There will be music and sound by our soundman at White Dove “Bro. Ed” He is a pastor so we have some good backing there. Then we have a lot of cool ideas coming in from our Idea Rat “John”. Also “James” our C++ guy will be joining the team and maybe his brother doing 3D modeling for the characters that will be jumping up and down cheering you on (Or crying that your losing I will be adding to all this with some story line. Then we have “Mike” doing us some Anime stile art. Ops forgot to say that this will be a Multi-Player game for us net people and maybe some IPX stuff.

I’ll post the site up for it as soon as it’s ready. Krylar you are welcome for the Poll ideas. You could ask this in a poll.

Witch is of the most worth?
1 Faith
2 Hope
3 Love

How many places are you a member of?
0-2
3-6
6-10
More then Ten

Ever wish you looked like a Cartoon Character?
Yes
Never
Always

Do you think Dragons are real?
Yes
No
Maybe

Witch one of these can save your soul?
Hitler
Zeus
Jesus
Mother Earth

Do you go to church?
Yes / No

Are you working on a Christian Game Project?
Yes
Did
Why would I
Going to

Well there is another happy list BTW just for the wandering of it… how many here have made a Tetris game of sorts? It seems to be a norm thing for starting programmers to program. That’s an idea Krylar make that into a poll ^_^ Anyways I’m out of here. Ill post more stuff here when there is some to go have a look at. God Bless those of you that are Christians and for them that are not I hope you notes the blessing He gives you.

------------------
Baka Na Monkeys ate my hard drive… The trees told me so.

quote:

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I know I haven’t been on here much but I have bin reading some stuff I was wandering why the big fuss about Christian games being a foolish thing? I will just say I don’t agree with the idea and leave it at that. Anyways this is here to let you all know that a new game is in progress and we should have a demo sometime this month. That all depends on our C++ guy really This will be the first game in many that we are planning on doing. It’s called Gigabliss a part of the Blood Child Project! It will be a sort of RPG/Tetris/Who Thought of This Game I’m hoping to have has many of you people play this as possible.
There will be music and sound by our soundman at White Dove “Bro. Ed” He is a pastor so we have some good backing there. Then we have a lot of cool ideas coming in from our Idea Rat “John”. Also “James” our C++ guy will be joining the team and maybe his brother doing 3D modeling for the characters that will be jumping up and down cheering you on (Or crying that your losing I will be adding to all this with some story line. Then we have “Mike” doing us some Anime stile art. Ops forgot to say that this will be a Multi-Player game for us net people and maybe some IPX stuff.

---

This sounds pretty cool - I'm always up for a puzzle game. When will it be ready ?

quote:

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I’ll post the site up for it as soon as it’s ready. Krylar you are welcome for the Poll ideas. You could ask this in a poll.

---

Witch is of the most worth?
1 Faith
2 Hope
3 Love

Love

How many places are you a member of?
0-2
3-6
6-10
More then Ten

You mean online ? 3-6.

Ever wish you looked like a Cartoon Character?
Yes
Never
Always

Always ;0)

Do you think Dragons are real?
Yes
No
Maybe

Nope.

Witch one of these can save your soul?
Hitler
Zeus
Jesus
Mother Earth

Um... can I think about it ;0)

Do you go to church?
Yes / No

Yup.

Are you working on a Christian Game Project?
Yes
Did
Why would I
Going to

Why would I ? ;0)

quote:

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Well there is another happy list BTW just for the wandering of it… how many here have made a Tetris game of sorts? It seems to be a norm thing for starting programmers to program. That’s an idea Krylar make that into a poll ^_^ Anyways I’m out of here. Ill post more stuff here when there is some to go have a look at. God Bless those of you that are Christians and for them that are not I hope you notes the blessing He gives you.

---

No Tetris here, I started with Asteroids.

God Bless

------------------
Baka Na Monkeys ate my hard drive… The trees told me so.

Which is of the most worth?
1 Faith
2 Hope
3 Love

"And so faith, hope, love abide these three; but the greatest of these is love." I Corinthians 13:13

How many places are you a member of?
0-2
3-6
6-10
More then Ten

3

Ever wish you looked like a Cartoon Character?
Yes
Never
Always

never thought about it

Do you think Dragons are real?
Yes
No
Maybe

Not in this demention ^_^ at least, not anymore

Witch one of these can save your soul?
Hitler
Zeus
Jesus
Mother Earth

Jesus

Do you go to church?
Yes / No

Yes

Are you working on a Christian Game Project?
Yes
Did
Why would I
Going to

Yes

-Veritech aka John the idea rat

------------------
"If you even breathe a word of what you've heard here, I hope Gandalf will turn you into a spotted toad, and fill the garden full of grass-snakes" - "Fellowship of the Ring" by JRR Tolkien (p91)

Thats what all is going on right now.
You peeps be blessed
Azariah

quote:

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Originally posted by Angel:
Well it would seem Satan dosnt like what we are trying to do. We have ran into alot of probs.

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Get used to it, everyday we (TGS) have run into un-logical and un-explainable problems durning the development of our games. Christian games are about 2-4 times harder to make than secular games because of Satan, and it's either kill or be killed. Be strong.

------------------
Mackenzie Ponech
Hardcore Agressive Christian Games, only from Two Guys Software, Rebels with a cause

quote:

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Angel:
Well it would seem Satan dosnt like what we are trying to do. We have ran into alot of probs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get used to it, everyday we (TGS) have run into un-logical and un-explainable problems durning the development of our games. Christian games are about 2-4 times harder to make than secular games because of Satan, and it's either kill or be killed. Be strong.

---

According to the Bible, if you belong to Christ then the Devil is *unable* to defeat the strong man of the house, so how can you blame your coding problems on the devil ?

James says we are drawn away by our own lusts, we are not tempted by God nor are we attacked by Satan. It really concerns me that people buy into this sort of stuff which in effect assumes that our God is either powerless, or does not care.

(edited because my initial, incredulous reaction was probably a little rude)

[This message has been edited by MeanManInOz (edited July 12, 2001).]

You peeps have fun

Azariah

I'm interested to hear from anyone who believes from the Bible that being a Christian means having lots of difficulties because Satan both can and does attack you as a result. If it's in the Bible, I will accept it. Otherwise I would ask why anyone would think it possible that God would save someone and then allow the Devil to attack them. I thought you believed God WANTS you to release Christian games ?

Paul talks about the "sin within" all through Romans 7. This from the NIV:

14: We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
15: I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16: And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
17: As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
18: I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19: For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.
20: Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21: So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

If sin equals Satan, then it's clear to me that Paul is saying that he's constantly attacked by the desire to do sinful (thus Satan-based) things.

I may be off on what you're argument is though. I can also read your argument as Satan attacking you not through the things you do, but rather things happening to you. I would say that Romans 7 still holds for that because a person could do things via the sin-within that affect me, such as cause me physical harm, mental anguish, etc...yes, even attempt to stop my Christian project (no, I'm not writing one). The attempt to stop may be successful on that level and may cause my internal sinful nature to cast doubt and therefore shut it down completely. Is it "right" to have doubt? No. Does it happen? Yep...I've never met a single person who hasn't had some level of doubt.

My 2 cents.

-Krylar
------------------

[This message has been edited by Krylar (edited July 13, 2001).]

