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Hate crimes only againt christians – warsong




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For a Christian nation it sure is deluded on what is fair. This article just indicates one example of countless many other issues that happen which many Christians distort fairness to unfairness. Maybe itís a protestant thing so I don't get it, lol but if itís not a protestant thing then what is it a Jewish thing or atheist thing? Well protestants run the show.

Don't mind me for poking the majority of the so called Christians in the US. It is just strange how the majority of the Protestants give the power to others that want to hurt them and others. Maybe Christians are afraid to pick a side and say the truth which is anti Christian. It's like a saying goes with friends (Christians) like that who needs enemyís lol.
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"New York: Steal the Baby Jesus, that's OK, Kick the Menorah Go to Jail

NEW YORK, January 9, 2007 (LifeSiteNews.com) - On Sunday, the New York Times ran a story about two 20-year-olds, and an 18-year-old, who were arrested for stealing statues of baby Jesus from nativity scenes over the past two years. They hit the New York-suburban communities of Suffern and Haverstraw several times in 2005 and 2006. The police said they will not charge them with committing hate crimes; each is being charged with 14 counts of petty larceny.

Also on Sunday, WNBC.com reported that a 20-year-old was arrested for kicking a menorah in the New York suburban community of St. James. He is being charged with a hate crime and could face seven years in prison. He is being charged with a felony.

Catholic League president Bill Donohue commented saying, "This is so interesting. The reason the menorah is allowed in New York City public schools is because the authorities have branded it a secular symbol, and the reason the crŤche is barred is because the same authorities have branded it a religious symbol. Yet when a 20-year-old man vandalizes a menorah outside New York he is charged with a hate crime and may spend seven years behind bars for his felony, while three others of the same age who vandalize several crŤches outside New York-over a two-year period-are given a slap on the wrist."

Donohue concluded, "We have long maintained that hate-crime laws evince a bias of their own. This proves it.""
http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/jan/07010902.html
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And as the other post pointed out that's a fake symbol and anti Christian in its theme so it would be a contradiction to have both represented by a protestant Government so maybe they made the right choice to get ride of Christian things since it sure doesn't act Christian.

You also have the 10 protestant churches in Alabama being burned by 3 19year old Jewish kids. The Jewish leaders say they were just having fun and say that the Protestants instigated it by trying to convert Jews and say they got what they deserve in a way. They say the kinds were drunk but they don't drink. What if Mel Gibson did that? lol what if they acted like Mel? Obviously a double standard. The protestants don't go up in an uproar and don't do much about it since they like to compromise a lot. No backbone doesn't help Christianity but dilutes it the more liberal it acts. The kids will not be punished it seems. Some people would rather target the messenger than the message, or not deal or look at the issue, but I guess that's what it means to have a liberal belief.

If it was the other way around like vandalizing of a Synagogue they blame Christians when in fact other Jewish faction defile it since they are against Israel because secularists made it and not religious Jews which is why many of the policies out of Israel are anti Jewish and anti Christian which many protestant in the US mainly support, but not outside of the US as much by other Christians. Again it must be a protestant thing since they throw out Christís words that everyone is equal and replace it with chosen people that go against them. Even "Christians Orthodox Jews" think protestants might be more dangerous than Muslims in non violent forms since they give the power to people that are against Christians. Maybe He has a point well he is a Christian Jew do maybe he is more chosen if there is such a thing. lol

You also hear a lot of Jewish Synagogues being vandalized which some were spotted as hoaxes. Crying Wolf: Hate Crime Hoaxes in America. Even one Jewish professor Kerri Dunn vandalizing her own car. While the protestant give benefits and promotions and to them. You don't see Christians getting that same treatment even when itís real.
http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47805
People that pull hoaxes should be punished but some oddly enough are not.

You also have the Non protestant churches countries being attacked by Muslims and the worse thing to do is get a protestant country involved since they will always side with the Muslims and help burn down all the churches kind of like what they did in Kosovo. Not just that but many were proud to do that.
Let's not forget how they also let Muslims slaughter over 300,000 Christians in malaria and the Muslims took over, thanks to people like politicians Henry Kissinger which I know some will say he is not Christian but the Christians gave that guy a loot of power and even this president asks for his advice which has done a lot of horrific things around the world.

In the end who runs things?
But there is also another twist to this twisted story. The NY daily news with many other News sources says that Jews run the courts. It would explain why the Guy Michel Milken didn't stay in jail long after stealing millions and considered a good guy after hurting so many people and businesses. I don't blame them they do what they think is right, but I am disappointed in the protestant lack of social structure which attacks Christians for having a backbone.
http://www.nydailynews.com/01-06-2005/news/local/story/268566p-230026c.html
Judges should have no real power and should interpret the law and not be the law.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
Warsong, here you are again,well let's cut to the chase:
first you should read this incase you haven't:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=45
as you see christianity will be hated more than any other nation,or people.

i want you to pay attention to this famous words of the lord:
Matthew 5
37Let your Yes be simply Yes, and your No be simply No; anything more than that comes from the evil one.(I)

38You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.(J)

39But I say to you, Do not resist the evil man [who injures you]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too.

40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your undershirt (tunic), let him have your coat also.

41And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two [miles].
see the world will hate us and even do more than that the world will persecute us and even kill us.but the question is do we follow jesus's words and give the right jaw or hit back?

but i am amazed at you warsong , it's excpected for the world to hate christianity ,but it's surprising to see you hate your fellow christians. we believe in christ, we believe he died for us we believe that he is the way and the only way to the father,we follow every commandment jesus gave us and every one of the 10 commandments.

yet,you jump in and call us haters,while you hate us,you call us pro-homosexuals while you annoint homosexual priests, i think the real enemy of christianity is your kind warsong you keep trying to divide christians instead of uniting us,instead of searching for the truth you search for what disproves or even humiliates other christians,your focus is not on whether christians are hated or not your focus is to disprove our religion.

keep this in mind warsong:
Matthew 9:35 Sky and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

if you are such a devout christian why do you keep searching for weakneses in other christians,why do you mock other christians ?
who are you loyal to warsong your priest or christ?

warsong,correct me if i am wrong but i sense a great hatred and prejudice coming from you toward us(protestants),you blame protestants for every problem you find,you seem to be confused on who is good and who is evil.
GOOD=CHRIST,CHRISTIANS
EVIL=SATAN,SIN
only god can judge you warsong but,you keep attacking and trying to put on hate against christians(which means followers of christ). remember that whoever harms or hates a christian it's as if you harm or hate christ himself.

if you are so convinced that catholicism is right and protestants are wrong
then why do you keep on looking on weaknesses in us?why can't you prove your point by showing us that your religion is the right one?
my guess is you know that it's very hard to prove your arguments using the bible because even though most of your belief is based on the bible,there are many aspects of catholicism that cannot be proved by referencing to the bible,therefore you keep trying to find weaknesses in us because if you don't that means we are right and you are wrong.

not all those who say they are christians are christians,if a man stands up and does something the lord dissaproves of then he is not a christian even if he says he is. and my loyality is for christ first. not my pastor,therefore i denounce all of the people who tresspassed against the lord.

but i won't go further to disprove your religion ,i think the bible does that for me,i know you believe in christ but you don't follow his way you follow your priests way, you are like a train who is on the right track but going the wrong way,sooner or later you will crash.
if you base your point on hatred then you are a hater,i posted this post because as a christian i can't standby and let you say wrong about my belief and let sit by and watch you go the wrong way.

if you ever feel like going the right way there is always the bible.

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Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ




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Typical.
Don't assume. I was talking about the structure.
Pretend you are a lawyer defending the other point.
But do you agree that things are not balanced, and why these rules are one sided?

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
warsong,i am not a lawyer i am a christian,and there is nobody attacking you ,you attacked yourselves when you banned the holy bible from being used by anyone back in the middle ages,lol did you think everyone was just gonna sit around and accept the fact that you make laws in the name of the almighty yet you ban the holy bible he gave to his people, you annoint saints as if you were jesus himself, you excpect people to be saved by confessing to other saints or mary,while jesus in clear words said i am the way and the ONLY way to the father,how come everytime you post your evidence is not of the bible but of what happened in the world or what humans said or did?

yes i agree that things are one sided,one sided towards anti-christianity, not anti catholicism,nobody attacked or persecuted catholics alone,as a matter of fact catholics are the least persecuted because catholics don't try to evangelise sinners you just sit there and insult us the people who try to actually preach the gospel.even i have seen my share of persecution warsong,just today i was browsing this very site in my school's library ,and when the librarian saw that i was browsing this site she treated me like i was a member of the neo-nazi and told me that their computer was to be used for instructional purposes only, while others were browsing game sites ,music sites or even myspacing,my point is we know our share of persecution,the last thing we need is people like you believeng what you believe ,trying to put more hate and persuction upon us.

think of it this way there are two children trying to get people into their father's house ,one of them goes out and invites people while the other gets jealous and says bad things about his brother to people,at the end nobody listened to the first child because people taught of him as a bad person because his brother told them so,and nobody listened to the second child because he was too busy bad mouthing his own brother while he should have invited people to his fathers house. if the second child just invited people his own way ,many people might have come to their father's house.

are you getting it now warsong,you keep trying to divide us while this time is the most critical time for us to unite,not only are you hurting christianity you are also hurting yourself.

you didn't answer a question i posted earlier let me try to rephraise it:

who are you trying to defend and who are you loyal to?
a)christ and christianity
b)catholicism and your personal beliefs
c)yourself

i don't believe your answer would be a,because non of your evidence is based on the bible and the people you attack are the very people you defend. or according to your belief on has to be a catholic inorder to be a christian? the last time i checked to be christian all you have to do is accept christ and accept the fact that he is the way and the only way to the father. i did both,but you accept christ but don't believe he is the only way to the father.

and remember christianity is NOT politics,and christians are not lawyers.
christianity is the opposite of politics and christians are the opposite of lawyers.

i am in no way trying to prove my religion because i don't think it needs any proving,and the only opinion that matters for me as a christian is the lord's opinion.

i'm just trying to correct you not prove myself unlike you.

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Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
warsong,i am not a lawyer i am a christian,and there is nobody attacking you ,you attacked yourselves when you banned the holy bible from being used by anyone back in the middle ages,lol did you think everyone was just gonna sit around and accept the fact that you make laws in the name of the almighty yet you ban the holy bible he gave to his people, you annoint saints as if you were jesus himself, you excpect people to be saved by confessing to other saints or mary,while jesus in clear words said i am the way and the ONLY way to the father,how come everytime you post your evidence is not of the bible but of what happened in the world or what humans said or did?

yes i agree that things are one sided,one sided towards anti-christianity, not anti catholicism,nobody attacked or persecuted catholics alone,as a matter of fact catholics are the least persecuted because catholics don't try to evangelise sinners you just sit there and insult us the people who try to actually preach the gospel.even i have seen my share of persecution warsong,just today i was browsing this very site in my school's library ,and when the librarian saw that i was browsing this site she treated me like i was a member of the neo-nazi and told me that their computer was to be used for instructional purposes only, while others were browsing game sites ,music sites or even myspacing,my point is we know our share of persecution,the last thing we need is people like you believeng what you believe ,trying to put more hate and persuction upon us.

think of it this way there are two children trying to get people into their father's house ,one of them goes out and invites people while the other gets jealous and says bad things about his brother to people,at the end nobody listened to the first child because people taught of him as a bad person because his brother told them so,and nobody listened to the second child because he was too busy bad mouthing his own brother while he should have invited people to his fathers house. if the second child just invited people his own way ,many people might have come to their father's house.

are you getting it now warsong,you keep trying to divide us while this time is the most critical time for us to unite,not only are you hurting christianity you are also hurting yourself.

you didn't answer a question i posted earlier let me try to rephraise it:

who are you trying to defend and who are you loyal to?
a)christ and christianity
b)catholicism and your personal beliefs
c)yourself

i don't believe your answer would be a,because non of your evidence is based on the bible and the people you attack are the very people you defend. or according to your belief on has to be a catholic inorder to be a christian? the last time i checked to be christian all you have to do is accept christ and accept the fact that he is the way and the only way to the father. i did both,but you accept christ but don't believe he is the only way to the father.

and remember christianity is NOT politics,and christians are not lawyers.
christianity is the opposite of politics and christians are the opposite of lawyers.

i am in no way trying to prove my religion because i don't think it needs any proving,and the only opinion that matters for me as a christian is the lord's opinion.

i'm just trying to correct you not prove myself unlike you.

oh and to answer your question things are one sided,they are against protestants and for priests, the last time i checked catholics were marrying homosexuals ,and protestant's were speaking against it in public, if you say you are a catholic you are less likely to be hated by sinners than if you say you are a protestant.

