Help Wanted

Crash course – personwithideas

personwithideas

Member

Posts: 32
From: First home: Heaven!!
Registered: 08-26-2004
Does anyone know any lanuages that can be learnt fairly quickly and is powerful enough to use graphics and sound in a 2d or 3d rts and use logical and maths to move ai and player commands? Possible multiplay as well. Excel is my only coding experiance but no one seems to want to join up so I'll do coding myself (team required has details)

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Why hasn't someone done this before?

Imsold4christ

Member

Posts: 305
From: Gresham, OR, US
Registered: 01-20-2001
Wake up dude. Good games are not written easily. Powerful languages == difficult to learn. Easy languages make for weak games that nobody will appreciate except perhaps a few family members and friends. Many people join this forum with dreams of making their own Christian game, all of them needing team members and most of them having either zero or very little experience making games themselves. Those people almost never get any takers. Those who do show interest usually have about as much experience as the person asking for help.

If you're serious about bringing your idea to life, you're going to Heh, wake up dude. Good games are not written easily. Powerful languages == difficult to learn. Easy languages make for weak games that nobody will appreciate except perhaps a few family members and friends. Many people join this forum with dreams of making their own Christian game, all of them needing team members and most of them having either zero or very little experience making games themselves. Those people almost never get any takers. need to put a tremendous amount of time, dedication and effort into it. Learn quality computer languages like Java or C/C++. Once you've become competent in a good language, people will see that you're actually worth working with, and you'll finally get team members.

Everyone will tell you this: don't try to tackle a huge project without any experience. Start small. Think of short, fun, simple projects that you can do that will help you learn. Many suggest that you try making clones of classic games such as pac man, pong, asteroids, breakout, etc. These are great projects for people that are beginners with a computer language.

I recommend that you start with Java, then move on to C++ once you've become more competent, which, believe me, won't be for a long time. Java is considered to be a great language for people who've never coded before, because it's easier to learn than stuff like C/C++. Java is still popular too. Lots of people use it to develop programs for their business and such.

If you're not serious about making your dream come true (too much work!) and just want to have some fun making a small, worthless game that only you will enjoy, try things like RPGmaker, GameMaker, Sphere, BlitzBasic, etc.

Frankly,
†Caleb†

PS: Before the mob lynches me for saying BlitzBasic is a lame language, let me add a disclaimer: BlitzBasic is great for easily making small, arcade-style games, but it's not a professional language, and you won't be able to use it to progress to a large-scale project such as the one you were speaking of in your other thread.

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"True friendship is not characterized by the absence of conflict, but by the ability to resolve conflict."

[This message has been edited by imsold4christ (edited September 08, 2004).]

PointOfLight

Member

Posts: 60
From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 11-26-2001
You seem to know an awful lot about game development, Caleb. You also seem to know everything about what's fun to play. It's just too bad that you're wrong about some of it. I have played games in Game Maker that were fun. I have played games in Blitz Basic that were fun. And yes, I've even played games written in RPGMaker that were fun. I have also played games in RPGMaker that were certainly not "small, worthless" games by any means.

Some people put a lot of time and effort into their games, no matter what platform they use. It's amazing what people can accomplish when they take the time to get to know the software they are using. Sure, the packages you listed all have their limitations, and most of them would probably be of no use to personwithideas, but that's no reason to bash them. He just needs to find what's right for him and work with that tool.

Personally, I've been a developer for 12 years now, and I am actually looking into Game Maker for some 2D game development. Does that mean my products will suck and only be fun for me? Not at all. It just means that I've got better things to do than take the time to write all the internals of an engine BEFORE I write the game itself. And, if it turns out I can't do everything I want to in Game Maker, I will either figure out how to do it with extensions, or move on to something else. That's the nature of development.

Personwithideas, most modern languages are powerful enough to do what you want, as long as you keep it in the realm of 2D. Once you decide to transition to 3D, I would suggest C / C++ (and in all reality, probably modding an existing engine rather than trying to build your own). If you really want to start from scratch, learn and language, and develop a game of your magnitude, you're probably biting off more than you can chew (trust me, I've been there).

If you don't want to use a prefab package like Game Maker, I would suggest starting with Visual Basic (assuming you are targeting Windows). This is the easiest "popular" Windows development tool, and contrary to what many will say, can definitely be used to develop 2D games via DirectX. In fact, there are several libraries for use with VB that aid in the development of 2D games.

However, I would not focus on games at first. Write a couple of simple applications that load and save data from a file, or something like that. Just get used to programming first.

