ahh, the immortal lines of Ricky Gervais in the (only true) Office.

Now, in two other topics, I've been just short of accused of being disrespectful towards women. for, mainly, I assume, calling them "hot." I'm glad you can feel good about yourselves that you don't use such a scandalous term. *rolls eyes*
seriously. You guys are the reason I say these stuff.
lighten up. These little rules don't matter, it's the big things.
Do you listen to them when they talk? Do respect their opinions?
Do care about their well being?
So, keep up with these little things if you think they really matter and trying to make yourself feel guilty about being a man, but I'll be here continually make these terrible terrible remarks about wanting meet good looking women.
Funny, apparently I'm the one who didn't get excited with the introduction of a female to the board. anywhoo... moving on. my deal isn't important.
even though I was kinda whining about it....

so, instead of derailing those topics, I decided to make this topic about the general controversy about what is disrespectful towards women and what is fine and we are just made to feel guilty about?
I think it's a worthwhile discussion to pursue, as long as we are civil, which I believe we, grand CCNers that we are, are more than capable.

Is it wrong to call a girl hot?
Is it wrong to say you like beautiful women?

and moving on to the big topic... Are men being made to be more feminine as of late? Are we being made to feel guilty about being a guy and the masculine traits that are attached to it? Or men in general too barbaric and need some more civility and sensitivity?

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

I think it's wrong you say you like ugly women... Everyone* is beautiful in God's eyes.

*Everyone as in: everyone who does what they can not to be ugly (ie fixes their hair/teeth/etc. and keeps their clothes nice, when it has holes get rid of it)
Ok, I know thats not really true, He looks on the inside, but still, fix yourself up! :I

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~~~boogie woogie woogie~~~

[This message has been edited by bwoogie (edited June 10, 2007).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:
Is it wrong to call a girl hot?
Is it wrong to say you like beautiful women?

and moving on to the big topic... Are men being made to be more feminine as of late? Are we being made to feel guilty about being a guy and the masculine traits that are attached to it? Or men in general too barbaric and need some more civility and sensitivity?

---

Is it wrong to call a girl hot? Not exactly. The problem is, when reading your posts, I see much more reference to "doing it for the chicks" and "hoping that you get to help some hot girl" than I do to the big, important things. People are usually much too content to only look for something to pick apart about a person or group. As such, comments like those are the ones that will be noticed, and will reinforce a male stereotype.

Is it wrong to say you like beautiful women? I sure hope not. I'm an admirer of beauty; I've written about how women can amplify beauty without a sexualized look. The problem, once again, is that if such comments are all that stand out, then a stereotype is being fueled regardless of underlying intent.

Honestly, this is the first post I can think of where I've seen you talk about girls in the fashion that you have (emphasizing the important signs of respect), but I can think of a lot more where you've made comments to hot girls, etc. The ratio of comments in your posts led me to believe that you had the big and small things reversed. I'm glad to see that I'm wrong. I just want you to see how it is I came to the conclusions that I had.

Finally, society. Society seems to constantly want to push both genders to one of two extremes. Extremely sensitive and caring at the expense of strength, and vice versa. I have long been more feminine in that regard, not wanting to disrespect women, but, in hindsight, such extremes have actually hurt me and the way that such women view me. That's where society gets things wrong: overcompensation. There is a definite balance. Men should be strong and intelligent, but have room for sensitivity with the ones they love. Somehow, we see such things as opposites, and things that need to be held at opposite extremes, when, really, God made us to be both things.

Is that a respectable response? Can you see where I'm coming from?

I really do think this is a good discussion topic, by the way.

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Portal with information on my programming projects and links to my other work

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Matthew 5:27-30

From Jesus’ own words, even thinking such a thing is sin.

So, is it wrong? Your answer will depend upon whether or not you really believe Jesus. Do you believe what Jesus says, or are you looking for excuses to side-step around something that you don’t want to be rid of? This is not rocket science, but seeing the answer for what it truly is will depend strongly upon whether or not you really are a Christian, or are simply making the claim. Not, “Do you believe in Jesus?” but, “Do you BELIEVE Jesus?” Do you believe what Jesus very plainly says, or do you make excuses to avoid doing what He commands? Are you Christian or a pretender?

Is it wrong to say that a girl is hot? Matthew 5:27-30 It is wrong to even think it! Who cares whether or not it is disrespectful? Either way, it is sin!

“Be killing sin, or it will be killing you.” (John Owen)

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

[This message has been edited by TallBill (edited June 10, 2007).]

Unfortunately it's tough to just be a guy in a society that is so sex saturated that any slight hint of sexual drive is misconstrued as a solicitation for sex.

Before I was married, I though certain women were nice, some were beautiful, and some were HOT! (especially asians but enough with my turn-ons)

Nice woman have personality, beautiful women are nice to look at, hot women stimulate the sexual drive. And that's not to say what's hot for me is hot for you. (I didn't mention ugly women which politely fall into the 'nice' category). But even ugly is in the eyes of the beholder.

Now that I'm married (to an asian, btw), I tell her that she's HOT a LOT, and it doesn't bother her at all

Seriously, if a woman responds negatively to your comment about she or someone else being hot. She is either...

