We are in dire need of quality coders, 3dmodelers, writers, artists and religious history experts to help us realize heartseed. ( see signature)

If you are able please dont be shy and feel free to inquire at: irc.freenode.net at #heartseed or ##christian

thanks!
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

[This message has been edited by neighborlee (edited March 17, 2006).]

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited March 17, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by lava:
I looked on the site, it said non-profit, would the people working for you be paid or would they be volunteer?

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you got it right..it is non profit but that does not mean no profit for work done..'atm' I have no money to pay anyone so its work for god at this point..BUT as funds come in from fund drives, then yes our plan is to pay for work done for those that want it.

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

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quote:

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HeartSeed is a Non-Profit Organization dedicated to producing high quality video game content suitable for all ages , while concentrating on puzzle solving and in-depth story lines. Our First Title will enlist philosophies from many different cultures,- all which stand as a beacon of light for millions of people worldwide. We will have a full compliment of content from a complete line of world religions to form the basis of the games commitment to show the 'unity' of thought regardless of religious conviction,- which unites us all as a people. This Unity will be including wisdom from other cultures such as Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Judaism and others, - because throughout all of them can be found a common thread of inner enlightenment and love to all things both animal and human - for which Jesus the Son Of God ministered to in all his teachings, as did similarly the other great teachers/prophets of Earths time. It is this common thread amoung most all religions of the world that will be drawn upon as a framework as the player collects clues ( in vast worlds rendered beautifully and used in a state of the art Game Engine ), interacts with game players/NPC's, levels up or down ( RPG point system to engage player but based on virtues ) based on decisions made in the game, and puzzle components collected during the game; all in the process of solving quests leading to the climactic sequences.
The Game will implement a set of values in the style of current popular games but not geared toward necessary use of battle for advancement. Our final product which will be 'commercial quality' will not only be donated to many charitable causes but available for retail purchase far below normal retail price for most current games in accordance with established laws for non-profit organizations.

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just to fill in any blanks

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

Also, I have one question about what reads in the about page:

quote:

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Our First Title will enlist philosophies from many different cultures,- all which stand as a beacon of light for millions of people worldwide. We will have a full compliment of content from a complete line of world religions to form the basis of the games commitment to show the 'unity' of thought regardless of religious conviction,- which unites us all as a people. This Unity will be including wisdom from other cultures such as Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Judaism and others, - because throughout all of them can be found a common thread of inner enlightenment and love to all things both animal and human - for which Jesus the Son Of God ministered to in all his teachings, as did similarly the other great teachers/prophets of Earths time.

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You do know however that Jesus is the only way to Father who is in Heaven, right? I know that God is the light of men, so I dont see problem with this aproach - if it's done right of course, according to God's will.
Just making sure.

In Christ,
Jari.

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Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

[This message has been edited by buddboy (edited March 19, 2006).]

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yeah, im a little crazy

Blessed are those who suffer for doing what is right.
The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.-Matthew 5:10

PM ME YOUR DESCRIPTION OF ME! ILL PUT IT HERE!

Here's all the comments!

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

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"But it is God who judges: He brings one down, he exalts another." - Psalm 75:7

Startup Christian Games Company Producing Mobile/PC Games/Tools

[This message has been edited by dartsman (edited March 29, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by lava:
how many people are on your team total, so far?

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three so far by I'm by far the most active.

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

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Originally posted by jari:
Hi,
this sounds like an interesting project but there is very little info about the game in your site. I'm unsure does this game have combat and how is the player controlled and is it 1st/3rd person or more like isometric?

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quote:

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Also, I have one question about what reads in the about page:
You do know however that Jesus is the only way to Father who is in Heaven, right? I know that God is the light of men, so I dont see problem with this aproach - if it's done right of course, according to God's will.
Just making sure.
In Christ,
Jari.

---

Jesus is the light of the world for obvious reasons ( and is the basis of MY religion as well yes), but that does not preclude that everyone in the world WILL bow before those principles , as many 'cling' to the teachings of their own ( no fault of their own ), given by their own prophets/teachers ( mohammed it shoulds be known said he was spreading the teachings of jesus to his people given by supposedly gabriel the angel ).

We must remember that even jesus welcomed the 'pagans' so that is basically what I am doing as well..trying to unite via common threads inherant in most religions...and who knows in the end maybe someday we will have global unification under one religion...got there by a world which stood together under a banner of true righteousness.

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

[This message has been edited by kiwee (edited March 20, 2006).]

In Christ,
Jari.

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Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

Neighborlee,
I agree, people should be drawn in to Jesus from every background, so it's important to understand those backgrounds and to use the similiar ideas found in them to point toward the truth of the anti-religion, Jesus Christ.

The trouble is, when you start getting into this one-world-religion thing, it becomes just that, religion. If you believe these things, do these things, say these things, you're okay. And of course this has to be taken down to the greatest common denominators, which you will find are scarce. This is really the religion everyone wants, whether they call themselves Christian or whatever. Bottom line is, I can do it myself. I'll get righteous, then I'll join all the good people and dance before God wholly clean. But it's not real, is not obtainable, depends on self-delusion and not a real change of heart, and ends in dispair.

So if you do this right, you can show why religion is not the answer.

quote:

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Originally posted by dartsman:
To me it doesn't sound quiet so sound More info on what the companies view of God would also help.

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god is 'I am that I am'..that speaks for itself

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

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Originally posted by buddboy:
lol i would love to help, but i can't go on IRC... how else would i contact/inquire? lol.. i can do graphics and writing...
[edit] d00d!! UR FROM SEATTLE? LOL... AWESOME...i go there like every year... lol... that's right near tacoma (which you probably know lol) which is where i was born... lol..

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email is fine..

info@heartseed.org

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

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Originally posted by Realm Master:
Quality coders? well... not it! lol. Sorry, not alot you could do with a B3d programming teenager! haha. But there should be some people more than willing (and older and more experienced) to help you!

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np..;-))

have a good one
cheers

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

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but that does not preclude that everyone in the world WILL bow before those principles , as many 'cling' to the teachings of their own ( no fault of their own ), given by their own prophets/teachers ( mohammed it shoulds be known said he was spreading the teachings of jesus to his people given by supposedly gabriel the angel ).

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BTW, Mohammad's teachings do not line up with what Jesus taught. Scratch any religion or worldview and beneath its surface you see how incompatible it is with Jesus.

Fact is, *everyone* will, one day, bow before Jesus the King, whether they like it or not (Phil 2:11). (We will not, on the other hand, bow before Allah, Buddha, Lao Tze, Shiva, Zeus, Thor, or anyone else)

Are there commonalities among various religions and Christianity? Certainly! Even among Muslim scholars and some branches of Hinduism there are free will/predestination debates, for example. Jesus is not even the only one who is supposed to have been a divine being embodied in earthly form (e.g., the Hindu god Vishnu is believed to have had ten avatars, aka incarnations). Many religions have a similar code of ethics. However, you are not going to get a person to submit to Jesus because he has similarities with their own gods, or because Jesus' teachings are similar. Not at all - the important thing for a person to acknowledge is that Jesus is fundamentally different from other gods, and not just different, but true, unlike any other, and only he has the power to take away the corruption and death that permeates our being. Take away this truth, and we might as well all go become Buddhists.

As Jesus said to the Sadducees: ...you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God...you are badly mistaken!

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it's pronounced "tonics"

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

quote:

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Originally posted by buddboy:
um... i just realized the whole thing you're saying with the all religions tied together... i'm not so sure i really want to do it lol... i mean, i guess i should have (like arch said) found out more before i signed up lol... i'll have to really think about it but i don't agree with the whole muslims and us worship the same god...

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I think its all just semantics...has anyone really ever given thought to this whole 'allah/god' thing ?...muslims believe in a one creator universe..though we use different terminology for them why must that preclude that they are somehow different

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

the natures are different, one has a son named Jesus, another doesn't. etc etc etc.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

no offense...

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yeah, im a little crazy

Blessed are those who suffer for doing what is right.
The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.-Matthew 5:10

PM ME YOUR DESCRIPTION OF ME! ILL PUT IT HERE!

Here's all the comments!

[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited March 21, 2006).]

1) They dont have Father, just god and that's because they dont know God (Mat 11:27).
2) Jesus is only a prophet to them, who died like every one else (Rom 10:9).
3) Muslim view of heaven is carnal, they believe they will get many virgin wifes, which is not the way Heaven is (Mat 22:30).

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; - 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

In Christ,
Jari.

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Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

While the Bible says that as descendants of Adam, all are born with a sinful nature (Psalm 51:5; Romans 3:23), the Muslim view is that man is born innocent.1 The Koran refers to sin as ‘earned’ (4:111, 6:120, 24:11).

The Koran denies that God is Triune (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).2 (Muslims do not address God as ‘Father’, believing that no man can be a ‘son’ of God.) ‘… and the Christians call Christ the Son of Allah. … Allah’s curse be on them: How they are deluded away from the Truth!’ (9:30–31).

While the Bible says that it is by grace that we are saved through faith alone, ‘not by works lest any man should boast’ (Ephesians 2:8–9), the Koran (23:102–103) tells a very different story: ‘Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy, —they will attain salvation: But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls; in Hell will they abide.’

While the Bible calls Christians to ‘go and make disciples of all nations …’ (Matt. 28:19), this is to be done ‘with gentleness and respect’ (1 Peter 3:15)—Christians do not use the weapons of the world to preach the Gospel (2 Corinthians 10:3–5). But for Muslims, a very different approach is prescribed in the Koran. E.g. ‘… then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them …’ (9:5). And, ‘… I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: Smite ye above their necks and smite all their fingertips off them.’ (8:12)

While the Bible instructs a husband never to be harsh with his wife and to sacrificially love her ‘as Christ loved the church’, and not to deprive one another (1 Corinthians 7:5; Ephesians 5:25; Colossians 3:19); the Koran (4:34) says: ‘As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them … .’

The Bible says that God is love (1 John 4:8, 16). The Koran does not.

There's some pretty obvious reasons for believing that the Koran was written referencing the Qumran (Jewish OT), though the Islam claim is that it's the other way around. So similarities aren't coincidence. But it's the differences that make the difference. Without the differences which make the Christian truth claim distinct, all you are left with is "religion", all of the things that people have always desired in their darkened hearts.

Even leaving out all of the others, this one alone sums it up: ‘Then those whose balance (of good deeds) is heavy, —they will attain salvation: But those whose balance is light, will be those who have lost their souls; in Hell will they abide.’

That pretty much puts into words the desire people have, and this is an absolute commonality in people.

I'll even put something interesting into this discussion, which is the NT's mention of people apart from the "Law" doing that which is required by the Law. What is required by the Law? Doing every last thing that is right. Is this obtainable? No. So how is this good standing in sight of the Law obtainable? It is by faith alone. Bottom line, every person needs to recognize their true nature and inability to meet what is required. I believe people can find God apart from knowledge of the Gospel, because of this and other passages. But their reaction to the message of the Gospel when they come to it is a reflection of the state of the heart. As Jesus stated, those who love the father love the son. I believe this is problem numero-uno for people with the Gospel. Salvation does not come from yourself. So Jesus has truly become "a stone that makes men stumble and a rock that makes men fall".

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

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Originally posted by klumsy:
I'm glad to see some spiritual dicernment going on here. I personally would advise against being involved in neighbourlee's project, but it would be good to chat with him about the foundations and essense of christianity, find out what are the biggest differences between his worldview and a biblical worldview, and then sow seeds of correct doctrine with some solid scriptures.

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I've read all your replies , and I take from it that likely most of you are in your teens, so I can't imagine your help will amount to anything useful, desireable or enlightening ( mostly the bull comments ). I need adults ,- with open minds willing to bridge differences by stating commonalities, and if you can't handle that, then you are NO CHRISTIANS and barely humans. if you really think islam is that bad fine but do better research first ( you dont know any decent muslims do you! ) . The five pillars of islam should be one of your first clues something is amiss with quoting various pieces of koran. The christian faith also has a few marrs in it if one looks at the old testament so lets not be so pious. One should also remember that mohammed said he was only helping his people by being a messanger of the teachings of jesus, so by repelling the islam you repell christianity. OOPS ;-))

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

BTW, it's Q'uran, not Koran... lol... just HAD to point that out, i'm picky like that...

