------------------
We're all in this together.

Other than that, I don't really know anything, I'm pretty much a newbie too

------------------
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
--Matt. 19:26

"Time is an excellent teacher, but eventually it kills all of its students."

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+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

There are quite a few people here that use BlitzBasic, it's the engine/code that Worms was written with. It's pretty easy to learn, it's designed for games and yes it does cost for the compiler but it's very inexpensive. They also have demo's that will get you started. Actually that is how I found CCN some months ago, I was rummaging around at the Blitz site for some B3D code examples and came across a link to here. www.blitzbasic.com it's also what I'm using for my mmorpg game project

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited October 25, 2006).]

Once that gets too easy, you can start using the code (GML = Game Maker Language) by looking at the included examples. My friend made a 16-player shooter-game which we all played at school on their network, so there's definitely a lot of cool things you can do with GM.

Ogre and Irrlicht are probably the most famous free engines.
I have tried a while ago Power Render 6. It's not a free engine but is has a free version for personal use.

http://www.devmaster.net/engines/

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gump:
Here is a more detailed list:

http://www.devmaster.net/engines/

---

celstart is nice in that it requires nothing but either python or XML , xml being the far easier of the two. YOu can even export all your scenes and objects via a exporter from blender called blender2crystal .

http://www.crystalspace3d.org < and celstart info at: http://www.crystalspace3d.org/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=CelStart

have fun

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

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that post was really cool ^
|
[|=D) <---|| me

But I wouldn't recommmend using it...

im wondering, how do you develop with CelStart?

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that post was really cool ^
|
[|=D) <---|| me

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lazarus:
Crystal Space 3D requires coding - C++ to be exact.

But I wouldn't recommmend using it...

---

Why is that?

------------------

------------------
that post was really cool ^
|
[|=D) <---|| me

It sounds like C++ was a positive thing and the bad part about it was unrelated to the language.

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[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited November 19, 2006).]

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

(edit - spelling)
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[This message has been edited by questleader (edited November 21, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mene-Mene:
I personally use Blitz Basic, which is quite simple, and straightforward. As for buying, all you need to do is download the Blitz 3d Demo, and that has unlimited time, but with a source limit (not bad actually) I personally bought the book (I didn't know about the B3d demo) and got a BB demo through that.

---

Yeah, they put a cap on your source's file size, but I never ran into it, unless I loaded up sources that people made with the full version.

But, if you want something more than GM, it's definately worth it.

------------------

[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited November 20, 2006).]

Case for Blitz is there are no extra charges, just compile and sell as many games you want to your hearts content after buying the compiler for $60-$100. Everything is pretty standard, no proprietary junk beyond a different language (that has been around for decades) which is C like.

Not sure when you last used Torque, but as long as I've known, they've had a pretty unrestrictive license. No matter if you're indie ($100 license) or commercial ($495), you still pay no royalties ever.

Also, most game code isn't written in C++ -- it's written in a language similar to Blitz -- it's proprietary but it's been around for a long time and is very C-like. If you want to dig down into the engine code you can, but especially with Torque Game Builder (the new 2D engine) I do everything in scripting and never have to touch C++. Torque Game Builder uses normal PNGs, JPGs, BMPs or GIFs for sprites and doesn't have any art issues, though you're right about the 3D engine being a little difficult at times to get your art into it properly. Most of the pre-packaged art that they sell on their website wasn't done by them though, and there is still plenty of free content out there for Torque users as well.

You say it's dated? So are most people's computers -- I currently don't have a machine that supports shaders, and most of my target audience doesn't either. It's very solid, and can do some very high quality artwork. Just the fact that it's got support for the 360 (and Marble Blast Ultra is published on there) says something. Blitz doesn't seem to market towards AAA game developers (unless I'm wrong -- are there Blitz games on Xbox Live?), but Torque does a nice job IMO of bridging the gap between the free and sparsely-documented engines and the other extreme of highly expensive commercial engines (like Unreal or Quake).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
Case for Blitz is there are no extra charges, just compile and sell as many games you want to your hearts content after buying the compiler for $60-$100. Everything is pretty standard, no proprietary junk beyond a different language (that has been around for decades) which is C like.

