World Views and Politics

Can Homosexuals Be Christians? – BKewl

BKewl

Member

Posts: 144
From: St. Charles, MO, USA
Registered: 07-10-2002
Like the topic says: can homosexuals be Christians? And also, please state why. A friend of mine brought something up recently, and I'd like to get a bunch of other people's views before I present his.

Note that I am not asking "should we as Christians CONDONE homosexuality?" because that would be a definite "no" (as supported by the Bible).

nfektious
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If the question is "Can homosexuals become a Christian?", I would have to say the answer is yes.
We all have a sinful life before we repent of our sins and accept the atonement through Christ's blood for our sins. This is not to say that sin is totally removed from one's life, because sin is not so easily removed by our own mortal efforts. We have the power to avoid sin's beckoning call, through Christ; but, that power has to be initiated by us in order for it to be applied. Example: A fire extinguisher by its mere existence can not put out a fire; it has to be used as intended to be effective against the fire.

If the question is "Can a Christian be a homosexual?", I would have to say no. At least, not be homosexual and remain Christian.
A Christian cannot be in a relationship with God and at the same time be involved in a conscious (or subconscious, for those who like semantics) decision that is clearly against God's commands and principles of godly living. If a person who claims to be a Christian is involved - willingly and defiantly, to any degree - in anti-Christ behavior, we are told by scripture that God cannot be in that person.
A good illustration is Judas Iscariot. Here is a person who was recognized as being a follower of Christ. He was involved in the daily dealings like any of the other disciples were. He was chosen by Christ himself to be one of the core twelve disciples. And yet he betrayed Christ over money. Association does not and can not be an indication of the condition of a person's soul. It is clear - and scripture proves this - that the only outward proof of a person's spiritual state is the spiritual fruit they bear in their life. Inward proof is only visible to God and should be of no concern to others.

It is important for me to point out that being Christian is not "being saved". Salvation and Christianity are related, but two distincly different things. Christianity builds upon salvation - it is the process of being (living, acting, etc.) like Christ. Salvation alone does not make someone a Christian, and a Christian cannot be a Christian without first accepting Christ's offering of salvation from sin. There is more material here worthy of discussion, but I will quit here to keep the focus on the topic at hand.

Did I answer your question sufficiently?

Klumsy

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From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
often as christians we can be much harder on homosexual sin than other sexual sin, much out of judgement and hate and homophobia rather than desire for the freedom giving truth and love for the individual..

but i maintain that a praciticing homosexual cannot be a christian, espcially if they maintain that such act is not wrong , and not a sin, and not requiring the covering of Jesus's blood therefore they don't get the covering of Jesus's blood nor the forgiveness..

as for people "born" homosexual.. most studies have shown that overwhealmingly either an absent father or overbearing mother have been major contributing factors to homosexuals.. not being born that way..

Though i do believe that people can be 'born' that way to a point. Either by some generational curse passed onto them, or as a fleshly tendency
it might sound like i am agreeing with all those gay rights people that use 'being born that way' as an excuse and justification for it being normal and not wrong.

However we are all born sinners, with tendency to sin, different people have weaknesses in different areas, and face different temptations. Even the sins commonly committed by men and women are different. However we are still held accountible for our actions.
rape is still wrong even if some men are born with an "uncontrolably strong" sexual urge to the point of rape.
and having a tendency to anger is no excuse or justification to verbal or physical abuse, whether small or murder.

think how absurd it would be if there was a 'voilent men's rights' groups claiming that we were just born that way it is ok , and even normal for men born with such violent streaks to beat up or even kill people"

so Yes people can have a tendency to that, and actually maybe no attraction to the opposite sex.

however with all sins, they can be forgiven, the power of sin broken, and we can be more than overcomers in Christ, with His power changing us. The same to the homosexual.. its a paradox, the church needs to accept and love non christian homosexual in the church, however we need to expel those amoung us who continue to practice (not just falling and getting forgiven by the same mercy and grace we are all forgiven as mercy triumphs over judgement), we need to expel those who practice and yet claim to be christian, and claim that it is normal, and right, and who are blinded by the god of this world unto their own judgement, and who make the sacrifice of Christ on the cross for them null and void for they refuse to recognise their sin and thus their need for a saviour.