1. Picking up on a disrespectful, lustful undertone and is disgusted by it.
2. Jealous about the other woman that you think is hot.
3. Using a defense mechanism to keep herself safe (if you are referring to her), and often behind the guise she is complimented in this case.
[EDIT] 4. Using a defense mechanism because she is not available.

So, keep calling women HOT! If they give you any beef about it, confidently tell them that you don't appreciate their prejudice against your motives. And explain that it is possible to be sexually attracted to women with purity and respect.

Then marry one of those hot women and call her hot a lot. She will appreciate it a lot more than, "Baby, you sure stimulate me sexually, and not in a bad way, I mean.. you know.. not like a piece of meat, but like.. well, I'm not being too derogatory here am i?"

[EDIT] @TallBill - You are assuming a lustful motive. Not all sexual attraction is lustful.

My $0.02,

Sam Washburn

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Sam Washburn

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited June 10, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited June 10, 2007).]

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

quote:

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Originally posted by samw3:
So, keep calling women HOT! If they give you any beef about it, confidently tell them that you don't appreciate their prejudice against your motives. And explain that it is possible to be sexually attracted to women with purity and respect.

Then marry one of those hot women and call her hot a lot. She will appreciate it a lot more than, "Baby, you sure stimulate me sexually, and not in a bad way, I mean.. you know.. not like a piece of meat, but like.. well, I'm not being too derogatory here am i?"

---

Ok, I'm going to have to disagree with the thought of being able to maintain purity with open sexual attraction. Yes, sexual attraction in itself isn't sin, but it's no secret that guys quickly progress from attraction to lust. As such, guys would be doing themselves a favor by not letting themselves be sexually attracted to women as a general rule of thumb. There are two ways to look at how that affects you, the first way (and the way I'm guessing a lot of people will see it this way) is that you're missing out on something good. However, in the second view, you see that you're merely putting off something good for something better.

Which leads to where I strongly agree with you, Sam. Within marriage, thinking one's wife is hot, beautiful, whatever, and being sure to tell her such things, is very, very right and good. Not having trained yourself to look at the beauty/hotness of all of the women around, however, will be most appreciated by your wife. She isn't likely going to want you watching someone else walk by; paying/calling attention to hotness now only sets you up for bad habits later (I realize this doesn't exactly apply to you since you're already married, though).

Also, those four options for responses are bunk. It's also possible that a woman is disgusted by a guy willing to play to a stereotype. It's interesting, though, that you put the fault on the woman in three out of the four options. Seems to me that guys should be held a little more responsible for the things they do instead of just pushing the fault aside because of "mis-perceptions." Such an idea is malarkey. Guys are every bit responsible for what they do, and it's laziness to not act in a way that shows understanding of the society around them. Saying that girls are hot when that will offend people is only going to offend people. You can say that it's the offended parties' faults for being offended, but they're not the ones making such comments.

I'm with Benny on this one. That would definitely be my view. Seems to me that it's just a valid view before marriage as during marriage. Perhaps even more important before hand so that such habits aren't developed. At least within the context of marriage, it's possible (and even good) to be sexually attracted [to your wife] and not worry about inhibiting such things.

My $0.02.

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Portal with information on my programming projects and links to my other work

First let me say that I agree with benny about dating and marriage, and I would like to emphasize that my comments above were for a person who was pursuing a mate. It was not intended for those too young to think about sex, or those just looking for lust.

hmm.. xian.. you do have some valid points. Here are some concerns of mine.

First, God made young men and women, who are looking for a mate to be sexually attractive. It's a part of His creation. A lot of christians these days are so afraid of lust (and viably so) that they squelch this God ordained sexual pursuit of a mate. I do concede that having this sex-saturated culture in the western world makes it difficult to be pure in this regard. But sexual attraction != lust. Sexual attraction is a natural(physical) reaction to the sexual beauty of the opposite sex. Lust is gratifying yourself on the euphoria that accompanies that attraction (selfishness).

Now, about the meaning of "hot". I think my wife is "hot"! I really do. She's not what a lot of others think is hot, but she causes chemical reactions in me that set me on fire. Hot, to me, is about what jump starts your emotions, not about half naked women falling out of their halter-tops (though often they do collide, unfortunately).

About the four responses in my other post. I didn't mean for that list to seem all-inclusive, but they are not "bunk" in my opinion. And, if the woman is disgusted but the guy playing the stereotype, then who is she to judge that man's sexual desires! He might really like the stereotype! By saying that someone is hot, he is only expressing his sexual desires verbally. I'm sure she wouldn't have the same reaction if she also fit the stereotypical bill physically.

I guess it should be said that there is a lot of unrealistic sexual form in the media. The media understands these desires and plays them up. I would definitely not recommend that a young man determine what's hot about a woman(potential mate) by watching movies in the same way that I wouldn't recommend him determining if people can fly or not by watching superman. The media is not reality.

Xian, you are correct, guys are responsible for everything that they do, and same goes for the ladies. In the given situation the lady made the judgment call. Wherever there is a judgment call, there is opportunity for prejudice. The assumption of the conversation was that the guy was NOT lusting, just stating his sexual reactions and the woman prejudging it as "lust".

As for offending people, that happens day-in, day-out. Paul does say that we should be living peaceably with each other "as much as is possible". I don't think that the guy should purposefully state his sexual feeling to hurt someone. i.e. "She's hot" means "and you are ugly".

