but i don't think that matters anyways because most people who do great things in u.s. history like abraham lincoln,benjamin franklin, eisenhour,harry truman,george washington,etc... even though their religion was christian they were no preachers, society acknowleged their political and social accomplishments not their religious accomplishments, and we must keep in mind that even if a person is not a christian that doesn't mean he is incapable of doing good things,there are billions of good non-christians out there that do good things every day, the reason there is a holiday in his name is because he brought true justice and equality in america, i mean can you imagine what kind of a world we would be living in if he didn't do what he did. the holiday is in rememberance of his actions.nobody said he was a great man because he was a christian ,he was a great man because gave his life in persuit of an equal world,in which we now live in.

most people take for granted the equality they have today even if you are white can you honestly call yourself a christian while socially,morally and economicaly opressing other people just because they don't look like you?
if he didn't do what he did most americans would still have been racist.

and i don't know what you think but you can't be a racist and a christian at the same time ,that's like trying to be a water and a fire at the same time.

that means if it wasn't for him most of us would still be sinners, in a way he saved us from ourselves.

and incase you don't know this:
1 John 2:
9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.

------------------
Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

[This message has been edited by spade89 (edited January 15, 2007).]

quote:

---

- My Quote -
I know he's a great man who stood for a just cause and his efforts made a difference for the better... but after viewing some articles and some of his writings and quotes, I for the first time am forced to ask this question. Was Martin Luther King Jr. a Christian? Did he believe in Jesus as his Lord and Savior? Did he preach the gospel of Jesus Christ? Just wondering what anyone else knows on this topic. Any thoughts and opinions are welcome as well.

---

I can't stress enough how thankful I am for the efforts of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. But what if he had preached Jesus Christ? Would America be different than it is today? Maybe he wouldn't have even been heard... or maybe the huge prejudice population could have been convicted and perhaps there could have been a nation wide revival(?), if you give people the Truth (Jesus) the prejudice will leave also... but if Jesus is not what you give them... then... it won't last... not the way that God intends for it to... Were people saved? Was a nation really set free? Or did it also help to launch the program of equal rights and freedom of speech for everything under the sun? Not only of race (which I am thankful for) but also of

(1)Any belief as long as you're strong in it. No matter how evidently false it may be.

(2)no difference in genders - Radical Femenism. Women can do everything that men can do.

(3)sexual "preference" - gays and lesbians "marrying", men seeking marriage with animals(!), men and women seeking group marriages.

Are people abusing or taking the equal rights campain to ridiculous levels or what?

What am I saying here? I guess the bottom line is Jesus Christ... no matter how great a cause... the bottom line should be that Jesus Christ is God... and the salvation of mankind. America, Civil Rights efforts, Presidents, Kings, Priests, the accumulation of knowledge, money, technology, or anything or anyone else can not save the world... only Jesus can.

------------------
We better trash our idols if we want to be
In the army of the Lord
And the greatest idol is you and me,
We better get on the threshing floor

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited January 16, 2007).]

Btw one there's one interesting thing about americal civil war and the fact that freeing slaves for not one of the original goals of the war. But they had the idea of equal right from the Bible of course.

------------------
1Jo 2:9-10 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

------------------
MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

------------------
We better trash our idols if we want to be
In the army of the Lord
And the greatest idol is you and me,
We better get on the threshing floor

there was no school yesterday because of him

------------------
Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

------------------
MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I find it bad that he is the only person celebrated in the US as a national holiday. While Christ is intentionally taken out. But this country supports very liberal and unchristian views lately so the odds of MLKjr being a Christian are not so likely. Even Washington got taken out of the calendar which goes to show where this country is headed. It is sad that the vast majority of blacks an manipulated by secular liberals to vote for unchristian things. Some blacks know what's going on but the ones that are presented the most are the ones that are against Christianity.

He was seen more as an activist to join races and while all Christian sects were attacking him the Orthodox churches archbishop was the only one to march for people to be united to get along. I don't think it accomplished much since after the 50's all liberal views come in and the country went down. Many states are segregated and many black communities are high in crime and black on black crime despite the news doesn't mention it.

The news of the time said that the FBI heard in on his fornication with other women and saying he was doing it for god. But that would be a contradiction. Maybe he believed he was acting Christian like so many today but not so much to others.

He instigated and started violence but preached non violence. Preached unity but mostly targeted one side. He sided with the communist party which the party attacked Christianity. He plagiarized (stole) most of the words of his famous speech and society perpetuates it.

A country founded on morals is encouraged now on immorality.
I think he is just as Christian as most Christians. I think there better black people and not Obama, Jackson, or Sharpton. Allen Keys is a good guy and a good Christian and too bad most blacks didn't vote for him but many obvious reasons. I think people in Illinois are restarted to vote for Obama than Keys.

Anyway celebrating a day for him and having a black history month doesn't show equality or Christianity. I think he means well and wants to be a Christian but took the wrong path like so many. In the end he did more bad than good and not mentioned for many obvious reason.

Blacks are more prejudice than whites now, and you have black football stars saying they would feel better with a black coach, singer like Tina Turner saying whites are crackers, Oprah saying she makes a school for only black women and has no obligation to whites, have an all black channel, and the list goes on. Imagine if a white said that then all hell would break loose. I know plenty of good blacks and some were born in placed like Jamaica and think that many blacks in America are very bad people compared to other blacks that live in Canada, Caribbean, or some in Europe. A good black break away form black culture and goes with Christian culture, just like a good white breaks away from white culture and goes with Christian culture, but some find Christianity a white religion which is silly, and some find Christmas a white holiday and they make a Quanza to compete with Christmas. Anyone that celebrates that just goes against Christianity, and the people that helped make it were not black or Christian but secularists to sway black’s way from Christianity.

As for civil war Lincoln wanted them free but didn't want blacks in the US since he said they would not mix well because of many differences and many blacks have shown that to be the case at times. He wanted to ship them back to their homeland but some disagreed with many of his views and shot him. Odd that many people don't know that but just like other things in history only one side is presented to sway people to a liberal unchristian agenda.

If MLKjr had a dream despite it being plagiarized it was just a dream just like the American dream how over 85% of people are in debt no matter what color. he did help make white guilt which you have silly people throwing money in a black hole called Africa which the kings and warlords take the money to oppressed there people more to get more money. Africa is a great place for secularists to make money in the diamond mine, while Christians get slaughter every day and some blacks in the US defend it saying what goes around comes around which that doesn't show equality. Even the black cops in Africa fear how blacks are acting and need psychological help of the brutal racist murders going on against whites, which thanks to MLK blacks and whites in Africa live in hell. The US doesn't help them since Semitic secularists make money form the diamond mines, so everything is stable since money is made by leaving it in chaos but places like the middle easy and instigated to have a war since money it to be made. The only color that matters is the color green, and since that is inflated too much then it will be back to gold. lol

I would prefer a bill Cosby day than a MLKjr day, or a Christian history month than a black history month.

Bill Cosby would be a better Christian despite him doing many unchristian things which many do not know of, but he did sum it up to say that it is like driving and he hits a pot hole, and he experienced that the pot hold it their and not good and warns others not to go the road he took. He is considered racist by black communities but he seems to be the only black to try to push moral Christian values since he knows that pushing for Christianity will push for equality and not the other way around like MLK did to push for equality without Christianity. A lot of black go against Cosby and attack him, kind of like the 2 comedians Eddy Murphy and Richard prayer how they insult Cosby sine he told them not to use curses.

Cosby said
"Christians I don't understand," Cosby said. "I understand Christianity. I understand God. Jesus I understand."
Cosby said Muslims have done a much better job than Christians, for example, in chasing out drug dealers.
"You embarrass God when you don't move," Cosby said. "Christians need to find out what the problem is" and address it, he said."

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited January 17, 2007).]

Ralph Reed claims that King’s "indispensable genius" provided "the vision and leadership that renewed and made crystal clear the vital connection between religion and politics." He proudly admitted that the Christian Coalition "adopted many elements of King’s style and tactics." The pro-life group, Operation Rescue, often compared their struggle against abortion to King’s struggle against segregation. In a speech entitled The Conservative Virtues of Dr. Martin Luther King, Bill Bennet described King, as "not primarily a social activist, he was primarily a minister of the Christian faith, whose faith informed and directed his political beliefs."

Both King’s public stands and personal behavior makes the comparison between King and the Religious Right questionable.

FBI surveillance showed that King had dozens of extramarital affairs. Although many of the pertinent records are sealed, several agents who watched observed him engage in many questionable acts including buying prostitutes with SCLC money. Ralph Abernathy, who King called "the best friend I have in the world," substantiated many of these charges in his autobiography, And the Walls Came Tumbling Down. It is true that a man’s private life is mostly his business. However, most conservatives vehemently condemned Jesse Jackson when news of his illegitimate son came out, and claimed he was unfit to be a minister.

King also took stands that most in the Christian Right would disagree with. When asked about the Supreme Court’s decision to ban school prayer, King responded,

I endorse it. I think it was correct. Contrary to what many have said, it sought to outlaw neither prayer nor belief in god. In a pluralistic society such as ours, who is to determine what prayer shall be spoken and by whom? Legally, constitutionally or otherwise, the state certainly has no such right.

