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What language should I try next? – CPUFreak91

CPUFreak91

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Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
Hi guys. I'm directing this at the more experienced programmers.
I'm pretty good at python now and programming concepts so I've been looking into different languages.

Should I continue learning Java? Or try to pick up C#?

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base

``After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
I'm partial to C#, but Java is a language that's far from dead, and will probably be around for quite a while to come. Either one is good to learn, but it's (currently) easier to get a paying job with C# than with Java (though Java used to be the cash-cow).
ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
java is a great learning language, imo, teaching OOP and basic syntax.

but if you feel you know enough of java, I suggest trying c#, seems to be used alot

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
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CPUFreak91

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Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
but if you feel you know enough of java


I know how to print and read from the keyboard thats it.

I just don't know which might be the most productive. I'm leaning towards C# because I have never learned a non-interpeted language.

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base

``After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
quote:
I know how to print and read from the keyboard thats it.

haha, okay no. you don't know java. lol.
my suggestion is learn it. once you get OOP concepts somewhat down, move on to bigger and better fish.

I, however, am still stuck learning java because that's what my college teaches for lower CS courses. which reminds me, I have an java program due in a little bit...

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

CPUFreak91

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Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
once you get OOP concepts somewhat down

Python is an OOP language too. The only reason why I started to learn Java was the fact that I'd probably take a AP course on it. But there's lots of talk about them switching it to Python.

Thus my intrest in C#.

Keep on suggesting here

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base

``After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

[This message has been edited by CPUFreak91 (edited February 18, 2006).]

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
well, c++ is also OOP, arguably.
point was java is good for teaching oop,but it's not the only way. just my suggestion.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

CPUFreak91

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Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
java is good for teaching oop,but it's not the only way.

True.

Aaack! I might as well learn java! They're both ugly.
Or I could try regular C....

I think I'll stick with Java. Thanks guys!

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base

``After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

[This message has been edited by CPUFreak91 (edited February 18, 2006).]

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
the question is what do you want to do?

i'd personally go with C# 2.0 - grab a free visual studio 2005 express edition (and a sql server 2005 free edition as well).. and learn C# with all of its concepts, that go beyond oldschool OO, learn its xml abilities, learn tonnes of stuff, make visual components, make reusable libraries, make fun stuff, do managed direct3d if you want to play, play with sql server 2005, learn T-sql - very good if you want a job, plus lots of interest concepts.. then since youare into python, you can play with iron python mixing it with C# to give you the dynamic mixed with tranditional sort of stuff..also get MSH and use that new windows command shell, lots of fun

but in the end, its up to - what do you want to do..

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

CPUFreak91

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Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by klumsy:
the question is what do you want to do?


Learn a different language that is harder to learn but has a lot of power.


quote:
i'd personally go with C# 2.0 - grab a free visual studio 2005 express edition (and a sql server 2005 free edition as well).. and learn C# with all of its concepts, that go beyond oldschool OO


Ok.. in my case, I (already have the linux version of mono the OSS .NET) and I can get mySQL as well.[/B][/QUOTE]
Or do you not think that's a good idea?
C# looks just as ugly as Java. Am I wrong?

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base

``After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
i say C++... then when you get good at it you can help me out!! just kidding... lol... i would like to learn java too... sometime.... when i get C++ down... lol...

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kiwee

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Posts: 578
From: oxfordshire, england
Registered: 04-17-2004
(before I say anything, let me remind you that I am only an artist and conposer, and I can't code any programs...at all, this is all from watching my brother program. And may I add that I always get confused when he does it, and I am always amazed when he comes out with a plantry orbital simulation in blitz etc... )

The hardest thing to do in C++ (it seems) is GUI, because you need graphics libarys, etc... (I still don't understand what they are, even after the millionth time of my brother explaining them to me ) Java seems much simpler and easier structured. and you can add Java to websites.