All in all, I think that if guys learn to express their sexual emotions about gals (especially if its done with other guys) it will foster more communication and accountability an may even help them avoid secret sexual sins since its a kind of release.

Again, I will say that those on the other side of the fence (bill,benny,xian) have good points and concerns. I hope this post will help validate my views. I just remember being a teenager in a strict pseudo-christian home and not being able to express who I thought was "hot" without stern words from my parents. I believe the stewing of those unvented emotions lead me to find sexual release in secret ways.

Sexual release is not only ejaculation. There are times when I desire sex with my hot wife and she, to put it nicely, is not available. I really struggled with this at the beginning of our marriage, because I thought the only way I could release my sexual desires was through sex or masturbation. This lead to a tortured soul and occasional bouts with porn. We had a revival at our church and God impressed me to talk with my wife about the problem and to find the root of it. To make a long story short, talking about my sexual desires for her (talking dirty?, though its really not dirty) and her responding to it, verbally only, was a release. It also deepened the intimacy of our sexual relationship. There are still times when I just have to knuckle down and endure the sexual pressure.

So, in my humble opinion, expressing that a woman is "hot", given the parameters of this and the excellent posts above, is a healthy expression of the God given sexual desires of a man.

God Bless!

Sam Washburn

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Sam Washburn

It's easy to get caught up in "negative" commandments, but then leave out a positive side - that's why Eph. 5:4 is pretty neat, adding "but rather giving of thanks" to supercede the earlier "don't do this!" commands. We also have the grand catch-all, somewhere in Rom. 13 - "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law."

The word "hot" is probably similar to the word "gay". It's been so hijacked by popular culture that any meaning it once had is lost, and it is fairly widely agreed to mean something disrespectful. "Gay" used to mean happy; "hot" used to just be a high temperature, used in slang to describe something popular ("quick-selling"). Looking at who most commonly uses the word, and what for, it's safe to say that on MTV or E! the word is well out-of-line. We well-meaning, Christ-loving youngfolk might "mean" by hot simply pretty or a quick word to describe biochemical reactions; however, we also need to be aware of (although not controlled by) how anyone who hears that will interpret it.

I'm a guy who has often fled to the opposite extreme of calling any young lady hot; I went far enough to pretty well shun most girls even as friends, fearing anything it could degenerate into. Maybe if a word like "hot" has been hijacked, we could take the opportunity to get creative; either invent new words, or even get poetic (think about things like Song of Solomon... the kind of girl that would like being compared to one of Pharaoh's horses is way cool). I hear girls like poetry, or really any effort beyond calling them by a three-letter word any buffoon could come up with.

One other note to consider, which I certainly could have used about 8 years ago, is the effects of positive attention. It's easy for someone like me to go ahead and shun a girl who's already getting everyone else's attention; is that really what she would need? If a girl is popular for her appearance, sadly she is often getting horribly negative attention from guys with mad nasty motives that make Arch look like Mr. Rogers (ha ha, sorry). I've seen this happen, watching a few young ladies I admired from a distance in middle school fall prey to the world's brand of popularity in high school or college; if I had been more active, more willing to offer creative compliments, could that have served them?

@llamma -- thats just wrong (but satirically funny)

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Sam Washburn

Note: This is a real picture of a real person (a woman) someplace in this real world.

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The time for speaking comes rarely, the time for being never departs.
George Macdonald

quote:

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Originally posted by Lazarus:
Well I hope not, Faith.

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I hope not, too, but the bible says that in the last days some will depart from the faith giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons (1 Tim 4:1). There will be a great falling away (see 2 Thess 2:3) and then the Antichrist being revealed.

Once the earth has lost much of its salt (those that carry the gospel of Christ as taught by the bible) it leaves open anything to take dominion over man, and as we are seeing in Europe where Churches are being closed down and replaced with mosques and how South America is being overpowered by Islam (moving North towards North America), it’s just a matter of time the whole world is overtaken by this deception. Personal freedoms and rights, much of which came about because of Christianity especially for women, will dissolve.

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited June 11, 2007).]

quote:

---

Honestly, this is the first post I can think of where I've seen you talk about girls in the fashion that you have (emphasizing the important signs of respect), but I can think of a lot more where you've made comments to hot girls, etc. The ratio of comments in your posts led me to believe that you had the big and small things reversed. I'm glad to see that I'm wrong. I just want you to see how it is I came to the conclusions that I had.

---

I don't preach about respect towards women because A) it's boring, B) no shock value, and C)I'll let my actions do the talking.

