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Simpsons make fun of Left Behind? – David Lancaster

David Lancaster

Member

Posts: 276
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 05-22-2006
I saw an episode of the Simpsons today, where they see a movie called 'left below' and it's like a corny stab at left behind...still watching it but what do you guys think of something like this?
TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
Considering that Left Behind isn't accurate, somebody needs to.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

Jari

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Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
I don't know left behind well, but it's Christian?
Simpsons is full of blashemy. Can't be without hearing it when my unsaved little brother watches it on the other room.

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

Lazarus

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Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by jari:
I don't know left behind well, but it's Christian?

It claims to be Christian... I would think a parody of it would be funny since it's kinda ridiculous.

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
I actually got a lot of entertainment from it, yes its Christian, but its Christian Entertainment of what could happen during the endtimes, and not very accurate in Theology if you're reading it for information. I've never watched Simpsons.

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

kenman

Member

Posts: 518
From: Janesville WI
Registered: 08-31-2006
Well, I found it to be funny also, but I find it interesting that the Simpsons have made fun of that move, missionaries, TV preachers, The Flood, and revelation about 10 other times. It was once said to me one of the best compliments is a parody. But do you dare parody Revelation?

quote:
REV 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

As far as accuracy of interpretation of the book of Revelation. I know there are several ways to interpret and each one has thier reasons, but the left behind series is a good series of books to read. IMHO

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
quote:
Originally posted by jari:
I don't know left behind well, but it's Christian?
Simpsons is full of blashemy. Can't be without hearing it when my unsaved little brother watches it on the other room.

When the LORD drove the Jews out of the land, did He use a more Godly race, or did He use a pagan nation? He used a pagan nation. It was part of the judgment against the Jews that they should watch as the God that they were supposed to be and claimed to be worshipping (but were not) were driven out of the promised land by a nation that made no such pretense. Who knows but that the same sort of point is not being made even today against those who claim to be Christian, but who in fact have no knowledge of God whatsoever (such a thing is actually quite rampant in today's society)?

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Hrm? I'm not going to air dirty laundry but the people in Left Behind Games certainly were "real" Christians...at least the ones I know.
TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
I don't know about any Left Behind Games, but the people behind the books make certain claims that imply that Jesus' Sacrifice upon the Cross was not sufficient for certain groups of people. In my book, that means heresy, and heretical teachings imply, rather strongly, that those putting forth such ideas are not, in fact, Christian at all.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
I have never heard that. scary, if it's true.

besides, that episode has been out for a while.
"*gasp* my christian limo driver!"
I used to like the Left Behind movies, and I could laugh at that episode.
"the baby I chose to be baptized is gone!"
"oh, why did I chose to be gay?"
ahh, all classic lines.

I do watch the Simpsons alot and I found the parodies to be, actually, pretty respectful. Also, the Simpsons tend to mock Christians rather than God.
but in the end, people like Ned Flanders aren't shown out to be hypocritical antagonists, like in normal Hollywood, but characters with their strong points and quirks. Flanders is a character who takes things to the extreme, juxtaposed to a burnt-out Reverend Lovejoy, but all in all, he's a kind hearted guy with Spartan-ripped Abs.

honestly, we can learn alot from a respectful satire/parody.

Now Family Guy, they're just mean.
I say this also considering they aren't that funny.
and their writing team is a bunch of Manatees.
(brownie points to anybody who knows where that's from)

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
You know, the Simpsons could put ME in there and really go to town. Would I laugh at it? Probably, though it might take a bit to get over myself.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

[This message has been edited by Tallbill (edited June 19, 2007).]

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by Tallbill:
the people behind the books make certain claims that imply that Jesus' Sacrifice upon the Cross was not sufficient for certain groups of people.


That's a strong statement -- if anyone wants to continue on this, I would appreciate a referenced source.

While I certainly understand people objecting to Groening's satire, I personally hold a view closer to you, Arch. Many of the Simpsons' jokes are funny because they've got a lot of truth to them. Reverend Lovejoy wouldn't be nearly as funny if people didn't personally know any hypocritical Christians.

Still, they can (and have) gone over the top on some issues, and I can understand Jari's plight.

As Christians, we'd do well to be open to criticism. Obviously, we need to listen to the rebuke of the Bible first, but if someone (Christian or not) tells me that I'm in error on something, I would do well to evaluate it, and accept it if I find it to be true. Sometimes God "pulls a Balaam" and speaks to us through earthly means.

quote:
Proverbs 17:10
A rebuke goes deeper into one who has understanding than a hundred blows into a fool.


quote:
Proverbs 27:5
Better is open rebuke than love that is concealed.


quote:
Proverbs 10:17
He is on the path of life who heeds instruction, but he who ignores reproof goes astray.


So in that sense, I appreciate honest criticism, and I've certainly had some from the Simpsons.

I think things like Billy Graham's Bible Blasters can be a very good reminder to us Christian game designers to try and do well with our game design -- to ignore criticism such as theirs would be foolish.

--clint

P.S. Arch, I believe you're referencing the manatee research by Eric Theodore.

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Tallbill:
When the LORD drove the Jews out of the land, did He use a more Godly race, or did He use a pagan nation? He used a pagan nation. It was part of the judgment against the Jews that they should watch as the God that they were supposed to be and claimed to be worshipping (but were not) were driven out of the promised land by a nation that made no such pretense. Who knows but that the same sort of point is not being made even today against those who claim to be Christian, but who in fact have no knowledge of God whatsoever (such a thing is actually quite rampant in today's society)?


This is what I often think and I believe God uses similar way to speak to us, to "put us back on track"

But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy. Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand.
(2Ch 36:16-17)

This was ofcourse extreme example where we can see from those verses how the people had entirely rejected God.
But I don't know how this would relate to Left behind. People can mock and make fun of Jesus, they just need some picture other than Jesus healing and ministering to people. From us people can find many faults they can make fun of, like in simpsons flanders seems uneducated as he doesnt even know how air planes fly.


------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited June 19, 2007).]

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Tallbill:
It was part of the judgment against the Jews that they should watch as the God that they were supposed to be and claimed to be worshipping (but were not) were driven out of the promised land by a nation that made no such pretense. Who knows but that the same sort of point is not being made even today against those who claim to be Christian

quote:
Originally posted by jari:

This was ofcourse extreme example where we can see from those verses how the people had entirely rejected God.
But I don't know how this would relate to Left behind. People can mock and make fun of Jesus, they just need some picture other than Jesus healing and ministering to people. From us people can find many faults they can make fun of, like in simpsons flanders seems uneducated as he doesnt even know how air planes fly.


He is basically saying that anyone that probably even remotely believes in what is mentioned in the LB books is not a Christian. I’ve heard it said by many people, many times. Basically, “anathema“… is what is being said I pretty much feel sorry for Bill.