While King died before the Roe vs. Wade decision, and, to the best of my knowledge, made no comments on abortion, he was an ardent supporter of Planned Parenthood. He even won their Margaret Sanger Award in 1966 and had his wife give a speech entitled Family Planning – A Special and Urgent Concern which he wrote. In the speech, he did not compare the civil rights movement to the struggle of Christian Conservatives, but he did say "there is a striking kinship between our movement and Margaret Sanger's early efforts.""
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/epstein9.html

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

i never heard of him stealing any words,in trying to reply for this topic i googled for stuff that might speak against martin luther king jr.'s christianity but i didn't find anything that says he stole a topic,if you can, can you give us a proof or reference warsong?

i know that he did side with the communist party and even a homosexual, but as they say"Enemy of my enemy is my friend",that shows you that he wasn't a christian but still he did what he did and we live in a better world,as a human he did many things wrong but the people are celebrating the things he did right.and true he is just as christian as most people who say they are christians,as for better black people i don't think anyone fought for his cause and gave his life like he did he is a man to be admired by by people of all races,if only he fought for his religion just as much.
in the end he did more good than bad,he didn't do anything bad that most people today don't but he did many great things in his life unfortunately all it takes is one wrong thing to go to hell.

black people are more prejudice than white people today that is because there are still lots of white racist people today,the scars of racism don't go away that quick,there are still lots of racist white people,i live in texas and i know what i am talking about the racist people are mostly older,and i wouldn't blame those players for wanting a black coach.
you can't excpect black people to suddenly forgive all the racism and slavery of 400+ years ,black people don't owe anything to white people but white people owe a lot,many black people in america are worse than black people elsewhere but so are white people,the thing is in america white people see black people as different and black people see white people as different,but in other places black people see white people as having different culture and white people see black people as having a different culture.

if a person sees christianity as a white or black religion then he doesn't know anything about christianity,christ was born a jew and he was born to save all people,as warsong pointed out ethiopia as an african nation traces it roots back to creation as the matter of fact the first country i saw in the bible was ethiopia on the second page and looking it up in www.biblegateway.com i found more matches than i excpected, and if you didn't know lots of people believe that the ark of the covenant is in ethiopia, i just found this on google http://www.christianforums.com/t1878714-the-arc-is-in-ethiopia-proofs-and-facts-which-prooof.html

as for civil war lincoln was probably more racist than the people
he fought against, he fought mostly for power,and actually wanted to
deport all the freed slaves,that's how the nation of liberia was formed.

white people had it coming when they colonized a country that is not
theirs if the white people in africa get killed that is wrong and i don't
think the gov't there supports it, but africa is not a black whole everyday over 1900+ people(take or give a few) die in 3rd world countries just because they don't have anything to eat, and everyday 90% of african children go to bed hungry, and the average african gets a dollar a day,
and this is all because of the white peoples(of that time) desire to conquer and steal a land that is not theirs,you can trace-back any problem
africa has to colonization or colonization attempts or racism,even if i am wrong and white people owe nothing to africans,it is morally incorrect to
sit by and watch people die of silly things like those i mentioned while you have money to spare,Africa is definetly not a black hole,ofcourse if you give it to the wrong people it is there are many aid organizations out there who actually make a difference like the world food programme,the red cross or doctors without borders, if you give your money to non-govermental organizations then you are doing some good but if you give it to a goverment then there is no way of assuring your money will go where desired
and keep in mind that most african nations are christian nations,13% of catholics are africans and many african nations like uganda are accepting protestants and if you are orthodox like warsong there is always ethiopia.

i don't know anything about bill cosby so i'll not comment on that .

at the end racism is just silly, a racist man is just like a man,who looks at two identical cofee cups and says he can tell whether the cofee is hot or cold.

the cure for racism is knowing there is no difference,if you greet a white man by saying hello,and a black man by saying "what's up bro!!" then that is prejudice that means you judge peoples characters based on their skin,the person under the skin is what matters not the skin.

mlk jr. helped cure this blindness that had caught america,whatever he did the man is dead and i see no point in attacking or supporting the things he did in his personal life,in his public life he did one of the greatest accomplishments in u.s. history and he very well deserves a day of his own.

BTW, is it right to call days like mlkjr. day a holy day,they definetly are not holy .

------------------
Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

i never heard of him stealing any words,in trying to reply for this topic i googled for stuff that might speak against martin luther king jr.'s Christianity but i didn't find anything that says he stole a topic,if you can, can you give us a proof or reference warsong?

i know that he did side with the communist party and even a homosexual, but as they say"Enemy of my enemy is my friend",that shows you that he wasn't a christian but still he did what he did and we live in a better world,as a human he did many things wrong but the people are celebrating the things he did right.and true he is just as christian as most people who say they are christians,as for better black people i don't think anyone fought for his cause and gave his life like he did he is a man to be admired by by people of all races,if only he fought for his religion just as much.
in the end he did more good than bad,he didn't do anything bad that most people today don't but he did many great things in his life unfortunately all it takes is one wrong thing to go to hell.

black people are more prejudice than white people today that is because there are still lots of white racist people today,the scars of racism don't go away that quick,there are still lots of racist white people,i live in texas and i know what i am talking about the racist people are mostly older,and i wouldn't blame those players for wanting a black coach.
you can't excpect black people to suddenly forgive all the racism and slavery of 400+ years ,black people don't owe anything to white people but white people owe a lot,many black people in america are worse than black people elsewhere but so are white people,the thing is in america white people see black people as different and black people see white people as different,but in other places black people see white people as having different culture and white people see black people as having a different culture.

if a person sees christianity as a white or black religion then he doesn't know anything about christianity,christ was born a jew and he was born to save all people,as warsong pointed out ethiopia as an african nation traces it roots back to creation as the matter of fact the first country i saw in the bible was ethiopia on the second page and looking it up in www.biblegateway.com i found more matches than i excpected, and if you didn't know lots of people believe that the ark of the covenant is in ethiopia, i just found this on google http://www.christianforums.com/t1878714-the-arc-is-in-ethiopia-proofs-and-fac ts-which-prooof.html

as for civil war lincoln was probably more racist than the people
he fought against, he fought mostly for power,and actually wanted to
deport all the freed slaves,that's how the nation of liberia was formed.

white people had it coming when they colonized a country that is not
theirs if the white people in africa get killed that is wrong and i don't
think the gov't there supports it, but africa is not a black hole everyday over 1900+ people(take or give a few) die in 3rd world countries just because they don't have anything to eat, and everyday 90% of african children go to bed hungry, and the average african gets a dollar a day,
and this is all because of the white peoples(of that time) desire to conquer and steal a land that is not theirs,you can trace-back any problem
africa has to colonization or colonization attempts or racism,even if i am wrong and white people owe nothing to africans,it is morally incorrect to
sit by and watch people die of silly things like those i mentioned while you have money to spare,Africa is definetly not a black hole,ofcourse if you give it to the wrong people then you might be doing more harm than good. is there are many aid organizations out there who actually make a difference like the world food programme,the red cross or doctors without borders, if you give your money to non-govermental organizations then you are doing some good but if you give it to a goverment then there is no way of assuring your money will go where desired
and keep in mind that most african nations are christian nations,13% of catholics are africans and many african nations like uganda are accepting protestants and if you are orthodox like warsong there is always ethiopia.

i don't know anything about bill cosby so i'll not comment on that .

at the end racism is just silly, a racist man is just like a man,who looks at two identical cofee cups and says he can tell whether the cofee is hot or cold.

the cure for racism is knowing there is no difference,if you greet a white man by saying hello,and a black man by saying "what's up bro!!" then that is prejudice that means you judge peoples characters based on their skin,the person under the skin is what matters not the skin.

mlk jr. helped cure this blindness that had caught america,whatever he did the man is dead and i see no point in attacking or supporting the things he did in his personal life,in his public life he did one of the greatest accomplishments in u.s. history and he very well deserves a day of his own.

BTW, is it right to call days like mlkjr. day a Holy day,they definetly are not holy .

------------------
Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

[This message has been edited by spade89 (edited January 18, 2007).]

You keep on amazing me how much you have to know.
Things are not black and white in Africa. The worst enemies to blacks are blacks. You see this before, during, and after the protestant countries going into South Africa.

There is a big discrimination now against whites in Africa. Africa has a lot of black racists which the news points out that there a lot of race crimes against whites that many get killed raped and slaughtered which the US news would not dare to report.

Again look at international news and see how when non blacks give businesses to South Africans the blacks destroy the businesses. They give a working farm and they take it and don’t use it but rip the farm apart for fire wood than to make profit on the farm which is insane. I know some Africans that are leaving since its chose down their after the blacks took over. It is not an easy place to maintain and the people that are not black that have experience to deal with give it willingly, and some are forced to give it to the south Africans which they do not know and its too much for them.

