World Views and Politics

Virginia Tech shooting – Lazarus

Lazarus

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Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
What's this world coming to... 21 students killed by yet another nutcase - of which there are a plentiful supply these days.

I surely don't plan on going to public high school...

spade89

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Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
i go to public high school.

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CPUFreak91

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Yeah. I don't think "violent games" are the cause of this, but with the lack of moral values and a fear of God they probably help.

quote:
Originally posted by spade89:
i go to public high school.


I go to public homeschool. Any additional members of my family are welcome to enroll.

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jestermax

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It was a University...not a high school/elementary school

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Lazarus

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I know, Jez - I'm not old enough to go to college. I meant that high schools aren't safe either.
buddboy

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yeah and like just last week or the week before there was a murder suicide on the University of Washington campus.

21. wow. I wasn't sure about the exact number.

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jestermax

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laz: well in that case, either don't leave your house or move to Canada (but not Quebec because nobody likes them). Go "Right to bear arms"!

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crazyishone

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Yep the UW one was different though. I actually live near it, so people got all "what is our world coming to?!" for about... well nevermind, they didn't. It's a common crime these days. (The guy killed his ex-girlfriend and himself because he couldn't handle the breaking up and seeing her with another guy.)

This shooting at Virginia Tech really shouldn't be compared to the UW one.

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Lazarus

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Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Updated to 33 students killed.

Gun control, how I despise thee. National media, how I despise thee.

crazyishone

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Seconded.

I can't say a single anti-gun control thing without using some trite cliche, so I won't bother, but I will stake my flag on that side of the debate every time. True, no honest citizen needs an automatic weapon, suppressor, or a 20-round clip. But why should any government be allowed to control the possessions of the citizens? The same really goes for drugs and alcohol. Maybe its generally accepted that some things are "bad", but one shouldn't tout "Rights" in one debate and destroy them in another.

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jestermax

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i haven't heard the whole story but apparently he killed 21, took a 2 hour break and went at it again and for some reason they didn't avoid the second attack.

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spade89

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From: houston,tx
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he killed 33 including himself he was an english senior or something if i am not mistaken and he shot himself in the face and no-one can recognize him ,but they say he was an asian dude.

50 years ago the biggest problems in highschools were kids talking in class and being found in the hall ways during class now the biggest problems are rape,murder,drugs,etc...

30 years ago they bannned the Bible from being thought in public highschools .

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luke

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Not to be crude- but when I consider the ~300 million people who live here, and then think about how many are messed up and the easy access to guns (which isn't a bad thing per se)... I'm surprised that this doesn't happen more often...

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zookey

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Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
A couple things to remember:

Millions play violent games and watch violent movies, far less that 1 percent will ever shoot someone.

I don't think it has anything to do with the Bible being pulled out of schools---they had problems back then (it was like in the 50s I think a kid snipered a bunch of people on a Texas campus from a clock tower) just it was A) covered up better and B) punished heavier.

I think our single biggest problem is we look for scapegoats. Games made them do it. TV made them do it. they have some sort of disease that makes it not their fault---if we stopped excusing negative behaivor as much and started attaching punishments to it I think more people would be less inclined to do these things---although they are still a very random occurance.

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InsanePoet

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I have a friend at virginia tech....

I hope is ok.

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Realm Master

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Grand total Casualties: 33.

Including gunman.

...

Don't know what to say...

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crazyishone

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Here's one of the cliches I mentioned before:

If maybe a few more people in those rooms had guns, could the death toll have been lessened? I believe so.

People who want guns will get them.

Remember that we are not becoming more violent in the past 50 years. Maybe in America, but thats just around 250 years of history. Anybody remember all those thousands of years where a guy around 14 was considered soldier material? (because the average person didn't live to be 40.)

We've always had killers and unstable people. We only need worry when those people have power. Access to guns certainly gives an individual a deal of power. BUT, every American citizen has the right to possess that same power.

Also remember that we have a far more widespread media influence these days. "50 years ago" the population of America was just starting to have a color tv in almost every house. So perhaps the quantity of crimes is not increasing, just the quantity of crimes that happen to get reported and recorded.

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Lazarus

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From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Yeah Crazy, I think you're definitely right there - alot of smaller but no less tragic crimes go unreported.

A liberal on another site had this to say about the scenario you(and others) propose:

quote:

What you're more likely to see is this: The Killer gets off two shots. A gun wielding student moves to draw his own gun and is gunned down because the killer has the drop on him. A third student draws his gun and fires five times, hands shaking, hitting two people beyond the killer but not hitting him. The killer guns him down. Two students in different classes hear the shooting and draw guns - they encounter each other in the hallways outside their rooms and begin a pitched gun battle. The shootout escalates with arriving students and faculty picking the first armed and firing student they see as 'the killer'.

Law enforcement arrives and wipes out half the armed students because some of them fire on the cops. The original killer is long dead, but the collateral damage caused by so many unskilled and inexperienced shooters starts a legal battle that continues for ten years or more after the incident. Students who engaged law enforcement are imprisoned. Students who engaged each other are sued / imprisoned. Faculty are sued. Cops who engaged gun wielding students are sued.