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BKewl

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Posts: 144
From: St. Charles, MO, USA
Registered: 07-10-2002
Great responses, the both of you! You guys sure made short order of this topic

Anyone who skipped over the above two posts because they were too long: go and read them; there's tons of great stuff in them, that all of us as Christians should pay attention to.

I brought this up because a friend said to me that homosexuals can be Christians, since it's a struggle (just like alcoholics can be Christians). He's right, (and you guys are right, too) in that he was referring to those homosexuals who are not prideful in their sin, but rather realize it's a problem and are turning to God for freedom from that, or seeking some sort of help (likewise, the alcoholic wouldn't be reveling in drunkenness, but would most likely be seeking a way out of his bondage).

Klumsy, I'd just like to especially point out how you're right that we are so much harder on homosexual sin than other sin. It almost seems to me that homosexuality is rebuked more than pride (that is, hubris, not gay pride), which is scary because I would see pride as far more pervasive, dangerous, and offensive to God than homosexuality. The thing is, homosexuality is seeing more and more footholds in our culture nowadays than it has in the past, and the number of people claiming it seems to be exploding (though that could be due to media bias). I think it's safe to say it's a "hot topic," and that's a big reason for Christians being so adamant about it (unfortunately, all too often we forget to mention that we, too, are sinners saved only by God's grace, and that grace is as free to homosexuals as it is to us; we end up sounding legalistic, condemning, and unloving, and as the only glimpse the world gets of God is through us, that's not a pretty picture).

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
I would say it's possible to be a homosexual and a Christian at the same time. I mean... God's forgives all our sins, even ones we will and continue to commit. I'm not going to limit God.

but, you can't be gay and be a strong christian. the lifestyle will drag you down and keep you from growth.

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Brandon

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Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
I would say it's possible to be a homosexual and a Christian at the same time. I mean... God's forgives all our sins, even ones we will and continue to commit. I'm not going to limit God.

but, you can't be gay and be a strong christian. the lifestyle will drag you down and keep you from growth.


Greetings.
I'd have to disagree with that. While it's true that God forgives all sin, it is also true that there is a limit to this. Check out these following verses:

Hebrews 10:26 -KJV-
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


When someone asks Jesus to come into thier heart, I don't think it's possible for them to still be a homosexual, although they will probally have those same thoughts and be tempted. But "Greater is he that is in me than he that is in the world" If what you said were true then IMHO I believe that would make it possible for a serial killer to become a Christian and continue killing and be a Chritian at the same time. Cause God would forgive him.


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[This message has been edited by Brandon (edited February 20, 2004).]

zookey

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Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
I agree mostly with Nfektous and Klumsy--------but I feel a homosexual can be christian------------------we all do things wrong whether we respect them as wrong or not--and one sin is all it takes---plus, when ppl were going to kill a prostitute Jesus said 'Let he who is without sin throw the first stone'-------ie we should not focus on gay ppl's sinning but instead focus on sharing the Plan of Salvation with the whole world---both with heteros and homos

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
quote:
Originally posted by Brandon:
Greetings.
I'd have to disagree with that. While it's true that God forgives all sin, it is also true that there is a limit to this. Check out these following verses:

[b]Hebrews 10:26 -KJV-
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,... etc...
[/B]


you know what, you have a very good point.
must think about this one.

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BKewl

Member

Posts: 144
From: St. Charles, MO, USA
Registered: 07-10-2002
Remember that there's a difference between being a Christian and stumbling into homosexuality (as we all stumble into all kinds of sin all the time) and wholeheartedly embracing that lifestyle (which would be a complete rejection of things in the Bible, essentially seeing the sin and saying there's nothing wrong with it).
Curry
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Posts: 134
From: USA
Registered: 11-21-2002
Some great points here, I agree mostly, but there's one glaring omission and that's deception. Since the arguments here are looking at action + intent rather than just the act, then in addition to those already considered (not gay, struggling with it, wilfully rebelling in it) there is one more: deceived by false information about it. Obviously, the person may pass through different stages temporarily as well.