(ok, there you go, my limited knowledge of programming has just been expressed in 1 word: Hard The rest of the above paragraph is nonsence and should be ignored. )

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firemaker103

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Posts: 643
From:
Registered: 07-13-2005
One word: BlitzMax
Just, awesome.

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"Be nice to the nerds because later on, you'll be working for them" - Bill Gates

[This message has been edited by firemaker103 (edited February 19, 2006).]

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
yah, but it's 80 bucks... lol... it's like ur ranting about how good it is... 'rant rant rant good stuff about BlitzMax' me: 'yah, but it's 80 bucks...' 'rant rant rant good stuff about BlitzMax' 'yah, but it's 80 bucks...' 5 mins later: 'YAH, BUT IT'S 80 BUCKS!!' lol!!
but Blitz is cool... and easy lol... just it's 80 bucks!!

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

[This message has been edited by buddboy (edited February 19, 2006).]

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
You think C# is an ugly language?

Work with object-oriented C++ for a while, and it will be an absolute joy for you to work with C#. C# is much cleaner than C++.

As far as C# vs. Java -- I think C# is nice because of its great built-in XML commenting system. Historically, I never commented my code very much or very well. However, the XML commenting in C# is beautiful, and really helped me comment my code more and better.

C and C++ is a good experience though -- it would be a great learning experience for you to learn how to do pointers and your own memory management in those languages (with malloc() and free() ). It's not always fun to learn that stuff, but it will make you appreciate things like automatic garbage collection (like they have in Java and C#) *so* much better.

But yeah, I would recommend your next language not be a foo-foo fad language, but C or C-derivative. This means C, C++, C#, or Java. All of them are great to learn, and if you're in the Linux world very much, it may help you to understand more about C and C++ (since 98% of your Linux environment is written in one of those languages).

Really, it's up to you, and if you intend to do this stuff seriously, it doesn't really matter that much which one you learn first, because you're going to have to learn them all eventually. C, C++, C#, Java, Perl, Python, PHP, etc. You'll do it all, so just start knockin' them down.

C and C++ are great for learning fundamentals, and you will appreciate so much more all that's done for you automagically in C# and Java.

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
hmm... how different is C# from C++?

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Tip: If you code in C++ use new and delete operators instead of C's malloc and free.

I'm currently learning / doing stuff in java because it's cross platform and applets run in a web browser. It's also great language in mobile programming.

Python is also great and one thing I like about python is that it seems to be easier to install in linux than java.
Another good thing about python is that writing apps in python is much faster than what it is in java or C# (at least for me) and doesnt "require" IDE because python scripts don't use project or make files.

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CPUFreak91

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Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by HanClinto:
You think C# is an ugly language?


I come from a QBASIC and Python background... YES IT THINK IT'S UGLY!

quote:
C and C++ are great for learning fundamentals, and you will appreciate so much more all that's done for you automagically in C# and Java.

Hmm, maybe I should replace C# with regular C!

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base

``After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

CPUFreak91

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Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by jari:
Python is also great and one thing I like about python is that it seems to be easier to install in linux than java.

I noticed that too with Ubuntu... although right now under Gentoo I have Blackdown's JDK and JRE.

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base

``After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
if you are going to be just running mono, you should rather go with java and say esclipse enviroment.. mono is great , and good for makign cross platform, but not the place to learn C#.. you can get visual stuido express for free if you want to do C#, but if you want to do it on linux, then you'c better just do java 5..

as for mysql... NO WAY... mysql is a very basic sql, without really good sql features.. its really good for dealing with a lot of data where there are not complex relationships, and you basically just have to get data in and out,and analyse it simply.. but not very good to learning sql in the context of a powerful language..

i do love mysql though.

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

CPUFreak91

Member

Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by klumsy:
mono is great , and good for makign cross platform, but not the place to learn C#.. you can get visual stuido express for free if you want to do C#, but if you want to do it on linux, then you'c better just do java 5.