I'd like to point out that Job was about the best "Christian" there could be during that time period, yet God allowed Satan to all but destroy him.

Just a thought,
†Caleb†

PS: I will get back to your other arguments about the Holy Spirit and stuff MeanMan, I just haven't had the time to lately. In any case I have been baptized in both water and in the Holy Spirit and can speak in tongues. I'm mearly arguing for the sake of others and because this isn't something that would be good for me to be wrong about.

Krylar:

quote:

---

Paul talks about the "sin within" all through Romans 7. This from the NIV:

14: We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
15: I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
16: And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.
17: As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.
18: I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
19: For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing.
20: Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21: So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

If sin equals Satan, then it's clear to me that Paul is saying that he's constantly attacked by the desire to do sinful (thus Satan-based) things.

---

Well, you're making a jump from what Paul said to what your opinion is. Sin comes from our own carnal nature, our own desire to do our own thing. Satan is called the Prince of the Air or something similar in the scriptures, and the only places I see Satan do anything in the Bible are in Genesis, where he sows the seeds of doubt in someones mind ( which is all I contend he CAN do, and that only to people not looking to Jesus to overcome him ), and Job, where every thing he inflicts on Job is with God's permission. We are God's CHILDREN if we have the Holy Spirit - do we contend that God gives permission for His children to come to harm ? He specifically says in Luke 11 ( from memory ) that He knows better than we how to give good things to His children (yes, talking about the Holy Spirit, but I believe the analogy stands ).

quote:

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I may be off on what you're argument is though. I can also read your argument as Satan attacking you not through the things you do, but rather things happening to you. I would say that Romans 7 still holds for that because a person could do things via the sin-within that affect me, such as cause me physical harm, mental anguish, etc...yes, even attempt to stop my Christian project (no, I'm not writing one). The attempt to stop may be successful on that level and may cause my internal sinful nature to cast doubt and therefore shut it down completely. Is it "right" to have doubt? No. Does it happen? Yep...I've never met a single person who hasn't had some level of doubt.

---

Everyone has some level of doubt from time to time, I guess. But in my experience it is a very rare thing, easily dispelled by recalling the experience of recieving the Holy Spirit. I still maintain that if we are not ourselves walking disorderly then there is nothing the enemy can do to touch us. The Bible ( in Romans I believe ) lists all the things that cannot seperate us from the love of God. The only thing not listed ? Us. We can sperate ourselves from the love of God and take our chances like everyone else in the world. We cannot suffer Satanic attack unless God allows it, and the Bible ALSO says we suffer no temptation except that which is common to man ( we're not under attack, we have the same problems other people do ) but God always makes a way out for us. We are BETTER off - that's the whole point.

Mack:

Oz, so you think that satan is just going to sit on his butt, and do nothing while these Christian games start saving people? Hardely, he's going to try every single last thing for it not even to hit the shelves.

Mack, my opinion of Christian games saving people is on the record, but assuming for a moment they do, if God wants people to be saved are you suggesting Satan is stronger than God so he is even ABLE to stop His work ? If so, were is Anton La Vey when I need him ?

There is just no way that the sacrifice of Christ is insufficient to pay the price for my sins, no way that God is unable to overcome the enemy in my life when His Spirit is within me and I seek to walk in His ways. I know the whole 'spiritual warfare' thing is kinda cool to think of, but the battle is won.

Caleb:

quote:

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I know that the following is kinda weak, but it's all I have time to say, I'll come back with more later...
I'd like to point out that Job was about the best "Christian" there could be during that time period, yet God allowed Satan to all but destroy him.

---

This is probably the best point raised so far. Job lived in a time where the blessing was physical, and he went on to recieve more than he lost. The Bible says the OT is for our example, and I believe the example is clearly that

a/ if we have problems 'all things work together for good to them who love the Lord' and

b/ Satan can only attack us with divine permission. Such permission seems to contradict a lot of NT stuff about God loving us as a father, and all GOOD things coming from Him.

quote:

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PS: I will get back to your other arguments about the Holy Spirit and stuff MeanMan, I just haven't had the time to lately. In any case I have been baptized in both water and in the Holy Spirit and can speak in tongues. I'm mearly arguing for the sake of others and because this isn't something that would be good for me to be wrong about.

---

God Bless
Azariah

That is one of my most favrit chapters in the Bible. I try to live by it every day. Thats the only scriptur I was led to put up. I wanted to say more and put down alot of my own feelings... but I dont think its my place.

You peeps be Blessed
Azariah

The War is one, but we are still fighting because the end isn't here yet, just becase we know that God has won The War, it doesn't mean we should go sit on our butts and do nothing. My calling is Christian games, satan hates me, he hates you, he hates everyone who isn't his and who is God's. Do you really think that satan is just going to sit there, while we go take away people from him? He knows whats going to happen to him, he just wants to drag as many spirits as he can to that lake of fire. I for one, through the power of God, want to grab a couple hundred people from his hands and bring them to Jesus, so they go to heaven. Do you think satan wants that? No. So he's going to do all sorts of nasty things to prevent this from happening.

quote:

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Oz, I didn't say satan was stronger than God, I don't know how you get this stuff.

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Because if he isn't then it follows that he can only attack you if God lets him. The Bible says every GOOD thing comes from above.

quote:

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The War is one, but we are still fighting because the end isn't here yet, just becase we know that God has won The War, it doesn't mean we should go sit on our butts and do nothing.

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Of course not - but we are not fighting the Devil in our lives, but the lives of the unsaved, and all we need do is preach the Gospel. Didn't the demons flee at the approach of Jesus ?

quote:

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My calling is Christian games, satan hates me, he hates you, he hates everyone who isn't his and who is God's.

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You see, the thing is this does not equate to his being able to do anything about it. Refer my original post for pertinent scriptures.

quote:

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Do you really think that satan is just going to sit there, while we go take away people from him?

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He has no choice. His only option is to whisper lies in peoples ears and hope they act on them. He is NOT able to mess with your code. I'd suggest the only Devil who makes programming in DX hard lives in Redmond ;0)

quote:

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He knows whats going to happen to him, he just wants to drag as many spirits as he can to that lake of fire. I for one, through the power of God, want to grab a couple hundred people from his hands and bring them to Jesus, so they go to heaven. Do you think satan wants that? No. So he's going to do all sorts of nasty things to prevent this from happening.

---

Only if

a/ God lets him or
b/ he is stronger than God.

I appreciate the response, but your argument is based on your own thoughts. Please show me in the Bible where Paul talks about the Devil causing his shipwreck, or any other setback he experienced. Like I said - the Bible says we suffer nothing except what is common to man, time and chance happen to us, but we are not going to have a worse time of it than others because we are Christians and so liable for Satanic attack. It makes for a fun time preaching, but it just ain't the case.

People at my work read these posts and now blame every bug they get on the Devil (with much merriment). They can see how illogical it is to suggest that the Devil makes life worse for people who are supposed to have Jesus on their side, I don't understand why you see it differently.

Unless your experience is Biblical, then it's simply a result of how your choose to view the things that happen to you. Again, the Bible indicates that the devil can only touch you if God lets Him, and I doubt ANY father would let someone hurt their child for any reason. I know that while I am a passive person but I would beat hell out of anyone who tried to hurt either of my kids. The Bible says God is a better father than me. I know this to be true.

