General Discussions

A CCN Project – Ereon

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Howdy folks. I've had my head buried in books, drawings, and Python source code up to my ears the last couple of months so I haven't been on much, but I've been mulling over some ideas that I had after some discussions with Mack a few months ago. According to what I've gathered within the scope of my limited perception, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the Christian Game Design industry is in trouble. Brilliant supposition? Probably not. However, the knowledge of this, which came as a rather surprising revelation at the time, has gotten my fur riled a bit. I don't think any of you really know me exceptionally well on a personality level (with a few possible exceptions) but I'm not the type to sit down and take a beating to hide my head when there's a problem. As such, I've been mulling over in my head how to do my part to help reverse the current market trend in Christian Designed games.

Here's something that I'd like to propose to the community. Full blown, epic sized projects are outside of the reach of many of us on this forum, even if we did band together and had the resources required to accomplish one. However, as two rather successful Speedgame competitions in the last two years have shown, the people in this community have some chops when it comes to simple, fun games that are easily accessible as well as doable within a decently short amount of time. As such, I would like to propose a project. More exactly, a compilation CD of small games created by individuals, teams, and studios, to be distributed around areas of the US as they become accessible. Here in Ohio we have something called the Southern Ohio Ministry Association, a group of which are pastor is founding member of. One thing that he's discussed is the concept of taking social "mountains", places that direct effect the sociological climate of our world. One of these, and one that in many ways has remained rather unchallenged, is entertainment. I think that I can garner his support to gain access to excellent quality CD burning and labeling equipment to distribute our finished project, and possible collaborate with other people around the nation from CCN who might have similar opportunities. The basic idea would be to take stacks of these compilation CDs and see if any neighboring businesses (primarily the ones often visited by teenagers and young adults when possible) as well as neighboring church youth groups would be willing to simple place them on their counters as a free handout. The games contained there-in would have full credit given to their developers/studios as well as information on CCN and any other entities that you guys think would be benefited by a little market infiltration. The basic goal is to try and punch a few holes in the market using low level, concentrated marketing with whatever resources we have at our disposal.

The games would have to be of excellent, polished quality, be preferably of quick the quick, pick-up-and-play casual variety, and most importantly, be fun. It will require work and dedication, but it will also allow you the opportunity to get your name and your work out, and help further the industry in a meaningful way by showing our target market exactly what we're capable of even in the independant facets of our industry. I haven't verified the viability of getting distribution equipment here yet, and right now nothing is set in stone or in motion at all. I'd like your input first. What do you think, would you be willing to contribute, do you think this is the time to do something like this and do you think that it has potential to be effective in a position manner? I'd like to open this topic for discussion and see what your takes on it are.

Ereon

------------------

David Lancaster

Member

Posts: 276
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 05-22-2006
you need: motivation + good leadership + prayer + Clint Herron

my

arissa_nightblade

Member

Posts: 70
From:
Registered: 02-10-2007
As well as a game idea!

------------------

MastaLlama

Member

Posts: 671
From: Houston, TX USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by David Lancaster:
you need: motivation + good leadership + prayer + Clint Herron

my


Clint Herron is good leadership! That's a tried and true method there!

charlie

Member

Posts: 26
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: 08-19-2007
Great topic! Someday I'm going sit down and write a paper on the issue of what makes a game Christian, and what purpose Christian games have. There are a lot of thoughts on this out there, and a lot of interesting little points it'd be nice to see compiled together.

For this proposal here, I'd want to start right off by asking what would be the primary purpose of these titles? What you really would want to achieve by them with heavily dictate what sort of design is needed. Are you trying to make games that get people saved, or just teach Christian principles, or just show that Christians can have fun too? Are you trying to reach the hardcore gamer, or just the casual gamer? (Hugely different demographics there.) Who do you want this to reach, and what is it going to do for them?

If I were to throw out a challenge for Christian game designers (and maybe a topic for next year's speed competition) it would be to design games with Christian gameplay mechanics. Lots of games label themselves "Christian" due to their content, but that's hardly valid. That's like someone claiming their business is "Christian" because they put a fish sticker on their business card. I'd like to see more designs that focus on creating "Christian" mechanics as opposed to trimmings. We'd be far more likely to call a business "Christian" if its work was caring for the poor and sharing the gospel with them, regardless of what pictures they put on their business cards.

The fascinating thing that we'll discover pretty quick if is that the principles that we'd find most intrinsically "Christian" (patience, death-to-self, humility, temporal loss for eternal gain, etc.) are often the most opposed to the core principles we find "fun" in games (self pride, greed, conquering at others expense, instant gratification, etc.) That’s not to say there is no overlap – just that we need to be really creative, introspective and honest with ourselves about what we enjoy in games, and what is worth enjoying in games, and how to communicate those things in a game.
Sorry, that’s a bit of a tangent from your original proposal. I just wanted to throw that out there as one idea of a way to do something a little different in our market. I’d love to hear what other people have to say too, but I think first we need to agree on what we really want to accomplish with these titles.

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited October 29, 2007).]

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
I vote a platformer be our first game.

And if stuff is devisive, we drop our instistances and just get 'er done.

Since Mack is thinking about distribution, then he should have a say, and Clint, too. They should be the final say.

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
charlie:
What I'm suggesting is essentially a compilation of games made by Christians, not necessarily those are contain overtly "Christian" content just for the sake of the content itself. I've always been an advocate of the concept that if your relationship with God is right then whatever you do is going to be Christian (Christ following/Christ like) by very definition. To use your business card example, I don't think that a business has to go out of its way it do "Christian" things if the owner's heart is Christ like. The Christian actions take care of themselves, because out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks (and the hands do). If you make a game and try to shove all the Christian "mechanics" into it it will turn out very bad because all you're doing is pushing a message. For this compilation I want to see a large amount of games from Christian hearts created, not games from Christian heads, not games with Christian "mechanics". Yes, they'll need to be reasonably clean, and they shouldn't advocate any of the things you mentioned (self pride, greed, conquering at others expense, instant gratification, etc.) but these regulations shouldn't be because "Oh, it's a Christian game, we can't put that in there," but rather because the maker understands the Father's heart and wants to please him.

As for the target audience, I'd like to mix the audience as much as possible, have some stuff that hardcore gamers might enjoy, but keep the focus on casual gamers, primarily because that's the currently growing market and secondarily because that's likely to allow the games to be easier to pick up and play and enjoy by a larger amount of people.

As for the idea of what constitutes a "Christian" game, I think we might just be approaching it from different angles, if you'd like to talk more about it I think this might be a good place. There are also similar threads scattered throughout the forums if you feel like using the forum search to poke around a bit.

------------------

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
The concept is very similar to what I proposed in my interview and 'Nightmares' thread previously. I think it's a good concept (obviously) but the games need to be of high quality in all regards. The industry is mostly known for crappy over the top preachy titles that aren't worth peoples time or money. We need to change that stigmata no matter what to help the industry grow. Being accounable, communicative and encouraging to one another will be the only way we'll be able to pull off some high quality titles.
Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Mack: That's pretty much what I wanted to accomplish with this project, change the stigma on the lowest possible level where individuals on CCN have the capacity to produce and distribute things. There's alot of logistical issues, granted, and alot of work that will need to be done, and I just want to gauge the reaction to the idea in general and see how much everyone would be willing to contribute. Like I said before this is all really tenative, both in planning and in goals.

------------------

charlie

Member

Posts: 26
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: 08-19-2007
Ereon,

Sorry for creating that tangent there. My point wasn't meant to be taken as questioning whether any person's game is Christian or not, or sidetracking this into a debate. Shoot, I designed Finding Keepers, and that's about as literal a rendition of putting a fish sticker on an otherwise worldly mechanic as you can get.

I was just throwing it out there as an idea for a game design goal (responding to Rebecca's comment) with this title, or group of titles. I also figured that you might want some level of consistently in the application of that term for the selection of games, so I thought it’d be good to get a clearer vision of what you were saying. I’m really not trying to challenge anything you said, sorry if it came across wrong.

I will, however, restate my question about the goal for these titles. I think that question got lost in my tangential remarks. What is the goal with this compilation?

Are we trying to show people that Christians can make casual games?
Are we trying to get people saved by playing these?
Are we trying to get people into churches?
Are we trying to teach moral lessons?
Are we trying to make games that people will play instead of their worldly counterparts?

You’re talking about creating a tool here, so I want to make sure we’re clear on what this tool will get used for. Can you give us some more detail on who do you envision using it, whom they will use it on, and what they will want it to do to those people?

Not so much of a philisophical question as just a plain marketing standpoint. Thanks!

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited October 29, 2007).]

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
quote:
As such, I would like to propose a project. More exactly, a compilation CD of small games created by individuals, teams, and studios

So you could say that it depends on the team, studio or person what thier goals are with the title. I think the overall goal however of the collection CD is to show the world that Christian games that are fun can be a reality.

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Part of understanding Ereon's request is to better understand the problem that we're trying to fix. At the risk of being overly wordy, I'll try and lay out some of the foundation of the issues here, just to make sure we're all on the same page.


Much of this coattails on what Mack has been pushing for and encouraging the community to do lately, which is to try and change the stigma and repair the damage that the Christian game "industry" has suffered lately, through LB and other factors.

Other than having a large and really well done "Christian" game released by a major publisher, I don't think we're going to fully repair that damage.

The big trouble is, you can't do a major game without funding. I believe that Mack and many others are of the opinion that LB dried much of that up. The market used to be more interested in religious games -- people were paying attention to the CGDC, and were wondering if it was going to be the next hot market. Many people had high hopes for this (including secular investors), and they watched with baited breath as LB launched and nose-dived into the asphalt.


So Mack is trying to get back to the point where we can even attempt to launch another LB-sized project. About the only available option to us is baby steps. Small games. High level of polish, attract small investors, wash, rinse, repeat. Insanely time consuming, but right now, seems to be the most practical way to move forward.

And so now, the main focus isn't making investor pitches -- not yet anyway. The focus is to start with the customers. When there is a buzz among the audience, then the investors will start looking. I think that Ereon is mainly interested in using the youth pastors as a medium, not a target.

Making games to give away for free and create a buzz is unusual, but not unheard-of. Look at N, or fl0w. I think that he's thinking if we can get a game passed around that is a freebie hit, then we could start to raise an interest for games with a thoughtfully religious element.


So what kind of game is Ereon looking for? I'm not yet entirely sure, but it sounds like games that make no attempt to hide their "Christian" label, but yet it doesn't try to be too preachy. Sortof like Five Iron Frenzy or Audio Adrenaline being a blatantly Christian band, but not always having 18 JPM (Jesus-per-minute) songs.

So if I'm right about what Mack/Ereon is desiring, then the key thing is that it's labeled "Christian" (or at least targeted at that crowd). Sortof like recording your band in your church and pressing CDs and distributing them within Christian circles. To try and give your "Christian music" a bit of street cred, even if only within the Christian community.

Start small, and if enough game artists do this, then we can create a buzz and a "Christian games industry" similar to the CCM industry.

So what we're looking for is something that the Christian community will embrace because of it's Christian content/label, combined with its excellent gameplay and polish. We're trying to remove the stigma that "Christian label == suxorz" by making something that has the label, but is the r0x0rz.