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

I'm sick of people tearing neighborlee up. Have some class guys.

About the spelling of Koran, there are many words that have various spellings when translated to english. Really, anything translated from one language to another is based on phonetics.

About "compromising", neighborlee seems to be stating *not* that we should compromise, but that there is alot in common to begin with. Many would speculate that Allah=God, and the Manitu of some native american tribes also =God. About the "Messenger from Jesus" thing, all Christians spreading the Gospel are messengers for Jesus. And before we get all high and mighty, our "Christian" predecessors lead the Crusades. Muslims arent the only ones with holy war mentioned. And before anybody says "well the catholics were the ones who staged the Crusades", remember the OT. Whether you believe that Islam is legit or not, you can't deny the commonalities in the various religions.

One last point, (to everybody who said this)..

People, please stop saying "Jesus is the only one who is still alive. Buddha, Muhammed, and all the others are dead!". To be fair, Buddha did not claim to be immortal, he didnt claim he was God, he didnt claim anything along those lines. He mearly stated that he was enlightened (which he was). Same with many others. So basically the whole "Jesus is the only one who is the Son of God, and the only one still alive" argument holds no water.

@neighborlee, while you were right about CCN being mostly teens, and that we were wrong in saying your ideas were bull, please don't think nobody here has technical skills. Immaturity and narrow mindedness dont necessarily equate to computer-illiteracy.

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"I bleed black tears"

Will the emo kids be my friends now?

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it's pronounced "tonics"

quote:

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open minds willing to bridge differences by stating commonalities

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sounds like a compromise to me... crazy, maybe you should be careful what you say, too... i didn't go calling anyone immature or narrow-minded... have class? we're not being unclassy, i was very kind in that statement, ok, we shouldn't have said they were bull, i'll admit that... whatever about the Q'uran's spelling lol... good point about the Manitu thing... how were the crusades wrong? they were a war to recapture the Holy Land from the Turks... i don't see anything bad about that, other than that after we went in, that altar thing was smashed and the city razed.... lol, that sounded lame didn't it? i guess what i'm saying is, christians aren't perfect, nobody is, but we shouldn't be saying that Islam is just as right as Christianity only because they're similar... i'll admit there is similarities, but where is that going to get us? it has no point, it's almost like saying Islam is correct and we should all become Muslims.. i just don't think it's right to be putting Islam up on a pedestal like you're trying to do...

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

and before u get upset because i called you (indirectly) narrow minded and immature, notice that in the same breath i was defending your knowledge of computers.

If it had been everybody ganging up on christianity, i would still be saying the same thing. I prefer to take one of two roles in an argument- 1)devil's advocate 2)mostly unbiased ref.

EDIT: concerning the crusades, the whole "reclaiming the Holy Land" thing was basically propaganda. The chruch was corrupt at the time (by the way, is it done being corrupt yet? notify me when it is.), and "holy wars" = conquest = money& power. This is on the higher level of course, as most people of the time actually believed it was about God and sacred land. One last note on that, it's Muslim holy land too.

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"I bleed black tears"

Will the emo kids be my friends now?

[This message has been edited by crazyishone (edited March 23, 2006).]

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

[This message has been edited by buddboy (edited March 23, 2006).]

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"I bleed black tears"

Will the emo kids be my friends now?

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

What can Christians learn from this? I think that it is important for Christians to come to grips with our own violence, and to see in what ways it is similar to and different from Islamic violence; to judge when it was justified, and admit when it was not. If you are talking to a Muslim, they could easily point out the crusades, or, more recently, the nuclear bombs, and ask why we're picking on them about their violence. I am not against all violence, nor do I think that that is a reasonable position. Justice is good. Vengeance is not. The Bible tells us what justice is; to do or desire more than that is vengeful. Part of the problem with Islam is that they do not have the Bible's understanding of justice, and we hear on the news how one group sets off another, and the offended group hits back even harder, and it escalates back and forth, over and over throughout history.

Whew. Another long post. I didn't mean to ramble so long. Maybe more later....

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it's pronounced "tonics"

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

quote:

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Originally posted by crazyishone:
buddboy, be careful what you say.

I'm sick of people tearing neighborlee up. Have some class guys.

About the spelling of Koran, there are many words that have various spellings when translated to english. Really, anything translated from one language to another is based on phonetics.

About "compromising", neighborlee seems to be stating *not* that we should compromise, but that there is alot in common to begin with. Many would speculate that Allah=God, and the Manitu of some native american tribes also =God. About the "Messenger from Jesus" thing, all Christians spreading the Gospel are messengers for Jesus. And before we get all high and mighty, our "Christian" predecessors lead the Crusades. Muslims arent the only ones with holy war mentioned. And before anybody says "well the catholics were the ones who staged the Crusades", remember the OT. Whether you believe that Islam is legit or not, you can't deny the commonalities in the various religions.

One last point, (to everybody who said this)..

People, please stop saying "Jesus is the only one who is still alive. Buddha, Muhammed, and all the others are dead!". To be fair, Buddha did not claim to be immortal, he didnt claim he was God, he didnt claim anything along those lines. He mearly stated that he was enlightened (which he was). Same with many others. So basically the whole "Jesus is the only one who is the Son of God, and the only one still alive" argument holds no water.

@neighborlee, while you were right about CCN being mostly teens, and that we were wrong in saying your ideas were bull, please don't think nobody here has technical skills. Immaturity and narrow mindedness dont necessarily equate to computer-illiteracy.

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wow that was a very reasoned and highly considerate reply...I may have been a bit hasty in thinking there was no 'help' to be had here..

I know the world has much to offer each other, and when I see attiutdes like i've seen here it does make it difficult sometimes to find enough in common to imagine getting help of any seriousness, but I can see that logic was flawed at least when it comes to you.

Yes, tech skills can come from many sources , I just might find it rough to work with someone whose views aren't on the same page as my own, but I will consider it ;-)

so...even if we 'disagree' on the core commanlity ( or lack thereof) IF anyone is still interested , I/we could really use alot of help in bringing this fantastic game forward,,

please reply here or come to
irc.freenode.net
#heartseed or #religion or #neighbors or #blender or #delta3d or #openscenegraph or even #lemmings

you can find me any of those places, and I am the original OP in most of them.

..regardless of our differences I'm willing to try to work with any of you that have the skills needed to push our game into reality.

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

[This message has been edited by neighborlee (edited March 27, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by tonnyx:
Howdy, neighbor--
I am grieved that your understanding of Christianity is so skewed, not to mention your understanding of Islam. I have known a number of Muslims, very kind and friendly Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, atheists, Jews...that's all I can think of right now. Great people; some of them are nicer than some Christians I know. Many of them are very devout and generous people. This makes me grieve for them all the more and hope for them to have the knowledge of the true and living God; their good works will not save them from death. Since I've moved to where I am now, I have lost contact with them, but growing up, and in school, I had more non-Christian friends & neighbors than Christian. I am stating all this so you don't assume that I am just some holy-roller bigot who's never been outside my little Christian enclave.
But tell me this: if the point of Christianity is to find its commonalities and live in peace with those of other religions, why preach the so-called gospel at all? Paul, having toured the city of Athens and seeing their worship practices, said, "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD."
Here, he is stating that he carefully examined their religion. I think that Christians can follow Paul's example in *carefully examining* other religions. One thing I appreciate about his message is that he does this, and he uses their own non-Christian literature to help them to see what he is saying: "'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'"
However, he does not stop there. Neighborlee, it sounds like you are proposing that we stop there with our message. If Paul had done so, he would not have fulfilled his duty. Paul goes on (this is Acts 17, btw), *not* to simply say let's all get along because we actually all serve the same god. No. Here is what he does say: "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead." He calls people to recognize and repent of their sin, and to acknowledge Jesus, who rose from the dead, as Lord. If Paul's message to people is not also our message, then indeed we are not Christians.
Some people scoffed. Others wanted to hear more. We will not make everyone happy. Some people will always and forever hate Jesus. No amount of clever marketing or soft-pedalling the work of Jesus will keep that from happening. The church becomes diseased and ineffective when it forgets this fact.

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what exactly do you find 'skewed' ? ;-)

that I know that some christians find favor with only certain passages of the bible in order to gain acceptance of just their POV ? ( some muslims do similar things btw ) ;-)

The point being that there are great commonalities amoungst religions , and we would do well to point them out..remember even Jesus accepted the pagans he said to worship with them, and Im doing similar things if you think about it. Its all about brining the world together to act as one symaptethic and kind 'whole' which will lead to world peace for everyone at some future point.

I will reiterate and say if anyone is interested to help,,please just send an email to me or come online

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

quote:

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Originally posted by kiwee:
regardless of what you believe, how are you going to make that into a game anyway???

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You might elaborate , therefore giving me the ability to actually respond.

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

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Originally posted by neighborlee:

The point being that there are great commonalities amoungst religions , and we would do well to point them out..remember even Jesus accepted the pagans he said to worship with them, and Im doing similar things if you think about it. Its all about brining the world together to act as one symaptethic and kind 'whole' which will lead to world peace for everyone at some future point.

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I think what you need to understand is that the general consensus among Christians which is supported by numerous scriptures is that Jesus is the _only_ true path to God and that other religions are false and do not lead people to God. People on this webpage are (most likely) not going to support a project that argues an opposing world-view.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one may come to the Father, except by me."

"For all the gods of the peoples are idols,
but the Lord made the heavens." (Ps 96:5)

"I hate those who are devoted to worthless idols,
but I trust in the Lord." (Ps 31:6)

As far as world peace is concerned, Jesus said:
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matt 10:34

Also,
"He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, 'KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.'" Rev. 19:13-16

Please, spend some time to read the Bible, especially the words of Christ before you ask any followers of Christ to support a universalist theology.

------------------
+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

[This message has been edited by steveth45 (edited March 27, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by steveth45 (edited March 27, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by steveth45:
I think what you need to understand is that the general consensus among Christians which is supported by numerous scriptures is that Jesus is the _only_ true path to God and that other religions are false and do not lead people to God. People on this webpage are (most likely) not going to support a project that argues an opposing world-view.

---

an opposing world-view now thats intereting...jesus wanted peace and Im offering no less am I ?..what have I said to make you believe I'm somehow teaching virtues against the teachings of jesus ?

quote:

---

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one may come to the Father, except by me."

---

that is not how he meant it. I hold no illusion thinking that Jesus was a right-wing type with narrow visions of attaining enlightenment. Were early religious types unable to find god since Jesus hadn't been born yet ?

quote:

---

"For all the gods of the peoples are idols,
but the Lord made the heavens." (Ps 96:5)

---

meaning its clear that other religions worship idols and not the real thing ..what proof have you ? ;-)

quote:

---

As far as world peace is concerned, Jesus said:
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matt 10:34

---

surely you dont take this literally? ;-)

quote:

---

Also,
"He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, 'KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.'" Rev. 19:13-16

Please, spend some time to read the Bible, especially the words of Christ before you ask any followers of Christ to support a universalist theology.

---

I could ask the same of you ;-)

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

No skill?? I'm no 'pro' or anything but Personally I have a Bachelor in Games Programming, I've had an internship (12 weeks) at Auran ( www.auran.com ) working as a programmer for a project for them. I was lead programmer on my Final Project Game (which we received unofficially 3rd best Unsigned Independent Game at the Australian Game Developers Conference). I have over 4 years of programming experience (mainly C++), but I have knowledge of C#, VB.Net, Java (and J2ME), Assembler (x86) and Pascal. I'm only 19 too. So don't underestimate young people

I can see how you might have just been backed into a corner, but hey, your game Idea sounds like your trying to target the biggest market and please everyone playing it at the same time. If it isn't, if its aim is to target the biggest market, but then show them that Jesus is the son of God, and God is their creator, then hey, please reply back. Otherwise I almost don't see the point why you are posting in this forum.

------------------
"But it is God who judges: He brings one down, he exalts another." - Psalm 76:7

Startup Christian Games Company Producing Mobile/PC Games/Tools

[This message has been edited by dartsman (edited March 28, 2006).]

quote:

---

God created the heavens and the earth

---

I like the way some scriptures you take word for word, but some dont mean what they say. That cracks me up.

