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evanescence? – supercoder

supercoder

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are they christian? they played them at church couple times

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bennythebear

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i don't think they are. i'm not saying they're evil, but i'm pretty sure they're not a "Christian" band.

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MastaLlama

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the following is from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evanescence


quote:

Labeling controversy

Originally promoted in Christian stores, the band eventually made it clear they did not want to be considered as part of the Christian rock genre. Wind-up Records chairman Alan Meltzer issued a press release in April 2003 asking for the band's music to be removed from Christian retail outlets.

During a 2003 interview with Entertainment Weekly, Ben Moody stated, "We're actually high on the Christian charts, and I'm like, What the f--k are we even doing there?" This seemed to go against earlier sentiments by Moody that "We hope to express in our music that Christianity is not a rigid list of rules to follow..." and also "The message we as a band want to convey more than anything is simple—God is Love." This has led to criticism of the band within the Christian community, even more so given that the band themselves approved of the plan to distribute Fallen to the Christian market. Terry Hemmings, CEO of Christian music distributor Provident, expressed puzzlement at the band's about-face, saying "They clearly understood the album would be sold in these [Christian music] channels." In the wake of the controversy, "Bring Me To Life" was shed by many Christian radio stations; the song was Top 5 on Radio & Records' Christian Rock Top 30 one week, and completely gone the next. Ex-vocalist and keyboardist David Hodges eventually left the band over the controversy, with other members stating that he had been pulling them in more of a Christian direction than Lee and Moody were comfortable with.

When asked by Billboard in 2006 if Evanescence was a "Christian band," Amy Lee responded, "Can we please skip the Christian thing? I'm so over it. It's the lamest thing. I fought that from the beginning; I never wanted to be associated with it. It was a Ben thing. It's over."


ArchAngel

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That pretty much sums it up. Not entirely sure what they wanted with their songs, but it's clear they don't want to be associated with CCM, which isn't unchristian, persay.

But, Nightwish is a better band.

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JeTSpice
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From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
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Sounds like he was "unequally yoked."
steveth45

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From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
I understand Ben and Amy's sentiments exactly. That's kind of how I've felt the last few years going to CGDC. Ostensibly, CGDC is about Christians who develop games which may or may not include "Christian games" (whatever that means) or games aimed at the Christian market. Instead, its pretty much a pow-wow for big players in the "Christian Game Industry." The Christian retail market, as exemplified by the Christian retail store chains, is an unholy confluence of disingenuous niche marketing and genuine naiveté. The very last thing I would want to do is put games on the shelves of Christian book stores, unless it was copies of good, mainstream games, so those poor kids who get a stocking full of games from the local Christian trinket shop don't grow up thinking Christianity is synonymous with lame, Jesus-themed retail.

Just being associated with CCM is a mark of shame, not because of Christianity, but because of the sham that is the CCM industry. The attempt to distance themselves from it, makes me think there might be hope for the band (musically, they still need help). It's a profitable niche market, using the "Christian" label to sell stuff to Christians, but a morally and ethically dubious action at best.

The fact that the songs were instantly dropped from Christian radio stations, causing the band to disappear from Christian charts, shows how reactionary and elitist Christian media has become (or, perhaps, has always been). Mainstream, cultural Christianity is a collection of barely recognizable simulacra.

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HanClinto

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Good thread. I liked your insights, Steveth -- and I agree with most of what you've written. Just one small comment...

quote:
Originally posted by steveth45:
Ostensibly, CGDC is about Christians who develop games which may or may not include "Christian games" (whatever that means) or games aimed at the Christian market. Instead, its pretty much a pow-wow for big players in the "Christian Game Industry."


Really?

I mean, I know you and I were anticipating that kind of pow-wow this past time at the CGDC, but I thought that we were pleasantly surprised, that it didn't feel that there was very much high-end pow-wowwing as we feared. You and Willie and Albert and a number of other people are primarily mainstream video game developers. Jay Moore was there too, and I felt he brought a ton of great advice and insight and guidance to the conference. As far as "big players in the 'Christian Game Industry'" -- Troy didn't show up this year (admittedly, that was due to health issues), and then the next biggest names were probably Scott Schuller and Tim Emmerich.

If Garage Games and John De Margheriti had showed up, it would have been an even bigger representation of non-Christian-retail-chain guys.

Just counting noses of people-actually-getting-things-done at the conference, it seems like it would be a tossup between people making category 1 and 2 games (explicitly Christian), versus people making category 3 and 4 games (not-explicitly Christian). That's just from what I remember though -- I could be wrong.

There was some good representation of the Christian retail market -- certainly. I don't want to deny that -- that's always been a huge part of the CGDC, and I don't anticipate that changing. I just remember that you and I were worrying that it would be too focused on the Christian game developers, but I thought that we were happy with the response that it had just among Christian game developers as well.


I just don't want to slam down too hard on the CGDC as being some sort of rally for a "bastion of hypocrisy" or anything. Maybe you weren't intending to communicate that, but I just wanted to clarify.


All in all, good post though. Very sharp, but important criticism.

In Christ,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited October 08, 2007).]

supercoder

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regional cgdclubs at least 3 4 times a year would be could. then regional grps could be repd at cgdc. no big names wouldshow 4 the grp meets

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GUMP

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From: Melbourne, FL USA
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Distancing oneself from CCM is not a bad thing. Switchfoot, for example, is doing just this. Being considered part of CCM is almost like wearing constraints on how you're allowed to further the Kingdom of God. But how is it hypocritical to distance yourself from a band which publicly says, "What the f--k are we even doing there?"

Also, I believe many devs target Christian bookstores because that's the only financially feasible distribution channel within their reach. I believe most would prefer to avoid Christian bookstores, but getting into Gamestop quite frankly is not going to happen without the backing of major players. Most people I know would prefer to avoid Christian bookstores but they feel "stuck" and without any other option.

supercoder

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meet @ church rec room maybe i dont know.

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Calin

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Well even if they (Evanescence) use Christian lyrics/symbols for selfish reasons the Gospel still gets preached and we should be happy about it.

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[This message has been edited by Calin (edited October 08, 2007).]

MastaLlama

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Posts: 671
From: Houston, TX USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Calin:
Well even if they (Evanescence) use Christian lyrics/symbols for selfish reasons the Gospel still gets preached and we should be happy about it.



Hrm, I both agree and disagree with what you said. I agree that "the Gospel still gets preached and we should be happy" but I disagree when I think about it long enough because Evanescence is giving a bad example/witness of a Christian which can turn more people away than bring people to Christ.

Think about a restaurant. If it looks nasty on the outside, not many people will want to eat in the inside, regardless of how good the food is.

Now, I know, someone could argue that their attitude and way of life can draw more non-Christians to listen to their music and hear the Gospel. But, if Evanescence is using the Gospel selfishly, who's to say they won't use it incorrectly to help sway non-Christians even farther away from God? In a sense, I think this is what they are doing. Honestly, why would I need a God when you (Evanescence) have Him but you're still doing all the same things I'm doing. There's no room to "talk the talk" without a willingness to "walk the walk".

It's a very tricky line to walk but I've found that when I'm in a band, if it's Christian music, then it stays that way and the main goal fo the band is to glorify God. If the band is Secular music, then stay away from religion, it can cause all kinds of problems and confusion.

zookey

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Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by steveth45:
I understand Ben and Amy's sentiments exactly. That's kind of how I've felt the last few years going to CGDC. Ostensibly, CGDC is about Christians who develop games which may or may not include "Christian games" (whatever that means) or games aimed at the Christian market. Instead, its pretty much a pow-wow for big players in the "Christian Game Industry." The Christian retail market, as exemplified by the Christian retail store chains, is an unholy confluence of disingenuous niche marketing and genuine naiveté. The very last thing I would want to do is put games on the shelves of Christian book stores, unless it was copies of good, mainstream games, so those poor kids who get a stocking full of games from the local Christian trinket shop don't grow up thinking Christianity is synonymous with lame, Jesus-themed retail.

Just being associated with CCM is a mark of shame, not because of Christianity, but because of the sham that is the CCM industry. The attempt to distance themselves from it, makes me think there might be hope for the band (musically, they still need help). It's a profitable niche market, using the "Christian" label to sell stuff to Christians, but a morally and ethically dubious action at best.

The fact that the songs were instantly dropped from Christian radio stations, causing the band to disappear from Christian charts, shows how reactionary and elitist Christian media has become (or, perhaps, has always been). Mainstream, cultural Christianity is a collection of barely recognizable simulacra.


HALLELUJIA MY MAN I AM IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH YOU!

In a magazine article last year, Amy Lee said she is still a Christian she doens't like the idea of Evanescence being a Christian band tho---I like their music but their first CD was more hardcore where as The Open Door is more expiramental---still tho they are cool

Arch: Did you know Dark Chest of Wonders by NightWish will be on Guitar Hero 3?

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Calin

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quote:
who's to say they won't use it incorrectly to help sway non-Christians even farther away from God?

true but in that case it wouldn't be the Gospel that is preached. Even real/honest Christians get deceived at times and start going things Christians shouldn't do, however that doesn't negate the good things they said about God prior to stumbling. So the main thing here is that people get to know the Gospel, well that's my point of view at least.

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MastaLlama

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From: Houston, TX USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Calin:
true but in that case it wouldn't be the Gospel that is preached. Even real/honest Christians get deceived at times and start going things Christians shouldn't do, however that doesn't negate the good things they said about God prior to stumbling. So the main thing here is that people get to know the Gospel, well that's my point of view at least.


Oh yes, I agree. The problem I have with it all is people see what you are doing vs. what you are saying and if they don't match then there's possibly a problem. I think this is just apart of our human nature to see the bad in people that are trying to change us.

[This message has been edited by mastallama (edited October 08, 2007).]

steveth45

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Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by HanClinto:

I just don't want to slam down too hard on the CGDC as being some sort of rally for a "bastion of hypocrisy" or anything. Maybe you weren't intending to communicate that, but I just wanted to clarify.

I hope I didn't slander the conference too much by associating it with Christian retail and CCM. I think I had a sunnier outlook when I left the conference. It's hard, I guess I got emotionally caught up in the conference, because I love the people involved and I see their potential. I do feel that some movement was made this year, but it's still my 4th year at the conference, without seeing much in the way of change or growth. The conference was smaller this year, I think due to the fact that the focus is still on Christian games, and the legendary failure of LBG is evident. Hence, no media and no opportunistic wolves.

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D-SIPL

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Evanescence, I thought they were just an emo band who singing about suicide all the time. Meh. I think it's just one of those POD moments. They make a song remotely about something that can be taken as christian, and everyone jumps on the band-wagon, hoping desperately to claim something mainstream and "cool" as "Christian".

I'm not so sure about Christian Bookshops, there is a real reluctance to stock games over here in the UK, largely because few people realise there is a Christian Games Industry. I do believe we need to get some decent Christian Games out their. If everyone pulled their resources together rather then being lone-rangers, we would have more quality titles imo.

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JeTSpice
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We laughed... we cried... we made some games...

* * *

May this post shed some light. I too wish the best for everybody I met at CGDC, and pray for them (you all) often.

There's a scripture (hmm, can't find it yet--if anybody can find it, let me know) that says something like "let preachers make money while preaching. Even though they do it out of greed (or power), the gospel still gets preached." Paul says these guys get their reward on the earth, and they should expect no reward in Heaven. Other than that, scripture does not condemn these people.

There is another scripture that talks about "super apostles" preaching a different gospel (2 Cor 11), who are actually servants of Satan masquerading as servants of righteousness. So, these guys we're to avoid at all costs.

Greedy Preachers and Super Apostles can easily be confused one for another. Although there surely are people who are both, we should be careful not to confuse one for another. We have a propensity to label any Christian person or organization making money as evil, but this is in opposition to what God says. They have received their reward here on the earth and should expect no reward for their efforts in Heaven. We're not to exile them or chastise them.

Sometimes we're so against money that we jump on the opposite band wagon and give free reign in our hearts to anyone who preaches against money. We throw the baby out with the bathwater and allow these super apostles who preach another gospel, steering us whatever way they wish.

Satan will surely inflame our irrational contempt for one group to steer us into another. So look out, yo.

Greedy Preachers and Super Apostles are mixed up in our minds so that we think whoever preaches any little part of the gospel is doing God's work, even if their lifestyle is worldly or they are saying that it's okay to sin because Jesus loves you or whatever other twisting of the Word they can come up with. These types of people are making a mockery of Christ dying on the cross. We shouldn't say "Well, the gospel is being preached." I don't know if this applies to Evanescence, but the man swears publically and has failed the Biblical test to be a church leader. He has no business publically propogating the gospel in any form.

Some people expect to find less evil in a church, or a christian organization but that's not true. There's adulterers, murderers, tax cheats, swindlers. The Bible says that there are wolves among us. For those of us who are keen to the evil around us, we think that there is no good, but you do find more good in a church than elsewhere. There's lots of people working out their salvations, helping to advance the Kingdom of Jesus, showing fruit as the Lord completes them. And in Christian organizations, too, like bookstores or companies which expressly follow Christian principals. There's evil in these places, but there is good too.

There's weeds growing with the wheat, and there's bad fish mixed in with the good fish (to refer to a couple of christan games made by people on this site). And our reaction should be to do good, regardless.

So about Evanescence-- They don't want to be associated with Christian bookstores. But this does not make them righteous.

steveth45

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From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by gump:
But how is it hypocritical to distance yourself from a band which publicly says, "What the f--k are we even doing there?"

I called it reactionary and elitist, not hypocritical. The question in question, so to speak, is a valid one. If Evanescence is trying to transmit a message of God's love to the world, what would they gain from being coupled with CCM? Also, why can't Christian radio stations play mainstream artists if they like the music and message? One day I heard a U2 song on the Christian radio station, then I realized that it was a cover by a "Christian" band. Yep, the only way they'll play mainstream music, is if it's performed by CCM insiders. Is the music sanctified by the lips of those who cater specifically to the Christian market?

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steveth45

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From: Eugene, OR, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by JeTSpice:

So about Evanescence-- They don't want to be associated with Christian bookstores. But this does not make them righteous.

Agreed. But it also does not make them unrighteous, though they were treated as such.

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JeTSpice
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Agreed-- because they opt out of Christian bookstores doesn't make them unrighteous.
supercoder

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quote:
If Evanescence is trying to transmit a message of God's love to the world, what would they gain from being coupled with CCM?
[/B]

i dont know all her songs, but I think shes singing about some dood(z). but maybe not god. do you know any of her christian songs?

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supercoder

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quote:
Originally posted by JeTSpice:
Agreed-- because they opt out of Christian bookstores doesn't make them unrighteous.

maybe christian thing was to get noticed, harder w/ mainstreem
now they are in pop section not christan section at bestbuy by switching.

jars couldve done it after flood song but they stayed christian w/ christian songs after getting the publicity.

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zookey

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From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by supercoder:
i dont know all her songs, but I think shes singing about some dood(z). but maybe not god. do you know any of her christian songs?


A song off of Fallen is called 'Tourniquet' and is about asking God and Jesus to stop your suicide (which is metaphorical for bad decisions)--that happens to be a cover of the same song by Soul Embraced--which Evanescence's drummer is from that band--they covered it to kind of pay homage to that----plus they were initially marketed by their label to Christian book stores---but the band didn't want that---I wouldn't rank them as emo hehe--emo is wearing tight pants and complaining because your parents bought you the wrong color mercedes benz.

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bwoogie

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flyleaf ftw

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~~~boogie woogie woogie~~~

spade89

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hey i use to be a big evanescence band up until i got saved and stopped listening to secular music i thought they were one of those dark gothic type of bands. so...

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TallBill

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What is CCM?

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Calin

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Must be Contemporary Christian music

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[This message has been edited by Calin (edited October 11, 2007).]

Realm Master

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well, seeing mastalama's early post, yeah, that about sums it up. THey don't want us. And, even if they were Christian to begin with, and maybe if they still think they are down somewhere, their not really. God and the Holy Bible (yayz!) tell us not to be ashamed of him (God) so... yeah.
As soon as they said that they weren't a "Christian" band (technically) and they didn't want their stuff labled as "Chrsitan Rock" they lost it.

and yes, Arch (Way up there at the top) Nighwish is awesome.

my really incredibly late and (By now) Irrelviante 2 bucks (I'm tired of cents...)

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ArchAngel

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From: SV, CA, USA
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It's never to late to say Nightwish is awesome.

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zookey

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Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
It's never to late to say Nightwish is awesome.


the only thing is they were kind of jerks to their last female singer---with the new cd they hired a new lady----oh well still good music

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ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
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yeah, they were. According to them, the manager (her husband) and her were taking the band in a direction they didn't want to go.
meh.

either way, I don't think it's the same without Tarja.

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zookey

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Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
yeah, they were. According to them, the manager (her husband) and her were taking the band in a direction they didn't want to go.
meh.

either way, I don't think it's the same without Tarja.


Hehe yeah I haven't heard their stuff post-Tarja --I know she is an indy artist now but I haven't heard her stuff either---either way Dark Chest of Wonders is classic and is the one reason I will get Guitar Hero 3 (at first, GH3 seemed expensive to me in general--but when I heard that oh baby hehe!)

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Tonnyx

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From: Indiana, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Realm Master:
God and the Holy Bible (yayz!) tell us not to be ashamed of him (God) so... yeah.

I don't know where Lee or Moody or anybody's hearts are, and I won't judge on that, but I will point out that being ashamed of God is quite different from being ashamed of his ofttimes foolish followers.

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MastaLlama

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From: Houston, TX USA
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Here's the "open letter" to Tarja
http://www.nightwish.com/en/article/6

quote:
the only thing is they were kind of jerks to their last female singer

I don't know all the details and can't make a call on the rest of the band being jerks to Tarja but I'm glad Nightwish stayed together and found a new singer. Tarja was good and the new singer is awesome too!

I've been in many different bands before and most of them have split up due to creative differences. It's a common thing. Feel free to read the "open letter" and you can have more information about the situation.

ArchAngel

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From: SV, CA, USA
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here are some of their new songs:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=131336182

I don't like the new vocalist as much. Less operaish. Her voice isn't as full.

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zookey

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Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
True true---altho from working with artists I know that sometimes they get heated and act like jerks sometime--will read the letter---probably will listen to the new stuff too but Tarja is what really seperated NW from Evanescence, well now they are probably different anyways since Amy Lee has gone so expiramental LOL---there are some real weird songs on Open Door and I am a dude who likes weird songs!!

With being ashamed of God VS foolish followers--I totally agree---a friend in high school had a lapel pin on her backpack that put it right:

I don't have a problem with God, it is his fan club I can't stand.

Granted, I do get a long with other Jesus Freaks sometimes--although ultra-overt 'Christians' (ie people who push it to gain business contacts or demand acceptance or respect of wrong things they do--modern day Pharisees etc) really grind on my nerves--so I don't blame Evanescence for that although I think it wouldn't hurt them to be more open about it--if nothing else it would be controversial and increase sales amongst fans who may have been hurt by man made religion so I don't see a negative as long as they are intellectual about it and don't go ultra-overboard-shock-rock-just-for-the-sake-of-shock-rock ---look at Marilyn Manson, some of his songs are good but it is drowned out by his immature antics because he wants to shock rock but doesn't realize that being a shock rocker WITH SUBSTANCE is so much more satisfying and actually can enable both you and your fans to grow as people and artists--thus the reason why Jesus was a shock rocker with substance!!

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MastaLlama

Member

Posts: 671
From: Houston, TX USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:

Tarja is what really seperated NW from Evanescence

Are you serious???? I really like both bands but I would never put them in the same genre! I honestly believe their music is nothing alike! Ok, they both have guitars and drums and keyboards and a female singer, but so do country bands!

ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
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well, Tarja was a big different.
Great singer vs. mediocre.

but the songs and especially the lyrics are far different. Evanescence is more pop/rock and Nightwish goes more goth/metal/fantasy.

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zookey

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Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
I will agree the lyrics are different

LMAO country bands are totally different than Evanescence or NW---my goodness neither Ev or NW cover inbreeding on any of their cds LOL JK

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