South Africa is a hell hole which is why it is categorized as a third world. The aids are rampant and adopting kids their like the non Christian Madana does it idiotic. even the black cops have it worse than cops here since they need psychological help after dealing with the horrible crime scenes that the blacks commit on whites since its an epidemic of racism from the blacks despite all the whites do is try to help them.
Check out some recent news for example.

http://www.theherald.co.za/herald/news/n01_25012007.htm
"It is mostly race related crime, Black attackers, White victims. It doesn’t matter who the White victim voted for in the last election, and it might surprise your readers to learn that a good number of English and Afrikaaner alike voted ANC. It doesn’t matter whether the victim speaks English, Afrikaans or French as a first language, whether his family is a recent addition to the neighborhood or a third or fourth generation South African - a White family is a White family and therefore a target. There is much Black on Black crime of course and much of that is tribal. "

South African GENOCIDE
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53830
"They are conservative, Christian Caucasians, a fact that might help explain why the fashionable left in the West doesn’t much care that they’re being exterminated."
"She died after being “severely tortured, burned with an electric iron, beaten, and strangled to death.”
"Typically, the heathens will attack on Sundays. On returning from church, the farmer is ambushed. Those too feeble to attend Sunday service are frequently tortured and killed when the rest are worshiping. In one crime scene, Bibles belonging to the slain had been splayed across their mangled bodies. In another, an “old man’s hand rests on the arm of his wife of many years.” She raped; he, in all likelihood, made to watch. Finally, with their throats slit, they died side by side."
"The rates at which the farmers are being eliminated, the torture and dehumanization involved—all point to systematic extermination"
Sounds like a nice place for Christians. Read more how cruel how South Africa acts after the south Africans took over.
"The Daily Mail reported, in February 2006, that the government is dead-set-on forcibly seizing the land of thousands of farmers. By the year 2014, a third of the Boers’ property will have been given to blacks."
Go move their then we will talk. Check out the video in the link as well.

Ugly truth about South Africa
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53375
“South Africa is now the most violent country outside a war zone. The country, writes Scott Baldauf of the Christian Science Monitor, has "the highest recorded per capita murder rate in the world”
“Few people know that during the decades of the repressive apartheid regime, only a few thousand Africans perished as a direct result of police brutality. A horrible injustice, indubitably, but nothing approximating the carnage under "free" South Africa, where thousands of Africans perish every few months. (Let us not beat about the bush; crime in South Africa is black on black and black on white.).”
:-p :-p :-p :-p

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2060047,00.html
"Earlier, the Volksblad reported that no white men may be appointed as acting judges in the province this term."
"The Democratic Alliance said the minister was pushing a political agenda, while the Freedom Front Plus said the decision was racist."
If that happen in the US then there would be an outcry. It's not going forward but backwards.

If you want video of how bad things are then here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFN8WDEe6BE
The best thing for south Africa is to be Christian and not give them 100 billion of money to go down the drain to corrupt black governments, and remove black warlords, and remove Semitic owned diamond mines, and let people even if they are non blacks farm and not forced to give up their lands. South Africa is mostly hostile against Christians and supported by secularists who help it become more and more messed up. Even the respectable people like doctors are on the news for having aids since they sleep with patients, and others that steal things form the hospital which could destroy the hospital to close it and hurt the people. South Africans are self destructive weather we want to see it or not. Go read my post called “thank god for slavers” which I quote an article from a black man that thanks whites. In some ways I don’t agree since with the article but you might.

There is a reason why some news stories are presented and others are not, it's to mold how people think. No wonder why the majority of the world thinks that Americans are practically dumb in international affairs especially when over 70% of Americans don’t even have a passport to go to places and see what really happens for them selves. And the ones that do mostly go to top notch places and don’t see how the majority of the place is like. Even the news admits that they are one side trying to sway people. Only in the US will you hear big BS and people ignorantly echo it the most.

http://shop.wnd.com/store/item.asp?DEPARTMENT_ID=6&SUBDEPARTMENT_ID=23&ITEM_ID=374
“How the media's obsession with polling twists the news, alters elections, and undermines democracy
The Media are lying to you and they're using "public opinion" to keep you misinformed. Welcome to the world of "Mobocracy"--a place where opinion polls, wielded by a cynical, ideologically driven press, distort the news and change opinion. It's a place where the fleeting whims of a largely ignorant populace are used to supplant thoughtful, reasonable debate, and where, all too often, pollsters and the art they practice are shrouded behind a cloudy curtain of clever wording, data manipulation, and hidden agendas.”
As I stated with the society like this no way MLKjr is the great Christian man he is portrayed. No it’s not a holy day, you can say its unholy since it undermines what is really good. If that is turning into holy then no wonder the holy day of Christmas and Easter are turned into a holy day.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

------------------
They will know that we are Christians by our love.

But on the negative side of it blacks of those crimes because they are black, meaning they resent non blacks since they place their color over others that gave them so much. I find religious black leaders like Al Sharpton or Jessi Jackson fake since they instigate a lot of race tension just because they are black. You have Sharpton saying that whites are racist for not doing business in black neighborhoods despite the highest crime rates are in those places, and then he complains that whites should get out of black neighborhoods since its black territory. Or you have Mayor Ray Nagen form New Orleans sating that it's chocolate town and all the blacks vote for him and its it allowed to have any white officers since they try to make it an all black place, despite the crime is the highest before and after the flood.

I don't find those actions Christian, but it sad that society gives people like them as great leaders or religious leaders. MLKjr is an ok person just like everyone else but being praised as a Christian leader is far from it.
The only good culture people should follow is Christian culture.

Did that clear things up? Do you agree?

Spade=
I forgot to mention that Ethiopia is orthodox and generally the orthodox Christian churches have almost all Christian artifacts, but the catholic church has some as well after stealing and ransacking Orthodox churches to get them. Kind of pathetic that what they have as holy are stolen which contradicts thou shall not steal and thou shall not kill which is how they got them.

Also History books state that Ethiopia was mostly a Semitic country before Black South Africans took it over recently, which the bible was talking about the Semites people and not about the black people in that country. But they both are Orthodox it seems. And the modern day Ethiopians follow more the Christian traditions and not south African traditions which is the proper way.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

you have absolutley no idea what you are talking about do you ??? lol

1)about ethiopia it has nothing to do with south africans,to give you a bit of a history lesson , ethiopia has had it's roots of judaism from the time of King David,and Christianity after Christ which means ethiopian orthodoxy is much older than most forms of Christianity(catholic,european orthodox),ethiopia had been free and never been a colony of any country, as the matter of fact ethiopian troops fought in the korean war and (if i am not mistaken) in vietnam, the only time ethiopia was occupied by a foreign force was in world war 2 when the u.s. banned all supplies both to italy and ethiopia and italy had the help of hitler and american commercial companies were selling commodities to mussolini therefore italy occupied ethiopia for 5 years until the british liberated it, after that a revolution took place and ethiopia became a communist country (most powerful african country during cold war)because jimmy carter refused to help ethiopia when the communist took over.100,000 people died in the whole communist era,then a coalition of rebeles overthrew the communist government and amazingly the cia helped the communist dictator escape and he was at liberia and is probably at zimbwabwe now (he is probably the one who came up with the idea to expell all whites in zimbwabwe,and the chemical weapons thing in liberia). at no moment in it's history has a south african took over ethiopia ,ethiopia founded the oau(organization of african union) which is now the african union(malcom x modeled the organization of african american union after that), and the jamaicans believe that the dead ex-emperor of ethiopia is their messaiah and that bob marley was a prophet , they are called rasta because the name of the emperor was ras teferi(which i think is silly),ethiopia has helped end racist goverments throughout africa,including south africa.ethiopian troops recently took control over the country of somalia, eradicated the islamist terrorist goverment and with the help of u.s. forces caught/killed some of the master minds behind the u.s. embassy bombings in kenya and tanzania.

really you don't know what you are talking about on this issue warsong,
ethiopia is 60% orthodox,35% muslim,the rest is pagan...and 1% protestant
and 0.1% catholic,90% of the population can't read so you can't really blame them for being orthodox because the didn't even read the Bible.

and as for the rest of your comment ,you are plain out right racist and the thing is you don't think you are, if you ask me the whit people in south africa should leave all the land there and go back to europe, white people eradicated the native americans now the want to eradicate black people ?? white people stole the land so it doesn't matter what they say the land is not theirs and africa is not for white people . i think what is happening to the whites there is unfair but it's not the land of their ancestors ,it's not right what the black people are doing to them but the black people have every right to do as they wish on their own land if the white people don't like it then they should just leave,even if they are born and raised there , somebody has to pay for the atrocities of their ancestors. and there is no way that south african blacks could come to ethiopia because there are like over 15 nations(just guessing here) between ethiopia and south africa and about 3-4000 miles of land.
and some ethiopians(approximately 3-4 million) are jew.

and why do you keep judging an entire religion or race of people by the actions of few??? unless they are voted representatives of a certain community then what they do doesn't reflect on anybody except them.

and you seem to think that people who are black have a certain culture and it's bad,well if you are comparing it to white culture ...no. black people didn't colonize nobody,black people didn't enslave anyone black people didn't commit the holocaust black ...etc. but if you are asking which culture is good then it is the culture made by the one and only Good that exists.... God . Christianity is the only culture that is good.

but as for being savage looking at history white people have been more savage than anyone on the planet.

and what is the deal with this ridiculous quote:
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery."

oh so the savage shouldn't be Christians, does that make you righteous or civilized or SUPERIOR. it seems that you are taking the role of God and saying who deserves the gospel and who doesn't. the gospel is clearly for all who seek it not for all warsong likes.

i really can't find anything more racist than what you said (except what is said by the nazi the kkk, the white aryans...etc..).

you have a severe lack of knowlege about black peoples culture ,you seem to think that all black people have the same(similar) culture because they are black. you were probaly raised in an all white neighborhood with all white people around you ( which is fine as long as they are not racist), and you say you are not racist because everyone else says they are not, you really don't understand the diversity between different cutlures, as for example the country we were talking about earlier(ethiopia) has over 85 different languages spoken and africa has 55 different nations some muslim ,mostly catholic some muslim (up to the north part and some in east and west coast), now can you imagine the diversity taking place in africa, the very fact that you say black culture is bad just shows that you know nothing about black culutre because there is no such thing as one black culture,we say black culture to refer to the many cultures followed by people who happen to be black.
even in america the cultures of black people in the south and in the north and even sometimes from state to state can vary(although not greatly).

so you know nothing about what you are saying you are basing your argument on south africa. which is the richest african nation, and you seem to overlook that there are 54 other african nations. you judge people based on their skin. that makes you a racist and i think you are ok with it because you don't want to learn about their cultures.

in short you think you know everything and according to you white culture is superior.