Once you've done that, write a simple game. Something like Frogger or Space Invaders. Not something to sell, but rather something that will help you get used to programming a game. Pick something you are familiar with, because that way you'll know if the end result is what you were looking for or not.

Once you are successful with that, you can move on to bigger projects. Unfortunately, you'll probably be spending a good year or so on the first steps. It's not an easy road, but one well worth it when you get there (I'll let you know when I do).

Caleb, can you please list all the games that you have worked on, and what language(s) you wrote them in? I'd really like to play them and see how fun they are. Thanks.

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Eric Pankoke
http://www.polsoftware.com

PastorRob

Member

Posts: 22
From: New Glasgow
Registered: 09-02-2004
Actually, BlitzBasic is quite good if you can use it properly, it does have some very nice capabilities, it can create a smooth 3d multiplayer game easily.

Though I would serioulsy recommended C++, Visual Basic, Delphi, or Java is you are going to create a game. You can also find Engines for those languages to make it a bit easier! VB.NET , Delphi with .NET is great as well

in Christ
Rob

personwithideas

Member

Posts: 32
From: First home: Heaven!!
Registered: 08-26-2004
I'm thinking darkbasic as matter of fact. I'm not totally ignorant, I never intended to go head long into it. Excel code might be my only experiance but thats enough to tell anyone that rushing into a lanuage requires bloody mindedness and slowly, slowly. I could go on but I'm going to.

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Why hasn't someone done this before?

PastorRob

Member

Posts: 22
From: New Glasgow
Registered: 09-02-2004
If your wanting 2d do try VB or Delphi you wont be disappointed.
They can also be used for 3d using DirectX or TrueVision
PointOfLight

Member

Posts: 60
From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 11-26-2001
Good luck whatever you choose! I've looked at Dark Basic but never really used it. I played with BlitzBasic a little and decided I didn't like a lot of the syntax (such things as how it handled objects and "pointers" never felt quite right to me). Currently I'm exploring Game Maker, but I feel that GM is more for maze / platform games than an RTS style game.

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Eric Pankoke
http://www.polsoftware.com

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
Yeah, GameMaker doesn't seem to handle a lot of objects well enough to make an RTS. RTSs tend to have a lot of objects on the screen at the same time.

Other game types it handles OK.

Java is a good place to start learning. Do 2D first, 3D is harder to work with.

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Reasoning with non-believers without encouraging them to read the Bible, I have found, is quite useless. God's word convinces - not our own reason.
--CobraA1

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Writing object code and GUI.

[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited September 08, 2004).]

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
Hiya. I've been programming in C++ for about 7 years, but I must say that Blitz3D is very capable of just about whatever type of game that you want to design. I use it sometimes for small games and prototypes. It's good to learn if you're new to 3D programming. It breaks you in a lot easier than DX and OpenGL do.

Check out the gallery
http://www.blitzbasic.com/gallery/gallery.php?gallery=hr

With that said, if you want a future career in programming or game dev. then it will definatley be good for you to learn C++. But if you're new and just want to make an indie game with your team or solo, then I'd go with Blitz3D, it's way easier and cuts down dev. time tremendously.

Take Care!

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3rd Day Studios

"So many laughing at Jesus,"
"Well the funniest thing that He's done,"
"Is love this poor stubborn rebellious world,"
"While the hate for Him just goes on."

personwithideas

Member

Posts: 32
From: First home: Heaven!!
Registered: 08-26-2004
It seems I've rushed into this a bit doesn't it? Anyway I played with a trial version of db and that seems to work all right. Were can I get Java from?

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Why hasn't someone done this before?

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
Get the Java SDK from
http://java.sun.com/

I use the NetBeans for my IDE when programming Java
http://www.netbeans.org/downloads/index.html

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Reasoning with non-believers without encouraging them to read the Bible, I have found, is quite useless. God's word convinces - not our own reason.
--CobraA1

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Writing object code and GUI.

personwithideas

Member

Posts: 32
From: First home: Heaven!!
Registered: 08-26-2004
Downloading a trial of blitz3d as I type. Does anyone know how much $60 is in sterling?

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Why hasn't someone done this before?

PointOfLight

Member

Posts: 60
From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 11-26-2001
Being not quite a currency expert, I don't even know what a sterling is. But, maybe this will help: http://www.xe.com/ucc/.