And sadly, I doubt that there is anything I can say directly to Bill, myself, about this that will simply set him straight, since after admitting I believe dispensationalism (which is what the LB books draw from though not accurately; it’s for entertainment sake), which is why I dropped the last conversation that he started about it. If I’m not really a Christian in his mind because I hold secondary issues that are in conflict with his secondary issues, than why would he take me seriously?

I have a hard time taking him seriously at this point though, because it is evident, that to him, primary issues are not the measure of being a Christian (e.g. grace not works, triune God, remission of sins etc) which is what separates the sheep from the goats. If it is all about secondary issues, than we are all in trouble because we all hold different views beyond the foundational beliefs of Christianity. So sorry, Jeri, you may be going to hell for only reading the KJV and not something else like the original scripts it was translated from in that language, or washing your laundry on Sunday rather than Monday etc…

Maybe Bill can post on the requirements for being a real Christian?

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited June 19, 2007).]

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
quote:

I do watch the Simpsons alot and I found the parodies to be, actually, pretty respectful. Also, the Simpsons tend to mock Christians rather than God.



hey man, simpsons is a bad movie (and sitcoms in general), mocking is bad by itself. and incase you don't know when you moke a Christian you mock Christ and when you mock Christ you mock he that sent Christ meaning GOD.

simpsons is full of profanity ,vulgarness and etc... man it shouldn't be allowed on tv. it is one of those movies that should be xrated but are not.

sitcoms are something no Christian should watch, i would avoid tv in general if i were you.

secular stuff really holds you back, people don't like being told stuff like that so pray about it and GOD will reveal it to you.

------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
Anyway, as for the Simpson’s, I missed that episode, but I hardly watch the show any longer. Actually there are a lot of really good/funny episodes, I don’t mind the show in general, but yes it gets really stupid at times.

Someone mention South Park? Lol maybe not, I only started watching that recently, it’s pretty bad… really bad. It's simply a show for perverts and for the making of perverts.

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
dp - meant to hit edit, not quote...

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited June 19, 2007).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Tallbill:
I don't know about any Left Behind Games, but the people behind the books make certain claims that imply that Jesus' Sacrifice upon the Cross was not sufficient for certain groups of people. In my book, that means heresy, and heretical teachings imply, rather strongly, that those putting forth such ideas are not, in fact, Christian at all.


When it comes to areas of the Bible that are open to many different interpretations, claiming one interpretation has that kind of superiority over another doesn't sound very logical to me.

Just because people have wrong beliefs doesn't mean they aren't Christian, Bill. None of us can get it 100% right...

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
When it comes to areas of the Bible that are open to many different interpretations, claiming one interpretation has that kind of superiority over another doesn't sound very logical to me.

Just because people have wrong beliefs doesn't mean they aren't Christian, Bill. None of us can get it 100% right...


*Cough* It does not say that, Han was totally in the right calling for references. If it were so than there would be serious issues with at least what they are saying, themselves, and it is something that has nothing to do with Dispensationalism; it teaches nothing of the sort or changes primary issues what so ever (actually even takes a stronger stance on primary issues by far).

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
quote:
Originally posted by spade89:
hey man, simpsons is a bad movie (and sitcoms in general), mocking is bad by itself. and incase you don't know when you moke a Christian you mock Christ and when you mock Christ you mock he that sent Christ meaning GOD.

simpsons is full of profanity ,vulgarness and etc... man it shouldn't be allowed on tv. it is one of those movies that should be xrated but are not.

sitcoms are something no Christian should watch, i would avoid tv in general if i were you.

secular stuff really holds you back, people don't like being told stuff like that so pray about it and GOD will reveal it to you.


my sarcasm senses are tingling.

or, they better be.

------------------
"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited June 19, 2007).]

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
my sarcasm senses are tingling.

or, they better be.


Mmm probably, after all, Christ is GOD.

Are you not a Trinitarian, Spade? Or are you just pulling our legs?

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited June 19, 2007).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
*Cough* It does not say that, Han was totally in the right calling for references. If it were so than there would be serious issues with at least what they are saying, themselves, and it is something that has nothing to do with Dispensationalism; it teaches nothing of the sort or changes primary issues what so ever (actually even takes a stronger stance on primary issues by far).

...this is exactly what I meant...

No, really.

*sarcasm detector beeps really loudly at both Arch and FW's posts...*

Briant

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Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
Maybe this thread is getting derailed, but it's not anti-Trinitarian to say Christ was sent by God. Jesus himself used similar phrases (John 17:3 for example).

------------------
Brian

"OOP programmers have a lot of class"

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Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
...this is exactly what I meant...

No, really.

*sarcasm detector beeps really loudly at both Arch and FW's posts...*


huh? I wasn't being sarcastic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasim

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by BrianT:
Maybe this thread is getting derailed, but it's not anti-Trinitarian to say Christ was sent by God. Jesus himself used similar phrases (John 17:3 for example).


No, but he skipped it as if He wasn’t. I didn’t claim he didn’t, that is why I asked. Understand? Nothing wrong with asking, right? Lots of people don't ask me and simply tell me what I believe (their often wrong), but I often rather simply ask rather than claim I know what they are saying, or not saying.

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lazarus:
[b] ...this is exactly what I meant...

No, really.

*sarcasm detector beeps really loudly at both Arch and FW's posts...*


huh? I wasn't being sarcastic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasim

[/B][/QUOTE]

Well, I meant the "pulling our legs" comment - but I guess I was wrong.

Sorry. <sarcasm>

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
First off, the Simpsons:

THEY ARE NOT MOCKING GOD, just those (that is, US) who claim to follow God. I sincerely believe that there is a difference. I find it amazingly easy to laugh at me. Just watch me at work and count the number of times I lay my glasses down and INSTANTLY forget where I put them, only to find them pretty much right under my hand, having passed them by about 13 times while looking for them. I can be quite amusing to watch, trust me.

Now about those things that I consider heresy:

I do not believe that they are related to legitimate dispensationalism (though I do have quite a few problems with that). Rather, they are related to things attributed to the “theologian” behind the Left Behind books, such as the claim that there will be a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem, that there will be animal sacrifices in that temple, and that (and this is the key point; the rest might or might not happen, it really doesn’t matter, but this point is where I believe heresy enters the room) those sacrifices will be efficacious. Claiming that such things would be efficacious for some people, or for any people, is tantamount to claiming that for those people Jesus’ sacrifice was not. Hopefully the people viewing this have not forgotten John 14:6: “I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through me.” No other way is efficacious for anything or for anyone. John 14:6 makes that abundantly clear.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

kenman

Member

Posts: 518
From: Janesville WI
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
Originally posted by TallBill:
First off, the Simpsons:

[b]THEY ARE NOT MOCKING GOD,

[/B]


Hm, I can think of several episodes of Simpsons where God is mocked.