So churches are the primary target, but it doesn't need to stop there. Christian-owned shops can have a stack of CDs on the counter, and the games are fun enough to be played by non-church people as well. The primary focus of these games is not to be evangelistic, but rather to give some street cred back to the Christian game scene. Going back to our 3 categories of games, I'm picturing category 2 games here (Veggie Tales approach, targeting Christians). Bible Dave, Finding Adina/Keepers, etc.

So the closest analogy I can think of here is the Christian music genre, and trying to give games a similar (and even surpassing) amount of credibility among customers, and in following, investors.

Part of why I took so long to reply is that I'm not sure how much I want that.

It's no secret -- I'm not a huge fan of CCM, and the culture surrounding it.

Stacie Orrico is a Christian who recently "crossed over" to make "secular" music. I don't believe I've ever heard any of her "crossover" songs played on Christian radio, even though I heard them on secular Top40 stations (maybe they have, and I've just missed them).

It reminds me of Christians hiring non-believers to play in their worship band on Sunday morning.

It no longer becomes whether or not the musicians are Christian, but whether or not the music is Christian.

This I think is what Charlie was driving at this in his posts.


So I sympathize strongly with the Steveth45 point of view, which is to not worry about making games that bear the Christian label or not. Let's intermingle and try to make games that excel independent of the Focus-on-the-Family-approved market and Dove awards.

Still, I can't deny that the Family Christian Stores have a very nice market, and there is potential there for an "official" Christian games industry. There is potential there if we mine it right.


Either way way we take though (or even both), I can see benefit to creating such a CD as Ereon has suggested. From working on Finding Keepers for the speedgame, I can tell you that one of our huge goals was to make a game that was polished. We made the game as blazingly simple as was reasonable, and it still was way more effort that we expected. Making excellent games is *hard* (no matter what has been suggested in the past), and so I'm trying to think of how many games we could reasonably hope to push out as a community. A good start might be to finish up and polish an existing candidate (such as one of the three I mentioned before -- Bible Dave or Finding Keepers/Adina) as a community project, and seek a CD release of it.

So yeah, lots of discussion -- Mack/Ereon, if I put words in your mouths, please correct me, and I can even edit my post to take out blatant misinformation.

Thanks!

In Christ,
clint

Edit: Word cleanup and formatting.

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited October 29, 2007).]

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
Very well made post Han, you hit on a lot of aspects that I hope will happen in the industry. I don’t want it to turn into the CCM however. I much rather have it like CCN, a community of people having a brotherhood of love and support for one another. Making programs, games, Christian games, etc. and supporting each other in every way we can. While I’m in direct competition between David at Rebel Planet and Scott at Brethren I consider them my best friends. We joke, laugh, hang out and help each other in whatever ways we can. That’s how it SHOULD be. I brought this up at CGDC04 and only a couple of people approached me, we formed friendships and things have gone good since then. To be brutally honest; the people that jeered me in that aspect or tried to take advantage of the friendship or outright refused, they aren’t around anymore. I think through the bonds of friendship and true Christianity is what helped us push on through the real bleak times. Since we’re reforming the industry I say we should reform it in a non-traditional way which sets us apart not only in product but in business relations as well. I’m tired of having to deal with scummy ‘Christian’ business people; I want to deal with brothers and sisters in Christ.

To get the bundle CD in stores the only hook is going to be: ‘FREE’ cost equals ‘RISK FREE PROFIT’ for them. Even them I’m sure we’ll run into some resistance as a lot of Christians are still locked in ‘technological fear’ of games (thanks general media and ignorant preachers). Same thing happened with books, radio, movies and TV, we lag by at least 20 years which is stupid. We should be on the cutting edge like back in the early church days, cutting edge ways to reach people with Christs message.

Like Ereon touched on; it’ll most likely have to be local on a per store/per youth pastor/per whatever basis. I don’t think we could handle the supply and demand of giving away free games to CBA channels. Which brings another point up; costs involved. For the giveaway I was going to do next year it was going to be 1000 DVDs (in printed DVD cases with printed DVDs) for $1 each. I was going to have one of my artists do a collection cover with a bunch of the games on the cover in some sort of dynamic poses or something. Bright, colourful front to grab peoples attentions, I was going to cover the costs for everyone. However if we’re thinking more than 1000 copies then I’ll need some finical aid.

For the developers, I’d recommend packaging a ‘standard’ version of your casual game and then promoting a ‘deluxe’ edition of your game purchasable from either your site or a reseller like CGNOW.com (run by Tim). While the games are small the high quality standards will involve some more time than something like the speed game contest and may involve some of your own pocket cash. Having a ‘deluxe’ version of your game (sporting more levels, more music, higher end graphics, etc.) will enable you to continue to do more games down the road. Developers who have previously released titles (Axys, Light Rangers, Zoo Race) can package demos (or repackage ‘special release demos’) with advertising for the game at the end. I’ll probably get Gump or someone to make us a snazzy launcher which will make things uber easy for people to access the titles and access developers websites.

Right now the casual game market is booming, almost EVERYONE is getting into it. With floods of high quality titles coming out it’s going to be difficult for us to really ‘hit it off’ the first time around. Like Han said; we’ll be doing a lot of rinse and repeats until we build enough profit to get into larger titles. You’ll need a lot of stamina and endurance to make the title shine (like David said). I think we can do it, I think it’s one of the last options we can do to make this happen.

------------------

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
What Clint said is essentially correct. I want to focus on the customers, and by-pass the investors/publishers completely, at least for now. The Christian game industry needs some street credibility, because right now it's lost it almost entirely with the secular crowd, and preciously few of what should be our primary audience in many ways (Christians) even know we exist. I envision a disk that I can take to the Game Programming lab here at the college, pop it in, and catch a few eyes, and at the same time a project that proudly wears the label of Christian with courage and truth, as its heart, and not just a stick-on label that someone taped on during development.

I think in many ways Clint's analogy of the Christian music industry is at least somewhat close to what I had in mind, though I agree with him that I don't fully approve of it either. These games shouldn't be Christian because the game is "Christian", they should be Christian because the people who make them are Christians, the same way Tolkein and Lewis wrote their works, and the same way a large amount of scientists throughout history (Newton, Pascal, Faraday, Pasteur, and many others) changed the course of all human knowledge without necessarily creating "Christian" science, but simply being scientists who were Christians.

I'm not sure exactly what I expect or want from this project, I just know that something needs to be done, and that within this community we have the minds, tools, and experience to do something effective. If you guys think one really good game would be good, then ok, let's roll with it, or if a few of you would be interested prettying up a few of your Speedgame entries and perhaps a few demos of excellent Christian games and packaging them together in a fancy wrapping (al la Gametapish type 3D "choose a game" system, or perhaps an interesting take on a 3D environment that linked to all of the games from a central area that the player could also explore) I'm cool with either one. I'm willing to contribute work, but I want to DO something, I want to see something happen, see progress of some kind, and I love to be a part of something that was accomplishing something good.

Just to clear one thing up though Clint, I was also thinking of distributing copies to small businesses as well which may not necessarily be Christian if they'd let us that is. Probably mainly comic book shops (I know we still have a few around Ohio) and other such places, especially in smaller towns where there are usually one or two main places where highschool/colleged age people (part of our primary market) usually hang out.

Anyhoo, my two cents, again.

------------------

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited October 29, 2007).]

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
quote:
Still, I can't deny that the Family Christian Stores have a very nice market, and there is potential there for an "official" Christian games industry. There is potential there if we mine it right.

Unfortunately, Christian bookstores are not a good target. A large percentage of the evangelical market does not even shop there (I'd have to look up the statistics again but they are surprising). They have historically been uncooperative when it comes to marketing video games. You should pretty much expect your games to get wedged into the bottom shelf of the software section somewhere in the back of the store.

Not to mention they are very controlling. It's not very well known but corporate management at Family Christian bookstore refused to allow us to sell Eternal War: Shadows of Light through any of their franchises. Twice! They were actually trying to dictate game design to us! Apparently this was the lone decision of someone-I-won't-name in corp management. There are many middle management and store owners that would love to sell our game.

Honestly, we need to discuss distribution channels. It's all well and good to talk about releasing these multi-game discs but without a distribution channel the effort is kinda doomed due to lack of financial resources for manufacturing costs.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
Some of you have this file already, but for those that don't, it's a great doc to read through:

http://www.igda.org/casual/IGDA_CasualGames_Whitepaper_2006.pdf

------------------
Brian

"OOP programmers have a lot of class"

Check out this webhost! Fantastic prices, features and support!

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Gump: I'll have to call them and see, but as I mentioned in the first post here in Ohio we have something called the Southern Ohio Ministry Association (I don't think they have a website, but I looked) that's essentially a cooperative of several different churchs throughout the southern half of the state. They have a fairly good network of connections and therefore the possibility of distribution to several sizeable churchs and businesses as well (SOMA runs a Christ-centered school of business, several graduates of which own business scattered around the area). I know that they posess professional grade machinery for copying and labeling CDs in reasonably large quantities, I'll just have to call them and see if they'd be interested in helping, which I suspect they will be. However, that's only a small part of a much broader scope. As far as manufacturing and distributing in other areas/locales that's a whole different matter. It would require some low level work on the part of individuals to secure the locations of distribution, and that shouldn't be too complicated, but how are we going to produce the product. I think that it's going to be a matter of what opportunities arise, since we don't have any way of centralizing production while still keeping costs down unless we find some way of directly making money off of these things and funneling it into a fund of some sort for production costs, which open up a whole new can of worms in the process. If I can secure production tools here in Ohio I'd be willing to be the guinea pig, but I don't see how we can work on a large scale, at least not right now.

------------------

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
We've got the talent and the ability to do this. So what's the game going to be?

Edit:

Why not just market it on the internet? Looking up church emails is free.

You know, I don't like to bad-mouth anybody. I like to look at their point of view and understand. So, Christian bookstores operate on a shoe-string budget and they can't litterally afford to take chances on unproved products. Stocking Christian video games means they have to take a chance. If you beg them (let's remind ourselves) then they'll eventually take it, but it's not going next to the register. Christian bookstores are not a good outlet. Not because they're evil, just because of the nature of their business. They can't afford us.

It's good to count the cost of ventures, and to have a goal of the end before you start. But in our case, we don't have that luxury.

It's dead and it needs to be resurrected. People of no faith stop here. Only faith will help us, and that means action. In my book, making BDL in a couple days is God's way of telling us to use our talents and skills together as a team and make it happen.

Our strategy is to make a polished game and then give it away. Let's not make a big plan. Let's just do it. Momentum is our best weapon, because we need life in this industry, not money.

It's a great idea to take what we've already got and polish it. The Lord impressed this on me a couple days ago. So, what game are we doing?

What game are we going to make?

[This message has been edited by JeTSpice (edited October 29, 2007).]

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
JeTSpice: Actually I was thinking of a small compilation of games. CCN Speedgame Comp entires (reworked with enhanced quality in mind), demos of games like the Axys Adventures and Lightrangers, and other such stuff. I'll leave it up to debate though if you guys want to do one big project and release that, but I personally don't think it would be the wisest approach to do so, mainly because of the size of the project and coordination issues which usually seem to plague most larger scale projects.

------------------

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
If you're doing casual games then you guys need to know the market. Unlike the rest of the video gaming demographics, the casual gaming market has a female majority. I'd suggest going to various popular casual gaming portals and trying a variety of games to get a feel for what people enjoy.

