spade89 Member Posts: 561 From: houston,tx Registered: 11-28-2006 |
hi i will be graduating from highschool this year and i am interested in a career in programming,i know c/c++,java and vb. but what i am having a hard time with is all of the collages i've checked out have programming courses on the languages i already know,so is there any way to be a career programmer and not learn the stuff you already know? would any software company hire a programmer that doesn't have a collage degree? if anybody could help me out with this huge problem i have i would really appreciate it. oh and i also know graphics designing and a bit of web designing/developing. ------------------ |
SSquared Member Posts: 654 From: Pacific Northwest Registered: 03-22-2005 |
> would any software company hire a programmer that doesn't have a collage degree? Yes, if you have prior experience. Otherwise, I think it will be pretty tough to find a job. You need to have real world experience. If you have done things on your own, or worked at your school, those will definitely take you quite far. But if you have nothing to show on a resume, it will be hard to find a position. The only other option is if you know someone who can speak on your behalf to get your resume noticed. We are currently hiring for an entry level QA Tester and we want experience. Even if they have a college degree, we want them to have some background in testing, hardware, scripting, and stuff like that. Not everyone we talk with has a college degree, but their resume shows experience elsewhere. Please don't be disappointed as you look for colleges and see some familiar languages being used. There is a lot more to learning a language than simply learning the language. You will learn data structures, databases, networking, and much more. The language used may be C++ or Java, for example, but will cover many topics and areas you may have never previously studied. 1) Do you have networking experience? Sockets, for example? If you have this type of experience, then FANTASTIC! You probably have a good background on writing and developing software. I have been involved with the hiring process for my companies. Here is an example of some questions I would probably ask an entry level software developer. 1) What is the difference between a class and an instance? If you haven't already, check the newspaper and web for jobs in your area. What types of skills are they seeking? I have found this a great indicator of topics I need to learn. The software market is continually changing and it's important to keep up with what's happening. If this is truly what you want to do, keep at it! Study. Learn. See if there are any projects you can do for school? Maybe there's a little handy application you can write to help simplify a teacher's task(s). Or perhaps even a little homework tool for the students. Start with something which will convert between Celsius/Fahrenheit, cm/in, m/ft, etc. One final comment. There are many factors which go into hiring someone. Having programming skills is certainly important but there are 'soft skills' which are important too. Things like how well you work with others, how well you explain thoughts, desire to learn, leader or follower, and more. For example, by writing that little student homework tool, you have suddenly gained experience through feedback from the students. Receiving reported bugs and fixing them. Suggestions for new options to add. Perhaps getting feedback on usability. It also shows a proactive attitude. |
bennythebear Member Posts: 1225 From: kentucky,usa Registered: 12-13-2003 |
i'm glad he's asked these questions, because the answers he's gotten has helped me out. along with this and the thread by steveth45, about how he went from working at a coffeeshop to getting a job in game development shoudl show people that with God, and with effort, getting a job in development is possible. the main thing you need is experience in the relative field. ------------------ proverbs 25:7 www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs |
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smkcbe Junior Member Posts: 6 From: Registered: 10-07-2003 |
I totally agree with Ssquared. To get a job in developing, most companies will look for experience. Especially experience in the area that company does work in. Also, many will require a college degree if you don't have any work experience. Why is a college degree important? Some of the classes you take in college won't even pertain to programming!! Well, there's a lot more to development than just knowing the language. You need to know how to work in a team environment as you won't be the only programmer. You need to know how to read complex pieces of code someone else wrote, learn it quickly, and make updates. You need to know how to write boring design documents and express your ideas to people that may not like it. =) You need to be able to quickly learn new ideas such as networking, API's, database, other programming languages, etc... And, most of all, you'll need to learn how to work in pressure situation where time is short. As you can see, there still lots to learn and college can help simulate these experiences, because no company will take the time to teach you the things they expect you to already know. If you can't perform the work, then they'll just let you go and find someone else more able. I'm in the game business and I can tell you that the deadline are short and pressure is high. I know this sounds kinda harsh, but I've been there before and I really hope you'll reconsider your view about college. On the positive side, I have known many people that ended up being devlopers even if they had no college degree or programming background. Most work their way up in the company. ------------------ |
steveth45 Member Posts: 536 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-10-2005 |
What everyone said was good. I got a programming job without a programming related degree. However, I do have a college degree, and that was very important in getting the job I have now. I would say that having a college degree of any kind is a huge help in getting a better job. I've seen numerous statistics that show the same thing. A college degree doesn't teach you about new and exciting programming languages, it teaches you how to think critically, communicate, process a lot of information, organize your thoughts, and work in groups. These skills are used every day by programmers, and employers know that. Bottom line is, two people with comparable skills walk into a job interview, the one with the college degree gets the job. Instead of a CS degree, I got an English degree. Lots of Lit and Writing classes. I loved it. The programming stuff, I learned on my own. Some folks may do better with a CS degree, and it may give you a better chance at getting the programming job that you want, but I feel like I gained a lot more from my time at the University because I got a BA instead of a BS. ------------------ [This message has been edited by steveth45 (edited December 05, 2006).] |
Mack Administrator Posts: 2779 From: Registered: 01-20-2001 |
Dude, change your avatar size. I've PMed you and emailed you on it. |
GUMP Member Posts: 1335 From: Melbourne, FL USA Registered: 11-09-2002 |
If you're looking at a general career in software engineering whether you need a degree really comes down to (1) who you know and (2) the people in the HR department. I heard some crazy stories while working at a large defense contractor years ago. Supposedly there was this guy old enough to be my grandfather who had been working in this career since the giant mainframes. He was working in the field before the college degrees even existed...so he never got one. So he submits his resume to the HR department and they shoot him down due to the lack of a degree. My project lead found out about that and was angry since the guy was way overqualified and we were unlikely to have another person like him submit. Moral of the story. Even if you know your stuff it pays to have a degree. |
PointOfLight Member Posts: 60 From: Indiana, USA Registered: 11-26-2001 |
I'm basically going to be reitterating parts of what everyone else has said, but I think a degree is important. Not so much because of what you learn academically to get the degree, but more because of what you learn about the social and business worlds that lie beyond the educational sector. If you already feel that you have decent programming experience, get a degree in something besides computer science (I wish I had). Just get that piece of paper. Especially in an industry like programming that is becoming more widely outsourced to other countries, you need as much to make you stand out from the crowd as possible. In addition to that, and possibly more important, as some have suggested, is the experience. It's not enough to have just "learned the languages". You need to have something to show for that knowledge. Build a web site. Write some kind of program that you can post to shareware outlets. Try to get involved with a group of people that are developing software on their own, whether it's for fun or profit. The more practical experience you have under your belt, the better off you are. I have been programming since 2002, but because of the technology we use where I work I am having a hard time finding anyone interested in hiring me. Of course I can learn quickly when I need to, but they want me coming into the job already having the experience they require. That's just a quick real world example for you. ------------------ |
kiwee Member Posts: 578 From: oxfordshire, england Registered: 04-17-2004 |
I think your best bet would be to set up a desent programming portfolio (with things like mini-games, applications, graphics demos, and programmed 3D movies etc...) that you could show alongside your CV. ------------------ |
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bennythebear Member Posts: 1225 From: kentucky,usa Registered: 12-13-2003 |
i plan on going for web design and development. that's why i plan on doing a site for my church, very static, not dynamic. then maybe putting a bulletin board for prayer request, and adding an event calender. 2 good things about that: 1. it's something i can actually do for God, preaching is a calling, not a gift/talent...if that makes sense... 2. it's something to put in my portfolio, and it'll be great experience. i'm glad a couple of these threads have been started, because it reaffirms a lot of things i already knew, it's shown me stuff i didn't know, and it gives me a whole lot of motivation and increases my determination. some more advice, if you need inspiration to stay focused and work hard then read proverbs. being slothful is a bad thing. anywho...sorry if i went too far off topic. ------------------ proverbs 25:7 www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
more and more over time, a college degree is becoming more important. I'll tell you one thing, you'd be on the chopping block when it comes to layoffs if you don't have a degree. during the dot com crash, many companies just let go of all employees without degrees. yes, including receptionists and janitors (then automated/outsourced). And frankly, much of what you learn in a Computer Science program isn't just programming, but how to think like a coder. Knowing programming languages is like knowing how to spell. and one thing, yes, most of the valuable stuff you learn would be outside a degree. but the classes and that piece of paper do help. ------------------ |
Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
first thing. Pray... there are many many merits to a degree as pointed out well by many people here. but pray and follow God's leading. He is the one who goes before us and opens or closes doors whether that's via the discipline of study or "take a ride on the reading and get 200 bucks in the process". college is expensive in money and years. only go there with purpose,. not if yyou are unsure and are just following the cultural norms to. As for jobs. its a game of supply and demand on one hand and often contacts on the other. sadly there are many people who would get the job if given the time of daay for an interview but who don't look good enough on paper. when the market has a lot of people applying for the same job. in larger companies with an hr system the computer will filter out non matches (i.e no degree.less than 5 years experience) and a human won't even see you resume so that is hard. but still in this field demand is higher than supply with projected demand eising higher than projected supply so even without a degree you have a good chance. I suggest a portfolio. making real world software even as free hobyy projects does well and getting in demand skills and experience that is in short supply is more effective use of your time and money than a degree if you are the right kind of person. Every job I've had has required degrees and experience levels in the job ad far beyoond what I had but I suceeded well in each. In my longest job I had had no business dev experience and no degree but within 6 months I went from a newhire coder to the corporate software dev manager of a large multibillion dollar company responsible for a the design and implementation of a huge and critical project. but God opened the door . my part in the saga was I had only had hobby coding expierience plus game dev.but I was getting marrieed and diddnt want the lopay unhealthy hours lifestyle of game dev.so I looked and the demands in the business realm and spend 2 or 3 months educating myself and making portfolio apps that were relevant. however if you do go the non college path be sure not to dismiss all its content and to learn the concepts behind computer science well.there are a lot of semi good coders out ther with gaping holes in their understanding of essential concepts ------------------ |
zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
Hey Spade--sent ya a PM please get back to me when you have time  ------------------ |
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spade89 Member Posts: 561 From: houston,tx Registered: 11-28-2006 |
the answers most of you gave me is really interesting,i know the basics of java,vb,and c++,and i am learning socket programming and opengl in c++, and i am also thinking of getting microsoft and sun certifications for my c++ and java knowledge,i've passed most of the free online exams.i don't claim to know how to work with groups of people or in large projects.most of the stuff i code, i just code it for fun,and i still haven't learned mfc and i am having trouble getting swing running without the ide.so i think you are right college experience is a must-have,but the thing is i can learn mfc,swing or almost any language,in less than two weeks,in college they make you learn extra courses that have absolutley nothing to do with programming and the development world sounds really exciting,i just wanna gain experience as i go through because after all the real life development experience should count much more than the simulated enviroment of college,maybe i should just get into the buisiness and go to college parttime.and even if i go to college does which college i go to really matter in getting the job?afterall-a programmer at the local community college could do much better than some harvard graduate. i am asking that question because my highschool grades aren't too good,i get most of the stuff they teach but i just don't have time to study because i can't get myself to open any book without coding a little(i guess it relaxes my mind),and when i start coding a little ,a little gets a lot and before i know it's dawn and i have to go back to school.it's like i am addicted to c++.right now at this moment,i am trying to make a program that converts bitmaps to ascii art,and my final exams are three-days away and i don't know anything. my whole point is i have lots of passion and willingness to work hard learn more and more,sometimes studying for exams seems to be wasting my time a lot.and with the grades i have i don't think i will be going to mit or harvard anytime this milleneum,so even if i go to college would it really matter to the employers whether i went to a real lame college? my real question is two guys walk in to get a job,one has 4 years of experience the other has 4 years of college at some lame public college,who would get the job?and how about online degrees are they any good? I Would really like to hear your answers for these questions since most of you seem to know what you are talking about. /*oh and i also know basic hacking and security-related stuff. */ ------------------ |
D-SIPL Moderator Posts: 1345 From: Maesteg, Wales Registered: 07-21-2001 |
Here is how I got where I am now. Hope this is helpful.... As most are aware I got my first PC when I was 6 and pretty much a year or two later started using Slackware 3 (I still use Slackware to this day). I got into networking and programming shell scripts and basic Unix tasks. At 15 I went on work experience (compulsory for all UK students). I did my work placement at Hampshire County Council (Hampshire is the county i grew up in) doing networking. They were so impressed that the boss told me to call him as soon as I left school. So when I left i did exactly that. However he had since moved jobs and worked for a stock market software company in London. I called him up and he asked me to go for an interview, which I did. I started working in London at 16 and did so till I was 20. Cut a long story about drug addiction etc short, I decided to do what I had always wanted to do since a child... make christian computer games! I'm now mid-way through my second year here and loving every minute of it. I'm really thankful for getting into Linux at a really young age, hence why I am quite passionate about it. Anyways that's how my career has gone so far. I'm currently 22 btw At the end of the day you can do whatever you want to do. More specifically you should be asking God which direction He wants you to go. Without Him I would not be where I am now, thank you God! ------------------ |
buddboy Member Posts: 2220 From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S. Registered: 10-08-2004 |
as soon as i get out of highschool i will already have my associate's in electronic repair technology and i can get a job at UPS starting at 15.62 an hour. then i will attend IUS (Indiana University Southeast) for *free* because UPS pays 6000 a year for your college when you work there. =D =D =D =D a degree in collages? just pokin and jokin. i think what dartsman said is right. if you have prior experience, and you can show them that experience, yes. they would hire you. i know i would. i still think attending a college is good. so you already know it? it'll make the class easy. granted, it's boring, and you'll be wasting money to relearn something, but it will give you that edge. if you can do like me and get someone else to pay, why not? im actually planning on probably doing graphics design as my job and programming on my own, indie-style baby. i think that you know 3 good languages and you could try getting a temp job, that's always a good way to get hired. if they do that at your company of choice, that is. ------------------ |
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smkcbe Junior Member Posts: 6 From: Registered: 10-07-2003 |
Whether you get a 4yr degree or work your way up to 4yrs experience, you should get to the job you'll eventually want. For me, I went the college route. I think there's a lot more in college than learning your skills. I enjoyed the opportunity to be exposed to other fields and ideas, meet tons of new people, go to great parties...did I say parties? I meant, social gatherings...and be carefree a little while longer without the responsibility of the 9-5 job. The only downside was that I wasn't making any money and I actually had to pay for college. Nonetheless, it was a great experience. ------------------ |