Your opinion of Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins is not based in anything that I have ever found to be truth. With due respect to your opinion, and other than you last post, I don't believe that I ever saw anything like that in any of the books that I read. Maybe you could quote or something to shed some light on it. The only thing I could find in about 200 articles about it on Google is that people have bad opinions of the series, but nothing biblically based. And, after all it is fiction and I can name people who have come to the realization of Jesus Christ directly related to the book series.

I know nothing of the game series in all fairness.

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
If you're referring to the Dispensationalist doctrine, kenman - there are a number of people who disagree with it.

Myself included. *cough*

kenman

Member

Posts: 518
From: Janesville WI
Registered: 08-31-2006
Well, unfortunately, none of us are going to be here to prove or disprove that. . .

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by TallBill:
[B]such as the claim that there will be a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem,

umm yeah, that seems to be the place where the Jews are now. [sarcasm]maybe they ar preparing to build it in Utah?[/sarcasm](yes there I did, but only for an example)

quote:

that there will be animal sacrifices in that temple,


Welp, that's usually where it happens. They even have most of the things required to do this all ready to use now.


quote:
and that (and this is the key point; the rest might or might not happen, it really doesn’t matter, but this point is where I believe heresy enters the room) those sacrifices will be efficacious. Claiming that such things would be efficacious for some people, or for any people, is tantamount to claiming that for those people Jesus’ sacrifice was not.
See, this is where I have a problem. You have quotes as asked for by Han, or not? No view of dispensationalism teaches such a thing, there are three forms of it and none of them do. I mean if God is going to "run us out", we should at least have some quotes that say that this is what is taught in the first place. LB is a work of fiction purely from dispensational theology, actually Acts3 Dispensationalism to be exact.

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
Allow me to quote myself, since you seem to have missed the quoted portion and taken offense as a result.

quote:
Originally posted by TallBill:
Now about those things that I consider heresy:

I do not believe that they are related to legitimate dispensationalism (though I do have quite a few problems with that). Rather, they are related to things attributed to the “theologian” behind the Left Behind books,


------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by TallBill:
Allow me to quote myself, since you seem to have missed the quoted portion and taken offense as a result.


quote:
Originally posted by Tallbill:
I don't know about any Left Behind Games, but the people behind the books make certain claims that imply that Jesus' Sacrifice upon the Cross was not sufficient for certain groups of people. In my book, that means heresy, and heretical teachings imply, rather strongly, that those putting forth such ideas are not, in fact, Christian at all.


ok lets play nave. Got those quotes?

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
quote:
such as the claim that there will be a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem, that there will be animal sacrifices in that temple, and that (and this is the key point; the rest might or might not happen, it really doesn’t matter, but this point is where I believe heresy enters the room) those sacrifices will be efficacious.

It's been a while since I read the books but I believe it was non-Christian jews with the help of the anti-christ that rebuilt the temple. I don't remember that being considered efficacious, or an effective substitute for Jesus' sacrifice, at all...in fact eventually these jews realize they had been duped.

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
quote:
Originally posted by gump:
It's been a while since I read the books but I believe it was non-Christian jews with the help of the anti-christ that rebuilt the temple. I don't remember that being considered efficacious, or an effective substitute for Jesus' sacrifice, at all...in fact eventually these Jews realize they had been duped.

It's probably not in the Left Behind books. I am referring to attributions made to one of the people behind the books, not to the books themselves. I am currently conducting research to find out the actual sources of those attributions, and when I have my results, I will make them known.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

kenman

Member

Posts: 518
From: Janesville WI
Registered: 08-31-2006
So, what I am understaning is that you haven't even read the books, you are just speaking against the writers and their theology? or am I incorrect?

Please find me quotes from the book or from an established source to prove me wrong.

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
It's interesting to ponder why people generally mock Christians and why God. In the book of acts people thought due to their ignorance that the apostles we're drunk because when they we're actually filled by the Holy spirit. The people with understanding however states that it could not be the case since it was so early of the day. And the apostles had no fault in them at that point that would give people something they could "pick on".

In simpsons the jokes seem to be because of their ignorance regarding Bible and Christian life and God. Or maybe they just want to blasheme? Remember what some people said about Jesus (Luk 11:15), even they had seen this good act they did not understand/accept the fact that it was good work done in the spirit of God.

------------------
Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

HanClinto

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From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Ease up here, guys -- the tone of the thread is getting antagonistic.

Ken, whether or not Bill has read the books isn't of issue here -- he's said multiple times that he didn't hear it from the books, it's probably not in the books, and that he only heard it from external references (probably something like an interview).


I was initially somewhat concerned that Bill was going off of hearsay for his slam against the LB writers, but I think I see a bit more of where Bill is coming from now.

From what I understand, TallBill's concerns with dispensational theology and the nature of the claimed future temple sacrifices is not a question unique to him, and I think it's a fair question.

Many forms of dispensationalism teach that temple sacrifices will be restored post-Christ, and claim that prophecies from Ezekiel and Daniel point to this. The issue comes when discussing the *nature* of these sacrifices. Are they offerings of remembrance (as claimed in this primer)? Thanksgiving? Both of these would (in theory) be acceptable to God post-Christ.

However, the words and language used in these references in Ezekiel and Daniel speak about the regular, daily sacrifices, and so much of their interpretation points to them being efficacious sacrifices as atonement for sin. The dispensationalist idea may be nice, but it has a hard time fitting the scriptures.

It can be a tough point for these brands of dispensationalism to get around -- you can read more research about this particular issue by someone apparently much more studied than myself here, a more "respectable" resource here, .

It may be that Bill is saying either TLH or JBK subscribes to one of these forms of dispensationalism, and I can understand his concerns, that to instantiate daily necessary temple sacrifice post-Christ seems to be a slap in the face to Christ's atoning work, as if to try and render it null and void.


I hope I didn't misrepresent anything here. I just saw a lot of people raining down pretty hard on Bill, and wanted to chime in to say "you know, Bill might not be all that crazy (at least not on this point )"


In Christ,
clint

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by TallBill:
I am currently conducting research to find out the actual sources of those attributions, and when I have my results, I will make them known.


[SNL Church Lady] Saaaaatan? [/SNL Church Lady]

quote:
Originally posted by HanClinto:
a more "respectable" resource


Pfffffffffff

The sacrifices that were practiced in ancient Israel were all designed to be a look forward to what Christ will do upon the cross. Come on people, do you really think that animal sacrifices are all that is needed for salvation or something?? If that were so, why did the Jews go into another place other than directly to Heaven until the PERFECT sacrifice, which was Jesus Christ, which happened and then they were freed from Abrahams bosom? If animal sacrifices were all that is needed, why did God bother to incarnate and suffer crucifixion at all??