Personally I think a "Christian hangout" version of Habbo Hotel would be cool:

http://www.habbo.com/

It's a pay-for-perks/ad revenue business model with a "game that's not quite a game" social networking design. It also need not be "blatantly Christian"...as in non-Christians could come and enjoy themselves. But the social gathering nature of the game would give ample opportunity to witness. The mini-games could also have simple messages or stories built into them.

But pick whatever project you guys prefer. I'll be quite frank and say that my schedule at this time would only me to chip in a little.

[This message has been edited by gump (edited October 29, 2007).]

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
(I edited up there.)

Yeah, Ereon, that's a great idea. Let's all work together on polishing one of these first, and then more people will jump on board because of the excitement and we can divide up into our respective camps.

You know, in an RTS, if you have 100 guys and send them individually all over the map, you'll lose. But if you have just 20 guys together and mob everybody in the map, you win.

(Oops, I'm not saying any of us would be mopes, I'm saying I've seen this bad scenario before: )
If we have 10 projects going and mope around asking "Who wants to join Group number 3?" then people will join just to join (and they'll do nothing for very good reasons and quit). On BDL, we had people feeling BAD that they couldn't help. That's the power of concentrated momentum. So, it's better that we all focus on one project first, and after that get to working on more projects.

I'm totally willing to submit my skills and talents to help a project get polished. There's no greater love than a man lay down his life for his friends.

If you all agree, then where shall we start?

Edit: Habbo looks fun, but is this a huge online community?

[This message has been edited by JeTSpice (edited October 29, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by JeTSpice (edited October 29, 2007).]

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Ok, so what project do you guys want to start with, and what can we all contribute? I have some skills in BASIC styled programming languages, a VERY small amount of C, and Python with a bit of knowledge is Pygame. I can do art as well (2D and 3D). I think the main thing is what project are we going to use, and it needs to be SMALL and preferably one that's already in motion (possible a Speedgame entry or such). I'd be willing to help with logistics as well (central webspace, communication, design docs etc).

As for my speedgames, Super Sower and Peras, they're a no-go as far as community projects. Firstly the source code is a swirling mess of sewage and secondly I think I'm the only one on CCN that knows the language and can compile it.

Clint: Are you going to have time to contribute this. You're wisdom/leadership would be greatly appreciated but if you're swamped that's cool too.

------------------

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited October 29, 2007).]

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
I can do 2D art and music.

Edit: haven't played Bible Dave or Adina.

[This message has been edited by JeTSpice (edited October 29, 2007).]

LegaianLight

Member

Posts: 71
From: Colorado, United States
Registered: 04-04-2006
I want to help but I don't have a lot of experience in any language. I understand the syntax of java, I am very comfortable with html/css, and I'm learning Javascript.

The main difficulty is that I don't understand how to combine the syntax with graphics in most of these languages. For example, I have been able to make a poor text-based rpg in quickbasic (at school) and another in java, however I am unsure how to add graphics to these or even how to do something like add a battle system into the game. So those are area's I would like to know how to do more on.

I have some experience doing pixel art (I showed some of my work in the past) and enjoy that when I know what I'm looking for.

Oh, and I would only be able to do programming with programs that are mac compatible (so no basics or .net languages)

So I would love to help, though I may not be able to be the most reliable person at all times and I am in need of teaching and experience.

------------------
O Praise Christ, O Praise Christ, He Is Holy, He Is Holy - O Praise Him

We're standing on the shores of forever - where stars are shining brighter than before. And peace is the Prince of the moment. Our hearts are so weary from the war.

SSquared

Member

Posts: 654
From: Pacific Northwest
Registered: 03-22-2005
I just want to be another voice to say, "Yes". I like the idea.

I believe my desire for this is probably different from most everyone else. I want to make mini-games for:

1) the children at church.
2) promoting specific things at our church.

I've already had the Associate Pastor ask if they can put a download on our site for my CCN Speedgame. Unfortunately, I said not at this stage. I plan to convert it to TGB for PC and Mac and make several cleanups and additions. I am just about at the stage of beginning that conversion. In fact, I was going to start it tonight, but this message is taking much longer than I had expected.

As I've mentioned before, my first goal is to build a game to help promote some missionaries we have. I am on their communications team and hope to use the game as a way for people to remember them and just to have fun.

I am shooting for children because I find they will play almost anything. And they will play it over and over again. No, I'm not trying to cut down on quality, but I feel I can make simpler, easier, 2D sprite-based games with a much smaller development time.

My goal is to somehow tie the games in with something at church. So there is a connection between the game and our church. And through these games, they may make people ask, "I wonder what other types of computer games are available?"

Another goal I have is to create the games using assets which can be easily changed/edited so other churches can use the game for a similar purpose but add their own unique images. For example, have a body with no head so anyone can add their pastor's head or whoever they want.

These thoughts are all in the early stages. TGB is helping me in seeing this through. And the Bible David Lancaster game was almost like a proof of concept for me in how I can attain what I am looking to do.

So, those are some of the things I am looking to do and why.

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
Americas Funniest Home Video Game: A platformer where you fall off ladders, and get hit with bats trying to herd groups of mischeivious babies to the next level. Kindof like lemmings, only you have a player character and you get beat up alot.

Or, whatever. I don't want to push for anything. I'm just a'waitin' for somebody to tell us what game to make.

charlie

Member

Posts: 26
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: 08-19-2007
So to summarize here,

1) Focus on casual games
-This implies that we're not focusing on the hard-core gamer. They may play our games, but our target is the casual market. As was pointed out, this is primarily females and children... Or hard core gamers, while they're waiting for their code to compile. This has the benefit of meaning we don’t need to have the latest wiz-bang 3D graphics to even be noticed.

2) Aimed at a Christian market
-Again, this doesn't preclude that non-Christians will play the games. It just means that we don't need to tone down the Christian elements that might naturally be part of our games, and we should avoid being preachy (because we might be literally preaching to the choir), and just focus on games that inspire (like Finding Andina) or lightly educate (like Finding Keepers), or simply entertain (like Bible Dave).

3) Multiple titles
-So instead of one silver bullet, we're creating a bunch of games that are fun to play, and appeal to different personalities / meet different needs. We're also creating titles that can be accomplished and polished in a reasonable amount of time. Like over two days, for instance.

Have I summarized correctly? I think that answers all the questions I was asking up front.

There's been some talk about distribution as well, but I think there may be another possibility. Games that meet the qualifications listed above are exactly what Brethren is looking for on their site. ( http://www.brethren-et.com/BESite3/games_home.php ) Right now they are primarily listing games from BigFish, but they'd really like to have more games with overtly Christian content. I'm not going to put words in Scott's mouth, but I think Brethren would be very interested in any polished titles that we could make along these lines. We’ve already talked to both Scott and Simon about this for Finding Keepers. They'd give us a place to distribute them from, and we'd give them content. It's very much of a win-win situation. This doesn't stop us from also putting them on a CD as well, but it does give us a place to upload them as soon as they go gold.

So then, where do we go from here?

We've got at least three "nearly finished"* titles worth completing, plus a couple more that we could also bring to completion. Plus, I'm sure there are plenty of us with ideas for lots more games just bouncing around in our heads. Do we want to run more than one project at a time? Do we have a sister "Christian Artists Network" that we can bring onboard to provide digital art for our projects?

What's next to get this project mobilized?


(* Some restrictions may apply. Please see authorized dealer for details. Projects in mirror may be larger than they appear.)

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
I suggest voting to promote someone to Game Design Lead. That person picks the concept and scope of the projects. Everyone can of course suggest ideas aplenty but to prevent this from becoming a debating committee the Game Design Lead makes the decision.
Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Charlier: I think that's pretty much correct. As much as I'd like to jump straight into distributing to the secular market the Christian market is going to be easier and much more forgiving I think. So anyhoo, what three title were you talking about exactly? I'd like to take a crack at reworking the source and art for Bible Dave (primarily the art, with a full 2.5Dish conversion possibly to fancy up the graphics: btw CPU, if you'd like to get in on that I'd appreciate it, you know it better than any of us here so far I think). We could do Finders Keepers if you and Clint were interested in allowing us to do so Charlie, and possibly some other games from the Competition provided that we were able to work with the code.

The second thing on the agenda is communication. I was thinking about using something like Teamspeak, but the problem with that is that it requires a server that has to be kept up and running 24/7. I'd like to use voicechat of some kind because I think it gives a more personal atmosphere and strengthens bonds between teammates. So I was thinking something VoIP centered like Skype, that would allows us both IM and voicechat capabilities and be a little more flexible than Teamspeak.

Right now I think it would be wise to completely avoid starting any new games until we get the team solidified, ironed out, and well oiled. As for a Lead Designer I'd be tickled to death if someone more experienced like Clint, Gump, or Mack could take the job, but as you guys are probably rather busy I'm not sure where you all stand on being able to do so. I agree with Gump though, we need a Lead Designer to nail everything down and avoid the quagmire of trying to find titles to work on.

------------------

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
quote:
As for a Lead Designer I'd be tickled to death if someone more experienced like Clint, Gump, or Mack could take the job

I'd love too but I'm already dealing with two smaller projects which consumes a ton of my time. I'll help wherever I can with what time/resources that I have. I think Han would be a good choice for a lead but that's up to him.

------------------

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
quote:
Men also avid players of casual video games: study

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Men are just as likely as women to play casual video games, but are less likely to admit it, according to an industry report that shatters a widely held industry belief that such games appeal mainly to women.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071029/tc_nm/videogames_casual_dc

------------------

MastaLlama

Member

Posts: 671
From: Houston, TX USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by JeTSpice:
Americas Funniest Home Video Game: A platformer where you fall off ladders, and get hit with bats trying to herd groups of mischeivious babies to the next level. Kindof like lemmings, only you have a player character and you get beat up alot.

Or, whatever. I don't want to push for anything. I'm just a'waitin' for somebody to tell us what game to make.



That sounds awesome! Nothing beats seein' some poor unsuspecting sap get nailed with a bat by a 3 year old kid!

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Wow, lots of energy and excitement in this thread.

So I'm seeing a slight shift here, where we're taking a bit of a step back from Ereon's original proposal, and it sounds like we're once again talking about the CCN Community Project. In that thread, ArchAngel talked about how multiple concurrent projects could work on a practical level, and proposed that people who want to get started on coding now can work on Bible Dave (in response to this, CPU started a punchlist thread to plan out the completion roadmap for Bible Dave). Sam Washburn, CPUFreak and I have all put time into fleshing out the story for Bible Dave in effort to make that last push to finish this one up. As I've said before, we as a community tend to suffer from a chronic syndrome of not finishing projects. I'd like to help us grow into better habits, and learn more of what it takes to finish what we start.

quote:
Luke 14:28-29:
For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'

(keep in mind that Jesus is talking about the cost of discipleship here, but his word-picture applies here as well)

I don't think that I would like to reprogram Bible Dave from the ground up right now. I will certainly concede that if we were to start it again, knowing what we know now, we could make it a *lot* better.

Even so, it's got potential as-is, and I'd like to see us cull features-that-aren't-going-to-get-done, package it up, put some spitshine on it, and move on to another project. Shoot the engineer, ship it, and let's move onto the next project. CPU/Sam, you guys with me on this one? No more new features, let's just do the final spin and move on. No it won't be a perfect game -- most of us were quite amateur when we started on that one.

At *some* point (maybe not now), I do want to complete it and move on.