(The concept of true deception for believers might be often overlooked, but it exists and we can easily prove it.)

So, a deceived homosexual could self-identify as a Christian with much conviction. I've seen a lot of that, by the way. Also happens to non-homosexuals who are bamboozled on the issue.

That's self-labeling as a Christian. How about being a Christian in reality? Reality in this case means God's viewpoint, and ultimately being a Christian or not, considering everything, is getting into a realm of judgment which I think we must leave to God. We can judge the behavior, the group of people in general, and even the individual within certain limits (congregation membership, personal or social group acceptance, criminal justice, etc.) But we can't judge the individual wholly; that's for God to do.

The existence of deception also shows the importance of the "culture war" or struggle for conveying truthful information and encouraging intelligence and morality in society.

Curry

nfektious
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Curry, good post. There definitely is an increasing degree of deceptive information out there - and mostly it is being accepted as truth because it has been documented or has been a commonly held belief for years (in some cases, accepted for generations and passed along to the next).

I happened to come across this in looking for something entirely unrelated and thought I would share it here since it applies and offers both sides of the argument: http://www.russpickett.com/basic/homs.htm
{I don't know anything about the author and am not endorsing him or his site.)

Crptc_Prgrmr

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I think the distinction between salvation and being Christian is the best way of putting it. You show me a Christian, and I'll show you a sinner saved by grace. If you knowingly continue in sin, you cannot be living in the Truth. (I agree with the point that people can be harder on this particular sin than others, but it also seems that more people are ready to be proud of living in it than in other muck). I even saw a newspaper article trying to drum up support for gays from the "silent Christian majority", who don't include the "fundamentalist", hardheaded of us. So basically we are being called to choose a political agenda over what the Bible clearly states is sin. Worse still, some supposedly Christian leader stated that when faced with heresy or division, we should always choose heresy! (and has been echoed by others). I think there will be some pretty shocked people on judgement day.

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So if I stand let me stand on the promise that you will pull me through, and if I can't let me fall on the grace that first brought me to you. And if I sing let me sing for the joy that has born in me these songs, and if I weep let it be as a man who is longing for his home.
(Rich Mullins)

D-SIPL

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well said crptc_prgrmr!

--D-SIPL

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mikey4him

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From: everett, wa, us
Registered: 09-07-2004
I love Jesus and I have had a relationship with him for about year now. However my brother is living with another homosexual man far from my family. To make a long story short he says that he and his mate both put God first in their relationship and life. That they truely have love for God but they are gay, in fact they say that in the past year (they been together for almost 2 years) they are drawing closer to God and want his will done in their life. This is tough for me because I'm fairly new to being on fire at 19 and hes 23 and much smarter. Thanks and God bless
GUMP

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From: Melbourne, FL USA
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So they are point-blank disobeying God's Word and yet still claim to be drawing closer...? I've heard that claim before... and due to that experience I have a hard time believing it.

I was going to say more but decided not to.

Klumsy

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Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
the human heart is deceitful above all things,
this is exactly the fruit of the age we live in, with false religion/spirituality, doctrines of demons, false teachers, false doctrines etc
quote:

1But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God-- 5having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.

quote:

romans 1
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

i've seen it so much in my own country NZ in the last few months, where our lesbian prime minister has introduced the equivilant of gay marriage, and various "christian groups" have supported them, saying it is progress and all good, while t.v has been slamming the christian "cults" that hold to the fact that it is sin. i've listened into parliment radio where different Members of Parliment (equiv of sentators) (including one transexual!!) have been slamming churches who hold the view that homoxesuality is a sin, and have been spouting legaslative ideas of how to deal with us, how to ban us, restrict our voice , our "interlorence"("hate speech in their terminology). its all happening and its happening fast..