------------------
Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

(I think that only black people can even come close to getting away with saying such a thing; there certainly was controversy over that part of the film, but the movie probably wouldn't even have been released to general audiences if it had been white people saying that.)

------------------
it's pronounced "tonics"

Here is one example of how extreme things are. For example affirmative action for instance how a famous case in how a student couldn’t make it in with a grade of 96/100 to med school on the test since they school can only take 5 people of each race. He found out that that a black student that got a grade of 23/100 on the test made it sine he was black and he said that was racist. Is this what MLKjr said that he wanted black and whites to be equal? I would guess Spade thinks it is so, but he is a little kid and doesn’t know better so I amuse him by answering him sometimes. Lol

The Orthodox Church and its people were enslaved more and treated worse than blacks in American but the Orthodox Church and people have risen despite that they don’t get any special treatment, didn’t get outside help, are still being attacked, but are doing better than their African American counter parts. They don’t ask for reparations from protestant/Catholics, or from Muslims, Jews, or other whites. They just want fairness but MLKjr message went out the window. Now you kind of know why the Orthodox Church marched with MLKjr since they understand what slavery is and what it is to be kept down and still being kept down. MLKjr didn’t just help blacks it helped the Orthodox people to be discriminated by Protestants. Too bad Protestants don’t want to fess up to that and just make it an issue of black and white and not about equality for all, and they still discriminate against Orthodox Christian in and out of the US.

Spade====== =
LOLOLOL
What I said if from an Ethiopian history site. But if you strongly believe what you say then there is probably a division in views or misunderstanding from an Ethiopian perspective.

I am more interested in Brandon’s reply than yours but I’ll amuse you a little. Ever hear of what the word WASP means?

So what if they can’t read the bible. Most people didn’t have the bible in the early church so all they all atheists? But seriously the official religion is Orthodoxy and Muslims are flooding in. I do not know that region as well so I don’t really care for it.

Don’t be an ignorant racist Spade. If you want all whites to leave Africa then blacks all over the world should go back to Africa you are saying. Is that what you are saying? You are racist to think that it’s ok that blacks can kill whites in Africa. So you are saying that whites should not help blacks in the US? Do you say people should not help people in need? Should Christians help other Christians or help show the Christianity to everyone? For you to justify killing no matter who makes you evil. You can be annoying at times.

You are a strange one. Black, white, blue, gold, whatever culture is not good. So what is your point? Taking a side over Christianity you will loose. Yes white are savage in their own way, and blacks are savage in their own way. Whites kill in brutal ways, and blacks kill in brutal ways, the difference is that whites have the technical advantage since they have certain resources first, and if blacks had that power they would do the same. As the saying goes absolute power corrupts. Both are just as bad so what is your point again?

Here is something to show that you are ignorant some more. Are you saying that depending on color the person is what they are or culture? Everyone had slaves except for aborigines, but they are not considered black. Also as stated in the other post the Greeks has slaves but not considered as slaves as we know them to be as explained and they are whites. You can’t deny that Africa is worse off now than before as black themselves have stated. Unchristian are more savage, people that mix Christianity with their own culture act more savage. It’s not about black and white but how people use their brains.

LOL and I see you persist to call names. Would you like me to call you a complete idiot? The saying meaning not to put man made traditions into religion since it degrades Christianity. Obviously you probably need to grow up a little more to understand some finer things so I will look past your blind rage as amusing.

You live in Texas. Do you see where I live or are you blind as well? I live in NY. I lived with everyone and have friends with everyone; the only thing I don’t have animal friends like cows like you do. I lived in Jewish and Mexican/black communities. I have a Hindu next door, black across the street, a silly white Mason Buddhist next door now, and a protestant church next to me that acts like the king pin the neighborhood. As diverse as that sounds I use to live at a place more diverse.

Oddly the more you talk the funnier you are. LOL

Ethnic groups (est.): Oromo 35%, Amhara 30%, Tigre 6%-8%, Somali 6%.
Religions: Muslim 40%, Ethiopian Orthodox Christian 45%-50%, Protestant 5%, indigenous beliefs, remainder.
Education: Years compulsory--none. Attendance (elementary) 46%. Literacy--25%.
http://www.state.gov/www/background_notes/ethiopia_0398_bgn.html
http://www.everyculture.com/Cr-Ga/Ethiopia.html
Everyone has their own interpretation or stats and despite that the government disagrees with you on some points you still act like a child. Grow up kid. If you want to reply, reply with questions since you lost complete control of the conversation. If all else fails read my reply to tonny.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

quote:

---

Ethiopia has many indigenous languages (some 84 according to

---

incase you don't already know the ethiopian orhodox Church has over 44 arks of the covenant one for each saint they believe in, they basically worship the angels, give sacrifices of sheep,or whatever they can for the angels & saints, some of these saints are just made up fairy tales, they even believe that the great temple of lalibela made all from one rock(hewn rock) was all made by angels(angels didn't even build solomons temple).
here is a link to it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Orthodox_Tewahedo_Church

they even worship mary more than Jesus, some of them believe that it is okay to betray Christ as long as you believe in mary(the holy mother).

the legends and myth go on and on and on,the Bible makes it clear that we shouldn't worship angels, as the matter of fact God makes it clear in the book of Exodus that we should not worship anything other than him.

these people went a little to far with that.

quote:

---

I do not know that region as well so I don’t really care for it.

---

quote:

---

Don’t be an ignorant racist Spade. If you want all whites to leave Africa then blacks all over the world should go back to Africa you are saying. Is that what you are saying? You are racist to think that it’s ok that blacks can kill whites in Africa. So you are saying that whites should not help blacks in the US? Do you say people should not help people in need? Should Christians help other Christians or help show the Christianity to everyone? For you to justify killing no matter who makes you evil. You can be annoying at times.

---

quote:

---

i think what is happening to the whites there is unfair but ....

---

let me make what i said clear, what the blacks are doing to the whites is unfair and it wouldn't have happened if the ancestors of the whites didn't steal the lands of the blacks, the whites are paying for what their ancestors did,in other words white people a long time ago are causing the suffering of white people today(indirectly).
black people have every right to do what they like in their own lands ,in the lands of their ancestors.

think of the Jewish vs. palestine situation, for whom does that land belong to the Jews or the palestines?? the answer is the Jews because it was their land and it was the land of their ancestors.
except in africa as oppose to what is happening in Israel the whites didn't take the land when the blacks left it , the whites forcible stole it, and if you are not a racist and base your judgment on pure fairness, then that land belongs to the blacks not the whites . the only reason the whites should be there is because of the generocity of the blacks. that land is not and never will be theirs, their ancsestors stole it. not only did they steal the land the actually treated the blacks inferior and we all know the apartheid situation. the only reason that you are siding with the whites is because you are white ,nothing else if you talk fairness then the land purely belongs to black people.

let me make it clear to you in a hypothetical situation:
man-a has a house,man-b steals the house and evicts man-a, both man-a and man-b die and their sons are now all grown up, man-a now has the money to sue man-b(as oppose to his father), now when he sues man-b's son what should he get?? isn't it fair that he should get his fathers possesion back???

you are siding with the whites because you are a racist warsong.

as for all blacks around the world being deported, if their ancestors stole white land then sure, what's fair is fair, but if the white people back in the ages willfuly gave their land to black people then there is no reason for deporting all the blacks, if you are talking about u.s. the the ancestors of most blacks were forced to come to america(as slaves), it absolutley doesn't make sense to deport them because neither they nor their ancestors have done anything wrong, as the matter of fact not only were they forced to come into america they were actualy held slaves for over 360 years and were discriminated aginst for another 100 years, what's fair in this case would be giving them equality, and compensating them for the atrocities made by the ancestors of white people today by things like affirmative action,etc....(which don't even come close to compensating over 4 centuries of racism and opression, as the matter of fact the u.s. gov't should pay black people for the atrocities mad against them after all it paid back all japanese[$20,000] for atrocities against them in world war 2).

i wasn't being racist i was being fair, i was looking past the skin and seeing what was happening without any form of prejudice , i said what i said because that would be the action that would have took place if the situation was between whites and whites ,instead of blacks and whites.

and stop calling everyone ignorant ,not everyone is like you.

quote:

---

You are a strange one. Black, white, blue, gold, whatever culture is not good. So what is your point? Taking a side over Christianity you will loose. Yes white are savage in their own way, and blacks are savage in their own way. Whites kill in brutal ways, and blacks kill in brutal ways, the difference is that whites have the technical advantage since they have certain resources first, and if blacks had that power they would do the same. As the saying goes absolute power corrupts. Both are just as bad so what is your point again?