Law enforcement agents become paralysed during incidents like this - threatened by a mass of armed students but hamstrung by the law from defending themselves. The softly, softly approach allows future events of this type to grind on longer, causing more casualties still.


He's a gun control advocate, btw...
Really can't know though. One guy with a pistol could have took down the killer in the first two seconds - or gotten shot himself.
Either way, taking away a person's right to defend themselves is not the way to go...

crazyishone

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Exactly laz. Correct or incorrect, however you feel about "gun control", there is still no controlling a "criminal" who wants a gun. So deprive a normal citizen of an existing right? Not a good idea.

Somebody who doesn't live in America: How do you feel about gun control?

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ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
interesting you should quote that, Laz.
they can make up their own stories, but conservatives can post to a school shooting where the students had guns. the death count was 2 and the killer was quickly subdued.
the media never really picked up on it so none of us really hear of it.

either way, this isn't about gun control.
it's about one crazy (for lack, or permission, of a better word) individual.

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zookey

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Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by insanepoet:
I have a friend at virginia tech....

I hope is ok.


I could have sworn there was a site or something called Face Book that was helping with that--I saw it on the news--there might be other ways to find out too although that was all I remembered---let us know how he is!

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Faith_Warrior

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Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
Whatís all this with ďAmericansĒ and ďCitizensĒ? The guy wasnít an American nor a Citizen but on a visa. I had no idea that people from other countries can visit the US and buy guns, thatís a bit lame considering they make it so hard for us regular law abiding citizens to buy or carry guns.

Iíd especially drastically lighten gun laws along the southern border, a lot of people die from people coming over the border illegally and murdering citizens here. When I lived in San Diego, my neighbor was murdered by Illegals in the middle of the night for his pickup truck at his own home, and this is certainly not a rare event. But stuff like that is old news and rarely gets reported nationally, not when they are getting the scoop on a story caused by our liberal government letting nuts into the country and handing them a gun.

InsanePoet

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Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by zookey:
I could have sworn there was a site or something called Face Book that was helping with that--I saw it on the news--there might be other ways to find out too although that was all I remembered---let us know how he is!


Yeah I used facebook to send him a messsage. he's ok =). He was actually traveling at the time.

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spade89

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Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
it has everything to do with the BIBLE being pulled out of schools.

there has always been crazy people but now that people stopped teaching the moral values of the BIBLE and started teaching their own more and more of these incidents are happening at a faster rate and at a larger scale.

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kenman

Member

Posts: 518
From: Janesville WI
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
Originally posted by spade89:
it has everything to do with the BIBLE being pulled out of schools.



I don't belive that it has EVERYTHING to do with that, but certainly is a factor.

Our societies moral status has been declining for quite some time. For example first not letting teacher spank kids, next parents cant spank kids, next kids get more control over parents and a system of disorder is now mandated, and the kids get to spank the parents. I know this is a loose association but it is how things get out of hand. Then pull the Bible out of the school, then pull out any organization that has to do with religion unless it's Harry Potter. Then teach kids fluff (do whatever you want if it feels good). Teach abortion, birth control. . .

Is there any wonder why our society is failing with morality? With a considered lack of order and direction?

Post it note:
I see all the good kids here that have parents that have tought respect and in turn, they are mature and are able to conduct themselves in an adult manner. I see a high number of home schooled kids here. I wonder how much respect each of these kids have for their parents. God bless each student and I pray for angelic protection for each person here.

(Ok I know not 100% on topic but close enough)

Kenman

Faith_Warrior

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Oh a bit of a correction, he has been in the US since 92. There was a backpack near him that contained his US visa application in it. He was here with a green card.

So in light of that I guess I canít put a lot of the blame on the INS since he had been in the US for so long. As hard as the INS works *cough* Iím sure it would be hard to run psychological profiles periodically for the same person. He was young when he arrived in the US and had the grades and money to get into a prominent college so in that such suspicion would be difficult to raise.

The downside to this could raise the possible backlash towards the Korean community in the US. Personally I like Koreans, I spent many years studying a Korean martial art and obtained a black belt, learnt some of their history and learnt some of their language. I have only good memories of those times. But of course there is fear of backlash against the Korean community over the ordeal, which tends to happen with such traumatic circumstances.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited April 18, 2007).]

Mene-Mene

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He was an exchange student from what I heard.

I also study a Korean martial art. I can't really say my opinion of their culture, as I haven't studied them. But I do remember them setting up missiles of some sort against the US.

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Faith_Warrior

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Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Mene-Mene:
He was an exchange student from what I heard.

I also study a Korean martial art. I can't really say my opinion of their culture, as I haven't studied them. But I do remember them setting up missiles of some sort against the US.


hehe that's North Korea... which points their missiles at South Korea as well. The kid was from South Korea, he moved here when he was a young child.

ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
the only thing that I can see in his culture that could have caused this was his major.
I mean, come on. He was an english major. He was supposed to be either a Doctor or an engineer. Identity crisis.

but yeah, while I have been joking around with my friends about koreans being crazy and how I'll only just cut them up (cuz I'm half korean), this isn't really korean behavior. koreans are more likely to make tons of money, and buy you out.

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InsanePoet

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Posts: 638
From: Vermont, USA
Registered: 03-12-2003
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
Oh a bit of a correction, he has been in the US since 92. There was a backpack near him that contained his US visa application in it. He was here with a green card.