but as christians we must remember that we don't battle against flesh and blood, homosexuals are not our enemy
we have to be consistant in our morality, and not turning a blind eye to 'fornication and adultery', we mustn't be homophobic, but must love these people like Christ loves us, understanding His grace is sufficent for us and for them..
but for those who claim to be christians, yet continue in sin, claiming it not as sin, we are to not associate with them.

as for your brother continue to love him, but stand up for the truth, first though spend most time in prayer, asking God to work in his heart, and to remove the deception from his eyes and mind, and sicen your brother confesses to still be a christian , bombard him with the Word of God, for the word of God is powerful , truth and light, and if he claims to be a christian, open to the word, there is alot of material you can give to him , in love, material that still respects him as a person and individual, but speaks the truth in love, there is alot of good material on this topic, and stuff from ex-homosexuals etc such as sy rogers
http://www.syrogers.com/
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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited September 07, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited September 07, 2004).]

crazyishone

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"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins"

That scares the crap out of me!

Here is my problem... its a small bit off topic, but i dont want to start a new one just for what im about to say. As I was saying... here is my problem... i've recently rededicated my life to Chrst at a Church camp, and while I was there everything was great. But, when i got home, i slipped back into a certain sinful habit. Now, i'd like to stop... except when the "urge"comes on, i lose all will to fight it, then feel kind of guilty afterwards. This verse basically says that there is no hope for me....

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It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Abe Lincoln

CobraA1

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From: MN
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quote:

But, when i got home, i slipped back into a certain sinful habit. Now, i'd like to stop... except when the "urge"comes on, i lose all will to fight it, then feel kind of guilty afterwards. This verse basically says that there is no hope for me....

Keep praying, keep fighting, get support of family and peers, keep reading the Bible. With Gods's help, I'm sure it can eventually be overcome. Despite the habit, you are still a Christian.

God has promised that no matter what the problem, it will never be so bad you cannot overcome it and stop being a Christian. God has promised that he will be with you always, and that he will help you remain strong in the faith. Do not fear, for God is with you.

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Reasoning with non-believers without encouraging them to read the Bible, I have found, is quite useless. God's word convinces - not our own reason.
--CobraA1

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Klumsy

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Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
you still see your sin as sin, and desire for righteousness and purity despite your cycle of failure/shame/guilt

remember God's GRACE
and if the area of temptation/falling in sin is sexual commit to the course here, its free, its 60 days

http://www.settingcaptivesfree.com/home/

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
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Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Brandon

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Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
Yes Sy Rogers is a great source, he visited our Church a few months ago. And his testimoney was amazing. At that time, his testimoney made it clear to me that no one has gone to far that God can't save them.

crazyishone
It's true that all sin is willfull, but I think that what it speaks of here is simular to what the Old Testament calls high-handed sin, that's the attitude of "I'm going to continue this particular sin whether God likes it or not!"

But struggling with a sin and being truly repentant of it, is not the same as that. I am not saying that it isn't sin. But remember what Jesus said, if your hand causes you to sin to cast it off. It's better to enter heaven without one than to enter hell with both. Which means, whatever it is that causes you to repeat the habit, cast it off. Run away from it, get rid of it.


Also, I've learned something else. When the enemy comes to us with temptation. We should not focus on not doing the sin and say something like "I'm not gonna sin, I'm not gonna sin..etc..." But instead do what the LORD Jesus did Himself, turn on the light! Get out the Bible and read. Quote those scriptures, "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me."

God Bless!

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3rd Day Studios

"So many laughing at Jesus,"
"Well the funniest thing that He's done,"
"Is love this poor stubborn rebellious world,"
"While the hate for Him just goes on."

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited September 08, 2004).]

crazyishone

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ty
like i said though, often the motivation to stop goes away immdeiately prior to the sin

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It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Abe Lincoln

Klumsy

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Registered: 10-25-2001
www.settingcaptivesfree.com

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
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Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Simon_Templar

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From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
I'd have to say a person can be both a homosexual and a christian... but not for very long. One will eventually win out over the other. That is not to say that someone who was a homosexual and has become a christian will never be tempted again... being tempted is not failing. Being tempted to take a drink doesn't make someone an alcoholic.