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------------------------
Its one of those... Goop... things...
hotmail: Grafitiware@hotmail.com
Yahoo: namerobbedagian

[This message has been edited by goop2 (edited March 28, 2006).]

------------------
"But it is God who judges: He brings one down, he exalts another." - Psalm 76:7

Startup Christian Games Company Producing Mobile/PC Games/Tools

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:

You might elaborate , therefore giving me the ability to actually respond.

cheers
neighborlee

---

How are you going to make your (wrong) believes that all roads lead to God into a game, to advertise your believes?
What will be the plot?
What sort of game will it be?

------------------

quote:

---

Wow, I don't know about anyone else but whenever I read anything posted by neighborlee I always find myself making sure that I am very careful what I take in from him/her, it's like my defences rise whenever I read a message.

---

I hope that wasn't meant as a slam as that wouldn't be terribly christian of you now would it ;-)

quote:

---

No skill?? I'm no 'pro' or anything but Personally I have a Bachelor in Games Programming, I've had an internship (12 weeks) at Auran ( www.auran.com ) working as a programmer for a project for them. I was lead programmer on my Final Project Game (which we received unofficially 3rd best Unsigned Independent Game at the Australian Game Developers Conference). I have over 4 years of programming experience (mainly C++), but I have knowledge of C#, VB.Net, Java (and J2ME), Assembler (x86) and Pascal. I'm only 19 too. So don't underestimate young people

---

SKill is one thing..using it constructively and without prejudice is another

quote:

---

I can see how you might have just been backed into a corner, but hey, your game Idea sounds like your trying to target the biggest market and please everyone playing it at the same time. If it isn't, if its aim is to target the biggest market, but then show them that Jesus is the son of God, and God is their creator, then hey, please reply back. Otherwise I almost don't see the point why you are posting in this forum.

---

Im not trying to please anyone as it were, and I have clearly outlined at the website the 'intent' of the game so Im rather curious about your confusion ? Feel free to send an email or join IRC if you have some actual questions on the topic.

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

---

Originally posted by kiwee:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by neighborlee:
[b]
You might elaborate , therefore giving me the ability to actually respond.

cheers
neighborlee

---

How are you going to make your (wrong) believes that all roads lead to God into a game, to advertise your believes?
What will be the plot?
What sort of game will it be?

[/B][/QUOTE]

(wrong) : on what basis do you make that judgement ?

I dont see how its possible to have a intellectual discussion with that attitude therefore I wont try.

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

You obviously don't have a clue, first you ask to elaborate on a reasonably simple question, then you ignore it completly.

------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:

I hope that wasn't meant as a slam as that wouldn't be terribly christian of you now would it ;-)

---

meant as a slam?? A slam it wasn't. Though I have noticed how you seem to get your own meaning from what is said, be careful with that...

cause I have no idea what you mean with your next statement? (And I don't mean that I don't understand what constructively and without prejudice means either. Clearing that up so you don't reply with a post with a defintion from the dictionary of "constructive")

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:

SKill is one thing..using it constructively and without prejudice is another

---

Bit sad really, again you have read what you wanted to read. What would you consider Constructive? Cause maybe my opinion is different to yours?

Anywho, I'm off to do some Unconstructive work lol

------------------
"But it is God who judges: He brings one down, he exalts another." - Psalm 75:7

Startup Christian Games Company Producing Mobile/PC Games/Tools

[This message has been edited by dartsman (edited March 29, 2006).]

------------------
------------------------
Its one of those... Goop... things...
hotmail: Grafitiware@hotmail.com
Yahoo: namerobbedagian

------------------
In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:

that is not how he meant it. I hold no illusion thinking that Jesus was a right-wing type with narrow visions of attaining enlightenment. Were early religious types unable to find god since Jesus hadn't been born yet ?

---

First of all, God's vision is clear and absolute. How could it be anything else? Calling it right-wing and narrow is odd. Jesus introduced the radical concept to the world that people were created equally. He broke down barriers of racial prejudice, etc. He was absolute and clear but he was hardly right-wing. Secondly, Jesus was the prophesied Messiah, the Holy One spoken of in the Old Testament. In days before Jesus showed up on earth, the Jews lived under the old covenant, making blood offerings that symbolized Jesus' sacrifice. Testament = Covenant. The Old Covenant and the New Covenant. You can learn all about it in the Bible, read up.

referring to
"For all the gods of the peoples are idols,
but the Lord made the heavens." (Ps 96:5)

quote:

---

meaning its clear that other religions worship idols and not the real thing ..what proof have you ? ;-)

---

Proof? The Bible is proof enough. If you don't believe the scriptures and you don't believe Jesus is God, then you have no business pretending to be a Christian.

referring to "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." Matt 10:34

quote:

---

surely you dont take this literally? ;-)

---

Of course not, silly. Not an actual, real, sword that cuts things... but division and separation. If you had taken the time to look up the scripture, you would have read the next verse which explains it: "For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

referring to my statement "Please, spend some time to read the Bible, especially the words of Christ before you ask any followers of Christ to support a universalist theology."

quote:

---

I could ask the same of you ;-)

---

Actually, I'm not asking anyone to support any theology, I'm just asking you to realize that your beliefs are radically different and in conflict with those from mainstream Christianity, the Bible, the teachings of Christ, the Nicene Creed, or the statements of faith that define the core belief of any major Christian church denomination (except Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who call themselves "Christian" but deny the divinity of Jesus).

------------------
+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

[This message has been edited by steveth45 (edited March 28, 2006).]

------------------
------------------------
Its one of those... Goop... things...
hotmail: Grafitiware@hotmail.com
Yahoo: namerobbedagian

[This message has been edited by goop2 (edited March 28, 2006).]

------------------
In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

------------------
"But it is God who judges: He brings one down, he exalts another." - Psalm 75:7

Startup Christian Games Company Producing Mobile/PC Games/Tools

[This message has been edited by dartsman (edited March 29, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by dartsman (edited March 29, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by goop2:
I would go a bit further and say that in the 10 comandments it says not to worship other gods, and not to worship idols. Personaly, thats proof enough for me that god dosent want us worshiping other gods, and idols.

---

Prove that muslims are worshiping a 'other god' and you can make that claim, but until then your just spreadingt malicious propoganda based on ignorance.

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

[This message has been edited by neighborlee (edited March 29, 2006).]

quote:

---

First of all, God's vision is clear and absolute. How could it be anything else? Calling it right-wing and narrow is odd. Jesus introduced the radical concept to the world that people were created equally. He broke down barriers of racial prejudice, etc. He was absolute and clear but he was hardly right-wing. Secondly, Jesus was the prophesied Messiah, the Holy One spoken of in the Old Testament. In days before Jesus showed up on earth, the Jews lived under the old covenant, making blood offerings that symbolized Jesus' sacrifice. Testament = Covenant. The Old Covenant and the New Covenant. You can learn all about it in the Bible, read up.

---

Thats rather arrogant of you to suggest that I 'read up' isn't it ? Does that suggest your knowledge is somewhat more holy and thus divine than mine ?..you would be severely mistaken.

I mentioned 'right-wing' because the pervasive current 'attiude' amoungst such people in this world is both unwarranted and undesireable because jesus clearly said so..so no I dont think I need to read up anywhere.

quote:

---

Proof? The Bible is proof enough. If you don't believe the scriptures and you don't believe Jesus is God, then you have no business pretending to be a Christian.

---

This does absolutely nothing to further your point of view that the 'other religions' worship anything but god. I never said I dont believe any scripture so you should really stop 'spinning' things to try to convince others of your weak arguments. I never said jesus was not god, so I would also appreciate it if you would stop the propoganda by telling lies about me. Maybe you should read the bible again before spreading untruths ?

quote:

---

quote:

surely you dont take this literally? ;-)

Of course not, silly. Not an actual, real, sword that cuts things... but division and separation. If you had taken the time to look up the scripture, you would have read the next verse which explains it: "For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."

---

You are the one that brought this up earlier not me so the reference was more than fair on my part

quote:

---

quote:

I could ask the same of you ;-)
[quote]
Actually, I'm not asking anyone to support any theology, I'm just asking you to realize that your beliefs are radically different and in conflict with those from mainstream Christianity, the Bible, the teachings of Christ, the Nicene Creed, or the statements of faith that define the core belief of any major Christian church denomination (except Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses who call themselves "Christian" but deny the divinity of Jesus).

---

radical huh...in your opinion maybe ;-)

Maybe mainstream christianity needs to get a clue that their beliefs are sometimes 'radical' themselves. THey are always trying to put others down by using the poor bible as their 'sword', so dont go yelling bible purities to me cause I see it for what it is and that aint much ( as in your interpretation of the bible's scritpures, and yes many have tried to paint them with their own brush ). Jesus warned us of 'false prophets' and their forked tongues. You can try and wrap up your radical diatribes in pretty bible scripture used eroneously, but its all just the same at the core; god sees the heart of man so I"d adivse you to consider repenting now ;-)

Jesus teachings do not allow you to act like this.

read up yourself on that one and change your ways before the rapture.

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

[This message has been edited by neighborlee (edited March 29, 2006).]

As a quick note, so far, you've been the one to come across immature, both in execution and in content, this is simply the way your posts have struck me. Accusing others of being narrow-minded, immature, and lacking enough acquantance with the subjects is self-indulgent and hypocritical. A person who makes such claims without being able to answer the other people's questions is guilty of all of these.

The trouble I find with most people who want to argue bizarre theology is that they want to have it all ways. To make their ideas come across half-believable, they must stick to very small sound-bites from Scripture. Then when opposite sound-bites which are stronger are brought up, they claim that they are chosen for their fit with the other person's view. But that doesn't get anywhere. The question is who's view is actually supported by studying the Bible as a whole. When choosing quick references from Scripture, passages should be chosen which succinctly represent the overall teaching of aspects of Scripture. Anything else is taking it out of context.

Case in point: someone points out that the OT says "there is no God" (this has actually been tried). I'll bring up three things. One, the OT also says "The Lord your God is one God". This verse represents the teaching found across the OT, so it's valid as a quick reference. Further, the verse about "there is no God", is actually "a fool says in his heart, 'there is no God'". The final comment would be encouragement toward looking at the whole so you see for yourself that what is being said is accurate.

I believe there are issues which are open to disagreement by honest believers, what you've brought up so far hasn't been in this ballpark. Where does Jesus or anything in the Bible claim we should worship with pagans (unless you simply mean that non-Christians should be allowed to come into the Churches)? Where does it say peace will come through mankind becoming a peaceful entity?

The part you have a partial grasp on is that Christians should not get stuck on symantics when reaching others. The word for God in Arabic is Allah, and I don't see anything wrong in using this word, what I do see a problem with is claiming that everything is semantics. We are not called as Christians to lead people to a generic diety a goodly majority will agree on. We are called to bring them to Jesus. And as Jesus stated, not all will come to him, and even among those who invoke the name not all are true.

My one starting question remains. How do you reconcile the Islamic and non-Christian ideas about salvation with what is clearly taught in the Bible from begining to end?

quote:

---

I believe there are issues which are open to disagreement by honest believers, what you've brought up so far hasn't been in this ballpark. Where does Jesus or anything in the Bible claim we should worship with pagans (unless you simply mean that non-Christians should be allowed to come into the Churches)? Where does it say peace will come through mankind becoming a peaceful entity?

---

I could care absolutely 100% less what your 'credentials' are..they are meaningless to me without being backed up with heart, and for that I've found severely lacking here at times, so dont get on your high horse calling me to task..Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye?.

quote:

---

My one starting question remains. How do you reconcile the Islamic and non-Christian ideas about salvation with what is clearly taught in the Bible from begining to end?

---

I suggest that you go back and read jesus teachings, as you clearly are missing something huge as evidenced by your attitude,- and while your at it be careful when making comments about religions you know little about. That is spreading propoganda and is not christian of you at all.

I can't possibly get through to someone that doesn't have jesus teachings in their heart. It's a bit like perl before swine.

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

---

Originally posted by crazyishone:

I'm sick of people tearing neighborlee up. Have some class guys.