---

i follow one culture and that culture is Christianity , all cultures that don't accept Jesus Christ are not good .
as for being savage, no culture is savage , the people that follow the culture are the ones that become savage(usually because of the circumstances), all cultures that are not based on Christ will lead to savagery. and even if blacks had the advantage of technology like the whites ,unless the magically come up with the concept of imperialism(like europeans) why would they think that teritorial expansion would benefit them???

quote:

---

Here is something to show that you are ignorant some more. Are you saying that depending on color the person is what they are or culture? Everyone had slaves except for aborigines, but they are not considered black. Also as stated in the other post the Greeks has slaves but not considered as slaves as we know them to be as explained and they are whites. You can’t deny that Africa is worse off now than before as black themselves have stated. Unchristian are more savage, people that mix Christianity with their own culture act more savage. It’s not about black and white but how people use their brains

---

actually i said the exact opposite: let me quote myself here,

quote:

---

....because there is no such thing as one black culture,we say black culture to refer to the many cultures followed by people who happen to be black.....

---

but i do agree with your last comment "It’s not about black and white but how people use their brains
".

quote:

---

LOL and I see you persist to call names. Would you like me to call you a complete idiot? The saying meaning not to put man made traditions into religion since it degrades Christianity.

---

warsong be careful not to call someone an idiot or a fool, Jesus clearly stated that if you call someone an offensive word you will be put infront of the council(judges), but if you call someone a fool(which also applies to idiot,moron..etc) you will surely not get into heaven.
i am not saying that you won't get into heaven(i am not judging you here),
i am just trying to tell you that you are doing what might possibly keep you from getting into Heaven.

if the saying said man made traditions shouldn't get mixed with Christianity ,then i would agree, but it says" the conversion of the savage to Christianity,is conversion of Christianity to savage."

looking at that any human would automaticaly think that you meant savage people shouldn't be Christians, and if they became Christians then that would make Christianity savage.

you know that this has nothing to do with my age,just because i posted my age in that other thread and you saw it,that doesn't give you any right to behave like a child,and insult someone based on their age.

quote:

---

Obviously you probably need to grow up a little more to understand some finer things so I will look past your blind rage as amusing.

---

warsong really, stop acting superior to other people, start behaving your age, if memory serves me right you are the one who started the name calling(even though you claim to be older than me),and whenever i say something offensive towards you, i meant it,it wasn't a blind rage, when you say childish outrageous things then you shouldn't excpect anything less than a totally offensive reply.
the image i had of you was that of a person older than me that was why i was outraged,i excpected you to behave a little more respectful and a bit more civil, that was why i made all the remarks towards you, if indeed you are a very young immature person(like 7-8 years old), please tell me so that i can apologize to you other wise , i stand by what i said and i meant every word of it.

quote:

---

You live in Texas. Do you see where I live or are you blind as well? I live in NY. I lived with everyone and have friends with everyone; the only thing I don’t have animal friends like cows like you do. I lived in Jewish and Mexican/black communities. I have a Hindu next door, black across the street, a silly white Mason Buddhist next door now, and a protestant church next to me that acts like the king pin the neighborhood. As diverse as that sounds I use to live at a place more diverse.

---

well so what ,just because you are a yankee and because you live in a racialy diverse neighborhood that doesn't mean you understand them ,as the matter of fact you have huge disrespect towards all of the racialy diverse people around you ,you call protestants king pin, and budhists silly, what does that make you??? don't say righteous ,or good or civilized because so far you have disproved(judged) your own self that you are none of these things.
even though you live/lived in very diverse places you have made no attempt to understand them, you probably think that you know all you need to know about everything, and because of what you think you know you think that your culture/race/religion....etc are superior to everyone elses.

quote:

---

Oddly the more you talk the funnier you are. LOL

---

well i am glad to see you are taking these discusions seriously(not),
if you wanted entertainment then why don't you say so, i can be much more entertaining, my impression of you was you were the kind of person who means what he says, and takes the opinion of other people into consideration before he judges them, but apparetnly anyone that does not agree with what you say is silly (now that is funny).

and by the way the population/demographics statistics of the u.s. gov't can be severly inaccurate ,because the u.s. gov't does not carry out population censuses around the world try checking out wikipedia or encarta, and mostly the u.n.

and by the way you said south africans took over ethiopia and ethiopia was a semetic country. well just look at the links that you yourself gave me where does it say that south africans took over ethiopia, if they actually did prove it.
and as for being semetic, the Bible refers to ethiopians as cushtics, and presently even though there are lots of semetics in ethiopia the country is mostly cushtic and omotic(even according to what your links say).

p.s.:
can you please behave a bit more maturley, you were the one suppose to tell me that not the other way around.

@tonix

quote:

---

"Martin Luther King was a ho." (Eddie, played by Cedric the Entertainer, Barbershop)
(I think that only black people can even come close to getting away with saying such a thing; there certainly was controversy over that part of the film, but the movie probably wouldn't even have been released to general audiences if it had been white people saying that.)

---

see the thing is the two racial slurs (the n word and cracker), don't have the same amount of offensive power, if white people were really offended by the word cracker then they wouldn't just sit by and let black people call them that(unless they are cowards), for white people being called a cracker is just like any other name calling except it is based on race, but for black people, because of the racist past of this country when a white man says that word he is automaticaly holding himself superior and calling the other race inferior and even un-human, when black people say cracker they are just offending the white man they are not holding themselves superior.

even thought i severley dislike both of those words , and there is something we shouldn't forget, these social standards are made by the world(which is ruled by satan) and as Christians we follow the word of The Lord ,and no Christian could say any of those two words and could still be called a Christian, race is a social concept created by satan(the world), the Bible has mad it clear that racial superiority does not exist, if you follow the Bible then you would say all men are created equal, but if you don't and you are an atheist because black people look more monkey like than white people you would think they are less evolved therefore inferior, but as a Christian that does not apply to us.

whatever is said by a non-Christian( racial slur,curse word..etc) is because of the influence of evil. we shouldn't let satan affect us, whether eddy murphy says a cracker or george bush says the n word they are both of the world and not of Christ.
if the world wasn't satans then we wouldn't have to worrry about what is acceptable in society because we all know the rules(Bible).

------------------
Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

[This message has been edited by spade89 (edited February 01, 2007).]

Spade
Ok a few general points.
You know ½ of the things you say is what I am saying and the only difference is that you are trying to yell/sell to me what I am saying which is insane. But that’s what you have been doing in some posts. You are trying to sell me things that I didn’t comment on which I agree with you as well and you act as if I went against particular points. I say all cultures black and white are bad and only Christianity is the way, but you keep arguing with me despite you agree and then you contradict what you say to ask for money for blacks lol.

Wikipedia is not a reliable source for official reference regarding politics, religion, history, or international affairs. Some schools ban people from using that for research since the information is not official. Other Organizations admit it’s not a reliable source for certain things and even the owners which are secularists or at least atheists admit to taking sides certain issues. I am just saying you can get the information to help but not 100% always.

Name calling is not going to strengthen your points but reflect what you actually are since bad goes with bad. So try to only reply when calm and not act like a little kid. And try not to make stupid puns.

As for the arch a clue in what Wikipedia says
“The only pre-colonial Christian church of Sub-Saharan Africa, it has a membership of about 40 million people”
“The Ethiopian church claims that one of its churches, Our Lady Mary of Zion, is host to the original Ark of the Covenant that Moses carried with the Israelites during the Exodus” Well the others as you say are not the original artifact so why did you bother brining it up?
Ethiopian Church in some ways has been a distinct. I don’t think they worship marry more, if they did they would be in trouble. Too much to mention about it.
If you want to read more about Orthodoxy in Africa maybe this site might help.
http://www.copticafrica.org/index.htm
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Orthodoxy_in_Africa

I was not talking about Bosnia I was talking about Kosovo. And I explain the political reasons why things are presented in one way to look bad which the News people admit that they show one side to make things look justifiable for their side to be right which I have started before many times. One example in the political forum about the BBC news if you want to read that post.

Blacks have no rights to do what they want. They have the right only to follow Christ. If you justify their negative actions then you are saying that the whites should have wiped them out and not show kindness to them because they blacks do not have the holy spirit in them to do those things sine they can not forgive. What do Christians have to be killed in Africa for? Their own people were their worst enemies so they have no one to blame but themselves.