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Eric Pankoke
http://www.polsoftware.com

crazyishone

Member

Posts: 1685
From:
Registered: 08-25-2004
sterling is pounds,right (as in british people muneez)

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It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Abe Lincoln

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
two seperate issues - learning programming, and game programming and design
well first of all with learning programming

there is getting the mind of a programmer, and learning some programming concepts,
the first of these concepts is easiest learnt in an EASY language, that is friendly to programmer.. alot of language even VB can be used for this, however to learn certian other important concepts you'll need another language like C++,C#,java, delphi etc.. but anyway the goal is to learn the concepts of programming , as interestingly and painlessly as possible without wasting alot of time.. once you get the 'mind of a programmer', you can teach yourself almost any language..

the second is game programing, or graphics programming, and how that interacts with general game design..

i'd suggest you start both areas concurrently..
i'd downlaod the trial of this
http://www.conitec.com/a4info.htm

its perfect game engine for a game with a limited team, plus a good learning platform with a huge community and learning resources and examples

it allows you to learn game making without coding, (like just making levels, and point and click of simple game 'design' but still working out the key 'higher level' ingredients of a 3d game.. with most of the work already done for you.. then you can progress on learning its C-style script language (i'm not aware how good its development enviroment is)
then you can progress learning how to write extentions for powerful stuff in C++..

so on that hand you are learning game making from the TOP level, down.. slowly doing more and more..

but also you want to really be able to understand programming concepts so you can write the above code better, and understand more whats goign on and not stabbing in the dark..

so maybe get a good free online tutorial of say java or C#, that starts at the basics and work away at that..

and eventually your two coding split personalities will meet up in the middle and you will have passed gamemaking 101 as well as programming 101

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

d000hg
Member

Posts: 144
From: Durham, UK
Registered: 07-27-2004
I think I'd recommend a .NET language rather than Java. C#.NET is kindof similar to Java I think and visual basic.NET is obviously a bit like basic. The thing is in .NET you can write different bits in different languages as you wish and they fit together fine. .NET also allows you to use DirectX for fast 2D/3D graphics, sound and input control in an easier fashion than through normal C++ (you can also use C++.NET). Basically it's a professional quality language that'll let you do everything you could in C++ with minimal performance differences (way,way faster than Java) with a much quicker learning time and a much quicker development time too.
Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
i agree
i love C#, but i am biased, i live and breathe it in my worklife, while only have touched java a few times

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
quote:

I think I'd recommend a .NET language rather than Java.

I personally like Java, it's not very different than C#, I don't see either as superior, just different.

quote:

The thing is in .NET you can write different bits in different languages as you wish and they fit together fine.

Which won't be useful if he works in an non-.NET environment in the future, not to mention having several languages in the same project can be confusing and might even lead to poor programming.

quote:

with minimal performance differences (way,way faster than Java)

Have you tried the latest JVM from Sun? Performance isn't an issue unless you're using the old, slow, klunky Microsoft JVM.

quote:

with a much quicker learning time and a much quicker development time too.

I beg to differ - I learned Java very quickly. By the way, you can develop Java with RAD tools just like Visual Basic. Sorry, I disagree.

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Reasoning with non-believers without encouraging them to read the Bible, I have found, is quite useless. God's word convinces - not our own reason.
--CobraA1

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Writing object code and GUI.

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
Its true that java is much much much more portable language,
as for preformance though, if you profile the latest CLR, verses latest sun java VM, with the same algorithms (each optomised for dotnet, or for java respectedly), the CLR runs MUCH faster,
of course for average tasks on modern machines java runs perfectly fast enough. (but for me coming from an otpomise to the last clock cycle in assembler back ground, javas VM is not much more than a joke to me as far as preformance goes.)
latest CLR compiled code, runs only about 20% slower than the same algorithm in native msvc++ optomised code (which is a pretty good code optomiser.
there are a bunch of classes in dotnet framework though that i feel are very inferior as far as preformance, i'm not happy at all with the preformance of winforms, (or GDI+ as a whole i suppose), and the XML classes are painfully slow..

and yep there are some nice JAVA ide's for rad development, but last time checked java UI frameworks (swing, AWT) where little more than a bad designed joke

but anyway lets not confuse this guy.. either way the languages are quite similar - C# is just one generation advanced (since it had the liberty of learning (and copying) all the successes of java, while learning from the bad aspects and avoiding them (which sun can't do due to the need for backwards compatibility)

there probably is more free tutorials for learning java given its longer history, but i think if he wants to get into 3d programming on windows platform , C# would be a better choice.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

AmazingJas

Member

Posts: 437
From: Sydney, NSW, AUSTRALIA
Registered: 04-03-2003
quote:
Originally posted by imsold4christ:
Easy languages make for weak games that nobody will appreciate except perhaps a few family members and friends....