---

If you mean by tearing up that we speak the truth which is harsh to his beliefs then there is nothing wrong in that. I sure wont be telling you anything else than the truth, even you would prefer something else right now.

quote:

---

Originally posted by crazyishone:
And before we get all high and mighty, our "Christian" predecessors lead the Crusades. Muslims arent the only ones with holy war mentioned. And before anybody says "well the catholics were the ones who staged the Crusades", remember the OT. Whether you believe that Islam is legit or not, you can't deny the commonalities in the various religions.

---

Not every one who claims to be a Christian is one and just because God told some one to do something doesnt mean every else should do it as well. Of course what God commands you to do is always the right thing to do but you have to consider the conditions under which the command was given. So I'm saying that stating that Christians lead the crusades or any other war is same as saying that Christians would lead war in iraq just because the president says he believes in God. We prove anything a man's testemony we can only choose what to believe based on that.

quote:

---

Originally posted by crazyishone:

People, please stop saying "Jesus is the only one who is still alive. Buddha, Muhammed, and all the others are dead!". To be fair, Buddha did not claim to be immortal, he didnt claim he was God, he didnt claim anything along those lines. He mearly stated that he was enlightened (which he was). Same with many others. So basically the whole "Jesus is the only one who is the Son of God, and the only one still alive" argument holds no water.

---

I don't expect anything to hold water if have not been reborn from above and thefore enlighted, unlike budha and others who were deceived in their broader path like all worshippes of graven images and other mumbo jumbo teachers. I hope you dont really consider what you state as a fact or anything like that? Because it seem that way...

I hope you dont consider me as some one who is narrow minded just because I state so simply what I believe in, from all my heart because of what God has placed in there in a miraculous way.

Jari.

------------------
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited March 29, 2006).]

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

So unless you are prepared to accept the fact that person who doesnt even know how to spell his own name right can tell you the Truth then I'm sorry for you.

------------------
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:
Prove that muslims are worshiping a 'other god' and you can make that claim, but until then your just spreadingt malicious propoganda based on ignorance.

---

This is rather simply to prove by citing the Bible and I believe I have shown you this verse before, if so please tell me why are you ignoring it?

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Muslims dont know the Son (Jesus) and therore they dont know God. It is simple as that and this is central part of the evangelium and notice that some of the jews didnt know God the Father either (which was why they crucified Jesus).

PS. Please answer nibble's questions, he made some good points in my opinion and questions which I would have asked my self if he wouldnt have done that first.

------------------
Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited March 29, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by jari (edited March 29, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:

...I need adults ,- with open minds willing to bridge differences by stating commonalities, and if you can't handle that, then you are NO CHRISTIANS and barely humans. if you really think islam is that bad fine but do better research first ( you dont know any decent muslims do you! ) . The five pillars of islam should be one of your first clues something is amiss with quoting various pieces of koran. The christian faith also has a few marrs in it if one looks at the old testament so lets not be so pious. One should also remember that mohammed said he was only helping his people by being a messanger of the teachings of jesus, so by repelling the islam you repell christianity. OOPS ;-))

cheers
neighborlee

---

For your information, neighborlee, it looks like you are the one who didn't do enough research. It's not that we haven't met 'decent' muslims. I do know some muslims who have some moral character, but you need to wake up and realize it's muslims who are terrorists and are sworn enemies of God's people. Besides, being "decent" isn't what gets you to heaven. it's repenting of your sins and believing in Jesus, not in Allah or Buddha, and if YOU had done "better research" you would know that. as for narrowminded and immature, take a look in the mirror. OOPS ;-))

[This message has been edited by um i cant think of a name (edited March 29, 2006).]

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"kinda makes ya wanna treat me with more respect, huh?"

[This message has been edited by pigpen98 (edited March 29, 2006).]

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"kinda makes ya wanna treat me with more respect, huh?"

quote:

---

Originally posted by pigpen98:
BESIDES BHUTISTS ARE CHINEAS.

---

uhm....im assuming that means, "besides buddhists are chinese."
What's your point, pigpen?? do you have something against china? That could be considered racist, and for your information, China is a communist country...no religion.

quote:

---

Originally posted by buddboy:
hey neighborlee... want some proof Muslims worship a different god? how about the fact that they are trying to kill off all the unbelievers... how about the fact that they are eternal enemies of the Jews, God's chosen people? how about they have a totally different 'bible'? there's more, but i gotta leave...

---

christians do the same things, under the auspices of being 'christians'..you know it as well as I do just maybe im willing to state so publicly and condem it for what it is ...ssdd

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

---

Originally posted by um i cant think of a name:

For your information, neighborlee, it looks like you are the one who didn't do enough research. It's not that we haven't met 'decent' muslims. I do know some muslims who have some moral character, but you need to wake up and realize it's muslims who are terrorists and are sworn enemies of God's people. Besides, being "decent" isn't what gets you to heaven. it's repenting of your sins and believing in Jesus, not in Allah or Buddha, and if YOU had done "better research" you would know that. as for narrowminded and immature, take a look in the mirror. OOPS ;-))

[This message has been edited by um i cant think of a name (edited March 29, 2006).]

---

narrow minded means tunnel vision..which you have in spades for making the idiotic comments you have.

Terrorists come in many forms dont they ;'-)

We are all sinners, but being nice hever hurt anyone now did it.

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

[This message has been edited by neighborlee (edited March 29, 2006).]

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+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:
I could care absolutely 100% less what your 'credentials' are..they are meaningless to me without being backed up with heart, and for that I've found severely lacking here at times, so dont get on your high horse calling me to task..

---

quote:

---

Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye?.

---

Tell me, what does Jesus tell you to do then? Is his advice to leave the beam and the speck in the eyes?

quote:

---

[B] I suggest that you go back and read jesus teachings, as you clearly are missing something huge as evidenced by your attitude,

---

Such as?

quote:

---

- and while your at it be careful when making comments about religions you know little about. That is spreading propoganda and is not christian of you at all.

---

I am well aware of Islamic teaching, and you have yet to answer the questions I pose.

quote:

---

I can't possibly get through to someone that doesn't have jesus teachings in their heart. It's a bit like perl before swine.

---

Which teachings?
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[b] have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

I most heartily agree with one part you've mentioned. Before Jesus, after Jesus, apart from a knowledge of the Gospel message, God judges hearts. I trust he will judge them righteously. Which is exactly the problem I see. All religions outside of Christianity give a false view of the human heart. Even Judaism tended toward this in practice. As Jesus also said, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees, you will not see heaven. As long as you are depending on your "good works" and being a "good person", your heart is not right and you are decieving yourself.

quote:

---

Originally posted by steveth45:
Neighborlee,
You accused me of saying that you don't believe scripture. Well, you stated that you are unable to believe that Jesus said/meant "I am the way the truth and the life, no one may come to the Father except by Me." Well, it's scripture, you either believe it or not. Also, I quoted from the Psalms and you said "prove it". Well, I got the distinct impression from both of these that you don't believe in the absolute veracity and divine inspiration of the scripture. If I was wrong about that, I apologize. However, I don't see how you can say you believe the Bible and simultaneously dismiss so many passages that are core to all of our beliefs. Please explain.

---

The bible has been 'interpreted' many times and is still a source of confusion in places for even biblical scholars. Denying that doesn't change anything. God wants us to think for ourselves, while using the bible as a divine guide. I believe in everything jesus ever said as he is god, but beyond that we must always use reason to deduce meaning. No one would claim to do everything that is in leviticus yet many cling to it as if it were divine and that is dangerous for us all. God gave us minds and a soul to perceive that which is beyond , and jesus to help us understand the how and why, and the rest is up to us.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=3222

is worth reading .

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

---

I most heartily agree with one part you've mentioned. Before Jesus, after Jesus, apart from a knowledge of the Gospel message, God judges hearts. I trust he will judge them righteously. Which is exactly the problem I see. All religions outside of Christianity give a false view of the human heart. Even Judaism tended toward this in practice. As Jesus also said, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees, you will not see heaven. As long as you are depending on your "good works" and being a "good person", your heart is not right and you are decieving yourself.

[/B]

---

well thanks indeed for the commonality...but I still fail to see the logic in condeming that which isn't in your universe just because its different ;-)

we dont condemn blacks anymore ( astonishing it took so darn long isn't it ) so I wish the shoe would start fitting elsewhere ;-)

Jesus said to love our neighbors lets not forget that..and even our enemies. I am not suggesting muslims are our enemies, because their 'radicals' amoungst themselves are just as dangerous as christian radicals ;-)

......neither will see heaven because the eyes of hate and intolerance can not bear witness.

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:

The bible has been 'interpreted' many times and is still a source of confusion in places for even biblical scholars. Denying that doesn't change anything. God wants us to think for ourselves, while using the bible as a divine guide. I believe in everything jesus ever said as he is god, but beyond that we must always use reason to deduce meaning. No one would claim to do everything that is in leviticus yet many cling to it as if it were divine and that is dangerous for us all. God gave us minds and a soul to perceive that which is beyond , and jesus to help us understand the how and why, and the rest is up to us.

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=3222

is worth reading .

cheers
neighborlee

---

That is an excellent article, thanks for the link. I actually don't prescribe to close-minded readings of the Bible. I don't have a specific end-times theory. I don't hold to a specific idealogical stance on most grey areas in the Bible.

As far as the Levitical law requirements, Jesus addressed them very specifically in the New Testament and we know we are under a new covenant--the Law of the Spirit. We no longer need animal sacrifices, Jesus said so. There is no danger in taking the Bible and its commandments literally, so long as you understand the complete text. I have, throughout these discussions expressed my desire that you read the scriptures more closely. At times, I think you've taken it personally. Honestly, anyone who has spent a reasonable amount of time studying the Bible would have known that Jesus removed from us the requirement to fulfill the ceremonial laws written in the Old Testament. It doesn't not require "perceiving beyond" to answer this simple puzzle about Levitical law.

The truth is that the old law was not erased and it is divine, it was fulfilled by Jesus. Jesus fulfilled all requirements of bloodshed for the forgiveness of sins as required by the law.

------------------
+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

As for the bigger fight (the good one )

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:
Prove that muslims are worshiping a 'other god' and you can make that claim, but until then your just spreadingt malicious propoganda based on ignorance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:
Thats rather arrogant of you to suggest that I 'read up' isn't it ? Does that suggest your knowledge is somewhat more holy and thus divine than mine ?..you would be severely mistaken.

I mentioned 'right-wing' because the pervasive current 'attiude' amoungst such people in this world is both unwarranted and undesireable because jesus clearly said so..so no I dont think I need to read up anywhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:
"For all the gods of the peoples are idols,
but the Lord made the heavens." (Ps 96:5)

meaning its clear that other religions worship idols and not the real thing ..what proof have you ? ;-)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by steveth45:
Neighborlee,
You accused me of saying that you don't believe scripture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by um i cant think of a name:
as for narrowminded and immature, take a look in the mirror. OOPS ;-))

---

As for buddah... Buddah was just some athiest. He taught people to be athiests. Now Buddism has become so twisted from its origins that people actualy worship buddah! I wouldent call this a god, or a son of god either.

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------------------------
Its one of those... Goop... things...
hotmail: Grafitiware@hotmail.com
Yahoo: namerobbedagian

That's all I wanted to know for now.

Ha - I was thinking of including a link to bible.org, but you beat me to it (a different page, though). Their Theology Program is something I'm interested in, but I've only listened to the introductory talk (http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=335). Something he brings up is that there are three major kinds of theology: apologetic, polemic, and irenic. There is a place for each one of them. Apologetics, as most of us probably know, defends the faith to those outside Christianity. Polemic theology attacks specific wrong ideas or doctrines. Irenic theology seeks first to accurately understand ideas and doctrines, and disagreement is done peaceably, in a climate of respectfully disagreeing, and being able to logically relate why one does or does not agree.

Just about all sides here have been involved in polemics, or worse, which, online, tends to erupt into flamewars, and I'm tired of that, so I thought I'd suggest a more irenic, or at least a more respectful approach.
"Arguing with people on the Internet is like competing in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded." (It's a horribly crude and mean quote but it really says something about online arguments.)
Discussion is good, but if what you're going for is to make the other person look stupid so you can laugh at them or condemn them and feel better about your views, seriously.... This is something I'm trying to be careful of, too.