---

Aside from the different model formats that Torque uses, I think just about all of the above could be said about Torque with a different pricing model. If you start making it big (defined as more than a quarter million dollars in sales in a year), then they ask that you buy a version that costs more (but still a very reasonable price).

Nothing against Blitz -- everything that I've seen about it looks like a great toolset, and I know people who get some amazingly fast prototypes done in Blitz. I just didn't want other people getting the wrong impression from your (I feel somewhat inaccurate) slam on Torque.

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited November 20, 2006).]

Ohhh yeah, it says C++ “like” engine, well that pretty much nullifies the positive aspect of using it then. I said C++ as being in its favor, oh well. See? I wasn't simply slamming it, I did say positive things... but I guess I stand corrected on that positive thing though hehe

Well if you are looking for outdated, you certainly have it. Thing is, if you started making a game with it today that took an average amount of time to finish it (1-3 yrs) most of those people you know with slow computers will have probably gotten at least a shader 2 compatible system if not shader 3. For what I'm working on, shader 2 is a requirement which means most likely onboard graphics chips won't cut it, players will need a real graphics card. But isn't that generally the people that play games? They usually have a graphics card. If you are targeting people that usually don't play games than that's what you'll get... no one. Make any sense? Otherwise, maybe best to stick to web games perhaps.

But, BB and Torque really aren't fair comparisons. BB is a language and compiler, you add in everything else, it's not a middleware type suite like Torque is. I don't know how realistic it is to drop in a new rendering engine for torque, but since they sell a newer version that can support a current rendering engine than it's probably not that easy. With BB you can do just about anything.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
Mmmm I didn't say “royalties”. I'm referring to needing another license to make another game. So if you want to sell a game for $2 you pay the $700+ or so in fees and then can sell it. When you want to release another $2 game you buy another license.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
Ohhh yeah, it says C++ “like” engine, well that pretty much nullifies the positive aspect of using it then. I said C++ as being in its favor, oh well. See? I wasn't simply slamming it, I did say positive things... but I guess I stand corrected on that positive thing though hehe

---

Okay, you probably understand it, but just to clarify everything, the core engine (rendering, networking, physics, etc) is written in C++. The game play code (flag triggers, car-driving, helicopter controls, weapons, particle-effects, etc) is written in Torque Script, which is the C/C++-ish language.

Okay, so maybe you weren't slamming. Thanks for clarifying.

--clint

quote:

---

Okay, you probably understand it, but just to clarify everything, the core engine (rendering, networking, physics, etc) is written in C++. The game play code (flag triggers, car-driving, helicopter controls, weapons, particle-effects, etc) is written in Torque Script, which is the C/C++-ish language.

---

Which in truth is very similar to many other AAA engines out there, like Unreal.

quote:

---

But, BB and Torque really aren't fair comparisons. BB is a language and compiler, you add in everything else, it's not a middleware type suite like Torque is. I don't know how realistic it is to drop in a new rendering engine for torque, but since they sell a newer version that can support a current rendering engine than it's probably not that easy. With BB you can do just about anything.

---

You are definately right in that dropping in a new rendering engine into Torque would not be easy. Of course writing one for BB may not be considered "easy" either. I've found Torque to be very robust and though there are some gotchas (everything has these though) it is fairly easy to manipluate and change. In fact there are hundreds of resources that do just that, every user has access to all resources and even the old out of date ones serve as a great example for doing something.

quote:

---

Well if you are looking for outdated, you certainly have it.

---

Not exactly. TGE's rendering still has some fairly dated design aspects... then again so does Unreal 2.0 and to a lesser extent Unreal 2.5.

Tribes came out the same year as Unreal, so the concept of an engine starting that long ago and that it still must be outdated is fairly proven wrong considering how popular and powerful Unreal is.

quote:

---

For what I'm working on, shader 2 is a requirement which means most likely onboard graphics chips won't cut it, players will need a real graphics card. But isn't that generally the people that play games? They usually have a graphics card. If you are targeting people that usually don't play games than that's what you'll get... no one. Make any sense? Otherwise, maybe best to stick to web games perhaps.