Rats.

quote:
as for mysql... NO WAY... mysql is a very basic sql, without really good sql features.. its really good for dealing with a lot of data where there are not complex relationships, and you basically just have to get data in and out,and analyse it simply.. but not very good to learning sql in the context of a powerful language..

i do love mysql though.

Karl



Ok, thanks for the tip. I just thought sql was a database; I never knew there was so much involved inside them.

I have made up my mind... I'll try regular C. If I get too frustrated, I'll go back to Java.

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base

``After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

CPUFreak91

Member

Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by kiwee:
you need graphics libarys, etc... (I still don't understand what they are, even after the millionth time of my brother explaining them to me )

I may be a sucker, but.....

Libraries.......

In computer science, a library is a collection of subprograms used to develop software. Libraries are distinguished from executables in that they are not independent programs; rather, they are "helper" code that provides services to some other independent program. Today the vast majority of the code that executes in a typical application is located in the libraries it uses.

The simpelest explanation is:
A library is a file that contains only functions. Usually libraries contain no main code.

(All this off of define:library using google)

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base

``After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

[This message has been edited by CPUFreak91 (edited February 19, 2006).]

D-SIPL

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Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
I would go with C#... Java is horrid and really is nothing more then an interesting research project.

--D-SIPL

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vincent

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Posts: 129
From: Amersfoort, the Netherlands
Registered: 12-23-2002
quote:
Originally posted by D-SIPL:
I would go with C#... Java is horrid and really is nothing more then an interesting research project.

The creation of C#: On a monday morning Bill was finally looking at Java and thought: 'hey this actually is structred and well thought out, not like the VB crap we sell... lets make a rip-off, call it C# so the C people dig it (not telling them how much is looks like the dreaded Java, which they actually never really looked at, because its not C) and add useless features and bad ideas, like we always do here at Microsoft (think clippy), then we'll hide and secretly laugh at everyone using it, and patting ourselfs on the back saying how smart we are.'

CPUFreak91

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Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by vincent:
The creation of C#: On a monday morning Bill was finally looking at Java and thought: 'hey this actually is structred and well thought out, not like the VB crap we sell... lets make a rip-off, call it C# so the C people dig it (not telling them how much is looks like the dreaded Java, which they actually never really looked at, because its not C)

I got the java impression as soon as I looked at some code! So i've decided to do vanilla C. If I get frustrated, I'll go back to Java.

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base

``After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
This looks like a nice site for comparing java and C#:
http://www.javacamp.org/javavscsharp/

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Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

buddboy

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Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
lol funny vincent... i use C++ so i can laugh at that... i think... lol..

------------------
In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
quote:

The creation of C#: On a monday morning Bill was finally looking at Java and thought: 'hey this actually is structred and well thought out, not like the VB crap we sell... lets make a rip-off, call it C# so the C people dig it (not telling them how much is looks like the dreaded Java, which they actually never really looked at, because its not C) and add useless features and bad ideas, like we always do here at Microsoft (think clippy), then we'll hide and secretly laugh at everyone using it, and patting ourselfs on the back saying how smart we are.'

nice story , and there are some true elements in it to as how some MS stuff is, but this is different. you gotta know the architect of C#.. his name is anders, and he was the creator of turbo pascal, as well as delphi, and introdeuced many of the modern programming concepts to this world, java was initially a virtual machine, implementing delphi programming concepts, with a VM at first, and in fact borland and its legacy of dephi consulted alot with sun, in improving java terribly, like javabeans and much much more.
but then anders went and worked at microsoft, and created C#.. which in many ways in Delphi on a Vm, with C syntax done right.. C# did inherit alot of good stuff from the legacy of both delphi and java, and the good thing about not being the first, is you can learn from bot hthe sucesses and mistakes of the first, and you got flexibility because you don't have to have this difficult thing to do called "backwards compatibility", so C# is heads over sholders above Java (though java is great, and the biggest thing is its prevalence and acceptance in many different platforms and industries.. much like C, a good and a bad thing).. but C# is solidly architected with things that add much value, and preform much better.. the interesting thing is now C# is leading java.. Many of Java 5's features and improvments in JIT are a direct copy from C#, but i don't mind, because it makes java better, and both of these products have legacy and history in each other, and in their common ancestors, but more importantly in the mind of the architect of most of the concepts - Anders.