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Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

NetCog

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Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
...why these rules are one sided?

Ultimately because Satan is the current ruler of the world.

As to the rest I'll let Spade run with it except to add: your posts continue to express a gross misunderstanding of the freedom of will and choice given to us by God in the Bible and through the laws of the USA across all aspects of life.

p.s. Your light speech doesn't change the vitriol.




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You keep assuming, and again I have to tell you to not assume. I donít know weather you noticed or not but I have told you many times I am not catholic but as always in one ear out the other just like the rest of the thing I pointed out since you always donít pay attention and misunderstand.

Lawyers can be Christian so can a computer programmer, despite most don't act like it.

You donít get it, itís not about division itís about unification on doing what is Christian. The vast majority of Christians say they are Christian while over Ĺ of them live the lives similar to secularists in every action and push for secular people in power while attacking Christians. I am not saying Protestants or Catholics are automatically bad but the then structure of the religion doesnít bear good fruit in its Christian influence. Muslims are more religions since they praise god more, Indians act more religious since they donít go make or see movies full of immorality which Protestants are the #1 source for secularists to be rich. Protestantism is just the child of Catholicism which has been excommunicated 1000 years ago and as the bible says the apple doesnít fall far from the tree as the bible says.

Only Christ is the head of the church and not people that are delusional that think they talk to god and get messages from God that a disaster will happen which doesnít, or to attack foreign leaders like Pat Robertson. It is amazing how so many leaders of Christianity rip off people and go many unchristian actions as in the US. You have some protestant leaders saying that Greed is good, and you have one that has their Dogís house having air conditioned, or many televangelists smacking people over the head. Christians are being taken advantage of by Christian leaders for unchristian acts. If pointing out unchristian acts is bad then fine. Sure many leaders mean well but for them not to be humble enough is one reason why there is such a division.
Christianity can not be made which many new ones pop up every so often, but it is passed down by authority by Christ, and Christ is the only head of the church. For it not to be just helps bring more problems. Look for your self how Christians acted 50 years ago compared to now, are you saying people are acting more Christian? It is obviously not which there is something wrong with the foundation or many sects.

Well I have to admit some learned some things over a while and some do not. Some cheered the bombing of Christian countries and churched in here, while others see that maybe they were misinformed. Too bad more people donít look at the entire story than believe the news with a boat load of Christians that act like secularists.

As for Satan is the current ruler. Yes but if Christians did what they were supposed to do then it would not happen as fast. Even Satan is the current ruler of most Christian sects since Satan is the ruler of 1/2 truths as well since how can one church says no to a war and another say yes to war, how can one church ask of an assassination of foreign rulers while another says no, how can one religious figure say you need church and another say you donít, marriage is in a church while marriage is in a drive though, how can one says go to church and keep a holy day while another says do what you like, how can one says no to homosexuality while another says yes, how can one say no to prostitutions while another runs it, etc?

And in the end the sects donít take responsibility.
Not about vitriol but fact. If you are going to use an excuse to escape fasts and responsibility then good luck.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
finally warsong you are finally addresing the questions and issues we bring to you, i see a great deal of misunderstanding in you, you seem to thing that people who act against god and say that they are protestants,are recognized by true protestants as chrisitans. well that is not the case warsong as you said christ is the head of the church,not only that christ is the master for every christian,we follow him and only him,as he said his temple is in our hearts not in various places of worship, when a protestant goes to church he is going to a place where he could worship his god together with his fellow christians,administered and organized by a pastor or minister. when a protestant prays he prays to god not his pastor or not ot a tele evangelical person.
quote:

You keep assuming, and again I have to tell you to not assume. I donít know weather you noticed or not but I have told you many times I am not catholic but as always in one ear out the other just like the rest of the thing I pointed out since you always donít pay attention and misunderstand.


Well i didn't know you weren't a christian then what are you?are you a protestant? because if you are then how is it that you are so confused with what is happening in the world? christ told us that many will come in his name and that many false prophets will arise. what's happening is a sign of things to come,we already excpected that. i don't see how finding weakneses in our enemies and blaming it on us is unifying?

quote:

Only Christ is the head of the church and not people that are delusional that think they talk to god and get messages from God that a disaster will happen which doesnít, or to attack foreign leaders like Pat Robertson. It is amazing how so many leaders of Christianity rip off people and go many unchristian actions as in the US. You have some protestant leaders saying that Greed is good, and you have one that has their Dogís house having air conditioned, or many televangelists smacking people over the head. Christians are being taken advantage of by Christian leaders for unchristian acts. If pointing out unchristian acts is bad then fine. Sure many leaders mean well but for them not to be humble enough is one reason why there is such a division.


As i said ,false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing, they are our real enemies ,i don't believe in them,i believe in christ,i was at no point trying to defend low lifes like this ones,as for pointing out unchristian acts nobody said that was wrong as the matter of fact that is encouraged just don't point it at us ,when i say us i mean true believers it is perfectly clear that this people are not christians, if a homosexual calls himself a christian does that mean that he is?the answer is no because he is doing unchristian activities and christians are not to blame for it,the same thing goes if a man who says greed,lust or any other sin is good calls himself a protestant then he doesn't reflect on me because i don't believe what he beliefs.as you say warsong : "Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"

quote:

Lawyers can be Christian so can a computer programmer, despite most don't act like it.


The very act of being a lawyer makes you unchristian,i mean from a lawyers point of view even "gay marriage" is justified ,it is equality isn't it.but christ tells us to follow his law not the law made by man,he also tells us not to judge which politicians and lawyers do,we all know that the law is filled with all kinds of sin you can imagine,think about it what sin does the law not support? it even supports murder if you are a brain dead person in a hospital,or even if you kill someone according to christ you shouldn't be killed. so if you are a lawyer your task is to defend this law which condemns and even mocks at our god.

lol...as for a computer programmer i don't see any sin in c++,java or assembly, if a computer programmer sins then he sins because he is human not because he is a programmer,if a hacker hacks does that make all programmers hackers?incase you haven't noticed the name of this site is christiancoders,are you saying most people here don't act like christians?
as far as i know programming and sin have nothing to do with each other,the next thing you know you will be labling all people who can read as sinners because most people who read are sinners.

quote:

You donít get it, itís not about division itís about unification on doing what is Christian. The vast majority of Christians say they are Christian while over Ĺ of them live the lives similar to secularists in every action and push for secular people in power while attacking Christians.

As i said they are the enemy...

quote:

I am not saying Protestants or Catholics are automatically bad but the then structure of the religion doesnít bear good fruit in its Christian influence. Muslims are more religions since they praise god more, Indians act more religious since they donít go make or see movies full of immorality which Protestants are the #1 source for secularists to be rich. Protestantism is just the child of Catholicism which has been excommunicated 1000 years ago and as the bible says the apple doesnít fall far from the tree as the bible says.

true warsong you are right the apple doesn't fall far from the tree but the thing is our tree is not catholicism,it is the BIBLE when protestantinism was found the bible was outlawed,and if i remember correctly people had to hide their bibles in thier food so that they won't get sent to prison and that happened because the so called head of church pope banned the bible,
as you said warsong christ is the only head of the church,thanks for making my point . protetant is not based on catholic ,protestant is based on christ,i don't know what happened now but for a long time protestants were enemies of catholics,i guess we followed the word of christ and forgave catholics for centuries of persecution.but as i said don't be misled to think that protestants is just another form of catholic,protestant is a completly different religion ,the only thing we have in common is a belief in christ and a great desire to serve the same god,and i don't think that belief is a bad tree.as for comparing us to muslims and indians i know many protestants that are more commited to their religion than any muslim or hindu, catholics excommunicated us because they can't kill or pesecute us anymore,well we didn't want to talk to them in the first place.and warsong
i as a protestant am not following a child of catholicism i am following christ, and if a man says or does something against my beliefs then he is not of my religion, did you know that 94% of americans say they are christians,and that only 26% of them call themselves evangelical christians? i don't think it was the latter percentage that produced the movies you said. you seem to have found what a sin is but you don't know who is a sinner very well you know all who commit a sin are sinners but you don't know that if a person sins and calls himself a christian he is still a sinner,you are not finding weakneses in christianity,you are finding weakneses in false christianity and trying to blame it on christianity,i think that you have actually misled yourself into thinking that you are actually unifing christianity.

quote:

As for Satan is the current ruler. Yes but if Christians did what they were supposed to do then it would not happen as fast. Even Satan is the current ruler of most Christian sects since Satan is the ruler of 1/2 truths as well since how can one church says no to a war and another say yes to war, how can one church ask of an assassination of foreign rulers while another says no, how can one religious figure say you need church and another say you donít, marriage is in a church while marriage is in a drive though, how can one says go to church and keep a holy day while another says do what you like, how can one says no to homosexuality while another says yes, how can one say no to prostitutions while another runs it, etc?

SATAN is the ruler of this world and he army is made of the false christians you just mentioned,they are not christians they are more of satanists, if you here 2 opposite comments from two so called christians then the one that made a comment that is for god against evil and agains sin is the right one the other one is just another soldier for satan trying to fool us by wearing sheeps clothing. and as i said warsong true protestants don't follow the teachings of religious leaders they follow the teachings of jesus christ that is why we are called christ-ians.
and also we are called protestants because we protested the false preaching of catholics not because we are a good child of catholicism.

and warsong you seem to be confused on what our religion is if you have any question just ask :P


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Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

NetCog

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Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
warsong is Eastern (or somesuch) Orthodox

Being a lawyer has nothing to do with being christian or not. Just as being a computer programmer has nothing to do with being a christian or not. It's a job, just like any other. It's what you "do" with the skills God has given you that "count".


It's also not about "doing what is Christian". It's about the focus on Christ, our personal focus on Christ. Warsong, you need to balance (or at least understand the "protestant" focus) the "unification" of the Church with "the ability to eat meat".

What wouldn't "happen as fast"?
The "end of the world"? Only God knows the end and you definately aren't one to say that a person's study or living or lack thereof is something that will hurry up or delay Christ's return.
The breakdown of society? *Shrug* History repeats itself. Christ is in control of it. Satan runs the show. Humanity is caught up in the middle to make a choice.

You continue to lump "Christian leadership". Stop. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Fred Phelps, and another dozen or two visible self-stated Christians (true or not) have the entire spectrum of details which may or may not be similar. Pat is not my "leader". Jerry is not my "leader". Fred is not my "leader". Matter of fact most of the people I know, those visible Christians (and many others) are not their "leaders".

There is no "pope". There is no "diocese". There are no "Bishops". There. is. no. broad. based. human. Protestant. Leadership.

Honestly, and I'm just being "factual" and "logical" here....your comments about and related to the "christian leadership" or even the "secular christians" border on (or are) being as bad as the athiests, gnostics, or pagens I talk to who go all nuclear on "bible thumpers". Stereotypes without understanding.
Do secular christians exist or people who call themselves Christians in order to mislead? Yes. But you are lumping a BUNCH of people in there who don't belong.

Maybe you think "Unity" under some form of human leadership or guidance is necessary. I rather like having differing opinions, it keeps the conversation active and searching.

p.s. the split might be some 700-1000 years between Catholic and Protestants, but the split between Orthodox and Catholic is simply further back in history. Interestingly enough:
1. The two splits were for some similar reasons.
2. Orthodox and Catholics are pretty similar, especially agreeing in ways Catholics and Protestants disagree.

The most recent reference I found: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity
refer to types
and:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism

And enough with the dog house being air condition or similar left-field comments. Who cares?! It's their dog, cat, horse, cow, mule, donkey, chicken, goose, snake, fish, ostrich, goat, pig, pigeon, sparrow, barn swallow, roach, spider, rat, mouse, hamster, gerbil, chipmunk, skink, lizard, iguana, parrot, spider monkey, tiger, lion, liger, or pink elephant. Of all the things to get unhinged about...find something else, please!




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Another news bit. Isnít England protestant? Obviously since the one in charge was King Henry the 8th that divorced his wife killed a few of his wives and tens of thousands of his people. it is amazing how people follow that sect despite the founder of it made Muslims and atheist look Christian. I guess itís a protestant thing to follow tyrants so I donít understand or maybe protestant just like Muslims donít know the violent immoral history of their sect. In England ďTeachers at the Robert Napier School in Gillingham, Kent demanded 13 year-old Samantha Devine remove her chain and tiny crucifix despite allowing Muslim and Sikh pupils to wear symbols of their religion.Ē Also the case about British Airways telling people not to have Christian crosses at work. Lol Well at least they are living up to the protestant sect so Christians should know better.