So in light of that I guess I canít put a lot of the blame on the INS since he had been in the US for so long. As hard as the INS works *cough* Iím sure it would be hard to run psychological profiles periodically for the same person. He was young when he arrived in the US and had the grades and money to get into a prominent college so in that such suspicion would be difficult to raise.

The downside to this could raise the possible backlash towards the Korean community in the US. Personally I like Koreans, I spent many years studying a Korean martial art and obtained a black belt, learnt some of their history and learnt some of their language. I have only good memories of those times. But of course there is fear of backlash against the Korean community over the ordeal, which tends to happen with such traumatic circumstances.


[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited April 18, 2007).]


The fact that he was south Korean is insignificant and I don't think people are really going to worry about that. These shootings have been executed by other people of other races in the past.

I have some South Korean friends =p

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Faith_Warrior

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Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by insanepoet:
The fact that he was south Korean is insignificant and I don't think people are really going to worry about that. These shootings have been executed by other people of other races in the past.

I have some South Korean friends =p


Heh donít get the idea I thought it all up or support it, simply go to Google news and enter Korean backlash because it does happen.

ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
some koreans are worried about it, and South Korea has apologized for him in anticipation of a backlash.

it's really the uneducated group that you need to worry about, people act by feeling, instead of reason.
but I still think we're rather low on the list.
the racists still have blacks, mexicans, arabs, sihks (cuz they look like arabs, supposedly), the french...

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Lazarus

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Just think - someone might come after Arch because of what this guy did. That shows how intelligent racists are.
Faith_Warrior

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Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
the french...


What of the French, punk!? Haha *jokingly*
Thatís a good point, I remember a lot of crud said against French people not very long ago, even at this Christian forum (not this one) people were saying dreadful things and a lot of French people left, especially those that still live in France. Luckly IĎm a bit thick skined or IĎd a been flaming those idiots in my ancestral tongue, French (unrelated to French-kissing) hehe. Even Jack in the Box jumped on board with that crud and started to make jokes about French fries and how you should buy his curly fries because of the French connection (unrelated to the movie). This kinda garbage has even become commercialized as you can see.

Keep in mine, Jesus said nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, so if we are truly entering into the end times (unrelated to The Day After Tomorrow movie) this has significance since nation is better translated as nationality or race.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited April 19, 2007).]

ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
I still make fun of the french. and I am also part french (last name is french)

The Americans and the English have been canning on the french for hundreds of years.
I intend to see that this wonderful tradition continues.

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Lazarus

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"Angel" is a French name?

Does anyone feel sympathy for the Korean who did this, may I ask?

Faith_Warrior

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Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
I still make fun of the french. and I am also part french (last name is french)

The Americans and the English have been canning on the french for hundreds of years.
I intend to see that this wonderful tradition continues.


Iím not sure how that makes it right. Racial jokes and the like cause division and certainly is not edifying one bit. It destroys relationships, closes the door to the gospel to be preached and encourages the truly racists people to continue in such ways or for others to become so.

If Billy Graham long ago opened up a crusade with a joke about the Polish, do you think God could have used him so mightily? Graham has preached the gospel of Christ to more people than any other in history, Jesus said that we would do greater things than what they saw or what we read about Him, and Graham certainly demonstrates that by the amount of people he has reached through Christ. But if he long ago even once started off a single crusade with a racial type of joke, how much would it have destroyed the message? How many people in the world would not have made that decision to follow Christ because of what Billy could have said?

Iím not coming down on you about it, but you should certainly give it to prayer and let Jesus change your heart about such idle talk. DonĎt do or not do because of tradition, but because you can see past it and realize by the help of the Lord you can be changed because it certainly is counter productive and as by the example given you may understand it can be destructive. Itís not easy to do, to dispose of those things that cause division, actually it is nearly impossible, but God changes the heart if we let Him do so.

Then again, Billyís message was hindered for some, particularly to the ethnic Jews due to a few anti-Semitic comments when he was supporting Nixon, sadly. That was a very long time ago and he has somewhat apologized since, but it is still something that follows him around and probably caused some to not put their trust in Christ. Itís not just prominent people that are under the magnifying glass, but we all are especially when it has to do with those around us.

As for the situation with what happened in Virginia, sure you can feel sympathy for the guy, he was obviously under the power of a demonic being, he got duped by Satan. Itís the same MO that has happened many time before, like when those two kids opened up their guns at columbine, they were actually hunting Christians, most often Christians were their target. In the Virginia case, he made the same type of intention clear in his manifesto, he mentioned Christians because he too was demonically inspired and probably controlled at that point. There are other examples as well, and I think much of it has to do with taking God out of the school system and replacing it with the religion of Darwinism.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited April 19, 2007).]

bennythebear

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i'm part cherokee, blackfoot, german(last name), irish, welch...and there might be something else. i'm "white" don't get me wrong, but i always check other on the forms that ask me my race.

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Tonnyx

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Posts: 140
From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 08-02-2005
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
it's really the uneducated group that you need to worry about, people act by feeling, instead of reason.