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

vincent

Member

Posts: 129
From: Amersfoort, the Netherlands
Registered: 12-23-2002
Well, I think C# really lost its head in 'handy features'. Though ofcourse people developing with Microsoft stuff are high on handy features because they're used to it, it kinda clutters the language... making it eventually harder to scale and debug. I must say that the 'more features' thing is happening to Java too, and that doesn't nessesarly make it a good thing. Java used to be easy to learn, but now with annotations and generics its much harder to master. Things like unsafe code and goto's should really not be part of a serious language. There are just too many compromises.

Before you'll ask, I'll admit it: I don't dig microsoft. They have too much tendencies I assoicate with evil, like stealing/taking an good idea, perverting it, then selling it like the real thing.

CPUFreak91

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Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by vincent:
Before you'll ask, I'll admit it: I don't dig microsoft. They have too much tendencies I assoicate with evil, like stealing/taking an good idea, perverting it, then selling it like the real thing.

I totaly agree.

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base

``After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

bennythebear

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Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
too many people use microsoft to swtich to something else, at least as far as the network administrator point of view. if i was the network admin somewhere i would use windows 2000 pro/xp pro, and 2000 server/2003 server(ease of use, and easier to get trained people, and cheaper labour), which would mean anything we needed developed would have to be developed for windows...i would rather go with linux on everything but it's hard enough to find people who know how to use windows ...anyway, i'm no coder, and i haven't finished college yet so i'm not a network administrator yet...anyway, my $.02

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CPUFreak91

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Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by bennythebear:
i would rather go with linux on everything but it's hard enough to find people who know how to use windows ...anyway, i'm no coder, and i haven't finished college yet so i'm not a network administrator yet...anyway, my $.02

The only proprietary OS I can stand os OS X If windows is hidden by a fullscreen game, I'm a little content.


Ontopic: I've chosen and begun to learn C++, wish me luck

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base

``After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

Seven7
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Posts: 50
From: USA
Registered: 03-16-2005

Assembly Language....it builds character!
P-Code.... it builds a lifetime of friends.

[This message has been edited by seven7 (edited February 24, 2006).]

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
Personally, I would suggest that you learn the basics of C, then C++. After you master C++, you can learn enough to use C# or Java in a weekend or two.

C++ is the language that 99% of all XBOX, PS2, GameCube, and high-performance PC games are written in. It's a little more work than C#, since it doesn't have built-in garbage collection but it is _way_ faster. I use C++, C#, and Java at my job. Java is hands-down the slowest--it can reduce a high-performance computing machine into a slow, unresponsive pocket calculator. C# is a bit faster, but I wouldn't use it for anything time-critical. C++ code runs at warp-speed on modern computers. Heck, it runs at warp-speed on 486's.

Just my two-cents.

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+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

Realm Master

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Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
C++ rules. Im going to keep learning that one.

*Below is what i said before... after reading the above post... hahaha*
well, i'm saying Java, because thats my next step. Easier for me because i don't need GFX libraries and stuff (i WAS learning C++, i know it, but just not the gfx libraries!). Java is also fully compatable with all platforms, something i've always admired. Of course, once your good enough in one language.... START ON ANOTHER ONE! (i just need a little push) So once your good enough in Java, its on to C#! (i want to learn C++ personally, much more used in videogames than C# is ATM...)


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yeah, im a little crazy

Blessed are those who suffer for doing what is right.
The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.-Matthew 5:10

PM ME YOUR DESCRIPTION OF ME! ILL PUT IT HERE!

Here's all the comments!

[This message has been edited by Realm Master (edited February 24, 2006).]