The Sacrifices of the future are memorial sacrifices, they look back to the things done. Those don’t save either. ONLY the perfect sacrifice of the lamb saves! Jesus IS that perfect sacrificial lamb.

You people may as well return to the Roman Catholicism if this is so, because the sacrifices do not save (other than the one sacrifice of Jesus) just as the wine does not literally turn into Christ’s blood during communion.

I find it absolutely amazing how Christians will rail on one another and say such things as this, but as soon as Christmas or Easter roll around its all about Santa and the Easter Bunny while they scream “blasphemers!” at us. But oh gee, God wants us/them to celebrate what He has done, during his future monarchy on earth (not theocracy as your lousy links say but Monarchy where Jesus will rule the world as king), after his second coming (NOT third coming as your lousy link claims we believe), so obviously by believing this we are “cast away” (term for anathema) from God.

hmmmm.........
(I agree with you though, Lava)


[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited June 22, 2007).]

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
I’m tired of this, I think it’s time for me to take a very long break from this site, I should just hang with my own.

To be honest, this SITE needs a very long break from the religious discussions. Seriously, we go through a routine: someone brings up a new subject-- people gently debate about it-- then as people more and more try to reinforce their discussion points it seems like self-righteousness starts to sink in. That's how it looks to me anyways.

I think non-Christian sites' debates are better than CCN's ones because no one thinks they have the one true answer from God.

So I think to avoid self righteous-ness, people should realize once they've fully stated their point that's all they can do. Either that or we should stay away from these kind of discussions, period.

[This message has been edited by Lava (edited June 20, 2007).]

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
[EDIT]
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
I find it absolutely amazing how Christians will rail on one another and say such things as this


I just wanted to go back and preface the rest of this post. While I spend most of my time in reformed (covenant theology) circles, some of my very best theological friends are dispensational or hyper-dispensational. I have learned along-side these men, and we've grown a lot together spiritually. Even though I think they're in error on some things, I don't think they've rejected the core gospel, and so in that, we are united as brothers. I don't want to slam "dispys" -- it really bugs me when other Christians do. While I think TallBill brought up a valid point about issues with dual-atonement, I would say that he was lacking in ecumenical grace when he did it. I'm sorry for how I've contributed to that -- I'm trying to remedy that. Please don't take any of my following comments as anything other than friendly sparring and debate. Iron sharpens iron, and that's what I'm trying to do. But when iron clashes harshly, it benefits neither blade. I benefit from discussions such as this -- if you (the reader) are finding your temper getting in the way of such ecumenical community study, then you might want to rethink entering into this debate. This is spoken as a reminder to myself as well -- I've failed in this regard more times than I care to remember.

[/EDIT] Now on to the rest of the post...

quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
The Sacrifices of the future are memorial sacrifices


All I was saying, is that many claim that this doesn't fit with the text. Quoting my first link:
quote:
Ezekiel 45: 15, 17, 20: the purpose of the sacrifices described here (which dispensationalism ascribes to the Millennium) is the piel form of kaphar which in the RSV means "to make atonement". This is of course the exact same word used in Leviticus and Numbers to describe propitiatory sacrifices. So either these sacrifices are propitiatory, in other words additional to, and thus an insult to, Christ's sacrifice, or else this mention of sacrifices is symbolic, which throws the dispensational hermeneutic out the window.

I got the impression from Bill that he heard either TLH or JBK make a claim to the former -- that the Ezekiel prophecies are to be interpreted literally, and they are indeed the same kinds of propitiatory sacrifices listed in Leviticus and Numbers, and they are to literally be interpreted as atonement sacrifices.

quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
ONLY the perfect sacrifice of the lamb saves! Jesus IS that perfect sacrificial lamb.


We totally agree on this. Sadly, I'm not the only one who has heard of two ways of salvation from dispensationlists. The disp. strict literal hermeneutic can easily lend itself to claiming that "because the O.T. says that these sacrifices were to atone for their sin, then they were to atone for their sin -- no 'ifs' 'ands' or 'buts'."

Some have read Scofield to speak about this subject, though there is some good material in defense of him as well. Until reading that, I was pretty convinced that classic (not progressive) disp. theology taught that there was some measure of atonement for the Jews under the sacrificial system. Now I'm not so sure. I still wonder how much classic dispensationalism would claim that O.T. Jews weren't to look forward to Christ (see point 21) under the sacrificial system, but rather totally trusted in the sacrifices as atonement for their sins. I got much of that understanding from disp. theological friends of mine. Perhaps there was a breakdown of communication, or he didn't understand that which he subscribed to. Maybe I'll ping them again about this issue.

It seems that all of this is a fairly common (mis)understanding of dispensational theology. Again,

quote:
Originally posted by HanClinto:
I hope I didn't misrepresent anything here.


It would appear that I did. My apologies.

Take care.

--clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited June 20, 2007).]

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by Lava:
To be honest, this SITE needs a very long break from the religious discussions. Seriously, we go through a routine: someone brings up a new subject-- people gently debate about it-- then as people more and more try to reinforce their discussion points it seems like self-righteousness starts to sink in. That's how it looks to me anyways.

I think non-Christian sites' debates are better than CCN's ones because no one thinks they have the one true answer from God.

So I think to avoid self righteous-ness, people should realize once they've fully stated their point that's all they can do. Either that or we should stay away from these kind of discussions, period.

[This message has been edited by Lava (edited June 20, 2007).]



It's normally better not to get involved. When you have all different typed of denominations represented with different ideas and way of doing things, it's gonna cause problems. Unfortunately churches spend all their time moaning about the differences and just let millions of people go to hell. I would rather put that rubbish aside, and just do what we're told to do (preach the Gospel, heal the sick and generally have the manifest power of God move through us in a mighty way). I don;t care how long the earth has been here. I don't care if the LB guys have weird ideas about things (thats between them and God), i don't care if your post-trib or pre-trib believer. I care about seeing lives changed, i care about seeing people saved and set free.

I love the story of when the Pharisee's were trying to draw Jesus into a debate and he just simply drew in the sand, great stuff.

------------------
"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

Calin

Member

Posts: 358
From: Moldova
Registered: 12-04-2006

I haven't got the chance to read the LB books however I think theme in LB the game is getting close to Christian 'fascism' and 'kill the unfaithful' motive. It doesn't matter that the action takes place after the Christians are raptured. Don't expect Non-Christians to understand things Christian scholars can't agree on or can't figure out. What stands out is that you as Christian are in charge with killing non-Christians because of their faith ( the lack of it better said).