...If you're [b]not serious about making your dream come true (too much work!) and just want to have some fun making a small, worthless game that only you will enjoy, try things like RPGmaker, GameMaker, Sphere, BlitzBasic, etc.

[/B]


Whoooaa, simmer down son. I don't want to offend, but that sounds awfully pretentious. Gamemaker and Blitz are excellent starting points and I'll wager that they give people an excellent introduction to programming. Better to start there, where at least producing something is more likely and is better than getting lost in the complexity of C and giving up.
As to the quality of games produced, I think that's more about attitude and situation than platform capabilities. Get a team of decent programmers/gfx/sound gurus together and I have no doubt that commercial quality is possible, its just a matter of fact that most blitz/gamemaker programmers don't usually work in well resourced teams. Admitedly, you won't make a FPS game to the same 3D graphical detail of something like Farcry, but if you take the 3D blinders off there's plenty of scope for decent gamemaking.
Anyway, here's a couple of screenshots of commercial quality games made with Blitz, which most people who actually buy/play them think are somewhat more than 'worthless'.


Peace

Personwithideas, good to see you're catching the bug and don't be afraid to give these platforms a look. I've always thought that Gamemaker would be perfect for a 2D Zelda-type RPG.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
and freeware made with RPGMaker and Game Maker can do pretty well.
judge not the engine, but the one who uses it. lol

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Soterion Studios

PointOfLight

Member

Posts: 60
From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 11-26-2001
AmazingJas, what two games are those pictures from? They both look familiar, but I can't quite place them.

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Eric Pankoke
http://www.polsoftware.com

bennythebear

Member

Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
that second screenshot looks like clay animation, kind of cool actually. i've never seen anything with that kind of graphics on a game, not that i can recall anyway.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

AmazingJas

Member

Posts: 437
From: Sydney, NSW, AUSTRALIA
Registered: 04-03-2003
They are called Best Friends and Platypus and are available from www.retro64.com

Platypus is quite unique, you're right about the claymation! They modelled everything from clay!

d000hg
Member

Posts: 144
From: Durham, UK
Registered: 07-27-2004
Those are pretty screenshots - I'm sure Blitz/GameMaker and the like are quite capable of 2D games though as I've never used them I couldn't comment really. Do you get to be completely free, or have a kind of game theme provided for you to flesh out?

My points about .NET - the speed issue I stand by. The learning rate I was referring to things like C++ which don't have garbage collection etc and do have pointers etc. I'd put C# on a par with Java for learning and development speed. But my main plus for a game was that .NET makes using DirectX easier than C++. That makes it probably the easiest platform to make a full-featured game with 3d etc. You probably don't want to leap straight into a big langauge and DX though, so pretty much anything would be fine. I'd recommend whatever gives you fastest experience to make some sort of output onto the screen where you don't have to write image loaders or even link to nasty libraries. But I'd say to leave such a language as fast as possible.

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
Those are pretty screenshots - I'm sure Blitz/GameMaker and the like are quite capable of 2D games though as I've never used them I couldn't comment really. Do you get to be completely free, or have a kind of game theme provided for you to flesh out?


I don't know much about GameMaker, but Blitz3D is a "3D Programming Language". No game themes provided, just pure coding. It's sort of like a DX7 wrapper but with it's own IDE and compiler. For example, this is how easy it is to load a character and have him animate and move around a level.

---------------------------------------
cam = CreateCamera()
player = LoadAnimMesh("player.x")
level = LoadMesh("level.x")

Animate(player,1)

While Not Keydown(1)
If Keydown(203) then TurnEntity(player,0,2,0)
If Keydown(205) then TurnEntity(player,0,-2,0)
If Keydown(200) then MoveEntity(player,0,0,1)
If Keydown(208) then MoveEntity(player,0,0,-1)

UpdateWorld()
RenderWorld()
Flip
Wend

ClearWorld()
End
---------------------------------------

instead of creating your own functions in C++ that do the same thing. This is why I say it's great for beginners who want to write 3D games quickly and easily. But still, I've seen professionals who use it and make some great games. I've even seen some that are on par with some PS2 and XBox games.

P.S. Sorry hehe, but when a product is this good it's kinda hard not to promote it.


