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CCN's Resident Color Commentator!

on a less religious note, it's been pointed out to me that he uncanningly resembled Emperor Palpatine. Admit it, at times, you expected him to shoot lightning out of his fingers.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:
his statement that everybody outside the RCC isn't fully saved is troubling.
I thought we've past that stage.
His involvement with the Nazi Party when he was young(Hitler Youth) raises eyebrows.

on a less religious note, it's been pointed out to me that he uncanningly resembled Emperor Palpatine. Admit it, at times, you expected him to shoot lightning out of his fingers.

---

Agreed on all counts. It is laughable to suggest any one man can be holier than the rest of the world, much less this jerk. the RCC prolly should actually READ the New Testiment rather than add stuff to it and call it good.

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On the other hand, you might want to prepare for armagedon.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

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i think it's wrong what you guys are doing by accusing/judging this one man.

the man is not saved that is it, i don't see the need for anyone to say anything about this person.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

------------------

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

quote:

---

Because we are frustrated at his purposeful misrepresentation of our God--if he wanted the facts he could take the Bible he is waving in the air and actually read the truth in it instead of making BS up and claiming it is truth according to Jesus---if someone doesn't know something that is innocent and ok--but for them to then make up crap and claim it as gospel truth is decietful and dangerous.

---

why don't you pray for the pope to get saved if it means so much to you instead of insulting him on an internet forum?

quote:

---

I believe this man is a saved, just misled.

---

you can't believe what the catholic church believes and still be saved.
you can't worship angels and say that mary can save you and worship her
,and you can't say that the pope/priests are superior to other people
because of their works,and also say that you need a priest to communicate with GOD (ie. confession),and many more...

what makes you saved is believing in JESUS CHRIST and accepting and recieving him as your personal LORD and savior (that's not what catholics believe)and to accept JESUS CHRIST as your Lord and Savior you will have to deny all other lords you have(a servant can't serve two masters) and apparently you can't do that in catholicism.

------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:
I believe this man is a saved, just misled.

---

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

"Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh."

Open source, open mind.

My Programming and Hacker/Geek related Blog

They don't think Mary saves them, but acts as a middle man.
They don't worship angels, or saints. pray/talk to them, which is kinda creepy, but nothing that denies salvation.

and even if they say popes/priests are superior, how does that remove one's salvation?

Those are misrepresentations of most of the present Catholics.
alot of these confusions are going around.
Catholics think we're nutty and off the rocker (by out standards).
I've had some ask me if we believe in immaculate conception and other such basic topics.

two masters? protestants don't have two masters?
protestants don't obsess about money? romance? cars?

frankly, I'm appalled by your opinions. it's no better than the popes!

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:
I am serious. I can't believe you guys.
Every true catholic I know accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
That's what's important.

---

I hope that because you are right, it's the only thing that matters.
However from what I have discussed with Catholics and learn about this doctrine from testimony of an ex Catholic priest - is that they dont believe in the finished work of Jesus but they need to work out their salvation, even Jesus did die for their sins.

So unless you believe in Jesus and His finished work for the remission of sins you are not saved. Because no one can pay the dept of his own sins nor become holy by works but only by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Let's hope every catholic knows this but I'm afraid their doctrine teaches otherwise.

------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

Bible compared to Catholic doctrine:
http://www.bereanbeacon.org/ThyWordIsTruth_A.html

http://whateverycatholicshouldknow.com

------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:
I am serious. I can't believe you guys.
Every true catholic I know accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
That's what's important.

They don't think Mary saves them, but acts as a middle man.

---

This is a doctrine that directly contradicts scripture: 1 Timothy 2:5

quote:

---

They don't worship angels, or saints. pray/talk to them, which is kinda creepy, but nothing that denies salvation.

---

This directly contradicts Deuteronomy 18:11

quote:

---

and even if they say popes/priests are superior, how does that remove one's salvation?

---

Again, this contradicts 1 Timothy 2:5

quote:

---

Those are misrepresentations of most of the present Catholics.

---

Actually, they are fairly accurate representations of Roman Doctrine. I should know, I was in that church for 20 years.

quote:

---

I've had some ask me if we believe in immaculate conception and other such basic topics.

---

According to Roman teaching, "Immaculate Conception" refers to the conception and birth of Mary, not Jesus.

The fruit of genuine belief in and trust of Jesus as your LORD and Savior will include that your life and practices—and doctrine—will agree with Scripture, not contradict it.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

She told me that she was raised to believe that Jesus was a model to mankind when he died on the cross; and how we should be willing to pay the price for our sins. Effectively, that Jesus died to pay for his own sins.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tallbill:
The fruit of genuine belief in and trust of Jesus as your LORD and Savior will include that your life and practices—and doctrine—will agree with Scripture, not contradict it.

---

The words we say are just words. If the commitment behind them does not exist then there is no commitment. If someone changes the doctrine of scripture, (s)he is (possibly)changing the definition of the everyday Christian words we as believers use.

I once had an argument with a Baptist friend (btw, I was raised baptist). He was saying "If you confess the Lord Jesus Christ" meant (effectively) praying a little prayer and that was it... just words, and Jesus would be your "Personal Savior" and then "Once saved, always saved", would kick in and you could do whatever you want.

I argued that to confess someone as lord is more than just some words. A terrorist can say he pledges allegiance to the country he wants to terrorize but of course the "pledge" is really not there. I continued that there are those who, though they are sincere in saying a pledge of allegiance, do not understand a "pledge" or even what "allegiance" means. They may mean "I'm proud I have a good life in my country.", when they say it.

Arch (if you are interested to know), I would suggest asking your Catholic friends what it means to be a Christian and how does someone get to heaven. You and I both may be surprised at the answer. On the same note, I think we each should examine our own faith in light of scripture, since it both reveals God and communicates His plan for life. But, honestly, even scripture does not save someone, God does.

