World Views and Politics

Coding For The Future – Kirk

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Carefully consider these projects:

1) Save a town, save the world
This game should present the adventure of converting any town into a Christian town. Starting with preaching to 12 who are taught the New Pentateuch (Mt, Mk, Lk, Jn, and Rv which contain most of Jesus' recorded words) for 3.5 years where they learn to preach the gospel of the kingdom in Mt. 10:7-8 and graduate sent as overcomers to repeat each to their own 12. After repeating 10 cycles the world is converted to Christian.

Significant challenges include converting all kinds of people from the worldly atheists, liberal Christians, divided and prostituted denominational Christians, and more. A later strategy when fewer natural converts are available could include keeping a record of a potential convert's friends and sending a lot of different people to them as well as the stubborn ones.

Now prayerfully consider -- would writing such a computer game be mere Charlatanism compared to doing it in reality or would a game help it to actually happen around this world of modern Pharisees and modern Gentiles?

2) Robots for every household
This simulation would show humanoid robots adapting to grow food, deliver water, fix buildings, make bell-jar integrated circuits, educate, and entertain people from cradle to Ph.D. in home into the best Christian culture possible thus eliminating world hunger, poverty, illiteracy, crime, terrorism, and war via cultural assimilation. People would both be educated and freed from mundane wage slavery enabling them to volunteer to work on projects robots can't including personal spiritual growth toward the absolutely perfect human, Jesus Christ.

Some people refer back to Old Testament demands to work by the sweat of one's brow (which can be done in front of a keyboard when it's hot) but fail to appreciate that people tend to be more happy working on whatever they choose in cooperation with God instead of whatever a possibly secular slave driver may order.

3) Either or both of the above projects can be enhanced and sped up with the help of world politics. For example, as they are strategies which can overcome terrorist religions, world peace organizations should be interested as should every nation's state department, underfunded defense departments, homeland security departments and more. If liberals have hobbled laws to prevent the government from preaching healthy religion to its people, the nations should still be able to support sending both overt and covert gospel preachers into all other nations. Of course as is the nature of politics, such efforts would require engaging key rich, popular, and media people. Perhaps a sim game would make a presentation that would be seen enough to get action.

Part of the problem is developing a presentation of Christianity as logical and worth developing instead of merely fire insurance: God is absolute perfection by definition so Jesus Christ is absolute perfection in human form. If we obey Jesus more than anyone has in history, we can have a world where we have no need for hospitals, transportation can be like Philip's spiritual movement in Acts, any need for food can be taken care of by miracle feedings and more.

At some point it may become necessary to battle aggressive atheists like James Randi and his crew which offer $1 million for any proof of any paranormal event but in practice conducts smear campaigns against popular healers like Benny Hinn by exposing possibly real flaws in his ministry without actually answering the question if any of his healings is genuine. Of course such a battle against darkness would do better with the support of a large group of proven prayer warriors or overcomers.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Hey Kirk, welcome to CCN!

It was nice meeting you at this year's CGDC -- there's a lot here, and I won't try to hit on everything. I think we have some differences in a lot of our fundamentals, and so I'll try to respectfully touch on a few of those points. I don't want this thread to degrade into a shouting match -- let's all try to be respectful, give each other the benefit of the doubt, and get some mutual benefit from this discussion.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Now prayerfully consider -- would writing such a computer game be mere Charlatanism compared to doing it in reality or would a game help it to actually happen around this world of modern Pharisees and modern Gentiles?


Making this model into a simulation game could certainly be helpful, both with sharing the ideas as well as making a simulation testing ground for seeing how well your theories would work in the real world.

You seem to take a very systematic and scientific approach to evangelism -- almost as if we only need to present the information in a rational way to a person, and when presented with it long enough / in the right way, they have no choice but to accept it as truth.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Part of the problem is developing a presentation of Christianity as logical and worth developing instead of merely fire insurance


I have a hard time with taking such a cold approach to the gospel -- it's really a miracle driven by the Holy Spirit working in someone's heart, and evangelism is more about loving people in real and tangible ways rather than presenting them with an argumentative presentation of the facts.

So that's one of the small reasons why I don't approach evangelism this way -- I've had the most effectiveness in opening up spiritual doors with people when I take the time to get to know them, hang out with them, help them, understand them, and love them. I've had the least effectiveness and caused the most damage when I've been argumentative and emotionally detached/insensitive to where they're coming from.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
If we obey Jesus more than anyone has in history, we can have a world where we have no need for hospitals, transportation can be like Philip's spiritual movement in Acts, any need for food can be taken care of by miracle feedings and more.


quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Some people refer back to Old Testament demands to work by the sweat of one's brow (which can be done in front of a keyboard when it's hot) but fail to appreciate that people tend to be more happy working on whatever they choose in cooperation with God instead of whatever a possibly secular slave driver may order.


As you've said, God told Adam that he would have toil to work for food -- not just sweat when it's hot, but working all day in front of a keyboard can be still be hard and mentally taxing/challenging that leaves you exhausted. Jesus certainly fed two of the crowds that followed him, I think that had more to do with confirming who Jesus was, as well as giving an analogy about spiritual food, rather than the main purpose being meeting people's physical needs so that they wouldn't have to work -- Jesus criticized the crowds for only coming to Him again because they wanted more food.

Anyways, there's more we could talk about, but perhaps this is a good start.

Again, welcome to CCN!

In Christ,
clint

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Carefully consider these projects:

1) Save a town, save the world
This game should present the adventure of converting any town into a Christian town. Starting with preaching to 12 who are taught the New Pentateuch (Mt, Mk, Lk, Jn, and Rv which contain most of Jesus' recorded words)


Umm, "Rv"? Would that be Revelation? Most theologians I've had contact with would put Isaiah in place of Revelation. Either way, though, none of them can be really understood clearly without a working knowledge of the Old Pentateuch. ;-)

Welcome to the forum, by the way.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Carefully consider these projects:

1) Save a town, save the world
This game should present the adventure of converting any town into a Christian town. Starting with preaching to 12 who are taught the New Pentateuch (Mt, Mk, Lk, Jn, and Rv which contain most of Jesus' recorded words) for 3.5 years where they learn to preach the gospel of the kingdom in Mt. 10:7-8 and graduate sent as overcomers to repeat each to their own 12. After repeating 10 cycles the world is converted to Christian.

Significant challenges include converting all kinds of people from the worldly atheists, liberal Christians, divided and prostituted denominational Christians, and more. A later strategy when fewer natural converts are available could include keeping a record of a potential convert's friends and sending a lot of different people to them as well as the stubborn ones.

Now prayerfully consider -- would writing such a computer game be mere Charlatanism compared to doing it in reality or would a game help it to actually happen around this world of modern Pharisees and modern Gentiles?


I'm sorry, but this sounds absolutely... terrible - to me.
I mean - putting something like this in a - computer game?
For one, it sounds incredibly non-fun and incredibly boring.(and that combination kills just about every game that has it)

Unless there's some other aspect to it besides - "spreading the gospel" that you didn't mention?

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Hi and thanks for the welcomes!

God provides an open door at Christian News NorthWest which prints my letters to the editor about every other month. The August issue should have one on the abominations of Paul which I can post here if anyone is interested. The topic I see to address in the first reply is evangelism.

Evangelists are not found in Jesus' words but it is a position created by the first apostles in violation of Jesus' intent for equality of the believers under Him in Matthew 23:8-10 in order to distance the apostles from believers who were baptized into the same Spirit instead of keeping the oneness Jesus prayed we believers would be known by.

This window into church history helps explain why we have few calling themselves apostle (which means sent by God) today but we have tons of hit and run evangelists who preach and leave instead of teaching the Life Giving Spirit for 3.5 years like Jesus did. So I would say Evangelists need to repent of evangelism entirely as Rev. 18:4 suggests, instead bringing people to Jesus by doing what He did. It is true that loving people into God's kingdom is needed. However, it's a bit of a challenge to try to code love into a game. Any suggestions? As I don't have a clue on that, I tend to substitute Truth which can be coded.

Truth is spiritual food by which the reader can enjoy God. It is the greatest joy available to man in studying the Bible and is only non-fun to the non or improperly saved. The only greater joy is expressing truth in love to bring God to the world via Spirit. To move some people off their prejudices to actually participate in God's plan may require more logic to improve the gospel or more love to inspire loving it. Neither should be abandoned or you get less than absolutely perfect results.

One reason I demand greater perfection in my gospel preaching than some is I was given the honor to start a church by prayer alone. When I was in high school I prayed for a better church and I saw a boy exuding more love than most so I asked the Spirit what it was and God said, "He will be in your church." Years later I prayed for a church to be in this town and afterward that prophecy was fulfilled. They moved from the purity of their start on to Paul's epistles where they learned the example of eldership and decided after 13 years to appoint themselves elders. I advised either making all elders or none to keep the equality but instead they chose three and after I decided pursuing Jesus only is best, they performed their only official act, to formally excommunicate me. So I don't want to waste time with anyone who doesn't want God's best from the start lest they also fall after 13 years (or so) to follow Paul's traditions in their church life while refusing Jesus on everything but initial salvation.

There needs to be a major reformation to get the true church practiced to fulfill the prophecy of the manchild in Rev. 12:5 and the prophecy of the left behind in Rev. 12:6. The churches need to start producing overcomers which will become part of the manchild. This is my main interest and the media is less important to me than that message.

At CGDC I learned it would take $40,000 to get my game sold professionally. Not even close to that in the bank. So I asked another speaker what could I do to earn enough to afford to produce a Christian game? He said I should do a sales website to sell someone else's product. I may. The other route which seems possibly nearer is to continue developing my robot which could then produce games for half of the quoted price. Or maybe I should just work on what I know best, pursuing Bible truth, until I can write a book that will actually sell.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Hi, Kirk -- thanks for the reply.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
The August issue should have one on the abominations of Paul which I can post here if anyone is interested ... <snip> ...
Evangelists are not found in Jesus' words but it is a position created by the first apostles in violation of Jesus' intent for equality...


Okay, these parts help me get a better picture of where you're coming from. Are you saying that the church went wrong when it went with the leadership of the apostles (Paul included)? It sounds like you don't like Peter/Paul, and the rest of the apostles, but rather want to focus entirely on what Jesus said and did?

Please forgive me if I have misunderstood -- I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.

--clint

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Hi Clint,

Yes that's a succinct way to state it except I'd give a little more room to our fellow followers of Christ by stating it this way:

I believe we should master the New Pentateuch first, including obtaining the power to preach the gospel of the kingdom in Mt. 10:7-8 which includes 4 kinds of healing before we consider what the rest of the Bible says, so we will have a solid foundation in Christ from which to rightly divide the word of truth. Had the first 12 done this, the whole world would already be saved, the end would have come, and we alive today could be enjoying the New Jerusalem.

Without Christ as our solid foundation, we could end up both violating some of His words and even teaching men our errors as Paul did in his teachings on money and power, thus making us guilty of Jesus' judgement in Mat. 5:19.

By stating it this way, I'm not tearing anything out of the Bible, I'm just insisting we grow toward the human embodiment of absolute perfection, Jesus Christ, first before examining the words of others to see where they agree or disagree with Him. This would lead to a higher level of Bible study than currently taught anywhere I know of.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

[This message has been edited by Kirk (edited July 23, 2007).]

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
By stating it this way, I'm not tearing anything out of the Bible, I'm just insisting we grow toward the human embodiment of absolute perfection, Jesus Christ, first before examining the words of others to see where they agree or disagree with Him.


Hrm. On that level, it almost seems like you would then place the writings of Paul on a similar level with Rick Warren or RC Sproul or Chuck Smith or any other Christian writer, where we can't trust what they wrote, and we need to prayerfully run their writings through the Holy Spirit to see if we should accept what they say or reject it.

--clint

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Exactly. In my analysis the words of Paul are the least in the kingdom of heaven based on his twin judgements by Mt. 5:19 for teaching men to serve money and power which prostituted the churches starting with Rome and descending from her throughout history.

As such I'm guessing (without Biblically given figures) 50% of Paul is inspired by God and 50% not as befitting the least in the kingdom since more and he wouldn't be least, and less he might not be in the kingdom. The least in the kingdom was specifically referred to by Jesus when speaking of John the Baptist as the greatest born of women but the least in the kingdom is greater than he. The position of least in the kingdom was important for Jesus to establish contrasting His own position as greatest or king of the kingdom. Jesus' behavior is top of the line as absolutely perfect and Paul's behavior is baseline as least.

A recent PBS show on Luther stated Catholics included Paul to control the people. I currently believe Paul's writings were included by God as a significant challenge to test one's foundation in Chirst after building a solid foundation in the Gospel or New Pentateuch with love in prayer. Failing to develop such a foundation before applying Paul created virtually all divisions in church history which became the Rv 17:5 great prostitute and daughters.

So I would place the writings of other Christians including ours and those you cited at a higher level than Paul's yet lower than Jesus' absolute perfection -- as you wrote needing readers to run the writings through the Holy Spirit to see if we should accept or reject each of their sayings by praying always as Jesus said and praying unceasingly as Paul wrote.