I would tend to disagree that it's one or the other you need to worry more or less about. What we are seeing, in the increase of senseless violence, and so on, is a symptom of people's worldviews. Teach people that they are only made up of matter, and the logical conclusion of that is this: morals are artifical constructs, and nothing I do ultimately matters, because I am only matter; everything else must be an illusion. If that's not a depressing thought, I don't know what is. Many people are finding out the logical conclusions to this presupposition, and they can't live with it, but they can't or won't accept other philosophies.

They may not think of it in these terms, and they may not even realize that this is where their despair is coming from, but if they don't have a worldview that reasonably explains not only physical matter, but also the human spirit, one is more likely to feel deeply troubled.

The guy was an English major. Who knows, maybe he had been reading Nietzsche, or Derrida. I was an English major in college. Reading those guys would have me angry, too, especially if I bought into their worldviews. If you can't refute Derrida's philosophy behind what he's saying, and if you follow it to its ultimate conclusions, you end up with an incredibly meaningless existence.

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it's pronounced "tonics"

ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
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I wasn't saying education cures racism, but rather the types of people get themselves educated, for often than not, will refrain from that type of racism.
condescension is more their thing.


anyhow, about racial/nationality jokes, to a degree lightens an issue that is taken way to seriously. Races are taken way to seriously, people just won't let them go. It seems like it's all people can think about.
a joke here makes them less important and less likely to be an issue. people who can't take jokes are people who take themselves way too seriously. what we do need to watch is that the jokes aren't malicious or one-way. Like the Simpsons, the jokes are spread wide, very few get really offended. I make fun of blacks, whites, latinos and asians. I'll rip on the french, but I also make fun of America, and God knows I love my country. (and after watching Flyboys, the french went up in my book)
the more korean jokes I make, the more korean I feel.
Skin color and national lines don't really matter when determining one's humanity. we need to learn to let go and laugh at it a little.

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Tonnyx

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Posts: 140
From: Indiana, USA
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OK, sorry, I didn't read your post carefully; I was thinking about the shooting, rather than the racism bit, and I didn't realize which issue you were addressing with your comment. Yeah, what's funny though is that my parents (both Korean) are so racist. Not in a mean, hating way, usually. You should hear my dad make fun of Chinese and Japanese people, with his own Korean accent. It's hilarious.

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it's pronounced "tonics"

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
very few get really offended.


But what profit is there to offend anyone in this way? Itís one thing to offend people with the gospel of Christ, that is bound to happen and not a bad thing, some people get offended when presented with any truth, there is not a whole lot you can do but pray about this which is actually the first thing we should always do. But making course gestures/jokes about people is not a good idea, it offends people, some people even, and makes whatever else you have to say at any point after that become null and void to them.

Eph. 5:4 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.

CPUFreak91

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Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by crazyishone:
Here's one of the cliches I mentioned before:

If maybe a few more people in those rooms had guns, could the death toll have been lessened? I believe so.



I also believe so. But I think people should be more careful. Perhaps some stressful training the US Army soldier go through (to prevent that scenario that the gun control advocate mentioned)?

quote:
Originally posted by crazyishone:
Somebody who doesn't live in America: How do you feel about gun control?


I have no real problem with the idea of gun control, nor do I feel that the lenient gun control in the states (compared to other countries) is a bad thing. It all depends on the person carrying the gun. What would they do in a life threatening situation? How would they handle it? What consequences would they face for any mistakes they make?

Here in Guatemala at age 15, with the right connections, I could easily get a pistol (illegally of course). Someone is shot and killed almost every day. In early 2006, just 600ft from my house, some people were killed by an AK-47 in a drive by shooting (AFAIK civilians aren't allowed to own automatic rifles, or any rifle for that matter) because some guy was mad that his victim had cheated him in a business deal several years ago.

Just recently some Honduran diplomats were killed and their killers were placed in jail. But the next day some other group of people broke into the jail and killed the killers. Like I said... it all depends on the person carrying the gun and if they can handle the responsibilities and stress.

Personally, I want to get a concealed weapon license.

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[This message has been edited by CPUFreak91 (edited April 20, 2007).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by CPUFreak91:

Personally, I want to get a concealed weapon license.


Ditto.

And my brother purchased a 9MM pistol at a flea market when he was sixteen - legally of course. America is the land of the free all right...

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
I will never carry a concealed gun. I take killing a little more seriously than that. If it was just me walking down a dark alley at night and I got jumped, I'd rather lose my wallet and get beat up than condemn a lost soul to hell. When Jesus was being unjustly murdered, he could have called a legion of angels to his aid, levitated off the cross and made people's heads explode, but He didn't. Both He and Stephen, the first martyr, forgave those who were murdering them and did not lift a finger to defend themselves.

Now, if I got physically attacked, I would defend myself or run away (if severely outnumbered, or they had deadly implements), but I wouldn't want to take someone's life, even in defense of my own. If possible, I would subdue my attacker, call the cops, and share the gospel with them until the cops showed up.

I believe we are supposed to love our enemies, not murder them. Tough love is part of that, but I don't think it includes blowing peoples brains out with a handgun.