---

Not entirely accurate from what I've seen. Unfortunately you can't depend on games all having a powerful graphics card. TGEA (formerly TSE) is designed to have very nice fallbacks for this situation. Unfortunately the majority of people don't have more than their integrated video cards. So if you plan to sell a game to just a select small percentage of hardcore PC gamers that have powerful video cards then you are good to go, though often the majority of your sales come from those without the additional equipment.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Langley:
Not entirely accurate from what I've seen. Unfortunately you can't depend on games all having a powerful graphics card. TGEA (formerly TSE) is designed to have very nice fallbacks for this situation. Unfortunately the majority of people don't have more than their integrated video cards. So if you plan to sell a game to just a select small percentage of hardcore PC gamers that have powerful video cards then you are good to go, though often the majority of your sales come from those without the additional equipment.

---

As for TGE, yes it’s outdated. It’s fine for games that have been going for years, but how is it going to be faring a few years down the road? It just doesn’t sound like a good plan to start developing a large game with it now that will take a year or two to finish development and then run for a few years after that with it’s already outdated rendering engine. I really think it’s best to release something that is more current with video game graphics and then attract players that may spend years playing the game. If you target old cheesy graphics than you will be getting people mostly looking for a quick discount game that they can try and toss after a few months. Gamers play games, they buy graphic cards and they buy games which supports the developers, it’s a fairly safe target group to go after.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited November 30, 2006).]

quote:

---

I think that anyone that plays 3D games probably has at least something like that or is willing to pay $30 to be able to play games

---

It's not that they aren't willing to spend $30, it's that the majority of gamers out there don't install their own hardware. Most of them buy a pre-packaged computer from the store and never touch it. There are plenty who do, but in percentage to those who don't it's very miniscule. Thats why you have fallbacks, so you can support both the high end and the low end. Why would you ever want to go for the smaller percentage of userbase rather than the larger?

quote:

---

As for TSE, yes it’s outdated.

---

It's outdated? How can it be outdated while it's still in development and still being updated with next gen tech?

Do you know the features TSE has and supports? Check out the features:

http://www.garagegames.com/products/28/

Definately shader support as you are saying, thats becoming standard, nothing special about that. It also has a limitless terrain system with terrain paging developed to be highly efficient. Many other features as well. There is even a version of it that is fully Xbox 360 compatabile fully utilizing the harware on the Xbox 360... hardly outdated.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

The gaming industry is a booming industry, larger than the movie industry. Computer games take a large percentage of those sales and the big sellers are the latest games that require a PC that is newer than three years old. I don't see a small market at all, I see gamers buying games and non-gamers that don't have any hardware because they don't play games, not buying games. If you are going to target the odd crowd than that's what you'll get, “gamers” that don't play games. At least that's as far as 3D games are concerned, you can always make a tetras clone as a web browser game and do ok I suppose.

Oh as for Torque, I was not referring to the shader engine but the older game engine. I've mentioned in other threads that the shader engine is not bad. I just wouldn't bother with the older TGE... though I have no plans to mess with any of the Torque engines, I already have a platform I'm working with.

quote:

---

Gamers are incapable of putting in video game cards?

---

This is how arguments get started based on nothing. I never said that. This is what I said:

quote:

---

It's not that they aren't willing to spend $30, it's that the majority of gamers out there don't install their own hardware.

---

A huge difference in what you claimed I said and what I actually said.

Just because I say that gamers don't typically install their own hardware doesn't mean I'm saying they can't.

The majority of gamers don't install their hardware, sure there are plenty that do, they are also the louder ones usually, though there is more user base out there that don't have powerful hardware.

Also there's a differnce between a video card handling shaders and handling a lot of shaders while handling high poly meshes and high res textures.

Lets take your case for example... Radeon 9500. I have a computer that uses a 9500. If I try to run any 'current gen' (note: not even next gen) games on it I have to turn down most of the settings and run it at a lower resolution. In fact even on my newer computer I can't run current gen at near to high settings. I currently (at home at least) have what most typical gamers would have. Now this doesn't mean I can't play the current games. It just means the games were designed with fallbacks well. This is something most, if not all, game engines take into factor. Why do you think games have all those detail settings (as well as many of them these days having much more in-depth performance and visual quality options). Someone with a Radeon 9500 can run shaders sure but not many and not too many polys.

quote:

---

Oh as for Torque, I was not referring to the shader engine but the older game engine. I've mentioned in other threads that the shader engine is not bad. I just wouldn't bother with the older TGE... though I have no plans to mess with any of the Torque engines, I already have a platform I'm working with.