The key scripture that needs to be fulfilled now is for the gospel to be preached to the whole world and then the end will come. We can't do that alone but we can do our part in the network or groups of 12 idea. We can improve the gospel over what tradition and Paul preaches by preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom (Mt 10:7-8) and the New Pentateuch. We can improve coverage by identifying people and their friends to preach in a multiple vector approach -- preaching to reluctant people's friends and rotating lots of believers past the potential believer in case a slight attitude, appearance, or personal prayer change might make the difference. We can improve church experience by focus on growth of spiritual talents, actually helping each other grow toward Jesus via prayer, and having open meetings such as we're having here online instead of lecture only meetings which should be reserved for teaching new disciples, not frequently experienced equal status believers. We can follow Jesus' pattern to reach the world by calling 12 disciples (students) training them in the Gospel for 3.5 years, and sending the 12 out to repeat. These strategies with serious prayer on each should help bring more people to both initial salvation and sustained pursuit of Jesus hopefully enabling fulfillment of preaching to the world first before the end comes.

Another important way to fulfill that condition is preaching to all creation by prayer. Pray daily for all people on earth to be saved and brought to the full pursuit of the truth. As you may know from Ham radio, it's possible to communicate around the world with half a watt which is within the power of humans so the more we pray with ALL our soul, heart, mind, and strength the more the world can be moved toward Jesus.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Hi Kirk, I've read what you said and was surprised that you do not consider Paul's writings 100% inspired. When I begun to read Bible I only focused on what Jesus said because I did not consider rest of the Bible reliable in the same way but over time, reading, I now believe they are inspired and don't know any contradictions that would concern me.
So now you know where I'm coming from I'd like to make few questions.

First where did Paul teach to "men to serve money" ?
And what is your view about us and the law in the old testament which Jesus perfectly fulfilled with His life? I ask this because I was wondering if you thought that Paul was somehow against the law which I see not to be the case because He was actually zealous, "of the traditions of my fathers" (Gal 1:14). But now he preached the law of freedom in Christ because while he understood that the law still remained it was under the old coveant but God had made new coveant by the sacrifice of Jesus for us, with us.
So in my opinion he thefore did not break the law in any way. And we can see that he still respected/promoted the law from Rom 3:31.

Lastly I would want to ask this because it confuses me the most that you say that Apostle Paul would have thaught to serve money. When I read Paul's letter where he speaks about donations I wonder if this is what you meant? If so I have to ask how is collecting money for these projects you suggest going to be different and how can it be done so that no one can claim you to serve money? I certainly wont because I dont believe paul did that either.
Certainly I don't believe that a man who said:
(1Ti 6:10) For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
... would promote serving money.


Thank you for taking time to read what I said, I understand it may not be easy because english is not my first language and I have past of confusing people... But I hope it makes sense what I said and asked.

I'm looking forward to read your answers and then possibly talk about those ideas/projects you wrote about. I'm open to different kinds of evengelist aproaches my self.

God bless.

In Christ,
Jari.


------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited July 24, 2007).]

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
Han,

Please forgive me for stepping in here, but I must speak.

Kirk,

Paul never taught anyone to serve money and power. What he taught was to not disobey God by needlessly rebelling against those whom God had put in power over them. The claim

quote:

So I would place the writings of other Christians including ours and those you cited at a higher level than Paul's


that we write more scripturally than an Apostle of the LORD—chosen directly by and taught directly by the LORD—is indeed a prideful and unscriptural idea that you need to throw away as though it were dung.

The fact that Paul's teachings blend beautifully with the rest of scripture even though he was not taught in the company of the other 11 proves that all their teachings come from the same source: the LORD Himself.

Many times I have run across people attacking the writings and teachings of Paul in their efforts to prove that Paul was rebelling against the teachings of Christ. In the end they only prove that they are the ones outside the Kingdom and in rebellion—not Paul.

You were excommunicated from that church because you are spreading heresy, and you need to repent.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

[This message has been edited by Tallbill (edited July 24, 2007).]

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Jari,

> When I read Paul's letter where he speaks about donations I wonder if this is what you meant?

Yes, Romans 15:26-27 which by itself may seem innocent enough to readers used to living as required by a culture of money today but in context of Revelation 17:5 and 18:4, you can see how Paul's statement that it is a duty to donate was magnified through history into such prostitution that they aren't even called prostituted churches but just prostitutes in 17:5 and we are told to come out of them in 18:4. Thus Paul's donation teaching directly and criminally violates Jesus' words in Matthew 6:24 and 10:7-9 and is judged by Jesus' words in 5:19.

> If so I have to ask how is collecting money for these projects you suggest going to be different and how can it be done so that no one can claim you to serve money?

I don't ask for money regarding church and I was specifically excommunicated from one church for refusing to donate more money to the elders even though I offered to donate anything money could buy. So Pauline elders demand money above all.

I understand that regarding my personal life in the USA culture, I cannot exist for long without money (either mine or other's) since I do not yet have sufficient faith to preach the gospel of the kingdom in Matthew 10:7-8, which would give me power to heal myself from hunger and raise myself from death after starving. Also with that faith I may be able to create food like Jesus did to feed in the two miracle feasts.

Therefore we believers should help each other by prayer to obtain the four powers of healing Jesus demands of us to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom and the power to do all the miracles Jesus did and more as He promised. Until we start living by Spirit, nearly all but the few people who know how to live off the land in reservations serve money either by giving it or receiving it to take care of material needs. This is a disgusting situation when compared to what Jesus intended and it makes the gospel of the Kingdom even more needed to be preached to the whole earth.

Tallbill, you need to re-read the administrator's warning against a shouting match. You should delete your last post for that reason. If you can't be open to learn in this thread, please find another.


------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

[This message has been edited by Kirk (edited July 24, 2007).]

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
Kirk, I'm beginning to become concerned with your use of scripture. I don't have time to address all your references, but for instance Romans 15:26.

The greek work for "contribution" in Romans 15:26 is koinonia, literally meaning participation. Here is strong's definition:

partnership, that is, (literally) participation, or (social) intercourse, or (pecuniary) benefaction: - (to) communicate (-ation), communion, (contri-), distribution, fellowship.

This has nothing to do with money grubbing. Money is simply a lighter-weight medium for partnering.

Notice it also says the "poor among the saints". This does not necessarily mean "those in charge". The term "saints" has been corrupted in many circles to mean the leader of the church. "Saints" here is hagios which means holy ones. All followers of the way were considered hagios.

This was a partnership of believers(rich and poor) to feed the poor and oppressed believers in Jerusalem, which by now were being ostracized by the Jewish social system.

This is in direct line with Jesus' teachings of feeding the poor.

Can I make a suggestion that might help each of us gain a firmer grounding in the word? Download a copy of the free e-Sword software. The plain-jane version includes the KJV and Strong's dictionary.

We all need to be sure to fit our beliefs to scripture, and not scripture to our beliefs.

God Bless!

------------------
Sam Washburn

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited July 24, 2007).]

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Tallbill, you need to re-read the administrator's warning against a shouting match. You should delete your last post for that reason. If you can't be open to learn in this thread, please find another.

Is this how Peter responded to Paul when he was rebuked for hypocrisy in his dealing with the circumcision crowd, or did Peter take to heart and consider what Paul said to him?

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Sam,

Regardless of all the synonyms you can find for money, you cannot deny that Paul started the church in Rome which eventually became the Roman Catholic Church which is the great mother prostitute referred to in Rev. 17:5. As you know, prostitutes sell love for money, although some may barter for other objects of wealth. And as you know, the Roman Catholic church is currently spending hundreds of millions of dollars to "participate" in the legal judgments against its priests. Thus Paul is guilty of creating the mother of the abominations of the earth. Paul's fruit has dumbed down the Gospel since he was alive, teaching his own respect for law without teaching the more important power to heal people as he did.

The second big abomination of Paul after his teaching to serve money or donations (or other synonyms) was to create elders and to teach others to do so in Titus. Although elders exist from Genesis to Revelation there is nowhere evidence that God authorized or approved of them. By creating a position elevating some believers above equality under Jesus, Paul criminally violated Jesus' intent in Matthew 23:8-10. Strong's defines elder as "old man" with no other definition. Thus one could relate it to Paul's description of the old man of sin as opposed to the new man in Christ. To put such people in a hierarchy over God's people is an abomination, especially inserting a comparatively secular hierarchy into church.

Another abomination created by Paul is homosexual and pedophile priests. Although Paul didn't teach it plainly, he taught people to be as he is, which according to one bible scholar was divorced since he had to be married to be on the Sanhedrin. Paul's creation of elders and his example of beating himself to keep his body under control created a situation where the candidate priests took the easy power without applying Paul's remedy for lusts and therefore sinned as their ungodly desires grew by hearing confessions.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Hi Kirk, please consider that Paul was not actually asking to contribute money but to contribute in anyway they could.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Jari,
> When I read Paul's letter where he speaks about donations I wonder if this is what you meant?

Yes, Romans 15:26-27 which by itself may seem innocent enough to readers used to living as required by a culture of money today but in context of Revelation 17:5 and 18:4, you can see how Paul's statement that it is a duty to donate was magnified through history into such prostitution that they aren't even called prostituted churches but just prostitutes in 17:5 and we are told to come out of them in 18:4. Thus Paul's donation teaching directly and criminally violates Jesus' words in Matthew 6:24 and 10:7-9 and is judged by Jesus' words in 5:19.


Romans 15:26-27 does not seem to promote serving money in anyway but what Paul is saying relates to the very first verse of the same chapter:

1We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
2Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.
3For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me.

Paul was saying that those who have received spiritual things could now contribute in brotherly love what they have for the sake of others. In acts many people shared everything they owned. And this is the duty, duty to love and take care for others. So the point is not the money, not especially because if you consider the fact that no where in those verses in the scriptrures appears the word money.

Here's the 26 and 27 verses from KJV:
26For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.

27It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.

It's good to read the whole chapter, in prayer.


I hope this makes you reconsider because the "serving of money" does not appear to be the case.

------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:

Regardless of all the synonyms you can find for money, you cannot deny that Paul started the church in Rome which eventually became the Roman Catholic Church which is the great mother prostitute referred to in Rev. 17:5.

Kirk, I dont think this is true to say that Paul started a church. Because according to my knowledge he was put to death in rome. Also roman catholic church did not consider the Bible inspired word of God until the previous pope(?), so whatever they have from for basis of the church cannot be alone from Paul's letters.
I maybe wrong on some of this but roman catholic church really did not base the church on the Bible.


quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:

Another abomination created by Paul is homosexual and pedophile priests. Although Paul didn't teach it plainly, he taught people to be as he is, which according to one bible scholar was divorced since he had to be married to be on the Sanhedrin. Paul's creation of elders and his example of beating himself to keep his body under control created a situation where the candidate priests took the easy power without applying Paul's remedy for lusts and therefore sinned as their ungodly desires grew by hearing confessions.

Paul actually gave pretty clear advices on marrying:
(1Co 7:38) So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.
(Please read the whole chapter)

And he actually wrote about those who forbid to marry:
(1Ti 4:3) Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Kirk, please consider how errous statement/claim you are making based on nothing more that just few verses?


I'm sorry to hear that you had to leave your church because they demanded money. My church does not demand money but of course hopes for donation in order to maintain the church.
So I'm sure you will find a church that accepts your contribution to Jesus, in the way you see best.

God bless!

In Christ,
Jari.

------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

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[This message has been edited by jari (edited July 24, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by jari (edited July 24, 2007).]

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Kirk:
I haven't completely read all of the thread, but mostly right now I'll comment on 2 subjects.

1 Point I disagree with: Games of Evangelism playing principle.
Regardless how well marketed or pretty your game may be, the gameplay must still be fun. Having little pixelized Christians obediantly telling the Gospel to a bunch of gullible, or not so gullible pixelized un-believers doesn't sound very fun to me.

2: Paul is uninspired.
I won't even go with the reverse logic, but I don't see how you can say that a person

------------------
MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Sam,

Regardless of all the synonyms you can find for money, you cannot deny that Paul started the church in Rome which eventually became the Roman Catholic Church which is the great mother prostitute referred to in Rev. 17:5. As you know, prostitutes sell love for money, although some may barter for other objects of wealth. And as you know, the Roman Catholic church is currently spending hundreds of millions of dollars to "participate" in the legal judgments against its priests. Thus Paul is guilty of creating the mother of the abominations of the earth. Paul's fruit has dumbed down the Gospel since he was alive, teaching his own respect for law without teaching the more important power to heal people as he did.

The second big abomination of Paul after his teaching to serve money or donations (or other synonyms) was to create elders and to teach others to do so in Titus. Although elders exist from Genesis to Revelation there is nowhere evidence that God authorized or approved of them. By creating a position elevating some believers above equality under Jesus, Paul criminally violated Jesus' intent in Matthew 23:8-10. Strong's defines elder as "old man" with no other definition. Thus one could relate it to Paul's description of the old man of sin as opposed to the new man in Christ. To put such people in a hierarchy over God's people is an abomination, especially inserting a comparatively secular hierarchy into church.

Another abomination created by Paul is homosexual and pedophile priests. Although Paul didn't teach it plainly, he taught people to be as he is, which according to one bible scholar was divorced since he had to be married to be on the Sanhedrin. Paul's creation of elders and his example of beating himself to keep his body under control created a situation where the candidate priests took the easy power without applying Paul's remedy for lusts and therefore sinned as their ungodly desires grew by hearing confessions.