I'll continue to joke about picking up chicks, putting women in their place and skirt chasing, and I have 4 reasons why.
1) it insults those who are centered around that. I'm mocking them. If a guy is serious about the only place for a woman is the kitchen, my jokes will more likely than not offend him. and if not, well, he's an idiot and everyone else will see it.
2) I'm drawing out the issue for people who are like that but won't admit (to themselves, even). don't get me wrong, I'm not pointing any fingers nor making accusations, but look at the "Girls topic." I'd "act" as the most whipped person here, but I was the one who wasn't all over Moira. I'm sorry, tho, some of you seemed pretty excited about having a girl on CCN. I honestly don't care if we have girls or don't have girls.
3) I shocks those who take the "respect for women" far too seriously, to unrealistic measures. They can take my joke seriously, but then... anybody who takes a joke seriously ends up becoming one themselves (unless the joke is pretty messed up, which is something to watch for). OR they can toss it off as a joke, but thus admitting to others and themselves that it isn't as serious and there is some wiggle room. The jarring, in many cases, forces people to think beyond their little boxes. After all, it's stagnant water, not the rapids, that breeds disease.
4) lastly. it asserts my heterosexuality. living south of San Francisco, it is more necessary than you think. (but then again... I use gay jokes to do the same...) but I'll be honest, I do really like women. so yeah, part of my joking is serious (about liking women, not being misogynist)

with my two generalizations of people above, I'm not claiming any of you were that, nor am I thinking you guys are (well... maybe Moira is... that signature still makes me cry.)
Xian, the only think I think you were guilty of (if you can even use that term) is taking my jokes seriously. It is over the web and it's harder to detect both satire and sarcasm.

so, summarizing the underlying tone of the above paragraphs, my view of respecting women is not based in small little rules, like whether to call a woman "hot" or "beautiful," but on motivation and a deeper meaning of respect. the little rules creates a pharisetical society, which is far from a respectful society. Jesus had much harsher words for the hypocrites than the sinners.
Then, of course, historically, the church has been too much anti-sex. (and our present culture is too much oversexed. anywhoo...).
God did make sex. and he made it good. sex and sexual attraction(what an awesome way to determine favorable genetics. take that robots, our algorithms are fun) is the sole reason humanity was able to continue through the ages and suggest all of you pay homage to that by-- meh. maybe my terminology will be too much for this forum. just have sex with your wives, okay?

P.S. Samw: ain't nuthin wrong with the asian woman. *high five*
faith warrior: I don't think the burka is gonna be a problem here in the States.
Benny:

quote:

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if you have no intentions/desire to get married then why date?

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

In my vocabulary, "hot" and "hottie" as adjectives for women are nothing more than synonyms for 'gorgeous' or 'stunning' etc. They may be a little stronger than 'pretty' but in the same general catagory.

And on the issue of saying you like beautiful women, any man who says he doesn't is a liar, or gay (and probably still a liar). What each person finds to be beautiful might be different, as they say beauty is in the eys of the beholder.
Obviously, if one becomes obsessive about these things so that they are all you ever talk about, then you've got issues. However, if they come up in a conversation, there is no point in lying about the fact that you like attractive women.

In such conversation it may be important to note that while at first glance, emotion tends to follow attraction, once you get to know people, attraction can follow emotion. Or in otherwords, personality is a big factor in attraction, but you can't really see personality from across the room most of the time.

Yes, men are being feminized
Yes, men need to be more sensitive and less selfish

It is a myth that emotion and sensitivity are not masculine traits.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
I don't preach about respect towards women because A) it's boring, B) no shock value, and C)I'll let my actions do the talking.

---

Acting 'lightly' when it comes to the opposite sex is bad. If you eat snacks all day long your desire for 'real' food diminishes, it also causes all sort of problems to your health. Same thing goes with sex as far as I'm concerned. Adopting a liberal take on the subject and ignoring the rules set by God won't get you any good.
'light' behavior towards women sexuality/jokes with sexual connotation are bad.

I'm not for the approach extremist Muslim embrace (summarized really well in the screenshot Faith_Warrior's put in his post). I believe there is a 'healthy' middle.

Calin.

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Check my C# libraries

[This message has been edited by Calin (edited June 12, 2007).]

So many (even men) get up in arms when I try to point out the guilt of women in this matter. Women in particular will claim, “I'm not trying to get men to think of me sexually! That’s disgusting!” but such a claim does not hold water. There are many ways of attracting men’s eyes without doing so by using sexual elements (one example would be artistic clothing that does not emphasize, and in fact hides, the physical characteristics of the one wearing the clothing), yet almost without exception, women choose to use their physical characteristics to attract the gaze of men. This leaves only one explanation for their choice of attire: they are seeking to attract the sexual attention of men (and Christian women are no exception because they have not been thoroughly taught the wickedness of such a choice; yet Matthew 5:27-30 makes the point abundantly clear all on its own, so that they are still without excuse in the matter). Do not fall for their claims of innocence. They know exactly what they are doing, so they are just as guilty as men in this.

It looks hopeless, but in Christ Jesus all things are possible.

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

Two important things to remember

Men were created to be attracted to the opposite sex. Especially young men. Hormones are God's natural way of getting men fired up to find a suitable wife and create. In that rage of hormones comes terms that mature men and women find offensive. It is not usually under the guise of offense that a young man will do something in this manner, it is part of how we as men are created.

Women were created to be emotional. This is BY a purpose of GOD so that when us Menfolk are out working that the emotional needs of our children are met. Women tend to be offended more often.

So with this said what as Christians following the teachings of Jesus Christ are we to do.

Ok, Did Jesus go down and hang on the street corner hootin at the women passing by. No, he didn't, he showed utmost compassion and respect EVEN to those who by all means under the law should have been killed. Jesus taught us by actions what we should do. Lead by example. DO NOT OFFEND.

So there it is, my take on it. It is not as bad to offend one as to take offense?

BTW the next time you think of telling a girl she is "hot", how about buy her a rose, you'll get a lot farther. . .

Ken

anyhow, I had no idea that Xian and Moira would take it this way.
my stance and reasons still stand until someone can refute them (which I'm more than open to hear, but you'll have to argue with me before I accept it), but I'm sorry to see it ended with a resignation.

Xian (and apparently Moira's) resignation has left me with much to say, but doing so would be talking behind their back.

Not to derail this topic (I also don't want to start another one), I'm curious to know if Xian's criticism of me, or others, was valid. I do take criticism seriously and I want to know is there some consensus to that. It seems that Xian felt strong enough about it to leave CCN and HanClinto.
Thing is, I'm still trying to grasp it. I never insulted either of them, yet Xian called me a jerk(along with other implications) and Moira insulted me through her sig and they get to take it personally? I tried to be rational about it and keep it from getting personal, but apparently that didn't work. Maybe I let some stuff slip that I didn't intend.
it doesn't add up for me, so I want to know your guy's opinions.

Am I a jerk? Have I crossed the line? Was the resignation on my shoulders(or partially)?

(and if I am (and even if I'm not), Mack... is there any way I can have "Veteran Member" changed to "Resident Jerk"? I kinda like that. serves as both a warning and a badge...)

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

quote:

---

Originally posted by Calin:

I'm not for the approach extremist Muslim embrace (summarized really well in the screenshot Faith_Warrior's put in his post). I believe there is a 'healthy' middle.

---

It’s not really extremist though (meaning that it is more common rather than a small group), it is simply Shiite. The most recent example of this is with the Gaza strip currently, it seems that Muslim women reporters that are being seen on the TV news are receiving death threats telling them to cover up or that they will be beheaded. Due to this these women are frightened and many have simply quit their jobs in fear for their lives. Women are simply treated as subhuman in culture, though in the west not even as badly as is happening on other places.

There really isn’t a balance though, not until a man and woman is married. By doing so, they share a completeness that cannot be reached by any other means. Women have a role that is different than men; a man cannot fulfill the roll of a woman and a woman cannot fulfill the role of a man. The roles are different, yet they are no less than one another but even more so valuable. I think one of the best examples of the diversity is in that men are usually pig headed, once we make up our minds about something it takes a wrecking ball to separate us from the thing and even then many will still hold onto the rubble (to fault). For women on the other hand, it is more common to rely on emotion to determine ones belief so a woman can be easily deceived by doing so (to fault). There is a balance between logic and emotion, but not common within a single sex but in unity this is possible.

Anyway, to finally touch on the spirit of the topic, I think it really all comes down to spiritual maturity. Hot is definitely a term that reflects a level of lustfulness. I just don’t see it comparable to calling a woman beautiful. Generally, saying a woman is hot tends to widen they eyes “She’s soooo HOT! *eyes flash open* “ because there is a thought behind those words and it is probably not the thoughts we should be having. Hot seem to be like calling someone a sexy beast, or some form of sexual pleasure toy. I wonder when it will seem like a complement when people start calling women “hot whores” or something. It’s just all to fleshy to get into. Can a woman be “hot” inside as she can be beautiful inside? It’s simply a reference to the lust of the eyes; that she is desired for her body and what she can do with that body rather than who she is as a person.

I suppose some people just rub eachother the wrong way.

Arch, their decision is theirs alone. I actually do not even know/remember who Moira is and I am on here and CCGR. Plus, obviously you were not the only one to offend them.

> Am I a jerk? Have I crossed the line?

Since you asked...

Arch, if I can point out one thing, it is something you posted a few posts up. "I don't preach about respect towards women..." and "I'll continue to joke about it..." That one. Your comments sound like it's your way or no way. I do feel what you wrote as being somewhat disrespectful to those who have a different point of view. To purposely 'insult' and 'mock' is not a healthy attitude. I think that post may have been the final straw for them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by archangel:
Am I a jerk? Have I crossed the line? Was the resignation on my shoulders(or partially)?

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

"Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh."

"Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala.

My Programming and Hacker/Geek related Blog

[This message has been edited by CPUFreak91 (edited June 12, 2007).]

Those who cause problems and then seek to lay the blame for those problems on others should spend more time looking in the mirror and far far far less time trying make others think it's all OK. You ask a question that is already answered in Xian's last post. If you want to seek absolution with him, talk to him, not us. We are not here to serve as your ego-soothing yes-men. The Bible has a direct commandment for this situation: When you know that your brother has ANYTHING against you, YOU GOT TO HIM and make it right with him. you do not discuss it with others in order to feel better about yourself. YOU GO TO HIM!

This is exactly the same disgusting nonsense that was used against me in a supposedly conservative Christian congregation, so I take extreme umbrage when I see it happening to someone else. YOU DO NOT DISCUSS YOUR PROBLEM WITH US! YOU GO TO HIM!!!

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

OK--I looked at your post again--sorry for insuating that you called Arch disgusting--that wasn't a totally correct assertion of the sentence. But still man---to me it seems in your reply you are more die hard about sticking to the written rules in the Bible instead of using them as guidelines to handle situations----the 'brother to brother' thing only works when both parties are truly in it----if my assertion of the situation is correct I see this:

A) Xian and Moira were upset over Arch's comments about the word Hot and how he had trouble finding it offensive

B) They were so 'hurt' and upset by it they felt the need to leave.

This is in addition to the fact she had a sig that was offensive to Arch---so what I see is that they are part of 60% of the world that thinks it is ok to offend others but a mortal sin for someone to offend them. Those kind of people you cannot reason with unless you are willing to be a carbon copy of them. A lot of people can handle talking it out brother to brother--but that extreme reaction over such a mild word shows an abnormality we shouldn't hold Arch for. Heck he has said things that have made me mad before, and I am sure I have ticked people off here before too---it is called life and, if you like the person enough, you are willing to look past it for the positives. To me, chewing out Arch is holding him accountable for Xian's and Moira's actions---and bolding it as if you are yelling makes it even harsher and, in my opinion, doesn't line up with the message of the Bible---if they were still on the board I would say sure why not try to have them mediate it out--but when he left in such a dramatic fashion I say that is his choice--and Arch asking the rest of us comes off to me as him trying to make sure he isn't being overly offensive---in which case we should be nuturing that as a community instead of blasting him.

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[This message has been edited by zookey (edited June 12, 2007).]

Let us embrace an attitude of humility, regarding others more important then ourselves and spur one another on to faith and good deeds.

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"I find myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world!"
-C. S. Lewis

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quote:

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Originally posted by zookey:
TallBill---I have to say you are being kind of heavy there---Xian has already made it clear he doesn't want to talk---so that commandment can only work if both sides are open to discussions---with calling Arch disgusting I say get off the high horse. Quite frankly---that whole talking it over with someone only works with people willing to smooth things over, from here it seems like he was one of those people looking for offense--and I am not even one of the people trying to defend all uses for the word Hot.

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Ahh the problems with forum correspondence, too easy to walk away from a situation or on the other hand too easy to offend without really thinking of the person or persons trying to communicate with you. Never let such correspondence replace your actual church attendance and interaction with other Christians in person.

NOTE: I AM NOT TRYING TO SAY ANYONE HERE OR WHO WAS HERE IS A CON-ARTIST---but I am adding that in since that thought pattern often opens people up for attack when they are trying to do the right thing----you have control over yourself and your relationship with God and Jesus but don't be quick to assume other people will act like how you do.

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quote:

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Originally posted by archangel:
well... The Pharisees weren't exactly not offended by Jesus.

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Absolutely. The point of my comment was not to degrade you at all Arch, it was saying is we each have to work out our own salvation. Where you are in your walk is different that where someone else is. If you went out to INTENTIONALLY offend someone *which you did not, then you are wrong, if it is unintentional then the person that takes offense has an issue.

It is a choice to be offended, just as it is a choice to offend.

Do you quit going to McDonalds, just becuase a customer in line buts in line and spills his coffee on you. You can, but it's not McDonalds fault.

Arch, you really are a good guy.

I'm also not asking people to soothe over my guilt or boost my ego.
I don't feel guilty. I'm wondering if I should, that there is something I missed and that you, my brothers, can point out. I don't see valid backing behind Xian and Moira's actions, but I could have missed something, particularly something edifying.
I thought I handled the situation the best I could. I held my tongue and tried to keep it rational rather than personal, and I admit, there were times when I felt like laying on the insults. But, a person can't always see his own faults.
I'm not asking for "ego-soothing yes-men," I want critics.
In short, I'm practicing your advice, you just didn't know it.

quote:

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Arch, if I can point out one thing, it is something you posted a few posts up. "I don't preach about respect towards women..." and "I'll continue to joke about it..." That one. Your comments sound like it's your way or no way. I do feel what you wrote as being somewhat disrespectful to those who have a different point of view.

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quote:

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No. Could it potentially be more harmful than complimentary? Yes. It depends on the situation and who you are talking to. The best rule is that if you want to give a compliment make sure it is passed in a way where the recieving party will recognize it as such.

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quote:

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This is in addition to the fact she had a sig that was offensive to Arch

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P.S. Zookey and Faith, I think the "Resident Jerk" title would be the coolest thing.
although, it does look like a defense mechanism.. it's not.
It's like the Yankee Doodle Dandy song. was meant as an insult, but is accepted with pride. Europeans frequently refer to Americans as brutish and barbaric. I'd tell them I'd have it no other way.
I'll also accept, on the other extreme, "Mr. Awesome."

Thanks, Kenman.

so, I conclude my essay.
way too much writing. I apologize.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited June 13, 2007).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
as about continuing to joke, I explained my reasoning up above, so they're open for anyone to refute. I do think much of society has become too "polite" for it's own good and I shudder to think of being a "bleeding heart."

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I did refute it. Well, at least mentioned a few things I felt were not quite right. I mentioned how you purposely choose to 'mock'. I don't think that's the right attitude. Arch, think about a real situation (not that this wasn't a real situation). What if this same argument happened between you and your best friend? Or you and your girlfriend? Wife? Anyone close to you? Would you have stated the same things? Would you have taken the same approach?

When trying to make good arguments and an approach is not working, then a change in tactics is needed. If you seriously want to discuss this with Xian then you will need to discuss it on his level. Yes, you may need to be "polite", but if that's what it takes to make your point, then that's what it takes.