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+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
quote:
But what profit is there to offend anyone in this way?

to break bubbles. people who are so uptight about "racial inequality" preach so hard that they reinforce ideas of racial separation in both them and others (I'm referring heavily to sociology professors). making light of these distinctions makes them unimportant. A hateful joke, yes, makes things worse, but friendly banter soothes it over. I make fun of the french, but do I hate them? no. I tease french girls for having hairy armpits, but guess what? I think they're hot (atleast the hot ones are).

people, honestly, need to get offended a little more. it shocks them out of their little boxes. non-malicious racial jokes can shock people and diminish those subliminal racial lines. honestly, these jokes have only benefited me.
I'm surrounded by people judging by race (affirmative action, who's oppressing who, etc). I used to be color-blinded when I was young. Now, all I hear is race and racism and now one of the first things I notice is race. This helps me from taking that seriously. It has also helped me to be more proud of my korean heritage. I never identified myself as asian until I start making asian jokes.


haha, tonnyx, yeah. Koreans (and most asians) can be racist like that. koreans can stick to themselves alot, too. old school asians prefer their children to marry in their own nationality, but that doesn't hold up so well. They usually make exceptions for other asians and whites. or if their rich.

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

CPUFreak91

Member

Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by steveth45:
I take killing a little more seriously than that. If it was just me walking down a dark alley at night and I got jumped, I'd rather lose my wallet and get beat up than condemn a lost soul to hell.


Note that I never mentioned self defense with a gun by killing. If I did get jumped and deemed it safe, I'd use martial arts on him. If I were chasing a crazed student who's shooting a bunch of random people, I'd wound him.

------------------
All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

"Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh."

"Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala.

My Programming and Hacker/Geek related Blog

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
I'm not too sure on your gun laws, but am aware of the 2nd Amendment(?), the right to bear arms. Without getting into a stupid debate about the rights and wrongs of having guns, i'll tell you a bit about the UK.

Over here you have to hold a license for anything > air rifle (be it .22 or .177). Now I hold a gun license and have 2 rifles, which I use for pheasant, rabbit shooting at weekends. However if you are ever referred to a Psychiatrist or even touch anti-depressants, your license is revoked and the Police collect your guns. This has had a positive effect, in that gun crime isn't such a problem here (a number of isolated cases are too be expected). Knife problems on the other hand are quite bad here right now.

At the end of the day, I believe we have a great policy, in that nobody with mental health problems, or anybody that has ever been on anti-depressants for whatever reason, would find it hard to get hold of a gun.

Anyways this is not to spark a debate. But I think the US would be wise to adopt such a policy, if it doesn't already?

------------------
"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
That will almost assuredly spark a debate, D-SIPL. (I hope not, though)

That sounds nice, CPU - but you can't always aim for someone's leg or arm and make it all nice and clean like in the movies.

I think Christians carry "Love your enemy" way too far these days...

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
quote:

I'm not too sure on your gun laws, but am aware of the 2nd Amendment(?), the right to bear arms. Without getting into a stupid debate about the rights and wrongs of having guns, i'll tell you a bit about the UK.


i don't think guns and Christianity go together, as the matter of fact no kind of self-defense is not acceptable to Christianity. i will not enter into a debate or an argument over these but if you don't get what i say all you have to do is ask.

------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
quote:
Originally posted by D-SIPL:
Over here you have to hold a license for anything > air rifle (be it .22 or .177). Now I hold a gun license and have 2 rifles, which I use for pheasant, rabbit shooting at weekends. However if you are ever referred to a Psychiatrist or even touch anti-depressants, your license is revoked and the Police collect your guns. This has had a positive effect, in that gun crime isn't such a problem here (a number of isolated cases are too be expected). Knife problems on the other hand are quite bad here right now.

At the end of the day, I believe we have a great policy, in that nobody with mental health problems, or anybody that has ever been on anti-depressants for whatever reason, would find it hard to get hold of a gun.

Anyways this is not to spark a debate. But I think the US would be wise to adopt such a policy, if it doesn't already?


I think that is a fantastic policy!

I doubt the US has adopted it, the shooter at VT was considered mentally ill and was on anti-depressants (so I heard), yet he still got a gun. But then that could've just been the state's policy, or lack-thereof.

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
hey did the guy get the gun from a store?? i thought the serial number on the gun was removed. my guess is/was that he bought it off the streets.

------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
1. Itís right to bear arms, not simply right to own arms. Yes itís our constitutional right but only on paper now. There is no right to bear arms any longer here(i.e. walk into Wallmart with a loaded sidearm), only a possibility to gain a permit to carry a concealed weapon. No offense, but I really donít want the US to become like Europe, we came here to be unlike Europe and it has worked very well in the past. Our bigist problem is with people here thinking we should be more like Europe, Canada orÖ Cuba! But yes, to carry arms is a right or should be a right by default for any US Citizen, I have no problem with denial of it but only on a case per case basis such as due to mental health or prier felony convictions.