---

That I can understand; however, you did say:

quote:

---

As for TSE, yes it’s outdated.

---

TSE = Torque Shader Engine

So I was simply responding to your own words.

Also, have you every actually used Torque. Any of the engines. The only reason I ask is you seem to speak about it as if you are sure of what you say. Though some things you have said are not correct (or even close), like when it came down to the licensing. I mean no offense, but in all honesty if you don't have personal experience or knowledge of something it's best not to make assumptions based on second, third (etc) hand information. Just like I haven't said anything about Ogre in detail since I really don't know it that well so I would be blustering false information if I did.

When criticizing an engine (like you have), or any tech for that matter, you really should know what your talking about before you do so. Not saying you don't know about engines in general, but obviously you don't know much (beyond the basic features) about Torque.

We've hijacked this thread enough though. If you wish to carry on this conversation feel free to PM me or e-mail me.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

The best part was seeing some guy arguing about Torque with the Lead Documentation Engineer at GarageGames (who I can only presume has a rather 'current' knowledge of Torque :P)... lol...

------------------
www.auran.com

It SAID it was a typo, Here I'll correct it instead of it being drug on any further. And yes I have Torque, I have the demo of it installed in fact. I mean come on, I said it was a mistake and that I meant TGE, why are you being a punk about it and dissing me? Go away and dis on someone else now :P grrrrrrr

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited November 30, 2006).]

I haven't seen commercial games that would backup TGE/TSE advertising phrases. It seems to me that TGE has been producing mainly arcades, that's not what the engine is being advertised for. Even Ogre which is a free engine scores better in terms of quality games IMO.

examples of commercial games using Ogre:

http://www.ogre3d.org/index.php?set_albumName=album28&option=com_gall ery&Itemid=55&include=view_album.php

http://www.ogre3d.org/index.php?set_albumName=album45&option=com_gall ery&Itemid=55&include=view_album.php

http://www.chridmeister.co.uk/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=2

Calin

------------------

My projects page:
http://calinnegru.googlepages.com/projects

'As there are plants which will flourish only in mountain soil, so it appears that Mercy will flower only when it grows in the crannies of the rock of Justice; transplanted to the marshlands of mere Humanitarianism, it becomes a man-eating weed, all the more dangerous because it is still called by the same name as the mountain variety.'
The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment
by C. S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by fearless (edited November 30, 2006).]

For one I'd suggest taking a step back and objectively reading through my post again. I very clearly have stated I'm am not trying to offend you. You are taking this far too personal which is why I meant to take this to e-mail or PM. Since others are posting now I am going to continue posting since I beleive people deserve to hear some counter information and then they can do their own research to develop their own thoughts.

quote:

---

You are on me because I said the game I am working will require shader 2 support, I don't have a problem with that at all and there is nothing that will convince me otherwise especially considering that release isn't until 2008 and those Redeon 9500's will probably be selling for $5 a stack! :P

---

No I am not "on you" because of that. I am not "on you" at all. If you pose an argument for your position then you better be prepared for an argument against your position. It's respectful to hear out the adverse argument and respond well mannered. I would expect it even more on this forum (where as other game dev forums I'm not surprised). You made some statements about your choices but you made them generalized and towards HanClinto and me both as an argument for not using TGE. So if you make that argument you should be prepared to receive the counter-argument in a respecful manner.

quote:

---

It SAID it was a typo, Here I'll correct it instead of it being drug on any further. And yes I have Torque, I have the demo of it installed in fact. I mean come on, I said it was a mistake and that I meant TGE, why are you being a punk about it and dissing me? Go away and dis on someone else now :P grrrrrrr

---

I don't consider myself being a "punk" or "dissing" you. It was a professional suggestion that you responded to very unprofessionally.

Also when I mention you not knowing much about Torque I wasn't talking about you saying "TSE" instead of "TGE". I was referring to your earlier conversation with HanClinto in which he corrected you on Torque licensing. Torque licensing has never been the way you were claiming it was and it has been one of the most broadcasted aspects of Torque. This causes me to doubt how much you truly know about Torque.