I need the Bible to tell me He lets satan attack me before I will believe it. You'd need to explain why the Bible says no temptation ( situation ) befalls us except what is common to man in your showing me from the Bible that becoming a Christian is a hard life because we immediately come under constant satanic attack.

The Book of Job. (example of God letting satan harm a man of God)

Ephesians 6: 10-18
Armour of God verues, says to guard yourself against the devils plans/schemes/demons/whatever, now according to you, if satan couldn't hurt us, then why do we need armour and weapons of God to protect us?

Temptation is a form of mental torment.

By personal experiances, I mean satanic attacks done on myself, satanic attacks done on my family, satanic attacks done on my girlfriend, my encounters with demons, my mothers encounters with demons.

quote:

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I don't code.

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Sorry, I was thinking of the original guy who said that christian games take longer to write because of the devil.

quote:

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The Book of Job. (example of God letting satan harm a man of God)

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I've commented on this already - both that the OT is for our example, and that it shows that the devil can only do what God allows him to. Given that God WANTS people saved ( assuming Christian games achieve this ), I don't see why he'd slow their production down. But that is not your comment, it's just the one I was addressing from before.

quote:

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Ephesians 6: 10-18
Armour of God verues, says to guard yourself against the devils plans/schemes/demons/whatever, now according to you, if satan couldn't hurt us, then why do we need armour and weapons of God to protect us?

---

6:13 by taking up the shield14 of faith with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one.

Presumably this is the verse you mean. Faith is the piece of armour that protects us from the devil, because all he can do is ask 'did God really say...', like he did in Genesis. This has been my point all along, if you will listen he will try to tell you stuff, but he can *do* nothing.

quote:

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Temptation is a form of mental torment.

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James says we are tempted by our own desires, so again it comes back to us.

quote:

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By personal experiances, I mean satanic attacks done on myself, satanic attacks done on my family, satanic attacks done on my girlfriend, my encounters with demons, my mothers encounters with demons.

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With all due respect, the example of the Bible is demons fleeing from the presence of Jesus, so I would suggest that

a. you must live in a demon infested area, and
b. you, your family, your girlfriend and your mother are obviously not Christians, for if you were, God would dwell in you, and if He is the strong man of your house, how could a demon overcome Him ?

So what I'm saying is that satan (with small s) can TRY to do all kind of things because he has to. He has to because he knows his time is ending and he wants to take all the souls he can with him.

and btw, satan uses his powers to christians. well why he would use his short time to the ones he already 'has'. Instead he is trying to knock all the christians out so that we cannot save any more souls... He cannot take our souls if we are 'born again' but he can try to prevent us from preachin'.

(may be little confusing but I hope you can get the point out of tihs all...)

----------------------------------------------------------
!!!We have God, we have Jesus, and with Him we will win!!!
----------------------------------------------------------

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MeanMan... Satan cannot do anything to me if God doesn't want, but he (satan) still can try, right? So satan tries to destroy everything we (christians) do and sometimes it seems that his tryings are working (experience speaking here...).

---

According to the Bible, his only recourse to try is to ask God for permission. I can only keep stating that.

quote:

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I don't know exactly why. Maybe because God has let satan do what he can just to show that 'Do NOT mess with ME(God) because I'm still winner and always be!' (in the end satan get's his punishment).
So what I'm saying is that satan (with small s) can TRY to do all kind of things because he has to. He has to because he knows his time is ending and he wants to take all the souls he can with him.

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And according to the Bible all he can do (unless God permits otherwise), is to sow seeds of doubt, but in the end it is we ourselves who draw away from God if we so choose.

quote:

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and btw, satan uses his powers to christians. well why he would use his short time to the ones he already 'has'. Instead he is trying to knock all the christians out so that we cannot save any more souls... He cannot take our souls if we are 'born again' but he can try to prevent us from preachin'

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I can only reiterate ( again ) that in the Bible the devils fled from the presence of Jesus, that unless God permits all he CAN do is sow doubt in those who seek it, unless God, as a Father to every Christian, allows him to hurt us.

quote:

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(may be little confusing but I hope you can get the point out of tihs all...)

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Yes, you are very confused by the doctrines you have been taught and the difference between what satan would LIKE to do, and what his actual position and capability is.

Maybe God wants to change the life of the person creating the game, with my dark past, I don't blame Him, and I'm doing it right now.

The demons fled from Jesus because they knew who He was, and what His power was. When we accept Jesus, we get the power (through Jesus) to cast out demons, that doesn't mean that demons are going to be jumping out as soon as they see a Christian. The Christian doesn't have that power because we still sin (while Jesus did not) which separate us from God (if we don't have sin, and we grow stronger in God, yes, sometimes demons suddenly lash out from people, demanding what the Christian wants with them, but they still stay inside because they say they have the right to that person, to deliver a person from demons, you have to prove that the right is false or make it void, that the demon doesn't have the right to this person and that Jesus does, and you have to defeat and cast out the demon, non-Christians can't be delivered from demons because the demons do have the rights to them because that person hasn't accepted Jesus), and demons can use that to their advantage, plus the demon possessed person has to want to get the demons out, and different things as well. Christians can have demons, but the demons can only come into you when you're a non-Christian, or if you have multi-personalities, and only one personality accepts Jesus, but the others do not.

My family, my girlfriend and myself are Christians, we're all "spiritually sensitive" (discernment), it's a gift from God, which enables us to do several things:

1) We can feel the presence of demons, how many there is, sometimes what they look like, and what they are doing. The ability to feel things that others cannot.

2) Very slight form of mind reading, high forms of emotional reading, slight form of future glimpse.

3) The ability to look into someones eyes, and tell whats inside of them, what emotions are deep inside, if they're possessed, etc.

You don't know anything about me, my life, my personal experiences, or spiritual warfare Oz, so don't make judgements about me, and don't you ever insult my family and my soul mate (girlfriend) again. Understand? I've never gone after your family, I've never gone against your co-workers and I think I've never directly gone after you, even though you've insulted me, my friends, my family, my loved ones and one of my favourite sites. It's not your job to judge, but to inform in a non-destructive manner. Get off your high horse and spend a day or two with me in the battleground of death, come see what I see, come feel what I feel everyday.

What satan cannot do:

1) demons cannot invade the spirit of a Christian (they cannot posses you when you're a Christian)

2) demons cannot force their will upon you but can torment you so much that you can give in if your not strong enough or if you don't cry out to God for help

3) satan cannot take your life

What satan can do:

1) satan can deliver the goods

2) satan can control a Christians thoughts and words

Hebrew word for chastens: paideuo (pahee-dyoo'-o);
to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment):
KJV-- chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach.

Acts 17:29
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
(KJV)

Angel: I believe that many bad things happen as a case of our sin. If we sin God lets things happen to teach us. He loves us, why would he leave us in our sin and not train us? We are His loved Children. ^_^

[This message has been edited by Angel (edited July 16, 2001).]

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Maybe God wants to change the life of the person creating the game, with my dark past, I don't blame Him, and I'm doing it right now.

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How dark anyone's past was is irrelevant. The power of Jesus sacrifice is sufficient for all, and more than that, so there are no 'levels' of sin, only sin.

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The demons fled from Jesus because they knew who He was, and what His power was. When we accept Jesus, we get the power (through Jesus) to cast out demons, that doesn't mean that demons are going to be jumping out as soon as they see a Christian. The Christian doesn't have that power because we still sin (while Jesus did not) which separate us from God (if we don't have sin, and we grow stronger in God, yes, sometimes demons suddenly lash out from people, demanding what the Christian wants with them, but they still stay inside because they say they have the right to that person, to deliver a person from demons, you have to prove that the right is false or make it void, that the demon doesn't have the right to this person and that Jesus does, and you have to defeat and cast out the demon, non-Christians can't be delivered from demons because the demons do have the rights to them because that person hasn't accepted Jesus), and demons can use that to their advantage, plus the demon possessed person has to want to get the demons out, and different things as well.

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Wow - what a lot of stuff here that you've not backed from the Bible. The disciples went around casting out demons before there was such a thing as a Christian, so your point above is clearly wrong.

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Christians can have demons, but the demons can only come into you when you're a non-Christian, or if you have multi-personalities, and only one personality accepts Jesus, but the others do not.

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Wow - more stuff here that I'd like to see the Bible backing up. You're saying when the Holy Spirit comes in, no more demons can come in, but the ones that were there will stay ? Multiple personality is a very rare disorder ( it is totally different to schizophrenia ) and I'd suggest that given that it is a fracturing of the mind, I'd look for such a person to be healed, and suggest a person in such a state of mind would be very difficult to even witness to or pray with. Not impossible ( nothing is for God ) but a very delicate situation.

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My family, my girlfriend and myself are Christians, we're all "spiritually sensitive" (discernment), it's a gift from God, which enables us to do several things:

1) We can feel the presence of demons, how many there is, sometimes what they look like, and what they are doing. The ability to feel things that others cannot.

2) Very slight form of mind reading, high forms of emotional reading, slight form of future glimpse.

3) The ability to look into someones eyes, and tell whats inside of them, what emotions are deep inside, if they're possessed, etc.

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I'm sorry, but I cannot accept this because

a. The Bible does not say Christians have these abilities, and
b. God is not interested in giving us a focus on demons, why would He give you gifts not mentioned in the Bible so you can see and feel them ? The focus is on God, on the freedom that comes with Christ. How are you free if you're looking into everyone's eyes to see if they have a demon ?
c. The Bible tells us to discern the gift of prophecy in 1 Cor 14, and this is what the gift is for - to discern the things of God, not of this world, and certainly not of the enemy, except by exclusion.

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You don't know anything about me, my life, my personal experiences, or spiritual warfare Oz, so don't make judgements about me, and don't you ever insult my family and my soul mate (girlfriend) again. Understand? I've never gone after your family, I've never gone against your co-workers and I think I've never directly gone after you, even though you've insulted me, my friends, my family, my loved ones and one of my favourite sites. It's not your job to judge, but to inform in a non-destructive manner. Get off your high horse and spend a day or two with me in the battleground of death, come see what I see, come feel what I feel everyday.

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1. You posted your opinions regarding what has happened to your family. Memory is subjective, and so is the way you slant the things that happen to you. Given your lack of specific statements I made a general statement that suggested the possibilities under which I felt it possible you'd come to such a view. I did not mean to be personal, you made it personal by drawing on your experiences instead of the Bible. I had two choices - make comment in relation to your friends and family, who you brought in to the picture, or not reply. I mean you and your family no ill, I'm sure they are a lovely bunch of people. If you don't want me to comment regarding their 'experiences', then quote the Bible instead of bringing them up.

2. Spiritual warfare for us means overcoming the world through Christ, not going and fighting demons on Jesus' behalf. Had I not been saved from this sort of doctrine, I guess I'd be totally stunned, as it is I am just sad at how lost it all is, and how you just cannot see that it equates to a lessening of the sacrifice of Jesus and His power in your life to suggest these things.

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What satan cannot do:

1) demons cannot invade the spirit of a Christian (they cannot posses you when you're a Christian)

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Thank goodness. So a demon cannot enter into a Christian.

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2) demons cannot force their will upon you but can torment you so much that you can give in if your not strong enough or if you don't cry out to God for help

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Torment you how, if they are not in you ? The demons in the NT used the body of the person they possessed to do things, they were not poltergeists.

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3) satan cannot take your life

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No, because God won't let him.

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What satan can do:

1) satan can deliver the goods

2) satan can control a Christians thoughts and words

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1/ If you mean provide a way of temptation, then I'd suggest he doesn't need to. The world is full of things that can draw us away, but James says it's not an external influence, but our own lusts that draw us away.

2/ I kind of agree here - if a person chooses to start thinking about things they shouldn't. No-one but you can choose what you decide to think about though.

So we both agree then that satan is not going to cause web servers to go down and mess with the code of people writing Christian games ? Because that was my point in the first place.

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Heb 12:6-7
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He receives."
7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
(NKJ)
Hebrew word for chastens: paideuo (pahee-dyoo'-o);
to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by implication) discipline (by punishment):
KJV-- chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach.

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I believe we are chastened by the Word of God, and by the gifts ( which are always scriptural ). I am chastened by the Holy Spirit inside me when I know I've not done as well as I could, this is also part of the function of communion. I do not believe that this means God sends Satan to give me a spankin'.

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Acts 17:29
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
(KJV)

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Amen, but I'm not sure what point you're making with this ?

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Angel: I believe that many bad things happen as a case of our sin. If we sin God lets things happen to teach us. He loves us, why would he leave us in our sin and not train us? We are His loved Children. ^_^

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It is a common misconception that 'God sends bad things to happen so we will learn, praise the Lord'. Instead the Bible says that we will have no more or less bad things happen than people who are not saved, yet God always provides a way of escape. Personal example - my first wife, who witnessed to me, went on to have sex with my best friend ( after a period of spiritual decline where she would not pray, hardly attended meetings, etc. ). Was this the devil out to get me ? No, it was a sister in Christ losing her vision and being drawn in to the world. But I coped with it amazingly well, which I attribute entirely to my trust in God through the situation. I doubt He did it because He wanted to teach me something, and He didn't want my wife to be saved anymore. These things happen, God provides strength.

Much confusion about this issue exists because of the use of the word possession. The term doesn't appear in the original Greek language of the New Testament. Bible scholars say those who translated the King James edition added this word in order to classify varying degree's of demonic control. More correctly, the words translated "possession" should simply be rendered "demonized" this is, under the influence of a demon. Attempting to be verbally precise about such a supernatural phenomenon is pointless. You can't take something enshrouded in mystical context and reduce it to a paradigm of human language. That's why we must cautiously use terms associated with demons.

By possession I mean that the spirit is internalized and claims certain legal rights to invade the persons body. Demonic "possession" never means a Christians regenerated spirit has been invaded or that the demon owns the human being. It means that his or her soul or body is influenced by a demon. The demon can manifest through the host's faculties-this is, see with the eyes, speak through the vocal cords, and even subject the person to a trance state of mental oblivion. Deliverance comes when the demon inside is cast outside.

What about those instances in which a demon manifests in a Christian? In most cases the demon entered before the believer's conversion to Christianity, and the evil spirit continued to control some part of the person's life because the specific occult sin was never renounced. The demon claims squatter's rights.

The metaphor of what happens when territory is conquered in a war applies here. Even though the conflict may be officially ended, enemy snipers refuse to surrender, so they must be hunted down. Their right to remain may be technically voided since the territory is under new control, but that doesn't mean they leave automatically or give up easily. An offense must be mounted to enforce the terms of victory. The exorcist must diligently pursue every avenue of deliverance to be certain that every demonic influence has been conquered.

Can demons physically afflict a Christian?
To answer the question of whether a Christian can be physically afflicted, we must first explore the means by which demons influence Christians.

Do Christians sin? Of course. First John 1:8-9 says we do. We cannot continue to abide in sin because of the indwelling nature of Christian. Note, however, that in Ephesians 4:23 Christians are admonished to "be renewed in the spirit of your mind." If the mind of the Christian need's renewal, then it stands to reason that when our minds are not renewed, they may be, to some degree, under control of the ungodly forces.

"Present your bodies a living sacrifice" we read in Romans 12:1. This means our bodies may not be completely sacrificed to God, and could therefore be influenced by satan. The lack of spiritually in the life of a Christian doesn't necessarily mean he or she is possessed. But it does mean that some part of the Christian nature is open to evil forces.

In Luke 13:16, Christ cast a demon out of a "daughter of Abraham". It is true she wasn't living under the covenant of grace this side of the cross, but as an Old Testament devotee of God she was spiritually protected by the best that God could offer that side of Calvary. Yet a spirit of physical infirmity demonized her.

In fact, the first demon that Jesus cast out came from an apparently devout Jew in the synagogue of the Sabbath. Christ's first exorcism was in a church! That man in Luke 4:33-35 was certainly "possessed" because the demon spoke through his body. Christ told the unclean spirit to "come out of him" (v. 35)

Can satan control a Christians thoughts and words?
Let me explain how satan can also control the thoughts and speech of a Christian. In Matthew, chapter 16, Jesus had just concluded His explanation to His disciples on the true nature of His earthly mission-that He must suffer and die (v.21). Peter immediately spoke up in an effort to dissuade Christ from going to the cross: "Far be it from You, Lord, this shall not happen to you!" (v.22)

The response of Christ was abrupt and stern. "Get behind Me, satan!" Jesus said to Peter (v.23). I'm not going to suggest that Peter was demon possessed. I am proposing that Peter, while standing in the presence of Christ, was sufficiently influenced that he literally spoke the words satan wanted him to say. Even more astounding is the fact that earlier in the verse 16 of that chapter, Peter had given the confessional statement of faith on which Christ said He would build His church!

In Acts, chapter 5, Ananias and Sapphria, members of the early church, lied to the apostle Peter. They had sold some possessions to give to the church, then has second thoughts and conspired to keep back a portion for themselves. When Peter asked them what amount they has received for the sale, Ananias and Sapphria lied. What was the source of that lie? The apostle Peter said "satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit" (v.3). In judgement, God struck them dead. If we accept the assumption that Ananias and Sapphira experience the new birth in Christ, then how can we explain away the fact that their hearts were filled by satan to such an extent, they were capable of committing a sin worthy of such abrupt and severe divine judgement?

Satan can, in some instances, take over a Christians mind and speak through his lips. Demons are in certain instances able to place Christians in a trance state so that the unclean spirit control psychomotor functions and conscious mental process.

If satan can control our speech when we are disobedient and fill our hearts with evil when we are rebellious, he may be able to do a lot more to Christians than we would like to admit. What scriptural lessons can we learn from this startling information?

A Christian can be born again and have spiritual victory over the original Adamic sin that eternally separates mankind from God and skill have betting sins (Heb. 12:1)-uncontrolled thoughts, resentment, anger, and bitterness. Salvation must not be confused with sanctification. The Holy Spirit's continuing work of grace is a progressive act of God's desire to draw us closer to Him.

Those who, yet saved, resist this scriptural plea (1 Thess. 4:3) may find they have harbored demonic pockets of activity from their pre-conversion lives. This messages needs a greater emphasis in our churches so that we may set free and of our brothers and sisters in Christ who are suffering the "hangover" of satans influence from their former lives on sin.

As kindly as I can say it, those who underestimate what Christians can suffer at the hand of satan are doing a disservice to the body of Christ. They are consigning sincere Christians to a life of continued demonic influence and causing needless suffering in the lives of those whom the Lord would set free.

Let no one misunderstand me. A Christian cannot be demonized if by "possession" you mean "ownership". The child of God is owned by the Lord. But I will testify that a Christian can be severely influenced by demons and even be inhabited by them. I will also do all that I can in Jesus name to see that those who are "heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8:17) will experience the hope of freedom from demonic bondage.

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How dark anyone's past was is irrelevant. The power of Jesus sacrifice is sufficient for all, and more than that, so there are no 'levels' of sin, only sin.
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I'm getting over my past, dealing with it, some things still remain of it, which I'm getting rid of. That's what I mean.

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satan can deliver the goods
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satan can give you money, power, fame, anything you want, as long as you fully give your life to him. Of course you get screwed over when you die (if you don't accept Jesus into your life, remember, you can repent and turn to Jesus at any time, whatever you have done, it can be forgiven) and get tortured for eternity, but that's the costs.

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The Bible does not say Christians have these abilities
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Just because the Bible doesn't say some of the abilities me and my family has, doesn't mean it's not true or it's not from God. It's God given, not all Christians have it, but I know other Christians who have it as well. Doesn't mean your not special, we're all equal in God's eyes, and you all have your own special thing from God. I also don't go around preaching about it either, this is the first time I mentioned it on CCN, and the 5th time I've mentioned it at all to anyone. I also don't abuse my gift's.

God is interested in Christians casting out demons, we're His warriors, are we not? the disciples cast out demons, and they we're Christians, Paul and his followers cast out demons, and they we're Christians, Christians from the start of the church to this day have been casting out demons. The last part of the book of Mark, Jesus says to make disciples/believers/Christians of people of all nations and to cast out demons. If satan is on the war path on our land, and his demons are ransacking our lives and the lives of our loved ones and the people around us, then why not re-claim it in the name of Jesus, free that person and ourselves? If your bent on destroying any mortal human who dares try to harm your children, then why not be bent on destroying the spiritual demons who are influencing your children and depending if your children are Christians or not.....demonizing them.

To answer your question, lets say your working for a Christian company, who's building an important project that can save hundreds of people, satan doesn't want this to happen, so he causes something to happen in your life that it bothers you so much, that you do crappy at your coding for several days, causing delays, causing more headaches, which equals more stress, which equals more delays because you do even worse on your coding because of the stress, etc

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Can a Christian have a demon?
I have since learned the simple truth that when you belong to God, what satan cannot do is invade your spirit. The moment a person is born into the king of God by faith in Christ (Eph. 2:8-9), the spirit is eternally reborn and belongs to God. Jesus declared in John 10:28 that no one has the power to "snatch" us out of God's hand.

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I couldn't agree more.

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However, man is a tripartite being (1 Thess. 5:23), and there are aspects of the human condition that satan can afflict. While he is prohibited from touching the spirit of God's saints, nothing prevents him from tormenting the body and soul-if the disobedient conduct of a Christian allows him to do so.

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In other words, if we choose to do the wrong thing, we will be in trouble ? I agree with this - the wages of sin is death and the law of the Lord is perfect, so it stands to reason that you'll have a better time of it when you do things God's way.

5:23 Now may the God of peace himself make you completely holy and may your spirit and soul and body be kept entirely blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 5:24 He who calls you is trustworthy, and he will in fact do this

I disgaree however that this shows that 2/3 of our beings can be possessed or influenced by demons, because 'He ho calls you is trustworthy and will do this'.

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By possession I mean that the spirit is internalized and claims certain legal rights to invade the persons body. Demonic "possession" never means a Christians regenerated spirit has been invaded or that the demon owns the human being. It means that his or her soul or body is influenced by a demon. The demon can manifest through the host's faculties-this is, see with the eyes, speak through the vocal cords, and even subject the person to a trance state of mental oblivion. Deliverance comes when the demon inside is cast outside.

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So there's a demon court ? How can anything have rights over us if we are Christ's ?

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What about those instances in which a demon manifests in a Christian? In most cases the demon entered before the believer's conversion to Christianity, and the evil spirit continued to control some part of the person's life because the specific occult sin was never renounced. The demon claims squatter's rights.

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More like the demon excuse is used by people not wanting to let go of their old life. I have seen this in my own family, my father behaves abominally at times and just shrugs it off as the devil in his life through my mothers unbelief.

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The metaphor of what happens when territory is conquered in a war applies here. Even though the conflict may be officially ended, enemy snipers refuse to surrender, so they must be hunted down. Their right to remain may be technically voided since the territory is under new control, but that doesn't mean they leave automatically or give up easily. An offense must be mounted to enforce the terms of victory. The exorcist must diligently pursue every avenue of deliverance to be certain that every demonic influence has been conquered.

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It depends on the degree to which the victorious army won, if they had the resources to clean up the area, or only a tenuous hold on the field of battle.

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Can demons physically afflict a Christian?
To answer the question of whether a Christian can be physically afflicted, we must first explore the means by which demons influence Christians.

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You've almost assumed a 'yes' answer here.

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Do Christians sin? Of course. First John 1:8-9 says we do. We cannot continue to abide in sin because of the indwelling nature of Christian. Note, however, that in Ephesians 4:23 Christians are admonished to "be renewed in the spirit of your mind." If the mind of the Christian need's renewal, then it stands to reason that when our minds are not renewed, they may be, to some degree, under control of the ungodly forces.

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Reverse logic can prove anything. We are renewed from our own thinking, not demonic attack.

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"Present your bodies a living sacrifice" we read in Romans 12:1. This means our bodies may not be completely sacrificed to God, and could therefore be influenced by satan. The lack of spiritually in the life of a Christian doesn't necessarily mean he or she is possessed. But it does mean that some part of the Christian nature is open to evil forces.

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The whole of our nature is open to doing wrong, drawn away by our own lusts. ( I believe this verse in James is a central point to all of this )

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In Luke 13:16, Christ cast a demon out of a "daughter of Abraham". It is true she wasn't living under the covenant of grace this side of the cross, but as an Old Testament devotee of God she was spiritually protected by the best that God could offer that side of Calvary. Yet a spirit of physical infirmity demonized her.

In fact, the first demon that Jesus cast out came from an apparently devout Jew in the synagogue of the Sabbath. Christ's first exorcism was in a church! That man in Luke 4:33-35 was certainly "possessed" because the demon spoke through his body. Christ told the unclean spirit to "come out of him" (v. 35)

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Yes, you are right. None of these events occured to people who were Christians.

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Can satan control a Christians thoughts and words?
Let me explain how satan can also control the thoughts and speech of a Christian. In Matthew, chapter 16, Jesus had just concluded His explanation to His disciples on the true nature of His earthly mission-that He must suffer and die (v.21). Peter immediately spoke up in an effort to dissuade Christ from going to the cross: "Far be it from You, Lord, this shall not happen to you!" (v.22)

The response of Christ was abrupt and stern. "Get behind Me, satan!" Jesus said to Peter (v.23). I'm not going to suggest that Peter was demon possessed. I am proposing that Peter, while standing in the presence of Christ, was sufficiently influenced that he literally spoke the words satan wanted him to say. Even more astounding is the fact that earlier in the verse 16 of that chapter, Peter had given the confessional statement of faith on which Christ said He would build His church!

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Jesus point was that Peter was thinking naturally, and therefore, as you say, said what the Devil would have said. And this is the whole point. It comes down to people thinking naturally.

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In Acts, chapter 5, Ananias and Sapphria, members of the early church, lied to the apostle Peter. They had sold some possessions to give to the church, then has second thoughts and conspired to keep back a portion for themselves. When Peter asked them what amount they has received for the sale, Ananias and Sapphria lied. What was the source of that lie? The apostle Peter said "satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit" (v.3). In judgement, God struck them dead. If we accept the assumption that Ananias and Sapphira experience the new birth in Christ, then how can we explain away the fact that their hearts were filled by satan to such an extent, they were capable of committing a sin worthy of such abrupt and severe divine judgement?

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Their hearts were filled with greed, an overdesire to profit from the situation. They were 'drawn away by their own lusts and enticed'. The Bible does not say their hearts were 'filled with satan', you do. The difference is probably semantic, except that I've seen it used as a reason not to curb and control ones actions.

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Satan can, in some instances, take over a Christians mind and speak through his lips. Demons are in certain instances able to place Christians in a trance state so that the unclean spirit control psychomotor functions and conscious mental process.

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Bollocks.

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If satan can control our speech when we are disobedient and fill our hearts with evil when we are rebellious, he may be able to do a lot more to Christians than we would like to admit. What scriptural lessons can we learn from this startling information?

A Christian can be born again and have spiritual victory over the original Adamic sin that eternally separates mankind from God and skill have betting sins (Heb. 12:1)-uncontrolled thoughts, resentment, anger, and bitterness. Salvation must not be confused with sanctification. The Holy Spirit's continuing work of grace is a progressive act of God's desire to draw us closer to Him.

Those who, yet saved, resist this scriptural plea (1 Thess. 4:3) may find they have harbored demonic pockets of activity from their pre-conversion lives. This messages needs a greater emphasis in our churches so that we may set free and of our brothers and sisters in Christ who are suffering the "hangover" of satans influence from their former lives on sin.

As kindly as I can say it, those who underestimate what Christians can suffer at the hand of satan are doing a disservice to the body of Christ. They are consigning sincere Christians to a life of continued demonic influence and causing needless suffering in the lives of those whom the Lord would set free.

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As kindly as I can say it, people who choose to talk about demonic influence istead of talking about taking responsibility for our own actions do the church a huge disservice, when they should be talking about the power of God to overcome our own natural minds.

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Let no one misunderstand me. A Christian cannot be demonized if by "possession" you mean "ownership". The child of God is owned by the Lord. But I will testify that a Christian can be severely influenced by demons and even be inhabited by them. I will also do all that I can in Jesus name to see that those who are "heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8:17) will experience the hope of freedom from demonic bondage.

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Your testimony is not scriptural as far as I can see.

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How dark anyone's past was is irrelevant. The power of Jesus sacrifice is sufficient for all, and more than that, so there are no 'levels' of sin, only sin.
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I'm getting over my past, dealing with it, some things still remain of it, which I'm getting rid of. That's what I mean.

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That's fair enough, it sometimes takes a short while for people to overcome aspects of their pasts.

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satan can deliver the goods
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satan can give you money, power, fame, anything you want, as long as you fully give your life to him. Of course you get screwed over when you die (if you don't accept Jesus into your life, remember, you can repent and turn to Jesus at any time, whatever you have done, it can be forgiven) and get tortured for eternity, but that's the costs.

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I'm sorry, but I dispute this. You're saying rich, powerful people have taken part in some satanic ceremony ? Next you'll tell me all rock bands are in the Illuminati.

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The Bible does not say Christians have these abilities
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Just because the Bible doesn't say some of the abilities me and my family has, doesn't mean it's not true or it's not from God. It's God given, not all Christians have it, but I know other Christians who have it as well. Doesn't mean your not special, we're all equal in God's eyes, and you all have your own special thing from God. I also don't go around preaching about it either, this is the first time I mentioned it on CCN, and the 5th time I've mentioned it at all to anyone. I also don't abuse my gift's.

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I appreciate you're being circumspect about your percieved gift, I still find it in conflict with scripture that you have it.

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God is interested in Christians casting out demons, we're His warriors, are we not? the disciples cast out demons, and they we're Christians, Paul and his followers cast out demons, and they we're Christians, Christians from the start of the church to this day have been casting out demons. The last part of the book of Mark, Jesus says to make disciples/believers/Christians of people of all nations and to cast out demons.

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The two are one. The first thing that happens when we make someone a disciple is that demons are done away with, the second is that they speak in tongues ( by a narrow margin ) and then the protection of God is there, making sure that the end is always better than the beginning, and that all things work together for good for them who love Him.

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If satan is on the war path on our land, and his demons are ransacking our lives and the lives of our loved ones and the people around us, then why not re-claim it in the name of Jesus, free that person and ourselves? If your bent on destroying any mortal human who dares try to harm your children, then why not be bent on destroying the spiritual demons who are influencing your children and depending if your children are Christians or not.....demonizing them.

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The key word in the first question is 'if' ? I'd think my ignorance on this issue would make me a prime target if you were right, and yet my life absolutely rocks, as do the lives of my loved ones.

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To answer your question, lets say your working for a Christian company, who's building an important project that can save hundreds of people, satan doesn't want this to happen, so he causes something to happen in your life that it bothers you so much, that you do crappy at your coding for several days, causing delays, causing more headaches, which equals more stress, which equals more delays because you do even worse on your coding because of the stress, etc

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Well, this is different from the claims being made by others ( of code that should work but doesn't due to the devil ). I refer again to the Bible stating that no temptation befalls us except what is common to man ( time and chance happen to us all ), but God always provides a way out. In the book of Job, every single thing satan did to Job or those around him required permission from God. Jesus referred to people who died when a tower fell on them and said it had nothing to do with their being sinners or anything like that. In other words, this stuff just happens. The point was that because it could happen to anyone, everyone should make sure they are right before God.

Now may the God of peace himself make you "completely" holy and may your spirit and soul and body be kept "entirely" blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice how it uses the words completely and entirely, if man wasn't a tripartite being, why would it say those words, it would only say "make yourself and your spirit/soul holy".

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So there's a demon court ? How can anything have rights over us if we are Christ's ?
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So that's where lawyers come from. LOL, j/k, a demons rights to have your body, they need a way into your body (you sin, that's a legal right to enter your body), and they can use that as a legal right, it's a law in the spiritual realm, if you sin, the gate to your soul is opened to demonization. Also, demons can only demonize you when you're a non-Christians. Some demons flee as soon as you accept Christ, other do not, you want a way to torment demons inside of you? (if you have any) get into God, sing praises, pray, worship, do all that good stuff, they hate it and it causes them pain, sometimes they even bail out because they can't take it anymore.

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More like the demon excuse is used by people not wanting to let go of their old life. I have seen this in my own family, my father behaves abominally at times and just shrugs it off as the devil in his life through my mothers unbelief.
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What I mean is that if you're a Christian, and you have a demon inside of you, that demon can still manifest in you and do various things.

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Reverse logic can prove anything. We are renewed from our own thinking, not demonic attack.
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Note what I said:

they "may" be, to "some" degree, under control of the ungodly forces. Also, I didn't say that we are renewed from demonic attack.

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The whole of our nature is open to doing wrong, drawn away by our own lusts. ( I believe this verse in James is a central point to all of this )
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Exactly, and thats how we can be opened to attacks of temptation.

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Yes, you are right. None of these events occured to people who were Christians.
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However they we're devote attenders of the temples of God and the such, this is before Christianity was created, so God must have had some protection in mind to protect His chosen people from satan.

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Jesus point was that Peter was thinking naturally, and therefore, as you say, said what the Devil would have said. And this is the whole point. It comes down to people thinking naturally.
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I think Jesus would have been more direct if that was so, more like He would have said "Peter, don't speak like the enemy" or something like that, instead, he's direct in saying "get behind me satan" not "peter get behind me" or "peter, don't speak like the enemy". He never said peter, He said satan.

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Their hearts were filled with greed, an over desire to profit from the situation. They were 'drawn away by their own lusts and enticed'. The Bible does not say their hearts were 'filled with satan', you do. The difference is probably semantic, except that I've seen it used as a reason not to curb and control ones actions.
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Are not one's lusts something from satan? did not lust, greed, etc. form from satan? so if they did do that, we're they not filled with satan, or rather, satan's doings? Also, I have a pile of Bible's here (different translations) and they all say the same thing "filled with satan".

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Bollocks.
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Whatever you believe, I've experienced it.

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As kindly as I can say it, people who choose to talk about demonic influence istead of talking about taking responsibility for our own actions do the church a huge disservice, when they should be talking about the power of God to overcome our own natural minds.
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I'm not talking about blaming everything on demons and satan, I take responsibility, I made the choice to commit a sin(s), however sins spawn from satan. To overcome satan, you use many things, purifying yourself (as you mention: the power of God to overcome our own natural minds), and delivering yourself and others from demons who may have demonized you before you we're a Christian. In a lot of church's that I've been to, it's almost bloody well banned to say satan or demon.

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I'm sorry, but I dispute this. You're saying rich, powerful people have taken part in some satanic ceremony ? Next you'll tell me all rock bands are in the Illuminati.
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Some yes, others no.

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The key word in the first question is 'if' ? I'd think my ignorance on this issue would make me a prime target if you were right, and yet my life absolutely rocks, as do the lives of my loved ones.
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You're a Christian, you got Jesus, the best body guard in the world, protecting you from demons. If your loved ones are non-Christian, they're lucky, but they're still open to demonization.

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Now may the God of peace himself make you "completely" holy and may your spirit and soul and body be kept "entirely" blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice how it uses the words completely and entirely, if man wasn't a tripartite being, why would it say those words, it would only say "make yourself and your spirit/soul holy".

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Completely could just mean entirely, it doesn't necessarily mean 'all your different bits'. In any case, this does not disprove my point, which is more in the next verse.

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So that's where lawyers come from. LOL, j/k, a demons rights to have your body, they need a way into your body (you sin, that's a legal right to enter your body), and they can use that as a legal right, it's a law in the spiritual realm, if you sin, the gate to your soul is opened to demonization.

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So demons don't cause you to sin, they come in when you do ? Where do I get a copy of this legal document so I understand how it works ? Does the Bible mention it ?

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Also, demons can only demonize you when you're a non-Christians. Some demons flee as soon as you accept Christ, other do not, you want a way to torment demons inside of you? (if you have any) get into God, sing praises, pray, worship, do all that good stuff, they hate it and it causes them pain, sometimes they even bail out because they can't take it anymore.

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Sometimes ? I'm sorry but this sounds like comic book stuff to me, unless the Bible supports it. Show me an example of demons being cast out of Christians ( post Acts 2 ) or Paul even mentioning the possiblity. I'll obviously accept John or Peter as well, any book post Acts 2.

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More like the demon excuse is used by people not wanting to let go of their old life. I have seen this in my own family, my father behaves abominally at times and just shrugs it off as the devil in his life through my mothers unbelief.
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What I mean is that if you're a Christian, and you have a demon inside of you, that demon can still manifest in you and do various things.

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If you have a demon, you're not a Christian, unless satan is able to overcome God, the strong man of your house. Nothing you have posted causes me to stop believing this to be true from the scriptures.

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The whole of our nature is open to doing wrong, drawn away by our own lusts. ( I believe this verse in James is a central point to all of this )
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Exactly, and thats how we can be opened to attacks of temptation.

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Which come from our own desires, James says exactly that.

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Yes, you are right. None of these events occured to people who were Christians.
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However they we're devote attenders of the temples of God and the such, this is before Christianity was created, so God must have had some protection in mind to protect His chosen people from satan.

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Why must He ? Why must it be the same for us today ?

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Jesus point was that Peter was thinking naturally, and therefore, as you say, said what the Devil would have said. And this is the whole point. It comes down to people thinking naturally.
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I think Jesus would have been more direct if that was so, more like He would have said "Peter, don't speak like the enemy" or something like that, instead, he's direct in saying "get behind me satan" not "peter get behind me" or "peter, don't speak like the enemy". He never said peter, He said satan.

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Yet you also stopped short of suggesting Peter was possessed.

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Their hearts were filled with greed, an over desire to profit from the situation. They were 'drawn away by their own lusts and enticed'. The Bible does not say their hearts were 'filled with satan', you do. The difference is probably semantic, except that I've seen it used as a reason not to curb and control ones actions.
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Are not one's lusts something from satan? did not lust, greed, etc. form from satan? so if they did do that, we're they not filled with satan, or rather, satan's doings? Also, I have a pile of Bible's here (different translations) and they all say the same thing "filled with satan".

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If you want to draw that fine a line, the difference is semantic. The easy way is not to focus on these things, but on the works of God. Then who cares where wrong comes from, if you simply shun it ???

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Bollocks.
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Whatever you believe, I've experienced it.

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As I keep saying, experience is subjective. Memory changes with time. The Bible is the only reliable source as far as this is concerned.

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As kindly as I can say it, people who choose to talk about demonic influence istead of talking about taking responsibility for our own actions do the church a huge disservice, when they should be talking about the power of God to overcome our own natural minds.
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I'm not talking about blaming everything on demons and satan, I take responsibility, I made the choice to commit a sin(s), however sins spawn from satan. To overcome satan, you use many things, purifying yourself (as you mention: the power of God to overcome our own natural minds), and delivering yourself and others from demons who may have demonized you before you we're a Christian. In a lot of church's that I've been to, it's almost bloody well banned to say satan or demon.

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So it should be - I've been to churches were it seems like it's banned to say Jesus, for talking of the devil. The answer is prayer in the Spirit, putting on the armour of God, not talking about the devil all the time.

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I'm sorry, but I dispute this. You're saying rich, powerful people have taken part in some satanic ceremony ? Next you'll tell me all rock bands are in the Illuminati.
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Some yes, others no.

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Probably plenty of plumbers think they are as well. It's all garbage.

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The key word in the first question is 'if' ? I'd think my ignorance on this issue would make me a prime target if you were right, and yet my life absolutely rocks, as do the lives of my loved ones.
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You're a Christian, you got Jesus, the best body guard in the world, protecting you from demons.

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I'm pleased you say so, because from your other comments I feel you've made a turnaround and are promoting my point instead of yours.

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If your loved ones are non-Christian, they're lucky, but they're still open to demonization.

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The ones not filled with the Holy Spirit and not my children do not do so well, but I don't believe they are possessed, just miserable. Either way, it is irrelevant to my core assertion, and either way, they would be happy if they accepted the Gospel.

My points are simple:

1) I believe a human is a tripartite being, our bodies are able to hold both good and evil, why do I believe? Because I'm a Christian, I had a generational curse and a demon, and it was delivered from me through God. I've been a Christian since I was nine, and the demon manifested several times (and I'm not talking two or three times, more like every day) in my early and later teen years, putting me in a trance like state, causing me to do some things that I rather forget, and yet allowing me to see what was going on so I would be mentally tormented after the demon finished, I couldn't resist because I was too weak and relied on myself more than God (that was my mistake). How did the demon enter? Rights through the generational curse. After I realized my mistake, I got more into God, kicked the demon out, broke the curse, and basically restarted my life. Show me a verse where it says if you have a demon your not a Christian.

2) Spiritual warfare isn't greatly explained in the Bible, I've done all of my research off of the little sections in the Bible and also from other pastor's works (books, online articles, etc.), the pastor's research doesn't conflict with the Bible, and it gives ways to deliver yourself from temptation, addictions, etc. through the power of Jesus. This is what helped me kick out the demon and reclaim my life in the name of Jesus. Is that so wrong?

3) If you're not a Christian, then you don't have God, then you're not protected from satan and you're open to demonization.

4) Everything not of God, must come from satan. Temptations, sins, flesh (no I don't mean mortal skin and bones), etc. all come from satan. If you're a Christian, and you sin, isn't your temple (mind) being housed to both good and evil? You're doing both.

To answer your questions:

1) Demons can only enter into you when you're not a Christian and you sin, when they enter into your soul (which is different from your spirit) they use that sin to claim your soul, and then they start doing whatever they want to do. When you become a Christian, God claims your spirit, satan can't touch it, but satan can touch your soul. So you have God in your spirit (house), and a demon in your soul. The soul is the battleground in you between good and evil, where satan whispers his lies, temptations, etc. and you battle with the Word/Power of God. Like I said before, the demon can house itself in the soul, but you don't need a demon in order to be in conflict with satan.

2) God is our father, He need's to protect us from the enemy, what Father doesn't protect His children? When we become Christians, we're given the stuff to protect ourselves also. So we got God protecting you, and also you with the power of God, protecting you, and able to fight off evil (with the power of God, of course). Before Christianity started, God must have had some sort of protection plan going on to protect His children from satan. It only seems logical for the father to protect his kids.

3) I never said Peter was possessed, I in fact made it clear: "I'm not going to suggest that Peter was demon possessed."