2. Luke 22:35 And He said to them, ďWhen I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?Ē So they said, ďNothing.Ē 36 Then He said to them, ďBut now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ĎAnd He was numbered with the transgressors. For the things concerning Me have an end.Ē 38 So they said, ďLord, look, here are two swords.Ē And He said to them, ďIt is enough.Ē


Ok, let the molten flaming glob of debate begin! J/k

crazyishone

Member

Posts: 1685
From:
Registered: 08-25-2004
CPUFreak91, I'm sure you're familiar with the human anatomy. There is no "I'll just wound him". If a bullet hits a body, there's no guarantee it wont kill the person. A "leg" isn't just a 'non-oneshot-kill' zone. It's got arteries and veins running through it. You can die from getting hit in the leg. Even if its "only a flesh wound", you can still die from blood poisoning if you aren't cared for properly or quickly enough.

If you've got somebody cornered and you can shoot them where you choose from a relatively close range, perhaps you can control how you "wound" them. But chasing a person is a far different story: he's moving, you're moving, its hard to aim, what you're going to hit is changing with each step he takes.
"I meant to hit his arm!" ...well now theres a bullet in his upper back near the shoulder, and we all know the abundance of blood running through there, not to mention internal organs.

If you're going to pull a gun on somebody you need to be mentally prepared to kill them. If an individual has done something that merits you pulling a gun on him, it is (arguably and situation depending) more humane to kill him. Kill him now, or let him spend years in prison suffering, or the rest of his life as a paraplegic. (worst case scenario, of course.)

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ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
who says you can't get a gun illegally?
probably easier than getting it legally.

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Way easier.

Spade, btw - not arguing but my opinion is that Christians and self-defense do go together and nothing wrong with Christians owning guns.

I think just plain ignorance(and I don't mean that as an insult) is responsible for alot of the gun control hysteria. People think "Well - the government can just outlaw guns and there'll be no more problems!"

Yeah - nice - but it never works in real life. Criminals never buy guns legally anyway...

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
People don't need guns to kill people. What did people use before the gun?

[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited April 21, 2007).]

crazyishone

Member

Posts: 1685
From:
Registered: 08-25-2004
Well, Lazarus, it can probably be agreed that ignorance is the source of most problems.

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CPUFreak91

Member

Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by crazyishone:
CPUFreak91, I'm sure you're familiar with the human anatomy.


Hehe. Yes.

quote:
There is no "I'll just wound him". If a bullet hits a body, there's no guarantee it wont kill the person. A "leg" isn't just a 'non-oneshot-kill' zone. It's got arteries and veins running through it. You can die from getting hit in the leg.


I agree, but compare the chances of surviving, say, a leg wound. They're a lot larger than a shot to the head.


quote:
Even if its "only a flesh wound", you can still die from blood poisoning if you aren't cared for properly or quickly enough.


"What? It's only a flesh wound" -- Some black knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail

quote:
But chasing a person is a far different story: he's moving, you're moving, its hard to aim, what you're going to hit is changing with each step he takes.


Indeed. With proper training though, one might reduce the chances of a fatal shot while chasing a person.

quote:

Kill him now, or let him spend years in prison suffering, or the rest of his life as a paraplegic. (worst case scenario, of course.)


Then there's always the question of where's he's going when you've killed him. If he were to spend the rest of his life as a paraplegic, he could at least turn his life around and dare I say... even be happy?

------------------
All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

"Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh."

"Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala.

My Programming and Hacker/Geek related Blog

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
hey, no one can be happy unless they can do this

it kept me from hanging myself


------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited April 22, 2007).]

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by crazyishone:
it is (arguably and situation depending) more humane to kill him. Kill him now, or let him spend years in prison suffering, or the rest of his life as a paraplegic. (worst case scenario, of course.)

Mmmmm... yes, Kill him, Kill him now

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
hey, no one can be happy unless they can do this

it kept me from hanging myself


What's that guy doing? (Besides slipping and falling into the creek)

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Love the picture FW. I think guns should be allowed to a certain point, if any citizen was allowed a bazooka, well, 1. I'd run, 2. I'd hide, 3. I'd be mad at the government.

I think its okay to own something large like a shotgun, but only carry a pistol, why allow the pistol? Well for female self defense, or male for that matter.

------------------
MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
quote:

Love the picture FW. I think guns should be allowed to a certain point, if any citizen was allowed a bazooka, well, 1. I'd run, 2. I'd hide, 3. I'd be mad at the government.
I think its okay to own something large like a shotgun, but only carry a pistol, why allow the pistol? Well for female self defense, or male for that matter

guns and Christians don't go together ,no type of self-defense is allowed in Christianity.

always give the other chick and be as wise as a serpent but as harmless as a dove.

if you are in danger all you have to do is call the name of JESUS.

i have heard of bullets changing their ways when Christians call the name of JESUS.

nothing or no-one can hurt you as long as you call the name of JESUS.

no type of war or killing or even harm is acceptable ,if you want mercy from JESUS you have to have mercy on others, no mercy for the merciless.

------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Well, that's just your interpretation of what Jesus said.

Spade, do you think it's possible for me to kill someone in self-defense and be a real Christian?

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
no,unless you repent

EDIT: and that's not my opinion that's the truth.
------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

[This message has been edited by spade89 (edited April 24, 2007).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
How can you be so sure? There are so many different opinions on what alot of the Bible means - how can you be sure your "interpretation"(which is what it is) is the one and only correct one?

I mean - Spade, say I know a friend(and a Christian) that shot and killed someone attempting to rape her - and she saw no reason to repent of that. (This is a hypothetical example)

According to you she'd go to hell, correct?

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
big words you got there.

so killing someone out of defense of, oh, say, your children would be wrong?

and no, jumping in front of the bullet does not constitute saving your kids.
Considering that the one shot muskets are now out of fashion and a pistol clip typically holds 11 shots.

so you'll just call on the name of Jesus and he'll magically just keep all the bullets from touching? like some genie in a bottle? He CAN do it, but will He always be at our beck and call?
What if God requires that you be the tool to save your children?
Don't let faith be an excuse for non-action, but rather couple it with action. I'm not saying your making excuses, but sometimes we need to walk out and do it, through faith in Jesus.

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
quote:
Originally posted by spade89:
guns and Christians don't go together ,no type of self-defense is allowed in Christianity.


And pry tell, what scriptural basis is this drawn from?

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by LAVA:
And pry tell, what scriptural basis is this drawn from?


hah I was just going to ask the same thing. Good to see LAVA with the good questions as always

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
I believe Spade referred to "Turn the other cheek" in that post.
Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
I believe Spade referred to "Turn the other cheek" in that post.


Oh, ok itís been said by many, many times.

You know what striking the cheek means, right? Itís the same today in Israel as it was 2000 years ago. Striking someoneís cheek is an insult, instead of giving someone the bird they slap them on the face. It is very much considered an insult in Israel today. So it is saying, if someone insults you donít insult them back (i.e. slapping them). Has nothing to do with self-defense apart from insults.

To expand this even more, to turn the cheek is simply not offering yourself as a target again. If th eperson is right handed and strikes a person on the left cheek with palm and that person changes the position of their head than the angle would require the person to either change their position to have a target again or to strike them in the face which would be more than an insult. So beyond simply not trading insults for insult one is best to position themselves so the person will need to go out of their way for an attempt to slap or insult again.

To associate turning the other cheek to gun control is a very big leap out of the context of the text. There is nothing spiritualized here, scriptures are best studied at face value rather than spiritualized into something else that it is not.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited April 24, 2007).]

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:

Good to see LAVA with the good questions as always


Why, thank you

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
Also note, at the trial of Jesus when they struck him he didnít offer the other cheek but rebuked him! You see, they werenít just insulting him, but they were planning to kill him.
spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
lazarus:

quote:

How can you be so sure? There are so many different opinions on what alot of the Bible means - how can you be sure your "interpretation"(which is what it is) is the one and only correct one?
I mean - Spade, say I know a friend(and a Christian) that shot and killed someone attempting to rape her - and she saw no reason to repent of that. (This is a hypothetical example)

According to you she'd go to hell, correct?



i don't like arguments but since you asked a question that could mislead others i would answer you.

i am absolutley sure about my faith not you not satan not anyone except the maker of the law can change my mind about what i said because what i said is based on the Gospel and paul says even if an angel from heaven teaches you a other-wise he is to be accursed.

you are saying something contrary to the Gospel.

take a look at what it says on the BIBLE here:

Luke 10:19
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

to see the whole chapter here is the link:
[URL=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter]http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter[/UR L]


ok, you made a hypothetical situation where a girl was about to get raped and she shot the rapist.

well all she had to do was call the name of JESUS and the demon inside the rapist would either scream and leave the person or run the other way.

here is a witnessing(or what i remember) i saw on tbn(channel 14 or trinity brodcasting network):

this fairly elderly women was about to get into her car in a parking lot when this man forcefuly takes her hostage and starts driving and i don't remember most of what she said happened but some where she called the name of JESUS and the man jumped out of the car and run away. if i am not mistaken this man was some sort of serial rapist but i am not sure.


i could find out and tell you more witnessings , whenever a person is about to commit violence he doesn't do it on his own but with a demon help.

if you could have faith and just call the name of JESUS nothing will happen to you .

no kind of violence or accident or even disease can either kill you or harm you seriously if you are a true believer in JESUS.

here is a rethorical question:

did JESUS fight back when they were about to crucify him on the cross??

answer:no.


why? because it was the will of the FATHER not to do so but to be crucified on that cross.

well JESUS commanded us to be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves, he also promised to be with us and to protect us from the enemy.

he said when a man hits you on the right chick you should give him your left.

and the BIBLE also says to be crucified on the cross everyday.

i am not saying here that i am being crucified on the cross every day but
i try to keep his commandments and i know i will be more than hated for following his commandments.


the thing that hypothetical person repent should forgive the rapist as soon as she can.


btw,i am also agains any kind of military force ,and any kind of war,
it amazes me when people say GOD bless our troops. do people who say that live in the OLD TESTAMENT ??

if you are not alowed to hit someone back when he hits you how is it that you are allowed to hit him before he hits you in self defense.

you are saying we should hit someones right chick if we think they are about to hit our right chick(aka self defense)

but JESUS says even if they hit you ,you should not only give them foriveness you should give them the other chick to hit.

archangel:

EDIT:

quote:

big words you got there.
so killing someone out of defense of, oh, say, your children would be wrong?

and no, jumping in front of the bullet does not constitute saving your kids.
Considering that the one shot muskets are now out of fashion and a pistol clip typically holds 11 shots.

so you'll just call on the name of Jesus and he'll magically just keep all the bullets from touching? like some genie in a bottle? He CAN do it, but will He always be at our beck and call?
What if God requires that you be the tool to save your children?
....


even if a nuclear bomb explodes right next to you and you call the name of JESUS he will give you protection, he has all power in heaven and on earth.

JESUS does not require you to personally defend anyone,not even yourself,
JESUS does not contradict himself.

quote:

Don't let faith be an excuse for non-action, but rather couple it with action. I'm not saying your making excuses, but sometimes we need to walk out and do it, through faith in Jesus.


i don't like arguing if you have any quesinons on what i said please fell free to ask, and don't mistake obedience for weakness.


p.s.:

guys please don't be argumentative and defensive about either this or any other topic please be honest with GOD, be sincere and kneel down and pray about this topic ,what you say wouldn't change a single thing about what i think. don't take the simplicity out of Christianity and please please pray about this and i assure you he will show you what i mean.

i use to think the same way until i got proven wrong and the LORD showed me other wise .

i don't have time now but if guys want i will show you.

it seems as if you guys are defensive ,if you are there no-one attacking you ,but if you are seeking for the truth i am hth.
------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

[This message has been edited by spade89 (edited April 24, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by spade89 (edited April 24, 2007).]

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
What about the people in Sudan who say the name of Jesus, they're still shot, or taken prisoners. Yes Jesus has the power to, but He doesn't always. What about the girl who said Jesus when a high school student put a gun to her head, she's still dead. I believe in supernatural influence, but I also believe in self-defense and self-action.

------------------
MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

CPUFreak91

Member

Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by spade89:
Luke 10:19
I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.


Not meaning to argue, or pick a fight, but what about the first martyr Steven? He didn't call out to God for help and yet he was stoned to death.

What about the thousands of martyrs since Steven who have called out to God and yet were killed? Many of those martyrs had enough faith to make a mountain out of a mustard seed.

I think it's up to God whether or not he will save you from physical harm whether you call out or not. And if you do call out to him but aren't protected from physical harm and you have a lot of faith, you probably won't complain because you know that God knows what's best.

------------------
All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

"Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh."

"Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala.

My Programming and Hacker/Geek related Blog

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
quote:

What about the people in Sudan who say the name of Jesus, they're still shot, or taken prisoners.....

persecution is to be excpected but if you believe in self-defense and hurt other people then i don't belive you would be protected yourself.

about the people in sudan, well i don't care if you are in sudan ,in nigeria,in india,china canada ,france ,it doesn't even matter if you are on the moon.

if you are a child of GOD and you call the name of the Great King JESUS, he will protect you.

if you are working for GOD and if you have given him your life then he will protect you .

quote:

Yes Jesus has the power to, but He doesn't always. What about the girl who said Jesus when a high school student put a gun to her head, she's still dead. I believe in supernatural influence, but I also believe in self-defense and self-action.



what ?????

if JESUS said whosoever does the will of my FATHER is my brother and mother. JESUS will protect his bretheren.

cpufreak:

quote:

Not meaning to argue, or pick a fight, but what about the first martyr Steven? He didn't call out to God for help and yet he was stoned to death.



if you are arguing then say so and i'll stop posting to your replies, but if you want an explanation, steven died because it was the will of GOD ,
the same way JESUS died because it was the will of his FATHER and he obeyed it.

and i don't think steven threw rocks back at the people in self-defense, he died as the killed him because it was the will of GOD.

what i am saying is even if a person tries to kill a Christian unless it is the will of GOD he will fail, don't you know that the LORD has sent thousands of angels on the left and right of his followers.

if the LORD says die for my sake then you should do it.

you shouldn't disobey and fight back.

quote:

What about the thousands of martyrs since Steven who have called out to God and yet were killed? Many of those martyrs had enough faith to make a mountain out of a mustard seed.


they died for the name of the LORD they didn't fight back.
quote:

I think it's up to God whether or not he will save you from physical harm whether you call out or not. And if you do call out to him but aren't protected from physical harm and you have a lot of faith, you probably won't complain because you know that God knows what's best.


yes it's up to GOD to save you or not but if the LORD tells you to die for his names sake again you should. if the enemy tries to harm you and you call the name of JESUS he will protect you .
but if you are thinking of fighting back then you are thinking of disobeying him if you do so then you are not his follower,if you knowingly disobey his commandment to save yourself from pain then you judge yourself and tell me what that makes you?

still people what is of the darkness is of the darkness and children of the Light don't follow the ways of the darkness.

again you guys are trying to argue with me.why?


the whole concept of "self" should disappear form a perfect Christians life, as a Christian i try to imitate Christ and Christ was never selfish and he always thought for others when he needed something he prayed for it and he got it.

even when people tried to stone him he always escaped until his time came, he neven attacked the people back,but he could have.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

CPUFreak91

Member

Posts: 2337
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Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by spade89:
what i am saying is even if a person tries to kill a Christian unless it is the will of GOD he will fail, don't you know that the LORD has sent thousands of angels on the left and right of his followers.

Ok that answers the questions I had about your opinions and beliefs on being protected by God when I read your earlier post. Thanks for clarifying.

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[This message has been edited by CPUFreak91 (edited April 25, 2007).]