Please don't take this personal, you made statements I thought were false so I made counter-statements. As simple as that. This is how dicussions go. If you aren't prepared to handle a counter-statement then you shouldn't make a statement. Again no offense and definately nothing personal.

@fearless:

Very respectfully put... however I would have to disagree with you to a limited extent.

quote:

---

I haven't seen commercial games that would backup TGE/TSE advertising phrases.

---

For one would you tell me the advertising phrases. Not meant as a challenge just honest curiosity what you think it isn't living up to.

Torque was created based off of the engine that made Tribes and Tribes 2 by Dynamix. The founders of GarageGames were some of the leaders of Dynamix. Tribes and Tribes 2 is definately not an arcade style game. In fact TGE itself without modification is best suited to make an FPS (like Tribes) which I still think is much different than an arcade style game... but here are some games done in TGE (note not TSE which has shaders, terrain paging, etc... just TGE):

Wilfelife Tycon: venture Africa
http://www.garagegames.com/products/79/

This is a sim game that you can pick up at Wal-Mart and Best Buy (or off of our site).

Dark Horizons: Lore
http://www.garagegames.com/products/29/

This is a Mech First/Third person shooter (might just be third been a while). This is fast paced action similar to Tribues but with mechs as well as multiple other aspects

Minions of Mirth
http://www.prairiegames.com/

An MMO done in Torque... fully mod-able as well as capable of hosting your own server! Some great work done on this game

Of course Tribes and Tribes 2 as well.

There are various people using TGE, TSE, and TGB commercially as well. Including our release of Marble Blast Ultra on the Xbox 360.

Then Torque also has TorqueX, which is our XNA based engine. We are adding the ability to export from TGB's Level Builder to XNA. Microsoft promotes our XNA demos at multiple sessions (like GameFest and the Fall Event).

Keep in mind Ogre is just a rendering engine as well and not a game engine.

Also I'm not trying to say Torque is better than anything else. For one "better" is a relative term to what you are talking about. Graphics, Efficiency, Compatiblity, Price, Time Investment, Learning Curve, Support, etc... In fact if anything I'd say you can make a game with any engine (that gives you the source), or no engine, if you are dedicated enough. Though I did feel that HanClinto was making some great corrections and that people deserved to know the truth about Torque.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Langley: I don't consider myself being a "punk" or "dissing" you. It was a professional suggestion that you responded to very unprofessionally.
Also when I mention you not knowing much about Torque I wasn't talking about you saying "TSE" instead of "TGE". I was referring to your earlier conversation with HanClinto in which he corrected you on Torque licensing. Torque licensing has never been the way you were claiming it was and it has been one of the most broadcasted aspects of Torque. This causes me to doubt how much you truly know about Torque.

---

Well you are, you are just dragging that point on and on and on now. I didn't mean TSE, I meant TGE and I already changed it, is that all right with you or not?? Obviously not or you would have moved on from it. How are you being a punk? You fired back a quote “That I can understand; however, you did say: “ which basically you are saying that even though I said I made a mistake you are not going to let it go because you have your fangs dug into it and are going to throttle it for all it's worth.

I say yes I have checked out Torque and you fire back that I missed some lousy licensing agreement so I don't know what I'm talking about. You attempt to discredit me based on a typo and a point that is on the contractual side of Torque. I'm [being] unprofessional? You are [being] an arrogant beast, you should have that checked some time. I say things about Torque (e.g. outdated) and you shoot attacks against me, well I can shoot attacks against you too

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited December 01, 2006).]

------------------

My projects page:
http://calinnegru.googlepages.com/projects

'As there are plants which will flourish only in mountain soil, so it appears that Mercy will flower only when it grows in the crannies of the rock of Justice; transplanted to the marshlands of mere Humanitarianism, it becomes a man-eating weed, all the more dangerous because it is still called by the same name as the mountain variety.'
The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment
by C. S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by fearless (edited December 01, 2006).]

Anyway: http://larknews.com/june_2004/secondary.php?page=1

I just had to laugh.