I think the ideas tossed around for other community projects are absolutely fantastic. It's great that people are interested in developing an online community game -- I've wanted to develop a game like Habbo Hotel for quite a while (scroll down in the thread a bit). That's a genre that I feel has real potential, and as soon as my Metaplace alpha account gets approved (hopefully they'll let me in in the next few rounds), I'm pretty sure I'll be starting back up on this one again. I still haven't ruled out DutchPIPE as a good engine for this project either though.

quote:
Originally posted by JeTSpice:
haven't played Bible Dave or Adina.


I definitely think you should fix that.

One of the projects that I feel has the most potential is Finding Adina -- the storyline, artwork, music, and design of that project are just top-notch in my opinion, and I would love to see that one get done. The quality of the game certainly gives it enough support to stand on its own, apart from a "Christian" label. That's the kind of game I'm looking for, and I would also like to move Adina forward.

However, part of what makes Finding Adina so good is that Sam has maintained a very high level of creative control over the project. "Community" projects have a history of being very melting-pot-ish, where we try to include everybody's contributions, and the internal-consistency of the game just isn't there. In some games, this can work very well (such as in Bible David Lancaster, where that was an intended disjointed look we were going for). However, in games that are seeking polish (such as Finding Adina or Finding Keepers), then it can be damaging / time-consuming to include contributions from people who aren't 100% on board with the established creative vision of the project. As such, I don't think Finding Adina can ever be treated like Bible Dave or Bible David Lancaster in that regard. Because it is developed by a member of the community and it has the support of the community, it will always be one of the "CCN Projects," but I don't think it can be a community project in that it is actively developed by everyone in the community. If we as a community are going to help develop it, the only way I can see that happening is through a hand-picked team selection of community members who can produce quality work that is consistent with the established vision.


quote:
Originally posted by Ereon:
Clint: Are you going to have time to contribute this. You're wisdom/leadership would be greatly appreciated but if you're swamped that's cool too.


I may have time. I'm pretty swamped, and there are loads of projects that have slid off the back burner just because too much stuff is clattering about on the stove. However, many of the projects on my plate coincide with the goals of this project, so it's not all bad. I'm very honored that people are interested in having my help in leading the project. I suppose my answer on this one is, "let's keep exploring and find out." I'm still not entirely sure what we're hoping to do here, but for now I'll continue advising and leading when necessary.


Charlie: You have some fantastic notes here -- I'm really really glad that you're here to give perspective and advice. I'd be perfectly happy with you leading the project as well.

I think you brought up some great points, specifically as supporting Brethren by producing games to publish through their games portal. I think you're right -- if we were to do a ground-up casual game design, in addition to CD distribution, we would do well to target it for distribution through Big Fish / Brethren channels. You've been researching and tracking the current trends in the casual games space, and as we talked about a few weeks ago, I'm still very interested in working on such a casual games project with you. I think this idea has quite a bit of potential.

quote:
Originally posted by JeTSpice:
I'm totally willing to submit my skills and talents to help a project get polished.


Yes! This is exactly what it takes in order to get projects done in a community. As Gump has been saying for years, there are too many chiefs and not enough indians. I too hope that I can offer my services in order to help the project move forward, even if I'm not calling shots.


quote:
Originally posted by JeTSpice:
Let's not make a big plan. Let's just do it. Momentum is our best weapon, because we need life in this industry, not money.


This is where I say that I'm willing to do that for small projects like Bible David Lancaster, but I don't think it's enough to work in the long haul. The original One Month Game happened this way -- not much up-front design let people dig into development quickly, but it petered out. Same with Midnight -- the PyWeek entry for last year. Adrenaline is a great way to get things going, but I've never seen anything polished come out of it. I think that sprints are very fun projects, and I enjoy seeing them happen for the learning that goes on, but I just haven't seen much produced by them. I'm not trying to exert control over the community -- y'all are welcome to do whatever you like. I'm just still weighing in my mind whether or not I'll help out, and to what degree, and I'm just saying ahead of time what you could expect if I were the one leading.


Okay, well I've spent long enough typing this up. Thanks a lot for everyone's input!

In Christ,
clint

Edit: Cleaned up my thoughts in the last paragraph

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited October 30, 2007).]

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
quote:
I was thinking about using something like Teamspeak, but the problem with that is that it requires a server that has to be kept up and running 24/7. I'd like to use voicechat of some kind because I think it gives a more personal atmosphere and strengthens bonds between teammates. So I was thinking something VoIP centered like Skype, that would allows us both IM and voicechat capabilities and be a little more flexible than Teamspeak.

We've been using TeamSpeak for a while in XX. Saves us on phone bills and the quality is actually better than vonage. I can set up an additional CCN channel if need be.

Oh, my server has a 10Mb/1Mb connection, so it can handle a fairly large group.

[This message has been edited by gump (edited October 30, 2007).]

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
Visions started out using Skype and ran into a bunch of problems. They use teamspeak now and it runs fine.

It looks apparent that Bible Dave is the candidate. 'Zat true? And not a complete re-write, just to complete the to-do and polish it.

On art, let's give this community a chance to do it, too. Nothing saying we can't get people from Christian artist forums. But they should know that if it's not up to snuff (quality-wise and time-wise), we can't use it.

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by JeTSpice:
It looks apparent that Bible Dave is the candidate. 'Zat true? And not a complete re-write, just to complete the to-do and polish it.


Well, I dunno'. I think Bible Dave is good, but I'm not sure that it is quite the gem-in-the-rough that we're looking for. It's got a lot of great things about it, and CPU, I mean no offense, but we just didn't know enough when we were starting it to give it the foundation that's needed for the level of street-cred-building polish that Ereon/Mack are asking for.

I'm sorry for giving the wrong impression about what I thought about Bible Dave -- I was bringing it up in so far as to help the community finish a project that has potential and is really close to being done. 90% of the effort is in the last 10% of the project, and many people on these boards have rarely (if ever) experienced finishing up a project and calling it "done." (myself included -- I talk a lot, but I'm not nearly as experienced as Mack or David Lancaster or many others)

It's primarily for that reason that I think there is much value for the community to finish up Bible Dave. It's a nice little game for people to install as well -- I'm not saying the game isn't fun -- it's just that as-is, I don't think it's got quite enough potential to build the reputation we're hoping for. I think something like Finding Adina is much closer to that mark, though I've already laid out some of the issues surrounding a community working project with tight creative vision like that.

If people are interested in coding and doing artwork right now, I say they focus on finishing up up Bible Dave and we can call it done. I think Charlie's idea of targeting Big Fish Games-style casual games is a fantastically feasible project, and we should pick a genre and some goals and start working on a game to fulfill that.

I don't have enough current knowledge to determine what kind of game we would want to make -- I would like to draw on Charlie and other game designers (Gump? Mack? Anyone else?) to give advice in that regard.

Okay, I've spent way too much time typing on all this stuff today.

--clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited October 30, 2007).]

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
I know it's a little late for me to come in here and make suggestions. But-- why does it have to be Bible Dave? (whether it's sequel, remake, finishing the existing game, spin off, etc.)

I mean when CPUFreak first presented the 2nd community project idea, the original concept was a "Christian Mario Bros" or something to that effect. And *we* as a community thought of Bible Dave: the character, look, concepts and everything contained it-- *collectively*...why can't we do the same thing now but with fresh new ideas?

That's what makes indie gaming so exciting, we can try out new and interesting ideas and we're not clenching to existing, well tested ideas to just put out sequel after sequel, spin-off after spin-off to be sure we make a buck.

[This message has been edited by Lava (edited October 30, 2007).]

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
my bad. I thought it was being *suggested* to do BD, but it's not.

...

I just bought the DAZ baby kit.

They've also got this:

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/shop/itemdetails/-/?item=4821

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
I think Clint made a good point about finishing Bible Dave (note this is from a completely external perspective). I don't think he's saying there's a problem with creating something the same way Bible Dave was created, just that finishing Bible Dave is a good milestone to set... actually completing a project. Whether or not the project is as good as it can be or turned out like you had hoped it's still a huge step.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
quote:
Originally posted by JeTSpice:
my bad. I thought it was being *suggested* to do BD, but it's not.

Ah ok, well in case that something like it is made (Bible Dave 2, Bible Dave 3D, Bible Dave spin-off, etc). As I remember in the past continuations of Bible Dave have been suggested.

My bad as well

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Langley:
I don't think he's saying there's a problem with creating something the same way Bible Dave was created, just that finishing Bible Dave is a good milestone to set... actually completing a project.

I agree, in fact I advocate using the same process that was used, throwing out a *basic* concept of a game and building around it. But that's up to you guys.

The basic point I am trying to make is originality.

[This message has been edited by Lava (edited October 30, 2007).]

SSquared

Member

Posts: 654
From: Pacific Northwest
Registered: 03-22-2005
I was going to write something before lunch but then I stepped out anyway and now I see some new updates.

I just want to throw out my thoughts regarding Bible Dave. It's not so much about Bible Dave, though, as it is about deciding on your audience. Now, I have my own ideas and desires for this, so perhaps I am projecting (a psychological term meaning to put your own thoughts onto someone else whether or not it is actually true).

Please understand I am not trying to be negative about BD, but I hope to use it to make a point.

When working on something, I look at my target audience and user base and decide what will work and what won't. What is the most important, what is least important? Time and various other factors certainly play a part as well.

I just want to be sure everyone is thinking outside of just gameplay. Think strongly about development platform, language, and even installation. If this is to represent our work, you don't want customers getting frustrated over installing a game. Here's where BD comes in. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought BD requires Python to run. Will a game requiring a 3rd Party installation be reasonable for this project? Will they even want to install one or more 3rd Party additions? Adding another layer of install makes it just that more complicated for the user and for whoever supports it. I suppose there may be ways to slip the install in under the covers, but I personally have a problem with installing extra fluff on people's computers without their knowledge.

I have never actually played Bible Dave for the very reason mentioned. I do not want to install Python. Woah! Hey! That actually reminds me! I just installed Python on my work computer last week so that I can run some Python scripts we have. Heh heh heh. I may get to play Bible Dave after all.

I plan to use Torque Game Builder. I like how it is cross-platform allowing me to build a game for the Mac, which is a significant portion of my audience. I find you package it up and it works. The one problem I have is Intel video chips crawl to a snail's pace when using background images. Lame, but I will need to work around this by not using background images since I am assuming a good percentage of my audience will have an Intel integrated video chip.

So, I hope I'm not sounding negative or anything. I just think this is a significant topic. There is nothing more upsetting than a customer who can't even install a product. They will just move on. I guess I would try and encourage you to mitigate those upfront issues as best you can. Figure out the quickest way to get your customer up and running a game.

The Brethren idea helps because I assume there is a well-defined interface and they already supply the client framework installation, if need be.

charlie

Member

Posts: 26
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: 08-19-2007
Wow, this thread is moving too fast to reply.

Just to clarify, the Bible Dave rehash suggestion came from a quote from Clint a while back in the thread. He was just suggesting that using an existing title might speed up our turnaround:

quote:
Originally posted by HanClinto:

Either way way we take though (or even both), I can see benefit to creating such a CD as Ereon has suggested. From working on Finding Keepers for the speedgame, I can tell you that one of our huge goals was to make a game that was polished. We made the game as blazingly simple as was reasonable, and it still was way more effort that we expected. ... so I'm trying to think of how many games we could reasonably hope to push out as a community. A good start might be to finish up and polish an existing candidate (such as one of the three I mentioned before -- Bible Dave or Finding Keepers/Adina) as a community project, and seek a CD release of it.