As for Palestine it’s Palestinian since they have been their, but if you want to go by history then the Greeks established it longer some speculate first from archeological and historian finding. Aparthide as bad as it was in Africa is was better than how it is now how black and black crime is up, aids is high, black leaders are husrting the blacks intentionally. As bad as whites were blacks made it worse their which I know Africans that come here to the US saying how bad it is now that the blacsk tooko over. Even the blacsk their say for non Africans not to give money to afican since it makes it worse because the warlords take the money and use that to oppress people more. If anything whites not are hurting them more than before by trying to help them.

I I explained to Tonny. I am no responsibility towards blacks being slaves and they deserve nothing like everyone else. You don’t see orthodox people that have been enslaving longer than blacks and get less help complain for reparation. We agree that other religious people like Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims are to blame but we don’t go out killing them since that is not the Christian way. And they get nothing from no one but form God which is why they have fought their own battles to be free and come out to do well. Blacks complaining are what probably hurt them the most. So you want to be Orthodox now since you know they didn’t oppress the blacks?

You calling me names again? You take sides since you are a racist. You even pointed it out when you said I take white side. So if I take black side I am not? I take no side, its taking sides like you do that makes you a racist despite calling me that. You honestly are a little kid that needs to grow up. I knew society brainwashes people but I didn’t think they brain wash Christians this much, maybe it’s a protestant thing.

So give me money, I want reparations since orthodox have been oppressed more, but as you stated many times you don’t know much about it. If you don’t then your are hypocrite if you still stick to your statement and deny me. Where is my money spade?

You say” i am just trying to tell you that you are doing what might possibly keep you from getting into Heaven.” Aren’t you hypocritical? Lol Yeah I am older than you but you are too annoying and ignorant to be dealt with properly so you get my blunt reply. I know you want things to look simple as kindergarten but you have to put aside your kiddy thinking and grow up.

Remember as Mr.T says don’t be a fool stay in school! He is kinder than me since he pities the fools, I don’t pity you. Any other stupid remarks for me to correct? But remember next time you better have my money, or are you going back on your word? Maybe that’s a protestant thing. From now on no reply to you and I will only asks for you to give me MY MONEY!

No more Mr. nice guy despite this was fun, but again, Money spade Money!

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

I was basically on the search to see if Dr. MLK Jr. was a Christian or not. I found out that he seemed to be, but if he held to the beliefs he had while in college (which it looks like he did) then he wasn't a Christian.. He didn't believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, nor in His deity as God, nor in His bodily Resurrection

My main point was this: No matter how great a cause is... if Jesus Christ is not the center of that cause... then it will not stand ... not as it ought.. because what you'll end up with is a perverted freedom.. and a perverted peace. I think that's what we have now in America... but Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace.. but He came to divide people over the Truth! We are not to simply make peace in this world, but we are to overcome the world. I heard a preacher say that today... Also in war there is no substitute for victory, there is no compromise. Again.. no matter how good, noble, and great a cause is.. there isn't true peace, freedom... or liberty without Jesus Christ.

------------------
They will know that we are Christians by our love.

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited February 02, 2007).]

quote:

---

You say” i am just trying to tell you that you are doing what might possibly keep you from getting into Heaven.” Aren’t you hypocritical? Lol Yeah I am older than you but you are too annoying and ignorant to be dealt with properly so you get my blunt reply. I know you want things to look simple as kindergarten but you have to put aside your kiddy thinking and grow up.

---

i don't care who on earth you are,you don't have any right to insult me just for the sake of insulting me,if i said something offensive towards you you have every right to reply but calling me an idiot just because you don't undrstand/disagree with what i say is crossing the line.

quote:

---

Remember as Mr.T says don’t be a fool stay in school! He is kinder than me since he pities the fools, I don’t pity you. Any other stupid remarks for me to correct? But remember next time you better have my money, or are you going back on your word? Maybe that’s a protestant thing. From now on no reply to you and I will only asks for you to give me MY MONEY!

---

oh and yeah ,you pitty me?? i should pitty you because you are filled with pride,arrogance, and hatred . as the matter of fact i do pitty you man,i will pray for you so that the Lord will deliver you out of the darkness you are in.

warsong even though you make me really angry at times i don't hate you,why do you hate me because i disagree with you or because i reply the insults you say towards me???

i know you have absolutley no respect for me because i am a protestant and because i am younger than you, but really warsong why do you feel that you have to prove your superiority towards me(which you are not)??you know and i have acknowledged that you have more experience than me in life , but we are talking about facts here anyone can research on a topic and comment and discuss about it ,age has nothing to do with it.and i never said or considered an orhodox person to be inferior or less intelligent than me but you consider me weak and inferior to you why??

f.y.i : pride is the lowest(worst) level of inferiority complex disorder.

and ofcourse the highlight of my day is one of warsongs posts,yay(not).
i really don't care whether you reply or not ,i don't reply to you because i like your replies i reply to you because what you say concerns me , if you didn't want me to reply then go and post in a private discussion site instead of a public one.

this wasn't fun and you weren't nice.

quote:

---

You calling me names again? You take sides since you are a racist. You even pointed it out when you said I take white side. So if I take black side I am not? I take no side, its taking sides like you do that makes you a racist despite calling me that. You honestly are a little kid that needs to grow up. I knew society brainwashes people but I didn’t think they brain wash Christians this much, maybe it’s a protestant thing.

---

quote:

---

I I explained to Tonny. I am no responsibility towards blacks being slaves and they deserve nothing like everyone else. You don’t see orthodox people that have been enslaving longer than blacks and get less help complain for reparation. We agree that other religious people like Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and Muslims are to blame but we don’t go out killing them since that is not the Christian way. And they get nothing from no one but form God which is why they have fought their own battles to be free and come out to do well. Blacks complaining are what probably hurt them the most. So you want to be Orthodox now since you know they didn’t oppress the blacks?

---

as i said i am not taking sides i am standing for justice here and if and if someone stole something from an orhodox and he should at least give it back too. because you are an orthodox that doesn't make you any less or above any law.

and really read my lips, i know what i need to know about orthodoxy the very fact that you have no respect to anyone except to yourself is appaling to me, and really "I DO NOT WANT TO BE AN ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN, MY RELIGION IS PROTESTAT AND IT WILL REMAIN THAT WAY SO LONG AS I LIVE".

quote:

---

As for Palestine it’s Palestinian since they have been their, but if you want to go by history then the Greeks established it longer some speculate first from archeological and historian finding. Aparthide as bad as it was in Africa is was better than how it is now how black and black crime is up, aids is high, black leaders are husrting the blacks intentionally. As bad as whites were blacks made it worse their which I know Africans that come here to the US saying how bad it is now that the blacsk tooko over. Even the blacsk their say for non Africans not to give money to afican since it makes it worse because the warlords take the money and use that to oppress people more. If anything whites not are hurting them more than before by trying to help them.

---

quote:

---

Blacks have no rights to do what they want. They have the right only to follow Christ. If you justify their negative actions then you are saying that the whites should have wiped them out and not show kindness to them because they blacks do not have the holy spirit in them to do those things sine they can not forgive. What do Christians have to be killed in Africa for? Their own people were their worst enemies so they have no one to blame but themselves.

---

and how racist you must be man, you call all white people Christians and you think that blacks are non-Christian, now that is racist, 13% of catholics are african and a large amount of protestans are black,and as you said millions of ethiopians are orhodox too, so how can you say something like why do Christians have to be killed and refer to all whites as Christians and all blacks as non- Christians.

as for the whole kosovo bosnia thing , i brought that up because you were trying to make me look like i was justifing murder and making yourself look like you were all for peace , while in fact you had a very long argument with me about trying to justify a genocide, i made it clear about 3 or 4 times now that i don't justify blacks killing whites or the other way around.

i brought the thing with the Ark because i watned to show you how fake the orthodox religion in ethiopia is, i don't know about the east european orthodox Churches but as far as i know the one in ethiopia believes that God and the angels made a covenant with man more than one time and they worship and give offering to these Arks, i brought it up because i thought that you knew well enough about the Bible to tell something as ridiculous as this is true or not.

and btw,some ethipiopian even believe that it is ok to betray Christ as long as you are loyal to mary.

quote:

---

name calling is not going to strengthen your points but reflect what you actually are since bad goes with bad. So try to only reply when calm and not act like a little kid. And try not to make stupid puns.

---

wikipedia is not a reliable source for opinion based refernce but it is more than accurate when it comes to fact based reference,since it is regularly updated it is really reliable unlike the u.s. gov't link you gave me,these population statistics change very rapidly and agencies like the u.s. depatment of state update their info only when they need to, but wikipedia gets updated whenever there is new info.

quote:

---

You know ½ of the things you say is what I am saying and the only difference is that you are trying to yell/sell to me what I am saying which is insane. But that’s what you have been doing in some posts. You are trying to sell me things that I didn’t comment on which I agree with you as well and you act as if I went against particular points. I say all cultures black and white are bad and only Christianity is the way, but you keep arguing with me despite you agree and then you contradict what you say to ask for money for blacks lol.

---

warsong for the last time stop contradicting your own self and stop proving that you are the very things you call me.

quote:

---

Tonny
Ignore spade, he lost it. But seriously he makes me laugh with his insanity. I would tell him to stop posting but he cracks me up how little kids that don’t know better think. It’s like those little dogs that their bark is better than their bite.

---

as i said i will pray for you,i don't hate you and i don't intend to.

brandon:

perfect peace == perfect justice == perfect Judge == Jesus Christ .

------------------
Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

Brandon
You said it well. But you have to agree that his actions up to today are not being echoed. You see this in spades reply for reparation which goes against equality since people like him place religion and religious value over a cause which has been distorted because he was not that Christian to take much affect. A Christian Orthodox Archbishop can do so much and others have to take responsibility which many ignore that and don't even mention Christianity when talking about him and block out the Orthodox bishop in todays society to sway people to a fanatical side as well. He should have talked about Christianity more than just accept support from the orthodox church. Giving support is not enough when he doesn't act upon what helps him.

On time magazine and in the march on the right hand side always, where are the protestants... always behind on moral issues. It is interesting how it says "historical point for the negro's cause." Negro in means black in Spanish for some people that do not know. Also it was not just about blacks as I stated but if the blacks got treated fairly then so did others that were not WAPS. Too bad many do not get still to this day.

The USA discriminated against people that were not WASPS which some people don't get or want to understand. I guess it's called brainwashing.

"Archbishop Iakovos made national headlines while marching alongside Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. for civil rights in the 1960s, an act which characterized his commitment to social justice as part of the ministry of the Church. His march with King was immortalized on the cover of the March 26, 1965 issue of Life Magazine, where he stands photographed alongside King as part of the latter's march in Selma, Alabama. In doing so, Iakovos was one of the first national religious leaders to take a role in American civil rights."

Another example of not following holy tradition how things escalate to extremes.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." "7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
I may be outnumbered but not out gunned.

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited February 06, 2007).]

quote:

---

Spade- You better have my MONEY.
Do you have a condition I should know about? The Christian blacks I know will look at you as a simple minded nut case, but that's their opinion.
MY MONEY spade!

---

again warsong ,you are doing it again,either you skipped my previous post or you are playing some sick game, i already addressed these comments you are making.

simple minded nut case,if that's their opinion let them make it ,not you ,don't bare false witness warsong.

and by the way why do you say that?

you want your money why should i give it to you??? what did i take from you that i should give back? and i mean me did my government invade your country and messed it up?? if so take it to my representative in congress, if you work hard enough and care for your cause( just like the people in africa and the japanese here in the u.s. ) you will get your money.

brandon & anyone else viewing this post:

i have made perfectly clear and illustrated my point of views, i have even backed up my arguments with real life examples and facts, just look at what i said and judge me based on that not by the opinion and insults of this person(warsong) who apparently hates me .

------------------
Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

Watch some News on tv that just cartoons and you will see blacks that are against and find it racists to give money to for reparation. Read my other post calls "thank god for slavery" which a black man wrote in how non blacks saved them form the horrors of Africa from Africans. I kind of disagree and people should be left to do their own thing and see their errors of their ways to want to do what is the Christian and abandon their culture traditions and than be forced to abandon them and take Christian things which some alter.

I didn't even bother reading what you wrote before since what you say is crazy with no read good proof. You you persist to be the way you are and wont read the rest of what you say and the only thing I will say to you is...

MY MONEY SPADE! since you brought up the silly thing and "ask" for then I shall ask from you so don't complain. It's giving people a free ride is what weakens them. As I told Tonny others got nothing for free and they were oppressed more and have done more by getting nothing. You abused your right for me to be nice to you since I have better thing to do.

You might mean well but as my signature says....

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." "7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
:pI may be outnumbered but not out gunned.

quote:

---

Originally posted by warsong:
[B}
I didn't even bother reading what you wrote before since what you say is crazy with no read good proof.

[/B]

---

Haha, did you mean to say "with no good proof reading"?

------------------

warsong:
I respect you as a man and am not trying to stand separate and righteously judge or flaunt anything over you, I just felt lead to say this. The most important thing in life is your relationship with God. After that it's with your family, and with brothers and sisters in Christ. So that through us the world might see Christ and be saved. No point that you are trying to prove is worth behaving the way you are on these forums. The most important thing that we should remember is that we Christians are all God's children. God is watching the way that we treat each other, and He expects us to do so with love and respect.

You are trying to prove a point that is secondary to the reality of who God is and who we are in Him (a family of brothers and sisters) the main thing is that through our lives, (even through the way we are seen on these online forums) people should see the reflection of Jesus Christ in some way..

It would be good if everyone could put less thought to temporary solutions to many of the problems in this world, and put more thought to the big solution to the big problem, which is Lost Souls! If people are saved, then their hearts will change, and the world will be a better place. But if we simply try to fix problems without Jesus then we won't find the right solution! We are God's hands and feet, and we have to let the Head move us as He sees fit, it's the only way that lost souls can be saved... Through Jesus... who has chosen us to be His messengers...

You might mean well warsong, but my signature says....

------------------
They will know that we are Christians by our love.

and again no money for people who don't want it.

and as i said in the previous posts i don't hate you because the second part of my signature says.......

------------------
Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

spade MONEY
Times up, tell it to someone that wants to listen since we can not communicate with each other well since I explain and you misunderstand and say fanatical thing and use derogatory comments. It's easy to bug you since you leave so many opening for me to press your buttons since you are fanatical and I can exploit your weakness in ideology to show that your argument is flawed.

Brandon
That guy abuses what was said and misunderstand and then resorts to name calling and fanatical resorts. I have better things to do than waste my time, but if you want to deal with him he is all yours.

I agree with what you say, but I don't know in what particular aspect you are talking about. I would guess you are talking about protestant. Well they didn't march next to MLK since they never wanted blacks or orthodox people. I am just saying how it is; I hold no grudge I just watch out where the pot holes are to watch out for wrong ideologies. Well that’s my point of view.

Don't worry Brandon, I love you all kiss kiss, I just sternly disagree and am blunt. lol It’s like the saying those who make you happy are not looking out for you, those who make you cry are. I hope you got that in the proper context. I get the feeling some will complain about that soon lol.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 16:18 I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." "7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
:pI may be outnumbered but not out gunned.

I don't care who's in the right, who's in the wrong. I don't care if one's flaming you, the other's bugging you. Give grace, and accept you may disagree forever, and pray for one another. NOT that they would see your point but that you would learn to accept eachother, and agree.

Looking back I feel like Solomon, "Shoulda followed more of my own advice". I know I'm not perfect, but telling me that I'm stupid isn't going to change my opinion of myself.

Stand strong in what God thinks of you, not what another judges of you, I'm not saying don't mention something that they may be having a problem with to let them know and pray over them that it would get fixed, but if they call you stupid realize that in your Weakness Christ makes you strong. And that through Christ you can do all things.

The only thing hurt if you would attack me by calling me stupid would be my feelings, I know that I know that I know what God thinks of me and will stand firm in it. Don't even bother trying to make me think that I'm nothing.

Be the first to accept that you could be wrong, and have not an arrogant and ignorant heart. Do not accept the news as fact either please.

------------------
MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

[This message has been edited by Mene-Mene (edited February 08, 2007).]

Anyway warsong, thanks for the explanation of that sentence.

On topic: I don't like the MLK Jr. holiday. I don't much like him either. May he rest in peace, though.

i really don't care if warsong gets my points or not,i know he is so stubborn that he won't even read what i have to say.

i personally forgive him for all the names he called me(i think that is what Jesus would want me to do),as i said more than one time i don't hate warsong.

i don't want you to get the impression that i am not trying to point fingers at him, i am just trying to defend my faith,and my dignity, when some one calls you a name(dog,foolish,stupid,idiot,child,insane....) you can't just sit back and shut up, that would be admitting that you are those things,i have to defend every insult against me and i can't just let this dude say false things and get away with it, i know that i might have said somethings that turned out to be false but that is because i didn't know they were false and i truly apologize for those things, but as for the rest when somebody makes racist comments and tries to justify them and nobody else is gonna say he is wrong then i have to, i don't care how long it takes if warsong makes one more insult towards me then i will defend myself, if he says something false about my religion then i will defend my faith, if he makes an insult towards an entire race of people then i will stand against that too. i really don't care if warsong reads this or not but i am not going to let him have the last word(unless i agree with his statement).

again i forgive and forget everything warsong has said against me and if warsong humbles himself and stops behaving the way he is , then we can have a healthy conversation.

and i do accept that we may argue forever but i will not be the one who stops defending his faith,or himself.

i am not saying that i am right or wrong but just that i mean what i say and stand by my statements(unless i am convinced that what i said is wrong).

if he keeps on doing what he does then i will too,but as far as forgiving goes i already forgave him(even if he don't forgive me).

warsong:
we can't communicate because you are holding your hands over your ears, and yes it is easy to bug me because most of the times when i make a reply i don't excpect someone to reply back just to bug me, my impression was you were a serious person wanting to have a serious mature argument, if you can truly show that my argument is flawed then i will admit that you are right but instead you are just trying to annoy and bug me, i don't get annoyed that easily warsong.

again warsong you are in no place to call me or my belief fanatical, and i make derogatory comments because you make even worse derogatory comments the intention for my comments is to defend myself not to insult you .
if you agree to stop insulting me then i don't have any reason to insult you .

i really hope that you stop this behavior and act a bit more civilized.

and warsong you really were never nice and you are not behaving any worse than you were before.

if i said something too outrageous then i apologize but most of the things i said towars you are totally justified.
and again:

NO MONEY FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT IT!!!
NO MONEY FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT IT!!!
NO MONEY FOR PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT IT!!!

and by the way the reason there were no protestants marching with mlk jr. was because he and all his people were protestants.
------------------
Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

[This message has been edited by spade89 (edited February 08, 2007).]