[This message has been edited by Lazarus (edited December 01, 2006).]

mattl (AT) garagegames (DOT) com

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

http://www.jonpeddie.com/about/press/MarketWatch_Q206.shtml

I hope David doesn't mind me discussing this but that issue will likely hold problems for Axys. It's primary retail presence is in Christian bookstores. There is a good chance that anyone buying a game there is a casual gamer. Problem is, Axys gives a BSOD with Intel integrated (I know because I tried). Unfortunately there isn't much David can do about it since it's a problem with 3DGameStudio (at least I assume it is).

Secondly, a game may not necessarily reflect the capabilities of an engine. The art assets and the team using the engine will make the biggest impact. Just because an engine supports a feature doesn't mean that a team will have the resources to use it (you try making high quality normal maps for all your assets). Trust me, I can make a very ugly looking scene for EW: Nightmares if I wanted to.

Now if I were targeting hardcore gamers who likely upgrade their computers often these would be some good statistics to go by:

http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html

Same goes for consoles. I might say "Oh, the PS2 is old and the graphics comparably cruddy" but look at its established user base:

http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=11067

The PS2 is STILL far outselling all other consoles. To ignore the PS2 would then be foolish for a game targeting a multi-platform console release.

Oh, and except for MMO's the PC game market has been on the decline despite the overall growth of the industry. The major growth has all been in the console and mobile market. This greatly affects the Christian game industry since we're mostly stuck with doing PC games since we can't afford the costs associated with console development nor will publishers support our efforts to get into consoles.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited December 01, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Langley:
I will not continue with this. You obviuosly not going to be level headed and read my posts objectively. I expected much more from someone named "Faith Warrior". This has become a personal battle for you and never once has become so for me. Please take this to e-mail if you wish to continue the logistics of this conversation, no reason to continue this in public unless you are just trying to get attention. My e-mail is:

mattl (AT) garagegames (DOT) com

---

@Faith Warrior:
I refuse to get into a personal battle on a public forum. If you wish to continue our discussion I have PMed you on these boards. Either way this is my last response to you on this issue. If you change your posts back to the topic (of game engines) and cease your personal accusations/attacks I will gladly and respectfully reply.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Because, Matt has been level-headed and presented his arguement fairly. He hasn't said anything really demeaning, he's simple expecting you to act like a normal adult, to do some rational conversation and constructive "argueing."

Really, he's pointing out his reasons for everything, and you are coming back swinging. Please read what you type before you click post, and then decide if you want to say it, and if you want everyone to read what you posted.

Maybe talk a walk, then come back and see if you still feel so upset.

------------------
To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Langley:
@Gump:
Thanks for posting the links, lots of good research data out there.

@Faith Warrior:
I refuse to get into a personal battle on a public forum. If you wish to continue our discussion I have PMed you on these boards. Either way this is my last response to you on this issue. If you change your posts back to the topic (of game engines) and cease your personal accusations/attacks I will gladly and respectfully reply.

---

My previous post was a personal attack against you? You wrongly criticize my forum name and I cry foul but say nothing personal back except why are you friggin doing it and that was a personal attack? Dude, you really need to step back and review this thread, are you under some demonic delusion, or something?

I completely agree with the lower common denominator. The casual gamer is a currently rapidly growing market. This is why there are now so many sites with web games and companies like WildTangent. Check out most new computers...Intel integrated graphics chip and a BUNCH of demo games.

At Target, they even had several shelves focused on games for girls. Several pony games, vet games, cute cats and dogs software, and many more. These aren't bleeding edge games, but they are in 3D. My point being, it's not only hard core gamers who require 3D cards. The need for hardware 3D has permeated to everyone. Even some of the Nickelodeon web games (my 5 and 7 year old play) are now in 3D and I'm sure there are many others.

The Sims, I believe, was a pivotal release in the casual gamer field. I'm sure this game scales extremely well to best meet the needs of all levels of video cards. I'm totally taking a guess at that, having never played it. Also, wasn't the original Half-Life known for its terrific scaling?

On the other hand, take Roller Coaster Tycoon 3. It is horribly slow at night time, even on high-end graphics cards. I've played it on an integrated Intel 950 and was getting maybe 2 FPS during the night scenes. I basically fast forward the time until morning. Even during the day, it can get a bit choppy riding the coasters. This is probably the biggest complaint on the forums. But...it is a fun game.

All to say, scaling is very important.