As for the pope, I see him as more of a political figure, and his actions are the way they are to preserve the Catholic church, in much the same way as our presidents'(prime ministers', kings', etc.) actions should preserve each of our nations.

Its honestly hard to tell if any politician is saved.

God Bless!

------------------
Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited September 06, 2007).]

quote:

---

According to Roman teaching, "Immaculate Conception" refers to the conception and birth of Mary, not Jesus.

---

Hmm, interesting, I grew up in the RCC and never heard it refered to this way, in fact, I was tought it refered to the Birth of Jesus.

EVERY and I mean EVERY orgainized religion has it's quirks. You would be hard pressed to find ANY church ANYWHERE where every Pastor, Priest, and Leader, follow perfectly in Christ's footsteps. Becuase we are human we sin. There are things that I think are wrong about the Catholic church, but also the Baptist, Lutheran, Pentacostal and so on. We are told to pray for our brothers and be an example. We can sit around and talk about what everyone else is doing goofy, or we can get up and write some Christian based games and stuff to spread the good news.

My 2 cents.

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Howdy all! Check out http://art.twobrotherssoftware.com/shs.html, my latest CD.

If you ain't in the forums, you in the againstums :)

And since catholic doctrine denies immidiate salvation in Christ Jesus and say that Christ merely "helps" in the "process"...

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

In the end this is the same as Christians from many of the denominations we represent/come from. You can go to Church and not every single person there truly understands and accepts Christ's actions. I think this is the same in the Catholic Church.

On the other hand, I think the Catholic Church has some fundamental teachings that can put a wedge between people and a personal relationship with Jesus. This saddens me and I hope those people break away and move into a position where they are influenced by people who don't do that.

Does this mean that no Catholic can be saved, I think not. Though I do think it results in more Catholic attendees being un-saved than typical Christian churches.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

quote:

---

I am serious. I can't believe you guys.
Every true catholic I know accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
That's what's important.

---

look at Isaiah 45:22(really like that verse) GOD says that he is GOD and there is no other Savior.

i think this facts by themselves make you unsaved.

but let's look on at what you said next:

quote:

---

They don't think Mary saves them, but acts as a middle man.
They don't worship angels, or saints. pray/talk to them, which is kinda creepy, but nothing that denies salvation.

---

and you said something very interesting after this:

quote:

---

and even if they say popes/priests are superior, how does that remove one's salvation?

---

first of all i think you yourself might have been misled by this popular new false teaching that says you can sill all you want and go to heaven.
which is an absolute deception and far from the truth read the book of hebrews around chapters 7-12 and the first couple of chapters of the book of James. and even in the book of Romans where pauls clarifies the fact that we are saved by faith he right away asks a rhetorical quetion saying

quote:

---

Romans 3:31
Do we then make void the law through faith?GOD forbid:yea ,we establish the law.

---

quote:

---

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins,he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins,and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

---

there is nothing in the BIBLE that either justifies sin or lets people get away with it.

let's move on:

quote:

---

Those are misrepresentations of most of the present Catholics.
alot of these confusions are going around.
Catholics think we're nutty and off the rocker (by out standards).
I've had some ask me if we believe in immaculate conception and other such basic topics.

two masters? protestants don't have two masters?
protestants don't obsess about money? romance? cars?

---

if protestants have two masters then they just like the catholics are unsaved.
but according to what i believe(pentecostal) when you accept JESUS CHRIST as your LORD you are accepting him as your ONLY LORD and ONLY
SAVIOR.

quote:

---

frankly, I'm appalled by your opinions. it's no better than the popes!

---

and from your satements i think you have been misled about salvation yourself and what Christianity means in general.
if there is anything you would like me to clarify please ask.

and i don't understand the comparison you made about what i said and what the pope said.
@everyone else:
jari said:

quote:

---

Let's hope every catholic knows this but I'm afraid their doctrine teaches otherwise.

---

i think what matthew langley said about everyone not being perfect is true.
but as for saying what everyone believes is wrong i don't agree with that.
although the road is narrow there are few who find it the question is which are this few? and i think the answer to that question is people who seek GOD in truth with sincerity and of course humility.

and one thing i in my personal opinion believe is that those who truly seek GOD or who truly have found the way don't despise those who are lost(like the pope in this case) but guide them and rebuke them for their sins and not talk about their sins to someone else behind their back.

i have sinned and fallen short of the glory of GOD ALMIGHTY just like every other human(including the pope) and i don't think that i should talk about others sins as if i have not sinned(at least i try but i have fallen on this too) and i don't think you should do that too.

quote:

---

On the other hand, I think the Catholic Church has some fundamental teachings that can put a wedge between people and a personal relationship with Jesus. This saddens me and I hope those people break away and move into a position where they are influenced by people who don't do that.

---

and i am not saying it's wrong to talk about false teachers if anyone is trying to decieve your brother then i think you should tell your brother so that he won't get decieved but a personal attack on the false teacher(notice i have said attack not rebuking which is a different thing)
in my opinion is wrong.

i can't finish this post without saying that lots of people(even here at ccn) may have been misled about salvation. that is the one thing you really don't want happening .

------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by spade89:

are you serious man??

---

That tone was insulting to Arch---so it is ok for you to 'slam someone on a net forum and not pray for them' on something trivial--but we can't be offended by a blatant misrepresentation of our beliefs?

------------------

quote:

---

Originally posted by spade89:

are you serious man??

That tone was insulting to Arch---so it is ok for you to 'slam someone on a net forum and not pray for them' on something trivial--but we can't be offended by a blatant misrepresentation of our beliefs?

---

and i wasn't the only one who said something like that:
jari said:

quote:

---

I don't know is that a serious opinion or are you just kidding Arch?

---

why are you not offedned with that or why is arch not offended with that ??

and no zookey i didn't start a thread called zookey on an internet fourm and insult zookey so don't compare what you said about the pope to what i said to you.

and you said i blantantly(whatever that means) misinterprated your beliefs
how?? if i did then why don't you explain it to me?
did i say anything personaly offensive to you?

and i didn't slam anyone i just told you the truth. calling someone a jerk
is insulting and in your words slamming saying which is what you said let me quote:

quote:

---

Agreed on all counts. It is laughable to suggest any one man can be holier than the rest of the world, much less this jerk. the RCC prolly should actually READ the New Testiment rather than add stuff to it and call it good.

---

did i say anything like that about anyone?

the closest statement that might sound offensive you found is when i said "are you seriour man?" which is in no way an insult arch is known to be sarcastic and humourous and i have many times in the past taken what he has said literally on many topics(racism,hatred,etc..) and someone like you pops up as if arch can't explain and speak for himself and starts trying to dissect every statement i said to make what i said look bad or at the best misinterpreat it.

and what he said was shocking most born-again believers who know the catholic doctrine automaticaly dismiss it as a false teaching and i found it surprising and showed how surprised i was .

if whay you say is true and what you believe about this topic is true then you would have been trying to show it instead you retracted to defend arch
and take sides with him(i don't know why you did that).

and if i called anyone any names(which i don't think i did) i apologize.
but can you please quote where i called someone any names.

or said anything to attack someones character like what you are doing now,or what you were doing with pope.

stating my shock and surprise is not attacking someones character.

and i didn't talk about anyones character but about what you said.

and don't turn the thread to a personal attack debate thread if you have anything to say to me you can pm me unless you want mack or one of the admins end up closing this thread.

and either you didn't read what i said in my previous post or you read it and decided to change the topic to now let's go back to the topic.

------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Now, I never said Catholic doctrine was just fine. I disagree with on many, many levels. I would never be Catholic due to disagreements not only on doctrine, but it's very structure. I think it's not only flawed, but dangerous.

But, just because your beliefs are off-center doesn't make you unsaved. I'd say every person doesn't have a truly accurate view of God and his Word. We're all off to a degree. It'd seem to be pretty arrogant to claim to have perfect understanding of God's will. I don't believe even Paul claimed that.

Matt summarizes my point pretty well. Not every catholic is a christian, but likewise, not every protestant who attends church and puts money in the offering basket is, either. Not all who cries "Lord, Lord" is.

quote:

---

if protestants have two masters then they just like the catholics are unsaved.
but according to what i believe(pentecostal) when you accept JESUS CHRIST as your LORD you are accepting him as your ONLY LORD and ONLY
SAVIOR.

---

So, salvation is now based on what you do. works.

I don't see how this is much different than catholics.

Frankly, I believe salvation is by the GRACE of God, not by anything we do. And nobody, nothing in heaven and earth (including us) can take that away.
I'm terrible with verse references, but you know the verses I'm citing.

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

But I don't understand, how can anyone serve two masters?
... Catholics submit to "the mother church" and like said before they them self deny salvation in Jesus. So there isnt much left to say but we can only agree that only assurance of salvation is in the finished work of Jesus, in God's grace.
Like you said your self Arch, salvation is based on works, according to the Catholic doctrine.
But you are right, it's GRACE alone not works.

Which is why Catholics should hear the Gospel, that means good news, your sins have been forgiven and you dont have to attend to the mass every sunday in order to be saved.
Because God's love and power is greater than what the Catholic doctrine teaches.

------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tallbill:
As a person lives their life, their life becomes evidence regarding their salvation. As the Holy Spirit works within them to conform them to the image of Jesus Christ, that work starts overflowing from the inside to the outside world. Since it is also the Holy Spirit who inspired the scriptures, and it is the Holy Spirit who is working in the individual, both being works of the Holy Spirit and not of men, both works will tend more and more toward agreement with each other and not toward contradictions against each other. This will show up in their life patterns, in their beliefs, and in the doctrines they hold dear. While it is not impossible for God to save a Roman, the saved Roman will not remain a Roman because to do so would be to submit to doctrines that are in contradiction to the scriptures.

---

I think this is an ideal, not necessarily a reality. Your phrase "not remain a Roman" reminds us that sanctification is not an instantaneous thing. In my experience, God is a patient refiner, and inasmuch as there are saved yet deluded people in Protestant/Reformed denominations whom God is still refining, you could also assume there are those, perhaps even high in the ranks of the RCC in the same position.
I won't judge the pope, since he may be sincerely deluded and perhaps in humbly seeking of God he might realize the truth about the scriptures. From this angle he might be seen as one of the elect still unrefined. I think this was Arch's point.
On the other hand, I pity the man if he has stubbornly and willfully lead countless millions astray. If so, I would think there is a millstone being made that will fit his neck perfectly.
I agree, salvation is by God's grace alone. God gives his grace to the humble, and making up your own spiritual law, calling it God's, and using it for your own gain, is not being humble. BTW, this is also what many televangelists do as well.
Thankfully, however, God also often extends his grace to the foolish and misinformed, like I once was (and perhaps still am).

God Bless!

------------------
Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited September 07, 2007).]

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

EDIT: Ugh, on second thought, i really didn't write "perfect sanctification" in my post, did I. My brain's a bit burned out from work. I had read the whole topic top to bottom and was kind of writing to the whole thing even though I quoted your post. Sorry Bill.. I didn't mean to confuse everyone. I do agree with your well-written post. .. erm.. now I should quit while I'm mildly ahead.

------------------
Sam Washburn

Check out my CCN SpeedGame 2 Blog

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited September 07, 2007).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by jari:
Arch, that last quote wasn't what I said, but it was spade's.

But I don't understand, how can anyone serve two masters?
... Catholics submit to "the mother church" and like said before they them self deny salvation in Jesus. So there isnt much left to say but we can only agree that only assurance of salvation is in the finished work of Jesus, in God's grace.
Like you said your self Arch, salvation is based on works, according to the Catholic doctrine.
But you are right, it's GRACE alone not works.

Which is why Catholics should hear the Gospel, that means good news, your sins have been forgiven and you dont have to attend to the mass every sunday in order to be saved.
Because God's love and power is greater than what the Catholic doctrine teaches.

---

okay. maybe that makes a little more sense.
I apologize. I was tired. and there were a lot of posts.

Catholic believe, i think, that they submit to God through the RCC.
Not only that, God did, after all, say that we are to submit to earthly authorities. The "two masters" isn't that strict, it's about a state of heart.

anyhow, my main point is that we're judging catholics with a much tighter view of law than we apply to ourselves. Protestants will through in a couple vague "works" needed for salvation but still claim to be different.
We should all strive to greater Truth, but there is a point where just because you believe the wrong thing doesn't mean your saved. Just becase, say, we disagree between free will and predestination doesn't mean one is saved and another isn't. One may follow Paul and another Apollos, but we're all brothers.

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

I also have known Catholics that go to a Catholic church but do not in fact submit to their Church like their doctrine states.

Just because someone attends a Church with a certain doctrine doesn't mean they follow all aspects of that doctrine (or any even). Vice Versa, just because someones doctrine states one thing doesn't mean people who attend don't follow different aspects.

Due to the Catholic church having it in their doctrine to submit to others in what I would deem an in-appropriate way I would say they are more likely to serve "two masters" (which seems to be the popular token phrase in this conversation). Inversely I see many Christians that submit to their pastors or church leaders much the same way even though it isn't in their doctrine.

The Church you attend doesn't define you. Remember Church simply means a fellowship of people. It's not the building, it's not the organization, it's simply who you fellowship with. As much as people say denominations (or other religious branches, like Catholics) belong to the entire Church body, you still just fellowship with those you meet with in some building on Sunday (or some other day).

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

First of all, the Pope did NOT SAY that non-Catholic Christians are not fully saved.

What he said was that churches other than the Roman Church are not 'true' Churches. In order to understand this, you have to understand what the "Church" is in the Roman Catholic Perspective. This, however, was not meant to be a commentary on the salvation or faith of non-Catholic Christians.

In the Roman Catholic view "The Church" is a very specific thing, and it includes certain necessary doctrines such as Apostolic Succession, valid sacraments, Magisterium, etc.

when the Pope comments on the nature of a church being a "true Church" it has to do with wether or not they are recognized as having valid sacraments, valid apostolic succession and thus valid magisterial teaching, not wether the people in that church are saved or not.

In the Catholic view the Church has the authority to interpet scripture, and to establish doctrine and dogma. This is what is meant by "the Magisterium" It is the authority of the Church to teach doctrine.

The Magisterial authority of the Church is established by Apostolic succession which is two fold in nature. First apostolic succession is based on the scriptural practice of ordaining church leaders by the laying on of hands. thus in order to have valid church authority, a church has to have an unbroken line of succession of laying on of hands in ordination going all the way back to the original apostles. Secondly Apostolic Succession is dependant on maintaining the correct teaching which was handed down by the apostles originally.

thus, in order to have valid authority as a church in teaching doctrine, and performing a sacrament, a church must have an unbroken line of succession, and must have maintained the original teachings of the apostles.

So, when the Pope says that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true Church and all other Churches are not, but are rather "christian communities" he is not saying that the people are not saved. He is saying that the church organizations do not have recognized authority to teach doctrine, or to perform sacraments.

The one exception to this would be the Eastern Orthodox Church, which while the Catholics recognize them as schizmatic, do generally recognize them as having valid succession, and valid sacraments.

Neither the Catholic Church, nor the Pope teach that protestant Christians are unsaved. They recognize them as part of the "invisible Church" of all believers, but the do not recognize them as part of the "visible Church" which is only the Catholic Church.

Also, the Catholic stance of acting conciliatory towards other religions is often misunderstood as well. When the Pope interacts with other religions, it is not a statement that those religions are valid. It is done out of the belief that people can be lead to the truth better through open relationship and dialogue, than through confrontation and strife.
Further, it was common practice in the history of the church to use other religions as a means of pointing to Christian truths. Think of Paul in Athens making use of the shrine to the Unknown god. He made use of part of the greek's pagan religion to segway to Christian truth. This idea is very prevalent in Catholic thought. Most, if not all false religions have some truths in them, the idea is that through acknowledging those truths, they can be used to turn a person's focus to the truths of the gospel, rather than simply constantly focusing on the confrontations and telling people what is wrong with their beliefs.

Now, I'm not a Roman Catholic, and I don't agree with the Pope that the Roman Catholic Church is the one True Church. However, alot of the division and confusion between protestants and catholics comes from the fact that they are essentially speaking two different languages, and protestants frequently do not bother to try and understand what Catholics actually mean. Often times the ideas put forward regarding catholicism are simply strawmen

------------------
-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

there is alot of misunderstanding, and out right ignorance in protestant circles regarding submission to authority, and the real, biblical nature of what the Church is.

Alot of this was originally due to reactionism against Catholicism, but since it has become as much about individualism, humanism, and simple rebeliousness.

If most protestants were to do a real serious, objective study on what the bible teaches regarding the Church, and the Church's authority, they'd be shocked.

Just a couple of things that come to mind right off the top of my head..

In the New Testament (in one of the Timothies I believe) we are told that the Church is "the foundation and pillar of truth"
In Ephesians we are told both that the Church is the fullness of Jesus Christ, and that through the Church God will reveal his manifold wisdom even to the powers in heavenly places.

In scripture, some of the authorities given to the Church, and usually specifically to the leaders of the Church

#1 - to teach doctrine and root out error
#2 - to discipline church members up to and including casting them out of the church
#3 - to heal the sick
#4 - to forgive sins, or not forgive sins
#5 - to make rules and/or teachings regarding the application of doctrine to daily life

One of the most crucial things here is understanding that when God gives someone authority, as long as they are within that authority (IE not going contrary to God), to rebel against them is the same as rebelling against God.

------------------
-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

Church is however important, where Christ is the head and we believers in Christ are to grow together. And it's the body of Christ.

(Joh 8:24) I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Know your Lord, that's what matters. Even the muslims believe Jesus lived.

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tallbill:
But they don’t know Him as [b]I AM and therefore are not saved.
[/B]

---

My experience has been some do and some don't like any big church,ok maybe a little worse than most big dead churches. But I am confident there are members that are saved.

Some like the tradition and see that as part of their expression of faith in Him.
Some want to change it.
Some pockets of real life exist in some.

For example the Catholic church I grew up with was part of a program to go door to door with the 4 steps and commitment prayer.

The priest we had when I was young said "If someone asks you if you are born again - you should listen to them - because you should be"

The line you quoted was in reference to Muslims.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

[This message has been edited by Tallbill (edited September 08, 2007).]

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

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CCN's Resident Color Commentator!

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anyhow, I was called out my Simon. I admit, I misinterpreted what the Pope said and Simon nailed it on the head.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

and i disagree with that.

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

We do not decide who is saved and who is not. God does.

[This message has been edited by cohort X (edited September 09, 2007).]

quote:

---

Where do you draw the line?
Do you believe that simply because I believe that a catholic could be saved that that is a false teaching and I am therefore not saved?
Do you believe that all of Western Europe during the middle ages were not saved because Catholicism was the only denomination?

---

no i think i said it about twice just because you say you are a catholic that doesn't mean you are not saved and just because you say you are pentecostal/protestant that doesn't make you saved it's what you believe that decides whether you are saved.

if you follow the false teaching and false doctrine of the roman catholic chruch or any other group that teaches false teachings using the HOLY BIBLE you are not saved.

but there are(i heard) what are called charismatic catholics who do believe the truth and denounce the false teachings of the rcc but i don't know a lot about them.

and yes all of the people in the middle ages or at any time who didn't accept JESUS CHRIST as their only LORD and SAVIOR were not saved just like
muslims aren't saved mormons aren't saved followers of david korech(if i spelled that correctly-he's the guy with the shootings in waco texas) were not saved.

it doesn't matter how many followers a false teaching has/had or how long it has been followed a false teaching is a false teaching.

and again i am not saying there were not any saved people in the middle ages -there could have been and maybe we haven't heard about them.

quote:

---

We do not decide who is saved and who is not. God does.

---

are you saying it's none of our buisiness who is saved and who isn't?
i thought that kind of was our whole buisness here on earth???can you explain to me that statement?

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John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

To what degree does false teaching prevent someone from entering Heaven?
And more importantly, who has the authority to point out that line?

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:

To what degree does false teaching prevent someone from entering Heaven?

---

We can find out by asking some one if he's going to get to Heaven and how. If the answers is "maybe" then we can tell this person about the finished work of Jesus and the free salvation in Him and about the gift of Holy spirit.
This way we can help the person to see if he's reborn.

That's basically witnessing, preaching the word.

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

People who are in a rush to condemn churches with problems should look at the letters to the seven churches in revelation. Those letters were written to real churches that had real problems. In all but two cases the churches listed had very significant problems with false doctrines and false practices, but they were still considered real churches and had real believers in them.

------------------
-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

quote:

---

I don't think you get our point.
There will always be a degree of false teaching in the church. Too many denominations preach too many different things for them all to be right.
All of us are wrong to a point.
To what degree does false teaching prevent someone from entering Heaven?
And more importantly, who has the authority to point out that line?

---

you have a point archangel my belief is even in protestant Churches if you fall into believing a false doctrine it will not lead you to that narrow road to heaven.

what the rcc believes is an out right false teaching that is so false that it in my opinion should not be considered Christian because it has gone too much out of the teachings of Christ and into the interpretations of the teachings of Christ and the BIBLE as a whole according to few selected individuals who claim authority to interpret the BIBLE according to anyway they want.

so you see in the catholic church you are following a priest and communicating with a priest and the priest inturn communicates(or he thinks he does) with JESUS CHRIST.

so a catholic is not a follower of JESUS CHRIST but a follower of preists and a catholic does not believe he is saved by JESUS CHRIST only but also by his mother in the flesh mary.

read colossians 2:17-23 i think paul was warning of a similar doctrine as the one we see in orthodox/catholic Churches.

when a false teaching gets out of hand and is considered a teaching that prevents you from salvation imho is when that teaching is so deceptive and false that you become more of a follower of that teaching and you become more commited to that teaching than CHRIST himself.
and when that teaching prevents you from experiencing the grace of JESUS CHRIST and the wondeful and amazingly awsome love he has for you.
and/or if that teaching goes against the requirements that had been set inorder for you to get salvation,such as believing,declaring JESUS as your only Lord and savior ,putting your faith in JESUS,etc...
and/or if that teaching allows a sin such as worshipping someone that is not GOD(such as mary,or the angels).

and what the rcc believs meets most if not all of this requirements and it is an absolue false teaching.

you said who has authority to point out that line,my answer in my opinion is those who have found the true way should point it out.

it's up to you to read the BIBLE and see which teaching is right .it's up to you to find the true way not up to a priest or any other human but you.

i don't know a lot about denominations and their beliefs but i will read the BIBLE and if anything is preached that is agains the GOSPEL of JESUS CHRIST then i will automaticaly dismiss that teaching as a false teaching.

i think the big red line of false teachings is the GOSPEL the rcc,orhodox,mormons,etc...as far as i know teach against the GOSPEL.

quote:

---

The RCC does have its share of false doctrines in my opinion. However, I would pretty much guarentee you that most charismatic churches have just as many, if not more (and I'm a charismatic).