While its true that God can forgive *almost*(there is at least one sin said in scripture to be unforgivable) any sin, including homosexuality, and in that sense, no sin is worse, it is true that some sins have worse consequences for us. Sexual sins in particular are worse because as God said they are the only sins we commit against ourselves. Also, it is clear in scripture that God's reaction to homosexuality is to give those who choose it over to deluded minds and perversion. this is particularly terrible for people because it means it is much more difficult for them to ever see the truth again.

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-- ignorance can be educated, immaturity can be grown out of, and drunkeness can be sobered, but stupid lasts forever.

Klumsy

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From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
well said

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
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the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz




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I disagree in a way.

A Christian article said that you are not sinning if you are gay and you do not do gay activities. But I kind of disagree in a way since if they are thinking about it then they are sinning in the mind like the bible says. If they think about it too much they might be or are obsesses and will do it.

Also if someone sins and says itís ok to do the sin then they are not acting Christian. If an atheist that acts like a Christian is a Christian, and a Christian that acts like a heathen is not a Christian.

You can repent if you do not regret so if they do not regret what they do and they are proud of it they can not be truly forgiven and they are not "acting" like Christians.

Homosexuals can change since some have if they try hard enough and believe what they are doing is wrong which some have after they found true Christianity and not say they are Christian without acting it.

The problem is that many people say they are Christians but most of there actions says otherwise. Kind of like how many people in Sodom and Gomorra thought they were fine people but God thought otherwise. One gay person I talked to said that he canít help it but he thinks itís not right that some straight people try to be gay and finds that sick. Itís like me wanting to be a retard in a wheelchair.

We should not attack homosexuals since everyone sins, but we have to understand that they sometimes can not help it, or do not want to help it. Some people are born handicap of the body and some are born handicap of the mind. If everyone in the world acting like a homosexual then no more human race. We are not animals, we are given a brain to use it and think than go on hedonism to please our nerve endings.

This society is trying to push that homosexual activities are find and that Christianity discriminates which this is silly. Like Christ said we should be more like Christ and not less like Christ. It is funny how homosexuality is an issue about morality in the media but fornication which is more widely done is not mentioned since it suites them. It is like one person steals $100 and another steals $1, and we complain about the $1 being stolen. :

ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
quote:
ut I kind of disagree in a way since if they are thinking about it then they are sinning in the mind like the bible says.
that's a very broad way to look at it. The bible talks about the "heart."
if you lust in your heart, etc... but if you are talking about people having gay fantasy, then yes, it's sin.

quote:
Also if someone sins and says itís ok to do the sin then they are not acting Christian. If an atheist that acts like a Christian is a Christian, and a Christian that acts like a heathen is not a Christian.
huh? are you saying we are or aren't christians by our works?

quote:
You can repent if you do not regret so if they do not regret what they do and they are proud of it they can not be truly forgiven and they are not "acting" like Christians.

only God can give a repentnant heart. if it was us, we'd be getting salvation by works, which is untrue. they could be fighting it, losing but fighting.

quote:
Some people are born handicap of the body and some are born handicap of the mind.
since does that change anything?
a)people are not born gay. nothing says that people are born gay, even gay activists will admit it. it tends to form around pre-puberty.
b) even if they did, they are still responsible for their actions.

quote:
It is funny how homosexuality is an issue about morality in the media but fornication which is more widely done is not mentioned since it suites them
a)homesexuality is worse. not only being a sexual sin ( a sin against the very body), it's a step lower. the bible talks about God putting this sin on people after they have already descended in sin.
b) fornication has no shocking element. we all know about it. why talk about it? it's nothing new.
c)yes, your right. more people commit fornication, and thus want to keep it from the light.
quote:
It is like one person steals $100 and another steals $1, and we complain about the $1 being stolen. :
no,it's not.