I agree that one of the keys pieces of making our titles polished will be coming up with a surrounding application framework that is user-friendly. This means an easy-to-use install, well written and easy-to-access documentation, and a thouroughly QA'd product. There's probably a bunch of other things we'll need to work through depending on our platform too. For instance, TGB has some serious tuning that needs to be applied to keep games from hogging too much memory. Our simple Finding Keepers runs at 400MB of RAM on my system. That's a little higher than I think we'd want to see on a polished realease.*

Anyway, without rambling too much, there's much more to making a polished game that we'll need to be ready to commit to if we're going to embark on this project, and not all of it is fun stuff (But it's all good). I can see if Bretheren has a bullet list of needed features such as these on their releases.

*Note rampant sarcasm.
[Edit: cleaned up typos]

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited October 30, 2007).]

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
I think I need to use fewer words when I post -- I fear that the length of my posts have inclined people to skim them, and so it fogs what I'm really trying to say.

quote:
Originally posted by Lava:
I agree, in fact I advocate using the same process that was used, throwing out a *basic* concept of a game and building around it. But that's up to you guys.

The basic point I am trying to make is originality.



And we can totally do that brainstorming thing -- I've found it to be quite helpful in the near past. The basic point I am trying to make is intentionality. I think it's a good idea to start out making a design (I thought Charlie's suggestion of targeting Big Fish Games was fantastic), but just to help the overall community development health, I thought that while the designers are designing, that perhaps the artists and programmers could keep busy and finish up Bible Dave.

Some of the community (Joe, Sam, and to some degree, myself) have some measure of commitment still tied up in Bible Dave, and I thought it'd be nice to free up some of the community resources/attention before starting on a completely new project.

While Bible Dave can be polished into a very nice game, I pretty much agree with SSquared -- for a wide number of reasons, Bible Dave is probably not the gem that we want to polish to gain serious "street cred" (and for the record -- no, you don't need to install Python to play the Windows version of Bible Dave -- only if you want to play it on Linux or Mac).

When I suggested finishing up Bible Dave in specific, I meant it for the reasons that were given in the old Community Project thread -- to finish what we start while we design the next game. I agree with what people are saying, where finishing Bible Dave doesn't directly accomplish exactly what Ereon was asking for, it is merely something I was suggesting might be helpful as we go along our way.

Sorry for the confusion -- I'll try to be more succinct in the future. I don't necessarily have all my mental ducks in a row either, and I'm still forming what I think of all of this.

--clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited October 30, 2007).]

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
I second that about what Ssquared is saying, about plug-and-play.

So, are we thinking about a brower-based casual game from the ground up?


(Thinking to self)...babies and pinatas... so funny!


Edit: Okay, somebody give me some BD graphics they need done.

[This message has been edited by JeTSpice (edited October 30, 2007).]

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
Han, I believe you were clear enough, I think I should've addressed your post originally to differentiate points. For my original post I was more aiming for "when you guys get to your first game idea and you're ready to start brainstorming and start on it, don't cling to another Bible Dave game but think up something new."

And I agree with what you're saying, I even think that's why a 3rd community project hasn't been successfully formulated, there was still unfinished business with Bible Dave. I'm guessing when a 3rd project was suggested some people probably thought "a 3rd project? is Bible Dave even done?".

That is really what can be wrong with hobbyist indie game development, if all we're investing is time and talent and not money, a project can either:

A. Sit on a shelf
B. Get finished
C. Or get dropped altogether,

Whereas when people are actually investing money, and it's a gamble, they'd rather just drop the project and move on if it doesn't work out then let it sit there till they have enough time and motivation to finish it.

[This message has been edited by Lava (edited October 30, 2007).]

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Ok then, what do we have the capacity to do exactly? It would tickle me to death to do something online based, but then the question becomes do we have the capability? What tools do we have available and what can we do with them. Right now I know Python, but none of the networking stuff, only the really basic things. As for the game itself, I think it needs to be something at least Christian themed since we're apparantly going to be marketing it to churchs at some point and online Christian sites. I think a Christian online virtual chat program/game would be very interesting, possible something like Haboo Hotel (As was already mentioned on this thread) or even Gaia Online (Which is immensely popular with the college crowd where I'm going to school). As for game ideas I have none righ now well developed enough to post.

------------------

PFC

Member

Posts: 29
From: Canada
Registered: 10-16-2007
Finaly I get to reply... been keeping up but due to certain isses it had to be offline...

Ereon: as for networking, I'm verry good at server/client programming in python (even if the other end of the connection is done in something else)
so if we need networking, I can do that

I have built up a simple 3D networked world in python that allowed for users to sing up and then log in... (my python 3Dmmorpg game engine) it was basic but good proof-of-concept for that type of game/social gathering place(like habbo hotel, and it worked on my pIII 256mbRAM) the best part being that it was all done by one person and took about a week to do... if we had a good structure for people to contribute to it, it would be possible to do(even if the client was built on somethign else...) this would be useless for a cd, but would be good for online (anyone good at building in browser programs???)

as for easy-install, I think thats a verry big thing, for windows, python isn't an issue, for linux, python is usualy already installed(other modules can come with the game...) and I have no clue for mac... but whatever we do, we need to remember that what a user sees before they play the game is what makes or brakes the user's interest

as for bible dave, I have played it a bit, but what exactly has to be done? do we have a specific list of to-do things for it yet?

------------------
Heart of a Warrior

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Guys, you are skipping organization and jumping straight into design.

First off, compile a list of people who are available with:

Skill sets
Tools Owned
Time available
Assets/code already created.

Post this info.

Second, create a structure. I'd suggest keeping it very simple:

Project Lead
Programming Lead
Assets (Art, Sounds, etc) Lead
Coders
Artists

The coders and artists report directly to the Lead, who must coordinate their efforts. The Project Lead oversees everything.

Third, figure out how you are going to synchronize your work.

Code: I'd suggest a tool like Trac for the coders.

Art assets: I "think" Perforce might be free for a limited number of users for art asset management? Otherwise, you could just use SVN built into Trac.

OpenWorkBench is a good open source project scheduling suite.

Set up a Wiki for design documentation. Perhaps use it for bug reporting as well.

SSquared

Member

Posts: 654
From: Pacific Northwest
Registered: 03-22-2005
> Guys, you are skipping organization and jumping straight into design.

Ooops. Sorry. I was under the impression this was a compilation CD of multiple games. I did not realize this was being proposed as a single CCN Project. I guess I was thinking it was a call for CCN members to create games, thereby leading to multiple games.

I was just trying to point out things each team should think through as they set out on their project. If it's one big CCN project, then yeah, what I said is kind of minor at this point.

Side note: Charlie, thanks for pointing out the memory usage with TGB. I will keep my eye on memory and try to find out ways to mitigate it.

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Even if everyone splits into multiple small groups there still needs to be organization of some type. Personally I think it's better to not split up too much. Game dev requires a startling degree of specialization. The point of this venture is to produce some high quality casual games. I wear many hats at XX and while I'm pretty decent at some types of asset creation if we did not have good artists on the team we'd be sunk. So while there will be overlaps in skillsets the team should only be small to the point where every area of expertise is adequately covered by a specialist. If an area of expertise is not covered the quality will suffer.

Also, I'm not sure how many people are willing to commit to this venture so there might only be enough people for one team doing one game at a time anyway.

[This message has been edited by gump (edited October 31, 2007).]

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Ok then, I agree with Gump, let's organize.

So so far we have these people volunteering:

JeTSpice: 2D art (Not sure if you meant textures, sprites, backgrounds, or all of the above by this) and music

pfc: Python, especially network coding (If you're volunteering that is, not sure whether you actually were or not from your post)

Ereon: Python, BASIC, and some C coding. Texture creation, environmental modeling/design (architecture, terrain, etc) and design/polish.

I would also like to formally propose using Python as the language of choice for this project, I think that it's the cloest thing to a universal that we posess in this community.

As for a Project Lead, Clint, I think the position is extended to you first primarily because of your availability and experience (if anyone disagrees please feel free to correct me).

That leaves Programming Lead, Assets Lead, Coders, Artists, and the rest.

So that means that if everyone is agreed then we have a centralized programming language, and now we need to fill in all the positions and then those who decided to commit to the project will get a say in what gets done.

------------------

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
BTW, I looked at Trac and it looks really neat. I think it would be perfect for coordination. How do you set it up and does anyone have webspace we could use to run it. I'm borderline ignorant when it comes to internet stuff, so I can't do much on my end.

------------------

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
I'm not sure that we can standardize on Python as a programming language -- I haven't yet seen a unified decision as far as *what* to do.

1. We could create/publish a compilation of games, so the effort is largely targeted at marketing/publishing.
2. We could polish/finish an existing game project that is already in progress.
3. We could create a new game from scratch.

If #1, then we've already determined that we don't have enough content yet, and so in order to do this, we need to do options #2 or #3.

If #2, then this thread is essentially a (needed and appreciated) rallying cry to continue what we're doing, just help each other out better and offer our services and work hard, etc etc.

If #3, then I've heard a few big suggestions:
A. Multiplayer online community project, similar to Habbo/VMK/etc (BTW, anyone check out Sulka's keynote from Austin a few months ago?)
B. Casual game, targeted at a Brethren / Big Fish type portal (the IGDA whitepaper that BrianT linked to is *fantastic* -- I started skimming it yesterday -- essential reading for anyone wanting to design a good casual game)
C. Some other title, CD release, creative and original indie game (I haven't yet heard much solid stuff thrown out there surrounding this idea).


Is that about right?

--clint

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
I'm not a Python coder (C++ is my language of choice), so I'm not sure how much I can be involved (not a lot of free time anyway). However, I've been involved in similar projects before, and my preference would be to see three documents done before any real work begins:

Doc 1: Purpose (can be a short doc)
- why are you making this?
- what market are you aiming for?
- what platforms?
- what end date?
- what do you need (cash/people/hardware/software/knowledge)?
- how will it be marketed/published, and what do you expect (number of sales, etc.)?

Doc 2: Function Design (detailed!)
- *What* does the app do? What will it look like to the user, and how will the user use it?

Doc 3: Development Design (detailed!)
- *How* will the stuff in Doc 2 be developed? What languages, tools?
- how are the tasks divided up? Who is responsible for what? How are the sections tied together, and what pieces depend on what other pieces to be defined/stubbed/completed first?
- source control?
- team communication?

No, I'm not volunteering to to these docs, but personally I would not again get involved in a project that do not have these docs in place before work starts. Without them, teams usually get totally hooped, people waste tons of time and resources, and projects go completely out of scope and die (or last years and years) - like going on a long trip by car without a destination in mind, let alone a map. Just a suggestion.

------------------
Brian

"OOP programmers have a lot of class"

Check out this webhost! Fantastic prices, features and support!

[This message has been edited by BrianT (edited October 31, 2007).]

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
Wow, Ereon, I think you really nailed this one! Here are my thoughts.

Practical:
I think the original proposition of a collection of polished games is the way to go. A large team trying to organize on a project is probably going to stagnate. Since folks have different gifts, etc, it makes more sense to get in small groups. I think everyone here that wants to lead a project, should. You can recruit outside of CCN. That's how Cohort X came to CCN, I recruited him for the first speed game competition. Just look at what we (CCNer's) were able to do with small teams in both competitions! Small 1-4 person core teams could make games, then we can help each other when needed.