------------------
Check my C# libraries

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
quote:

Are you not a Trinitarian, Spade? Or are you just pulling our legs?


yes i am a trinitarian and let me quote this scripture:

quote:

# Luke 10:16
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.


it's from kjv of the bible.

anyways i am not looking for an argument just so you know i can't imagine anyone watching simpsons and thinking movies like that are nice to watch and escape from the way of the carnal man which leads to death .

please don't bother to argue with me ,i am just telling you the truth.

and mockery ruddness and guile language,profanity etc... are clearly wrong pray that you be able to distinguish between the darkness and the light .

mockery regardless of who the person is except maybe and just maybe the devil is wrong.

and mockery is more or less closely related with hypocrisy so be careful.

i am just telling you not disputing with you,if you choose to follow the light it's your choice if you fell ok with the darkness too it's your choice just don't forget about hell.

------------------
John 14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by spade89:
[QUOTE]
Are you not a Trinitarian, Spade? Or are you just pulling our legs?


yes i am a trinitarian and let me quote this scripture:

quote:

# Luke 10:16
He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.


it's from kjv of the bible.

anyways i am not looking for an argument just so you know i can't imagine anyone watching simpsons and thinking movies like that are nice to watch and escape from the way of the carnal man which leads to death .

please don't bother to argue with me ,i am just telling you the truth.

and mockery ruddness and guile language,profanity etc... are clearly wrong pray that you be able to distinguish between the darkness and the light .

mockery regardless of who the person is except maybe and just maybe the devil is wrong.

and mockery is more or less closely related with hypocrisy so be careful.

i am just telling you not disputing with you,if you choose to follow the light it's your choice if you fell ok with the darkness too it's your choice just don't forget about hell.


[/QUOTE]

Actually, you're telling us your opinion and disputing any opinion of mine that might differ with yours.

Let's try to be accurate here, Spade.

kenman

Member

Posts: 518
From: Janesville WI
Registered: 08-31-2006
@everyone

My intention was not to offend but to offer a different opinion. I would not say that had I not felt that it would be a positive contribution to the discussion. If anything I said offended anyone please accept my apologies my Cristian Brothers and Sisters. I have my opinion and you have yours. I believe it is good to openly discuss them here because it helps us deepen our own faith by sharing, even if we are in extreme disagreement.

@Han, Although I do not agree with you on this topic, please understand I have the utmost respect for you as a Christian and as a Coder.

@TallBill, my comment about not reading the books was not intended the way it sounded, I am not going to edit my post so that the reader can here the whole point at the end. You are a very wise Christian man and I have a great deal of respect for your wisdom, I just found it unusual that you were making any comment on something at the time that I thought you may not have had all of the information. Please take no offense at my comment.


TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
My research is continuing.

At this point, I ask the readers of this thread to go back and read more carefully what I have posted in this thread. Beyond acknowledging in a very general sense that I do have problems with dispensationalism, I have said nothing at all against dispensationalism in this thread. I have, in fact, taken pains to distance myself from doing so, even pointing out that the heretical attributions that I have mentioned are not in my mind connected with legitimate dispensationalism.

For those who are curious about my eschatological views, I refer to myself as a POWist. Now, what does that mean? Pray, Occupy, Watch. Anything more is dangerous, and might lead down the road to heresy. The one thing that comes to my mind whenever I start to think that I have the end times pinned down is John the Baptist, and what he said of himself and what Jesus said of him, and what the Scripture “scholars” of the day thought that the Scriptures required. Of all of them (excepting Jesus, of course; He is God, after all), how many of these “scholars” got the role of John the Baptist right? ZERO!!! Even John the Baptist himself missed it—and he was a prophet of God! When asked if he was Elijah, John answered, “No.” but Jesus said he was Elijah, and that they did to him whatever they pleased. If even a genuine prophet of God can't get such a simple point right, who are we to think that we know anything about the end times—much less charting out detailed “prophetic” charts?

Pray. Occupy. Watch.

And leave the end times to the LORD of the end times, for He knows His plan.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
quote:
Originally posted by kenman:
@TallBill, my comment about not reading the books was not intended the way it sounded, I am not going to edit my post so that the reader can here the whole point at the end. You are a very wise Christian man and I have a great deal of respect for your wisdom, I just found it unusual that you were making any comment on something at the time that I thought you may not have had all of the information. Please take no offense at my comment.


Please forgive me for taking so long to make a direct reply. One reason it took so long is that I was marvelling at getting an apology when no offense was seen. From that point, it then struck me that to remember that my perspective is not the only one that matters. Rest assured that I neither saw from you, nor hold against you, any offense.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
In response to the OP...

It doesn't bother me when people make fun of Christians, or even God, when done in a certain light. Quite often it is done by people who know (and possibly believe) in Jesus and the Lord and usually they put an image of christians or of God that doesn't truly match the reality.

This to me become making fun of what people think God is, of what people think it is to be christian. Quite often I see the truth in the humor portrayed... Christians who are self-righteous and hypocritical. Those who hold an image of God that doesn't really match what the Bible tells of him.

I often find the Simpsons to be quite funny, sometimes over the top (as Clint has said). I don't actively watch it anymore, though do enjoy it from time to time.

Keep in mind that just because someone makes fun of someone called "god" it doesn't mean they're truly making fun of the true vision of God. It doesn't even mean that they don't truly uphold the image of God and aren't trying to make people who may have a false image of God take a second look.

In any case it doesn't bother me. If the jokes are funny, I laugh. If I do in fact find them offensive I just don't watch it... what's the difficulty in this situation. If you feel comfortable watching it, then do so, if you don't, then don't.

As for the derailed topic (which I'd think would be better continued in another thread)... the severity of the comments said (especially Bill stating whether or not others that carry a specific belief he disagrees with are not Christians) remind me of my favorite song... So instead of continue with responses (there have been enough of those, I don't have anything new to add) I'll just quote the song... definitely my favorite song from my favorite music group...

Group: Disciple
Album: This Might Sting a Little
Song: I Just Know

Note: this song was nominated for a 2000 dove award

quote:

Chorus:
I just know Jesus is the way
I just know Jesus is the truth
I just know Jesus is the life
I know that Jesus is my God
I know that Jesus is the way
I know that Jesus is the truth
I know that Jesus is the life
I know that Jesus is my God

[chorus]

what makes you different from one another
why do you argue about who you follow
there is no man that you belong to
there's only one God that can claim you

I don't care if you don't speak in tongues
I don't care if you're into submersion
what does it matter if wear a liturgical robe
or prophesy and say God said so

[chorus]

do you serve your name or do you serve mankind
would you feel the same if they took down your sign
could you sit next to me if I was Baptist or Presbyterian
or do I need to be a charismatic or Episcopalian

I don't care if you drink grape juice or if it's wine
and I don't care if you get out of church on time
what does it matter if you praise God with music in your church
or you burn your dead or bury them six feet in the dirt

[chorus]

I don't care if you clap your hands
I don't care if you get out in the aisle and dance
what's it matter if someone lets out a hallelujah shout
have we forgotten what praising Yahweh is all about


Nothing else for me to contribute. Though I am an avid supporter of researching the details and finding the truth... remember what really defines a Christian isn't denomination, doctrine, or whether they believe in a certain interpretation of Revelation. The defining factor of a Christian is whether or not one has been saved by Jesus Christ.