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Simon_Templar

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Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
When I said that being tempted is not sinning, I did not mean that a person could then do something in their mind just so long as they don't really do it. That isn't what temptation is. Temptation is when your circumstances cause you to suddenly desire to do something wrong (and that includes thoughts that may jump into your mind without you wanting to think about it.) Resisting temptation would then be to bannish such thoughts and desires and refuse to allow them entrance into your mind, if you can't bannish them, then flee from them.
If you have a thought of temptation, and then sit there and entertain the thought and fantasize about it, that is giving in to temptation.


Its very true that fornication and adultery are both more common than homosexuality, they are even common among the church. However, it is also true that homosexuality is more perverse than fornication, and while either one will get you an express ticket to the fire if you don't repent of them and have them washed away by the blood of Jesus, sins that are more perverse, in general have worse effects both for the individual who commits them and for the society that tolerates them.

I don't want to get off topic into a discussion of works vs. faith and grace, but I would like to point out that the actions of a christian's life can not be discounted. I believe that the bible pretty clearly teaches that faith must be substantive and it must be evident. Simply put you can have works without faith, and they will do you no good, but you can not have faith without works. Now there will always be times in people's lives when they are having hard times, dry times, and don't seem to be producing the kind of fruit you would expect from a christian, and we have to be careful not to judge people in those circumstances too harshly. However, many people teach, and believe that if you accept the fact that Jesus is who he says he is, it doesn't matter how you live, or what you do and you don't have to worry about being obedient etc.. this is simply not true. God is not mocked. The term I've always liked for this is "Jesus Christ Fire Insurance". People would be well served by more often reading what Jesus himself had to say about following him.

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-- ignorance can be educated, immaturity can be grown out of, and drunkeness can be sobered, but stupid lasts forever.

Seven

Junior Member

Posts: 3
From:
Registered: 12-13-2004
Hello all, I am new to this site, but I have a question that has been plaguing me. I have just recently rededicated my life to the church, so many questions are swarming. Anyway, I have read the above comments and the overwhelming sentiment seems that Christianity and homosexuality cannot exist for long. My best friend just told me recently that she was gay, grew up in a two parent, Catholic home. Because of the rejection of her parents and the church, she has also lost her faith, and I may have lost her as a friend to because she thinks that it is only a matter of time before I reject her.

So, what do Christians say to gay people? I mean, are we to tell them, that while many may have always had feelings for members of their gender, that they are to exist in unfulfilling heterosexual relationships, or that they are to be celibate? Anyone who knows a gay person knows that homosexuality is not about the sex, it is about relationships and attraction, the same thing that heterosexuals seek? So are homosexuals to exist without relationships? I know the doctrine, I have heard the arguments over and over again, but when it comes down to it, what does one Christian say to one gay person about how that person must live?

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
quote:
So, what do Christians say to gay people?

Let me put it this way: Our goal should not be to alienate them, our goal should be to gently educate them as to why we disagree with their lifestyle.

quote:
Anyone who knows a gay person knows that homosexuality is not about the sex, it is about relationships and attraction, the same thing that heterosexuals seek?

In Hollywood, yes, a relationship is all about attraction. Unfortunately, Hollywood has a pretty shallow view of what relationships should be about. Dating, engagements, and marriage are all about leading to a relationship that will produce a family. Homosexuality does not produce a family (at least not through natural means).

Unfortunately, our society has moved away from being centered on the family to being centered on fleeting, selfish relationships that often do not last and may lead to emotional hardships.

quote:
what does one Christian say to one gay person about how that person must live?

I'd ask them if they've thought about the family side of the equation. After all, they can't have children, do they really want to be that way their whole lives?

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
quote:
Anyone who knows a gay person knows that homosexuality is not about the sex, it is about relationships and attraction, the same thing that heterosexuals seek?

um. no, it's about sex. you can have close homies of the same sex without being gay, it's the sex part that makes someone homosexual. kinda screams it out in the name, really.
attraction is about sex. it's looking for good genes and a healthy carrier to continue the species.
besides, in biology, everything is about sex.

quote:
what does one Christian say to one gay person about how that person must live?

give 'em a bible.

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Seven

Junior Member

Posts: 3
From:
Registered: 12-13-2004
Well, I can see that marriage and relationships used to be about having a family, but there are many relationships now that do not produce children, not only in cases of infertility, but also by choice. and then there are families that adopt children, but don't have children of their own, so I am not really sure that that particular way of looking at relationships currently applies.

Secondly, clearly the actual word "homosexual" means having sex with someone of the same gender. However, there are gay people who are looking for a relationship, which is not about sex, in fact the gay people that I have met, have not been those interested in fly by night shallow relationships. And in terms of what we should tell them, they can pick up a bible on their own. I am not really sure that i have received any answers here. Thanks anyway

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
If you're looking in the Bibles for examples of loving same-sex/non-homosexual relationships look at Ruth and Naomi, David and Jonathan, and Daniel and Ashpenaz. Of course, homosexual activists often try to convince people that those WERE homosexual relationships... :rollseyes:
Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
Hello Seven. Welcome to CCN!

First I must ask this question. Have you rededicated your life only to the church, or to Jesus Christ? Have you received Him into your life as your Lord and Savior? Have you submitted your life to Him?

I can relate to having a friend that has lost their faith. The best thing that you can do is to pray to God that He will give you guidance with your friend. And be a real friend under all circumstances. Let the light of Christ shine through you. I'm guessing that everyone has rejected her except for the gay community? The church in your area should welcome her with open arms, not to embrace her sin but to tell her that Jesus loves her, and they do to, even in her current condition. He doesn't want her to live that way.

I also agree that homosexulity is more than the physical sexual act. It seems to stem from the person not connecting to their own gender in the correct way. Suprisingly it has little to do with not relating to the opposite sex. It's more about wanting to be accepted by the same gender. But, (correct me if I'm wrong) in your friends case it seems to be springing from rejection. I'd pray a lot, and be a friend, but not accept what she's doing as okay.

What your friend is looking for she will never find in a relationship between any other person,... except for Jesus Christ. He doesn't remove our emotions, but He fulfills them.

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If you let your faith go cold enough, there might come a point where you don't want to turn back to God. That would be tragic. -- Quote from Keith Green

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Seven

Junior Member

Posts: 3
From:
Registered: 12-13-2004
To Brandon
First, yes to the first questions that you asked.

Second, thanks for your input, that was helpful.

Simon_Templar

Member

Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
Seven,

First off, your experience seems to be with homosexual people who are not about the multiple partner extreme promiscuous sex but rather are seeking "love". The truth is that everyone is looking for love, its just that some people's desire for love has been subverted into lust.
My experience with homosexuals has been somewhat different than yours. I had a couple of friends who were gay and I even lived with one of them for quite a while. For them, I have no doubt they wanted love, but what they did was go through partner after partner, going to the bars every night looking for new partners.
In both cases they were guys i spent alot of time with and knew them pretty well. Alot of the things they said indicated to me that there were things in their life that had robbed them of the feeling of closeness and genuine love with other men, including their fathers ( though in both cases the fathers were in the homes growing up). It was that desire for closeness and genuine love that they were seeking, but it had become subverted and perverted in their minds until it could no longer present itself as a desire for close relationship, but rather only as sexual lust.

I don't think that every case of homosexuality derives from the same causes, but I do think in most cases it involves alot of misplaced desires. Ultimately what that means is that homosexual people will never find happiness or fulfillment in homosexual relationships because sensuality and sex is not really what they are looking for so it will never satisfy what they need. The same way greedy people are never satisfied by more money because greed is a misplaced desire. Money isn't what they really want so it never satisfies.
Sadly its almost impossible for people with misplaced desires like that to see what they really want. Their mind has buried it and repressed it so far that its impossible for it to come out.
I just had to deal with a guy last night on my job who was severely paranoid and delusional. It was amazing how his mind took everything, every word other people said, every thing that happened, even questions he couldn't answer, and turned them back inward to support his delusions. The mind is an amazing thing, sadly its ability to rationalize and protect itself makes it nearly impossible to get through simply with reasoning and talking.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

lordforus

Junior Member

Posts: 1
From: canada
Registered: 12-30-2004
It is very important that we dont mock God, I say this because we can not say we are Christians and practice the fleshly acts of this world. The act of homosexuality is an abomination. (Leviticus 18:22-23) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion. its good reading continue the chapter. (IKings 14:22) And there were also sodomites in the land: and they did according to all the abominatons of the nations which the LORD cast out before the children of Isreal. So now we get into what the punishment for this act is, (Leviticus 20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them. (Romans 1:24,26,27) 24)Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dihonour their own bodies between themselves: 25)Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more the the Creator, wo is blessed for ever Amen. 26) For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27) And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet. 28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; etc. down to 32) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such theings are worthy of death, not only do the same , but have pleasure in them that do them.

I hope everyone that read these scriptures pay very close attention to Gods' tolerance for such an act of the homosexuals so no u can not be a homosexual and be Christian. Person cant serve two and by u fruits man will know who u serve. they will change Gods law in order to fit their life style, its already happing in Canada. Also the churches standards are now tolerating the works of their life style (not all) should be none.
just please dear christians don't subject yourself to the suducing spirits their lies remember these are still demons we are contending with.
please seek God in every opinion concerning these issues, we are not judging harshly, we r going by scripture and dont back down from what God says about homosexuality. Stand up for Jesus, dont be decieved God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And because the world is chaniging to better suit how the world wants to live we r not to conform to this world. God Bless You all. And please don't bow down, im not saying their not nice ppl in their heart im just saying they need to repent and turn form their wicked ways. If our justice system was still like their time of old. They all would be put to death and that is what we need to remember, its because of the very nature of the act defiles a nation, spiritual feelings like pride or jelousy etc. they can be dealt with and tolerated till God gets to us an we choose to repent. What they r doing though nah that isnt right by any means. So no u can't be a homosexual and a Christian, the nerve even to put them in the same sentence, what is this world coming to!

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Jesus is Lord and he is the answer for all situations and deliverance

jesus_lover

Junior Member

Posts: 7
From: toronto
Registered: 01-09-2005
i agree with scripture and it is true that God condemns sodomity and homosexual relations. but that's God. we as people are called to "Love your neighbour like yourself" and we must not condemn people with other sexual orientations ( homosexual,bisexual, two spirited etc.) since that is not our job. our job is to love and care for thme as for our selves. this doesn't mean helping them find partners, but it does mean that we should run to them and start yelling "REPENT !! REPENT !!" we should instead try and be a testment of the Lords love for them. many homo-bi-etc-sexual ppl are not happy at all. The fact that they need a parade to feel accepted in society as people says enouygh aboutthe love the world has shown them - the lack there-of. it is easier to condemn thn to love that's for sure. love requires incolvment and im sure there are alot 'christians' out there who are not even wiling to approach homo-bi-etc-sexuals because they're weird or whatever. be alight to the them, a blessing, a friend, a source of comfort in their time of need and your testimony (not spoken but acted out) will be confirmed in their hearts by the Holy Spirit and they will come to god on their own. Trying to force people to repent before they're born again _WILL_ not work. it will aonly turn people away from Christ and his followers, it's like re-inacting the inquisition because they may end-up in hell because of you! please, dont force people to repent before they're born again. they probably dont even understand what repentance truly is. God bless i hope i made sense...

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Halleluja!!!

bennythebear

Member

Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
i agree. you can't force anyone to repent anyway, at least not from their heart. God's that one who convicts, and He's also the one who forgives. when i first got saved i tried to explain that homosexuality was the same in God's eyes as any other sin, or at least that it wasn't any harder for Him to forgive. of course, my cousins didn't agree, but teenagers in a town called horsebranch, in kentucky(one word...rednecks). i'm big on God's mercy, 'cause it's what i cling to, i screw up all the time. i'm not going and sleeping around and everything like that, but stuff along those lines(not gay, strait stuff). but i can tell you everytime i feel like crap when i'm doing it, i feel worse when i'm done, and i beat myself up for about a week after i've done it. i see it like this, if i can be forgiven, anybody can be forgiven. 'cept those who blasphemed the Holy Ghost.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

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