Vision:
I think having multiple teams will allow us to express ourselves in our unique ways, and have a high level of ownership. For example, everyone has their own definition of what sort of way game developers can glorify Christ through games. Mine might be doing something good and fun and allowing the fact that I'm a Christian (and giving the game away for free) be the part that glorifies Christ and helps clear the reputation of Christian game developers. Another might want a game with Biblical ethics/morality, Christian game mechanics (hit 'x' to repent, 'y' to forgive ), a strong gospel message, or innovative game play. Instead of everyone compromising his or her own vision, just do your own thing, and then we'll help each other get those games to the "polished" stage. There is an amazing amount of diversity within the Christian community, and I think it is healthy to communicate that to the world. People may not like one game or another, but are more likely to find something to appreciate.

Distribution:
I despise Christian retail--the institution, not the people, though they can get on my nerves. If it's free and people are going to be playing these games on computers... I think it would be easiest to have a nice, polished, simple webpage with screenshots where the games can be downloaded. The fewer the sponsors, the better--preferably none. It costs something like $10 for a domain name, and a few bucks a month to get decent webhosting, we can probably pitch in and cover those costs ourselves. Heck, if the games get made, I'd be willing to pay for that, and get the page up and running myself. We should pack all the games up in a zip file, and put that out as a torrent, register it with all the torrent search engines, and make sure there is always a few people seeding it. I know torrent search engines are seedy places (get it?), but where better to let our lights shine? Make gameplay videos and post them on YouTube with the url of the page in the video. Spread the word on various forums. Viral marketing is the way to go.

Presentation:
I don't want to beat people over the head with the Christian label, but I also wouldn't want anyone to play the games without knowing (before downloading even) that they are made by Christians and may or may not contain Christian themes or content. A creative name (possibly to be used for web address) and subtitle should be thought up to facilitate a unified public image. A (cheesy) example would be "Light Games : A Collection of Free Games made by Christians" and the web address would be www.lightgames.com . I know .net or .org would be somewhat more apt, but .com is just easier to recognize. I'm sure that name and/or web address is already taken, it's just an example.

------------------
+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
Great. It looks like stuff is still alive here. Gump and BrianT, I agree that organization and docs are necessary, and both of you all said keep it simple. Great.


We kind of know about each other's skills. Here's more of what I can do. Architectural 2d art I can do at a polished level. Characters I can do using DAZ (3d modeller) with preset models and animations. This can be at a polished level, too. I can't model characters, nor create animations for models. I don't really do textures. I can also do GUI (2d assets of 3d models) And music. I can program in BASIC, but nothing else. If people want to see examples, I'll put something together, and we can decide if that's the degree of polish we want.

Tools owned: Lots of people own TGB, I believe. If we go with that, add "particle effects" to my can-do list. It's a great engine and it's plug-and-play. I'm an idiot and never been able to run Python or anything else that I need to load other stuff. I feel lucky to have stumbled through the "flash" updater. Consider me the voice of the average computer user in this capacity.

Tools owned (and know how to use) :
TGB (particle effects), GIMP, garageband (music), batch manipulaters, DAZ (a 3d character thing, plus lots of models and animations), and Bryce 3D. Oh, and just about all the Reiner's sprites, compiled into sheets with uniform background colors.

How many people own TGB?

Time available--I've got at least a few hours a week.

Structure:
I can be one of the artists, if my work is polished enough for whoever is the Lead.

I vote Clint for either Project Lead or Programming Lead.

I'm still sticking up for "one group."

You know, we're going to naturally gravitate to what we do anyway. Are we going to unify and do one project, or rely on friendly competition to resurrect this industry. That's the way I see it.

Clint- I'm changing my view to creating a new game, either a casual or some other title. The "other title" option would have to be a really small concept that can be easily expanded by the use of level design... i guess a platformer or something. Wasn't there a lemmings/sheep thing we were talking about at one point?

Edit:

Steveth45- Yeah, if people think that teams will be better, then I'll help where I'm needed (but my exp says 1 grp). LightGames is cool. Somebody grab it before a squatter does. I like your approach to marketing, and it definitely doesn't disallow Mack and Ereon burning CD's and stocking shelves.

[This message has been edited by JeTSpice (edited October 31, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by JeTSpice (edited October 31, 2007).]

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by JeTSpice:

How many people own TGB?

One example why it would be good to let multiple teams develop organically, as with the speed game competitions, is that we don't all share the same tools, nor could everyone afford TGB, or even be running a Windows machine capable of using TGB. I think it is a great tool for some people, and those who can work with that environment, could/should band together to make a game.
On top of having different visions and taste, we aren't going to be able to agree on a particular platform, game engine, programming language, etc. Even if we do, it will leave many people out in the cold, probably a majority, regardless of what is agreed on.

------------------
+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by JeTSpice:
LightGames is cool. Somebody grab it before a squatter does.


Too late . I think maybe we could come up with a better name, though. Suggestions?

------------------
+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
I don't own Torque Game Builder, but I'm fairly decent with 2.5D work (2D sprites that look 3D) 2D textures and particel effects, and I'll be the first to admit that 2D is FAR easier to make stuff for. I wouldn't mind working as an artist, and it would be much more conduscive to my schedule (which fluctuates highly depending on my amount of homework).

------------------

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Ah, by the way, an idea for a game just hit me. Did any of you ever play Captain Bible and the Dome of Darkness? I think that it, Saints of Virtue, Catechumen, Ominous Horizons, and Victory at Hebron were the only games that I ever saw at a Christian bookstore. It's an adventure type game where you played a character named Captain Bible. Pretty much you faced these robots that were a part of thise thing called the Dome of Darkness that had taken over the city. You gathered verses for your Bible from various verse posts around the level and then, when you attacked a robot, it would throw a lie out at you, and you'd have to select the proper verse to combat it. After that you would do a little fight mini-game the destroy the robot, which could also be either automated (To make it easier) or hidden altogether (for those who decided they didn't like the already very tame violence at all). Pretty much you wandered through these different areas, exploring rooms and in every room there was either nothing, a robot of some sort, a trap, or a chaple where you could pray for faith (your level of health) and request special items (light for dark areas, shield of faith to absorb a certain amount of hitpoints), helmet of salvation(to light up any trapped rooms a bright red so you didn't walk into them) and such. Then, at the end of each area, there was a decieved person who you would go through a conversation with, and use a combination of loving discussion and proper verses in order to free them from the power of the Dome serving robot that had taken them over.

I was thinking we could do an adventure/action hybrid like this possibly. It would help teach scripture, possibly logic/apologetics (during the conversation parts) and also combine exploration/puzzles type play with action. Just an idea, and if we're going to rework other projects first then it's somewhat irrelevant, but just an idea.

P.S. I think the website idea is good one, that way we can have a place where anyone can find our games, but I'd also like to keep the options open to be able to put the games to disk and distriute them to churches and shops and such if the opportunity is presented. Most of your church going folks (meaning non-youth)aren't going to hunt around for sites like that, and I think it might be benefical to distribute to that crowd (parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc)

------------------

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
Here's another game idea. Red Rover. You've got a bunch of good guys on the left of the screen, and another mob of bad guys on the right. There might be some obstacles in the middle. Then they fight. You control them like an RTS. When a character is "killed," he actually joins the other team, giving a different dynamic to the play.
PFC

Member

Posts: 29
From: Canada
Registered: 10-16-2007
honestly every time I go away from the computer and think something up, I come back to see that its already posted....
yes I am volunteering-I can do networking in python/vb(prefer python), I can do openGL(3d), I can do pygame(SDL/2d,though I'm better at 3d).

I don't have tgb, and unfortunately it isn't an option for me for a while, its not that I don't want it, its just not for me for now

as for game ideas...Ereon, I was working on the game design for a personal project(mmorpg/adventure) and it was practically identical to what you just said... just replace the robots with spirits...lol I think that idea would work well on a level based game (easier to develop with a team...)

lol JetSpics, that actually has good potential for a very small yet addictive game...

now as for teams
I think that the more focused the team(s) are, the more quality and speed work we can do, but at the same time, not everyone works the same way or on the same things using the same tools... perhaps a small number of groups wouldn't be too spread out to do good quality work, yet still diverse enough to make the best of the talent we all have

for example, the red rover game could be produced in two weeks (at a high polished level) with three people: someone who is experienced in working with graphics and user I/O(any programming language/game engine, would make the skeleton of the game), a graphics person(characters, animations,background graphics,obstacles graphics,menue graphics...) and a sound person. this would let everyone use tools they can use

as for an adventure game, again, the same structure could be used, adding level makers(scipts/map makers). this would simply require a format/standard for making levels/accessing stats. in this case, a totally different game engine or programming language could be used, a good quality game could be done in a month(if its a mini-adventure game) with a team of perhaps 4-5. this could even be used as a foundation for a larger adventure game, or a weekly new level.....

as for making good quality mini-games (we are still mostly thinking mini-games right?) we just need a good schedule set up(this done by this date, that by that date....)

as for the possibility of a multi-player online community project, that would take much longer (trust me I know, I've been working on learning/programming an mmorpg game for 4 years now... when games get lots of players, rules change....programing and game play) so as you can tell I would love to do this one(and I'm planning on having my first release by the end of 08), but I think that smaller projects should be done first (having a website with a good reputation for small games could be good for future multi-player online games)until then, if we have a website for these games, theres nothing stopping us from making a two week project for making a simple 3d world chat program...those are fun and attractive, especially if we have a welcoming Christian community.
But first, we need that community to be there... we need people to play the games, and thats what brings us back to getting small polished games

so does anyone else also think that red rover, and a mini-adventure game could be good candidates for this?

------------------
Heart of a Warrior

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
That idea reminds me of another really fun, simple game I played many years ago.
It was basically capture the flag. It was turn based, and it was on a large-ish map, but you could only see the areas of the map visible by your players who could each move a certain number of spaces each turn, with rocks and foliage blocking your view more or less. It was actually pretty fun, and probably quite simple to program. I suppose the AI would have been the hardest part to program, as everything else would be pretty straight forward. A game like that should be easy enough to make, and kid/Christian friendly. Online play (which I don't think that game had), would be cool, too, and easy enough to implement. I don't think we should make that game exactly, but something that simple and fun is definitely doable.

Edit: I found it here, it's an old DOS shareware game. Them were good times.

------------------
+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

[This message has been edited by steveth45 (edited November 01, 2007).]

TwoBrothersSoftware

Member

Posts: 141
From: Janesville, Wi USA`
Registered: 08-05-2006
Ken and I will donate fully enabled versions of a couple of games we have
done

Figure 15 we've decided on and are still thinking on the other one.

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
Another system in between "turn-based" and "RTS" would generage the effect of those old magnetic football games...

Background: You place the players on the field. Each figurine has a "steering wheel" underneath that you set. You hit a button and the game vibrates, causing the players to move, acting out your strategy.

So, in a computer version of this (I don't mean football, I mean the UI), you have, say 12 seconds to select a group of your player-characters and tell them where to attack, or where to hide or go, or whatever. Then you watch the result. Fun to watch, too.


I thought red-rover war because of the parallels to our fight as Christians--there's no casualties in a spiritual war, only people changing sides. So, you could have demons verses angels, or skull t-shirts vs. cross t-shirts.


Whatever we do should be light and fun. The Christians who play it should have one of those "I bet these guys are Christians" moments. And the non-Christians should have a rare smile on their face, wondering who made such a cool game.