---

quote:

---

People who are in a rush to condemn churches with problems should look at the letters to the seven churches in revelation. Those letters were written to real churches that had real problems. In all but two cases the churches listed had very significant problems with false doctrines and false practices, but they were still considered real churches and had real believers in them.

---

i see your point about the CHURCHES in Revelation but i don't see JESUS saying anythign to any of the CHURCHES about them not teaching/teaching against the GOSPEL.

and there is still nothing that justifies a false teaching-specially a false teaching about the GOSPEL and the HOLY TRINITY.

but i think this thread is going out of the topic which is the pope.
and i why you guys think it's right to talk about an individual and how bad/good he is and call him names?

------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

To apply this to the Pope, one only need remember that the person the Romans call Jesus is an aloof, stand-offish person that you have to approach through his mother and/or the “saints” in order that they might convince him to deal with you in a kind and merciful manner. Such person is not the LORD of all the universe as related in the Bible, who spoke face to face with a cowardly murderer (Moses) as one would with a friend. The One who rebuked His Apostles for trying to keep little children away from Him does not need to be approached while hiding behind the skirts of His mother.

Every heresy begins with a misconception of the person of God, and the Roman doctrines and practices have many such misconceptions.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

quote:

---

Originally posted by simon_templar:
The RCC does have its share of false doctrines in my opinion. However, I would pretty much guarentee you that most charismatic churches have just as many, if not more (and I'm a charismatic).

---

I am exactly in the same boat with you. My biggest problem with the Roman Catholic Church is the over emphasis on follow "church leadership" and such. I honestly believe that you can be saved, just you and Jesus, therefore you don't need to be a member of a particular church organization to be saved, nor does membership in a particular organization exempt you from salvation. Salvation belongs to Jesus alone. Believing in slightly weird doctrine doesn't imply that you aren't saved either. Most churches I've been to (a healthy mix of protestant flavors) have been imbalanced in one way or another, often times to the degree that the RCC is imbalanced, just not the same way. I have enjoyed Charismatic churches the most, as the focus on a personal relationship with Jesus is usually paramount.

To be honest, right now I'm not "going to church" in the traditional sense of keeping a folding chair warm on Sunday mornings in a high school cafeteria, 70's era church building with high-traffic carpeting, or somebody's living room. However, I am part of the true church, as we all are if we follow Jesus. The last church I was a member of dissolved earlier this year due to some imbalances and lack of qualified leadership. I'm still looking for a church family that I feel comfortable meeting with on a regular basis.

Now, to address the topic of the Pope. He certainly has some imbalance (like you and me), but the way he talks about having a personal relationship with Jesus rings true to me, and I believe that he, as well as many, many other Catholics and Christians around the world, has a genuine relationship with Jesus. Those of you who would say that he is not saved are as brash and unthinking as the Pope himself when he denounced Protestant churches as false churches.

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+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

quote:

---

Originally posted by steveth45:
The last church I was a member of dissolved earlier this year due to some imbalances and lack of qualified leadership. I'm still looking for a church family that I feel comfortable meeting with on a regular basis.

---

<plug> We really enjoyed Cascade PCA when we were out there -- the pastor there seems like a really good guy, and I think Jennifer and I would have really enjoyed attending there were we to have moved to Eugene. </plug>

Wherever it is you wind up going, we hope that you can find a good one.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Steveth45:
Salvation belongs to Jesus alone. Believing in slightly weird doctrine doesn't imply that you aren't saved either.

---

Still, there's another side to it that I've been learning about recently, and I'm really not sure sure what the role of the church is (ecclesiology). I come from a fairly non-denominational background, and I've traditionally eschewed things like church membership and rules that say things like only elders should baptize, etc.

Now I'm not so sure -- it seems like scripture does give some specific responsibilities (and even authority?) to the visible (little-c) church.

I dunno' though -- I have a real internal struggle against submission to organizational leadership, and so it's quite likely that I'm fairly biased to want to rebel against the "church" offices and buildings and whatnot.

So a lot of that spills over into my frustrations and struggles with things like RCC doctrine, which puts heavy credence and trust in the testimony and teachings of previous church leaders.

--clint

You might consider inquiring with the folks at CRI, as they keep a database of good solid churches all over the country. Because of their diligence on our behalf, you can find out ahead of time whether there are problems with the teaching at a lot of churches.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

quote:

---

Salvation belongs to Jesus alone. Believing in slightly weird doctrine doesn't imply that you aren't saved either.

---

quote:

---

I dunno' though -- I have a real internal struggle against submission to organizational leadership, and so it's quite likely that I'm fairly biased to want to rebel against the "church" offices and buildings and whatnot.

---

and the Church does have certain authority being the body of CHRIST and all .

and keep in mind not to judge a Church based on it's members or it's perfection/imperfection but on the doctrine and teaching they have.

------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tallbill:
You might consider inquiring with the folks at CRI, as they keep a database of good solid churches all over the country.

---

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+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

quote:

---

i think it's the will of GOD to submit to higher authorities specially at Church .as long as they don't demand of you to disobey JESUS CHRIST or do something that's against GOD's will.

---

Why? Why not submit to the will and teachings of God & Jesus instead? Why put something in between you and God. Humans are not perfect, so you are simply adding the chance that said person will erroneouslly represent the will of God. Just because someone isn't going against the teachings of Jesus doesn't mean they are following his will.

Now I'm not saying Certain people don't have authority in certain ways, but I interpret that much different than you, less of a personal authority over you, but authority given by God to perform certain acts.

quote:

---

and keep in mind not to judge a Church based on it's members or it's perfection/imperfection but on the doctrine and teaching they have.

---

Why? I find many people mis-understand what the word Church means in the bible... this article is a good evalutation on my opinion.

I've done some personal research into the true meaning of the words used for Church in the bible and I concur with some of the same evaluations, some excerpts.

quote:

---

"Church" in the original text is "Ecclesia". The word Ecclesia is also used (136 times) in the Septuagint, and is used 114 times in the New Testament itself.

---

quote:

---

Ecclesia means convocation, gathering, congregation, meeting, etc. "Ecclesia tou demou" (meeting of the citizens) was in ancient Athens the meeting of the citizens of Athens to decide on the affairs of their city. Ecclesia in the New Testament (and the Old) is the people of the city of God, that is, not a part of them (the clergy, monks or any part whatever), but all the faithful.

---

quote:

---

From this meaning comes also the naming of local churches (ekklesiai), that is the whole communities of the faithful in various cities, and again not a part of them. See, e.g. in Apocalypse, where John writes to the Churches (Ecclesiai) of Ephesus, Smyrna, etc. Paul wrote also to various churches, and writing to the church of Rome he says what the church is: "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints" - To all the faithful, that is a church.

---

Church's were never meant to be an organization in my opinion and evaluation, they were also not meant to be a building, or a denomination. It's quite simple actually, from what I've gathered, that in fact it is meant to be a gathering and an entire community of faithful. The emphasis is on the people, not the organization, building, or association. This is why I don't agree with "and keep in mind not to judge a Church based on it's members". To me thats exactly what you need to judge a Church on since that is in fact what makes the Church.

The linked article also has an interesting evluation of Peter being defined as the rock, here are some excerpts. I personally concur much more with this evaluation than the Catholic one:

quote:

---

Papacy has made many mistakes, and this one is the base of all its mistakes. Papacy (without any grounding on the Bible) 1) linked Peter with each and every Pope, that is with the See itself, as if each Pope and Peter were the same person, and 2) interpreted Christ's words as if they meant obeyance of all to Peter.

Christ here says that His church will be built upon Peter, not because all will obey Peter, but because Peter showed a faith in Christ, revealed by the Father in Heaven. That is, the rock upon which the Church is being built is anyone who has faith in Christ revealed by the Father, that is, upon all faithful to the degree that they have real faith, real knowledge of the living Christ as the only begotten Son of God.

All men who have real and alive contact with the Christ, are the rock of the Church, helping the others as much as they can, to arrive (if they want) to the same living contact - and they help in the way of Christ himself. Christ did not burn people to death, and did not force anyone to obey Him. He didn't come as a heavenly all-mighty machine, He came as a man, to love to be loved, and He was crucified because of this.

---

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

quote:

---

Originally posted by HanClinto:
Now I'm not so sure -- it seems like scripture does give some specific responsibilities (and even authority?) to the visible (little-c) church.

---

I believe that a church only has the following areas of authority:

1. Teaching. A church has the right to keep divisive or heretical teaching away from their gatherings.

2. Membership. A church has the right to refuse membership to any individual, mainly in the case of excommunication as outlined in the scripture.

Outside of those two things, the church has no authority whatsoever over the lives of the individuals that belong to it. The church has no right to tell you who to marry (though same-sex marriage would probably lead to excommunication), where to work, how to vote, how to dress, what music to listen to, or what other particular cultural conventions to hold to.

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+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

[This message has been edited by steveth45 (edited September 13, 2007).]

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tallbill:
Although the conventions you hold to will vary according to the character of your walk with Christ, and the elders will inevidably use those things in order to assess the veracity of your testimony.

---

The conventions you hold to are as likely based on your own culture, upbringing, and personal tastes. I see churches where all the members tend to dress the same, listen to the same music, and vote the same, yet I doubt they all have a similar "walk with Christ." Some churches tend to emphasize these things and I think it is easier to "fit in" to a church culture than have a vibrant walk with Christ. When I see a church with a more diverse culture, I can't help but assume that the culture of the church is more focused on being real Christians, and less about fitting into a Christian culture. When people judge me on these and other external things, I know that their judgments are false and that God does not judge on these exterior things, but looks at my heart, which belongs to him.

When you have a church that expects you to look, talk and act a certain way, then I see no room for me to be myself. We are all made individual, and simultaneously in the image of Christ himself. All of our unique tastes and personalities, likes and dislikes are a reflection of the divinity and complexity of Christ. When somebody comes to Christ, he or she puts aside the sinful self, but the distinct personality of the individual is still present. Each member of the body of Christ is like a different organ in the body that performs a different task. The eye of the body can't say it doesn't need the ear (or that the ear should act like an eye), etc. Therefore, the body of Christ is a diverse collection of parts, all useful, all unique, all beautiful.

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+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

quote:

---

Why? Why not submit to the will and teachings of God & Jesus instead? Why put something in between you and God. Humans are not perfect, so you are simply adding the chance that said person will erroneouslly represent the will of God. Just because someone isn't going against the teachings of Jesus doesn't mean they are following his will.

---

if they teach falsely or something like that it's up to you to figure that out by going through the BIBLE what you are saying is what the first apostles/disciples did was wrong when the made Churches.

and not only that who is going to send evangelists or evangelize the world who has the authority to organize that??

the Church is the body of CHRIST and JESUS has given authority to certain people over others.

like pastors,evangelists,apostles,administrators,CHURCH elders,etc...

quote:

---

Now I'm not saying Certain people don't have authority in certain ways, but I interpret that much different than you, less of a personal authority over you, but authority given by God to perform certain acts.

---

quote:

---

Why? I find many people mis-understand what the word Church means in the bible... this article is a good evalutation on my opinion.

I've done some personal research into the true meaning of the words used for Church in the bible and I concur with some of the same evaluations, some excerpts.

---

quote:

---

Church's were never meant to be an organization in my opinion and evaluation, they were also not meant to be a building, or a denomination. It's quite simple actually, from what I've gathered, that in fact it is meant to be a gathering and an entire community of faithful. The emphasis is on the people, not the organization, building, or association. This is why I don't agree with "and keep in mind not to judge a Church based on it's members". To me thats exactly what you need to judge a Church on since that is in fact what makes the Church.

---

i never said judge a Church based on the appearance of it's building ,either you misunderstood me or you are twisting my words.

what i meant was the members are not neccesarily perfect.have you heard anyone say "CHRISTIANS are not perfect but forgiven" we are not perfect nor righteous by works but our righteousness comes through faith in CHRIST .

Christians may offend you they may do many things to you,but that doesn't represent what is thought in that CHURCH or what the CHURCH believes it just means the members of the CHURCH being humans just like you and me messed up and don't judge them.

quote:

---

Outside of those two things, the church has no authority whatsoever over the lives of the individuals that belong to it. The church has no right to tell you who to marry (though same-sex marriage would probably lead to excommunication), where to work, how to vote, how to dress, what music to listen to, or what other particular cultural conventions to hold to.

---

but it's up to you to figure out the will of GOD and follow JESUS CHRIST they will just tell you the right way.

think of it this way -some people have more experience and more knowledge than you in the walk of faith they will point you to the right direction if you listen to them you won't mess up if you don't you mess up.

------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

quote:

---

humans are not perfect but GOD is and GOD puts people who he either trusts or thinks will do a good job to watch over you to guide you to pastor to you and to minister unto you.

---

The question is then how do you determine that someone is set as a leader by God. Just because they, or others, say so doesn't mean it's God's will for them to be. That is why we have so many cults, people believe the word of man too easily.

quote:

---

and not only that who is going to send evangelists or evangelize the world who has the authority to organize that??

---

Churches... meaning the "congregration" of people. Since that is the translated meaning of the world.

quote:

---

the Church is the body of CHRIST and JESUS has given authority to certain people over others.

---

Yes, but the Church is the congregration... not an association. Congregration has the emphasis on the people, association has the emphasis on the entity in which people congregrate to, very different.

quote:

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like pastors,evangelists,apostles,administrators,CHURCH elders,etc...

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I do understand what you are saying. I am very familiar with Church structure. In fact I grew up as my father being an ordained minister and a pastor of our own church. Most of childhood was involved with him being heavily (and me) in a church organization either as pastor, study group leader/teacher, music director, etc.

I know this organization very well and have experienced guidance from some of the most influential people in my life; however, these people didn't need an organization to appoint them as a wise figure to me. They proved and showed this. I followed their guidance because they earned my respect, because I saw with my own eyes the Lord in their actions... not because this organization appointed this person.

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GOD has put certain people over you so that they may feed you with his word and minister to you moreover they have authority to keep you away from false teachings ,etc...

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I agree partially with what you are saying, though I don't see it as over us. Some people are leaders for others, we all need a leader at times, and many of us are called to be leaders in different situations (some more than others). People can reveal the wisdom and teachings of the Lord to others, and they have the responsibility to ensure they give a proper message. Though they do not have 'authority' over me in any real way. They have no right to tell me what to do, or what not to do. They don't act as an interpreter between God and I to tell me what his will for me is. Jesus desires personal relationships with us, not so someone else can act in his stead. People are meant to encourage, teach, share wisdom, and various other things with eachother... but they don't have direct authority over us. That's where I disagree greatly.

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i didn't read that article but i believe that the CHURCH is the body of JESUS CHRIST that is what i base my posts on .

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Maybe you should read that article then, you might find it interesting. In either case what you are saying is the wrong side of the equation I'm talking about

Church = body of Jesus

I'm not saying "body of Jesus" shouldn't be on that end... what I'm saying is the translation of the word used for "church" in the bible in fact means "assembly" or "congregration". So..

congregration (church) = body of Jesus

To me (in which I base off of the translation of the word church) the emphasis is indeed on the people and not the affiliation they organize under.

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i never said judge a Church based on the appearance of it's building ,either you misunderstood me or you are twisting my words.

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Twisting your words?

you said:

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and keep in mind not to judge a Church based on it's members

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I said:

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The emphasis is on the people, not the organization, building, or association.

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What I am saying is that the members/people are in fact the church...

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what i meant was the members are not neccesarily perfect.have you heard anyone say "CHRISTIANS are not perfect but forgiven" we are not perfect nor righteous by works but our righteousness comes through faith in CHRIST .

Christians may offend you they may do many things to you,but that doesn't represent what is thought in that CHURCH or what the CHURCH believes it just means the members of the CHURCH being humans just like you and me messed up and don't judge them.

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I agree with that statement though. I think we do agree on that at least. Though the definition of a church is the people that make up the congregration, including leaders and followers... not just the leaders or the doctrine in which the leaders follow.

I have gone to the same denominations and have had completely different experiences. The doctrine is actually a lot less significant to me in comparisson to the people who make up the congregration, the church.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

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Originally posted by steveth45:
The conventions you hold to are as likely based on your own culture, upbringing, and personal tastes. I see churches where all the members tend to dress the same, listen to the same music, and vote the same, yet I doubt they all have a similar "walk with Christ."

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When people judge me on these and other external things, I know that their judgments are false and that God does not judge on these exterior things, but looks at my heart, which belongs to him.

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We might not be cookie-cutters, but, as Christians, we do all have the exact same Spirit of God working within us, so in things that touch upon the essentials, we better all be the same, or we do not all have the same Spirit of God working within us. In discerning such things about others, no one is wrong.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

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CCN's Resident Color Commentator!