Hmm..

Partnership and fellowship are not synonyms for serving money. My point was it is a completely different meaning than what you are reading into it.

Actually, Paul did not start the church in Rome. In the book of Romans, Paul was writing to an established church which he had not yet even visited. Some scholars believe that Aquila and Prisca were the church planters. They were peers of Paul. In fact, it wasn't until much later after writing Romans that Paul arrived at Rome and remained under house arrest. I don't see how you can blame him for corruption. Perhaps you can point out some more flaws you perceive in his message contrary to Christ's.

Now, about elders. Strong's definition is indeed "elderly" and in Titus 1:7, Paul uses another word "episkopos", which is translated bishop or overseer. Bishop holds a stigma because of an abuse of the position. The true role was to choose a godly, trustworthy man who "holds fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict."

I should point out here that "sound doctrine" means "uncorrupted teaching".

Being born again is a process of maturing in Christ. As one grows, by studying the scriptures and praying to the Lord, we become more like the Him in word and deed. Titus, defines a *spiritually mature* man who can be trusted to teach truth and not deception.

However, Paul does use the word overseer. So, does God approve overseers?
Judges 2:11-20
The hebrew word for "judge" is shawfat(transliterated). Strong's(H8199) says:

quote:

A primitive root; to judge, that is, pronounce sentence (for or against); by implication to vindicate or punish; by extension to govern; passively to litigate (literally or figuratively): - + avenge, X that condemn, contend, defend, execute (judgment), (be a) judge (-ment), X needs, plead, reason, rule.

So, a judge's tasks were to pronounce sentence, vindicate or punish, litigate, avenge, condemn, contend, defend, etc. These are way beyond the governing task of an overseer and God definitely approves of it since he "raised them up" (Jud 2:16).

Lastly, Paul does not condone homosexuality and pedophilia. In fact much of Paul's teaching is devoted to dealing with sexual impurity. At one point he address a problem of incest in the Corinthian church and is appalled by it.

Paul's celibacy was his personal choice and he says that (1Cor 7:7). He never said that "elders" should be single. In fact, Titus states that they should be married!

Also remember Jesus himself was celibate. I guess one could blame him for homosexual and pedophile priests, since ultimately they should be like him, right? The standard does not cause the corruption, but rather reveals it.

I don't mean this post to be vehement. I am truly concerned about the truth. I believe whole heartedly in the Bible as a whole to be the inspired word of God. And I'm quick to refute (using scripture) those who try to point out otherwise. I don't mean anything against you personally and actually am quite open-minded and willing to learn myself.

God Bless you Kirk! and may you find Him more each day.


------------------
Sam Washburn

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited July 24, 2007).]

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
I think samw3 made good points in his posts. Just saying this because I tried to say few of the same things, but read sams posts afterwards.

------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

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Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
The posters since my last above seem to have failed to consider what serving money is and more significantly failed to accept and build on the spiritual gospel of Jesus which has been presented by me as different from Paul's social gospel. Jesus' gospel is infinitely more important than defending Paul and your ignoring it proves I'm wasting my time here unless perhaps someone intelligent decides to pursue Jesus.

Do you have a dollar in your possession to buy something to eat or drink? What happens when you take it out of your pocket and trade it for material merchandise? The act of handing it over is serving money to the one with whom you wish to obtain something. Also, how did you get that dollar? Did you go to the bank, get it out of an ATM, or sell something for it such as your time to an employer? In every case handling money is serving it. Therefore Paul's handling of whatever the donation was equals serving mammon in violation of Jesus' commandment. And those who try to dance around that fact with flowery language or simple declarations aren't being honest.

All your examples of verses where Paul wrote against the things I show he did such as writing against the love of money support my claim that about 50% of Paul is inspired by God and 50% by the devil. Sometimes it's not that he presents verses on both sides of the issue but sometimes he presents material that is simply easy to misunderstand unlike Jesus' clear words.

In 1 Cor 14 which is the foundation of the Pentecostal churches, the whole idea of tongues is misinterpreted by readers who relate gibberish to foreign languages. Thus Paul's confusing words led to a whole branch of Christianity that's mostly built on fake nonsense even if some occasionally have genuine miracles of language in some of those denominations.

And your exhortation regarding giving to the poor is false in several senses, the most important of which is spiritual vs. material. Remember Jesus was a man of miracles so he could give the poor anything at any time yet he said the poor you have with you always, me you don't have always. Peter told a beggar silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee, rise up and walk. So it's important to get the spiritual reality to give the poor, not money.

You who think money is something tell me this, since Bill Gates made many millionaires with his business, does that make him a better Christian than you? And what if Bill Gates is not actually a born again Christian but a secular philanthropist? Then is he a better Christian than you?

Which do you think is more important, talk about money or the Life Giving Spirit? Which do you think will get you to grow as overcomers and be raptured as members of the manchild in Rev. 12:5? And which do you think will get you left behind in Rev. 12:6?

I've unfortunately encountered two self-proclaimed Christians who want to experience nothing like Jesus' miracles, especially not Rev. 2:26-27 but just want to be loved by Him after they die? Which of you are that kind of Christian and which want to follow Jesus wherever he goes?

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
quote:
The act of handing it over is serving money to the one with whom you wish to obtain something.

Are you perchance referring to Matthew 6:24?

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other You cannot serve God and wealth."

(Sorry for more definitions. I hope they are elucidating.)

douleuo - to be a slave to (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily): - be in bondage, (do) serve (-ice).

mammonas - Of Chaldee origin (confidence, that is, figuratively wealth, personified)

Serving wealth is not using money. Jesus paid taxes. The disciples had a money-bag (which judas frequently dipped into).

Jesus praises giving of wealth. Even giving to the temple as in the widows mite. Jesus encourages sharing wealth. Luke 3:11--And he would answer and say to them, "The man who has two tunics is to share with him who has none; and he who has food is to do likewise." Paul was following Jesus' teaching.

Serving wealth is about where one puts their trust. i.e. money is your support, your hope of a future, etc. Money/wealth is not important though. If you are blessed by an inordinate amount of wealth, and its been acquired righteously, then by all means share it. But, just using money is not serving it.

I just thought of another example:
Joh 4:8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.

No miraculous feeding here.. they just went into the city and bought food. Jesus never reprimanded them for doing it either.

Personally, I believe I am a steward of the Lord's wealth. I don't own any of it, and I pray one day I will be found faithful with how I spent both the spiritual and material aspects of my life. I do not serve money. I serve God and as His steward, my ideal aim is that anything I am managing serves Him as well and brings Him glory.

God Bless!

------------------
Sam Washburn

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited July 24, 2007).]

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
I don't get where you are getting giving money is devoting your love, and life to it. I realize the Jesus is above all, and that Spiritual food is better than gold or money. But what I disagree on is your definition of serving money.

A quick search on dictionary.com for definition of serve.

quote:

to act as a servant.

I don't understand how obtaining, or giving money is to serve, or to love money. and even serving money is different from loving it.

Are you saying that in giving money to the church through tithes and offerings that we are serving the devil? Is it either rob God, or serve the devil?

a quick dictionary search on money.

quote:

any circulating medium of exchange, including coins, paper money, and demand deposits.

Basically money is what it can buy without being fulfilled. Oranges only birth oranges, apples only apples, but money may birth both.

------------------
MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Apply your definitions to yourself with more care. If you have a dollar in your pocket you are a slave to it in bondage until you serve it to others. And you are no less a slave to it than any rich person.

> Serving wealth is not using money.

Absolutely false and you've provided no attempt to prove your falsehood. So without proof, your declaration does not overcome my proof but my proof overcomes your lie. How is that for shouting back?

> Jesus paid taxes.

Read the context. Jesus said the children of the bride chamber are free so Jesus only paid because Peter unrighteously promised and to not pay after Peter promised would have offended the temple tax collectors because it would have been a lie. Also note the means of payment, telling Peter to go fish for the money, indicating a punishment to Peter for his promise.

So you are still dancing around trying to turn God's truth into lies because of your love for money.

> The disciples had a money-bag

Why? Since Judas kept the bag and money wasn't needed with Jesus, then why did he give Judas the bag? Was it to train him or keep him under temptation so he'd be ready to betray Jesus when the time came?

> Are you saying that in giving money to the church through tithes and offerings that we are serving the devil? Is it either rob God, or serve the devil?

Yes. Jesus said church is prayer, that's spiritual not material. The work of the church is spiritual and it cannot be bought with money. Even if you spend only your own money for church and don't waste it on those who spend other people's money, your tracts, bibles, and other gospel materials are more likely to fail to bring someone into the spiritual realm. What is needed is love which is spiritual.

> giving money is devoting your love, and life to it.

If you hold money in your hand for 1 minute, your whole hand and the life of your hand is devoted to money for that minute. Same for the rest of your body holding up your hand. I'm guessing it's impossible to hold money without loving it.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Kird, I see now what you meant by serving money. This thread makes much more sense now.
But now I wonder why you believe its so since Jesus or at least His disciples used money (Joh 4:8).
And He paid tribute: Mat 17:27.


quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:

And your exhortation regarding giving to the poor is false in several senses, the most important of which is spiritual vs. material. Remember Jesus was a man of miracles so he could give the poor anything at any time yet he said the poor you have with you always, me you don't have always. Peter told a beggar silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee, rise up and walk. So it's important to get the spiritual reality to give the poor, not money.

Of course, that passage of Peter is a fine example of giving the salvation instead of anything earthly.
But I'm not sure you are saying that we should forsake all our possesions, all money, wealth?

------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

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Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:

> Jesus paid taxes.

Read the context. Jesus said the children of the bride chamber are free so Jesus only paid because Peter unrighteously promised and to not pay after Peter promised would have offended the temple tax collectors because it would have been a lie. Also note the means of payment, telling Peter to go fish for the money, indicating a punishment to Peter for his promise.


Why did Jesus pay the tribute for Peter also? "... that take, and give unto them for me and thee."
Have you considered before that perhaps Jesus meant not to offend them even He had no reason to pay tribute to the temple, being the Lord Him self?

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:

> The disciples had a money-bag

Why? Since Judas kept the bag and money wasn't needed with Jesus, then why did he give Judas the bag? Was it to train him or keep him under temptation so he'd be ready to betray Jesus when the time came?


I'm sorry if this sounds unrespectful but this explanation is not good, in my opinion. Judas betrayed Jesus in the very moment Satan entered him. But I think he loved money.


------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

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Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
quote:

> Serving wealth is not using money.

Absolutely false and you've provided no attempt to prove your falsehood. So without proof, your declaration does not overcome my proof but my proof overcomes your lie. How is that for shouting back?



By if we are talking about the same kind of money here. LIke dollars, then it is just a medium of exchange. If a Farmer like seeds, but you think he like cheese, he won't trade his bread for cheese, he'll only trade it for seeds. Money is the seeds for the farmer, the cows for the milker, and the bread for the beggar it is all the item but in a different form.

Therefore if that assumption is true, then by eating bread you are loving money as it is a form of exchange. Sorry, but that just sounds REALLY twisted. It is devoting your life to the pursuit of money for earthly things that is the love of money, not having money so that you can assist the needy, or further the Gospel.

------------------
MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
I think this verse alone tells us that Jesus had nothing against tithe:

(Mat 23:23) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Because He says "and not to leave the other undone" (pay tithe).

------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

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Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
> Jesus or at least His disciples used money (Joh 4:8).

I can't say if it was by Jesus' command or by his disciples' choice but I can say the need of the church in this age is more in doing things by prayer than by money.

> And He paid tribute: Mat 17:27.

Apparently your post arrived just after mine above it. So by now you've read the context of that verse.

> But I'm not sure you are saying that we should forsake all our possesions, all money, wealth?

No, I'm saying let's learn to follow Jesus into the spiritual realm first and when He has given us the power to do His will in preaching the true gospel of the Kingdom then let's do whatever He leads us to do.

Forsaking all without His power of the Life Giving Spirit would mean death by starvation, or cheating others by begging, or learning to be a mountain man / aborigine / etc. all of which is of no value to anyone unless actually led by God to it.

So I'm saying to forsake serving money for say 40 hours a week and serve God in prayer helping each other to get the power to do Jesus' miracles while you spend another 40 hours a week working and another 56 hours sleeping each week leaving 32 hours for other chores and free time. How about that? Then when we achieve results of prayer, getting Jesus' miracle power then we will be more clearly led by Him into doing whatever He wants us to do at the time.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
> Then by eating bread you are loving money as it is a form of exchange. Sorry, but that just sounds REALLY twisted.

Actually it is true with bread we buy at a store but would not be true of the bread multiplied by Jesus' miracles. If you live by the spirit instead of flesh, it is easier to see that after you die, you have no bread because you can't take it with you into the spiritual realm. We must move more of our soul, mind, heart, and strength out of the physical material realm and into the spiritual realm.

> (Mat 23:23) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Notice He didn't say to tithe MONEY which would have violated his command that you cannot serve God and mammon. So you can give your preacher mint, anise, and cummin but it appears we should not put money into the offering plate! But by proper attention to the weightier matters of the law, you wouldn't have a preacher for you would know the Bible and God's Spirit for yourself.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
Then why did he praise the widow who gave her last two coins (MONEY). Why didn't he condemn her for doing that?

Jesus is concerned with greed, which is a sin. Not money which is in itself amoral.

Luke 12:15 Then He said to them, "Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions."

EDIT: Your comments are beginning to sound gnostic. Does gnosticism have anything to do with your beliefs?

------------------
Sam Washburn

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited July 24, 2007).]

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
quote:
We must move more of our soul, mind, heart, and strength out of the physical material realm and into the spiritual realm.

but Suicide is wrong.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing you are serious.

just one question, if we moved back to the barter system, everything should be fine, right? no money, direct trade of goods and services.

let's say I do IT work and an hour of my IT work, agreed upon with the baker is worth 5 loaves of bread. Not much, I admit, but let's say.

then say, let me create a limited number of special pieces of paper, called AwesomeSlips, that represent say an hour of my IT services. So instead of having the baker give me 5 loaves every time I do IT work, I tell him just give me an AwesomeSlip which I can come back (when I need fresh bread) and exchange for the said bread.
And when I need some bread cuz my poor kids are starving and he bought a Mac which rarely crashes, I give him an AwesomeSlip which he can redeem anytime for an hour of IT work.

and let's say I start proliferating my AwesomeSlips, giving them to the butcher, and the candlestick maker.
Soon, they start using it between themselves until everyone uses it back and forth. And then, on July 7th, I called it money, cuz it was easier to write than AwesomeSlips.

Where did I go wrong?

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Sam,

> Then why did he praise the widow who gave her last two coins (MONEY). Why didn't he condemn her for doing that?

She got rid of all money so she could no longer depend on it but only on God.

> Your comments are beginning to sound gnostic. Does gnosticism have anything to do with your beliefs?

Your comments are beginning to sound like those of a modern Pharisee. Does being a modern Pharisee have anything to do with your beliefs?


ArchAngel,

> Where did I go wrong?

Right back in 2002 when you registered as ArchAngel instead of obeying Mat. 23:8-10 and being just an ordinary angel, a peer of all us believer angels. Then again right at the start of your post in which you equated becoming spiritual with suicide. Are you sure you are a Christian? And later on when you thought of AwesomeSlips.

At the recent CGDC I encountered someone who thought I should call my game Spiritual Life instead of Christian Life. Apparently some of you people don't realize that Christian Life IS the Spiritual Life. It is the top spiritual life. The other junk handed down by prostituted churches should not be assumed as Christian life without first checking each item with the Holy Spirit in prayer to see what the real truth is.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
lol, ok, enough from me. Your own words have accurately portrayed your views. I'll still be praying for you. Since I am honestly concerned about this, but seems like we are at an impasse.

God Bless!

P.S. the comment about gnosticism was not meant to be a slap in the face, just an honest question. And just in case your retort was equally honest, the Pharisee's chief problem was being bound up in endless laws of their own making. I am free in Christ. Praise God! So, no, I am not a Pharisee nor do I desire to be so.

------------------
Sam Washburn

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
No offense meant to Kirk, but I'm glad I read through this thread. It'll probably help later in life when I encounter other people who say they are Christians but teach so much heresy.

Actually, that probably did sound offensive. And I'm sorry. I've read everything you said in this thread and it's all wrong, imo.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
hmmm. very fascinating.
Kirk, either you are incredibly stupid, or almost incredibly smart.

If I had to guess about who you are, I'd say you were perhaps an agnostic or an atheist, playing satire. Trying to get us to prove our own Bible wrong, in a way. as I said, you could be almost incredibly smart, but your presentation is all wrong. but nice try. Far more creative than what I normally see.

and if you excuse me, I'm gonna go rid myself of this evil money by giving to one of the fine workers in my city. Hopefully, they'll give me some gas back, that'd be lovely.

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
I've often wondered why people with free will would chose to be left behind over being raptured to God and His throne. The "left behind" books are so popular, it appears tons of Christians want to prepare for that instead of rapture. So perhaps Jesus was giving an accurate prophecy with the parable of 10 virgins of which 5 were wise and 5 foolish. Let's see then, if the rapture were today, with 1.1 Billion Catholics and 0.3 Billion Protestants, there would be at most 700 million raptured plus those already in heaven due to death in Christ. Somehow I would rather fellowship with those who want to be raptured than those who want to be left behind. Where could I find such people who are serious about Jesus and not simply the ones who want nearly nothing to do with Jesus except to be loved by him after they die?

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
I've often wondered why people with free will would chose to be left behind over being raptured to God and His throne.

Tell me, did you become a Christian immediately upon hearing the Gospel?

...probably not, and neither did a lot of people. Including myself.
So I'm not sure why you are wondering this...

CPUFreak91

Member

Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
Tell me, did you become a Christian immediately upon hearing the Gospel?

...probably not, and neither did a lot of people. Including myself.
So I'm not sure why you are wondering this...



Think of it this way. It's Christmas and Santa's brought you an amazing gift: A brand new super car.. but you don't know it. You know you're getting a PS3, Wii and Xbox in 1 cool looking package. The wrapping is funny-shaped on the super car but you're used to the wrapping on the three consoles. So instead of trying out the multi-million dollar super car you reject it and go for the three consoles because you're used to seeing those wrapped consoles in every gamer's house.

That's what Kirk is wondering about: Why would someone choose 3 consoles over a super car? (In real life you could sell the super car, buy the three consoles and then buy a cheaper super car but we'll stop here).

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Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Ok, now that you know some of my theology (the supercar), how about some discussion on the three projects (the consoles) that started this thread?

Since some of you have commented on the game already, let's talk robots and enlisting governments to save the world. I assume even if you prefer driving an old lemon that guzzles oil, you still believe saving the world is a good idea or you wouldn't be on Christian Coders. So how do you suggest the world be saved and brought into the full pursuit of the truth?

You know there is a dangerous truth -- to some extent even atheists live by spirit for even their anti-Christ beliefs are supported in their experience by tiny miracle answers to their wants, the same spirit as the False Prophet will use to perform miracles to deceive people instead of using that spiritual power to become a son of God. Thus control of the spiritual realm by the truth of absolute perfection is vital or eventually many people would develop evil supernatural powers and it would become a worse world than seen in many horror movies and TV series. So there is a real and present need to make the true gospel of God's kingdom of heavenly absolute perfection known and followed. What is the best way to do it?

The robot solution would take a lot of Artificial Intelligence (AI) development which various projects suggest requires a lot of custom hand entered expert systems developed for many topics before the keys to knowledge learning and field advancement are discovered. Would it be worthwhile to try to start an online free development project like Linux for AI or is AI so potentially dangerous as an abomination of desolation or image of the beast that it's not worth attempting due to risk of Jesus' future judgment?

Perhaps the one and only safe way is to eschew technology and follow Jesus' example of 12 which could cover the earth in 35 years. That way should be easy to start and require each person to train at most 120 for the duration of the project.

Or should robots be developed on the side to supply funds for the overcomers to live on until they ascend?

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Calin

Member

Posts: 358
From: Moldova
Registered: 12-04-2006
Sorry Kirk but your theology just scares me.

quote:

you cannot deny that Paul started the church in Rome which eventually became the Roman Catholic Church which is the great mother prostitute referred to in Rev. 17:5.

Even if that was the truth (I think it's not) you shouldn't say it in a forum that is being used by Christians from all denominations.

quote:
Although Paul didn't teach it plainly, he taught people to be as he is, which according to one bible scholar was divorced since he had to be married to be on the Sanhedrin.

Maybe his wife died. Why do you have to pick the worst scenario?

quote:

Paul's ... ... example of beating himself to keep his body under control

That's not in the Bible I'm reading.

quote:

2) Robots for every household
This simulation would show humanoid robots adapting to grow food, deliver water, fix buildings, make bell-jar integrated circuits, educate


quote:

The robot solution would take a lot of Artificial Intelligence (AI) development which various projects suggest requires a lot of custom hand entered expert systems developed for many topics before the keys to knowledge learning and field advancement are discovered. Would it be worthwhile to try to start an online free development project like Linux for AI or is AI so potentially dangerous as an abomination of desolation or image of the beast that it's not worth attempting due to risk of Jesus' future judgment?

Robots are usually very 'narrow' in the tasks they can perform, humanoid, all singing all dancing robots are several decades away, however it doesn't mean you can't make a game with humanoid robots. Judging from your description The Sims would be the closest match from the gameplay standpoint. You still have to come up with the details and (sorry for repeating what others have already said) figure out what will make your game unique and fun.
I don't see any obstacle in the Bible that would stop you from experimenting with AI. I hate the 'Bible-inspired' Technophobia.


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Check my C# libraries

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Hi Kirk, good new day to you. I don't understand how does it make one's life anymore spiritual to live with or without money, it really is matter of where your heart is.
But about the projects, if you want to go without money and trust on God to provide everything you need then that is your decision of course but to judge others who use money daily yet have their heart for the Lord is not right.
I'd like to ask two more questions about scripture, please answer, you have left some of my questions unanswered, but maybe you just didnt notice them.

#1, is this scripture of the devil, since its about sharing money:
Act 4:33-35
(33) And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
(34) Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
(35) And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.


#2, what do you say about this John the babtists words to the soldiers:

(Luk 3:14) And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.


I have nothing against living entirely without money and trusting God to provide. But I also dont believe it would be the only way for a Christian to live.

------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Calin,

> Sorry Kirk but your theology just scares me.

Great! Maybe that will help you think and pray about it more until you see its truth.

>> the Roman Catholic Church which is the great mother prostitute referred to in Rev. 17:5.
> Even if that was the truth (I think it's not) you shouldn't say it in a forum that is being used by Christians from all denominations.

1) It is the truth -- to prove it, read the surrounding context verses. As I told a former boss who claimed to be a Catholic elder, there aren't many cities set on seven hills, there aren't many groups whose leaders wear scarlet, and if you put two and two together, what do you have? Also, if you look at the great prostitution description and the fact it has many daughters born during the Reformation and since. Even prophets of the Catholics themselves said the current Pope is second to the last. Also its size is very great: 1.1 Billion Catholic and 0.3 Billion daughter protestants of all other denominations.

2) The Pope himself recently made an announcement that Catholicism is the true church and is the only place for salvation. That means he supports the view that all denominations are wrong except only he doesn't agree it applies to his own group. For the leader of 1.1 Billion to make such a declaration makes it worthy of discussion anywhere for he controls more people than any nation except possibly China.


>> Paul's ... ... example of beating himself to keep his body under control
> That's not in the Bible I'm reading.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (NIV) No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

So what Bible are you reading? If it is the New Pentateuch I suggest not to make opinions on Bible books outside the scope of the NP until you are led by God to read the whole New Testament and / or Bible.

> I don't see any obstacle in the Bible that would stop you from experimenting with AI. I hate the 'Bible-inspired' Technophobia.

Thanks for your suggestion. I used to hate it too but now I am not so sure.


Jari,

> I don't understand how does it make one's life anymore spiritual to live with or without money, it really is matter of where your heart is.

Think of it on a church level. In church you are supposed to come closer to God. Yet in most churches in the USA, prayer meetings are the least attended. Money begging sermon lecture meetings are the most attended but they too frequently do not bring a person closer to God. Jesus said his house is a house of prayer but they don't pray much. So it would be more spiritual for churches to pray more and donate less. Likewise when we personally grow more spiritual we may find less use for money. I do not suggest throwing away your income until you are 100% sure you can live by spiritual means -- and I mean DIRECT spiritual life supply which comes from God alone as suggested in the Gospel of the Kingdom (Mat. 10:7-8) instead of the not as spiritual living by donated work of others which many pastors do, since that cheats others.

> is this scripture of the devil, since its about sharing money:
Act 4:33-35

Can you decide by yourself? See what eventually happened to the practice. Sharing all things in common became such a law keeping practice that two cheating liars were killed. That scared the rest and the practice ceased. So what is God's message?

> what do you say about this John the babtists words to the soldiers:
(Luk 3:14) And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

The soldiers likely had a reputation for bullying common people out of extra money. Being content with wages is more spiritual than that, yet not as spiritual as Jesus. Remember Jesus evaluated John the Baptist as greatest born of women but the least in the kingdom is greater than he. We must live with our pay or seek a better job until we overcome the need for money. We should first overcome it in our church life because in heaven there is no money and the true church is led by Jesus only so we need to live in that true church on earth.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Calin

Member

Posts: 358
From: Moldova
Registered: 12-04-2006
quote:

1) It is the truth -- to prove it, read the surrounding context verses. As I told a former boss who claimed to be a Catholic elder, there aren't many cities set on seven hills, there aren't many groups whose leaders wear scarlet, and if you put two and two together, what do you have? Also, if you look at the great prostitution description and the fact it has many daughters born during the Reformation and since. Even prophets of the Catholics themselves said the current Pope is second to the last. Also its size is very great: 1.1 Billion Catholic and 0.3 Billion daughter protestants of all other denominations.

2) The Pope himself recently made an announcement that Catholicism is the true church and is the only place for salvation. That means he supports the view that all denominations are wrong except only he doesn't agree it applies to his own group. For the leader of 1.1 Billion to make such a declaration makes it worthy of discussion anywhere for he controls more people than any nation except possibly China.