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
JeTSpice: If we do a game with cross shirts and skull shirts or the like I don't think there will be much confusion on whether the makers were Christian or not, and most non-Christians that I've met would probably just roll their eyes. I think we need a less overt approach if our goal is to reach a non-Christian audience as well.

steveth45:That sounds like a pretty cool game idea, it might be something to consider.

------------------

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
yes, good point.
GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Mack and I just had a conversation about a concept that you guys could use.

Patrick says:
hi. was thinking about the CCN project. they're bouncing around ideas. Thing is, they'd prefer to finish up and polish an already existing project. Why not take the Wiinja concept? It's already functional. Reason I'm asking you is because we could offer to let them make a EW version using stills of our characters and the backgrounds that Chow did.
Mackenzie says:
they should make thier own custom graphics for it in relation to the theme, it'll further enchance thier abilities to rely on one another. I told PFC last night that he should help the CCN project and not work on Nightmare models for us
Patrick says:
ok. The main reason I considered EW was cuz I'm having trouble coming up with a Christian theme for Wiinja. The obvious one is an angel fighting demons on a spiritual plane...but that's so close to EW why not use those existing assets?
Mackenzie says:
how about a Christian in Roman times in an arena. has to use a sword to deflect arrows and rocks being shot at him
Patrick says:
Getting pelted with stuff and never directly fighting back? I was thinking about using arrows instead of throwing stars earlier. Only reason I didn't like it cuz it's fakish. But I don't suppose realism need be a major factor. The difficult part is working in a story.
Mackenzie [ED|CORP] says:
start with rocks, then go to daggers, then arrows, then a boss fight with a gladiator, then a chariot throwing a net, then a chariot throwing a net while someone throws rocks, then daggers, then arrows, then a final boss fight with lions
Patrick says:
I was going to suggest comic-book style panels between levels [along with voice overs]. [Oh, and I'd suggest having the lions be earlier on and human opponents at the end]
Mackenzie [ED|CORP] says:
why need a detailed story? your an early Christian being percuted for your believes, the Ceaser will grant your freedom if you survive the arena
Patrick says:
What, no plot twists? :P How about this: you are a newish Christian that was in the Roman legion. That's why you are a badass with your weapons.
Mackenzie [ED|CORP] says:
Ceaser was your best friend until you became a Christian and refused to worship him, so he threw you to the lions, but he's bound to the rules of the arena, thus if you win = your freedom. same concept as yours
Patrick says:
[Not quite.] Ceasar has scheduled you to fight against former buds in the military. [The first level opens immediately with action and the narrator, the player character, talking briefly about what is happening.] In-between levels there are flashbacks to how everything came to be, showing the friendship and then the conflict over religious belief. The "final boss" is a fight between a former friend and the main character. The trick is that in order to win the game you have to wound him and survive but not kill him. [But Caesar then calls for the player character to kill his opponent.] The plot twist is that the character would rather lay down his life and not kill his friend. But the rules state that the loser must be killed. Caesar is about to give the thumbs down to the character but the crowd is so moved by what has happened that he changes his mind. Now that I think of it it's kind of like Gladiator [movie] with a historical Christian twist.
Mackenzie [ED|CORP] says:
they could do it with Mii style graphics
Patrick says:
Which would be good if they can ever get it on Wii. Although from what Scott said Nintendo is very wary of Christian games since many Japanese see Christianity as intrinsically divisive.
Mackenzie [ED|CORP] says:
I was thinking more on the aspect that'd it'd be easier for them to achieve
Patrick says:
Agreed.

A key component is that the player character is being persecuted for being a Christian. In the context of the story the very basic basics of the Gospel can be interwoven into conversation, but only when it makes sense! The major thing is that the story cannot devolve into long sermons if the intention is to reach a general audience. A good story thrives on personal conflicts. During the combat scenes with humans there can also be back-and-forth dialogue that keeps the story moving.

That was a major issue with Eternal War: Shadows of Light; essentially the story and the game did not overlap too much. Yes, Mike the Angel was fighting demons but the story never moved forward during actual gameplay, only during cutscenes. Looking back, I suppose that there could have been sound triggers placed inside the maps. These sounds would be narrative between Mike, the kid whose mind you are in, and the demons. But the game was pretty much finished when I came onboard at TGS. Anyway...

Besides having a "everyone is happy ending" there is the potential to have the player character lose his life in order to save his friend. The ending scene is with this friend character walking the streets pondering what happened. People congratulate him but this just shames him. He then overhears some other Christians discussing in low tones "what happened to the new martyr". The ending is with this character asking this group of Christians "I want to know more about these strange beliefs that would cause someone to save me, his enemy." The beginning of the ending credits has a web link to discuss the "making of" this game, where the historical basis and the Gospel will be presented more fully for those interested. That way, a seed is planted in the player's mind but they're not beat over the head with the Bible. The seed may take time to grow but if they're immediately interested we offer resources outside of the game.

Artwise: I was reading the post-mortem for Puzzle Quest and apparently their art style got a lot of positive feedback from market testing. Even though the game mechanics stayed mostly the same throughout the entire development cycle they estimate the change in art style increased N. American consumer interest 3 to 4 times as much. So I'd suggest checking out that style for inspiration.

[This message has been edited by gump (edited November 01, 2007).]

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
This is an excellent concept! Nice storywork! You're interweaving of the Christian theme is a storytelling skill that not even the best in Hollywood can craft.

On graphics, I'm willing to purchase this:

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/shop/itemdetails/-/?item=798

I have battlepack animations, and can keep up the polish with 2d backgrounds. The cut scenes might prove a challenge, but, it would definately look polished. And it'd be a pretty quick art pipeline.

I have a hunch that most everybody else likes cartoons. In this case, I'll be *some* help, but not as effective because I don't have illustrator or flash, nor would I know how to use them.

If you want, I can make a mock-up using a realistic knight so it can be decided if this approach is feasable or desireable.

Anyway, cool story idea.

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
In order to have the comic-like cutscenes be AAA quality I would suggest some form of animation and camera movement to coincide with the voiceovers and sound effects, although the assets themselves are mostly static. See the Max Payne series or Monster Madness for good examples.

[This message has been edited by gump (edited November 01, 2007).]

charlie

Member

Posts: 26
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: 08-19-2007
I'll see if I can stick my foot in my mouth again here.

[EDIT: Added Note]
NOTE: I started writing this back when the Magnetic Footbal post was up. By the time I got done there were several other comments, including gump's great game idea. This is not in response to any of that.
[EDIT: End of note.]

I really think gump's list of questions for doc 1 (which were very close to what I meant to be asking in my first post) are something that need to be decided on. If we're trying to make a game for Christians, then new possibilities open up to us while others close. Trying to reach both at once will just bog a product down. I'm not saying this from a purely spiritual sense; I mean this from the most practical marketing sense. One of the number one rules of marketing is to focus on your "ideal customer". You may catch other customers along the way - that's fine. But if you limit your product to reach other markets, you'll most likely lose out on both. This is just a basic marketing technique that I think we need to keep in mind, once we (or any specific project) figure out who they want to target. Pick the smallest target possible, and then pull out all the stops to make that one target (and sometimes only them) happy.

I personally believe that many US Americans don't have maps... sorry, I mean that many Christian target audiences are not being met by games out there. This doesn't mean that I think we should exploit them because "they'll buy anything" nor that we should throw out the possibility of making high-quality games targeting a secular audience, but that if we take the time to understand what these groups need, we can create titles that they will be happy to play, and will meet a need. If we try to stretch ourselves too thin, we'll run the risk of making nobody happy. (On the one side you have Jet's comments about non-Christians rolling their eyes, and on the other side you have Christians who didn't learn anything about Spiritual warfare because we watered it down too much.)

As usual, this probably sounds like I'm being overly critical. Please don't take it that way. I'm just trying to say that teams need to figure out a target first and then stick with it. If the target is Christian, be un abashedly Christian (NOT preachy), be encouraging to Christians, applicable to Christians, and inspiring to Christians.

In other news: after my last post I gave Simon up at Brethren a call. He's going to put together a bullet list of the requirements and suggestions they'd like to see for posting a game on their portal. I still think that's a great place where this community can provide a helping hand to the industry, and have an actual impact as well. Sort of that whole "three-strand cord" thing. We've got an opportunity to leverage an existing site targeting our audience who are already providing marketing for us, and they need more content. I just can't see us going wrong with that. We can still create our own site, if we want a place to give them away from, or create a CD - but leveraging Brethren, if we're already creating casual titles applicable to them, seems too good to pass up. Are their specific concerns with that?

One final thought on an already overly long post. When I mentioned "Christian game mechanics" above, I wasn't meaning things like having "Prayer" or "Miracles" as options in the game. That's content. The mechanic behind that could be pressing buttons at the right time, or multiple choice stories, but term "Prayer" could be replaced with any other content and the mechanic would be the same. When I talk about "Christian game mechanics", I'm talking about designing gameplay that rewards Christian character values (games are all about teaching behaviors anyway), and discourages poor character choices. So basically, creating gameplay that encourages team work, self-sacrifice, planning for the future, creativity, constructive as opposed to destructive, team success as opposed to individual success, short term loss for long term gain as opposed to instant gratification. I'm not trying to make any new claims about what is a "Christian game" or not. For those that know me, they know I've been a big opponent of even using that term since the early days. I'm just trying to say that I think this is a great area for us to stretch our creative juices as game designers, and look for opportunities to create games that are original and interesting at more than just the content level. I'm trying to present a challenge here, not a criticism, if that makes sense.


[This message has been edited by charlie (edited November 01, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited November 01, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by charlie (edited November 01, 2007).]

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
okey doke. I've said everything i want to say. get ahold of me if you can use me.
Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
So, what are you guys doing?
graceworks
Member

Posts: 455
From: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Registered: 03-03-2001
quote:
Originally posted by JeTSpice:

On graphics, I'm willing to purchase this:

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/shop/itemdetails/-/?item=798


Just sharing another resource:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=pappy411

Tim

------------------
Called by God. The passioned plea of a father. The journey awaits at Jarod's Journey.
Participate in the Parables, The Interactive Parables

GWI 1up | GWI MySpace

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
A free tool for web conferencing:

http://1videoconference.com/

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
So what's the concensus? What do you guys want to do? Do you guys want to start an entirely new project, work on the framework of some existing one, or what? I've talked about my idea and now I'd like to hear what all of you have to say, what you'd be willing to commit to, and then we can move from there.

------------------

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
My vote is for this:

As many as will get behind it and submit to the Leaders, a singular project. And for those inclined to work on their own projects or in small groups, an invitation to coat-tail off the momentum, and help sustain it, staying in communication, posting updates, rallying, etc.

The project will employ the skills and talents of all involved--if to organize, plan, or administrate, then to do that, and if to create works of art or music then to do that. If to program, then program, if lead, then lead.

The Leaders should decide everything after that, taking counsel from the volunteers.

People who volunteer will whole-heartedly commit to the concept of working together to create a series of polished titles and demos to be given away for free on websites and in stores and outlets, all for the sake of bolstering the christian video gaming industry.

They should not volunteer if they first want to see what game is being made.

With that, I nominate Mack as Project Lead, and Clint as Lead Programmer. These two are already in place as leaders, as their status of 'moderator' reflects.

If they accept and there's no objections, then they can counsel together as to what game to make, what engine to use, the look of it, etc.

I also nominate Charlie as administrator, to oversee setting up all the communication, ftp, etc., to create organizational procedures and pipelines.