Anyone who's married knows you need to learn how to properly discuss issues with your spouse. My wife and I are completely different. I like being told directly if I have done someting wrong. Don't mince words. My wife, on the hand, doesn't like the direct method. She would rather be told in a softer, gentler way. Softer, gentler doesn't work on me. I end up being more confused and thinking, "Huh? Just tell me what it is you want to say."

I already knew my wife's answer, but I asked her about being called 'hot'. She has no problem with me calling her 'hot'.

Obviously, there are different viewpoints on the connotation and meaning behind the word 'hot'. Some find it offensive and some do not.

Thing is, I tried being polite to Xian. I never pointed any fingers and explained my point logically. I did everything short of changing my opinions to meet his whim.

well I have (and generally do) considered and done this in a real situation and it never caused nearly as much drama as with Xian and Moira. And I'm holding back here on CCN, mostly due to the fact that I don't know many of you, nor can you guys see my mood, nor can I see your moods.

so, no. I don't do the same thing in person. I do more, if the situation warrants. But everybody knows I'm joking.

As for the arguments, I expect anyone who criticizes me to have a logical base for it. I'll listen, but you need to prove it. And yes, I would have taken the same approach. I listed out my reasons without resorting to petty squabbling. I can't think of a better way. I wanted to say a lot of things about them and if I did anything different, I probably would have, knowing they'd quit anyways.

I do understand the principle of changing tactics, which some in my family view as manipulative. I, of course, argued against that.
It seems like to me, to argue with Xian, I would need to begin my agreeing with him then use that position to help him see mine by using a middle ground. The "You're Right, But" tactic.
problem is, his position is that I'm a jerk.
and arguing how my "satire," for lack of a better word, is good is easier that arguing how being a jerk is good.

I still think that it is beneficial.
Political correctness is suffocating.

Although I'm still trying to see how me helping with Vietnamese Student Association culture show "for the chicks" hurt Moira's feelings.
unless my manliness exuded through the web and she became jealous.
it's the only logical explanation.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

Maybe she finds it demeaning.
But then, I'm not a woman, so I can't know - and that's why women should explain these things if they expect me to know.

Meh...
I remember an older discussion about the term "hot" here on CCN... nobody resigned over that one.

Good times.

But that's just my opinion

I've been reading the other threads.

In the 1980's, when I was young, I used to share the gospel of Jesus with women, more than I ever did with men. <not joking>

And why was that?

Well, because I share what is important, with WHO I like!
I liked the women! Their looks and personalities, hey it was cool.

The loudmouth guys, aggh, who cares about em? <sorry to be a little non-spiritual>

In conclussion, to be HOT for women, is how males were made, so don't be offended by such things. Are we now offended at Gods plan of spawning all creation?

My Aunt, for example, was a missionary to Mexico years ago and WHY? Was it because she was MOTHER THERESA? No, she did marry a guy from there on the mission field. <not joking> She was attracted to hispanic males at that time...

We have more important things to worry about, like the world going to hell. Hey maybe guys like me and Arch, well we can save all the women?

My Aunt was saving all the males and we are saving all the females.
Why make a big deal about it man? com'on...

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God said to Noah, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth.
Genesis 6:13

[This message has been edited by RA Games (edited June 13, 2007).]

[This message has been edited by RA Games (edited June 13, 2007).]

well, I'm off to vietnam.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

quote:

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Originally posted by RA Games:
Hey Guys,

I've been reading the other threads.

In the 1980's, when I was young, I used to share the gospel of Jesus with women, more than I ever did with men. <not joking>

And why was that?

Well, because I share what is important, with WHO I like!
I liked the women! Their looks and personalities, hey it was cool.

The loudmouth guys, aggh, who cares about em? <sorry to be a little non-spiritual>

In conclussion, to be HOT for women, is how males were made, so don't be offended by such things. Are we now offended at Gods plan of spawning all creation?

My Aunt, for example, was a missionary to Mexico years ago and WHY? Was it because she was MOTHER THERESA? No, she did marry a guy from there on the mission field. <not joking> She was attracted to hispanic males at that time...

We have more important things to worry about, like the world going to hell. Hey maybe guys like me and Arch, well we can save all the women?

My Aunt was saving all the males and we are saving all the females.
Why make a big deal about it man? com'on...

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What, you don't like us men??

j/k. Nice post.
I'd agree especially with your one point - guys like you and Arch will be saving all the females.
Meanwhile, shy guys like me will be off in third-world countries rescuing nuns from the clutches of evil dictators... (that was a good MacGyver episode, wasn't it)

quote:

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Originally posted by Lava:
I think this discussion has full exhausted it's steam.

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Yep. I think this is beginning to slow down. I suspect it may get locked.

I did finally read the last two pages of the "girls" thread so I have some background on how this all started, which is helpful. Crazy how things ended.

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
sorry if you misunderstood me, TallBill.

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I didn't misunderstand anything about what you have been saying. You act like an *** and when it blows up in your face you try to call it a joke. Well, it's not a joke. You have offended and you need to make it right. YOU GO TO HIM!

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Never Forget to Pray!

"...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High."
Charles Haddon Spurgeon, from the pamphlet, "Effective Prayer"

Is it wrong to call women hot? I'm half with Sam here. Its a compliment, however due to the continued environmental pressure of our peers on sexual interests it is often thought of as a sexual remark. Beautiful, pretty, and those type of complements have avoided that trap.