------------------
Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by TallBill:
My research is continuing.

Well, I don’t know where to look for you, man. Typically searching for Left Behind or Dispensational results 50 anti-dispy sites and maybe one pro or neutral site that isn’t loaded with misinformation (as Hans links were loaded with). The sheer magnitude of results is always outstanding, usually sites with big crosses and clear directives to denominationally proselyse even if resorting to claims that it’s from the pits of hell and that the people who believe it are cast away from God (I‘ve heard it many times over many years). I’ve even heard preachers on the radio claim that this is the theology which is causing all the problems in the middle-east since many consider Dispy’s as purely Zionists that are supporting the nation of Israel when they should really be destroyed since they are forever cast away from God as well. It really goes on and on… but while you are searching through all that, you can always listen to some good sermons from http://www.basicchristian.org/download.html

So if you don’t find it, what does that mean? Generally LB talks are directed at attacking the theology it is based on, which is dispensationalism as a whole. Now I certainly do not support the theories of all Dispy’s, some are outright heretical such as many of those on TBN, they add weird stuff to it, but everyone always gets lumped into the same box it always seems. So here I am back looking to see what info you have, but I see you haven’t found it yet. I’ve seen this happen before, though, not with you but with others. They will bring up some wild claim to set off a mob, when pressed, the claim comes up empty, months later they will do it all again.

Generally I just don’t say a thing, like in the past three threads on this subject the first I just gave an emote that I saw the thread and then left it at that. Last one was started by you, I though you were asking questions and interested in a conversation or something, but I was mistaken I quickly realized when you started telling me what I’m suppose to believe by what others are telling you -by their websites I'm sure. And this, well same general thing I guess, but it was just a little too far outlandish for me to ignore, actually quite a damaging statement that could destroy peoples faith if they do not proselyze to your theology. Do you really what such notches on your guns as you walk into Heaven? There just isn’t always a nice little band aid that fixes everything up once the damage is done; speaking of real damage of course, I’m pretty thick skinned actually, for many reasons, but I‘m not the only one on the receiving end.

@Han
http://mp3.calvarychapel.com/twft/c2000/c2154.mp3 (18MB)
or
http://mp3.calvarychapel.com/twft/c2000/m3u/c2154.m3u (stream)

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited June 22, 2007).]

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
Well, I don’t know where to look for you, man. Typically searching for Left Behind or Dispensational results 50 anti-dispy sites and maybe one pro or neutral site that isn’t loaded with misinformation (as Hans links were loaded with). The sheer magnitude of results is always outstanding, usually sites with big crosses and clear directives to denominationally proselyse even if resorting to claims that it’s from the pits of hell and that the people who believe it are cast away from God (I‘ve heard it many times over many years). I’ve even heard preachers on the radio claim that this is the theology which is causing all the problems in the middle-east since many consider Dispy’s as purely Zionists that are supporting the nation of Israel when they should really be destroyed since they are forever cast away from God as well. It really goes on and on… but while you are searching through all that, you can always listen to some good sermons from http://www.basicchristian.org/download.html


I'm not asking anyone to look on my behalf. You really do need to go back and CAREFULLY reread what I actually posted—not what your emotions accused me of meaning. My sources do not lump all dispensationalists into one straw-man category. The fact of the matter is that they are not so much concerned with dispensationalism at all, but, rather, with a movement known as Christian Zionism (one identifying characteristic being that they support the current political state of Israel no matter what they pull against others, such as oppressing Christians, and no matter that they do not believe Jesus), a movement of which LaHaye seems to be a leader. I am not searching for anything at all regarding dispensationalism because dispensationalism is not the point. It never has been the point. Get that through your head. Please.

------------------
Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Warning: Long post of minor-point nit-picking to follow. This is for the purpose of understanding where each other is coming from, and for critiquing each others' thinking as iron sharpens iron -- not as one fighting another.

quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
@Han
http://mp3.calvarychapel.com/twft/c2000/c2154.mp3 (18MB)

Wow, great job finding a sermon that narrowed in on this exact issue! It's a very informative sermon, and I'm enjoying listening to it. Before this, I don't know that I've had much exposure to Calvary Chapel's stuff. I took a bit of time to read around on their site -- he has some very interesting pamphlets written that I skimmed through as well.

Anyways, on to the sermon -- Chuck starts dealing with the issue of the sacrifices around 25 minutes into it. I decided to transcribe a few passages of what he said, to help make things clear for us. I'll add some hilights to draw attention to certain parts.

quote:
24:45
Now, as we look at the OT sacrifices that were made, we realize #1 that they did not actually put away sin. The Lord said that when they make the sacrifice it shall be for a "kophar", which Hebrew word is "covering" and so the sins will be covered -- it doesn't say that they would be put away, they would be covered.


Great -- I totally agree with him on this part. I'm glad that Chuck Smith is such a prolific writer -- I was able to find more detailed commentary by him on this particular issue at BLB.
Quoting from his commentary on 1 John 4:10
quote:
Now the blood of bulls and goats could not put away our sin, but only provide a covering. It took the sacrifice of Jesus to put away our sin. So through Jesus we not only have a covering, but reconciliation. Through Him our hostility with God has come to an end.

I get the impression from Chuck that the OT sacrifices are something more than just a "symbolic memorial" -- something closer to an actual covering of sin. Even though they didn't do it for all time (as Christ did), they were still a covering for the sin that was there.

Back to the audio sermon --

quote:
25:20
Now in Hebrews, we read that it is impossible that the blood of bulls or goats could put away sin. But all they could do was to speak of the better sacrifice that was to come, that is of Jesus. So the OT sacrifices did not put away sin, but they testified of that sacrifice that would come, by which sins would be put away once and for all.


I totally agree here.

quote:
27:06
Even as we have our communion services and we break the bread and we drink the cup in remembrance of what Jesus did in His death for our sins, so when sacrifices are re-instituted in the Kingdom Age, they will not be for the purpose of putting away sin, but they will be memorial offerings by which we will be reminded of the sacrifice by which the sins were put away, and we'll be looking back to the cross, and the sacrifice that was made there by Jesus Christ.