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
I'm willing to dedicate whatever time I have to programming, design, and art, providing I know the programming language. I'll work whenever I can on whatever the leaders need me to do, just give me a hollar. As for organization I'd like to help wherever I can, but I just don't know enough about internet communication/collaboration to do anything other than setup a teamspeak server, which is already taken care of if Gump's offer to set up a channel still stands.

------------------

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
XX Teamspeak server:

72.188.80.157

Email me at pfrye at xrucifix.com if you need it for a specific time, since I do not leave this PC running 24/7.

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
Wow an eye opening thread. I'm coming in on this quite late, I have been trolling for a few days and having felt really challenged about this very topic recently, I wanted to see what other peoples views were before I posted.

A while ago I came to the conclusion that the Christian Games industry is really stagnant. It had some recognition a while ago, and a few good games which seemed to raise the profile, but as a whole, a lot of damage has been done. I totally agree that something has to change, and we need to do something about it.

The very reason for me enrolling on a Game Development Degree wasn't to get into the secular games industry, or to polish my programming skills. I wanted to learn how to make AAA titles, I wanted to know about 3D engine design and nice shader effects so that I could be a part of a AAA Christian Gaming title. Like a lot of you, it's been a dream and passion of mine for many years. Now I am in my final year and in 8 months will be looking for an industry job. I had anticipated that maybe there would be a Christian Game company that I could work for, but this isn't a reality right now.

So right now I am working on my final year project (a UV Mapper), and working on my portfolio. I wanted to create a really good casual title for my portfolio and think that I could tie it in with this little venture.

I suppose I am putting myself up as a project leader. The game is going to get written regardless (i need it for my portfolio), but if anybody would like to no more, or help out then let me know.

What you guys are doing here is really good. I'll be praying for each individual project, that God's hand will be on them all, that He will provide the resources and as a result will kick some life into this stagnant industry.

Be blessed guys!

------------------
"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler

christo
Member

Posts: 75
From:
Registered: 07-12-2004
I have been watching this thread for a while myself. Not sure how much time I could donate but I am willing to donate some of my unfinished/abandoned projects if you want to polish them into something you can use.

One of the projects is the 2D RPG engine I made a while back when I was learning how to use GDI++. This project is already in the showcase with the source code. This needs a lot of work in various areas but could be a starting point. If you need some help with the "script" it uses let me know.And if it doesn't work at all some of the older versions which I kept do(there was a problem with some of the versions that had music on some computers).

I could donate my sudoku solver if you want it. it works fine though the GUI could probably be improved. It works by using a dictionary that has all the possibilities for a single row.The path to the dictionary will probably need to be changed since I think it is a hard coded path.

Lastly I could donate my Trading Card Game LBD which I have mentioned in the weekly updates thread. No 1 player mode but the 2 player mode has all of the game rules implemented that I came up with(untested).I can also include the ideas I wrote down for future cards. Last executable I posted is here:
http://home.earthlink.net/~silentlightning/Version15Bin.zip

For all of these I can provide the source code(all in VB.NET 2005) and maybe answer any questions about them. And I am ok with it if these are used in something completely different from the original concept.

If I get the time to help I mostly work in VB.Net(2005) though I know a few other languages to a lesser degree. Most of my game programming skills I got from working on the projects that I am offering to donate. My best skill(I think) is working with GDI++. May eventually learn to use a 3D engine though this hasn't happened yet.

Tools
Visual Studio Express Editions
SharpDevelop

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
I've been silent, but not absent. I've been thinking and praying and talking it over with my wife, and just really trying to figure out what role I should take in this current push.

quote:
Originally posted by D-SIPL:
So right now I am working on my final year project (a UV Mapper), and working on my portfolio. I wanted to create a really good casual title for my portfolio and think that I could tie it in with this little venture.

I suppose I am putting myself up as a project leader. The game is going to get written regardless (i need it for my portfolio), but if anybody would like to no more, or help out then let me know.



I wanted to step in here, and say that I wholeheartedly support D-Sipl as the project leader instead of myself. I'm way too busy with other things at the moment (real life things -- not game development), and I don't have the time or energy to be a good leader at this point -- I'm just tapped out for now.

I really think that a project needs to have the kind of leader who is not always waiting on his team. Someone who intends to get the project finished, whether or not anyone is alongside him. Much of my hesitation has been that I currently feel unable to offer that level of leadership, but it sounds like D-Sipl can.

--clint

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
I also have been watching this thread but have been caught up in the things of life.

I think the original idea is a fantastic one! But what happened?!?

Is the idea a compilation cd or another ccn community project?

If its a project, I'm not so sure I agree with asking for a firm commitment from contributors before the project is even designed. Seems like it might cause a lot of hurt feelings late if someone jumps ship because they just don't agree with the way the project is heading. I can say, I'm committed to this community and am willing to contribute my resources to something that will glorify God, as He gives me time and strength to do it.

Maybe I'm a little gun shy, but I really don't want to pour my life into something that is going to peter out, or frankly that will suck at the end. Not saying that it will.. but I need a firm design before making a firm commitment.

On the other hand, if the cd is still a go, I would like to submit Finding Adina for inclusion when it's finished by this Christmas.

@charlie - some great words of wisdom in your tangents. (Sorry I can't comment more, but maybe we should break those out into new threads and discuss)

@d-sipl - I love your energy! I'd say, go for it! Let's see if we can get a rock solid design for the project.


------------------
Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited November 05, 2007).]

Mack

Administrator

Posts: 2779
From:
Registered: 01-20-2001
quote:
On the other hand, if the cd is still a go, I would like to submit Finding Adina for inclusion when it's finished by this Christmas.

Regardless how this turns out I'll still be producing (x1000) DVDs to be handed out. Other than my own titles the following developers have given me permission to put thier games on as well:

+) Rebel Planet: Axys
+) Brethren: Victory at Hebron and Light Rangers
+) Thrid Day: Captain Saint

If anyone else is interested in adding thier demo to the DVD, drop me an email.

Also, D-SPIL would make a good team leader. I vote for him as well.

------------------

PFC

Member

Posts: 29
From: Canada
Registered: 10-16-2007
@D-SIPL: do you have a plan for this game or are you still working on the brainstorming? if I can help I would like to (I just need to know what I can help with)

------------------
Heart of a Warrior

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
Okay, D, I'm behind you. Let us know what you want.

SamW3 - Yes, the goal is still to help bolster the Christian gaming industry through a CD (and also not to rule out web distribution.) Mack will need a few titles. It's been my push to have everyone pool together and submit their talents to a leader who can accomplish the goal. There's nothing prohibiting anyone from joining later, or creating their own project. But to ward off "hurt feelings," people should come to the project with no pre-conceived ideas other than they're going to make a small polished title that will go on a CD to help bolster the industry. Even after viewing a design doc, lots of things can change and feelings will get hurt if they are attached to ideas.


All-
Each person should prayerfully consider (like Clint) whether they're able to help and in what way. They should count the cost and be realistic. If they have not yet created a title, they should consider lending their talents to a developer who has created a title. If they have created a title, they should step forward and lead a team. Each person who feels compelled to help out should help out in the way that they usually do, not promising things that they cannot deliver, nor holding back provision for the project.

charlie

Member

Posts: 26
From: Portland, OR, USA
Registered: 08-19-2007
At moment I feel committed to complete Finding Keepers. There's not a lot more to do, but it will still take a fair amount of Clint and my effort.

As such, I'm not up to leading another project until I get that one done. However, if people want to volunteer to help on it, I'm sure things could wrap up faster. At the moment our big lacking area is art. Well, that and some bugs / issues with TGB. Basically, we need some better art for the menu scenes and cutscenes.

On the other hand, if people are just looking for some casual game ides, I'd be up for writing up a design doc for any one of the pile of casual games I've been working on.

As a final thought, if the community is going to work on a project, and especially something in the causal arena, I'd strongly suggest making it based on a highly modifiable engine. For instance, Clint has made good progress on making a fairly generic platformer "engine" for TGB. He's been playing with porting Finding Andina into it (BTW Sam, is that what you are moving forward with, or still using SpriteCraft?), likewise, we made the David Lancaster game in it, and it might be easy (at least easier than starting from scratch) to transfer Bible Dave into it. If we get a good platformer engine going there, we'd have the ability to pop out those kinds of games rapidly. Having a suite of common engines would be a great boon to this site, and certainly help new people to this site get up to speed on creating games as well.

That's all to say, I'm seconding JetSpice's first post waaaaay back at the beginning of this thread, that we ought to make a platformer. And if we want to make a platformer, we should make and engine and an editor first, and make the game through that. And what would be even cooler would be to make it playable on a web page. But that's probably just me dreaming...

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
Thanks for your replys people!

The game I am creating is written in C++ and uses the Allegro library. For people starting out the code is small enough to be able to follow right now. It would be quite good to maybe have some tutorial writers to follow the project. If we have somebody who maybe couldn't commit entirely to writing code but could bang out a quick tutorial for beginners to follow some of the stuff being implemented that would be cool. This would mean that we can add some valuable articles to CCN, and in put some life back into this community as well. It helps to motivate people into getting involved.

We would near artists and sound people too. People wanting to help with the game design are also welcome. The bible says in Psalm 133:1-3 that where there is unity, God commands a blessing! If we want this industry to be blessed, we have to work together.

I have
posted
the game I have planned.

If we keep united as a community, we're sure to succeed.

------------------
"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler

[This message has been edited by D-SIPL (edited November 06, 2007).]

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
@charlie - porting Finding Adina to TGB has proved to be a daunting task, effectively because it would be a reimplementation instead of a port. But SpriteCraft is closed source and has bugs. So, Clint and I have decided to keep it in C# and write a SDL.net shim that implements the salient aspects of SpriteCraft.

------------------
Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

JeTSpice
Member

Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
Charlie, I'm getting behind D-Sipl. After you and Clint get Finding Keepers done, let's all start working on a platformer.

After I see what D-Sipl needs in terms of graphics from me, I might possible be able to do some cut scenes for you in DAZ or something. Quite possibly model fish in 3d, too.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
This is probably pretty late, and mostly exploratory, but who here has Facebook and who here would be interested in developing a game for facebook? Facebook provides a developer's kit and it's mostly just php.

I have nothing now and just wondering who'd be interested in working on it, and who'd be interested in playing, say, a 2d turn-based rpg based on spiritual warfare concepts.

------------------
Q.E.D.

Realm Master

Member

Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
I make pong. I make pong good. I make holy pong. Well, I make fun pong. Holy pong is somethign else.

Me re-make good pong game. Show all here taht I still worth something.

ooga ooga!

------------------
yeah, im a little crazy
Check out my crazy sig that I made:


PFC

Member

Posts: 29
From: Canada
Registered: 10-16-2007
I use facebook... haven't taken a look at the developer thing for it yet though...

and pong is soomuch fun!
lol I remember making a simple 3d pong game in blender...

------------------
Heart of a Warrior

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
A widget version of Immortal Pongbat would be cool:

http://pongbat.sourceforge.net/

Plus I've long had ideas of how that concept could be expanded.

Realm Master

Member

Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
Okay, so sorry I'm jumping in this late but:
I'm open for anything you guys need...
'cept coding, I don't know python...

I can do some 2d art, I can help with level/game design...
I'd try 3d animation, but... Blender was too confusing...
I could do it in MS3d, but I don't have the whole list of compatable 3d model types...

------------------
yeah, im a little crazy
Check out my crazy sig that I made: