BrentLatham Member Posts: 27 From: England Registered: 03-29-2007 |
Hold the phone - I've just read a couple of posts where at least two peeps thought that no kissing before marriage was a good thing to aim for.
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Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
Can I stop holding the phone now? Why is that so "unreal", if I may ask? |
jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
Do you have a girlfriend? lol ------------------ |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
No. Nor the temporary insanity required to want to spend hours making out with that girlfriend either... |
jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
it's kind of too bad we don't have many girls on here to give their point of view on this sort of thing. ------------------ |
samw3 Member Posts: 542 From: Toccoa, GA, USA Registered: 08-15-2006 |
I kissed my wife before marriage. But, there is a part of me that wished I had waited. We were both virgins however and it was beautifully pure on our honeymoon. The marriage ceremony is (should be) a milestone that marks the bonding of two people into one couple. And that ceremony is sealed with a kiss. The kiss on the lips (for most cultures) is the first step toward that bond. When the commitment comes first, it becomes the foundation of the relationship. Could you imagine dating/marrying someone you have never kissed (or had sex with for that matter)? The relationship would have to be so much stronger since there wouldn't be the hormones there to blind you. As a couple grows older and closer to each other, the chemical punch of sex becomes less and less. There is less forbidden fruit, i guess. But the intimacy is something you could never have otherwise. But, if the foundation of your relationship is chemistry, it will crumble as the chemistry dwindles. So, to sum up, I'd look at it like a challenge! If you could pull off being totally pure before marriage (a really tough thing for a teen to do), you and you spouse will be blessed with an incredible foundation for a family that the post-modern culture couldn't shake. But, if you go the other route, trust God and love your wife only (more than yourself) and you'll be ok. IMHO, ------------------ |
InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
Someone once said is that stuff like that should be to "show affection" and not "create passion" ------------------ |
Tonnyx Member Posts: 140 From: Indiana, USA Registered: 08-02-2005 |
quote: Well, since I'm one of the few females here, I guess I'll weigh in. I'm not one to lay down hard-and-fast legalistic absolutes about how one should go about these things. My main concern in relationships is that one goes about it rightly, and Christian couples should make sure that Christ is lord of their relationship as well as other areas of their life. It's often very hard to submit this particular area to Christ, trust him with it, and approach with godly wisdom. The Bible has a lot to say about lust and avoiding sexual sins. I'm sure you've heard them before. Job, as an example, says, "I made a covenant with my eyes; how then could I gaze at a virgin?" Proverbs talks a lot about avoiding adultery; Jesus makes it clear that even looking with lust is tantamount to adultery itself. I know couples who chose not to even hold hands before they were married. They didn't even touch when sitting next to each other. Others do choose to hold hands, but not kiss. Others kiss. Etc., etc. I will say this: on the continuum of ways a couple can have physical contact, it is dramatically harder, after a couple starts kissing, to refrain from going farther. Seriously. You're already in extremely close proximity, and, you're probably not around other people (unless you're one of those gross couples who make out in public). God wired our bodies in such a way as to be physically attracted to people. Kissing is one thing that can pretty much short-circuit your brain and jump-start your hormones. Use with caution. On the other hand, I know couples who chose to kiss beforehand, and it wasn't a big deal to them. I've noticed that a number of those couples were people who had had prior relationships either with non-Christians, and/or prior to their becoming Christians. I suspect that the novelty wasn't there as much for them as it would be for people who didn't grow up casually dating & kissing people. Most of my friends who grew up in Christian homes and kissed before they were married, wish that they hadn't, even if they ended up marrying that person. Until you're actually married to a person, don't forget that you're dealing with someone else's future spouse. Be careful! ------------------ |
CPUFreak91 Member Posts: 2337 From: Registered: 02-01-2005 |
quote: How is that not real? My girlfriend and I vowed never to kiss each other unless we were married. I believe kissing before marrige is like eating your desert before the meal. Sure the desert tastes good, but it makes the rest of the meal (your life/teenage-hood) taste kinda bland. The way I see it, is don't eat your desert before the rest of your meal. That way you enjoy the full flavour of the meal, and savor the desert for the rest of the day. Patience is a virtue, and it can bring great results.
quote: I personally believe that. Very true. It is a challenge, but so is being a Christian in this world today. I think of it as, "What's one more challenge?". Not that I'm machistic or anything but being a Christian is probably the hardest thing in life. If so, what's another small burden that will bring you even more joy in the long run? I look towards the future, and don't really live in the present.
quote: I agree, and athough that is not the main reason I vowed never to kiss a girl before marrige, it is still very high on my list. Well put. ------------------ "Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." "Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala. |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
I know people who have had their first kiss at the alter, and I respect them for that. it's not for me, tho. This is a matter of conviction, not biblical commands. [quote]Nor the temporary insanity required to want to spend hours making out with that girlfriend either...[/quote[ respect. ------------------ |
InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
quote:
I discovered that for myself kissing tends to create passion and I just makes me want to go further. When handling these sort of things it's important to make decisions that are spirit led and not a decision that is governed by legalism. ------------------ |
bennythebear Member Posts: 1225 From: kentucky,usa Registered: 12-13-2003 |
... [/B][/QUOTE] ------------------ proverbs 25:7 www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs |
BrentLatham Member Posts: 27 From: England Registered: 03-29-2007 |
On a side note I've noticed that the word 'Legalism' or 'legalistic' appears at least once in just about every thread! Anyway, onto the subject and the only thing I can come up with that explains these differences must be down to culture! I also think that it can't be just kissing that we are talking about but snogging (making out). I just can't imagine two people getting married having not kissed at all...it's just unthinkable! hmm...before I start I probably need to say that I married a girl of 18/19 at the age of 21 and we have been married for 14 years. That should at least give me a degree of allowance in responding to the various posts!
quote: Personally, I doubt that. The real truth is the first time you have sex and more than likely a few times after it isn't that great but nothing is the first time. 5 years of practice and its brilliant, 10 years of practice and its fantastic, 15 years and its phenominal, 20 years...
quote: Obviously no I can't imagine that and as my paragraph above states, the chemical punch of sex just gets better and better! Reading the quoted passage I can't help thinking that there are two types of marriages being talked about here (I mean not just the quoted passage but in a number of posts) and they are: A marriage with Leah Both marriages worked but one marriage was far happier than the other!
quote: ...And this maybe why some marriages fail because they stop trying once they're married. Before marriage they open doors, give flowers and generally spend most of their time with their partners and then once they are married, they stop all that and do more things with their friends than their partners...wrong...wrong...wrong... Those words "I don't love you anymore" is a simpler way of saying "I don't want to love you anymore"!
quote: No, no, no...kissing isn't the desert my friend...it's not even close to it...but it is the wine and you can drink the wine before the meal starts, during the meal and afterwards...but if your not married don't get drunk on it!
quote: The kiss at the alter is not that great, generally speaking everyone is watching and clapping and the wedding dress is huge so you have to do a lot of leaning over etc...and if that is going to their first kiss I doubt very much that they would even plant it correctly. Not only that, your wedding is like a dream (literally). You kind of remember it but you don't really, everyone is congratualting you and your standing there beside your partner and life is just bliss and throughout the whole time people guide you from one point to another because generally speaking you just haven't really any idea what's going on because you are so...delirious with happiness! So what about me...well I have to say I based my ideas on Song of Songs - and this is me speaking here, I am not saying that this is biblical or anything like that...this is my thoughts only. The first chapter - They are going out (Kissing, excitement, passion) My thoughts are if you are going out with a girl that you are not sure you want to marry or not - why are you going out. If you are going out with a girl and can't snog her without fondling her then don't. If you are engaged to a girl and can't fondle her etc without having sex then don't. In both of the above cases I suggest you get married quickly! ------------------ |
InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
"No, no, no...kissing isn't the desert my friend...it's not even close to it...but it is the wine and you can drink the wine before the meal starts, during the meal and afterwards...but if your not married don't get drunk on it!"
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Matt Langley Member Posts: 247 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-31-2006 |
quote: I don't doubt... he said "beautifully pure" and I think that is a fitting description of waiting until your married before having sex, the ultimate and most pure gift to your life companion. He didn't say it was the best they ever had or they were the most skilled... simply "beautifully pure". My first night with my wife was beautifully pure as well, the best we ever had, of course not, though still unmatched to any other night on many other levels...
With that said, I still think you should value a kiss... I think it's a sign of affection meant for the one you wish to be with. My wife and I kissed before we were married, though she was the first person I ever kissed. I always felt it was an important part of myself I was giving away so I waited until I found the one I knew I would be with. ------------------ |
CPUFreak91 Member Posts: 2337 From: Registered: 02-01-2005 |
Hehe. Your wine analogy is much better than my desert/food one. The only thing I would change would be that the "wine" (for me) would make me feel nasty until I've married, when I can enjoy it's flavour.
quote: Perhaps it is unthinkable in this day and in our culture, but thousands of people who lived in colonial times, or even in the early 1900s abstained from kissing before marrige. I've discovered that there's a lot of good thoughts, customs, and beliefs in the days of old which we should not forget. I've noticed the the change in mentality in the past century by observing history: Mid1900s: Kissing is rarely taboo (if done in private), pre-martial sex is still not commonly practiced, contraceptives are slowly becoming legal, abortion is unheard of or not legal. Late 1900s: Kissing is a common thing, pre-martial sex is something "everyone" does, contraceptives are prefectly legal, abortion is legal, homosexuality is popular. Now, this is entirely my opinion, and because I'm not married or very old you are free to disagree with me and correct me, but I've noticed that once kissing was not taboo, people started to sin more by moving on to more lustful pleasures. During the mid 1900s contraceptives became legal, so pre-martial sex was lifted of all burdens of parent-hood. This also lifted the commitment mentality of marriage. Go do whatever your want, because there are no consequences. Once abortion became legal, careless teens could now have "unprotected" sex and if the girl became pregnant.. ah well too bad, just go to the abortion clinic. The word marrige is now some obfuscated word that has no meaning except to people who don't want to get with the times. It all started with lifting the taboo on kissing. Then those people who didn't have self control went further and further until the decided that it was fun to have sex with members of the same gender. So that's why I abstain from kissing. I have no idea where my self control ends, because I haven't bothered to test it. I'm perfectly content with that as I feel the guidance of the holy spirit. First time I drove a car (at age 13) I was wandering all over the road, and used the brakes like they were some kind of chisel. If I needed to stop, I repeatedly stepped on them as hard as I could for a second or two until the car stopped. Now, even though my Dad probably wanted to die laughing, and I feel very stupid about it now, I still love to drive cars. Why can't it be the same thing with a kiss at the altar? So what you scew up the first time, you're hopefully not in it for just the kiss. No offense, but anyone who feels like that probably shouldn't get married quickly unless they felt that God was leading them in the right direction. ------------------ "Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." "Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala. |
InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
These types of sins still regularly took place, we just don't hear about them. All we see is "Leave it to Beaver".
regardless, even if earlier times were more moralistic, that moralistic view has no power to save nor would I consider it to even be "closer to Christ" I would rather people be totally sinful and realize their depravity than to be moralisitic and be blind to their nature. History is romanticized, lo, man is sinful through and through ------------------ |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
quote: yeah... cuz he'd have no idea what it was like. *rolls eyes* ------------------ |
BrentLatham Member Posts: 27 From: England Registered: 03-29-2007 |
Yeah, its an interesting one about history, I don't think there is anything new under the sun that man does, it certainly is possible that the intensity of mans depravity does go round in cycles ...I did write more about this but then I found myself waffling on about Kings and Chronicles which was totally off the subject .
quote: Let me rephrase what I was saying regarding the above quote. As a Christian, you shouldn't be going out with somebody you do not think you are going to marry or could not see marrying. If you are going out with someone because he/she is a friend and they asked you out then I think that is wrong. However its a personal opinion, I just think having a girlfriend/boyfriend for the sake of it is wrong. So considering the above we can now take it for red that the person you are going out with is someone you want to marry.
quote: So if you think it's likely that you are going to fall then by all means get married quickly so that you can enjoy each other with God's blessing, otherwise the enemy will be knocking at the door doing everything in its power to make the situation as worse as possible.
quote: I probably should say that both my wife and I were virgins when we were married as well...and for the last 14 years every time we make love it is and will always be ..."beautifully pure"... It is beautifully pure because I am the only one who has ever touched my wife and I can touch her with God's blessing. I've been sitting here thinking about this and I've come to the conclusion that Christians really make the marriage night a big thing so that it's like a reward for staying a virgin...and its wrong! The only reason that you shouldn't sleep with people before marriage is because God doesn't like it! I tell you what its like...you here people say that "being at their baby's delivery was a life changing experience" I have two children and let me say this that the wife is in pain, the smell is terrible, there's a lot of cleaning up and most of it is poo and generally speaking you feel helpless and useless as you stand there urging your wife on and praying to God for a good safe delivery. It is not a life changing experience in anyway but it is new and different! What a horrible subject to finish on...sorry about that ------------------ |
TallBill Member Posts: 298 From: St. Louis, MO Registered: 11-22-2002 |
One thing that strikes me is the tendency by people who claim to be Christian to respond to entirely Biblical principals that they don't like by crying “legalism!” The principal of not kissing before marriage has nothing at all to do with genuine legalism, but rather the very Biblical, very Christian, very Christ-like desire to avoid sin in one's own life and to not be the cause of sin in anyone else's life. If you would rather embrace or tantalize sin than avoid it and even wipe it off the face of your own life and those of others, how can you possibly call yourself Christian? This is a matter of the heart, not of outward appearance, and therefore has nothing at all to do with legalism. ------------------ "...prayer itself is an art which only the Holy Ghost can teach us. He is the giver of all prayer. Pray for prayer---pray till you can pray; pray to be helped to pray, and give not up praying because you cannot pray, for it is when you think you cannot pray that you are most praying. Sometimes when you have no sort of comfort in your supplications, it is then that your heart---all broken and cast down---is really wrestling and truly prevailing with the Most High." |
InsanePoet Member Posts: 638 From: Vermont, USA Registered: 03-12-2003 |
It all depends on why things are done. It is more about the motives of the heart rather than the actions themselves. Just as not drinking alcohol can be either legalism or an honest God directed motive, so not kissing before marriage can be. I agree kissing can be very dangerous and can lead to temptation but not engaging in such in act because of a mere intellectual understanding and an attitude that is not considering the motives of the heart is not a spirit lead decision and is legalism. Not to say that all who make such a decision are guilty of legalism or that making such a decision would be legalistic, because as aforementioned, I agree that kissing can be very dangerous and a decision made on the basis that it will lead the individuals involved into temptation would be a wise decision. ------------------ [This message has been edited by insanepoet (edited April 14, 2007).] |
JeTSpice Member Posts: 433 From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA Registered: 06-10-2006 |
My wife and I didn't kiss until we were married. It was very difficult. It was a sacrifice, and it set a great foundation for our marriage. After a person marries, they can't go back and "never kiss." The time before marriage is the only time a person has the opportunity to excersize restraint. "Not kissing" after marriage gains nothing. But since success in marriage is based on self sacrifice, a sacrifice of "not kissing" sets a strong foundation. My wife and I have been sacrificing for each other, starting with "not kissing" from before we were married. Oops, she's calling me... gotta go. |
SSquared Member Posts: 654 From: Pacific Northwest Registered: 03-22-2005 |
Brentlatham, your depictions and descriptions are RIGHT on and describe a reality over the fantasized image we sometimes perceive in our heads. I enjoy your take on things. My wife and I kissed before marriage and I have absolutely no regrets. I've never thought twice about it. I also never kissed anyone else, so perhaps I'd feel different had I kissed someone I did not marry. At the level of kissing, I feel it's between the couple and God. If kissing is going to lead you down a slope, then kissing may need to remain off limits until marriage. I will state again, had I kissed someone who I did not eventually marry, I may have regrets, and different opinions. |
Mene-Mene Member Posts: 1398 From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA Registered: 10-23-2006 |
Personally I think its best not to kiss before marriage. Perhaps later in life I'll think otherwise, but right now, I don't really think of any physical interaction as being a course, or an enjoyable objectism. I realize that you were merely being metaphorical, but I don't think of it being a reward. I suppose like a fool, the main thing I look foward is the hope of children, and knowledge of that which was hidden. If the amount of worth an opinion is graded upon the experience of the author, I admit my opinion is worth nothing at all. I've never had a lip-kiss, never been married, never had intimate physical relations with a woman, never gone beyond cheek-kisses with my mother and sister, and never had a girlfriend, though many girl friends. I don't mind too much a cheek kiss before marriage, but I disagree with lip-kissing. As for no-kissing bef ------------------ I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time. [This message has been edited by Mene-Mene (edited April 14, 2007).] [This message has been edited by Mene-Mene (edited April 14, 2007).] |
BrentLatham Member Posts: 27 From: England Registered: 03-29-2007 |
Mene-Mene, you are indeed very welcome to make your opinion even though you may not feel that you have the experience to back your opinions up. Possibly a good side-effect of posting on forums is that you can use them as reference points, and when you do finally find Eve you will be able to look back at your post and either agree or dissagree with yourself. Having gone through the posts I think this thread has probably run it's course. I think at the end of the day it probably is a culture thing, I've never heard anything like this before but there seems to be a reasonable amount of members that lean towards that end! The wine analogy unfortunately isn't mine, I think if you read the Song of Songs I would bet that you would come across the metaphor there.
quote: I'm not totally sure what you meant by that but a kiss isn't to be viewed as a reward. I'm half tempted to do a search on the internet to find a good definition of what a kiss is but that's probably going to far. ...ah...Maybe we have just hit on what the real underlying issue is here...maybe its not really anything to do with what's right or wrong, legalistic views etc etc...it's all down to how much importance you place in the kiss! I started going back over the threads and came across this webpage while looking for cultures that don't end the marriage ceremony with a kiss (samw3's post)
quote: For me the kiss is simply the signal that everyone can stop holding their breath and start cheering! Anyway, it got me thinking about how many non-westernised cultures actually kiss as part of the wedding ceremony so I went onto google and found this web-page. Completely irrelevant to what I was searching on but appropriate to this thread. Before I paste in the link let me just say that I think not kissing because you are setting a foundation of self-sacrifice/committment is wrong. Yes marriage does require a lot of self-sacrifice but it usually always comes in the form of having to stay in because your wife wants you to rather than going out with your mates. Having to do the washing up while the football is on. Getting up early on a Saturday to take the kids swimming instead of getting the much needed lay in! That's agape love...its doing things you don't want to do for another person. You are talking about Philia love because it benefits you both! Anyway, have a look at this link - Interestingly it does say what we have already covered -
quote:
Anyway, good discussion guys...I will look forward to the next one. ------------------ |
Realm Master Member Posts: 1971 From: USA Registered: 05-15-2005 |
Well, Jesus never (to my knowledge) said anything about kissing before or after marriage. And kissing before marriage can't be sinful. Really, comon. I could lead to a more harmful breakup, or a more close realtinoship. A kiss could lead to something bad, but only if you let it. Its really a matter of opinion, really. Its your own choice. seriously. ------------------
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BrentLatham Member Posts: 27 From: England Registered: 03-29-2007 |
I don't think anyone here has said or believes that kissing before marriage is sinful, the members that are against kissing just believe that it creates a better foundation for marriage and that kissing could possibly lead to pre-marital sex. In both cases they have a point but you say it is personal preference. I just raised the discussion because I have never heard of anyone not kissing before marriage and being a romantic would not be able to have a girlfriend without kissing her! ------------------ |
CPUFreak91 Member Posts: 2337 From: Registered: 02-01-2005 |
*Whew* been kinda busy lately. I'll respond to the above later, right now this won't take up too much of my time. EDIT: Then again, I may not have to reply to the above at all.
quote: Yup. Hrmm. Romantic. Not my forte. But I _do_ know it's possible to be romantic without having to kiss. However I have no opinions, experience, or even bothered to pay attention to romantic stuff. I think the whole concept of being "romantic" is over-rated by the media, the movie industry, and society in general. There aren't any guidelines in the Bible about that either. ------------------ "Oh, bother," said the Borg. "We've assimilated Pooh." "Socialism works great... if there are no people involved." -- Pastor David Ginter, Union Church of Guatemala. My Programming and Hacker/Geek related Blog [This message has been edited by CPUFreak91 (edited April 16, 2007).] |
bennythebear Member Posts: 1225 From: kentucky,usa Registered: 12-13-2003 |
romance is over-rated by a lot of people. i believe not kissing before marriage can be a good thing. but, kissing isn't always a sexual thing, sometimes it's the same as a hug...hence the "brotherly kiss" or "holy kiss"(can't remember exactly)...kisses to show affection/love. we're just to tainted of a people to get that. ------------------ proverbs 25:7 www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs |