I've had a problem with Christian games for a while now. Let's take one from late, Left Behind. Given the simple fact that I could hevaly complain about the book's concepts alone, much less the idea of as long as I keep hurrassing people on a street they will become believers.

Then after making our own beliefs into a basic fantasy that has no real backing is silly. God changes the hearts of men, not men. I've heard the argument, we're just doing a what if. I don't feel comfterbul turning the Bible into a what if concept.

So how do you go about making a Christian game then at all? That's easy and I have examples. FPS, let's face it, none of them really have a story behind the action in them. Still there is normaly some short little blurb as to why the happenings are happening. So why not give it something plausable, such as "You joined the meriens to protect your family and contry, but you never knew the goverment you work for would ask you to betray them."

You've got something going right there. You can take it all at the princibles it should be. Start the character off in some battle (Other than one that is durring WWII). Have them run through some basic missions that are justified under serving your contry. Then give it a twist when the goverment wants you to do something that brakes your pricibles.

You could have a lot of different routs with that. Of corse the next complaint would be RPGs. Why does the RPG have to have Jesus in it? Think about it. Jesus would say to pray and wait on the Lord. Sounds like a dull game. So write the story from a Christian world view. Have the characters live by that view. Don't give them the same old easy, "I'm Link, I can open any chest in anyone's house and take whatever is in it. It's not steeling right."

In short the idea should be to give people good examples of life styles. Instead of "God of War" that granted looks good, but at one point you need to have sex with two girls and press the keys just right to do your thing. If there is going to be a naked woman in your game, you should offer her clothing and be a pricipal man.

Anyhoot, now that I've tooted my horn. What do you guys/girls think?

(P.S. If this subject has been covered, sorry; I haven't been here in years. I may delete this post myself hahaha.)

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

You and Arch.. inflammatory comments flow like the wind.

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

The problem with your thing is the people who will take advantage of that and do the wrong thing.

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I reserve the full right to change my views/theories at any time.

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angel:
Let the flaming begin - har-har-har.

I've had a problem with Christian games for a while now. Let's take one from late, Left Behind. Given the simple fact that I could hevaly complain about the book's concepts alone, much less the idea of as long as I keep hurrassing people on a street they will become believers.

---

Have you played the Left Behind game (even the demo)?

[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited April 06, 2007).]

would it be wrong to say it's one of the best Christian games on the market currently?

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Junior Programmer www.auran.com
Quality Assurance Lead www.rebelplanetcreations.com

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angel:
So write the story from a Christian world view. Have the characters live by that view. Don't give them the same old easy, "I'm Link, I can open any chest in anyone's house and take whatever is in it. It's not steeling right."

---

I tend to agree with this very whole-heartedly, and it's one of the reasons that I'm trying to create good games for the sake of gaming, rather than feeling it has to have an explicit gospel message thrown in the player's face. The Bible says that even the heavens declare the glory of God, and I think that we can declare the glory of God in more ways than just passing out digital tracts (not that there isn't a place for digital tracts, but I'm just pretty sure that there is room for more Christian art than just that).

In the off chance that you might be interested, here's a sermon that I heard one time that did a lot to influence how I think about how Christ is King over the Arts.

--clint

Matthew 24 :6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (The whole chapter is great though.)

Just those two scriptures alone, that I've been stuck to for fifteen years, the idea of the end times is a subject not worth covering. I should try to be ready every day, every hour, and when I can pass the good news to others.

Not to mention by a good rule of thumb, if the book stunk, the movie will, and if the movie does the more so a game will. I've never seen otherwise. The books couldn't even remotly draw my interest, the movies were dry and I wish I could have burnt the dvd they were on to ashes. There is no way you're going to get me to play that game.

Just my openions there.

dartsman,
I'm going to check that game out to see what it's about.

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angel:
LAVA,
I've seen the movies, and after seeing the review of the game on G4, I have little dobt it is any better than they said it was. I don't think I'd even blemish my hardrive with a demo of the game. The end times is an overblown subject that shouldn't be.

---

Ok, because looking on your original post, to my understanding and what I played, the game doesnt "harass" people to become believers. And if someone who has played game says otherwise, please prove me wrong.

But the game was still off in alot of areas in imo, such as the way it portrayed musicians, and I think recruiting believers or saving people in a game is wrong and too "vending machine" for me. It's the Holy Spirit that gets people truly saved, and it's something that shouldn't be replicated in a game imo.

Also putting doctrine aside, I think it would've been to a higher standard if made a few years ago graphics wise and the gameplay has alot of bugs.

So I agree with your premise, just clearing up that the game isn't a Christian jihad as I see alot of people make it out to be, even if it is wrong in other areas.

[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited April 06, 2007).]

HanClinto,
Glad I could amuse. That link you have didn't want to load for me. It may just be my pc. From the title though I can get the idea. I grew up with an open mind that pretty much all forms of media can be used to minister. Sept maybe porn.

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

But graphics do show how much work someone puts into a game. Even the old PSX games and newer PSP games have simpler graphics because of their limitations, but they're still quality, I don't think the graphics were of quality in LB: EF. Maybe if the game was indie I'd cut it more slack.

So yes, gameplay should be a better focus, and sadly most newer games have more of a focus on graphics. Though like I said, graphics also show much you put into a game and they can bring a game experience to new heights in realisim.

You didn't say graphics weren't important, but -- I think if graphics weren't important we'd all be playing text-based and board games.

[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited April 06, 2007).]

Well I'm just kicking back right now getting music together. I'll check back tomrow I guess to see what's up. You have a good one Lava.

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

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quote:

---

Originally posted by LAVA:
I don't rate a game on graphics, though it does the help...).]

---

i agree with this part a lot. most of my gaming time is spent on online tick/turn based strategy games, which have almost no graphics at all, and the only graphics they have are still images. however, a like looking a nice shiny things as much as the next guy.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

quote:

---

Originally posted by zookey:
ignored the game when I heard about the musician thing---if you are even hinting at a statement that all rocker s are satanic then that is almost Christian Jihad to me--

---

Ah, well I do see your point there and agree with it

[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited April 07, 2007).]

bennythebear,
Shiny is good, texures would be nice too.

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angel:
zookey,
Which file are you talking about exactly. And if what you're saying turns into a fact, we may need to start a boycot of all LB. Bloody ignorance I can't abide by. I'd be like this, "Christian rock is evil? You can point that right at your contemporary pop and dam yourself." That's just lame.

bennythebear,
Shiny is good, texures would be nice too.

---

The one that HanClinto posted--the audio sermon---right click on it and click 'save as'---it is on his post in this thread as a link and it is easier to download it than wait for it to load.

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a little harsh, sure, but I had to meet Laz's expectations.
Either way, it was a terrible game.

terrible concepts. // you guys covered this one

terrible programming. // when a game crashes because you're not connected to the internet... bad design.

terrible graphics. // not only were the graphics sub-standard, they required above standard processing. my computer could run Guild Wars full graphics, but not Left Behind. odd, isn't it?

terrible gameplay. // the amount I was able to stomach was mind-numbing.

kinda sad how much money they blew on this. Games like Eternal War and Axys Adventures had a incredibly smaller budget and passed them up in gaming quality. also kinda sad how much money they got out of this.

Gotta say, Nightmares has a lot of work to do to cover up that embarrassment.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

The gameplay of Left Behind never entertained me enough to play the demo more than 30 mins. If the debate is whether or not the people behind the game intentionally meant for the game to be received this way or not, no one can judge that.

The amount of wisdom put into the game as to how people will receive it and it's message, that is questionable.

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the game freezes if the firewall blocks the game.
provides no way to actually let you get the pop up window to open it up. I had to restart the game each time it loaded.
once I found it out... I reached the next problem.
the game itself.

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"The generation of random numbers is too important to leave to chance."
Soterion Studios

EDIT: I'm talking about Left Behind hehe... all the indie games rock!! hehe

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Junior Programmer www.auran.com
Quality Assurance Lead www.rebelplanetcreations.com

[This message has been edited by dartsman (edited April 08, 2007).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by ArchAngel:
actually, no, I'm sorry.

the game freezes if the firewall blocks the game.
provides no way to actually let you get the pop up window to open it up. I had to restart the game each time it loaded.
once I found it out... I reached the next problem.
the game itself.

---

dang that is uber crappy---Dartsman: I could have sworn it was in the multiple of millions, but I may be wrong.

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

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quote:

---

Originally posted by dartsman:
it's ridiculous that it was even made... such a waste of money (does anyone know how much it cost?)

---

Since they're a publicly traded company, here is their latest
10Q (quarterly report) as of Dec. 31, '06.

Does anyone know how to read financial statements? If so, please share your thoughts!

I would love to be able to do a brilliant financial analysis of the company's state, but I'm still trying to teach myself to read & analyze financial statements. This is actually why I got curious the other day and bothered to look them up. All I can tell is that they're still in the hole so far (-$452,432).

I did notice that their revenue from sales (keep in mind that this is only from September - December) was about $1 million. From that, though, they only netted $149,587.

Additional note: as of this morning, their stock (symbol LFBG, traded on www.otcbb.com) is trading around 20 to 24 cents per share.

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it's pronounced "tonics"

[This message has been edited by tonnyx (edited April 09, 2007).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by tonnyx:
Since they're a publicly traded company, here is their latest
10Q (quarterly report) as of Dec. 31, '06.

Does anyone know how to read financial statements? If so, please share your thoughts!

---

I understand it. Here are the highlights from 2006:

Total Revenue 1,006,321
Cost of Goods 856,734
Gross Profit 149,587
Research and Development: 937,915
General and Administrative 20,825,182
Total Operating Expense: 21,763,097
Net Loss 21,609,866

Basically, they spent 21 million dollars, they sold 1 million dollars worth of product, at a cost of 850,000 dollars to themselves. Ironically, they spent less than 1 million dollars actually developing the game, and about $21 million in administrative and general costs. The game got low reviews, didn't sell well, they lost oodles of cash. The stock was as high as $7 per share, but its now about 20 cents per share. It was a failure of epic proportions. No offense to the Left Behind Games, but I don't know how the industry veterans that were involved could have allowed things to get this out of hand. $1 million for R & D and $20 million for other expenses? No wonder the game tanked so hard. I've heard the LBG guys talk at CGDC a couple times, and I have always disagreed with their approach to the games market. They talked a lot about raising money. Well, the people who invested are the ones who got burned, bad. The focus was on business on not making a particularly fun game. A lesson hard learned, I suppose. We are supposed to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves, and I don't see that LBG games was either.

"Many of these general and administrative expenses were non-cash charges since we paid many of our consultants in shares of our common stock rather than in cash."

Well, the joke's on the consultants as that stock is nearly worthless now.

"our accumulated deficit at December 31, 2006 totaled $31,157,019."

Ouch.

"We currently are not a party to any material legal proceedings."

I would consider them lucky.

They were too big business-like about this, expecting huge returns to cover the gigantic expenses. How do you lose $31 million making a mediocre game? The total PC game market is less than $ 1 billion per year, these days, and shrinking. Unless you are making Madden '08, or Everquest 3, I don't know how you expect to gross $31 million on a single product.

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+---------+
|steveth45|
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"Well, the joke's on the consultants as that stock is nearly worthless now."
I think they probably still made out pretty well with over $3 million in stock paid for advice, looking at performance of the product, which was probably worth significantly less than the $100,000 that is now. You'd think at least one consultant would ask why the janitor needs to have 3 secretaries and a private jet(I can't think of anyother way they spent 30 times as much on administration then on development).

Good thing the books are selling well.

[This message has been edited by Cohort X (edited April 09, 2007).]

We should write up a letter from the 'Concerned Christian Coders Network Members', asking them what happened, and why they totally screwed up also where and what did they blew all their money on?? hehe... ooh... and a link to this thread

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Junior Programmer www.auran.com
Quality Assurance Lead www.rebelplanetcreations.com

[This message has been edited by dartsman (edited April 09, 2007).]

You write it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by zookey:
Well, I went to CGDC 2003 (when I was still with Two Guys Software now known as XrucifiX) they had their announcement presentation there---and it just seemed to me back then that they were taking somewhat of an EA approach--get on board with a popular license, make a lack-luster game and let the license do the selling for you. Ironically, a lot of their board of advisors members were ex EA people.

---

lol, I think even EA could've made a better game. At least they would try to graphically wow people, if they cared enough about the product.

[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited April 09, 2007).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by dartsman:
Can we get Left Behind audited?

---

Their statement will have to be audited, at some point. I believe all publicly traded companies are required to hire an auditing firm for their financial statements. Requirements for this have become even tighter since the Sarbanes-Oxley Act was signed into law.

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it's pronounced "tonics"

quote:

---

Originally posted by LAVA:
lol, I think even EA could've made a better game. At least they would try to graphically wow people, if they cared enough about the product.

[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited April 09, 2007).]

---

Sad part is you are right, LOL if they wanted to be the 'Christian EA' that is like having the highest goals and lowest goals all at the same time LOL!

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I have actually disagreed with most of the pep talk and advice given at the business talks at CGDC by all parties for the last 3 years. The whole idea that Christians are going to take the video game industry by storm is ridiculous.

On the other hand, there are the Christians who are a little more business savvy, know how to keep expenses down and can follow a well-worn formula for success. One such company is Digital Praise. I don't much care for their approach to games, either. Last year, one of them gave a talk about how to be successful making Christian games (Bill Bean to be precise). He said to get some well loved Christian-themed IP, like Veggie Tales, for example, get the rights to make a game and then sell it in Christian book stores, and then eventually in a larger market. Well, that's nice and all, but what is the end result? Christian entertainment, or, entertaining Christians, or, more precisely, targeting the "Christian audience." That was also the theme of the talk, "targeting Christians".

I think I began to understand more of how Jesus felt when he went to the temple, and found people buying and selling and full of greed, taking advantage of fellow believers. Jesus fashioned a whip out of cords and drove them out of the temple, with violence. As far as I can tell, its the only time he used physical violence against people, when people were using religion for personal monetary gain. It's one of the reasons that I've been somewhat alienated by the CGDC, after the ICGDA (International Christian Game Developers Association), the association that runs the conference, became ACE, the Association of Christian Entertainment.

There is a problem that we all realize. The problem is that the video game industry is becoming more and more influential, yet games are trashier than ever. They objectify women and appeal to the basest instincts in men. They are full of exploitative violence and brutality, self indulgence without consequence. The reason that video games are this way is because Christians have avoided the industry. About half of the folks in the US are Christians, and I would estimate that maybe 5 or 10 percent of the people making video games in the US are Christians. I don't know why it is this way, but you can see the fruit of this in the games that are produced.

Now making "Christian games" on the sidelines and selling those to Christians is not going to change the state of the industry, or the impact it has on young people. What if the normal, secular game studios had a decent number of Christians working for them? Would they be able to create the same filth? I don't think so. Too many people would object. Did Jesus change the world by leading a violent political overthrow of human governments? No. Did he tell his followers to go live in a ghetto, or a Christian cultural bubble? No. He told us to go out into the world and preach the gospel there. Games are neither "Christian" nor do they preach the gospel. People are Christian, and people preach the gospel. We have to go out into the world, not make games to do our work for us. It won't work anyways. If we took all the Christians who are excited about making games and sent them out to get jobs, be excellent, and influential in the video game industry, then we would see change.

Would a "Christian" game company hire a non-Christian game designer? Not likely. Would a secular game company hire a Christian? Of course, all they care about is whether you have the skill. Why do we willfully separate ourselves from the world when Jesus told us to go into the world?

Here is a statistic, over half of the employed game programmers have zero to two years experience. There is an incredibly high burnout rate in the game industry. In other words, if you go and start working in the industry, after only a few years, you are influential. With a few shipped titles and a few years experience, you can be a lead developer or game designer, calling the shots, molding the industry. It sounds crazy, but its true. There is always a shortage of experienced game developers, because people don't have the intestinal fortitude to stick with it for very long. Look at the job listings on gamedev.net. Half or more are for "senior" positions. These companies have no trouble hiring new people, but it is always a challenge keeping people or finding people with experience. I think its time some Christians stepped up to the plate and changed this industry from the inside.

-or- we could do this (the primary goals of ACE from gameace.org):

* Promote a sense of community within the Christian entertainment industry
* Promote the growth of the Christian entertainment industry all over the world
* Represent the interests of ACE members
* Retain talent that exists in our industry
* Attract new talent into our industry
* Attract capital and publishers

Our industry, our industry, our industry. "Our industry" is represented to the world by a dramatic failure known as Left Behind Games. ACE has done nothing to help the state of the video game industry. Go to the page and click on "news" which takes you to a lame press release from a year ago. Here's a quote from the article, "Like Christian music, we're not stopping until there is a whole section in the mass retail stores dedicated to Christian gaming." Christian music has its section in stores, but have they changed the music industry or even had an effect on culture? No. Sure, you can flip the radio over to a Christian station and here bad ripoffs of secular tunes, but that's just another Christian ghetto that doesn't change the world. Why would we want to emulate that with games?

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+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

quote:

---

Originally posted by steveth45:
That's called "burn", the amount of money it takes to keep a company in operation. That's why the bubble burst in the 90's, because companies spent to much money on overhead without letting things grow naturally and slowly.....

---

Took a lot of cajones to post that man--and I applaud it! I think you hit it dead on, the only thing I would slightly disagree with is that all secular studios are putting out crap--I think games that are TOO (emphasis on Too--violence in of itself is a storytelling tool and isn't bad when not in execess) violent or objectify women are actually in the minority--there are more games that have a sense of balance---but I think your post was well thought out and well written---great job dude!!

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[This message has been edited by zookey (edited April 20, 2007).]

So taking that view let's look at games. I play them and I've led guilds. In my guilds I don't allow cussing and abusive actions. People grew to have a great respect for me, and in turn were more willing to accept that I was Christian. In doing that, they accepted that Christians can be a lot of fun to be around. If a Christian can be fun to be around, than it may be a lot of fun to be a Christian.

Shoot games like LB down, that's all well and good. I still say we need more games out that promote cleaner living as oposed to the "If it feels good," thing. We need games that are like Zelda but don't promot theft. Undercover cop games that don't promot you finding every whore you can to get into bed with. Such things don't add fun to the game, their just there because the game maker is despritly trying to look more gritty.

I think it's funny that the military is working on more none-leathal ways to deal with people, but games are promoting more and more leathal ways to deal with people. Aside from realistic games, some of the greatist games of all time had more puzzle ellements to them. Tetris, Pikemen, Zelda, Mario; there are so many with puzzles to them. Anything of that nature could easly be polished, put a new twist to, and given a moral backing to actions.

I think I'm ranting! Weee! I've never ranted before I don't think. I typed untill I ran out of things to say. The Christian gaming industry (if you want to call it that) needs to grow up. If you're going to hit the main stream market, you can't be making games that look like they are for adults and play like they are for five year olds.

I wish I knew how to program. Oh well, I have a novel to work on that follows what all I just said. It's from a Christian world view, but it is for people that really read novels.

P.S. Sorry about the rant, normaly I delete these after typing, but for once I would like to do the oposit.

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

I completely believe in moral games, I think making moral games takes the principles of the Bible and not just making "Moses 3D" and trying to make a game that retells the Bible, but when they need to fill in the gaps they use something other than God.

I also on the other hand disagree (but not with you specfically) with the whole clone approach. Now I don't know if you weren't talking about making a clean Zelda clone (which some of the Zelda games I have a problem with myself, not on the theft issue, but the fact that in some of the later ones you have to go into temples and dealing with other non-Christian spiritual issues).

But I see alot of times being made a "Christian Zelda" or a "Christian DOOM", in other words Christian alternatives, but those kind of games I think only Christians will play. For 2 reasons:

A. The games are often times lesser in quality than the game it's cloning.
B. The issues people resolved in the clones are issues secular people don't consider an issue.

I am sure secular people think "hey the original is better and I don't have a problem with what they have a problem with, why not just play the orginal?".

So I think if Christian games created a comepletely new genre or game, in other words it wasn't pigging-back riding on the world. Christian games would have more credibility if we gave people something new not just cleaned up versions of their games.

Also, I think we should try to "influence" the world into cleaner games. These secular game developers make games that are that way because they are making them money, why do you think Batman and Robin moved away from the campy, goody-2 shoes duo from the TV shows to darker storylines? It didn't sell. If Christian games were better than secular games in both quality and morals game developers would be attracted to it, hypothetically.

[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited April 11, 2007).]

quote:

---

Gotta say, Nightmares has a lot of work to do to cover up that embarrassment.

---

Not our responsibility to clean up any mess but our own.

I'm totally with you about the problems with Left Behind. I think there's some mileage in the principle of an RPG with a Christian world view (the emphasis of my article on Point and Click adventure games is more a reflection of my own personal interests, rather than anything). HOWEVER, I feel quite strongly that there is a flaw with the kind of game you suggested, Angel, about "good examples of life styles", and that is this: what you end up with is a game that is about moralising and Works Religion - by itself, it teaches nothing of the message of salvation by grace through Jesus Christ, but instead promotes the distasteful Ned Flanders type of "Christian" that puts off so many people by their perceived hypocrisy.

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http://www.geero.net/

[This message has been edited by andygeers (edited April 10, 2007).]

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a good gameplay is a right combination between performance and features.

Then I'm not fully into the attaching new people to Christ with games. Some games are simply ment to entertain. What's a good example here... hmm. Let's take Big Idea. A lot of their stuff is entertainment, not preaching, and it's good entertainment. What's wrong with creating a clean entertainment?

God created monkeys that sniff their own butts and swing poo at people. That's entertaining! I'm laughing now typing this. My core argument here is that we need games that show Christians have life to them. I'm in daddy mode these days, and I'd like to see a clean platformer my girls can play. Maybe something that quots biblical teachings without giving the vers as well.

When you meet someone that spends a lot of time in the Bible, they often qout it in their normal speech without saying the scripture. Let's take the game Harvest Moon or whatever it is. When you finaly have a great crop and sell it, the character you sell it to could say "You reep what you soe don't you?" with a big smile.

There is so much that could be done these days, I think there just needs to be some creative spirit driven minds behind it.

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

Exibbit A: http://ps2.ign.com/articles/665/665366p1.html

That's just sad. I need some co-co now, thinking about all this.

------------------
A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

quote:

---

Originally posted by steveth45:
That's called "burn", the amount of money it takes to keep a company in operation. That's why the bubble burst in the 90's, because companies spent to much money on overhead without letting things grow naturally and slowly.

I have actually disagreed with most of the pep talk and advice given at the business talks at CGDC by all parties for the last 3 years. The whole idea that Christians are going to take the video game industry by storm is ridiculous.

On the other hand, there are the Christians who are a little more business savvy, know how to keep expenses down and can follow a well-worn formula for success. One such company is Digital Praise. I don't much care for their approach to games, either. Last year, one of them gave a talk about how to be successful making Christian games (Bill Bean to be precise). He said to get some well loved Christian-themed IP, like Veggie Tales, for example, get the rights to make a game and then sell it in Christian book stores, and then eventually in a larger market. Well, that's nice and all, but what is the end result? Christian entertainment, or, entertaining Christians, or, more precisely, targeting the "Christian audience." That was also the theme of the talk, "targeting Christians".

I think I began to understand more of how Jesus felt when he went to the temple, and found people buying and selling and full of greed, taking advantage of fellow believers. Jesus fashioned a whip out of cords and drove them out of the temple, with violence. As far as I can tell, its the only time he used physical violence against people, when people were using religion for personal monetary gain. It's one of the reasons that I've been somewhat alienated by the CGDC, after the ICGDA (International Christian Game Developers Association), the association that runs the conference, became ACE, the Association of Christian Entertainment.

There is a problem that we all realize. The problem is that the video game industry is becoming more and more influential, yet games are trashier than ever. They objectify women and appeal to the basest instincts in men. They are full of exploitative violence and brutality, self indulgence without consequence. The reason that video games are this way is because Christians have avoided the industry. About half of the folks in the US are Christians, and I would estimate that maybe 5 or 10 percent of the people making video games in the US are Christians. I don't know why it is this way, but you can see the fruit of this in the games that are produced.

Now making "Christian games" on the sidelines and selling those to Christians is not going to change the state of the industry, or the impact it has on young people. What if the normal, secular game studios had a decent number of Christians working for them? Would they be able to create the same filth? I don't think so. Too many people would object. Did Jesus change the world by leading a violent political overthrow of human governments? No. Did he tell his followers to go live in a ghetto, or a Christian cultural bubble? No. He told us to go out into the world and preach the gospel there. Games are neither "Christian" nor do they preach the gospel. People are Christian, and people preach the gospel. We have to go out into the world, not make games to do our work for us. It won't work anyways. If we took all the Christians who are excited about making games and sent them out to get jobs, be excellent, and influential in the video game industry, then we would see change.

Would a "Christian" game company hire a non-Christian game designer? Not likely. Would a secular game company hire a Christian? Of course, all they care about is whether you have the skill. Why do we willfully separate ourselves from the world when Jesus told us to go into the world?

Here is a statistic, over half of the employed game programmers have zero to two years experience. There is an incredibly high burnout rate in the game industry. In other words, if you go and start working in the industry, after only a few years, you are influential. With a few shipped titles and a few years experience, you can be a lead developer or game designer, calling the shots, molding the industry. It sounds crazy, but its true. There is always a shortage of experienced game developers, because people don't have the intestinal fortitude to stick with it for very long. Look at the job listings on gamedev.net. Half or more are for "senior" positions. These companies have no trouble hiring new people, but it is always a challenge keeping people or finding people with experience. I think its time some Christians stepped up to the plate and changed this industry from the inside.

-or- we could do this (the primary goals of ACE from gameace.org):

* Promote a sense of community within the Christian entertainment industry
* Promote the growth of the Christian entertainment industry all over the world
* Represent the interests of ACE members
* Retain talent that exists in our industry
* Attract new talent into our industry
* Attract capital and publishers

Our industry, our industry, our industry. "Our industry" is represented to the world by a dramatic failure known as Left Behind Games. ACE has done nothing to help the state of the video game industry. Go to the page and click on "news" which takes you to a lame press release from a year ago. Here's a quote from the article, "Like Christian music, we're not stopping until there is a whole section in the mass retail stores dedicated to Christian gaming." Christian music has its section in stores, but have they changed the music industry or even had an effect on culture? No. Sure, you can flip the radio over to a Christian station and here bad ripoffs of secular tunes, but that's just another Christian ghetto that doesn't change the world. Why would we want to emulate that with games?

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i agree. i would rather influence a group of lost people(be light to them), than hang out with and entertain Christians. i think the problem is people trying to make money off of Christ, and not wanting to get out of their comfort zones.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

I hope you're not saying I want to make cash off Christ.

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

quote:

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Originally posted by Calin:
I'm on the same line with steveth45 although I do believe explicit Christian games have a place and are welcome (it's same as with music)

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|steveth45|
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quote:

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Originally posted by Angel:
My last post was so upbeat, I need something downbeat. The game "The Bible Game" was a mockery of the Bible. Come on, running from the lions as an example of Danial in the Lion's Den?

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Some PR lady from the company that made or published this game was at CGDC a year and a half ago. You guessed it, she talked about the business aspect of making Christian games. "Our industry" has a long history of having "Christian" games not made by Christians.

Remember those Wisdom Tree games, like Bible Adventures and all that:
'In 1990, someone at Color Dreams had made the suggestion to make bible games. Although many of the programmers took the idea as a joke, Roger Deforest explained that "it was a concept that had never been explored in video games before...scenarios from the Bible turned into challenging and educational video games. It was quite revolutionary in that aspect. I remember when the owner presented us with the idea of making religious games. He was so excited with his idea. And he convinced us it’d be BIG."'

The "Christian games" branch of Color Dreams became Wisdom Tree, and they made a decent collection of embarrassingly bad games. Remember, this kind of hype about this new "Christian games industry" has been around for decades.

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|steveth45|
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quote:

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Originally posted by Angel:
I never said clone the game...

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Yeah sorry about that, I forgot to correct that, I meant to say "now I know you *didn't* say clone"

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Originally posted by Angel:
There is one orginal per year if we're lucky. Wolfinstine, Mario, Pac-man, Chopper Rescue, we've been cloneing them for years. There isn't anything wrong with putting our own twist on it.

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Well even Mario and Wolf3D didn't start genres (before Mario was Space Panic, and there was Catacombs 3D before Wolf3D and even more primitive first person shooters than that), but they made them the polished standard they are today, while giving us something new. That's what I don't see with Christian games, gameplay wise, they never bring something new to the table in terms of gameplay, that's why I didn't just mention making a new genre.

About a "twist" in Christian games, most of the times I've seen in Christian games but only in style. So far in both concepts and released games I've never seen some new way to play a game.

[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited April 11, 2007).]

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .

quote:

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that Mack would rather have the next installment of Eternal War sitting next to Quake 4 on a store shelf, not next to some Veggie Tales game in the "Christian-safe zone".

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It would look rather odd. For pure customer attention grabbing it’d work well however (big ‘ol white display with a big ‘ol disco colour changing cross, maybe a Moses mascot or something), but you’d need a budget like Microsofts that they have for their ‘Games for Windows’ displays. I don’t see that happening anytime soon.

And I don't want to be beside Quake 4, I don't want to hit the bargain bin that quickly.

I do like Quake 4 mp however, DM/CTF FTW.

Christian-safe zone, heh, I can visualize it now. Corner of the store, white walls (rest of the store walls are like brown or something), taped out area on the floor, silk curtain dividing the area, elevator music playing when walking through the division. A voice announces "Welcome to the Super Cool Christian Fun Game Zone!" when you part the curtain.

FYI I've been talking to Tim who's been working hard on getting more Christian book stores to support developers. He's been having a horrible time with many stores just not interested anymore. His favorite quote I believe was "we tried that (games) 10 years ago and it didn't work out well". Keep him in your thoughts and prayers as it's frustrating for him and the developers he's trying to support.

Christian-centric outlets just aren't going to work for us developers. It's either digital distribution or getting into every store in the country and getting lots of ad money. We’re working on something to help, but I won’t get into it until much later. I think what we need most out of the community is high quality titles that debunk the myth that all Christian games suck.

quote:

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The "Christian games" branch of Color Dreams became Wisdom Tree, and they made a decent collection of embarrassingly bad games.

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quote:

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i think the problem is people trying to make money off of Christ

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and EVERYONE BUY AXYS ALREADY - www.rebelplanetcreations.com EVEN IF YOU’VE BEEN GIVEN A COPY BY DAVID, BUY ONE!

As Mack said, there's alot of trouble selling Christian video games, and from what I can tell, and my view is very limited, is that an awesome AAA Christian video game that has cutting edge gameplay and graphics hasn't been made yet.

What does it require to make that? Alot of money. How do you get alot of money? Be successful, work lots and lots, make games that will sell and create a bountiful well of money so you can hire all these awesome artists and make a wicked game. Game companies have made really expensive and awesome titles, like Beyond Good and Evil, and these games haven't turned a profit. It's hard enough to survive in the game development land alone, but trying to do it with Christian video games?

God is doing something, he's doing something with the Macks, Patrickses, Jons, Scott Wongs, Peter Churnesses, Jeffs, Lavas, Clints, Tims, Charlies, Brandons, Sparklings and everyone else and all the awesome CCN peeps. Whatever the industry is meant to be in the future, you're in the middle of it right now, it's growing, or it's dying, either way there's no way to tell what is going to happen. Alot of us are working 2nd jobs, hoping that we'll someday break through with what we are doing, we take risks, alot is riding on huge decisions, people have personal lives, issues get in the way, and there's this one goal of making Christian games. It's hard and it's tough. It seems to be a long long road of perseverance. There is not one Christian game developer that I know of that is not struggling to a large extent. The people on Ace are there because they believe in something, the people involved with CGDC are doing it because they believe in something, they've been trying for so long to achieve something, and it's just a long hard road. And it has seemed to have been this way for a while, and we don't know what is going to happen.

People are doing this and are involved in this because God is calling them to. People have given so much to the Christian gaming industry and have walked away with hardly anything, they have done what they belived in and were passionate about and are waiting and hoping that the day comes when we get a breakthrough and see something come to the people that really deserve it. I don't know everyone that is involved on a personal level, but Tim Emmerich, if you can even get to comprehend a little of what he has done for the Christian gaming industry over the last many years, it brings tears to my eyes, he is one of many people that deserve so much more. Mack is one of the most amazing people I know, he has struggled through alot and deserves so much good, I can't wait for the day God really opens blessing upon his life (although he would say he is very blessed, I want to see him get what I believe he deserves).

SO LIKE MACK SAID GO AND BUY AXYS:

www.rebelplanetcreations.com

Gameplay, a guy finished it in 34 hours, another accumulated 60 hours + gameplay time, I can finish the game in 6 hours rushing it.

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A new world awaits you at www.vailion.com .