Now as for women, please respect us guys. I just had a vacation in Florida, and I had an EXTREMELY tough time due to your dressing habits. I don't know how to phrase this, but please respect me as well. If you say that men are calling you hot, and you're offended and yet you're wearing bikini's, and sunbathing gear, then that's just wrong.

Perhaps due to my lack of age I'm a bad person on this topic, but this is my 0.01 cents.

TallBill: One wrong doesn't make a right, even secularist children hear that. Just because it might not have been a joke, and he's embarased so he
makes a joke out of it, it doesn't make it right for you to swear, and call him names.
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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

[This message has been edited by Mene-Mene (edited June 14, 2007).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Mene-Mene:
Now as for women, please respect us guys. [/B]

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Well, I promise to try, but please don't think that I'm holier than the pope, okay?

You see Paul the Apostle knew about being driven by the flesh. WE ALL ARE actually! Here read this below:

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ROMANS 7 15-25
15 I don't understand myself at all, for I really want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do the very thing I hate. 16 I know perfectly well that what I am doing is wrong, and my bad conscience shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 But I can't help myself, because it is sin inside me that makes me do these evil things. 18 I know I am rotten through and through so far as my old sinful nature is concerned. No matter which way I turn, I can't make myself do right. I want to, but I can't. 19 When I want to do good, I don't. And when I try not to do wrong, I do it anyway. 20 But if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing it; the sin within me is doing it. 21 It seems to be a fact of life that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love God's law with all my heart. 23 But there is another law at work within me that is at war with my mind. This law wins the fight and makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin? F24 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin.
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So, you see we the earth if full of DUMB creatures right now and they are all driven by fleshly desires.

We try, but we will fail at times. We are all driven by our flesh and some more than others. Can we escape? Did Paul escape? Are we better than him? WHO CAN ESCAPE?

The earth is full of DUMB creatures and humans are included.

Btw, in my new game, I will have the humans morph into animals. They will turn into animals.
There is a reason for this. For I have indeed learnt these facts late in my life.

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God said to Noah, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth.
Genesis 6:13

[This message has been edited by RA Games (edited June 14, 2007).]

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

It can be. It's all on intention and the meaning behind the word said by the individual. Many words are said in different ways, by different people, to mean different things.

Does saying a woman is "hot" = lust... I would have to say it definitely does not.

Do I think that usually when a man says a women is "hot" it does = lust... most definitely lol.

Finding someone physically attractive and lusting over them are two different beasts... the former is usually a per-cursor to the later, though not always.

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Matthew Langley
Lead Documentation Engineer
GarageGames

quote:

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Originally posted by TallBill:
I didn't misunderstand anything about what you have been saying. You act like an *** and when it blows up in your face you try to call it a joke. Well, it's not a joke. You have offended and you need to make it right. [b]YOU GO TO HIM!
[/B]

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He's not interested in continuing and it would disrespectful for me to push that on him. Besides, they are in the wrong. I am ethically opposed to that sort of sensitivity. People like them try to get prayers taken out of schools.
I wanted to know what you guys had to say about this matter, and I thank S2 for his criticism ( I am thinking about what you said).

so what inside knowledge, tell me, do you have to prove that they weren't jokes? yeah, gee, sherlock. you're right! I was serious. I totally didn't know that! thanks for telling me how I am, because, golly wolly, I thought I was joking.[/sarcasm]

chalk up one point for unsubstantiated accusations.

maybe I should quit. I wonder what'd you'd have to do...

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

Now as for why my excitement over a new Girl? It was because Girls have different opinions, and psychological complexes, and so its nice to hear both sides of the debate.

A good way to end this would be:

quote:

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from Moira
Arch: Your comments, and way of joking about the genders bothers me alot. Would you please stop joking in this manner? It really offends me.

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quote:

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From Arch
Moira: I'm sorry that I have offended you in this matter, rest assuredly that this was not to hurt you. (Best solution would be to ask God to help you not to joke around in this manner around those offended, but I realize this is tough)

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quote:

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From Bible:
And forgive us our tresspasses (sins) as we forgive those who tresspass against us.

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Let it slide, and go, forgive eachother, and be done with it. Running away from your problems hurts both parties.

Anyway, I realize that this is a rather unrealistic situation, but please forgive eachother and be done with it.
And please stay everybody.
[/quote]

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

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LUKE 6:36-37
Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
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JESUS tells us all to not judge our brothers, if we ever met them in real life, but some of you guys do worse and judge based upon text typed on an internet forum. How can this be?

If me and Arch have a problem, then you guys are supposed to help us and not just insult us and leave with a "holier than thou" type of attitude.

We all have faults and strengths, and somebody's strength is anothers weakness. Why trash each other for it? Doing this is NOT of God.

Talk to you later.
Randall...

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God said to Noah, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth.
Genesis 6:13

and no, I wasn't threatening leaving. I didn't mean for it to be taken in that manner.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
okay, I am gonna have to apologize for losing it there.

and no, I wasn't threatening leaving. I didn't mean for it to be taken in that manner.

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Thank goodness.

Btw Lava, you left off a y in your post.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mene-Mene:
RA: What gender are you?

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Out of respect, I should answer. lol

Here is my picture below at the 2004 CGDC.
I'm that old guy named Randall...

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God said to Noah, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth.
Genesis 6:13