when they not know it, for they listen to the lies that society speak and will be eternally lost because of it.

Striving towards the perfection of body is fruitless, for the body rots away as time follows us along this road of life. The people that look beautiful today could be ugly tomorrow, it's the personality that really counts and God loves you and your personality. Yes you might say "but I am not perfect inside, I have so much hate, destruction and darkness inside", God knows that we cannot be perfect, but we can try and strive to make our lives easier by trying our hardest to be focussed on Him.

History is filled with people that have harmed Christianity with their actions, the crusades, the witch huntings, even today "candy-coated life-is-so-wonderful" Christians are making a mess because they're going around smacking people with there Bibles and screaming "repent pagan pig! The Lord is coming soon!". God doesn't want that, people have twisted religion and Christianity so much, I can now say that I don't belong to a religion, I don't believe in religion, and like Jesus, I hate religion. I have a deep relationship with God, I believe what the Bible says and I do what it says, not what other people say. I can tell when other people are being destructive with their words and I ignore them, I pay them no heed because from their lips comes destruction and confusion.

Is time a companion or a reaper in this life? As the clock ticks down upon our lives, we start to wither away back into the dust which we we're created from. It's a sorrow that plagues us continuously along this road of our existence and we don't think about it 90% of the time. As Job says "My soul is weary of my life" (Job 10:1), I wish to be with my Father in Heaven right now, but I know that I must remain on this earth for a while longer. Why bother obsessing over that aspect and depressing yourself? Actually when I think of death and dying, I never think it's a sad thing, I think it's a very beautiful, special thing.

I could really go for some peanut m&ms.

I've been thinking a lot, like I normally do, about life, about the future. I'm sure everyone thinks about this a lot during the course of their life. You have so many options and choices it's overwhelming to a point when you look at on a large scope, which path to take today? Life is filled with hardships which we all have to over come, I'm trying to overcome the three aspects about myself which bog down my life/personality/freedom. I guess you could call these my three prime weaknesses, which I'm aiming to overcome before the end of this year. I've talked to this about with God and my Fiancé and they're going to both help me along with this destroying of my flesh. Actually my Fiancé is going hand-in-hand with me and she is going to start cleaning our her life as well. It's not an easy task, but one which will ultimately help not on ourselves, but also our relationship with God and each other.

SAY NO TO RELIGION!!!

What? No religion? Isn't a belief in God mean a person is religious? You mean there is something other than religion?

Frankly, yes.

God is not religious. Religion is something people made up. Acting or looking a certain way. Doing or not doing certain things and rituals.

History is full of bloody acts and wars in the name of religion. From the Inquisition to Hitler, religion has always played a part in misery and murder in the history of the world.

But hasn't Christianity been a big part of this misery?

Religions calling themselves Christians have, sure. Hitler used religious rhetoric to cause the holocaust to eliminate the Jewish race. The Spanish Inquisition used religious rhetoric to torture and terrorize. There are countless examples of this, yet throughout history there are those who continued to seek real Truth. Some of those were killed because of it in the name of religion.

But there is something more and more people are realizing. And those in history who were killed for it realized it then - the difference is that religion requires you to believe a certain way. God requires you to receive. Believe in religion as opposed to receiving Christ. That's the difference.

If you are seeking and really want to find the truth about life, then you will find it. Religion seeks to make us comfortable, ignorant and oblivious. When we are born physically in this world, we all have an empty void that seeks to be filled. God made a way for us to truly fill that void. That's what the term Christian really means, to have Christ in us.

Wait a second! To be a Christian I would have to believe in Jesus, right?

The bible actually says you must receive Christ into your heart. It refers to that as being "born again" spiritually. An analogy of being born physically. And as far as believing in Jesus, the bible says that satan believes in Jesus, but that doesn't make him a Christian - so why would just believing work for anyone else?

Oh, the Bible, huh? There's a lot of books out there about God. There's even lots of books interpreting the bible. What's the difference in that ? And besides, I've heard a lot of stuff about how the bible says one thing in one place and the opposite in another place.

Yes, there are lots of books out there and people who will tell you what the bible says. One aspect of religion is people who have a certain belief and then go to the bible to find scripture that appears to support what they want to make it say. That is when the bible appears to contradict itself. But it isn't the bible doing the contradiction.

In 2nd Peter 1:20 it says, "Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of the Scripture is of a person's interpretation." You read it for yourself. It speaks to you. The bible is full of stories about love, war, passion, hate, lies, pleasure and everything that happens to people then and now. It also has wisdom, knowledge, truth and the key to life here and beyond.

The bible also says we can have a personal relationship with God. We don't go through a superior person or have to perform certain rituals to achieve this relationship. Being good doesn't work. We can never be completely perfect no matter who we are. In fact, there is nothing we can do as far as acts or rituals to have the Spirit live in us. We simply agree to allow Christ to come into our hearts. When this happens, we begin to really see and understand because our spiritual eyes become open. Then the real fun begins!

It can't be that simple!

But it is that simple. Religion says it is not simple. Religion tells you to be something you're not. But God wants us to be what we really are and Christ empowers us to be just that.

I was raised in a religious atmosphere when I was a kid. Religion never did anything for me and like most people, I wandered around trying this and that but never finding real happiness or satisfaction. I was seeking and finally began to read the Bible for myself. I finally saw the difference between religion and God's plan for me. I finally learned to say no to religion and yes to God. Over time my life has become wonderful because of it. My zits didn't suddenly go away and there were still bad things that would happen sometimes. But because I now had the Spirit of God living in me, I had a source of knowledge and power that helped me to overcome everything and see the best way to go.

Stay Frosty and have a great day!

as i said before, truly what i speak and what all of us speak is nothing but speculation........what i do want to comment on is on each of those remarks referring to jesus being the only way.......the problem is each place where Jesus has said that, he himself has been there.......the people saw him, the people heard his word and therefore if they chose not to believe then they were condemned.........because they HEARD him and SAW him..............my argument lies in the fact that we are all working on faith, and the fact is that God, in his eternal love can't send so many people with truly good hearts to hell on account of not knowing about Jesus............

rememer GOD is GOoD and the dEVIL is EVIL

oh and ummm
PERDUN MUH BAAAD SPELYN:
HUKD UN FONIX WERKD FER MI!!!!!!!!!!!

my argument lies in the fact that we are all working on faith, and the fact is that God, in his eternal love can't send so many people with truly good hearts to hell on account of not knowing about Jesus

Your arguement sounds nice, but you should try the Bible over your own ideas. True Christianity is not blind faith, but based on a physical experience of God. 'truly good hearts' equates to salvation by works however you cut it. The whole point of Jesus death & resurrection is that no-one can be good *enough* to earn salvation.

as i said i don't know how God deals with all these situations..
but i believe Christ is for every country... you say what about the chinese maybe.. i say 1 million chinese people are coming to Christ every month.. i say that more people have come to Christ in the last 5 years that in the rest of history combined..
God is moving, and He is moving in His only way...
and if you want to be part of it, want to be his hands and feet on earth and carry out the great commission, you need to believe in the need of others for Christ.. and that there is no other way..

i went down your thinking path before..
and got into believing in reincarnation (its nice to think, we;ll people will get reincarnated until they have an oppertunity to accept Christ)
very very very very dangerous ground

we live and die once and are judged.. period
Christ is the only way .. period
we don't understand everything but our belif in Christ is in faith, not in our human understanding..

God loves you, God loves the pagan, he loves you both with a passion and equally.. God has a good character and his judgements are perfect and just.

(hope i don't come accross too brash in this post, i've been up to 4am so am very tired today)

God Bless,
Karl

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Karl Prosser
Karl / GODCENTRIC
Klumsy / Surprise ! Productions.
ME / Redeemed by the Living God :)
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz
May God Bless you, he sure does me.

and just because something goes against my beliefs doesnt mean i will ignore it completely and claim it untrue.......u must analyzze all information ur presented with before coming to conclusions, because rash decisions arent good :O)

and anyways.......i myself learned to question everything.....i mean before sophmore year i was an atheist, and then i found this AWESOME youthgroup and now a year later i am a catholic.......on my way to being confirmed.....because although i was born catholic i was only baptized, never did confirmation, reconciliation, or confirmation and doing all three

Hugo

Confirmation is something God does - He confirms His Word with signs following. If you're becoming a Catholic, you're clearly not going to be hearing any good doctrine, so it probably doesn't matter what you choose to believe.

It's not the religion that sanctifies, it's Christ. I grew up partly in the Catholic church and party in the Seventh Day Adventist church. It wasn't easy. The only thing I found is that both had a ton of rituals and they basically despised each other's teachings. I actually was told I was going to hell because I was Catholic by an SDA teacher when I was like 10 years old, and at the time I frankly didn't even know what Catholic or SDA was. On the opposite side of the fence my Catholic, non-immediate, family said that I shouldn't marry "that Seventh Day Adventist woman". Glad I didn't listen.

Hopefully that "we're better than you" attitude has changed, but I rather doubt it.

The one thing I've learned is that Christ is sufficient and that the rituals are simply a way for man to feel self-justified that he is doing something to better his chances. This is not faith in Christ, this is faith in works.

I'm not saying that all Catholics or SDA's or whatever's are non-Christians! I'm just saying that it's easy to get caught up in the realm of rituals, guilt works, etc. and neglect the real salvation point...Christ.

I certainly agree that a constant questioning of whether or not Christ is sufficient is demonstrative of a non-committed faith, but I see no reason not to question the minutia. If anything those discussions, debates, etc. builds our faith more...assuming, of course, that we are debating on non-prideful grounds.

Well, I'm exhausted, so hopefully all of that made some sense

-Krylar

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In Christ,
Joshua

Keep in mind this, though:

...excerpt from James 2, NIV: 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." 19Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-- and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

So, while this doesn't say that you can work your way into Heaven, it does imply that works are a natural response of living faith. Without works, where is your faith really?

Is that what everyone else gets from that?

As demonstrated when Jesus was casting "Legion" (the demons) out of the possessed man and letting them go into the pigs, "Legion" named Jesus as the son of the most high. So, that demonstrates that even the demons believed. But the demons, although they believe, they don't do the will of God.

I guess my point is that if one really believes that Jesus did what He did to sanctify all who believe, how can one not pursue doing the will of God? I'm NOT saying that one always will do the right thing, or that one needs to be perfect, or anything along those lines...but the desire to do the will of God will be very strong. The conviction that we all feel in our hearts and so on. And if we ignore that conviction and instead focus on doing our own will, then what is it that we really believe? Is it just a case of *saying* you believe and thus are sanctified, or is it *knowing* you're sanctified because you believe? If it's the later, then your faith alone demonstrates a submission to His will. I also believe it's only through further submission to His will that a relationship with the Him grows.

Well, that's my 2 cents.

-Krylar

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Victory Infinitum