In my opinion there's only one harlot in the Bible prophesies the one mentioned in Hosea and pretty much every prophesy in OT. Rev. 17 should be correlated with i.e. Hosea 11 and Mathew 23: 37-39.
It might be an oversimplification but that's the only interpretation that makes sense to me.
If Jesus way angry on someone before his crucification it must have been the Jewish nation for not acknowledging him for whom he was.
Rev 17 speaks of a harlot that dies by the hand of those whom she trusted (the kings of the earth). The same image is portrayed many times in OT.

Rev 18:24 (NIV)
'In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earth'

How can the Catholic church be responsible of the blood of all who have been killed on the earth (in all times not only after the ascension of Christ)?

The interpretation that the 'harlot' is the disobedient nation of Israel is the only one that in my view correlates with OT.


[EDIT] I thought I'd make the search on the Internet to see if someone else shares the same point of view (I knew there had to be someone I just didn't have any link at hand) and I found this page which brings more or less the same interpretation:
http://bibleprophesy.org/rev1718.htm

[EDIT #2] at Proof #4. there's an interesting discussion about the seven mountains.

Sorry for derailing your thread. Anyways it was you who started =], ...actually it was Clint.

[This message has been edited by Calin (edited July 25, 2007).]

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
The Pope himself recently made an announcement that Catholicism is the true church and is the only place for salvation. That means he supports the view that all denominations are wrong except only he doesn't agree it applies to his own group. For the leader of 1.1 Billion to make such a declaration makes it worthy of discussion anywhere for he controls more people than any nation except possibly China.

First, that is a mischaracterization of what the Pope said—likely deliberate in an attempt to legitimize your own heresy.

Second, the Pope’s claim can be legitimately discounted through a surprisingly brief examination of the original language texts.

What should frighten you is that you and the Pope are in the same boat—and it is sinking.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Kirk, we dont see the scripture in the same way which is understandable because you dont consider all of the Bible inspired due to the fallability of men. But I still recommend you to read Apostle Paul's first letter to Timothy, which in my opinion alone shows that your view on the apostle is wrong.
It actually concerns me that you blame him on many things and speak about more spiritual way while you judge his words about beating his body. Because the point was not to cause physical damage (NIV just translates it that way) but not to lean on the flesh's desires. Because flesh lusts against the spirit.
Please tell me, is my assumption correct that you dont read the OT either because it would not be inspired either?

------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Calin,

Rev. 17:5 clearly refers to harlots / prostitutes. Mat 23:37-39 clearly refers to Jerusalem which is NOT directly related except in killing. Hosea 11 appears to be unrelated to both. A better correlation for Mat 23:37-39 is Rev. 11:8 which links Jerusalem to Sodomy (man looking to man) and Egyptian Eldership (ungodly power) instead of harlotry (women defiled by many men).

>> Rev 18:24 (NIV) 'In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth'
> How can the Catholic church be responsible of the blood of all who have been killed on the earth (in all times not only after the ascension of Christ)?

Have you never read how Catholics created Marxism, supported Communist takeover of Russia, supported Islam to intentionally deprive the sons of Ishmael salvation? Even the movies show the Italian mob members who have killed people in the USA are Catholic. Have you talked with someone who has actually visited the Vatican? There are rooms whose walls are made of dead men's bones and more. Church histories show how Catholic Inquisitions killed many faithful Christians. If it is true that they included Paul in the New Testament to control people, they are responsible for dumbing down the gospel to prevent people from developing the talents Jesus demands of healing the sick and dead so they are responsible for all deaths faithful believers would have prevented including murders by non-Catholic criminals. Not only so, they are responsible for creating homosexual as a popular lifestyle which is responsible for most deaths from AIDS. I have no privileged information but if they exercised their power to create the world wars, it is very likely they've been involved in much more wars and deaths. Even the recently past war within Ireland was fought half by Catholics.

Again their worst act was dumbing down the gospel which makes them responsible for ALL deaths in mankind since then and because some believers may have developed the supernatural powers of Jesus Christ like He did, they may have become involved in time as Jesus was present in Old Testament prophecies and events like the burning furnace with Shadrack Meshack and Abednego to apply the Life Giving Spirit to save more lives throughout history and eventually all lives. So that's what makes the Catholics responsible for all deaths including before they existed.

> I found this page which brings more or less the same interpretation:

It is easy to find such nonsense on the web -- some even say it's the USA. Could that page be written by a Catholic to deceive, distract, and blind people to the truth?

Tallbill,

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation.

Reported on these websites and more:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19692094/?GT1=10150 and http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2007/07/14/features/life/50-pope.txt?submitted=true

> you and the Pope are in the same boat and it is sinking

You have a tall bill to pay at the judgment seat of Christ.

Jari,

> you dont consider all of the Bible inspired due to the fallability of men.

Wrong. God inspired the Bible to be written but like any publication it contains stories of things the publisher doesn't personally like in order to get the whole truth presented. God saw fit to include both the absolutely perfect words of his only begotten Son and the words of dimwits like Peter who Jesus rebuked saying "get behind me Satan." Now based on Jesus' words do you think Peter was inspired there by God or Satan? If Peter could sometimes be inspired by Satan how about Paul?

> It actually concerns me that you blame him on many things and speak about more spiritual way while you judge his words about beating his body.

I am not discounting beating as ineffective but Jesus obviously had a better way.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Phew. A lot here, and I'm not sure how much longer this thread will be productive.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
> It actually concerns me that you blame him on many things and speak about more spiritual way while you judge his words about beating his body.

I am not discounting beating as ineffective but Jesus obviously had a better way.



Wait, you *do* understand that Paul isn't talking about physical beatings, right? He's talking more about the mental and physical struggle against sinning -- this is the same struggle that Jesus was talking about in Matthew 26:41 -- "Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."

I understand that there are a number of difficult things that Paul says, but I don't think that this is one of them, and I am surprised that you're undermining and removing much of the authority of the Bible because you don't think it lines up with what Jesus said.

You make it sound as if Paul preached a false and perverted gospel (that is nearly worse than an outright lie). So if Jesus appeared to Paul, and told Paul that He would spread His message to the gentiles through Paul, then who was lying? Jesus or Paul? Was Jesus mistaken about what Paul would do, or was Paul lying, and Jesus never appeared to him?

If Peter is a lying nincompoop who tried to destroy the church, then can we not trust the gospel of Mark (which Peter had heavy influence in)? If Paul was an abominable heretic who is largely responsible for the failed spreading of the gospel, then should we trust the gospel of Luke which he helped write?

You base so much of what you're arguing on what Jesus said, but you're cutting down the very people who recorded Jesus' words.

I don't see what's to stop you from relying on any other accounts of Jesus's words, such as the Gospel of Thomas, or the Koran.

In Christ,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited July 25, 2007).]

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Tallbill,

LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI reasserted the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches and Catholicism provides the only true path to salvation.


quote:

You have a tall bill to pay at the judgment seat of Christ.

You slander people wholesale in the post from which I am quoting, and you claim I have any bill to pay at all?!?!?!

My debt is paid in full, a fact which is witnessed to by my life. Your beliefs, and your actions in trying to spread those beliefs, slander the One who paid my debt, and you need to repent.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Kirk, while Paul and Peter are fallible humans like us I believe their writings are indeed inspired and doctrines taught correct. Thanks to God for giving us so much wisdom and knowledge through these Apostles. But we are free to question and study what we read and see if there's any contradiction to what Lord Jesus says.

In Christ,
Jari.

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Clint,

Welcome back to your thread as Calin pointed out.

> Wait, you *do* understand that Paul isn't talking about physical beatings, right?

I was taught by an "ordained minister and Bible college graduate" these beatings were in the sensitive spot under the eyes. There is nothing in the English to contradict that it was physical. Your interpretation is unproven and therefore suspected of being wrong. Your verse where Jesus tells us His way does not suggest Paul didn't beat himself physically. However, I think Paul simply redirected his flesh to be expressed elsewhere by his beatings instead of crucifying it by spiritual means as Jesus did.

> I am surprised that you're undermining and removing much of the authority of the Bible because you don't think it lines up with what Jesus said.

As far as I'm aware, no nation uses the Bible as its national law except maybe the Vatican so the authority of the Bible isn't removed by me. The blindness many people have in reading and understanding it is being removed. I've even talked face to face with a person who believed Jesus was superseded by Paul and more recent revelation was revealed through him so Paul should be listened to instead of Jesus when they conflict. I prefer to believe in the absolute perfection of the only begotten Son of God. I'm obeying Paul in his statement "let God be true and all men liars."

> You make it sound as if Paul preached a false and perverted gospel (that is nearly worse than an outright lie).

Notice how Paul rarely quoted Jesus, except on his own conversion experience. Notice how Paul suggests giving up some vital beliefs in Hebrews 6. Notice how in all of Paul's writings there is almost nothing that can be considered the Gospel except Billy Graham's people claim believing Jesus died and rose again is sufficient for salvation.

> So if Jesus appeared to Paul, and told Paul that He would spread His message to the gentiles through Paul, then who was lying?

Paul obviously did preach to the 10 churches he raised before he returned to prostitute them with elders. Paul must have gotten people saved in Rome on his two journeys there. The gospel he spoke doesn't appear to be in the written record but I believe even that is God's will to reinforce that Paul's disobedience made him least in the Kingdom. And, sadly as it is, the prostituted situation with Babylon & daughters created by Paul's teachings is what has spread the gospel around the world so far. So nobody lied in answer to your question.

> If Peter is a lying nincompoop who tried to destroy the church,

Peter made at least three obvious mistakes Jesus corrected him on, one serious enough that he was rebuked as Satan. So we can't rely on Peter's words supporting Paul. But I don't think he was trying to destroy the church.

> then can we not trust the gospel of Mark (which Peter had heavy influence in)

The gospel of Mark is very consistent with the other 3 gospels except it is the shortest of the 4. There is no reason to mistrust Peter's desire to serve Christ in general except in the cases Jesus noted. It is unlikely Peter would lie about what he saw of Jesus even though he might err unintentionally in his own life.

So you are doing the typical completely accept or completely reject thing instead of realizing most people are less perfect than Jesus but no born again believers are 100% evil. A few years ago I told a philosophy teacher about gray areas -- like in pictures on newspapers, the grays are composed of smaller areas of black and white. If you look at them with finer resolution you can tell what is black and what is white.

> then should we trust the gospel of Luke which he helped write?

I've never before heard Paul helped write Luke. What is your evidence?

> You base so much of what you're arguing on what Jesus said, but you're cutting down the very people who recorded Jesus' words.

In the pursuit of truth, accuracy and honesty are more important than any reason for covering up the truth like respecting someone because of their reputation but neither should one conduct a smear campaign, pretending a person is false now simply because they have sinned in the past. And you are confusing the honest recorded testimony of 4 or more mortals on what they saw of a perfect man with their own imperfect lives.

> I don't see what's to stop you from relying on any other accounts of Jesus's words, such as the Gospel of Thomas, or the Koran.

The Gospel of Thomas is pretty good, almost a shorthand gospel. But you've got to be kidding on the Koran. Go to a library and lay out a New Testament side by side with the Koran and read from each. You'll be very clear there is no comparison. And if you dig deeper, you'll find Allah does not beget so Allah means Satan. All the Koranists are worshiping the devil so the only real way to stop them is preaching the Christian gospel.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Clint,

Welcome back to your thread as Calin pointed out.



Hah. I suppose I did originally derail your topic. I would be more apologetic, as I normally don't like derailing questions, but you based so much of your post on things that aren't in line with orthodox Christian teaching, that someone was going to jump on you for it, and I was hoping to get the CCN discussion off on the right foot. Thanks for taking it all so well! You've been under pretty heavy attack, and while I certainly heavily disagree with your position, I can at least thank you for (for the most part) keeping your cool under pressure.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
> Wait, you *do* understand that Paul isn't talking about physical beatings, right?

I was taught by an "ordained minister and Bible college graduate" these beatings were in the sensitive spot under the eyes.



The Greek can refer to a bruised eye, yes. From what (little) I understand, it was associated with punching, as to the face. Similar to how we would say "The company received a black eye from the scandal" -- companies don't have eyes, it's figurative language to express meaning. Just like how when Jesus said "I am the door", he didn't mean that where we have skin, he has mahogany veneer, and where we have a belly button, he has a doorknob -- he just used that figure of speech to communicate an idea. That's similar to what Paul was doing at the end of 1 Corinthians 9.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
There is nothing in the English to contradict that it was physical.


If we stop at just the English, then we have the potential to easily lose out. Thankfully, I don't think we need to dive much deeper at this point -- let's take a look at 1 Corinthians 9 and see what Paul is actually saying.
quote:
1 Corinthians 9:24-27
Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.