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3rd Day Studios

"So many laughing at Jesus,"
"Well the funniest thing that He's done,"
"Is love this poor stubborn rebellious world,"
"While the hate for Him just goes on."

PointOfLight

Member

Posts: 60
From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 11-26-2001
Game Maker is a "start from scratch" product as well, though I don't believe you can do "real" 3D games in v5.x (rumors abound that v6.x will support 3D, though). For 2D games it's fun, and there are plenty of examples of what to do, plus a community that will help when the answers aren't readily available. It actually supports drag-and-drop design, but you can also put code behind everything if you want to in order to customize it. It may not do everything in the 2D world, but for $18 USD, it's a nice program (you can actually use it for free, but I believe you have to pay the $18 in order to sell anything you make with it).

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Eric Pankoke
http://www.polsoftware.com

d000hg
Member

Posts: 144
From: Durham, UK
Registered: 07-27-2004
I'd not thought of that - you can write effectively a simple scripting langauge bound to DirectX which gives you a lot of graphics power for very little work. For a 3D world even a very slow langauge using D3D is fine since all the 3D gets done on the GPU.

That's sort of how many real games work - the core engine is in C++ and then the game itself uses some scripting system which the engine reads and implements. So in effect these products are a fairly sophisticated scripting langauge for an engine?

[This message has been edited by d000hg (edited September 15, 2004).]

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
d00hg you are exactly right
alot of games use script engines for most things, even back in the days people made their own C script compilers (was doom/quake like that)
i scripting languge perfect for embedding in an engine that i use (and quite a few commerical games use it) is called LUA, www.lua.org , i think there is a cool script language called gamemonkey or something..
C# actually is powerful as a script language (since its fast, and compilable on the fly..
in the directx9c samples they have a C++ program, which allows you to write a script in C# for moving things around etc.. another advantaging of using C#, is the build in security, you can for example allow anybody to write a C# "script", but your "host" will not give the script the rights to use the file system, or other such subsystems, forcing the script to run in a safe little box.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

AmazingJas

Member

Posts: 437
From: Sydney, NSW, AUSTRALIA
Registered: 04-03-2003
Gamemaker is similar in design to the concept of the old Klik n Play, Click n Create and MultiMedia Fusion: On the surface anyway. It has a complex and fully featured scripting language underneath for you to graduate to once you've mastered the basics.

Concerning 3D, the latest version of Gamemaker, 6.0, uses Direct3D so while it will primarily be for 2D gamestyles, the engine is now 3D and can be used for 3D games. You can try the beta version of 6.0 from the official site, though unless you are already a registered user, you won't be able to take advantage of any of the 3D specific functions.

goop2

Member

Posts: 1059
From:
Registered: 06-30-2004
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
and freeware made with RPGMaker and Game Maker can do pretty well.
judge not the engine, but the one who uses it. lol


In my opinion RPGMaker sux but game maker is realy good. Although I still need help implementing .... EVERYTHING into Game maker it is better than RPGMaker because it comes with many more possibilities. In RPGMaker You MUST have the program to play the game, in Game maker you can make a game.EXE. In RPGMaker you can make bad looking RPGs with few options, in Game maker you can make nearly any game with all kinds of possabilities.

Just wanted to put in my opinion.

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"Democrats stink"

PointOfLight

Member

Posts: 60
From: Indiana, USA
Registered: 11-26-2001
In all fairness to RPGMaker, it was not only made for a certain type of game (RPG), but it was also made for a certain style of game (old Final Fantasy). And for that, it does really well. There have been several RPGMaker games I've played that were very well done. As mentioned before, it's not just about the engine, but about the users.

Game Maker, on the other hand, is designed for 2D games, but not for a specific type of game. And once again, it does well what it was designed for. This is currently my choice of toys for designing 2D games on the PC, and so far I'm pretty impressed with the capabilities (especially for the $18 it cost to register). And, if you need something the software doesn't do, pay the registration fee and extend the functionality yourself with DLLs. This is a nice feature that very many construction kits don't support.

Another perfect example of the "engine vs. user" philosophy is the "click" community (The Games Factory, Klick & Play, Multimedia Fusion). 95% of the games turned out with these products is pure junk. However, you get the right artist and someone who actually understands how to use the product, and you can make a great product, even with the limited capabilities of the system. Some of my favorite platform games come from the click community.

In the end, it all boils down to finding what you're comfortable with and using it. As long as you're having fun developing the game, it doesn't matter what you're doing it in.

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Eric Pankoke
http://www.polsoftware.com