Okay. Here is where he lost me a little bit. We totally agree that they will not be for the purpose of putting away sin -- we've already established that that's impossible. I'm curious as to why he's not mentioning coverings at all at this point. He made it very clear through the buildup in minute 25, as well as a number of commentaries (here and here in addition to the one I linked earlier) here he clearly states that the purpose of the OT sacrifices was to be a kophar -- a covering.

But Chuck doesn't make any mention of that in the last quote -- after minute mark 27, Chuck makes no mention of "covering" anymore, but speaks only of "memorial" and "remembrance" -- if Ezekiel is to be interpreted with a literal hermeneutic as Chuck is following, and the temple sacrifices spoken of are literal and post-Christ, then it seems that those sacrifices have to be covering sacrifices again. But Christ covered and removed our sins once and for all -- there are no sins left to cover.

But if they are memorial sacrifices (different from the other OT sacrifices, which it seems Chuck is saying is more than memorial), then I'm curious as to why Ezekiel refers to them as "covering" or "atonement" sacrifices.

Maybe there isn't a real inconsistency here -- his jump still felt a little odd, and I'm trying to see how this would all gel with the disp. hermeneutic.

Thanks for the sermon! It was extremely informative in helping me understand the disp. point of view.

In Christ,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited June 22, 2007).]

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by TallBill:
I'm not asking anyone to look on my behalf. You really do need to go back and [b]CAREFULLY reread what I actually posted—not what your emotions accused me of meaning. My sources do not lump all dispensationalists into one straw-man category. The fact of the matter is that they are not so much concerned with dispensationalism at all, but, rather, with a movement known as Christian Zionism (one identifying characteristic being that they support the current political state of Israel no matter what they pull against others, such as oppressing Christians, and no matter that they do not believe Jesus), a movement of which LaHaye seems to be a leader. I am not searching for anything at all regarding dispensationalism because dispensationalism is not the point. It never has been the point. Get that through your head. Please.

[/B]


Find that link/info yet? I can search if I want, if LaHaye is saying these heretical things than I want to know about it. But I pretty much doubt such things were said, it would be all over the place at this point, I’ve heard all sorts of things said that were untrue. I don’t agree with all the things LaHaye says, but most of what he says or writes about is based on something that I do believe in; much of the same source.

You mean as opposed to Israel can do no right? Which is pretty much the position of many. I didn’t say I was a Zionist, I said that is what they call us, it‘s actually meant to be an inflammatory name. Israel has a lot of problems, the government is predominantly secular and or liberal (much like America) until the process is complete. But that does not mean that God is not bringing them together for a purpose, for His name sake as He promised them. Generally those who say “Zionist” are those that don’t recognize the right of Israel to exist. LaHaye is leader of NOTHING, you don’t see your “straw man” link in your reasoning yet?

@ Han

Yep, it starts 23 minutes into the mp3. He starts out in the first minute saying that Ezekiel 40-48, that he has the most difficulty understanding than any other thing in the bible. He does not pretend to fully understand it, and having had a lot of exposure to Dr. Smith, often face to face as well, I can say that I can really catch the tones of his voice as he struggles through the best explanation he can provide from his sources.

I mean I’m sure if you examine it to the whole of the bible you could see the difficulty in finding the meanings of such a passage or prophecy. In most cases, important things are resonated throughout the bible, such things are mentioned multiple places all saying the same thing in different ways. By having it written in that way it is much like being able to triangulate on a radio transmission as opposed to listening to a distance beep on a receiver to find your target.

To me, I view this as simply a mystery. Much like the Church was a mystery to the believing Jews before Christ, what happens in the millennial reign of Christ is mostly a Mystery to us, but in that we can know that it is a mystery rather than feeling uncertain or in doubt. The Jews read the scripture, the mention of the Church was right there (as we understand now), but this seems to be much like the same thing where we are looking at a prophecy and really don’t understand it since it is something that has to do with a group of people that are unlike us in the Church age; a dispensation or age to come.

I do believe that when the Church is matured and fully united with Christ, that we will have all the answers to all the mysteries that we deal with now. As far as I have seen, no denomination or theology has all the answers to every mystery of things to come, all things are debatable beyond essentials to the faith, but we can know that they are mysteries that will be unveiled to us in His time. Hey, at least it takes less faith to believe in Christianity than it does to be an atheist.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited June 22, 2007).]

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by HanClinto quoting Chuck Smith:

so when sacrifices are re-instituted in the Kingdom Age

What is the scriptural support for the re-institution of sacrifice? My web search found plenty of sites talking about it, but I saw no scriptural references, only "tradition states." It honestly sounds like yet another scripturally baseless end-times myth like the 3 Days In Darkness or Petrus Romanus.

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+---------+
|steveth45|
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HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by steveth45:
What is the scriptural support for the re-institution of sacrifice?

From what (little) I understand, I think it's a conclusion derived at when you look at the Bible from a "classical" dispensational point of view. Basically, it has as one of its tenants that scripture prophecy is always to be interpreted "literally", and as figuratively only when clearly specified that it is meant to be taken as such.

So this is why, in that sermon by Chuck Colson, he explained that because the temple specs laid out in Ezekiel are to be taken literally, and because it's about a square mile in size (and there is no room anywhere in Jerusalem where this could be built), then it logically follows that this temple can only be built after after a tenth of Israel is destroyed (citing I think Revelation) to make room for it. So he claims the political state of Israel will indeed physically rebuild another temple on the temple mount, but that the temple will be destroyed (again), and this bigger temple will be built in its place some time later.

Understandings such as these all come from one's hermeneutic -- how does one read and understand the Bible? Hermeneutics are not drawn directly from scripture -- they are built on piles and piles of our presuppositions that we bring to the table.

This is the main reason why my theology friends and I chose hermeneutics as our next topic (we started this past week) -- so much of one's understanding rides on it, before you even open up the book.

--clint

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by HanClinto:
This is the main reason why my theology friends and I chose hermeneutics as our next topic (we started this past week) -- so much of one's understanding rides on it, before you even open up the book.


Yes, Hermeneutics. Hank Hanegraaff came to my Church many years ago to teach a seminar on it. It was a good study.
quote:
Originally posted by steveth45:
What is the scriptural support for the re-institution of sacrifice?


Listen to the MP3 and follow along in your bible.


You think this is all controversial with the LB books? my game is based on the same thing at its core. However, nothing directly to do with the LB story, but much of the setting is close but in a fantasy type setting in a Pilgrims Progress sort of way. I’m still refining it, however, over a number of years now, to make it suitable for any Christian to still enjoy, or at least most… maybe. I’m not into proselyzing, however, when I was in seminary I studied Biblical Counseling, so that is more my focus and motivation in most things. Just thought I'd mention that.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited June 22, 2007).]

TallBill

Member

Posts: 298
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: 11-22-2002
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
Find that link/info yet?…

Why do you insist upon taking such an insulting and confrontational tone? When have I ever said that my research involves looking on the web for links? I have not said anything about what methods my research involves.

My research is continuing.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by TallBill:
Why do you insist upon taking such an insulting and confrontational tone? When have I ever said that my research involves looking on the web for links? I have not said anything about what methods my research involves.

My research is continuing.


Cuz I keep checking back here for a reference/link whatever, but all I see is you posting without any info. If you really want to see me write insulting and confrontational stuff, tone… whatever, I can oblige if that is your wish. No one here has really seen me mad, and I’m part Irish so believe me when I say that when I get MAD (insulting/confrontational etc) it won’t be mistaken for anything else in the least, I can be very nasty. I grew up like a dog gettin whacked in a cage, I can unleash that dog for ya… heh but few really deserve that.


You reap what you sow:

quote:
Originally posted by TallBill:
Considering that Left Behind isn't accurate, somebody needs to.


Yes, someone needs to, but regarding something else...

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited June 23, 2007).]

Matt Langley
Member

Posts: 247
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-31-2006
quote:
when I get MAD (insulting/confrontational etc) it won’t be mistaken for anything else in the least, I can be very nasty.

Note something to be proud of or boast about in my opinion. The fact that you openly keep being "very nasty" may be a hint that you should face this as an issue since I would definitely classify that as an issue and not a strength.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Try to suffer each other.
Forgive as you we're forgiven. And then you can show love when you have peace.
This is something to pray for and Jesus can change us.

(Jas 4:1) From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?

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Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] (Contact) - Truedisciple (mp3)

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Langley:
Note something to be proud of or boast about in my opinion. The fact that you openly keep being "very nasty" may be a hint that you should face this as an issue since I would definitely classify that as an issue and not a strength.


You mean like kicking over tables and whipping people?

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by jari:
Try to suffer each other.
Forgive as you we're forgiven. And then you can show love when you have peace.
This is something to pray for and Jesus can change us.

(Jas 4:1) From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?



Yes, but the apostles had hoootly debated differences, even to the point of division. Do you know what I am referencing, Jar?, or shall I post the passage?


Jar, I would rather that you be pungent with me rather than you to simply nod your head and give a yes, yes; to simply act nice. Which do you believe is more Loving? Correction or tolerance?

btw I don't think I am at a war here, need I lock and load? Bar the door and hunker down? War is war.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited June 24, 2007).]

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
Obviously, people here don’t see the importance of the source statement to this argument as being an important thing as I do, to resolve the difference, maybe because you are not in my position. If it were reversed would you feel the same? There seems to already be division here, but not on my account. So fine, I’ll quit asking and checking back for the reference, I’m just going to be hated for asking and looking/waiting. I’m sure he will bring it all up again at some point and beat someone else with it, seems to always happen. But I’m not going to be gaaaanged upon. Fool me once shame on you , fool me twice, shame on me.
Toodles.
Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
You mean like kicking over tables and whipping people?

Ironically, people even argue about this! I brought it up once and somebody said... "He was just whipping the oxen, he "peacefully" 'drove' the moneychangers out."

Uhm, yeah. Peacefully. I'm sure they would have gone quietly. >_>

David Lancaster

Member

Posts: 276
From: Adelaide, Australia
Registered: 05-22-2006
You guys do realise that to avoid long drawn out discussions that get edgey, you simply don't respond to the questions or content of anothers post, pretend like they didn't post it. Let them have the last say, so what if they say such and such. It's easy and fun
Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
Thread lock anyone?
Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
Originally posted by jari:
<quote>Try to suffer each other.
Forgive as you we're forgiven. And then you can show love when you have peace.
This is something to pray for and Jesus can change us.

(Jas 4:1) From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
</QUOTE>

Yes, but the apostles had hoootly debated differences, even to the point of division. Do you know what I am referencing, Jar?, or shall I post the passage?


Jar, I would rather that you be pungent with me rather than you to simply nod your head and give a yes, yes; to simply act nice. Which do you believe is more Loving? Correction or tolerance?


It's right to instruct sinner in the way (to Jesus) and correct brother (in knowledge).

And it's right and loving to do that while thinking the other person's feelings at the same time. We cannot see into people's hearts like Jesus did so I usually wont call anyone serpent or viper. But if God now gives the revelation of some persons intents through a prayer and fasting then it's different.

Here's some scriptures that speak about word and speaking the word:

Mercy and truth:

(Psa 85:10) Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.

"righteousness and peace"


So you see speaking the truth and correcting is right thing to do and it's love of course. But there are many ways to speak the truth and one thing we should know is how to answer everyone and not just state something to everyone.

(Pro 25:11) A word fitly spoken is like apples of gold in pictures of silver.
(Pro 12:18) There is that speaketh like the piercings of a sword: but the tongue of the wise is health.
(Pro 23:9) Speak not in the ears of a fool: for he will despise the wisdom of thy words.
(Pro 16:24) Pleasant words are as an honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.

Grace:

(Col 4:6) Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.

Kindness, patience:

(1Ti 5:1) Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;


So make peace! It results in love and who can change a hardeneth heart?


(2Co 6:11-12) O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged. (12) Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.

(Jud 1:2) Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.

[This message has been edited by jari (edited June 25, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by jari (edited June 25, 2007).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Don't mind if I do, Lava.

*takes one*

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
Obviously, people here don’t see the importance of the source statement to this argument as being an important thing as I do


I certainly see the importance of it, but what I don't see is the value of beleaguering the issue with personal attacks.

quote:
Originally posted by Faith_Warrior:
If you really want to see me write insulting and confrontational stuff, tone… whatever, I can oblige if that is your wish.


Please let me reiterate what I said above: If you (the reader) are finding your temper getting in the way of ecumenical community study, then I strongly suggest that you don't enter into this debate.

This is not a forum for heated arguments and flames. I don't like closing threads -- as long as a thread is still bringing some semblance of benefit to the community, it is my personal preference to trust people to work through issues in a responsible and Christ-honoring manner. If you will not treat each other with grace and decency, then I ask you to take your discussion to other venues (such as e-mail or private messages).

Frankly, I don't see how a continuation on this discussion can help -- it seems that to continue discussion would mostly be a rehashing of things already said.

Feel free to start child threads based on tangential topics that were discussed here (proper attitude in ecumenical Christian debate, hermeneutics, Christian Zionism, whatever) -- discussion can be very good, and I hope for it to continue. This thread has just spiraled down far enough, and I'm calling it closed. Cool off, bathe each other in prayer, and consider humbling yourself to write any apologies that might be in order.

So with all of that, yes please Lava -- I suppose I'll take one too.