The question here is if the word beat (in this translation "discipline") is to be taken figuratively or physically. Let's do an associative analysis of how much language in this paragraph is figurative illustrations using physical reality, and how much it is talking directly from and to physical reality.
"Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize?" -- setting up an analogy
"So run that you may obtain it." -- spiritual application of the analogy -- he is not telling us to enter the coliseum games -- he is telling us to live life with perseverance.
"Every athlete exercises self-control in all things." -- referencing physical nature to again set up for a spiritual analogy.
"They do it to receive a perishable wreath," -- again referencing physical situations to set up for spiritual punchline.
"but we an imperishable." -- Paul is not saying that we'll get an un-wilting wreath in Heaven -- he is using this as analogy for salvation. We live life with perseverence for our hopes in eternal life.
"So I do not run aimlessly;" -- is Paul saying that he's literally running in the Olympic games? Certainly not -- he's talking about not living life in vain.
"I do not box as one beating the air." -- Paul didn't enter the Games for running, nor did he enter them for boxing. These are just analogies to wrestling spiritually against one's sin.
"But I discipline my body and keep it under control," -- the entire previous part of the paragraph uses physical analogies to make spiritual points, and from context (even in the English), it is clear that this is no exception. He is going off of the boxing analogy (hence using a word that means "punch in the face"), and also referencing back to the part where he said that every athlete exercises self control.
"lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." -- And to finish it all of, Paul remains talking about spiritual analogies with his use of the word "disqualified" -- he's not disqualified from any race -- he's talking about not attaining the goal of eternal life. As I've shown, the plain sense of the paragraph is written with analogy and figures of speech consistently from start to finish.


I hope I didn't disrespect you by picking the paragraph apart like that -- I meant none. We're just so widely disparate, that I'm trying to establish some solid common ground between us.

If the guy who taught you that Paul physically beat himself (with something like flagellation) is still around, then I would seriously approach him with concern. If he doesn't read scripture in context, then you may not want to follow his teachings.


I could write more, but it may be helpful to focus on this one foundational point of hermeneutics -- how we are to read and interpret scripture. If we can't agree on this, then there's no way we can agree on anything built from it.

--clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited July 25, 2007).]

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
I wasn't going to reply, but here I am.

quote:

Actually it is true with bread we buy at a store but would not be true of the bread multiplied by Jesus' miracles. If you live by the spirit instead of flesh, it is easier to see that after you die, you have no bread because you can't take it with you into the spiritual realm. We must move more of our soul, mind, heart, and strength out of the physical material realm and into the spiritual realm.

So you're saying we should just whine to God to give us bread while he just points to us when he has given us limbs to work and get it ourselves? Yes, we should go to God with our problems, but if I own a business that's making 1 million a year, I'm not going to go crying to God for provision of bread.

quote:

> (Mat 23:23) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Notice He didn't say to tithe MONEY which would have violated his command that you cannot serve God and mammon. So you can give your preacher mint, anise, and cummin but it appears we should not put money into the offering plate! But by proper attention to the weightier matters of the law, you wouldn't have a preacher for you would know the Bible and God's Spirit for yourself.



Think about those days, even though they used money, they still bartered. Everyone helped in the way that he could. Think about the days of Solomon (Wrong spelling i know, I'm kinda in a hurry) the Crafters gave crafted items, the sewing sewed great works, those that had fabric gave it, those that had money/silver and gold gave it to the temple so they could pay others for their work, ext.

quote:

I've often wondered why people with free will would chose to be left behind over being raptured to God and His throne.


Is this a joke? Not everybody believes the Bible is truth you know. Anyway, and if you're talking about:
quote:

The "left behind" books are so popular, it appears tons of Christians want to prepare for that instead of rapture. So perhaps Jesus was giving an accurate prophecy with the parable of 10 virgins of which 5 were wise and 5 foolish. Let's see then, if the rapture were today, with 1.1 Billion Catholics and 0.3 Billion Protestants, there would be at most 700 million raptured plus those already in heaven due to death in Christ. Somehow I would rather fellowship with those who want to be raptured than those who want to be left behind. Where could I find such people who are serious about Jesus and not simply the ones who want nearly nothing to do with Jesus except to be loved by him after they die?


First, I ENJOY the left behind books, it is a STORY about what COULD happen. Its mostly entertainment, and a bunch of prophecies from revelation stitched together to have a story about what could happen. Its not that I want to leave in the Third coming, I want to go in the Rapture sure, but that doesn't mean I can't read about what could happen in the last days. If so, then throw out the book of Revelation.

quote:

Think of it this way. It's Christmas and Santa's brought you an amazing gift: A brand new super car.. but you don't know it. You know you're getting a PS3, Wii and Xbox in 1 cool looking package. The wrapping is funny-shaped on the super car but you're used to the wrapping on the three consoles. So instead of trying out the multi-million dollar super car you reject it and go for the three consoles because you're used to seeing those wrapped consoles in every gamer's house.
That's what Kirk is wondering about: Why would someone choose 3 consoles over a super car? (In real life you could sell the super car, buy the three consoles and then buy a cheaper super car but we'll stop here)


First Santa doesn't exist, but we didn't come to talk about that.

That's what it looks like to you from your point of view, well look at it this way.

You're visiting someone's house, and they offer you an off-brand Cheeze Wiz on Fake Club Crackers, or real Cheese on Home made matzas. Which one is better?

quote:

Since some of you have commented on the game already, let's talk robots and enlisting governments to save the world. I assume even if you prefer driving an old lemon that guzzles oil, you still believe saving the world is a good idea or you wouldn't be on Christian Coders. So how do you suggest the world be saved and brought into the full pursuit of the truth?


By loving people 1 person at a time, and showing them the source of your love. By showing them that Jesus changed you and caused you to be different in a good way.


quote:

I have nothing against living entirely without money and trusting God to provide. But I also dont believe it would be the only way for a Christian to live.


I agree with Jari, I don't have any problem with living without money and trusting God to provide when God asks you to but what I don't agree with is picking out Paul's (Who you disagreewith) verse of the love of money being a root of all evil and changing it into money is the root of all evil, and there suggesting that we live without anything that wasn't gotten from God even though he provides the means right there. Its like asking God for bread when he gave you the flour (I know there is more ingredients in bread, but I'm talking about all the ingredient required.)

quote:

Great! Maybe that will help you think and pray about it more until you see its truth.


Watch saying that statement as its exculsivistic, and is possibly viewed as insulting the unbeliever of what you say. Truely, there is likely some flaw in all of our religions until all be made known in Heaven, no I'm not saying God won't reveal truth to us, I'm just saying, pride comes before a fall.

1 Peter 3:15

quote:

>> Paul's ... ... example of beating himself to keep his body under control
> That's not in the Bible I'm reading.

1 Corinthians 9:27 (NIV) No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

So what Bible are you reading? If it is the New Pentateuch I suggest not to make opinions on Bible books outside the scope of the NP until you are led by God to read the whole New Testament and / or Bible.



1 Peter 3:15
quote:

15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Context of the verse you quoted:
[quote]


------------------
MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

[This message has been edited by Mene-Mene (edited July 25, 2007).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Btw Mene, that verse says "the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil"

A root. There are many others, and money ain't the only source of evil or anything.

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Right, I knew that, I just mistyped it.

------------------
MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Clint,

Well your verse analysis makes me think you could be a good partner in developing an AI to explain the Bible. Maybe that would be a better way to debate truth.

I still don't see any proof that Paul was talking about beating anything other than his physical body and suggestive evidence that he was actually beating himself under the eyes is the thought of having eyes full of adultery, or sexual lust which he wanted to remove but poking himself directly in the eye isn't a healthy option so he chose to beat lower.

One thing I learned is demons must be denied their actions while they are in the act so they can't sow enough to create a lust in my heart which is intended to bear fruit and cause sin. Just looking in the direction of an attractive person gives demons the opportunity to work on me. So I have to actively not love them until they die. This kind of thing is what Paul talks about but it seems a lot like having a snake eat its own tail. The true way of Jesus is much better.

So, in terms of derailing or hijacking, perhaps we could get back to pursuing Jesus. Do we agree that Jesus is far more important than Paul?


Mene Mene,

> So you're saying we should just whine to God to give us bread

Tell you what, do it and keep at it until you get bread right from God's own hand, not from a human who feels led to give. When you do that, you'll have learned a lot and you'll by then not consider it whining.

> what I don't agree with is picking out Paul's (Who you disagreewith) verse of the love of money being the root of all evil and changing it into money is the root of all evil, and there suggesting that we live without anything that wasn't gotten from God even though he provides the means right there.

I didn't start with Paul's verse, I started with Rev. 17:5. Look at it this way, if you want bread you can dumpster dive behind a restaurant, find flour, and make the bread or you can with about the same amount of work clean up, go inside the restaurant and pay for some bread. So you'd rather make bread because you don't like to clean up?

Or, let's say you were really a superhero in disguise and you could create bread out of nothing but you didn't because you liked going out in the field and cutting down wheat then drying it and rolling it between stones and much more processing to make your bread. Would someone think you might be able to make better use of your time?

> Truely, there is likely some flaw in all of our religions

So you're admitting you represent some other religion than that which Jesus Christ died to bring us? This requires looking into the Gospel. Hmm, yes Jesus prayed for His believers to be one as He and the Father are one. So let's obey Jesus and be one.

Paul never prayed that his believers be one, so that's why there are thousands of prostituted daughters of Catholicism or other religions as you stated. These need to be left promptly as Rev. 18:4 says but for what? For yet another little whore or the true church Jesus intended?

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Mene didn't admit that, Kirk... and might I add, the only thing you'll ever accomplish by talking like this in a forum or elsewhere is making people dislike you intensely. Are Christians supposed to be rude? Unkind? Scornful?

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
I still don't see any proof that Paul was talking about beating anything other than his physical body and suggestive evidence that he was actually beating himself under the eyes is the thought of having eyes full of adultery, or sexual lust which he wanted to remove but poking himself directly in the eye isn't a healthy option so he chose to beat lower.


The lower part of the eye is referring to where the bruising occurs. Just as a "black eye" in today's culture doesn't scientifically refer to an actual black eye, but rather a bruising of the soft flesh beneath the ocular orbit.

And I'm not purporting to offer "proof" -- only convincing evidence. It's hard to say that a case is completely air tight -- I'm always open to questioning my conclusions. I'm just saying that in context (referring to athletes and boxers competing in sports), the best evidence is in favor of an interpretation that says Paul was using the "beat my body" phrase in the figurative sense. I've laid out the exegesis as clearly as I can -- I'm not sure how to do it any more. Paul was in the middle of an illustration talking about athletes (specifically boxers), and comparing athletic competition to living the spiritual life, and in the context of boxers, makes a spiritual analogy about punching, as in boxing. It's right there in the English text -- you don't even have to go to the Greek. To interpret it as physical would be a real discontinuity in the flow of the point that Paul is making.

As I said, I would have real doubts about anyone who claims to have a Bible degree and interprets this passage as a physical beating -- to do so goes against basic rules of hermeneutics (reading things in context). I'm not blaming you for coming up with that interpretation -- I'm just saying that if that's the kind of faulty Biblical exposition that you're sitting under, I highly encourage you to listen to this man with caution, and I'm inclined to say that you would do well to think of seeking out a new pastor -- there are much better teachers out there. Feel free to ask him about my explanation of the passage -- I would love to hear how he responds.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
So, in terms of derailing or hijacking, perhaps we could get back to pursuing Jesus. Do we agree that Jesus is far more important than Paul?


All scripture is God-breathed and useful for a variety of purposes -- not all equally useful, but it is all equally inspired by God, and therefore equally "important" in that sense. As individuals, Jesus is infinitely superior to any human, whether Adam or Moses or Peter or Paul. Asking if one part of scripture is more important than another is like asking which person of the trinity is more important -- it's an invalid question -- the scriptures cannot be broken -- it's a cohesive whole. Sidenote: This is why I'm annoyed with Bibles that put the words of Jesus in red letters as if to elevate them above other text. God spoke directly when Jesus spoke, but also directly through Isaiah, David, John, Daniel, as well as through inspiration of the Holy Spirit through the rest of the Biblical writers. When I buy Bibles, I try to avoid the red letter editions for this reason -- along with ones that do harsh versification breaks that weren't in the original text.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Paul never prayed that his believers be one,


Please be careful with such sweeping accusations -- this one is just not true. I don't think a more clear and applicable encouragement for unity can be found than the one in Phillipians 2:
quote:
Phillipians 2:1-4
If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.


The rest of the chapter (and indeed letter) only builds on this. Again, please be careful with sweeping statements about such things.

Thanks for your replies!

In Christ,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited July 25, 2007).]

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
I may regret getting involved in this thread.

Kirk, by dismissing part of scripture as uninspired, you have essentially set yourself up as the arbiter of the matter. By what right do you reject Paul's writings as uninspired? And, assuming for the sake of argument that you are are actually correct, how can you be sure the other books *are* inspired, and haven't been tampered with? How can we trust any of it, let alone your interpretation of any of it?

Second, I'm not seeing how any of the game ideas at the start of this thread are really "game" ideas. Maybe a simulation of some sort.

Third, sort of combining my first two concerns, I think you're going to have troubles getting people "on board" to working with you on your ideas an projects. With such a fundamental difference between you and orthodox Christianity, I think it's going to be very difficult for you to work with most people. I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. For example, I spent some time looking at your "Christian Life" game at the CGDC, and I think on the surface it's a great idea, but I noticed that towards the end of the game you start introducing some very unusual and very strong theology and terms that are going to turn a LOT of people off. By incorporating your strong, unorthodox theological opinions into your projects, you're simply narrowing both your possible development/publishing options and your end-market to way too small of a slice to make it worthwhile.

Lastly, I'm a bit confused about how you are using the term "AI". For a very small segment of Ph.D. computer scientists locked away in labs in places like MIT, "AI" can mean a system that mimics the human brain on a small scale, "learning" and truly making its own decisions. 99.9% of programmers and 100% of today's games are years (decades) away from incorporating that kind of "AI" into games - for game programmers, "AI" simply means giving your program enough "if/then/else" statements to cover all the various possibilities to make it appear it's making a logical choice when determining where to move a player, determining which card to play, determining which direction to shoot an arrow, etc. I have no idea how you expect to use "AI to explain the Bible" (especially when REAL intelligence results in disagreements in explanations) - can you elaborate?

------------------
Brian

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Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Clint,

For there to be convincing evidence that Paul wasn't talking about beating his body to keep it under subjection, it would have to somehow indicate what other than his body he was beating, like his soul or spirit.

I had an experience at the CGDC with one guy who was allegedly a Christian who when I preached to him just a little it looked like oval indentations a little smaller than my fist were being made on his skin. I didn't know what that meant but he quickly discontinued the conversation. Whatever that was could have been a beating I suppose. Could that be what you are talking about?

The man who gave me the literal interpretation is long gone out of my life, since the 1980's. However, I still see no reason to doubt his interpretation and accept yours. You allude to the allegories and analogies but if there is no real interpretation then it's just vain fiction, which is not a characteristic of the Bible. So what is the real interpretation?

> All scripture is God-breathed and useful for a variety of purposes -- not all equally useful,

Notice the contrast between that quote and:

> Asking if one part of scripture is more important than another is like asking which person of the trinity is more important -- it's an invalid question -- the scriptures cannot be broken -- it's a cohesive whole.

Now you've written all scripture is not equally useful but it's equally important? Too much hot air in there.

> As individuals, Jesus is infinitely superior to any human,

We agree on that. But how can you conceive of the words of the infinitely superior being of whom the Father said "listen to him" as being downgraded into equal status with other Bible characters to the point you don't care to see His words emphasized as distinct from the rest? Or how can you say the old Pentateuch is equal to the New Pentateuch which expresses the new testament in Jesus' blood? Or even a manual for the future, Revelation is only worth the same as a book from the past like Lamentations? Even Jesus himself taught in Mat. 23:8-10 we believers are equal under Him as our boss. So how can you not regard His words more than the others?

>> Paul never prayed that his believers be one,
> Phillipians 2:1-4

I'm sorry I stand corrected on that point. I believe Philemon may also correct my statement. Never the less the fruit of the Pauline churches in Rev. 17:5 is division. So again we have a 50% teaching from Paul. Be one yet be elders from among whom will arise grievous wolves, not sparing the flock, instead of be one letting Jesus be in charge.

BrianT,

> dismissing part of scripture as uninspired,

Why the accusation without evidence? I never said anything in scripture was uninspired. It seems Paul may have had at least three sources of inspiration, God, himself, and Satan. And God inspired the Bible to be written with all three.

> I'm not seeing how any of the game ideas at the start of this thread are really "game" ideas. Maybe a simulation of some sort.

So you don't classify sims as games?

> I think you're going to have troubles getting people "on board" to working with you on your ideas an projects.

Yes, but I really only have to please God. And He sent me a young man via a Usenet group who has worked with me on AI from his high school days to now a graduate of Stanford. Together we developed a new AI language but it has a flaw of being written in VB.NET which has some reliability and speed issues. I had the language at CGDC but nobody seemed interested.

Good point to consider as during CGDC I realized I may have an equally hard time finding a wife willing to think as I do but God can supply.

> I spent some time looking at your "Christian Life" game at the CGDC, and I think on the surface it's a great idea, but I noticed that towards the end of the game you start introducing some very unusual and very strong theology and terms that are going to turn a LOT of people off.

What specifically? I can't guarantee it's all God inspired, just that it was my best effort at the time. Perhaps some of the ideas are simply beyond what your pastor(s) and yourself have thought of. I spent 13 years getting to know God, 13 years learning the foundation of Bible study and now 17 years growing beyond that and I'm still not perfect but my interpretation is closer than any teacher I've had.

> By incorporating your strong, unorthodox theological opinions into your projects, you're simply narrowing both your possible development/publishing options and your end-market to way too small of a slice to make it worthwhile.

The point with advanced theology is the ongoing pursuit of truth and educating people in the truth, not to make people happy who aren't even trying to pursue truth. Never the less, God willing there will come a way to convert lots of people to pursue and live the truth for themselves. Put it this way, it's the only real option for getting out of this solar system.

> I have no idea how you expect to use "AI to explain the Bible" (especially when REAL intelligence results in disagreements in explanations) - can you elaborate?

First, read my AI post under Programming on GAMEACE. Second, read a book called "Developing Natural Language Interfaces" by Suereth (I can email an OCR'd copy). Third, move beyond Suereth's ideas by using expert systems to discover non POS (part of speech) relations between words and develop a custom dictionary better than WordNet to support it. (Webster's is not adequately software ready.)

Work up to the level of detail in Clint's verse breakdown above. Work on the metaphor handler to recognize where Clint's analysis fails to lock in a proof of his intended idea. And keep developing until it gets to be worthwhile. Just be careful it doesn't get into the wrong hands.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
[quote]
Why the accusation without evidence? I never said anything in scripture was uninspired. It seems Paul may have had at least three sources of inspiration, God, himself, and Satan. And God inspired the Bible to be written with all three.

No need for word games, you know what I meant by my question. And you avoided answering.

quote:

So you don't classify sims as games?

Some, I guess.

quote:
Together we developed a new AI language but it has a flaw of being written in VB.NET which has some reliability and speed issues. I had the language at CGDC but nobody seemed interested.

I'd be interested, I didn't hear any mention of it at the CGDC.

quote:

What specifically? I can't guarantee it's all God inspired, just that it was my best effort at the time.

Specifically, I doubt many people would know what you mean by "man child". I'm still not sure I understand what you specifically mean myself. I know it has to do with the "man child" of Rev 12, but I'm pretty sure that if you made it clear, the majority of Christianity would disagree with your interpretation. Another example: I got the impression that the game advocated some variation of the split/partial rapture viewpoint. For some reason, eschatology is a hot-point of theological discussion, and strongly endorsing a partial-rapture view is going to turn off 95% of potential players. That sort of thing.

quote:

Perhaps some of the ideas are simply beyond what your pastor(s) and yourself have thought of.

Don't confuse disagreement with ignorance.

quote:

but my interpretation is closer than any teacher I've had.

Everybody thinks that about themselves. Nobody holds on to what they think is a wrong interpretation.

quote:

Work up to the level of detail in Clint's verse breakdown above. Work on the metaphor handler to recognize where Clint's analysis fails to lock in a proof of his intended idea. And keep developing until it gets to be worthwhile. Just be careful it doesn't get into the wrong hands.

I don't understand what you're talking about, but I don't have the time or desire for an in-depth theological debate with you.


------------------
Brian

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[This message has been edited by BrianT (edited July 25, 2007).]

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
I took the liberty of digging into my Strong's Concordance on the word under discussion in that verse in the original greek and came up with the greek word "hupopiazo" with, indeed with one of the definitions being to "beat under the eye", buffet, or disable, tease or annoy in compliance, all of those figurative. However, the literal translations that are listed for that word to subdue one's passions of (so it would be to subdue the passions of the body), keep under (as in submission) or to weary. All of these are available and potentially valid translations, subject to the context of course, however, the translation of "beating under the eye" is listed as being figurative, a euphemism or catchphrase in the original greek, as Clint suggested, not be taken literally. It should also be of interest to note that my KJV Bible reads the following.

1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

It mentions nothing about the beating translation apparantly found in the NIV whatsoever. The same greek word is also translated as "weary" in the KJV in Luke 18:5 in a parable of Jesus, which is the only other place it's used in the Bible.

------------------

The time for speaking comes rarely, the time for being never departs.
George Macdonald

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
BrianT,

Thanks for your revealing response. As I was watching TBN this evening a speaker was talking about the tower of Babyl being something built man's way vs. the Ark which was built God's way. I realized my AI project would be built man's way with involvement by you but God's way with my friend at Stanford. And your post demonstrates that intuition as truth.

If you had read earlier posts in this thread you would have encountered the answer to your question. Learn the New Pentateuch so you have a foundation from which to rightly judge what agrees with Jesus Christ and what doesn't for yourself. This is a new level of Bible study. If you master it, you'll have the ability to understand why people should depreciate lesser spiritual material than Jesus'. However, I doubt you'll make adequate effort.

> I'd be interested, I didn't hear any mention of it at the CGDC.

My language was announced to Tim who didn't do anything with it. However, when I had the microphone I announced some of my projects but nobody inquired about anything other than my board game.

> the majority of Christianity would disagree with your interpretation.

Everyone has a right to be ignorant.

> Don't confuse disagreement with ignorance.

Sorry, everyone has a right to be stupid.

> I don't understand what you're talking about

Perhaps if you cared to...


Ereon,

> 1Co 9:27a But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection:
> It mentions nothing about the beating translation

Notice carefully Paul wrote of his BODY and SUBJECTION. That's the point. He may be subduing his passions but they weren't the passions of his soul or human spirit but those of his body. How did he accomplish subjecting his body except by bodily methods? There is no indication he used methods of soul or spirit.

> The same greek word is also translated as "weary" in the KJV in Luke 18:5

How would you weary the flesh? Well, exercising it a lot. So it could be like little kids who need exercise so they'll fall asleep or it could be a more specific form of exercise known as beating about the eyes. It doesn't really matter as both are inferior to Jesus' method of crucifying the passions and lusts by applying the Holy Spirit to not love them to death.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

[This message has been edited by Kirk (edited July 25, 2007).]

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
May God bless you richly, Kirk.

------------------
Brian

"OOP programmers have a lot of class"

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Jari

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Posts: 1471
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Registered: 03-11-2005
Kirk, few things here I would like to address, in order to help to know the truth. First it's not entirely true that Paul did not quote Jesus. He probably didnt get to read the four gospels however he talked about the Lord Jesus a lot. The whole begin of hebrews is one example where Paul speaks about Jesus. And in [url=1Co 11:23-24]1Co 11:23[/url] he also speaks what Jesus had said and done. Those were just two examples.


quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:

> 1Co 9:27a But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection:
> It mentions nothing about the beating translation

Notice carefully Paul wrote of his BODY and SUBJECTION. That's the point. He may be subduing his passions but they weren't the passions of his soul or human spirit but those of his body. How did he accomplish subjecting his body except by bodily methods? There is no indication he used methods of soul or spirit.


May I suggest that one way to do this in practice could be fasting. And as HanClinto pointed out scripture should not be taken literally. And in the context we see Paul was also using words race, price etc.


------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

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Kirk
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Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Jari,

> First it's not entirely true that Paul did not quote Jesus.

You haven't been entirely honest here because I didn't write "Paul did not quote Jesus". What I wrote was:

>> Notice how Paul rarely quoted Jesus, except on his own conversion experience.

Paul did not quote Jesus in Hebrews. He did quote Jesus in I Cor 11:24-25, 2 Cor 12:9, and several times in Acts. In Acts most of the quotes are about his own conversion and sending. There are no more examples.

> May I suggest that one way to do this in practice could be fasting.

I agree that is a possibility.

> And as HanClinto pointed out scripture should not be taken literally.

That is too broad sweeping and general a statement -- it cannot be truth for if you cannot take scripture literally then you could say Paul didn't exist, [the word Paul was an allegorical figure for a rock who speaks about Jesus which is again an image of another apostle of Jesus]. Actually by the rules of interpretation all that in brackets is true but not so good as plain ordinary literal truth.

Clint hasn't yet answered my request to determine exactly what his not literal interpretation of Paul's physical subjection of his body means.

Fasting from physical food is an unlikely route to reducing lust. Eating lots of enjoyable food like watermelon can distract one from lust and supply sugar to give a diabetic symptom of erectile dysfunction which can be counted as a physical reduction of lust. Alternatively one could fast from sources of lust which would be a non-physical fast.

I hope that helps you know the truth.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Jari,

> First it's not entirely true that Paul did not quote Jesus.

You haven't been entirely honest here because I didn't write "Paul did not quote Jesus". What I wrote was:


Sorry, that was a mistake. I didnt notice the word "rarely".


>> Notice how Paul rarely quoted Jesus, except on his own conversion experience.

But I didn't say Paul quoted Jesus in hebrews. I said he spoke about Jesus in hebrews.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:

> And as HanClinto pointed out scripture should not be taken literally.

That is too broad sweeping and general a statement -- it cannot be truth for if you cannot take scripture literally then you could say Paul didn't exist, [the word Paul was an allegorical figure for a rock who speaks about Jesus which is again an image of another apostle of Jesus]. Actually by the rules of interpretation all that in brackets is true but not so good as plain ordinary literal truth.


I gave few examples however, "race" and "price" which means that Paul did use, at least, some allegorical speech.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:

Fasting from physical food is an unlikely route to reducing lust. Eating lots of enjoyable food like watermelon can distract one from lust and supply sugar to give a diabetic symptom of erectile dysfunction which can be counted as a physical reduction of lust. Alternatively one could fast from sources of lust which would be a non-physical fast.

I hope that helps you know the truth.


Well I thank you for sharing that information, it might be useful, even not entirely new but seems like a scientific aproach for explaining the scriptures. But I assume neither one of us wants to rely on what the science says. Personally I rarely include any science to my studies, as that might lead to leaning on own understanding and rejecting the voice of Holy spirit. Not to mention of asking the wisdom from God at the first place.

God bless.

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

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HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
For there to be convincing evidence that Paul wasn't talking about beating his body to keep it under subjection, it would have to somehow indicate what other than his body he was beating, like his soul or spirit.


In addition to what is present in the context of 1 Corinthians, Paul gives more than a chapter of indication of what he's talking about in an exposition in Romans 7. I highly recommend reading at least Romans chapters 6-8 in one sitting, and preferably the whole book in one sitting (it's how all of the NT letters were meant to be read). Paul is talking about the process and struggle of sanctification -- we won't be perfect until we die and are loosed from this mortal coil, but a good part of the "race" and "fight" of life is to continually persevere in resisting sin in this life. This is a common theme throughout Paul's writings -- it's at the end of Galatians, it's all through Romans, it's in Timothy, and it's the same thing that he's talking about in 1 Corinthians. With such a common motif consistent with the body of Paul's writings, this is the most reasonable way to interpret that passage in Corinthians.
quote:
2 Timothy 4:7-8
I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day—and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.


This is at the end of Paul's life, and it's his last reference to his common "fight" and "race" analogy. He is saying that he's about finished, and he is looking forward to receiving his "prize", and encouraging us all to do the same, and live life with perseverance and zeal, as athletes would do in a marathon.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
I still see no reason to doubt his interpretation and accept yours. You allude to the allegories and analogies but if there is no real interpretation then it's just vain fiction, which is not a characteristic of the Bible. So what is the real interpretation?


I didn't mean to be so vague -- I can be more specific if you like. Paul used two analogies in that passage in 1 Corinthians. Both are about athletes. Both are about competing for a prize. The first is about runners -- Paul isn't telling us to be runners, the analogy is for us to live life with perseverence. The second is about boxers training -- he says not to live life uselessly ("as one beating the air") but rather to fight and humble yourself under Christ. Both analogies analogize "receiving the prize" to salvation.

I hope that was clear enough to not just be a vague "allusion".


quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Now you've written all scripture is not equally useful but it's equally important? Too much hot air in there.


Maybe I can give you an analogy. Imagine you have two children. One does his chores, he is polite, respectful, etc. One doesn't care about you and takes your money and spends it on candy. Which is more important?

Well, one is certainly more useful in a utilitarian sense. But both are your children, and both are important and unique in and of themselves, without comparison to each other. Both are special and important in God's sight.

That is one way that things can be equally important, but not equally useful.

If you can't tell, I'm giving a vague allusion to the parable of the Prodigal Son. The father cared equally for his two children, even though one was decidedly more useful than the other.

I hope that helps clears up some of the "hot air".

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
But how can you conceive of the words of the infinitely superior being of whom the Father said "listen to him" as being downgraded into equal status with other Bible characters to the point you don't care to see His words emphasized as distinct from the rest?


I don't see Jesus' words as being "downgraded." I don't know what your opinions are, but I believe that the Holy Spirit is God, and when the Bible says that God (the Holy Spirit) spoke through people in the scriptures, I see every reason to put that on par with the other ways that God has spoken to us, such as through Jesus.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
So how can you not regard His words more than the others?


Because the rest of the Bible is scripture -- that means it is inspired by God. This is very different than the writings of other theologians -- the writings of the Bible are on a whole 'nuther plane.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Never the less the fruit of the Pauline churches in Rev. 17:5 is division. So again we have a 50% teaching from Paul.


What you're doing here is called "eisogesis".

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
> dismissing part of scripture as uninspired,

Why the accusation without evidence? I never said anything in scripture was uninspired. It seems Paul may have had at least three sources of inspiration, God, himself, and Satan. And God inspired the Bible to be written with all three.



Kirk, part of this conflict with Brian here is that you're redefining "inspired" from the normal usage of the word. You're mixing terms to prove your own point. You are indeed denying that the Bible was inspired in the sense that orthodox Christianity uses the word "inspired" -- you're making up your own definition for it.

quote:
Originally posted by jari:
And as HanClinto pointed out scripture should not be taken literally.


I hope I didn't express it exactly that way -- scripture should often be taken quite literally. Scripture should always be taken according to its literature. If it's written as fact, then we should take it as fact. If it's metaphor, then we should take it as metaphor. If it's prophecy, we should take it as prophecy. But we shouldn't take a fact of history and try to falsely spiritualize it (the Peter example that was mentioned). Neither should we try to take a metaphor and wrongly take it too literally (the "I am a door" example). This is a fundamental rule of basic Biblical interpretation -- without it, one has little hope of practicing good exegesis.

I'm not sure how many more posts I'll make in this thread, but thanks for the discussion so far!

In Christ,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited July 26, 2007).]

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
BrianT,

The manchild in Rev. 12:5 is the group, body, or church of overcomers who have gained both the rod of iron in Rev. 2:26-27 and the reward to sit with Jesus on His throne in Rev. 3:21. The proof that this is the group to be raptured is Rev. 12:6 where the remaining woman who has fallen from a heavenly position to an earthly position due to being delivered of its heavenly manchild is left behind for the 3.5 years of great tribulation. Thus the woman is the end-time church with both wise and foolish virgins before the rapture and only the foolish remain after the rapture.

Obviously lazy pew-potato Christains would love to believe all they have to do is sit in their prostitute sucking in sermons and when the day comes be raptured regardless of their performance on earth. The parable of the wise and foolish virgins requires the wise buy a reserve supply of oil or the Holy Spirit with which to go to meet Jesus. Those without the oil are told to go buy from those who sell and when they have done so they are left behind because Jesus never knew them, indicating they should have bought their oil from Jesus instead of paid clergy.

All televangelists I've heard address the topic of the manchild say it's Jesus and the woman is Israel, which is of course BS when compared to my analysis above. This includes John Hagee, Chuck Swindoll, and even the correspondance department of Billy Graham. Not only do they give the false interpretation, they are unwilling to change.

So you and all who read this should endeavor to gain all the rewards to the overcomers in Rev. 2-3 as well as a reserve supply of oil from Jesus.


Jari,

I see no more questions in your last post that remain unanswered. Thanks for the fellowship.


Clint,

You seem to have a very well developed background in the Bible. Did you go to a Bible college?

quote:
Paul used two analogies in that passage in 1 Corinthians. Both are about athletes. Both are about competing for a prize. The first is about runners -- Paul isn't telling us to be runners, the analogy is for us to live life with perseverence. The second is about boxers training -- he says not to live life uselessly ("as one beating the air") but rather to fight and humble yourself under Christ. Both analogies analogize "receiving the prize" to salvation.

That makes sense.

quote:
I believe that the Holy Spirit is God, and when the Bible says that God (the Holy Spirit) spoke through people in the scriptures, I see every reason to put that on par with the other ways that God has spoken to us, such as through Jesus.

Jesus' words can be assumed to be reliable down to the last jot and title because Jesus is one with the Father and Holy Spirit. Even if the Spirit spoke through Paul say 50% of the time, it is illogical error to claim his words were as without flaw as Jesus' since his primary teachings which contradict Jesus' words on money and power which prostituted church history are obviously not inspired by the Holy Spirit but the devil since the Holy Spirit cannot contradict himself. If Paul's Roman Catholic Church were established by God as Israel was, there would be a promise to bring it back after it is destroyed as Israel was so promised.

So I am not comfortable with your homogenizing Bible characters. In my own life I was inspired to write a guy I used to know a letter asking if he would have the integrity to retract his prior statements against me based on an new paper I'd written on Paul. During a church meeting, the Holy Spirit spoke as audibly as a person sitting next to me "he would not have the integrity". Now I ask what is the reason God spoke that loud and clear for something so unimportant to me when so often I have to really seek His will? And more to this issue, why can't I hear God speaking that clearly all the time? And if I'm not hearing God's word that clear all the time, then how can I even begin to think anyone other than Jesus himself did?

> you're redefining "inspired" from the normal usage of the word.

Not at all. The normal usage of the word is not defined by a link to the often wrong Wikipedia. When studying I was led to a book on Hermeneutics in a Baptist Seminary in Portland wherein I read a section on Bible inspiration saying the Bible is like God's newspaper with the voices of God, angels, man, demons, and Satan. All the stories were those the publisher wanted published even though the publisher doesn't agree with each voice.

So my usage of inspired is the correct way, even if yours is the popular way.

quote:
If it's written as fact, then we should take it as fact. If it's metaphor, then we should take it as metaphor. If it's prophecy, we should take it as prophecy. But we shouldn't take a fact of history and try to falsely spiritualize it (the Peter example that was mentioned). Neither should we try to take a metaphor and wrongly take it too literally (the "I am a door" example).

Sounds good.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Did you go to a Bible college?


Not really, no. I only took a couple bare-minimum Bible classes at college -- it's not hard to have taken more Bible classes than me. I've been considering going back to school to study more theology.

Please forgive me if I sound precocious -- I'm really still a very amateur scholar, and while I endeavor to do my best and be honest, consistent and accurate, I know I don't always succeed, and I appreciate sharpening iron.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
Jesus' words can be assumed to be reliable down to the last jot and title because Jesus is one with the Father and Holy Spirit.


His words were still recorded by human authors -- hence why in the 4 gospels there are 3 different ways that Jesus tells Peter that he will deny Him 3 times.

quote:
Originally posted by Kirk:
The normal usage of the word is not defined by a link to the often wrong Wikipedia.


Haha, good point. I can't argue with you there.

A better exposition of the more orthodox views of inspiration are over at Theopedia. The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy is also pretty helpful for seeing what many of the implications of views on inspiration are.

While I've been studying inerrancy for a couple of years now, I don't have as many hard and fast conclusions on it, and don't really have anything more productive to say about it in this discussion.

Honestly, my biggest fear is that you sound very willing to razor-blade a good many verses out of the Bible, and while you have clear guidelines ("does it agree with Jesus?"), your rules for doing so aren't terribly concrete. I think that there's a bigger case for the "plenary verbal" inspiration of scripture than you're making it out to be. I indeed recognize that Paul teaches a handful of things that are very hard to grasp and understand, but I believe they are still established as scripture, and we disregard them at our peril.

Perhaps the appropriate quote here would be from Peter's second epistle.

quote:
2 Peter 3:14-18
So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.


I would encourage you to give the doctrine of inerrancy another shot -- especially with such a warning from Peter.

Anyways, back on topic with your projects -- I wish you the best. I've appreciated talking with you, and while I respect your zeal and concern, I'm leery enough about their theological base that I can't see much of them working out well. We could try and talk about the issues, but the much of the designs are dependent as outgrowths of the underlying theology.

If there's anything specific you'd like to talk about with regards to them though, I suppose I'm still game.

In Christ,
clint

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Your link to Theopedia on Inspiration sounds much better than the previous Wikipedia link. However, the important thing about the Bible is not how much inspiration went into it but fulfilling it.

quote:
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

There is little in Paul that is prophetic needing implementation when it comes to fulfillment. There is much in the New Pentateuch. In fact one cannot fulfill any prophecy without first being closely related to Jesus. One can fulfill just about any prophecy without ever hearing of Paul.

quote:
I'm leery enough about their theological base that I can't see much of them working out well.

So how would your sick mentally ill Bible scholars who appear more concerned with appearance than substance proceed to get their minds healed and start fulfilling scripture? As I wrote earlier I can't guarantee I'm on the right track but such that I have sure blows you and your buddies Pauline doctrines to hell.

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
Interesting how you leave out the verse before wherein Jesus states plainly that He has not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets (in other words, the Old Testament, which you seem to want to do away with in favor of your own twisted delusions of theology). You constantly bring up the "new" pentateuch—all of which is really nothing more than teaching about the Old Testament Law and Prophets and what they really mean. Revelation is nearly two-thirds direct allusions to Old Testament passages and CANNOT be deciphered without an accurate understanding of the Old Testament Law and Prophets. Before the first chapter of John is over Jesus reveals the meaning of a passage early on in the Old Testament, and guess what? Nathaniel got it! Why can't you? Luke learned about Jesus from Paul. Mark learned about Jesus from Peter and, through Barnabas, from Paul. Matthew is constantly, constantly, constantly linking everything Jesus said and did to the Old Testament Law and Prophets. All of the teaching that Jesus and all of the Apostles did was Old Testament teaching because THAT'S ALL THE PEOPLE HAD TO WHICH TO COMPARE THEIR WORDS because not one word of the New Testament was written down at the time, so they taught from the Old Testament—and applauded when the people tested what they said against what was ALREADY WRITTEN DOWN in the Word of God.

WHAT IS NEW EXCEPT HERESY?!?!?!

Enough of your slanders against my Lord and Savior!!!

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

[This message has been edited by Tallbill (edited July 26, 2007).]

Kirk
Member

Posts: 73
From:
Registered: 07-23-2007
Yep there's a spectrum of lunatics against Christ on this forum. They are modern Pharisees who have clean white walls but between their ears are ravening wolves foaming out their doctrines which they themselves don't obey.

Unless you guys pull your heads out of Paul's rear and start following Jesus toward the manchild for a change, I'm outa here!

------------------
Love Jesus,
Kirk W. Fraser

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Okee dokee. Thanks for the discussion everyone -- I'm going to shut this 'un down before more flames are thrown.

Locked.