Spade: Its not me thats getting offended, I'm just seeing in some of your points calling Warsong ignorant. You should stand up for what you believe in, but you should also try to be the humblest, and the least judgementory you can be while doing it. As Watchman Nee says, "The safest place for a cup is the floor." I took that to mean that the easier you are to back down, the humbler you are, the safer, and the happier your life is.

Although about not backing down, you might want to realize that somepeople you just can't get to agree with you, and its easiest to just realize, "Hey, I don't think either of us will agree with the other, so its best for our relationship to just stop quarelling about our disagreement, and instead encouraging eachother in our agreement."

Warsong: Look at my post for spade. I'm finding it kinda easy for me to be offended, and I'm not the one in the argument. Talking about someone in an insulting/flamatory way in 3rd person I find is much more insulting than in 1st person.

Perhaps he hasn't answered all your points, but judging/insulting/throwing gasoline at him isn't going to do a ton of good.

It appears you're starting to want to just end the argument and just end up disagreeing friends. (Much better than disagreeing enemies) Would you mind stating your questions/points in a numerical, specific order, so I can see what I can agree with and what I can show my point of view.

Quick question, what do you do on this site besides starting theological, and political debate threads? Do you have programming/game making skills? What are some other subjects that you're involved in?

Both of you, please look at my messages for the other one. Put yourself in the other's shoes, and find the most loving, unjudgemental, humble way to state your points in a numerical, specific way.

Would someone please tell me what this Money thing is?

------------------
MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

i apologize for not being humble enough,and i admit that i wasn't the friendliest either, i'd try to be more humble from now on.

i more than tried to be friendly to warsong but he just won't budge, at the time i had nothing but to call him ignorant when he keeps calling me names and doesn't even read my replies towards him.
i also try to be least judgmental (although i am not),if i judge warsong it is based on what he says and after i judge him i always try to ask him to correct me if there was something i misunderstood.

but you do make a pretty good point Jesus did say that we shouldn't judge and i admit that i was wrong on that too,but what would you do if you were in my place? next time i would just try not to be judgmental.

warsong:
i apologize for all the insults i made against you , i hope that you stop your behavior.

oh and about the money thing you should look at our previous posts and see what we were talking about, i said the colonization of africa was wrong and that the colonizers basically stole it from africans and opressed them for a long long time, and when such an opression took place just like the u.s. gov't isolated all japanese people (mostly in the west coast) back in world war 2,and put them in these internship camps just because they were of japanese ancestory, and after decades bill clinton gave each japanese in u.s. $20,000 . and i said that not only should the colonizers give back the lands and things they stole they should pay reparations to the people they opressed, then warsong said orthodox people were opressed too so he should get paid so since then he keeps asking me for money and i tell him i don't even know how you were opressed or when or why ,and if the gov't that opressed orthodox's was my gov't then he can take it to congress and if he tried hard enough and if he was really opressed then he will get reparation fees too.

he keeps asking me money while he should be asking money from the representatives in the gov't that represent me.

------------------
Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

------------------
MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

To every open ear:
Many people use the platform of being a "pastor" for numerous reasons. And a lot of the time those reasons have nothing to do with bringing glory to Jesus Christ and reflecting His light to lost souls. If a speaker or pastor is speaking the truth, then I like Paul rejoice that Jesus is being glorified, and people are being saved, but if that person is speaking falsely about our Lord, then I cannot sit by and just ignore that. People can do really good things but still reject Jesus. When time is up, the most important thing will be our relationship with Jesus Christ. Whether Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. knew Christ or not.. I do not know.. but from his writings when he was in college, it seems that he didn't know Christ at that time... of course it could have changed though... but I don't know...

------------------
They will know that we are Christians by our love.

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited February 25, 2007).]

EDIT:
Having found a version of the letter online, and having made an initial, very brief overview of the letter, I find that Dr. King does indeed make the claim to be Christian (at the end of the letter), and from history it is loudly shouted that he followed his calling even at the cost of his own life. Further than that I have not yet gone, and must now prepare (rather quickly) for work.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

[This message has been edited by TallBill (edited February 26, 2007).]

------------------
They will know that we are Christians by our love.

The boy he was in college is not the man he was at his death—none of us is. If my salvation depended upon the foolishness of my youth I would indeed be eternally lost. Praise God it does not. If such were the case we would have no letters from Paul in the scriptures. Did the thief on the cross have a deep, abiding, and accurate knowledge of theology? But Jesus promised him a place in paradise—because he was trusting Jesus, not because he could write a dissertation on the matter.

In the end, you do not and cannot know the heart of Martin Luther King, Jr. or anyone else, and to take the chance of applying the work of the LORD to the enemy of the LORD is indeed a dangerous chance to take. It is better known as the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

It is one thing to assess the spiritual condition of someone with whom you must interact and then act upon that assessment, but it is quite another to publicly proclaim that someone who has already gone on—and whom you will have no interaction with—has been "proven" (not your words, but others') to not have been a genuine Christian is indeed a dangerous thing and might call into question your own salvation because a genuine Christian will not blaspheme the Holy Spirit by applying His work to others.

Think and meditate on these.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

[This message has been edited by TallBill (edited February 27, 2007).]

quote:

---

The boy he was in college is not the man he was at his death�none of us is. If my salvation depended upon the foolishness of my youth I would indeed be eternally lost. Praise God it does not. If such were the case we would have no letters from Paul in the scriptures.

---

Amen! You are totally right about that.

quote:

---

In the end, you do not and cannot know the heart of Martin Luther King, Jr. or anyone else, and to take the chance of applying the work of the LORD to the enemy of the LORD is indeed a dangerous chance to take. It is better known as the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

---

You are right, no one but God knows the heart of a man. Also I never anywhere applied the work of God to satan. From what I've see.. what Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. did was awesome, good, and courageous. We all know this. But also, the bottom line is not the good deeds you do, but it is what you do with Jesus Christ. On the opposite end of the spectrum, take people that do bad and evil things to people. I believe that God can take and use anyone and any motive for good. That's nothing like blashpemy. I'm not sure if you're calling my salvation into question or not by your last paragraph, but it sounds like you may be hinting at it...?

quote:

---

Did the thief on the cross have a deep, abiding, and accurate knowledge of theology? But Jesus promised him a place in paradise�because he was trusting Jesus, not because he could write a dissertation on the matter.

---

I am now speaking in general terms and not specifically about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Those things I listed (the virgin birth, Christ's deity, Christ's bodily resurrection) are not deep and abiding high levels of theology, they are essential Christian fundamentals. Especially Christ's deity... If a pastor doesn't believe that Jesus is God then they are a false teacher, period. There is absolutely no way around that. How can a pastor schooled in a seminary really be saved if he doesn't belive that Jesus was God and that the bible was His word? He's obviously been confronted with the truth of Jesus Christ but has rejected it. The theif saw the Truth, and he received it! We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. But we must receive that first.

Now let me be clear. If a man calls on the name of the Lord, then he will be saved. The theif on the cross was indeed saved by putting his trust in Jesus. That is the bottom line, what we do with Jesus Christ. But hear me on this... we have access to the bible, if someone denies the very things that Jesus claimed then is that trusting Him? Jesus said to Thomas "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." How about those who reject Jesus' words in scripture... do they believe? Wouldn't the person instead be calling Him a liar, or perhaps misguided? I can see if someone is lacking understanding, and is seeking the truth. But that's different than a pastor teaching others false things about Jesus as if they were true.

In 1st John it's written that if someone goes as far as to say that Jesus didn't come in the flesh then that is the spirit of Antichrist. That is I think if they deny the incarnation of Jesus Christ (The doctrine that the second person of the Trinity assumed human form in the person of Jesus Christ and is completely both God and man.). If there is one thing I will not stand for it is a false teacher! Because they lead so many astray. If any man comes and preaches another Christ or another Gospel... what is it again that Paul says about him?

quote:

---

Galatians 1:8-9
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

---

It's really some serious stuff...

------------------
They will know that we are Christians by our love.

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited February 27, 2007).]

Please hear my intent... I am not out to judge this man or anything, I'm trying to put my own soul at ease concerning this. It was only a few weeks ago when studying about him that I began to think on this. I think at times, "how could someone not be saved and speak this way? Enduring these things and holding to the things that Christ taught about turning the other cheek and such.." But other times I think ... about his older writings which denied Jesus... and about all the crazy affairs with women that I've read about him... But like TallBill said, perhaps people made lies up about him... and perhaps he was a different man when he died than the boy he was while in college... I sure hope so!

EDIT:
Here are some links to his writings that I keep talking about:
(1949)
http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publications/papers/vol1/491123-What_Experiences_of_Christians.htm

(1949)
http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publications/papers/vol1/491123-The_Sources_of_Fundamentalism_and_Liberalism.htm

(1963)
http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

------------------
They will know that we are Christians by our love.

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited February 27, 2007).]