That said, I am taking you to task, neighborlee, and asking for something more than vague assertions that Muslims preach the same Jesus that we do. You have often called us ignorant for expressing views different from yours, but then have not taken the time to inform us how it is that Islam preaches the same Jesus. I totally realize that the Koran talks about Jesus, and that Mohammad considers him to be a prophet, but he also says this:
"And for their saying, ‘Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God.’ Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness. And they who differed about him were in doubt concerning him: No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself." - Sura 4
So we have two very different accounts of Jesus' last days on earth. One account says he died by crucifixion and was raised to life by God. The other says that he did not die at all but God took him straight to heaven.
The Christian faith is useless and dead without Christ's death and resurrection both. If Jesus didn't die, then my sins aren't paid for or forgiven. If Jesus wasn't raised, then he can't be who he said he was.
I'd appreciate it if you could explain that to me.

Maybe later I'll address the Koran's views on violence, Jews, and Christians. Goop: "100% anti-christian"? Depends on what part of Koran you're reading at the moment.

[edit: minor grammar issues]

------------------
it's pronounced "tonics"

[This message has been edited by tonnyx (edited March 29, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by steveth45:
That is an excellent article, thanks for the link. I actually don't prescribe to close-minded readings of the Bible. I don't have a specific end-times theory. I don't hold to a specific idealogical stance on most grey areas in the Bible.

As far as the Levitical law requirements, Jesus addressed them very specifically in the New Testament and we know we are under a new covenant--the Law of the Spirit. We no longer need animal sacrifices, Jesus said so. There is no danger in taking the Bible and its commandments literally, so long as you understand the complete text. I have, throughout these discussions expressed my desire that you read the scriptures more closely. At times, I think you've taken it personally. Honestly, anyone who has spent a reasonable amount of time studying the Bible would have known that Jesus removed from us the requirement to fulfill the ceremonial laws written in the Old Testament. It doesn't not require "perceiving beyond" to answer this simple puzzle about Levitical law.

The truth is that the old law was not erased and it is divine, it was fulfilled by Jesus. Jesus fulfilled all requirements of bloodshed for the forgiveness of sins as required by the law.

---

You say jesus said we no longer need animal sacrifices..any idea why he said this and does it correleate to a world that should be vegetarian ?

you might conclude that from Genesis I:29-30

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonnyx:
Goop: "100% anti-christian"? Depends on what part of Koran you're reading at the moment.

---

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------------------------
Its one of those... Goop... things...
hotmail: Grafitiware@hotmail.com
Yahoo: namerobbedagian

[This message has been edited by goop2 (edited March 29, 2006).]

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"But it is God who judges: He brings one down, he exalts another." - Psalm 75:7

Startup Christian Games Company Producing Mobile/PC Games/Tools

??? Why are you dissing Neighborlee like that? He posted on here only an hour and a half ago -- that's not exactly an eternity for people who are adults and have jobs and responsibilities and whatnot.

It's one of him who has to reply to 8 of you, so let's keep the cheap ad hominem shots out of this, please?

--clint

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------------------------
Its one of those... Goop... things...
hotmail: Grafitiware@hotmail.com
Yahoo: namerobbedagian

quote:

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Im not a muslim so I dont read the koran. I HAVE heard the news though. You realize that christians are being killed because they arent muslims right?

---

Goop, I'm well aware of the news, and I'm reasonably well-informed about Islam (see my prior posts), and well aware of the danger if I were to ever go to an Islamic country. Your logic runs something like this: there are Muslims who are killing and want to kill people because they aren't Muslims. Christians aren't Muslim. Therefore Muslims are 100% anti-Christian. Since you didn't qualify "Muslims", it sounds like what you are saying is, 100% of Muslims are 100% anti-Christian, with the further implication that all Muslims hate/want to kill all non-Muslims. I did state earlier that would-be Muslims who try to deny all violence are out of line with historic, orthodox Islam. I stand by that statement. However, you will find people who are out of line, and many people will be very quick to point out the part of the Koran where Muhammad said that it is possible for Jews and Christians to go to heaven as well. Yes, he changed his story later and ended up slaughtering the Jews, but still, that statement is there, in the Koran.

I'm no Islamic expert, but I hope that I try to do my research and be well-informed before making blanket statements. I'm no Muslim either, but I'm not afraid to read the Koran. I am on guard, and I pray for discernment, but if Paul is okay with reading and quoting pagan poetry, I think I can be okay reading the Koran, and I hope that that would help equip me for witnessing to a Muslim, if ever the chance arises.

------------------
it's pronounced "tonics"

------------------
"But it is God who judges: He brings one down, he exalts another." - Psalm 75:7

Startup Christian Games Company Producing Mobile/PC Games/Tools

[This message has been edited by dartsman (edited March 30, 2006).]

------------------
------------------------
Its one of those... Goop... things...
hotmail: Grafitiware@hotmail.com
Yahoo: namerobbedagian

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:

You say jesus said we no longer need animal sacrifices..any idea why he said this and does it correleate to a world that should be vegetarian ?

you might conclude that from Genesis I:29-30

cheers
neighborlee

---

No, because Jesus ate fish, and fed it to his disciples as well, so I personally don't think that we're supposed to be vegetarians, following the example of Jesus that is. I like vegetarians though, they leave more meat for the rest of us .

------------------

quote:

---

The bible has been 'interpreted' many times and is still a source of confusion in places for even biblical scholars. Denying that doesn't change anything.

---

quote:

---

God wants us to think for ourselves, while using the bible as a divine guide.

---

quote:

---

I believe in everything jesus ever said as he is god, but beyond that we must always use reason to deduce meaning.

---

quote:

---

No one would claim to do everything that is in leviticus yet many cling to it as if it were divine and that is dangerous for us all. God gave us minds and a soul to perceive that which is beyond , and jesus to help us understand the how and why, and the rest is up to us.

---

quote:

---

well thanks indeed for the commonality...but I still fail to see the logic in condeming that which isn't in your universe just because its different ;-)

---

quote:

---

we dont condemn blacks anymore ( astonishing it took so darn long isn't it ) so I wish the shoe would start fitting elsewhere ;-)

---

quote:

---

Jesus said to love our neighbors lets not forget that..and even our enemies.

---

quote:

---

I am not suggesting muslims are our enemies, because their 'radicals' amoungst themselves are just as dangerous as christian radicals ;-)

---

quote:

---

......neither will see heaven because the eyes of hate and intolerance can not bear witness.

---

You keep going to your own quotes for most everything. How about "whoever loves is born of God and knows God, but he who does not love does not know God, for God is love." You keep trying to assume that anyone who disagrees with your views must "hate". Well, in that case then so did Jesus. If you want to equate belief in knowable truth as given in the Gospel, and the belief that we should do as Jesus said in spreading that message, as "hate" and "intolerance", then let us go on hating. Because a "hate" that heals would be far better than a "love" that lets wounds infect and kill.

[This message has been edited by nibble (edited March 30, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ereon:
No, because Jesus ate fish, and fed it to his disciples as well, so I personally don't think that we're supposed to be vegetarians, following the example of Jesus that is. I like vegetarians though, they leave more meat for the rest of us .

---

also lets not forget what I said earlier..Genesis I 29-30,,,to me its clear the meaning is we are to not eat meat,,so what would have changed from genesis to jesus time , and if so why did god change his mind

I thought only presidential candidates ( and now even bush is if you keep up on the news ) were flip-floppers ?

okay I have an idea..lets do this..everyone assume for a ENTIRE MONTH that there has been a huge disaster...anyone willing to kill, butcher and then eat their prey feel free...does it make you feel like a real gutsy man's man to do this,,,well good for you then and what about your women,,makes you feel more sexy maybe ?..hmm I dont know about you but its pathetic to even think about on any level.

I also want to mention the thing about the commandment to not kill ( now now lets not split hairs )...oops yeah I know those sneak in and well hmm...how can we possibly operate a CHURCH and a schoolhouse at one end of the street and a slaughterhouse at the other ?..to teach peace yet eat like birds of prey..

Each generation has run amok and torn us to pieces in return for the ugly lies which it has been taught ,, viz. that animals must be killed for food and people for military objectives.

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

------------------
In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonnyx:
Howdy, neighbor --
I am curious about your goal of world peace, which I have heard you mention a few times - please don't take umbrage, and correct me if I am wrong about your view; I want to make sure I understand you correctly: Your premise is this: that the god worshiped by the Muslim is the same as that of the Christian, the Jew, the Hindu, the Buddhist, native African tribes, Shinto, etc.?
And, that being the case, all ought to recognize that fact and live peaceably together?

---

I never claimed to be an expert on native african tribes, but yes , that is the idea. Its WAY MORE than just acknowledgeing common roots as we also have to be active participants IN the world and be responsible for it as GOD commanded we be.

quote:

---

Approximately there is where my knowledge of your views on this topic stops, and I was wondering if you could fill in a couple of the blanks:
Do all of these faiths lead to heaven?
What about the atheists? Where is their place in this vision of peace?

---

I will answer even though Im rather ( a test ? ) surprised you dont know this already from my previous posts ;-))HMMMMMMMMM...ok so first you ask do all faiths lead to heaven...if we are all sinners, then whose path really leads to heaven ?

secondly, have you ever heard the notion that even aethiests on their death bed ask god to forgive them and take them into his loving arms ?..;-)..now if we believe in a loving god as jesus protrayed ( the sparrow story ?) then I guess we have our answer

thirdly..we all have a place in the vision of peace. I takes a village

quote:

---

Discussion is good, but if what you're going for is to make the other person look stupid so you can laugh at them or condemn them and feel better about your views, seriously.... This is something I'm trying to be careful of, too.

---

agreed this doesn't put us in a terribly good light.

quote:

---

That said, I am taking you to task, neighborlee, and asking for something more than vague assertions that Muslims preach the same Jesus that we do.

---

take me to task master I fear not for I speak the humble truth..Mohammed said he was doing nothing but sharing the message jesus brought with his fellow muslims. We would do well to remember that while radical muslim extremeists take 'jihad' to mean war, that its real meaning is spiritual journey....and we all know that was essentially the teachings of jesus, that we needed to involve ourselves on this journey and hopefully take the narrow road ;-)

quote:

---

You have often called us ignorant for expressing views different from yours, but then have not taken the time to inform us how it is that Islam preaches the same Jesus.

---

I tend to get defensive when I feel im being attacked needlessly...I am fine when debate continues in a respectable vein but when it does not I am obliged to remiond people of our responsibilities given to us by god.

quote:

---

I totally realize that the Koran talks about Jesus, and that Mohammad considers him to be a prophet, but he also says this:
"And for their saying, ‘Verily we have slain the Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, an Apostle of God.’ Yet they slew him not, and they crucified him not, but they had only his likeness. And they who differed about him were in doubt concerning him: No sure knowledge had they about him, but followed only an opinion, and they did not really slay him, but God took him up to Himself." - Sura 4

---

I am sure to take slack for this one but I have broad shoulders so here goes....yes I know bible says he was crucified and that it is the stapel of the christian faith, but frankly jesus crucifixtion to me is not what I thirst for but the entirety of his techings that feed my soul. Maybe that is the position of muslims as well React as you will but I dont think that makes me any less a man of god than any of you.

quote:

---

So we have two very different accounts of Jesus' last days on earth. One account says he died by crucifixion and was raised to life by God. The other says that he did not die at all but God took him straight to heaven.

---

I dont know about you, but I prefer the second one, although I understand as well that the first one indicates god taking away OUR sins..frankly I feel a tad responsible for my own sins, and yes I think part of our reason here on earth is to learn to BE gods children, which includes taking responsibility for our own actions. We learn that way right ? ( children)

quote:

---

The Christian faith is useless and dead without Christ's death and resurrection both. If Jesus didn't die, then my sins aren't paid for or forgiven. If Jesus wasn't raised, then he can't be who he said he was.
I'd appreciate it if you could explain that to me.

---

going back to my last statement in this message I can't really agree with that You are basically saying that if christ hadn't died a horrible death on the cross then god could not forgive YOU of your OWN sins ?..wow what a novel concept )..I am not making fun of you or mocking you, I am only trying to make you think about what your saying ;=)..if that makes me worthy of being stonned then I gladly accept the punishment.

quote:

---

Maybe later I'll address the Koran's views on violence, Jews, and Christians. Goop: "100% anti-christian"? Depends on what part of Koran you're reading at the moment.

[edit: minor grammar issues]

---

I prefer Qur'an as the arabic word so ill leave behind the english transliteration I guess now

cheers
neighborlee
P>S> sorry it took so long to reply.....

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

---

Originally posted by buddboy:
so God gave us dominion over the animals so we can do what, train them to jump through a hoop and eat out of our hands? hmm... makes a whole bunch of sense... i for one am not giving up burgers and steaks (ooh, and ribs too) for some online person who thinks that God wants us to be vegetarians and that we should follow Allah...

---

God gave us dominion..hmmmm maybe it was test...ohoh me thinks your are getting a F ,,I imagine god will let you retake the test though

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

---

Originally posted by nibble:
You keep going to your own quotes for most everything. How about "whoever loves is born of God and knows God, but he who does not love does not know God, for God is love." You keep trying to assume that anyone who disagrees with your views must "hate". Well, in that case then so did Jesus. If you want to equate belief in knowable truth as given in the Gospel, and the belief that we should do as Jesus said in spreading that message, as "hate" and "intolerance", then let us go on hating. Because a "hate" that heals would be far better than a "love" that lets wounds infect and kill.

[This message has been edited by nibble (edited March 30, 2006).]

---

You must use reason even on what Jesus said.<< I thought this was a christian forum ?

a hate that heals ?...but wait jesus said to love our enemeies

your sending conflicting ideals here ...

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

------------------
In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:

You say jesus said we no longer need animal sacrifices..any idea why he said this and does it correleate to a world that should be vegetarian ?

you might conclude that from Genesis I:29-30

cheers
neighborlee

---

I encourage you, once more, to search the scriptures for answers to these questions. You may be surprised to learn that scripture directly addresses this issue. There is no need to jump to conclusions.

"One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him." Romans 14:2,3

------------------
+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:

okay well yes there is the story about jesus eating fish, but there is also the story that he and his brother were very likely raised as vegetarians..would it surprise anyone that god doesn't kill to sustain himself ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:

I will answer even though Im rather ( a test ? ) surprised you dont know this already from my previous posts ;-))HMMMMMMMMM...ok so first you ask do all faiths lead to heaven...if we are all sinners, then whose path really leads to heaven ?

secondly, have you ever heard the notion that even aethiests on their death bed ask god to forgive them and take them into his loving arms ?..;-)..now if we believe in a loving god as jesus protrayed ( the sparrow story ?) then I guess we have our answer

thirdly..we all have a place in the vision of peace. I takes a village

---

Whos path leads to heaven? Well I think we all would like to know that, why didnt you answer?
Sure SOME aethiests ask god to forgive them, but then I guess they wouldent be aethiests anymore would they? What about the ones who dont? I think its quite obvius thats what was meant in this question!

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:

I dont know about you, but I prefer the second one, although I understand as well that the first one indicates god taking away OUR sins..frankly I feel a tad responsible for my own sins, and yes I think part of our reason here on earth is to learn to BE gods children, which includes taking responsibility for our own actions. We learn that way right ? ( children)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by neighborlee:

going back to my last statement in this message I can't really agree with that You are basically saying that if christ hadn't died a horrible death on the cross then god could not forgive YOU of your OWN sins ?..wow what a novel concept )..I am not making fun of you or mocking you, I am only trying to make you think about what your saying ;=)..if that makes me worthy of being stonned then I gladly accept the punishment.

---

Now. If you dont believe the bible, why did you say otherwise? Why do you call yourself a christian? You arent one, or you would go along with christian morals. Im just confused.. what religion ARE you anyway??

------------------
------------------------
Its one of those... Goop... things...
hotmail: Grafitiware@hotmail.com
Yahoo: namerobbedagian

[This message has been edited by goop2 (edited March 30, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by goop2 (edited March 30, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by goop2 (edited March 31, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by steveth45:
I encourage you, once more, to search the scriptures for answers to these questions. You may be surprised to learn that scripture directly addresses this issue. There is no need to jump to conclusions.

"One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him." Romans 14:2,3

---

well of course god accepts them that is the nature of god,,,would we really expect less..it is only man that sometimes lacks unconditional love.

God is our example and strength.

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

oh but its too late..you said you WANT to. That makes you more of a christian than me just because I am willing to question that which isn't in step with the rest of jesus teachings ?

..and whats with this BE GODS stuff ??..you are paraphrasing my statements incorrectly Im sure you know ? That is not nice to misuse someones words like that.

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

---

Originally posted by steveth45:
I encourage you, once more, to search the scriptures for answers to these questions. You may be surprised to learn that scripture directly addresses this issue. There is no need to jump to conclusions.

"One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him." Romans 14:2,3

---

That doesn't surprise me much..Paul wasn't too worried about vegetarianism anyway so....anyway I"d rather listen to God than Paul I also dont see how you can avoid Genesis I 29-30.

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

quote:

---

Originally posted by buddboy:
so know you're judging me? wtf (what the fish)? I don't know who you think you are... i don't know where you are with God, and you don't know about me. i'm not going to judge you, because God says we'll be judged the same way we judge others... just be careful... so God gave us dominion as a test? to see what we would do? whatever..

---

Im not judging anyone...Im offering reasoned opinions about what I deem very important to mans eventual spiritual evolution.

cheers
neighborlee

------------------
one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

EDIT: Oh and concerning vegetarianism, I don't remember where it is, but, essentially Paul (i think) said, "if you feel it is a sin to eat meat sacrificed to idols, don't eat it. If you don't feel that it is sin, do not try to convice the other person about your beliefs as you would be causing him to sin."

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

[This message has been edited by CPUFreak91 (edited March 30, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by goop2:
Im not a muslim so I dont read the koran.

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So am i but I read the koran to understand muslims. The women part is IMO the most messed up

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

I wont argue theology and doctrine, because i just don't know exactly what I believe.

But, I know that you know what you believe, and you know why. I have a great amount of respect for that, and "narrow minded" is one of the last things I would consider you as.

to me "narrow minded" is when somebody firmly believes something "just because". There is a difference between "faith" and blind leading the blind. Every time you make a point, you back it up with scripture, and I appreciate that.
Hopefully you understand that I do have quite a bit of respect for you.

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"I bleed black tears"

Will the emo kids be my friends now?

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Its one of those... Goop... things...
hotmail: Grafitiware@hotmail.com
Yahoo: namerobbedagian

Do you believe that Jesus is God, and that his incarnation around 2000 years ago , was his ONLY human incarnation. (and thus you also assert that He is not the reincarnation of anybody else)

I know that you strong believe in Jesus's moral teachings, especially the commandments summed in in "love you God anad love your neighbour' and that is very good.

Do you however believe that Jesus role on earth was much more than just a good teacher, showing us an example of how to live, that we are SAVED because of his sacrifice, his death, his blood - which we remember in communion. And thus do you also assert that our good deeds (which of course we are called also to do) cannot save us, but its only by the Blood of Jesus

Do you believe that Jesus is the only way, truth and live, and that NOBODY can come to the father apart from by Him.

Do you believe that Jesus is unique, in that he is not a created being, that he was there before the creation of the universe?

Do you also believe that Jesus is unique, in that though he did take the form of a human and was both fully human and fully devine, that we are distinctively different (as the created, not the creator). And that though we may be able to become Godly (because of God’s work in our lives) we will never ever become God, and we will never ever be equal to Jesus, or do you believe that Jesus is just more ‘evolved’ than us, and that we can become likewise if only we following his teachings?

Do you believe that we are born once (in the flesh), die and are judged? And thus assert that there is no such thing as reincarnation?

Do you believe that the heart of a man is deceitful above all things?

Do you believe that though we are crated in the image of God, and there is much good that he has put in us, and we are wonderfully created by God, that We are born from birth as sinners, (and that its not just a product of our eviroment), and that we have a fallen nature, and our hearts are naturally evil and rebellious against God,
Or do you believe that people are essentially good?

Do you believe somebody like ghandi, who did good deeds, yet rejected Jesus is saved (assuming that he still rejected jesus on his deathbed), or not?

Do you believe that our human righteousness to God is like a filthy rag, and that our righteousness is only because of God’s grace, and because of Jesus, and that it is by the working of the Holy Spirit that we can be righteous, not by own own effort – our choice is this is really choosing whether to Let the Holy Spirit do its work, or resist Him)
or
Do you believe that anybody can become righteous just by trying to follow the moral teachings of God

Do you believe in creation, by God in the sense that HE spoke and it was, or do you believe in evolution?

Thanks enough questions for now. Please answer these questions because I think they are essential to having this thread no go around and around in circles.

Sincerely,
Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

quote:

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Do you believe that Jesus is God, and that his incarnation around sav2000 years ago , was his ONLY human incarnation. (and thus you also assert that He is not the reincarnation of anybody else)

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its been a long day and I dont feel particularly like an essay..I may answer later but im uncertain how I feel about the drill of questions presented to me..I am fully able to answer but ...oh well another time perhaps

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

[This message has been edited by neighborlee (edited March 31, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by neighborlee (edited March 31, 2006).]

So again you have sort of a dilemna here. You mention one part of Genesis, but need to look at others. You want to believe some of Scripture, but you are ready to dismiss other parts simply because you don't care for them (such as Paul's writing). My challenge to you at that point would be for you to point to anything in what Paul writes that is not consistent with the rest of the Bible.

This is actually another issue with the Koran. It actually claims that cattle were created for man to eat (6:142, 16:5, 40:79). To me this is a major issue that seems to point toward the truth of Genesis and the whole Scripture as Jesus affirmed. While there are certainly questions out there, the explanation from Genesis and the rest of the Bible makes the most sense of everything. We feel that a world with carnivory isn't "right". That's because it isn't. And it won't be until it is renewed as the Bible says it will be.

Neighborlee was kind enough to spend several hours chatting with Ereon and me on IRC yesterday, and I think I understand a little bit more of where he's coming from, and where people are clashing with him.

Many of us on here are concerned primarily with the order of salvation -- the "ordo salutis" to put it into the old Latin. We're concerned with what Christ's death on the cross accomplished, how it was the perfect sacrifice that can cleanse us from our sins, etc. We're very focused on the means and the mechanism that grace comes to us. We're starting with the theory behind "how salvation works", and then we move to more practical things after that.

Neighborlee is ignoring the theory until there is good practice. He is trying to start with what Jesus has commanded us to do in Mark 12:28-31. He's trying to love God, and to love his neighbor as himself. He's willing to overlook differences of opinion in favor of uniting people together in love first, and then witness to them for more truth.

quote:

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[3/30/2006 5:25 PM] <neighborlee> well
[3/30/2006 5:26 PM] <neighborlee> if we obey jesus then we must: love our neighbors and god as we love oureselves, and our enemeis too
[3/30/2006 5:26 PM] <neighborlee> any else takes care of itself automagically imo
[3/30/2006 5:26 PM] <neighborlee> when asked jesus said those are the two most important commandments
[3/30/2006 5:26 PM] <Ereon> Very true.
[3/30/2006 5:27 PM] <neighborlee> I just love that
[3/30/2006 5:27 PM] <neighborlee> so simple yet so divine

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So he's trying to start with the practical aspect of loving people, and then pointing them towards Jesus:

quote:

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[3/30/2006 5:29 PM] <neighborlee> jesus is the way , but if there are yet some people that dont know him yet..we are to show them )
[3/30/2006 5:29 PM] <HanClinto> I agree with that -- Jesus is the way, and we are to show others that he is the way
[3/30/2006 5:30 PM] <neighborlee> but we must do so with a kind heart
[3/30/2006 5:30 PM] <neighborlee> just as jesus did
[3/30/2006 5:30 PM] <neighborlee> thats why i'm doing heatseed

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Here's another snippet from the end of our conversation. I think it sums up Neighborlee's position pretty well, and really helps to clarify where a major difference/misunderstanding is:

quote:

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[3/30/2006 6:07 PM] <neighborlee> to love our neighbors and our enemeies as ourselves..if we can't love muslims how are we to accept jesus teachings..its gotta start somewhere )
[3/30/2006 6:14 PM] <HanClinto> Yeah -- I totally agree that we should love muslims and atheists and satanists -- but the difference that I see you two splitting on is how we love them. He feels that you're trying to accept them and comprimise Jesus's teachings in order to help them feel welcome. You feel that he's being too hard and unloving towards them through his "exclusivist" message.
[3/30/2006 6:15 PM] <neighborlee> yes I do
[3/30/2006 6:16 PM] <neighborlee> I dont agree with all things in the qur'an or his marriage at young age but then i'd rather take the whole of his message and use as a stepping stone for dialgoue...
[3/30/2006 6:16 PM] <HanClinto> Perhaps we could get along better if we better understood the difference between accepting someone and loving them. I want to love Jim Jones, but I don't want to accept his beliefs as true.
[3/30/2006 6:17 PM] <neighborlee> yes
[3/30/2006 6:17 PM] <HanClinto> I think that's a great thing! Paul totally did that in Acts where he preached on Mars Hill. He started with what the Greeks believed and then moved beautifully into teaching them about Jesus
[3/30/2006 6:17 PM] <HanClinto> (using the Qu'ran as a stepping stone)
[3/30/2006 6:18 PM] <neighborlee> and who knows..accepting him at first glance out of love could turn into something more later on..like maybe his conversion [in reference to Jim Jones]
[3/30/2006 6:18 PM] <HanClinto> Well, how far do we accept him? I try to not judge people and to be "accepting", but I don't comprimise my message of truth in that acceptance.
[3/30/2006 6:19 PM] <neighborlee> well
[3/30/2006 6:19 PM] <neighborlee> I go at it this way
[3/30/2006 6:19 PM] <neighborlee> jesus said to love our enemeies..which at some point can work towards bigger things..
[3/30/2006 6:19 PM] <neighborlee> peace through unconditional love..that was really his entire message
[3/30/2006 6:19 PM] <neighborlee> to do less could be global war
[3/30/2006 6:20 PM] <neighborlee> and look where we are
[3/30/2006 6:20 PM] <neighborlee> id not take in a religion that said killing was ok..that woud be silly but we can unite on common ground where its obvious it exists..and work from there

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So to sum-up, we're differing on how we define "accept". I certainly believe that I should love everyone, even the Jim Jones types, but I don't feel that I should accept them (because I don't want to accept their beliefs as possibly valid or possibly true). Neighborlee believes that we should accept them in the sense that we still love them unconditionally, and don't judge them, but love them first, and *then* help point them towards God in a kind, peaceful and loving way -- not judging, condemning, accusing or fighting with them.

In light of all of this, I think I can appreciate what Neighborlee is trying to do a little bit better. I still conflict with him over how much we should borrow from other religions (and where do we draw a line between the crazy Jim Jones types and the seemingly-near-Christianity-Muslims), and I think we both understand where the other one stands on that issue.

As to what kind of game he's making, he's planning on something that can be described as a mix between Myst and Fable that's non-violent and takes the good parts out of each of those games and leaves the bad. I imagine it will be very focused on unity, and trying to show how the message of monotheism and loving your neighbor is a commonality through many world religions.

I hope that this post has helped answer many of your questions. I hope that we can all try and love Neighborlee and understand him before criticizing him too harshly. In light of that, I also encourage each one of us to know what we believe and why we believe it. Personally, I know where I agree with Neighborlee, and where I disagree with him. I also know why I don't feel that this is the sort of project that I want to work on. In all of this, I just wanted to help you all see where he's coming from a little bit better.

Respectfully,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited March 31, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by HanClinto:
So to sum-up, we're differing on how we define "accept". I certainly believe that I should love everyone, even the Jim Jones types, but I don't feel that I should accept them (because I don't want to accept their beliefs as possibly valid or possibly true). Neighborlee believes that we should accept them in the sense that we still love them unconditionally, and don't judge them, but love them first, and *then* help point them towards God in a kind, peaceful and loving way -- not judging them, condemning them or needlessly accusing or fighting with them.

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I agree that we should love every one, even pray for those who hate us. Jesus ate with pagans and when He did that I believe the pagans (and the publicans) were willing to listen rather than debate (unlike the pharisees) so it was possible to talk with them. But what comes to those who are not willing to listen, Jesus instructs us Christians to leave them. And what comes to those with another Gospel, "let him be accursed."
So I'm just stating this out to at least tell what I'm willing to tolerate and what not, without referring to any one in these forums.

And to be clear I think it's great if we as Christians can talk to muslims and bring them Gospel but we should not accept/adopt anything from their religion.

In Christ,
Jari.

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Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited March 31, 2006).]

I'm so glad you were able to come to an understanding with NL and basically agree to disagree. This forum discussion became a bit heated at times, and I apologize to everyone if I had any part in that.

God bless,
Steve

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+---------+
|steveth45|
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quote:

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Originally posted by nibble:
[B]Neighborlee,
Your question about vegetarianism is reasonable, but the short answer to me would be that circumstances have changed.

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I wont let you change gods word in Genesis as that would be blasphemous. It is just altering gods word to suit or carnal habits. If its easier we tend to do it and fool our minds into thinking its what god wanted

Why take the easy road,,,jesus commanded us that the narrow less popular road was the only road to salvation and inheritance of the kingdom of God.

I also dont understand whats so hard to accept about the ideology OF vegetariasm...we all accept that it is wrong to kill, so why is that philosophy difficult to transfer over to the kingdom of animals ? ;-)

Which caters to 'love' more than the other ?

Does not love center us around God, so I put to you to choose the path to that ultimate goal and leave the other in the dust where it belongs. It was not easy for me 20 years ago when I made the journey from eating meat to not eating meat, but I made the journey because:

1) http://www.heartseed.org/visitation.html < showed me why
2) Genesis I: 29-30 commanded me to
3) All of Jesus teachings obviously do ( the fish debate is UP for debate since from my research I found also that James the righteous was rasied a vegetarian so its not a big jump to therefore conclude that jesus was also,,I mean afterall see#4 >
4) http://www.jesusveg.com/ < the prince of 'peace' eats a lamb instead of coddling it ??..yeah isn't that a grand vision of the lord!!
5) http://www.jesusveg.com/scholar.html < in case all the above is not enough to convince the meanderings of your yet carnal soul.
6) http://www.soystache.com/jesus.htm < another good source
7) makes the case for james the righteous and hence jesus being a vegetarian:: http://beingoflight.brotherofyeshua.com/vegetarian.htm
8) http://www.members.tripod.com/jbrooks2/King_James_Vegetarian_Verses.html
9) http://www.jesusveg.com/jewish.html
10) http://www.flex.com/~jai/articles/jesusveg.html
11) http://www.ivu.org/history/christian/christ_veg.html

If you dont believe me or the vast resources available to peruse,,why not pray about it, and then fight your urges ( how I was raised and not my parents fault , just their upbringing as well ) as I did and come out victorious for the lord our god.

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

[This message has been edited by neighborlee (edited March 31, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by neighborlee (edited March 31, 2006).]

Genesis 9 1-7
God blessed Noah and his sons and told them,"Multiply and fill the earth. All the wild animals, large and small, and all the birds and fish will be afraid of you. I have placed them in your power. I have given them to you as food, just as I have given you grains and vegetables. But you must never eat animals that still have their life blood in them. And murder is forbidden. Animals that kill people must die, and anyone who murders must be killed. Yes, you must execute anyone who murders another person, for to kill a person is to kill a living being made in God's image. Now you must have many childeren and repopulate the earth. Yes, multiply and fill the earth!"

Thats saying, here! you can eat this, but you HAVE to cook it first. notice that it talks about murdering people, but says nothing about killing animals(exept that you should kill ones that kill people).

A quote from talking to a friend
Goop2 says: so I guess the terrorists realy arent muslims?
!]-toXic-[! says: hell no
!]-toXic-[! says: their just extremist i think
Goop2 says: lol
!]-toXic-[! says: their kinda loco if u ask me
Goop2 says: ya
!]-toXic-[! says: their is somethin in the quran that says that u have a place in heaven if u give ur life for u country
Goop2 says: cause thats what I realy thought of when I thought muslim
!]-toXic-[! says: but they totaly misinterperted that
!]-toXic-[! says: omg u thought i was terrorist!
Goop2 says: lmao
Goop2 says: no
!]-toXic-[! says: dude ive known u for how long
Goop2 says: rofl

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Its one of those... Goop... things...
hotmail: Grafitiware@hotmail.com
Yahoo: namerobbedagian

[This message has been edited by goop2 (edited March 31, 2006).]

i know my questions sounded a bit like an interogation, and i am sorry for that, but i do wish you to answer them, even just in short words. as these questions will help clear up some issues as they are major elements of a biblical worldview or not.

Karl

as for vegetarianism, my wife's family are adventist which have many vegetarians, and i don't have anything agaisnt it, when its put in the correct place and context, but when its elevated to an idol, and a distraction from the more important spiritual things, then i have a problem with it (as with that jesusveg.com site, which actually is a PETA site, run by people who don't believe in christ, but put in terminology to try to persuade christians to be vegetarians.

I personally long for the day, when there is no more death, suffering for people, or animals, and the bible says that all creation is groining for the redemption of man, and in heaven there will not be death. And yes we are to be good stewards, and not cruel to animals, and those factory farms and such are horrible places, with are abusive, interested only in profit.. However we still need to be careful, not to built spirituality around vegeterianism.
vegeterianism may be a good and healthy thing, but on that jesusveg site are comments like this, that show that really it takes the focus away from Jesus and onto peripheral things like this.. making you major on the minors and miss the purpose of the gospel

quote:

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..affirming vegetarianism as the ultimate meaning of Jewish moral teaching.

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also you got back to Genesis, and God tells people to eat meat, sure this isn't his main purpose, But part of the result of the context of fallen humanity since the fall. But even before the flood God had commanded men to kill animals.. like abel. to sacrifice the lamb. for Justice shows that the wages of sin is death, and can only be paid by blood, this is central to the christian gospel, and is the reason why we NEED Jesus, as our SAVIOR - not just as a moral teacher. Jesus is the lamb of God, who was sacrificed for our sins, he paid the price with his blood..

but anyway the genesis scriptures

quote:

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Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. 2 The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

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....
as for me i meditate on this scripture, which i believe shows that we can eat meat without a guilty conscience with thanksgiving to God, in worship to God, but also we can worship God by being vege as well..

quote:

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6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

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i am in no way trying to persuade you not to be a vegetarian though, go for it. its a healthy way of life, and you can worship God in it (as we can in all areas of our life), as long as it doesn't become an Idol.
but anyway, please take the time to answer my questions.

but more importantly the bible warns of a deception in this area in the last days.

quote:

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1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

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I believe that you are sincere, but i do believe (and i hope i am wrong) that you have been decieved by doctrines of demons, not because of the vege thing really (but that scripture does indicate that context), but some of the other beliefs that go against what Jesus said, such as your belief in reincarnation, 'spiritual evolution" and such

please, if we want this dialog to carry on, in a way that is edifying, and not about peripherals answer my worldview questions that i posted last time.

in Christ,
Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited March 31, 2006).]

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Its one of those... Goop... things...
hotmail: Grafitiware@hotmail.com
Yahoo: namerobbedagian

quote:

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I believe that you are sincere, but i do believe (and i hope i am wrong) that you have been decieved by doctrines of demons, not because of the vege thing really (but that scripture does indicate that context), but some of the other beliefs that go against what Jesus said, such as your belief in reincarnation, 'spiritual evolution" and such

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I am really sorry that I have given you the impression I am a demon.

I have no desire to cause problems here so I guess that is my ticket to leave and never return.

It has been real and may God bless everyone.

PLease Klumsy dont contact me as I see nothing we'd have in common and atm Im a little angry ( yea I know what a sinner huh ) at the suggestion of my spirtual fitness.

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

I have to tell you something about vegetarism, I used to be one, I gave up on eating meat because the idea of eating something that was intelligence and had emotions started to seem cruel and it became discusting idea to eat me. Well that was then when I did not know God and all I had was love for this world. Later on when maturing spiritually I realize how wrong way of thinking that was for God is earth and everything in it and all is just dust.

And consider the message in genesis, God tells us to do something or allows us to do something, now does this mean we arent allowed to do anything else? If God says love your enemy does it mean we shouldnt love those who are not our enemies?

Here is some list of what the people of israel were allowed to eat and what not:

Deu 14:3-21 Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing. - 4 These are the beasts which ye shall eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat, - 5 The hart, and the roebuck, and the fallow deer, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the wild ox, and the chamois. - 6 And every beast that parteth the hoof, and cleaveth the cleft into two claws, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, that ye shall eat. - 7 Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you. - 8 And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase. - 9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat: - 10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you. - 11 Of all clean birds ye shall eat. - 12 But these are they of which ye shall not eat: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray, - 13 And the glede, and the kite, and the vulture after his kind, - 14 And every raven after his kind, - 15 And the owl, and the night hawk, and the cuckow, and the hawk after his kind, - 16 The little owl, and the great owl, and the swan, - 17 And the pelican, and the gier eagle, and the cormorant, - 18 And the stork, and the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat. - 19 And every creeping thing that flieth is unclean unto you: they shall not be eaten. - 20 But of all clean fowls ye may eat. - 21 Ye shall not eat of any thing that dieth of itself: thou shalt give it unto the stranger that is in thy gates, that he may eat it; or thou mayest sell it unto an alien: for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.

More references:
Animals are below humans and less worthy Gen 1:26 Gen 1:28 Dan 4:16 Luk 12:7
Animal sacrifices: Lev 3:1 Lev 3:6
Gen 1:29 - "it shall be for meat" And so it was, until God drove them out of the paradise.

God's word and law does not change, but of course situation can change. And like a man can be made holy (only by God) so can meat become holy:

Act 10:12-15 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. - 13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. - 14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean. - 15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Which is why all meat is good to eat, but not blood.

In Christ,
Jari.

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Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited April 01, 2006).]

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"kinda makes ya wanna treat me with more respect, huh?"

quote:

---

Originally posted by klumsy:
[B]neighbourlee,

i know my questions sounded a bit like an interogation, and i am sorry for that, but i do wish you to answer them, even just in short words. as these questions will help clear up some issues as they are major elements of a biblical worldview or not.

---

I saw 'demon' and sadly glanced over the part about ( I hope Im wrong ) so...lets begin where we left off.

I have no intention of stepping up to this inquisition because your views in some places wont match mine thus anything I say will be billed as demonistic and Im not going there sorry. If scholars dont agree alot of the time, and ACts 17:11 have god telling us to be be noble and seach the scriptures making it abundantly clear imo that we must be careful on interpretation. I would always consider you a friend and love you as such, but from these statements of yours I truly wonder if in your 'heart' you could do the same, since it seems You feel Im a demon or something (SIGH). It so 'easy' to blame demons for causing someones problems because then the person has no way to defend themself because the malody is out of their control, and they must be killed or burned as a witch. We all know what happened to that mentality dont we.

Also, would you say to even muslims ( the ones that pray more/ day than most christians do ,- that they are demon worshipers because of their belief in 'allah' and not 'god' ?..taking your logic that would seem to be the case. Anything that doesn't fit our viewpoints could be made to be credited to demons I suppose, and what a slippery slope that would be for alot of other issues.

quote:

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as for vegetarianism, my wife's family are adventist which have many vegetarians, and i don't have anything agaisnt it, when its put in the correct place and context, but when its elevated to an idol, and a distraction from the more important spiritual things, then i have a problem with it (as with that jesusveg.com site, which actually is a PETA site, run by people who don't believe in christ, but put in terminology to try to persuade christians to be vegetarians.

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'elevated to an idol'.....where have I made it unto an idol ?..Jesus was himself a vegetarian, as from the URL's I have provided that much is at least fairly in 'debate' you must admit. I would put this to you. We can assume that jesus din't always cook/eat his own food, so when he went to gather 'food' can you see jesus butchering a lamb and then eating it ?? That world-view just doesn't do much for me sorry yet basically that is what your prescribe by stating he is not a vegetarian.

BTW what is your faith klumsy ?..I would presume you follow your wife and are adventist ? What proof have you that peta dont believe in christ. They dont have to persuade ME to be a vegetarian as I was ONE 20 years ago klumsy..so sorry you'll need to find a different arguement for that one.

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I personally long for the day, when there is no more death, suffering for people, or animals, and the bible says that all creation is groining for the redemption of man, and in heaven there will not be death. And yes we are to be good stewards, and not cruel to animals, and those factory farms and such are horrible places, with are abusive, interested only in profit.. However we still need to be careful, not to built spirituality around vegeterianism.

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if building spirituality around vegetarianism places us closer to god, then Im all for it..remember jesus most likely was as we could illustrate also from the fact its clear james the righteoues was, and since they were in the same family, the liklihood of the whole family being raised this way is high regardless of what we as individuals may want to take from scripture. ( and many of us do try to paint scripture to meet our own agenda's )

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vegeterianism may be a good and healthy thing, but on that jesusveg site are comments like this, that show that really it takes the focus away from Jesus and onto peripheral things like this.. making you major on the minors and miss the purpose of the gospel

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In your opinion , sure

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I believe that you are sincere, but i do believe (and i hope i am wrong) that you have been decieved by doctrines of demons, not because of the vege thing really (but that scripture does indicate that context), but some of the other beliefs that go against what Jesus said, such as your belief in reincarnation, 'spiritual evolution" and such

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#1 You are wrong,,stuff happens )....#2,- There is plenty of proof in the bible for reincarnation, and just b ecause your 'interprertation' of those events disallow such philisophy to be born from it does not make mine wrong.

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please, if we want this dialog to carry on, in a way that is edifying, and not about peripherals answer my worldview questions that i posted last time.

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I have no intention of doing so ..You will have to figure it out from what I've already said, as while Jesus refused to be tempted,- I do as well, and specifically because as I"ve shown from the URL's, that reincarnation is indeed mentioned in the bible and so the difference becomes our own interpretation of those events, which as we know not even biblical scholars can agree on sometimes. We must be careful to be so dogmatic as Acts 17:11 and mat 15: 2-9 commands of us.

Regardless of our differing viewpoints we are to love our neighbors and treat them as we would be treated and not scorn them we what they put forth is non but a loving and caring attitude for itself and their fellow animal kingdom of which god loves as well. I firmly believe it is wrong to so easily disregard Genesis 1 : 29-30. IF you are willing to do that you might as well disregard the entire bible and thus gods word.

You profess I should be accountable to your doctrine yet you do not even taken seriously god's own doctine in Genesis 1: 29-30 . You know what jesus said to the pharassies in mat 15: 2-9 may indeed apply here.

Mark 8:38 also is highly suggestive that even though the claim is your saved by christ bloodshed, that words you spoke while alive will make jesus shun you even so when he returns with god and the angels .

Mark 8: 29 & 30 show clearly that when the disciples guess that he was john the baptist and even Elias, that jesus did not correct them and go, oh ye sinners for believing in reincarnation but instead just said to tell no one of this in verse 30 .

That is the reason to unite on commonality because its clear we can't always rely on scripture as meaning sometimes is twisted to suit ones agenda.

With that I should really start 'working' and less 'chatting' or this game is never going to get done..

I love you all and in christ look fwd to our reunion in eternity when that day comes..until then may we all know the love and hence the truth of christ.

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org

[This message has been edited by neighborlee (edited April 02, 2006).]

At CCN we have had many civil discussions (more so in the olden days when there were more older people arund) with people of varying beliefs, where people would not be able to agree, and many of them were beneficiaul and a good experience for all, However people were very clear with the worldview behind the statements, and that gave the context to the chat, my questions to you were to bring that context, otherwise we are just talking semantics, cliches and phrases which could mean a tonne of different things, for example
somebody saying

Jesus is my Lord and Savior could mean:
"Jesus is my get-out of jail, go to heaven free card, and well Lord is some nice fancy word which i will sing about, But he aint going to have control over areas of my life"

or they could mean

"Jesus is God in flesh, who came to the world, and died for my sins, and i am thankful because my goodness would never be enough, and in thankfulness i live in obedience , submitting the various areas of my life to his control"

or they could mean

"Jesus is the reincarnation of krishna (and elisha), a man who has reached cosmic consiousness, and become one with God, who in his incarnation 2000 years ago, came to teach people , by example to follow the path of love, so that we in time will pay off our bad karam by our good deads and eventually reach cosmic consciousness"

obviously those things are very different, even if dressed up in the same linguistics, which is why its very important in our dialogs to reveal the worldview behind our statements, or we will just go around in circles, argueing over the peripherals, rather than discussing and understanding the things that are teh core of who we are adn what we believe.

your post deserves a longer and more thourough reply than this though, and i hope to put the time to do that this week.

as for gen1:29-30
Yes i also believe that before the flood man did not eat animals (yet it was still so evil, that God brought the flood). it wasn't until after the flodo that man ate animals (or at least was what was permitted by God). This also makes it more interesting, that Abel (before he was killed by his vege brother cain) raised sheep, primarily to offer as a sacrifice to God.

as for mark 8:28-30 indicating that the disciples may have believed in reincarnation, because Jesus didn't correct them when they said that some said he was elijah... Just because he didn't correct them doesnt' really imply anything as that wasn't the focus of what Jesus was talking about, But even more importantly Elijah was one of the few (like enoch) who never died, but who were taken straight upto heaven without death.

but i'll end for now on a scripture that addresses Jesus's one off incarntation, as well as our own one off life on earth very clearly, as well as clearly the fact that we are saved by Christs bloodshed. One would really have to twist and mutiplate these words to take an alternative intepretation for it speaks for itself.(especially in the original greek)

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Hebrews 9
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

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I pray that those words are life giving to you. I can see that the spirit is drawing you, and i believe that God is opening doors that you may meet him and his grace is a way far beyond you have ever beforehand. I have been where you are before. I used to believe in a similar philosophy (i.e Christ was the reincarnation of elisha (and John the baptist of elijah etc) and many other such things, the material i read at that time was very very persuasive, and i think if i wanted i could persuade many christians to believe that way (which scares me actaully, especially since at the time i DID persuade many people). I have nothing against you, and do not hate you, and would be willing to be friends, even since we live in the same area get together and share a meal, maybe you could show me a really good vegetarian restruants in the seattle area, also i'd give you a ride to the christian game developers conference (if i am in the country at the time to go) etc. THere is only one thing that i will conflict with you on, and that is communication to others that what you mean as "christian" is orthodox (as in the meaning of the word, not the 'denomination').

sincerely in Christ,

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited April 02, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited April 02, 2006).]

Read klumsy's post again...

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klumsy
I believe that you are sincere, but i do believe (and i hope i am wrong) that you have been decieved by doctrines of demons

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I would like to point out the fact that he said "decieved by doctrines of demons".

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neighborlee
I saw 'demon' and sadly glanced over the part about ( I hope Im wrong ) so...lets begin where we left off.

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neighborlee is still under the impression that klumsy called him a demon??

read what klumsy said again...

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klumsy
I believe that you are sincere, but i do believe (and i hope i am wrong) that you have been decieved by doctrines of demons

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I don't mean to be rude or anything, if anyone wants me to remove this then please say so.

[This message has been edited by dartsman (edited April 02, 2006).]

Jesus isnt saying that peter is demon but Satan spoke through peter.

In Christ,
Jari.

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Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

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Originally posted by klumsy:
[B]Dear Neighourlee,
I am sorry that i seemed to communicate that you were a demon, I do not think you are a demon or anything, or even demon possessed, i was just saying that some of those doctrines are deceitful doctrines of demons as per the scriptures. ( and pretty clearly shown in scripture, with not much room for alternative interpretation), BUt i do not see you as a demon, or any worse of a sinner than I am, for i am a severe sinner, thankfully saved by the grace of God. I would also not have been so upfront, other than i felt some things needed to be brought to the surface, not for the sake of being right, or to contratict you, but for the sake of protecting some of the young impressionable people who hang here, so that they might not be decieved by some alluring doctrines. (not that you are trying to decieve anybody.), these sort of discussions are better in private, but this was already in the public arena. but i DO NOT think you are a DEMON, or even DEMON possessed.

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noble sentiments which I can understand ..I hold no grudge and would be glad of our friendship..

cheers
neighborlee

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one game at a time..
http://www.heartseed.org