Seven7
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Posts: 50
From: USA
Registered: 03-16-2005
My .2 cents,

I would like to attack this question because it's a good question, but I'm
afraid that my post would probably take up 1 or 2 gigs if disk space.
I will try and keep it brief.

I do lecturing at collages/universities and high schools on game design and
I get this type of questions all the time. I get an individual that stands
up and asks: "What language should I learn and should I be good at it?".
I generally respond: "English" and "Yes". After a few laughs from the
student body and a dull and confused look from the student.

OK, so that's not a direct answer, so let me be clear.
Anybody can learn the syntax of a language, but what matters the most is
the underlining philosophy of the language. WHY did they make the language
the way it is? (rhetorical question) Here's a simple example: FORTRAN
structures its arrays differently than C/C++, WHY did they decide to do
that? Does that mean you need to learn FORTRAN then C/C++ to learn the
differences? Nope!

To say the "A" language is better than "B" language is... well... dumb!
There is no great and powerful language that is the end of all languages.
Each have their pros and cons. What it boils down to is that each language
has its own specific attributes for a specific project. Is COBOL better
than C++". Nope! Is COBOL better for "Mr. Fancy Pants graphics"? Yep!
"Is COBOL better for printing spreadsheets than C++"?, maybe.

My advice is that you learn C/C++/C#, learn Visual Basic, learn Java, learn
Jabba the Hut scripting, (Please don't Google this, there's no such thing.)
Just don't limit your self to one language only. I would rather hire
someone that is multi-lingual and 'weak' in all of them, than hiring
someone who is an expert in one language only. I like what klumsy said:
"learn its xml abilities". What caught my eye was the word "abilities".
This is critical! Each language has its pros and cons, just as I pointed
out earlier. Just dont limit your self to one language. Keep also in mind
that you don't need to be an expert! Just get a tast for all of them.

Special Note: If you want to lean OOP (Object Oriented Programming) a
single language is not going to teach you much. It will only teachs you the
syntax of a language! If you what to learn OOP, learn UML (Univeral
Modeling Language). All OOL (Object orientated languages) are built around
this model. UML deals with subjects such as "Polymorphism",
"Inheritance", "Abstraction", etc. and all those wounderfull and fun
topics associated with OOP. If you understand UML, you will have a very
easy time going from one laguage to another and your learning will be much
easier! C++ implements UML and so does Java, making a transition from C++
to Java will be a breeze.

Comments:

Seventh45:

quote:
"Java is hands-down the slowest--it can reduce a
high-performance computing machine into a slow..."

I have to laught at this because I see people wanting to write high end
graphic games. I keep telling them that its not a good idea. Do they
listen?


kiwee:

quote:
The hardest thing to do in C++ (it seems) is GUI, because
you need graphics libarys, etc... (I still don't understand what they are,
even after the millionth time of my brother explaining them to me)

Everyone faces this problem at some point. Don't beat your head over it.


CPUFreak91:

quote:
I come from a QBASIC...

Me too and I weep for you! Boy, where those the days!

[This message has been edited by seven7 (edited February 24, 2006).]

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
dude... boy did you go ballistic!! lol... but he said what language should he do next! lol... he had already learned one language (Python) and wants to do another... (which you said was good!!) and needs to know which one to do next!! lol... i see some of what you were saying those... lol about the QBASIC... i'm taking a class in that next year.. lol... that and VB..

------------------
In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
Basically, if you're looking for the the next programming language/syntax to learn, it seems the consensus is that the most important, useful and widely used programming languages are object oriented descendents of C. These languages are C++, Java, and C#. If you learn one, you can learn them all. What may also be useful is to learn some important libraries/API's . The Java API, while convoluted and poorly designed, does provide OS independent access to a wide array of functionality. The .NET library created by Microsoft is much better organized than Java's API, but it only works on Windows. C# was designed to work with the .NET library, but you can access it with Visual Basic or "managed" C++. C# (without the .NET library) is available on multiple platforms.

Steve

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