Did you know that there is segregation of Protestants and Catholics in some countries in Europe and when one goes to the other side place they get physically attacked? Must be a protestant/catholic thing. Here is a simple question who killed more people Muslims or protestant governments in the last 50 years? Lol As for Orthodox countries they get attacked more physically and politically from Protestants countries despite Muslims live next to them. There should be a joke about thisÖ lol What do you call a SOBís best friend? Answer Protestant. Hey thatís a quote from Regan that when asked why the US is friends with terrorist countries and Regan says ďthey may be SOBís but they are our SOBísĒ. I think the older Protestants were better since they would have objected to a lot of modern dat protestant actions, the more time goes by the more division in views, just like a cracked glass how the line goes further away form its origin.
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Spade
Thatís funny

netcog
I was going to give a lengthy reply but in short you notice how people say religion is bad and you have to explain that itís not all religions but non Christian ones. And when you see bad unorthodox actions by Christian sects then itís not acting Christian/Orthodox. Very loose in morals which is why most are liberal.

And to say the devil is to blame for every bad thing is just an escape from the truth of the evil that men do which perpetuates their actions more and blame the devil.

I am not saying the people are bad but the guidance form the sect is not as strong as their faith. But remember even fake Christian sects have been put down by the early church like the Gnostics since they made it only to attack Christianity. Most churches got power because the church was held captive by non Christians, and none of the so called Christians helped. If they need to grow at the disadvantage of others then that is sad, and to bring in people that are against Christian is even worse.

I guess the devil is simpler than God, and people choose the simpler road when it comes to Christianity as well which is why they get the simple devilís actions. As a rabbi said a religion that does less is less. And as the bible says to take the long, hard, narrow road, which the ďwideĒ variety of liberal looseness with ďshortĒ ďeasyĒ effort they give to the religion with no real guidance shows the labor of its fruits.

If Protestants believe they are Christians then good for them, but the track record of the sectís church speaks for itself which many turn a blind eye just like how they turn a blind eye to the Orthodox Church and non orthodox people around the word.

As for the catholic churches split you make it sounds like an even cut when itís far from it. I already posted a big list of distinctions. As for your timeline, itís way off, you wish it was 700 years old, but over exaggeration must be a protestant thing.
=33 Eastern Orthodox (for close to 1000 years no division and fake sects got taken down with politically correctness)
The rest is like what GB Shaw said "The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." In that people put their own cultural traditions in with religion and it contradicts. After this the Catholic and protestant leaders used forceful conversions and go to war to attack other Christians.
=1054 Roman Catholic (wanted to be head of the church but only Christ is) not considered Christian as much so why should its offspringís?
=1517 Lutheran (a lot of his complaints were right but, after that the church went to many pieces and there are countless number of Christian sects with views that contradict the original teachings.)
And the rest break out that wanted their way than Christ way (anti Christian) and also found a profit and power to be gained. Now you have over 10,000 Christian sects as many speculate and more coming out all contradicting each other and all say they are the way. Obviously something went wrong after 1054ad (or as Protestant countries have changed it to 1054 CE since they are very politically and liberal) Christianity is hard but Christ didnít make it that complex for people to look for it since Christ even said he came to establish the churches he made which non orthodox have ransacked, destroyed, stolen, given to Muslims, defiled, murdered countless priests, and many cheer for it. I guess itís a protestant/Catholic thing so I donít understand. Every crazy believe can be found in Christian sects, which some even say their church was before Christís church. Lol

So 510 years old and not founded by Christ and the apostles. Itís like you making your own government out of your home. Which is why protestant churches are considered more like Christian communities and not officially churches, and I guess some know it and take the wedding outside to drive though wedding, or at a park, or at a silly costume party event.

So 2000 years of united Orthodox know how about Christianity including Christ and the apostles as the founding members VS. 500 years of divided protestant assumed views of Christianity. I guess Protestants like to gamble; maybe itís a Christian thing to gamble?

The more people deny it the more they put fuel to the fire, and more problems like the original example. If you honestly think Christ will say itís ok to have this many churches which contradict there this is not a small thing but a big slap to Christís face which Christ warned about.

------------
On a side noteÖYou canít get all your facts from Wikipedia since itís not structured to be facts but imputes opinions and biasness as they even stated which they are not even Christian based, but against Christian and the cofounder has a porno site. It has a lot of heavy editing so use *** as a guide to ďhelpĒ you for answers since its not 100% reliable. But if you disagree then again it must be a protestant thing.
But a light quote from it ďIn the 15th century the invention of the printing press made it easier for more people to read and study the Bible. This led many thinkers over the years to come up with new ideas and to break away from the Pope and his church. They started the Protestant or Reformed churches. Some Catholics and Orthodox do not consider Protestants to be fully Christian. The most important Protestant leaders were Martin Luther and John Calvin. Later some of these groups disagreed amongst themselves, so that these denominations split again into smaller groups.Ē
As you see itís my Christian believe and logical believe to say I donít think the rest are Christians. Even Christ says you will know them by their actions.

But I guess you will nit pick and I have to quote again some things. Donít bother replying since I will just quote again the things you ignore. If you want to read up then go read in the religion forum about orthodox if you want to jump to that issue.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
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spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
what's funny warsong?

well anyways:

Matthew 10:

21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


that was just to point out that we will be hated whether we like it or not and if you are not being hated that means there is something wrong with your belief.

as for killings weren't those orthodox priests blessing milosevic's soldiers in the bosnia/serbia genocide before they go off to kill all muslims they see whether they find a man or a child? talk about killing,if you are saying that i am responsible for the immorality , sin and genocide of others then that means you are responsible for the 8000+ peoples life that were lost in the genocide i just mentioned.i could google up every massacre and killings made by orthodox's but how different would i be from you.

and what is really amazing is this phrase:

quote:

Here is a simple question who killed more people Muslims or protestant governments in the last 50 years?

warsong you should really start reading the bible, it doesn't matter how many people you kill if you kill then you are a killer,if you murder then you are a murderer, are you saying that there has not been an orthodox in history who killed people?are you saying that orhodox's are righteous?if so then what are you doing on earth?

if you ask me you are behaving like a hypocrite,name me one thing that only a protestant did that an orhodox didn't?

if your religion is the right religion or if your religion is the right way then how come you are so few? how come i don't see orthodox's evangelizing people and converting them? the very fact that you never get persecuted by anyone or the fact that you don't preach or share your belief says a lot about your religion.

if you think that your religion is right and if we follow your religion that we will not go to hell then how come you don't talk about your religion ?if you know so much about Christianity how come you didn't mention even one reference of the bible in your argument?
the basis in your argument is actions made by people who do the exact opposite of what the bible or our religion tells us to do. if your belief is so right then prove it!!don't try disprove our religion by the actions of people who i don't accept as the followers of Christianity,why don't you base your argument on your beliefs or religion?

quote:

Lol As for Orthodox countries they get attacked more physically and politically from Protestants countries despite Muslims live next to them. There should be a joke about thisÖ lol What do you call a SOBís best friend? Answer Protestant. Hey thatís a quote from Regan that when asked why the US is friends with terrorist countries and Regan says ďthey may be SOBís but they are our SOBísĒ. I think the older Protestants were better since they would have objected to a lot of modern dat protestant actions, the more time goes by the more division in views, just like a cracked glass how the line goes further away form its origin.


Warsong tell me you are just kidding?did you just quote a racist ,killer's comment against protestants? i can say many jokes about orhodox's too but that is just being immature, are you saying that we are sob's ?

as for divisioin in views that is because they were not real Christians in the first place.and as you said the head of the Church is Christ,and we protestants follow Christ not regan not bush not anybody else, a nation is called Christian because the people identify themselves as Christians it doesn't mean all the people are saved or that they are righteous ,if a nation acts it acts based on it laws, and to remind you the united states follows a constitution made by people not the laws of the bible,ofcourse the constitution is based on the bible but many laws are clearly against the teachings of the bible and it certainly is not headed by a pastor. Church and state are separated here!! therefore the actions of a state that has Church and state separated does not reflect on the followers of the Church if the Church was in charge of the gov't we wouldn't had had as many wars and gay marriage wouldn't be legal.

quote:

And to say the devil is to blame for every bad thing is just an escape from the truth of the evil that men do which perpetuates their actions more and blame the devil.


who said the devil is to blame for every bad thing?the devil tempt's us to do bad things and if we let him we are sinners, the devil gives us all the evil tools we need to do our evil doings tough.

quote:

As you see itís my Christian believe and logical believe to say I donít think the rest are Christians. Even Christ says you will know them by their actions.


Well only Christ gets to say whether you are a Christian or not, if they are false preachers you will know them by their actions and you should avoid them most of the people you talk about are false preachers,and there are some false orhodox preachers too,or are all who say the are orthodox righteous?

you said don't bother to reply, well i am sorry but i have to defend my faith i can't just let you ridicule my faith.

stop judging people you don't even know,just in this thread i think you judged most believers of Christianity muslims and hindus,who gave you that right?!!!!!!!

Matthew 7:1
[ Judging Others ] "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Matthew 7:2
For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

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Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ




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Amazing lol you seriously are hilarious.
Nice example of politically correct liberal protestant view which mirrors the original examples. If you like Muslims killing Serbs so much then be Muslims.
But if not then...
But to just amuse you a little ill answer one the priests blessing soldiers itís their business, but the Muslims invaded the place. Within 10 years before the conflict 90% of Kosovo was Serbian, but the Muslims threatened, killed, and overrun them. Priests were hunted and murdered before the war; the Muslim KLA was classified as terrorists. They were defending their holiest place since many Serbians died in Kosovo defending it against Muslims for centuries. Even in the US army you have military Chaplinís blessing the soldiers before they go to war since that may be their last time they come back. Do you know what the reports of mass graves was BS by many independent countries? Did know that ethic cleaning against Muslims is a BS to cover up the ethic cleaning of Serbs? Do you know that Serbs are being ethnically cleansed now? Do you know how many Serbians got killed? Do you know that the first genocide in the 20th century was by Muslims against Slavs? Did you know ethnic cleansing happened against Slavs in ww2 by Hitler, Catholics, and Muslims? Do you know they are still being oppressed women kidnapped and sold in Muslims counties and in Israel which they do nothing about a billion dollar industry of kidnapped Christian Orthodox sex Slaves? You also have Serbia contaminated the air, water, and soil, with depleted uranium, but curse those priest for praying to stop it they should just swallow uranium and be happy, right? If you support Muslim so much to ethnically cleans then go live in a Muslim country like turkey which has massacred many Christians.

You should start reading the bible yourself, history, and news form many source that keep posting BS. Nice to know you show that you donít know what you are talking about and I sometimes clarify but it gets to be annoying when I need to reply by posting an essay for one small comment.

The SOB quote was from Regan which means that the US is friends with terrorist SOB countries as quoted by the former president.
And again as I knew it would be that I have to quote again what I said before since people nit pick, but I guess I explain too much that people canít digest it all. You want one thing that is different from the 2 religions its called forceful conversion.

And donít take the bible out of context when you quote about judging since if you look at the rest it says other explanations, but I guess that is a protestant thing again. Everyone will be judged, if you donít evaluate (judge) what is wrong then you let the evil happen which makes the person evil. So with a quote like that in how you present it you seem to almost support that Christian are attacked while a small thing Christians do like having a cross is bad. Donít give me any more liberal unchristian politically correct points of views.

If you are thinking of being Muslim then you should know how to greet and say Aselam malekum.
lol

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
warsong i am sorry but how can you say that the intentional killing of people is justified ,really warsong how dare you call yourself a Christian, those orthodox crusaders intentionally hunted down muslims and killed all the men whether babies ,teenagers or men, how is that justified,i don't care if the muslims killed everyone of you but there is no way to justifie your actions it is pure evil nothing less, really warsong what kind of a twisted mind do you have? have you no shame? what if someone killed your baby child when he was just 1 month old because you invaded him? is that fair to the child?

if george bush kills iraqi children at least he can say collateral damage,but your war wasn't against armed soldiers it was against unarmed civilians and children serioulsly warsong don't you have no compassion to innocent people being killed. what kind of a religion do you follow where priests bless soldiers so that the could kill unarmed people even the little ones.

really warsong no wonder you don't talk much about your religion SHAME ON YOU!!

i was excpecting you to say they were misguided or something but you actually defend them, really warsong you are no different from them you are even worse for sitting here and trying to justify genocide.

quote:

And again as I knew it would be that I have to quote again what I said before since people nit pick, but I guess I explain too much that people canít digest it all. You want one thing that is different from the 2 religions its called forceful conversion.


IF you don't wanna reply then don't you are the one who started the topic if you make accusations then i have the right to reply and defend myself in anyway i see fit, and forceful conversion!!! man you are tiwsted.

quote:

And donít take the bible out of context when you quote about judging since if you look at the rest it says other explanations, but I guess that is a protestant thing again. Everyone will be judged, if you donít evaluate (judge) what is wrong then you let the evil happen which makes the person evil. So with a quote like that in how you present it you seem to almost support that Christian are attacked while a small thing Christians do like having a cross is bad. Donít give me any more liberal unChristian politically correct points of views.


if you want the full context here: www.biblegateway.com ,i could have put the entire chapters but it would take too much space,everyone will be judged and the only one who can judge you is he who knows your heart(Christ) nobody gave you the authority if you judge the you will be judged, plain and simple what part of that don't you get? if you don't want to listen to other peoples point of views then why do you talk to other people if you are thinking that you can just post a condescending undermining prejudice judgmental post like that thinking that you are superior that others then don't excpect me to sit and let you do so as long as you make a post that is offensive to me my belief or my God i will defend my faith .and again how dare you ? you support murdereres and you say that i support attacking of Christians?well no i don't ,i don't support attacking of Christians and i never said i did you are just adding that part.

quote:

If you are thinking of being Muslim then you should know how to greet and say Aselam malekum.
lol


no i am not thinking of being a muslim and that is obvious, i am trying to be human,i don't support killing of innocent people regardless of their religion does that make me a muslim? i stand against people who kill others without cause just because they have different religions ,if a person is not a Christian than that is his loss , Christ will judge him accordingly but you supporting them i just can't believe this are you a human don't you feel anything when a baby is killed,what could justify that? the twisted ideologies of people like you is the result of massacares like that warson seriously i pray that the Lord shows you the way.

how much hate you must have to say something like that,i am sorry maybe i misunderstood something here,but if you are indeed defending this people then any criticizim that comes from you is just like a criticizm from satan himself, you say i don't know anything,i know well enough to know that murder is wrong and prejudice is evil.
i know well enough to tell that you have enormous prejudice to protestants and catholics and i also know that you support murder, if you ask me something is wrong with your faith not mine.

and FYI ,i know arabic not all of it but some(i am not arab),i also know christian arabs.
more devout and persecuted than any other christians.
so: alekum selam
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Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

[This message has been edited by spade89 (edited January 17, 2007).]

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
Spade - I'm not saying there aren't differences, but God did command the Israelites to kill even down to the women and children.

The act of "killing" isn't wrong. What makes a particular killing wrong is primarily the who-s involved, along with everything else that surrounds defining who.

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
Warsong is still ranting about this?

Some things never change, heh.

Jesus didn't just preach to the Jews or declare that only one religion would ever be the "true" Christians. He spoke to the gentiles as well, and wanted everybody to become Christian.

Are there going to be a few bad eggs in our religion? Sure, and not just a few - all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). I'm willing to bet if I were to take a microscope to the Orthodox religions I'd find plenty of troubles too.

And I'm still trying to find where in the Bible it says "and the only true Christians will be those who are from apostolic succession." I don't think it exists.

Jesus himself claims that his kingdom is not of this world. (John 18:36) Do not confuse Orthodox Christianity with his kingdom.

I determined a long time ago that my savior is the most important part of my beliefs. Not some history or apostolic succession.

quote:
Spade - I'm not saying there aren't differences, but God did command the Israelites to kill even down to the women and children.

Glenn Miller, a man who has devoted himself to looking at the difficult questions, has an article on this:
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/rbutcher1.html

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
That is a fantastic, well-thought article.

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Sam Washburn

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
sry,double post

[This message has been edited by spade89 (edited January 18, 2007).]

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
quote:

Spade - I'm not saying there aren't differences, but God did command the Israelites to kill even down to the women and children.

The act of "killing" isn't wrong. What makes a particular killing wrong is primarily the who-s involved, along with everything else that surrounds defining who.



first of all let us be clear on one thing, i am not saying that killing of women and children is always unjust.
i always think of this question" if you have an option of whether to kill a 1 day old baby and save all of humanity from eternal fires of hell,or to leave the baby alone and let humanity go to hell and the baby to heaven which one would you choose?" well i don't know about you but i would sacrifice a baby for saving humanity.
i said that to point out that i did not say what i said previously because i think the killing of babies in all situation is wrong.
as the matter of fact i believe the only just is God and if God says killing of babies is just then so be it. but the thing is that is not God ,God never in the Bible targeted children to be killed(as far as i know,correct me if i am wrong), even in the case of the amalakites God's intention was not to kill the children ,it was to kill the fathers of the children that link CobraA1 posted explains a lot about it.

But lets not loose sight of the argument that made me post my last post:
basicaly i said the killing of all of those unarmed children was wrong
warsong said because of the great atrocities they commited against the orhodox Christians it was justified.

as a Christian the first thing i think of is the teachings of Jesus Christ,
he told us to "Be as smart as serpents and as harmless as doves",he also told us to give your right chick if a man hits your left, and he also teached us that forgiveness is the most important thing we should do, at the time of the amalakites Christ didn't die for humanity,now Christ died for all of humanity so that we would be forgiven for our sins against God and he excpects us to do the same.
you can't ask for forgiveness on one side and try to wipe out an entire generation of people on another.

most of us have heard of the bosnia massacares ,we also heard of rwando or the holocaust, but we never saw a priest bless a man before he went out to kill an entire generation of people, think about what happened to the amalakites ,the commited great atrocities agains God's chosen people(Israelites) and they did it for centuries and the Israelites wiped them off the face of the earth with the help of God,did the amalakietes had a chance to be forgiven in the eyes of God ,no because the Messaiah wasn't born yet,God didn't excpect the Israelies to forgive the amalekites, but now let's look at what happened in the serbinan/bosnian genocide milosevic's side searched for men of all ages (including babies) he took them out to the woods and shot them in the back.

what is wrong with what he did?
1) he shot them in the back.
2) in these killings he also killed people that never did and probably would never have even touched his people.
3)he gave them no chance to defend themselves.
4)his army was powerful enough to drive them out of his land and instead he chose to kill them.
5)in contradiction with what the Israelis did to the amalekites he did not
have God's consent.
6)if he had the power to kill each one of the men,then he had power to opress them(yet he thought killing was a better choice).

7)unlike the case of the amalakites which the death of the children was collateral damage (the children were not the main targets),in this case the main objective was to wipe out the children so that they wouldn't grow up to inhabit the land or revenge their families death and to kill every man so that there would no longer be muslims in that area.


muslims had and are killing Christians all over the planet why is God not wiping them out? aren't Christians his children too?
the answer is we are his children and he excpects us to forgive this people because he gave his only son to forgive us, and he also excpects us to teach this very same people who are killing us the gospel so that they can be saved too, when a man is saved he is a whole new creation, and he excpects us to share this wonderful gift with those who don't know,i am sure that if those muslims knew the gospel and if the Christians acted accordingly to the gospel there wouldn't have been a conflict like this. Jesus tells us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. he doesn't say love your neighbor if he is a Christian, if you truly love your neighbor as you love yourself then don't you want him to be saved? what is the excuse for the orhodox Christians not to preach the gospel to the muslims?
and ask yourself what would Christ say if he saw what milosevic did? would he say "well,an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" or would he say:

Matthew 5

38You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.(J)

39But I say to you, Do not resist the evil man [who injures you]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too.

40And if anyone wants to sue you and take your undershirt (tunic), let him have your coat also.

41And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two [miles]


now warsong accused me of taking things out of context(which i didn't)so here is the link for the entire chapter of Matthew 5:
http://www.Biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&version=45&context=chapter


now be honest and tell me:
is what milosevic did right according to the teaching of Jesus Christ?
would a person who does against the teaching of the Christ be called a Christian?
was it right for a priest that was suppose to preach the gospel,preach forgiveness and mercy, to actually bless a soldier because the soldier is going to kill children and unarmed men, tie them up and shoot them in the back? can you imagine yourself being one of this men or children,or even imagine that you were the wifes and sisters.
as the matter of fact i don't think this even qualifies as an eye for an eye ,this is a head for an eye .

again whoever defends this unChristian acts should be very ashamed of himself.

and i still stand by everything i said on my last post ,nothing in the Bible justifies what milosevic and his people did .
if there is a reference in the Bible that says other wise please feel free to prove me wrong.
but i can show you many parts of the Bible where acts like this are clearly set as wrong .

btw ,i still feel sad on the way warsong tried to justify his actions,

p.s. warsong your making light weighted , mocking and undermining replies does not change what i said.

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Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
Spade - be sure to read through to the end before formulating a response. Thanks.

quote:
i always think of this question" if you have an option of whether to kill a 1 day old baby and save all of humanity from eternal fires of hell,or to leave the baby alone and let humanity go to hell and the baby to heaven which one would you choose?" well i don't know about you but i would sacrifice a baby for saving humanity.

Situational ethics and hypothetical situations for which we are not asked to solve. Did it happen in effect with Christ? Unique situation.

quote:
did the amalakietes had a chance to be forgiven in the eyes of God ,no because the Messaiah wasn't born yet,

Actually they did have a chance. You don't have to hear "Jesus" to know you are a sinner and need a savior. Or if they need to hear something, if they were positive toward God, there would have been an opportunity somewhere somehow to meet that desire, knowledge, what have you. There are Jews, and people even before Jews existed, who are in Heaven. Those in the Old Testament looked forward, we look back.


quote:
God didn't expect the Israelies to forgive the amalekites,

It wasn't about "forgiveness". It wasn't about "revenge". It was about punishment and justice. There is a difference between "forgiveness" and "mercy". At most you could say Israelites didn't "pardon" the amalekites. Rather the Israelites carried out God's punishment upon the Amalekites. It was about the Israelites, but it was also, or perhaps more(?), about the Amalekites and their response to God.


quote:
1) he shot them in the back.
where is that "wrong"? Dishonorable perhaps in certain circles but just the pure act...no.

quote:
2) in these killings he also killed people that never did and probably would never have even touched his people.
"never did" could apply to the dead women/children of Old Testament. Whether "probably never would" - that gets into dictating the future actions. You might have something there, or you might not.

quote:
3)he gave them no chance to defend themselves.
If you are going to kill an enemy, that's the most effective way.

quote:
4)his army was powerful enough to drive them out of his land and instead he chose to kill them.
again removal of future threat.

quote:
5)in contradiction with what the Israelis did to the amalekites he did not have God's consent.
I'd agree, however many people compare Israel's Old Testament fighting to Muslim fighting present day. I disagree with their conclusions but the comparisons do occur.

quote:
6)if he had the power to kill each one of the men,then he had power to opress them(yet he thought killing was a better choice).
You seem to think oppression and slavery is a better choice than death.

quote:
7)unlike the case of the amalakites which the death of the children was collateral damage (the children were not the main targets),in this case the main objective was to wipe out the children so that they wouldn't grow up to inhabit the land or revenge their families death and to kill every man so that there would no longer be muslims in that area.

Um no, actually children were part of the target in at least one of the instances, and I'm pretty sure it was the target in most or many of Israel's attacks on Old Testament neighbors. I remember (don't remember the passage) of when Israel would spare and later suffered hardship.


quote:
muslims had and are killing Christians all over the planet why is God not wiping them out? aren't Christians his children too?
the answer is we are his children and he excpects us to forgive this people because he gave his only son to forgive us, and he also excpects us to teach this very same people who are killing us the gospel so that they can be saved too, when a man is saved he is a whole new creation, and he excpects us to share this wonderful gift with those who don't know,i am sure that if those muslims knew the gospel and if the Christians acted accordingly to the gospel there wouldn't have been a conflict like this. Jesus tells us to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. he doesn't say love your neighbor if he is a Christian, if you truly love your neighbor as you love yourself then don't you want him to be saved?

You're right but your premise at the beginning would preempt a military response to an invasionary force, something that is definately not part of God's plan. There is a reason for freedom through military victory.

The revenge words of Christ have to do with relations between say me and you on the street. It is not in reference to relations between nations. Should the leadership keep a humble heart with an eye and ear toward the Lord? Yes, but "being neighborly" not at the expense of the health and provision of those whom he rules or takes care of as God's "representative" to that nation. I'm referring to positions of authority as to be respected not as God's "right hand" in terms of old royalty, but rather respecting the position for what the position is. Someone else might explain this better.
Case in point might be JFK and Cuba/Russia, or maybe Reagen and Iran/Contra (though I haven't researched that as much as JFK/nukes), and certainly an example might likely be Bush/Iraq.


quote:
nothing in the Bible justifies what milosevic and his people did

The biggest difference between Israel and Milosevic and similar situations is the presence of God's representation in the form of prophets. I do not agree that prophecy currently exists, thus any military action taken on "God told me to do it" is in fact a lie and thus subject to such laws as defining war against combatants but which is much more complicated and current policies as expressed in the media are much too "soft".

In that I would agree Milosevic was wrong. Certainly in that such death was
A) not covered by prophecy or dictation of God
B) I can't imagine there were that many criminal elements
C) lack of military action or personnel in those dead? - The fighting in that area is not something I list(ed) on my daily reading. In general my feeling is more that the US is not the world policeman, if something affects us - we should go in. Balance that with whether or not we should have entered WW2 earlier....*shrug*

Those three points, especially the last two - military action (nation or personal level such as self-defense) and response to criminality - are the only "sanctioned" deaths that I'm aware of at...*checks*...1:40am tonight.

It is not our place to make war upon a "people", to "clean up" from where Ishmael and Esau along with the rest of the Israelites failure to wipe out the idol worshipping neighbors.

Conflict will arise from ideological and economic pressures. Can't and shouldn't be avoided at the expense of the following:
Simplistically, it is humanity's individual's place to make sure that locations exist where freedom to worship is maintained and to provide a base of support for missionaries.

Rounding up and executing non-combatant civilians doesn't count toward those efforts.


[edit]I'll have to read that article in more depth later, thanks for posting, in skimming the first part it's pretty interesting.

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited January 19, 2007).]




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Spade
You honestly are becoming scary.
The crusaders were the Catholics which they attacked and killed many Orthodox Church countries and the churches which even the pope admitted and he said that he was sorry for ransacking but he will not return the things they stole. He is also sorry for enslaving the orthodox church which they the Muslims and the Jews have worked together to suppress for close to 500 years while the catholic church and the protestant church got power by the oppression and enslavement of the of the orthodox church and itís people. Some call that a Christian holy war but thatís just fake Christian leaders wanting more power, and as Christ said a bad tree and not bear good fruit which off springs other Christian sects.

Cobra welcome again!!!!

Yes Christ message was for everyone and he lashed at the Jews for not spreading their religion since they wanted to only go to heaven and so Christ found that greedy and not Christís way.

Only a few bad eggs? There can't be 2 truths as Christ said and that their can only be one. I am not talking about people but religion organizations which many are like false profits and false hope. All people have sinned no matter who it is, but some have more authority than others just like the apostles and saints. Remember Christ didnít write the bible but with the help of the apostles and the orthodox church which they hold the origin text to know it better than have multiple bibles that distort. Even other orthodox churches that have it in their language understand this and seek advice from the church that has the original text which no other sect does that and they interpret it their own way which Christ even said that is a SIN.

You can dig as much as you want but can you honestly say the Orthodox Church as a "whole" has more skeletons in its closet than the protestant or Catholic Church as a whole? Despite it being around 2000 years and the protestant being around for less than 500? Percentages is what counts. Even the apostles were head of the church, and the Orthodox Church is the only one to have the original and official church, original and official scripture, and many other original and official things, and even the only one to have miracles that protestant or Catholics can not disprove.

The Christ said to spread his words by mouth or text and when they Orthodox Church help make the bible they didnít have to deal with this much of a division from the church and they were the authority. They didnít put everything since no one will read a library of books but a book. They put in what they thought was best. But people take what they want from the church and then turn against it my making their own unauthorized church.

Yes Christís kingdom is not of this world and to mix man culture with religion only brings problems like the protestant church has taken and striped everything away from the original religious tradition to cultural traditions. Christ warns people not to follow traditions of man and follow traditions of god which everyone ignores.

To follow Christ you have to do 1 thing and that is to love Christ, but love is a loose word and to do that u have to do that properly and not improperly.

In the end the actions are proof enough. Have faith in Christís choice. Their is a reason why the original church is kept secret in the US and not mentioned much, since religion is a business and the worst thing for your competition is to show a better and less tarnished one.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
okay,before i get to the rest of my reply i'd like to show you an article that shows you my point of view.
the following article addreses the question:
"Christians condemn the Quran and Islam for all the violence taught therein, but say nothing about all the OT brutalities such as God commanding the utter annihilation of the Amalekites, including women, children and animals. Why this inconsistency?"

the article was meant to address this question but it gives you a clear understanding that god was justified in doing in what he did to the amalekites.

the article is:

http://answering-islam.org/Shamoun/q_amalekites.htm

now be sure to read that article before we move on.

ok let me quote this from the article:

"Hence, from a biblical perspective God is even just in commanding the death of infants and children since even they will grow up to rebel and sin against their Maker. The only way they can avoid being rebel sinners is if God decided to show them mercy and grace. Yet God is not obligated to show mercy to anyone, but he is obligated to punish sinners if he is to remain just and holy. Thus, all persons deserve to be punished and no one deserves to be saved."

that is ,God has all the right to kill children if he wants to he has no obligation to save any man!!!

next look at this:

"As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsóit is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus." Ephesians 2:1-7

the part i want you to focus on is the part that says"....even when we were dead in transgressionsóit is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus."

so when a man becomes saved(becomes a Christian),that is god's way of showing mercy ,God is showing his incomparable riches of his grace by giving us mercy and forgiveness.

Remember we are saved sinners not chosen people of God, by forgiving us he is giving us mercy and eternal life.

i know you probably already know this parable Jesus taught :

Matthew 18 23-35:

23"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents[g] was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.

26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.

28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.[h] He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.

29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'

30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.

32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."


What i am trying to show here is we are the servant that was given mercy by the Master and in God's eyes we were all born sinners,and God has forgiven all of our sins even as we sin before him again and again,even if we kill even if we become a person like hitler and kill 50million+ people if we truly regret our action and let Christ be our master ,king and savior,if we totaly submit ourselves to Christ then God will forgive all of our sins and moreover he even promises to forget our sins.
in his eyes the greatness of ones sins is to be determined only by him he is the only one who can judge which sin is greater than which therefore we have no right to say that murder is a great sin so we have to murder back, he forgave us therefore we should forgive.

again lets go back to the case of the amalakites , God showed them plenty proof of his existence yet because their lack of fear towards him he punished them,and he had every right to. the annaihalation of the amalakites was a result of God's will ,the Israelis didn't kill the amlakites because of their will.that action was a direct result of God's will.

now you might say "God no longer gives prophecies,we just look at what he did in the past and do the same." my answer will be,i agree,we should look at the past and do the same but we have to look at the whole past not just the past we want to look at. before Christ all were born sinners and unless God forgive them they were condemned to go to hell,after Christ all were still born sinners except they can be saved by accepting Christ.

here is what netcog said:

quote:

It wasn't about "forgiveness". It wasn't about "revenge". It was about punishment and justice. There is a difference between "forgiveness" and "mercy". At most you could say Israelites didn't "pardon" the amalekites. Rather the Israelites carried out God's punishment upon the Amalekites. It was about the Israelites, but it was also, or perhaps more(?), about the Amalekites and their response to God.


yes it was about revenge,because the tresspased against God's chosen people God revenged them.

and look at what it says here:
John 6 :7-8
6Therefore Jesus told them, "The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right. 7The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil. 8You go to the Feast. I am not yet[a] going up to this Feast, because for me the right time has not yet come."

those who hate us hate Christ himself,those who kill us are kill him,his word and what he stands for.Therefore he will deal with them when the time comes. the amalekites were killed because they killed God's people,This people by killing a Christian are killing Christ himself,and the fires of hell are well prepared for them to burn in, the atrocities the muslims commited against the Christians is far greater than that of the amalekites atrocity against the israelites,so who did worse ?

The muslims,and the thing is people have hated and killed Christians since the birth of Christianity,have you heard of how rome burned down, nero burned down rome to wipe out Christians,Christians were being fed to lions and tigers at the arena in rome where the gladiators fight, i could tell you hundreds if not thousands of more persecutions like this,what makes this one different,when Christians were persecuted in the past never before(as far as i know) have they fought back,a Christians purpose on this earth is to show and follow the ways of the master,that is he showed forgiveness to the world when he died on that cross we are excpected to go as far as possible in the way of forgivness ,when they hate us we are suppose to fight back by forgiving them,not fighting back,when milosevic and his people fought back they did not even put forgiving those people into consideration ,furthermore when Christians in the past got persecuted why didn't they fight back ,just as the muslims fought back and converted by killing,why didn't Christians do that?because Christianity is different!!if the Christians in the past used the sword to fight back and if that was the will of God then surley with the help of God wouldn't we have been able to conquer the planet in a few years?

remember what jesus said:
Matthew 26:51-53
Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. 51With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. 53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?

look at the part where it says "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." Jesus made it clear that he disapproves of us using violence to defend ourselves,even to defend him.

in the context of the above scripture Jesus did not pray to God and annihialate the people that were about to capture him because he wanted the prophecy to be fullfilled but why does he add the statment "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." he added that to show that a Christian should not use violence.if we use violence then God should use violence against us,God put off the punishment that we deserve because Jesus died in our place,if we don't put off the punishment against others then he will not forgive us ,we will die by the sword.

sometimes there is no option but to use violence as in killing a man to save more than one men or something like that but those who love violence are the enemies of God.

people usually take things that happened in the Old Tastement and use it to justify their sins,There are lots of things that were allowed in the Old Testament and are not allowed in the New Testament.

and now to my reply to warsong:

quote:

Spade
You honestly are becoming scary.
The crusaders were the Catholics which they attacked and killed many Orthodox Church countries and the churches which even the pope admitted and he said that he was sorry for ransacking but he will not return the things they stole. He is also sorry for enslaving the orthodox church which they the Muslims and the Jews have worked together to suppress for close to 500 years while the catholic church and the protestant church got power by the oppression and enslavement of the of the orthodox church and itís people. Some call that a Christian holy war but thatís just fake Christian leaders wanting more power, and as Christ said a bad tree and not bear good fruit which off springs other Christian sects.


warsong please take a highschool history class that will teach you enough about the crusaders. the crusaders fought against the Muslims to control constantinople and if i am not wrong defend Jerusalem, here is a link for that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades i didn't read that whole wikipedia article but from my understanding of it the eastern orhodox Church called the cruade because the muslims were invading byzantine,i might have somethings mixed up here but my understanding of the crusades is(correct me if i am wrong) the crusades were a set of campaigns carried out by the west with humongous support and encouragement from the catholic church to battle and wipe out muslims ,they were basically jihadists except with the approval of the pope and they called themselves Christians.

quote:

You can dig as much as you want but can you honestly say the Orthodox Church as a "whole" has more skeletons in its closet than the protestant or Catholic Church as a whole? Despite it being around 2000 years and the protestant being around for less than 500? Percentages is what counts. Even the apostles were head of the church, and the Orthodox Church is the only one to have the original and official church, original and official scripture, and many other original and official things, and even the only one to have miracles that protestant or Catholics can not disprove.


exactly warsong we have been around for just 500 years and we have more followers than Orhodox Church,and as a result we are frequent target from false prophets and more people hate us than you.that means we are what the devil is targeting not you,it is our religion the devil wants to disprove by putting in skeletons in our closets,by putting in traitors in our houses,i am not saying that the devil is responsible for all of our problems we are humans and we make mistakes but as far as false preachers and decievers go their power is the master of deception satan as oppose to our master Jesus Christ.if your religion had the power to spread like fire just as our religion did then you would have had the same problems but the thing is the focus your religion has is on the righteousness and justification of your own acts not in the saving of those who are lost and spreading of the Gospel.the Lord teaches us that there will be traitors and false preachers amongst us,if you don't have them then you must not be following his way,i am not saying that there should be traitors,that would be silly but i am saying that the bible tells us that we would be targets of satan and people will try to decieve us and some of these people might be right in the middle of us. if that is not happening then the devil is not targeting you,and the only reason the devil wouldn't attack you is if he thinks you are benifiting him more than you are benefiting God.
quote:

In the end the actions are proof enough. Have faith in Christís choice. Their is a reason why the original church is kept secret in the US and not mentioned much, since religion is a business and the worst thing for your competition is to show a better and less tarnished one.


the actions are proof enough but whose actions?you never seem to be accusing us of our own actions rather you are accusing us of the actions of our enemies who say they belong with us and don't.
nobody is keeping any Church secret in the us,if your religion was strong enough to spread the word then nothing except your will could stop it from spreading.and nobody doesn't mention it because many people in the US don't even know of it's existence,further more even those who know it don't mention it because they don't believe it and those of you who believe spend more time in attacking us and much less time teaching the world about your religion.

and religion is not a buisiness it is a service,religion is not about your gain it is about the gain of your Master and Creator,in this case we our service is to the Lord.
and i don't know about other religions but in Christianity we don't tarnish or un-tarnish anything we just present what is our view of the bible and we don't tarnish our word because we don't need to the truth doesn't need modification to be believed only a lie needs to be tarnished and modified so that when the intended victim hears it he will believe it.if you tell the truth you don't need to tarnish a thing.

oh my what a long post i don't think i have ever written a post this long.

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Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

crazyishone

Member

Posts: 1685
From:
Registered: 08-25-2004
Nevermind.

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[This message has been edited by crazyishone (edited January 20, 2007).]

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
1. Don't confuse eternal forgiveness and mercy to earthly avoidance of consequences. See your comments on murder if you wonder what this point applies to.

2. English, present day usage of "Revenge" does not convey accurately what happened when God acted against a people or group who preyed upon the Israelites. The english term of vengence is close but justice would be more complete. There is an element of "getting the other back" mixed with elements of selfishness within the concept of "revenge", something that doesn't apply in God's case. Could you be correct? *shrug* perhaps, but there is too much chance of confusion if not an actual misuse or mis-definition by using the word "revenge".
I'm pretty sure such action taken was less about the Israelites and more about how those peoples were responding to God. See plentiful comments on the nature of the other societies.


3. You and warsong actually happen to see eye to eye on that Garden, Christ, Peter, sword passage. You're also both wrong in your strict interpretation. (warsong don't bother replying on this point, I already had a long thread discussion with you on it, I'm not changing my mind and I rather doubt you'll change yours.)
Essentially: Peter was to put his sword away because it was not an appropriate time for its use.


Let me state it another way.
You can't be "the Good Samaritan" if you are time-poor or money-poor.
You can't defend the helpless when you yourself are defenseless.

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited January 20, 2007).]

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
quote:

1. Don't confuse eternal forgiveness and mercy to earthly avoidance of consequences. See your comments on murder if you wonder what this point applies to.


could you be more specific on that point netcog, in which part did i confuse forgivness with avoidance?either you are not understanding what i am saying or you didn't read my post carefully, what i am stressing on is because we are forgiven we are indebted to forgive.

quote:

2. English, present day usage of "Revenge" does not convey accurately what happened when God acted against a people or group who preyed upon the Israelites. The english term of vengence is close but justice would be more complete. There is an element of "getting the other back" mixed with elements of selfishness within the concept of "revenge", something that doesn't apply in God's case. Could you be correct? *shrug* perhaps, but there is too much chance of confusion if not an actual misuse or mis-definition by using the word "revenge".
I'm pretty sure such action taken was less about the Israelites and more about how those peoples were responding to God. See plentiful comments on the nature of the other societies.

I agree on your interpretation of revenge,i believe it does mean justice, or judgment, God did what he did to the amalakites because of what they did to the Israelites, he punished them.he didn't punish them just for that though, he showed them plenty proof of his existence and they didn't fear him and moreover they kept commiting atrocities against the Israelites century after century again and again,so God finally judged them and their judgment was to be wiped out of the face of the earth.it was more about preserving justice than revenge.But still i don't how that changes anything,the point is whether God's intention was punishment or revenge the consequence was judgment.

quote:

3. You and warsong actually happen to see eye to eye on that Garden, Christ, Peter, sword passage. You're also both wrong in your strict interpretation. (warsong don't bother replying on this point, I already had a long thread discussion with you on it, I'm not changing my mind and I rather doubt you'll change yours.)
Essentially: Peter was to put his sword away because it was not an appropriate time for its use.


Let me state it another way.
You can't be "the Good Samaritan" if you are time-poor or money-poor.
You can't defend the helpless when you yourself are defenseless.



from the context of that passage Jesus clearly indicated that he was not defenseless he told them that if he prayed to his Father his Father would give him more than 12 legions of angels at his disposal.
and as for his disciples they were not defenseless they had a sword and Jesus wasn't telling us not to use the sword if you are weak, he made it clear when he said "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."he didn't say all who are weak,he said ALL.he was to refering to all humans weak or strong,man or woman child or adult.when Jesus says all he means all humans,if he wanted to get specific he would have said something like "if you draw the sword against your brother(or maybe neighbor) ,you will die by the sword" or maybe something like "don't draw the sword if you are weaker than your adversary". when a man is with the Lord his weakness doesn't matter,remember David and goliath,David was much weaker than goliath in that situation but he had the help of God so he defeated the giant goliath.so there is no way that Jesus meant if you are weak don't draw the sword he made it clear,"for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." . and if Christianity used the sword for defense where would Christianity be now?,The same place islam is.islam tells it's believers to use the sword to kill those who trespass against them or their allah.but Christianity tells us to forgive,that is one of the greatest differences between Christianity and other religions we stress on forgivness not revenge or justice ,we put justice in the hands of our creator instead of our own.and the price for getting forgiveness in Christianity is forgiving others.
as for the part where you said "You can't be "the Good Samaritan" if you are time-poor or money-poor." true i totally agree with you on that but Jesus wasn't relating or refering to that situatioin when he said "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." he wasn't refering to any specific situation or person,he was refering to all situations and persons.

btw,if warsong agrees with me on that then why on earth would he try to justify a genocide?????????
and warsong ,again whether you say that i am scary ,hillarious ,funny,ridiculous or whatever it is you call me,that doesn't change what i said, it just shows you are not taking this topic seriously,or that you are deliberatly try to act like a child by mocking a person inorder to underplay his argument,try making a good argument like netcog does instead of using a mock to undermine what i say,or is it that you are so out of replies that the only thing you could do is mock me??

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Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
Re: 1.
quote:
in his eyes the greatness of ones sins is to be determined only by him he is the only one who can judge which sin is greater than which therefore we have no right to say that murder is a great sin so we have to murder back, he forgave us therefore we should forgive.

Wrong. I don't deny the principle in the parable, however:
Sin and it's "greatness", even specific actions and their resulting consequences have been defined. All throughout the Old (and New) Testament, God defines what sin is.
Moreso, in subscribing to once-saved-always-saved, if Hitler believed in Christ (accepting salvation) when he was 8 years old and still got screwed up enough to instigate WW2+holocaust he would still be in Heaven.
The only sin that condemns us...scratch that. We are condemned by our sinful nature (even Mother Teresa), but it is only the sin of unbelief which condemns us to eternal separation from God. All sin post-salvation relates to our relationship with God and the blessings or 'cursings' (punishments/discipline) we might recieve both on earth and in heaven.

If you don't believe OSAS ( ), *shrug*, I do and certainly won't be budging on this point.


2. Sword
"Live by sword" "die by sword"

1. Peter was told to put it away, not get rid of it.
2. John 18 (and Matthew 26 includes this) refers to putting the sword away in light of Jesus' work on the cross.
3. Numerous examples exist of God's Hand directly as well as commands to his people to fight with the sword.

I don't begin to think there is a holy order of fighters ordained by God to fight evil. I do believe the statement, the only way for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing, does have some merit. Not in fullest sense mind you as it somewhat ignores God's intervention. But at the same time, just as the story of the drowning man believes firmly in God's provision and thus waves off any attempts at rescue, so to the sword-weilding human has a place.

The statement of Jesus was more along the lines of:
Peter, do not come between me and what I am here to do.
and
If you are a creature or user of violence, violence has a tendency to bite the hand that holds it.

For a better developed discussion on the sword bit:
http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/library/militia/1-1.html




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Cobra you still with me?

Spade!!!
Yes I agree you are wrong! I was going to give a detailed long reply but I would guess you can not absorb too much info.
HS I know college you donít which even professors have stated what I have. Wikipedia is not a good source for all facts but if you pay close attention to the link you sent and its description of the other crusades you will see how you are wrong that the orthodox church has no involvement in that and that the crusaders attacked the church and the countries. The pope asked the Orthodox Church to join them on the crusade and the church said NO! So yes you are wrong again.

One reason was to get the holy land but that was not the only and main reason. The attack by the Catholic Church on the Orthodox Church helped the catholic and protestant church grow. The Orthodox Church has been attacked more than others but rarely mentioned in protestant governments, but is mentioned in neutral news of countries that are Hindu, Buddhist, neutral governments, but not much from secular, protestant, catholic governments. So go ahead and watch a variety of international news.

The Orthodox Church didnít force conversion unlike the catholic and protestant churchís regular actions. They were mostly attacked and enslaved thanks to the other churches. The crusades is one example of being attacked, or you have modern day politics that prevent them, or wars like Kosovo which you support and orthodox priests are getting killed and arrested more than protestant priests thanks to protestant government actions. The Orthodox Church gets better converts and not loose ones. It is not loose to say just say you believe in Christ and you will be saved, but in the Orthodox Church you have to act it to be saved and participate in the action to be use to it. Loose religion = loose structure = which is most likely to impose loose morals on people. Quality vs. quantity and people will always choose quantity just like how most choose junk food in their actions. Society speaks volumes and you can see the actions for yourself.

In Vietnam War military divided people into religious factions and the generals didnít know what orthodox Christians were and stuck them with Jews lol. You also didnít know much about it said you couldnít think of another church so easily, but even if you did many others donít.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22orthodox+church%22+%22kept+secret+in+america%22&btnG=Search
As you see many sources that even admit itís not well knows because it is a big threat. Not even the yearly miracle of the holy fire is mentioned and can not be proven. America is very secular to embrace orthodox so it takes something more liberal like Protestantism which has as much tradition as an atheist at his weekly bar.

ďAs several commentators have said, the Orthodox Church is the best-kept secret in America. Because of this, many people are not familiar with her teachings, or confuse her with the Roman Catholic Church.Ē
http://adamsemail.net/book/ysktt-intro.html from a former non orthodox

http://sthermans.ca/resources-evangelical-fervor.asp ďEvangelical Fervor takes on Orthodox Flavor ď
The days of Orthodox Christianity being the best-kept secret in North America are over," ďthat 85-90% of the new people in Orthodox churches are Christians from another part of Christendom.Ē
ďThey (protestants) were surprised to learn that the early church was liturgical, sacramental and had bishops. "We didn't want to discover these things," he says.Ē

ďProtestants, especially of the evangelical type, have consistently and intentionally reduced the amount of Scripture actually read in their services by eliminating the historic liturgies and the lectionaries. At Grace Church, perhaps 10 to 15 verses of Scripture might be read in a 90-minute service. A typical Orthodox liturgy, on the other hand, has hundreds of Scripture verses.Ē I guess itís a protestant thing to nit pick, now I understand how many people act.

http://adamsemail.net/book/ysktt-chap1.html
contradiction with protestant views and go automatically against god.
ďAnd if this is the case, then having already rejected tradition, Grace Church specifically, and those who hold to Sola Scriptura in general, have no objective place to ground their doctrine.Ē
ďIt does not say that only Scripture is inspired, just that everything that is Scripture is inspired.Ē protestant interpretation messes it up since it uses manís traditions to interpret scripture.

Continuing the history lesson, Gillquist explains that "for the first thousand years the Church was one," until a major dispute in 1054 separated Rome from the four other patriarchal centres. The Protestant Reformation in 1517 further splintered the western church (some 2,600 denominations at last count). But the East has continued with relative uniformity the traditions of the "one, holy, apostolic, catholic church." "This church hasn't rearranged the gospel over the centuries," he says.Ē
ď"This church (orthodox) hasn't rearranged the gospel over the centuries,"Ē
ďAnd, Klysh notes, leaders of at east two local Protestant congregations (Anglicain and Pentecostal) were asking for more information.Ē From the Orthodox Church. The leaders of the church look for it but the people take the law of god into their own hand since many think they are above the law. It may be cool to look like a renegade but not the way to God.
Christ was always with Man and he did not leave "I will never leave you nor forsake you." Hebrews 13:5, NKJV so Christís teaching didnít get re established when the protestant church came or with a new protestant church coming out every year. As Christ said ďo what little faithĒ
Yes this is a short reply. You donít want to know what a long one is. Lol Look first before you ask a question.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
on what you said about the once-saved-always saved thing, well i agree with you on that but i don't see where i said an opposing view.


quote:

Wrong. I don't deny the principle in the parable, however:
Sin and it's "greatness", even specific actions and their resulting consequences have been defined. All throughout the Old (and New) Testament, God defines what sin is.


I think you might have misunderstood me on this one, i did not say that sin was not defined,sin is defined and it's consequences are also well defined, but they are defined so that we will not commit them, not so that we could judge other people using them.
here is what i said in my previous post:

"in his eyes the greatness of ones sins is to be determined only by him he is the only one who can judge which sin is greater than which therefore we have no right to say that murder is a great sin so we have to murder back, he forgave us therefore we should forgive."

he told us the greatness of a sin so that we would not committ it and also to show us his opinion on that kind of sin.but when it comes to judging people God does not judge the way we humans do,when God judges a person he looks at his past since the time he was born,but when we judge we judge based on what happened now. his way of judgment is perfect we are imperfect therfore our judgment cannot be perfect,moreover the greatness of a sin is told to us by God so that we would not comit them or to show us his opinion of us if we commit those sins, he did not tell us the greatness of a sin so that we could judge other people based on it.a sin is a trespass against God and it is to be punished only by God.not by man ,if the punishment of a sin was to be handled by men then what is the point of hell??? i do ofcourse agree that if a punishment is for corrective purposes men can carry it out but i don't see how the greatness of ones sin is relevant for corrective purposes.

2.sword
looking at that link you posted i have to say my view about "live by the sword,die by the sword" changed a lot. before reading that article my thought was violence and the use of the sword is absolutley forbidden ,but after i took a look at that article it had me wondering and i researched the subject a bit.and here is what i got:


just before Jesus got arrested and judas betrayed him:
luke 22:36-38
He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

38The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied

that shows that Jesus wanted the disciples to carry swords,but then a question arose in me,why?

researching on the subject more:


right after judas betrayed him and malchus's ear was cut off:
John 18:10-11
10Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)

11Jesus commanded Peter, "Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?"

Jesus in this verse tells peter to put his sword away, why-because Jesus wanted the prophecy to be fulfilled, what was about to happen was his destiny.

but why does it say the following in Matthew?
Matthew 26:52
"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

to answer this question,we have to closley look at the situation.
the disciples are told to carry the sword,but Jesus says if they used the sword they will die by it.it seems contradictory but it isn't we have to look at the why in this situation why did Peter use the sword,or why did Jesus tell them to carry the sword?Peter clearly used it to defend Jesus,but Jesus told him to put away the sword because he wanted his destiny to be fulfilled,but why does he say "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword." why did Jesus say "all".it is clear that Jesus meant all humans,but Jesus said draw the sword not use the sword,Jesus could have said "for all who use the sword will die by the sword." but he wanted us to use the sword but not draw it. well you might ask how can you use the sword if you don't draw it.well when Jesus said"all who draw the sword"in this situation if we look closley Peter was starting a violence not stopping it,Jesus told us to carry the sword because at times we may need to defend ourselves and maybe even others from inevitable violence, but here, that was not the case , Jesus was about to be arrested but he hasn't been convicted of anything yet.

to be more clear let me use a hypothetical situation, lets say someone you know is about to be arrested for murder charges and you know that there is a good chance of that person being convicted,because all the evidence points towards that person and you also know that this person did not commit the crime because he/she was with you at that time and for some weird legal reason you cannot testify,what should you do that person is about to get killed for a crime he/she didn't commit ,should you use violence and stop it,or wait until execution day and try to stop it?

well if you wait until execution day then maybe you could pray to God in that time and if you have faith in him God will deliver you out of that situation,but if you use violence as a way of solving this situation then you will fail because you just made violence your first solution while you had another solution.what if God intervened and the evidence got lost,or what if the evidence was a result of an illegal search and your friend will be free?

see,when Jesus said all "who draw the sword" he meant drawing the sword while there are other solutions or drawing the sword because it is the easiest thing to do.

Jesus told us to carry the sword ,to prevent immediate violence not violence we predict.
to make what i just said clear let's take another hypothetical situation:

you and your friend are standing side by side,you are carrying a gun for protective purposes, you and your friend are walking on a sidewalk of a street, suddenly drive-by shooters start shooting everyone ,and they are about to shoot you and your friend,what should you do?

i'd say shoot them before they shoot you,there is no other option,not shooting them makes you guilty of the murder of your friend and of yourself.there would be no point in it ,you wouldn't be promoting any kind of peace or forgiveness.


the thing is there are many dangers that can only be escaped using violence,they are usually things like an animal trying to kill you or a radical terrorist trying to blow himself up to kill any Christian he sees, you would be guilty of the violence that you could have prevented if you don't use the sword.but when you use violence inorder to stop a non-violent situation from occuring you are drawing the sword first. you are starting violence,just as Peter did,the 2 swords Jesus told us to carry were to be a last means of solving a problem,Jesus never said that all problems could be solved by non-violent means.
that made me look into the meaning of the following verses:

Matthew 5:38-39
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.


i believe here Jesus meant ,if there is another option.if we look carefuly we can see that Jesus used strike,he meant as in if a man hits you,don't hit back.But that brings us back to the situation where he told us to carry the sword. well the sword is a method of killing and it should only be used to stop killing.
not to stop a possible(predicted) killing or for any other reason. Jesus told them to carry the sword because he knew that there would always be someone trying to kill them,because they preach the truth,and if they get killed before spreading the word then they are doing more harm to the cause(Christianity),rather than good,when Jesus told Peter what he told him,he was making clear the purposes of the sword.


and here is what i found in researching even more for this reply:
Romans 13
Submission to the Authorities
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.


without getting into the details of these verses, we can clearly see that the authotities and/or other "God's agent's of wrath" also have the right to exercise the use of violence,but they are God appointed(God predestined them).

so here is what my opinion about this is - i think that we should carry the sword but we should only use it to prevent inevitable violence,if we are the authorities then we have to enforce the law,if we are under the autorities then we have to obey the law, unless the law is against our religion, even if that is the case unless violence is a last option we should never use it. Jesus told us to carry the sword for protection purposes not offensive ones.

i am glad i got into this argument because it made me address some of the topics i didn't bother to look deep into.
and if anyone wants to correct me or add something feel free,i am a human and i did/possibly am/and will make mistakes.and the last thing i want to make a mistake about is in the understanding of the Bible.

------------------
Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
quote:
Cobra welcome again!!!!

Thanks

quote:
Cobra you still with me?

To tell the truth, not really - my life has been, and probably will be for at least another month, very busy .

In fact, I am expecting a week or two in which I cannot reply again very soon.

quote:
http://adamsemail.net/book/ysktt-chap1.html
contradiction with protestant views and go automatically against god.

Unfortunately, the article has some broken links - including a very important one thich claims that:

quote:
Most certainly Martin Luther, John Calvin, Ulrich Zwingli, John Wesley, CH Spurgeon, Billy Graham, John MacArthur and Zane Hodges all claim Sola Scriptura yet come to very different positions on important theological issues *.

The star leads to a broken link, so I do not have the information about which positions the author is discussing.

I can answer this question, however:

quote:
Are they all equipped for every good work even if they teach heresy?

I hate to ask this, but is there anybody who is going to teach perfectly? The Bible claims that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Anyways, I didn't find the article all that convincing. Other than harping on the meaning of a couple of words, I didn't find too much that could change my mind. I found quite a bit of Argumentum ad Ignorantiam and Argumentum ad nauseam, however.

quote:
Remember Christ didnít write the bible but with the help of the apostles and the orthodox church which they hold the origin text to know it better than have multiple bibles that distort. Even other orthodox churches that have it in their language understand this and seek advice from the church that has the original text which no other sect does that and they interpret it their own way which Christ even said that is a SIN.

I do not disagree that the original language is the authority. If I have problems with a translation, I always try to find what the original text says, as I do not trust translations. This is one place where we agree.

In fact, it is one place of many - I come from a very conservative church, and I did in fact have a little bit of knowledge of Orthodoxy as part of our religious classes. We share many beliefs. The biggest issues between my church and yours are the importance of apostolic succession and the importance of an earthly church. Other than that, we share most beliefs.

quote:
You can dig as much as you want but can you honestly say the Orthodox Church as a "whole" has more skeletons in its closet than the protestant or Catholic Church as a whole?

Does it matter? Will my faith be any more or less if my church has more or less problems?

quote:
Percentages is what counts.

What percentage do I need to be saved?

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited January 21, 2007).]




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cobra
Well that site is not an official orthodox site but that guy said it in his point of view of being a former non orthodox person, which I assume he was an atheist.


It links are broken and you and u have a fire fox extension to go back to how the page was u can see it. or you can go to internet archive.
the broken link seem to have been this
http://web.archive.org/web/20050410031131/http://adamsemail.net/book/ysktt-note1.html
the link just says to look at 2 books "See, for example, the debate between John MacArthur and Zane Hodges in their books Faith Works and Absolutely Free. The directly contradict each other, both claiming the authority of the Scriptures and rejecting the other as not "a man of God" (see footnote for that word) and in effect as a heretic. Who should we believe?"
and those 2 books are.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0849908418/socreligionchris
and
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310519608/socreligionchris


Sure no "person" is perfect but Christís laws/church is perfect to teach it that someone that teaches it from their homes, garage, and little communities. Most Christian places talk about it than teach it and most take out the vast majority of what the bible says and steer people to one side and not present the entire thing which are big indications of bad consequences as this topics shows some examples. If we questions Christís church as not good then what does that say about Christ? Their is always going to be people that fall short as Christ says but the church as a whole is what counts. Just like how the pope wants to be head of the church which he is not perfect while the orthodox church their is no head and all the experienced priests vote what should or should not be just like how they selected what should or should not be in the bible which everyone uses.
As I explained in the post http://www.christiancoders.com/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum9&topic=000250 Maybe its best to read the last few replies I have than the entire post.

Christians taking the religion into their own hands is dangerous since many distort it.
http://www.christiancoders.com/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum9&topic=000253

You go to original translation? so u knows Ancient Greek? Well I guess that does helps but shouldnít also be the main source. Christ came to establish the church which many protestants reject or make their own variations.
"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:20-21).
Also Apostle Peter warns against personal interpretation of Scripture saying: "Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scripture ... knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of man and lose your own stability" (2 Peter 3:15-17)
I explain more here http://www.christiancoders.com/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum9&topic=000248

If you see any other broken links try out http://www.archive.org/search.php

I donít think that our churches are the same and that the only thing is apostolic succession, there's also religious tradition which Christ said to follow, there's also fasting which helps in a many ways to help condition someone to act more Christian and not that 1/2 a$$ fast like Catholics do, and many other. Have you ever asked a priest about apostolic succession? I read some articles about it which explains it well but they are a bit too long for most and people will ask more questions which is also very time consuming. But remember the bible is filled with metaphors which you agree so can someone say they are your kid and they are not related to you and they do close to the same or the opposite of what you do? the same with religion how many Christianís sects pop up claiming to be Christian when they have no authority from the original Christian church.

Percentage to be saved? lol Not my place to answer. But what percentage should you do to be like Christ, and how the original apostles that were bishops of the church acted? I think questions like that are best left for priests, despite many Christians reject priests and the church which Christ brought. Sure there can be protestants that act better than orthodox people, but if we look at throughout time more protestants have done more hard to themselves and others, and the church has done more harm to themselves and others. This is a protestant nation and yet they blame the devil for loosing power to secularists than taking responsibility. If people see the devil all the time then they have issues. As one apostles said faith without action is nothing. Their is so much material to use against protestants in how they shape the world to be messed up that makes Muslims look good. Its not Muslims fault that they have many kids and spread, I guess too many protestants and Catholics favor abortion, womenís movement, gays, etc and the force it on other Christian countries and if others donít do what they want they get attacked and are politically threatened with embargoes and boycotts. If a protestant government says jump protestants joyfully say how high, and non protestants disappointingly have to say how high. Religion, Politics, business is all the same wrapped into one in todayís society.

Anyway I am just like anyone else in here, the difference is that I know I canít take the law of god into my own hand and neither do the priests which is why it's a collective to prevent personal decision making. Christianity is not a religion of opinions and people make it out to be just that. As much of nothing as I know about religion compared to priests, I can honestly say many know far less than me, despite I can keep my stand on religious topics.

I hope that answered it all. Too bad some will close their ears and ignore many logical points.

So you are having a baby?
Good luck on everything.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
warsong,my eyes and ears are open,my loyality is first and fore-most to the Father,Son ,and Holy Spirit. see i know a lot About orthodoxy ,don't ask me how but i do(i rather not talk about it.)but anyways i agree with some of the orthodox beliefs,like the way you describe The Trinity , if i am not right correct me but this is how you liken The Trinity right:

"The Tinity is one but has Three properties,to be likened to the sun,the sun has three properties it's hot,it's bright and it is spherical. so is The Holy Trinity, The Father,The Son and The Holy Spirit.The Trinity is Omnipresent, Omnipotent, Omniscient."

if i am wrong please correct me.

But the thing is there are also many of your Belief that i disagree with,mostly as far as i know you are like Catholics. you believe that Mary the Mother of Jesus saves,but i Believe That Mary is to be loved and charished for being the mother of our saviour Jesus Christ but i don't think she saves,because Jesus made it very purely clear that he is the only way to the father. and i also know that your Church annoints saints which i think is wrong because as you said Christ is the only head of the Church and i believe that only he can say who is a saint and who is not.

i believe in fasting actually maybe it was 2 or three years ago back when i wasn't a protestant, i fasted the fast right before easter i believe it was 52 days,if i am not mistaken,i fasted approximately from the morning to 3 in the afternoon without any food or water,and when i ate food i only ate foods that don't have and didn't make contact with butter,meat,egg,anything that has anything to do with an animal,definetly no alchol or milk.
But the problem was like many fasters i didn't understood the meaning of fasting,i can't say that i even prayed in that whole time.

i still believe in it But i think fasting should be something you should do just between you and God,and not something you should do in an organized mass thing.

one of the biggest problems i have found with catholics and orhodox's is you don't stress on having a personal relationship with God.you portray him as a being up in heaven watching down on us while in reality God is all ways with us in every place ever created.

as i said my first and fore-most loyality is to The Trinity, second is to my religion .religion the way i see it is a way of worshipping God, and i have found that protestants seek the true meaning of the Bible not the meaning their priests told them,no real Christian follows a pastor,he follows Christ. and i know that you have Apostolic succesion and stuff but just like catholics many thing have been added to your religion that were not present in the original Church.

again warsong i don't think you understand our religion,you have never seen a real protestant, 94% of america say they are Christian and you see what everyone sees, the tv evangelists ,the popular rich preachers,the false prophets,etc.... i am not saying that all of them are false believers, only The King of Kings knows that.What i am saying is the true believers are few and MOSTLY you don't get to see them, our religion is not an organized body like yours we don't have weak or strong structure because there is no one structure we basically agree that the Bible is the only Truth and The only way to The Father is through and only Through Jesus Christ our Saviour,Master,and Dearest friend. how we worship him depends from Church to Church.and we all agree that Christ is The Head of our Church and of us.

i don't want to be judgmental here but lots of protestant Churchs are lukewarm,just like the Bible says,That's why i think it's important that we base our religion solely on The Bible and Christ,not what others tell us.

if you truly believe that your way is the way and i had some things wrong then please correct me instead of mocking me my religion and the things we believe in.after all you seem to be forgeting that the Kingdom Of Heaven is at hand!!!!

and how can you excpect me to listen to your ideaology while you keep supporing unjustified genocide(which failed by the way ,the muslims are still out there???) be true to your belief and argue based on your beliefs not ours.

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Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ




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Interesting my post got erased. But the site was acting weird yesterday so i should have known.

Well in short you are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
The details have been erased but in short you are following man laws than gods since Christ didn't make many sects but came to make the church and he wanted that not to be divided.

If you want explanations why you are wrong go ask the priest what you asked and see that you are misunderstanding a lot about orthodoxy and what the bible which the orthodox church help make by priests. If you discount priests then you automatically discount the bible. As Christ said follow his teaching my written and "ORAL" traditions of the church. I guess their is a reason why all verses are not presented outside of Orthodoxy since they all want to show one side of the story which is evil and thus evil action accrue and then the people that follow those actions always blame the devil than take responsibility.

maybe someone asked the question you did so see past questions from non orthodox people. http://www.oca.org/QAindex.asp?SID=3
Message me on what he says and why he says it.

On on religious questions you are also WRONG! Politics is a messy issue and you have to see what the majority say especially the neutral side and you will see that the Serbs and the church were ethnically cleansed and destroyed before, during, and after the conflict. And that their were many false accusations by the Muslim side.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
if a priest goes against the teaching of Jesus then he is not a priest he justl likes to call himself one so it would be a sin to follow him wouldn't it? the big thing that i can't accept is the whole thing with Angels and Mary saving you instead as an alternate to Jesus.

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Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

NetCog

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quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
As Christ said follow his teaching my written and "ORAL" traditions of the church.

I'd love to see this passage please.




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spade
I am not replying to you anymore so again email the priest and tell me so I can hear what he said to you. Don't worry many non orthodox people message him too.

net
Christ said to follow written and oral which I put the quote in the religious forum under...the post word of god.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
Um.. yeah.. i'd like to see that passage of scripture too.

EDIT: I can't find that other post. Can you post a link to it?

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Sam Washburn

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited January 25, 2007).]




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http://www.christiancoders.com/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum9&topic=000248

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:

http://www.christiancoders.com/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum9&topic=0002 48

So yea...you're going to have to maybe quote where you're talking about because this 'heretic' certainly doesn't see any reference to Christ, "follow written and oral" in your posts. I see plenty of the Orthodox Church making that statement. But I don't see Christ making that statement. So umm yea...cough up the passage boyo.




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I guess you are right that I didn't post it. But the post was similar to what we were saying anyway.

ď2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.Ē

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter (NIV)."

Do you follow Christian tradition? Maybe we should throw that passage out of the bible for some Christians. But now we are just jumping to other topics.

There were also some other good passages. But you can quickly check for some online. Some randome site I just found that talk about it...

"Admittedly there are some passages in the New Testament that are very difficult to translate. This, however, is not one of them. The syntax is straight forward and the vocabulary simple. Furthermore, there are no significant textual variants for this verse that might support the NIV translation. Any second year Greek student could translate this verse correctly."
Where is Brandon or Cobra since I think they know some Greek.

"In light of this, it is certainly not surprising that Evangelicals have a hard time finding anything positive to say about tradition. Most are completely unaware of the fact that in addition to the passages cited above, there are other passages in the New Testament in which tradition is mentioned in a positive light, where we are actually commanded to keep the oral traditions that have been handed over by the Apostles. "
http://lasvegasorthodox.com/library/Orthodox_doctrine/Tradition_1.htm
The site seem to say some other interesting info, but thats is their opinion of the matter.

In the end going against scriptures which tradition helped bring it about it not good. But the problem is trying to read the scriptures properly.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
And there are some Christians who think the KJV is the only version you should use and not only that -but that you are not a true Christian if you don't use the King James version.
samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
First that was Paul, not Christ in 2 Thes., and secondly I'm offended by your statement in that thread, that the Holy Spirit is not enough to understand God's word.

I trust the still small voice of God leading me through his word more than the pious bellowing of a priest who's "heart is sinful and desperately wicked." (Jer.17:9)

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Sam Washburn

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited January 29, 2007).]




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laz
you can use other translations as references but they are now the official word of god but interpretations of it since non of them are perfect, and many can be misunderstood especially without the guidance of priests and religious tradition that is 2000 years old and not.

sam
Are you denying Paul now? You know the bible is full of metaphors and as it stated you can not live off "bread" alone.
"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed (Gal. 1:8). In other words, he is speaking of the Gospel that he handed down to them with a living voice and not only by written word."
http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/ec_holy_tradition.aspx
More info on the link.

Remember that even before the division of the church the orthodox church was the only one and they have stated before then

"Saint Gregory of Nyssa (+394 AD) writes: We have the Tradition set out for us from the Fathers like an inheritance by apostolic succession and transmitted via the saints"

"Saint Basil the Great (+379 AD) in his writings provides similar testimony. Here is how he expresses it: Among the dogmas and kerygma (evangelical truths) that are safeguarded in the Church, some we have from the written teachings while others were received orally from the Tradition of the Apostles by a concealed succession. The later hold the same legitimacy and force as the written texts (On the Holy Spirit)"

Traditions of man take away the traditions of the church which Christ wanted us to follow. And we gave Christianity to people and as u said they can be corrupt,and as this post stated its because of that that secularists have power thanks to Christians sects with a weak foundation, no tradition, no history or bloody history, no real expertise, and the list goes on.

Remember even the bible stay to get guidance from priests, but yes every person sins as I stated but the church as a whole has more authority since Christ came to make the church if you remember which passage that was from.

I explained some points to cobra in this post which you can take a look at.
You can also email the priest on the link I told spade and see what he says.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
Could someone point out to me how in these discussions someone in these threads has been built up and not torn down?

I have, when I stopped getting involved in the debate

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[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited January 29, 2007).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Lava Lava Lava -

You're missing out on something wonderful - something amazing.
Email the priest like I did and you will become enlightened and join in the debates again. (On Warsong's side)

Your paragraphing may suffer though...

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
No, of course I'm not denying Paul, but I am disturbed by your lengthy texts riddled with errors and allusions as you try to come across as a religious scholar.

And Paul also says to the foolish Galatians:
"6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed." Gal 1:6-9

That church was battling the same kind of binding legalism that the "orthodox" faith imposes on its followers through vain traditions.

I will not worship directly or indirectly saints from the past.

I will not seek a priest when I have my high priest, Jesus Christ.

I will not accept the traditions of men as direction from God.

I have made my peace with God through Christ. We are friends. He is not displeased with me, even though I am not a part of your "orthodox church".

It seems like you need reconciling yourself if you would come so vehemently against his children. Do you have peace with God?

I pray his mercy on you.

@Lava -- I think most are just trying to hold up God's name.

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Sam Washburn

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited January 29, 2007).]

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
Lava Lava Lava -

You're missing out on something wonderful - something amazing.
Email the priest like I did and you will become enlightened and join in the debates again. (On Warsong's side)

Your paragraphing may suffer though...


LOL

quote:
Originally posted by samw3:

@Lava -- I think most are just trying to hold up God's name.


Aye, I see what you mean.

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Sam
Paul speaks for Christ. What next you will say you wont listen to them and only to Christ? Now you are just nit picking.
I agree that we both are not religious scholars, but priests are. You wanted answer I guide you to questions so donít complain that I am trying to answer you.
Are you denying now that ďChristĒ said to follow traditions? Are you denying the saints and the apostles? Are you denying Christís efforts to make the church?

You are denying Christian tradition and man tradition by mixing the two. Which the bible clearly states many times. Their were other Christian sects like the Gnostics which have been disbanded since it said it was Christian but did everything going against Christianity. Are they holding up Gods name?? NO and so did many fake Christian sects been stopped by the church, but when the church got enslaved that is when the Christian sects took power and spread the religion just like the Muslim religion which you can not deny, or maybe you do not know well about.

Maybe Christís actions are wrong and the original church Christ made is wrong and so maybe more things that Christ did and said are wrong. Which is what you are unknowingly saying. As the bible says ďand upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.ď16:18 what is the name of your rock? And donít give me that it was Christ since your church is not 2000 year old to be founded by Christ. Without your founder Martin Luther, King Henry, John doe, etc then there would be no sect. and no great division, which its beliefs differ greatly form the original church. They are the sectís foundation and they are not made out of rock.

ď18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.ď

Or maybe you are saying that no one could be saved since there was only the Orthodox Church for so long? Do you think God abandoned people until a particular protestant church like the Mormons that are able to marry many wifeís blessed god?

If you like it or not you are following traditions of man by denying Christian traditions. You should also not follow the bible since that was made with the help of Christian traditions. Some Protestants understand this and throw the bible out the window as well.
We are not talking about worshiping saints but it seems now that you are distorting, or changing information around, and other errors you make in how it seems.

Simplifying Christianity is simplifying Christ. As the bible says take the long, hard, narrow path. Talking to the priest is to ask questions just like how you ask questions to me, but you would rather complain that I am not expert but when I point you the way you deny it. Sorry to say you are badly contradicting yourself. I get no benefit from you knowing the other side since you asked questions do there is the answer, so donít come back and ask more questions when you already proven you deny wanting to hear it. Or are you saying you are afraid for a better explanation?

How do you know Christ is not displeased? Lets not act like Pat Robertson that says he talks to Christ and gets answers back which every time he makes predictions that Christ told him is proven wrong that they donít come true and he is also blasphemous to say that Christ says those things he tells him. Or lest not look at toast that looks like the virgin marry and say that she is trying to tell us something. These are actions that diminish the church with these false accusations when called out loud.

Remember the Gnostics and some of the crazy followers said that they are with Christ and blind followers thought that the others were going against Christ children. King Henry the 8th that help make the protestant religion in England thought he was doing gods work to kill his people since they were going against his God ordained kingship.

You do not know fully how a something simple and small as bee of fly fully thinks but you expect to know how God thinks what is far more complex than us?

I know you mean well like all Christians do and some Christian sects do but actions speak louder than words. And as the main topic points out this is a protestant country giving all the power to secularists with joy. Sometimes I donít know weather protestant sects or Catholics sects are worse in their after math, or are you denying what those sects have done in the last 500 years, and in the last 50 years how secularists praise Protestants since they work hand in hand. If you believe and do what is right good for you, then you donít needs more guidance since you are perfectly at peace as you say. The problem is that denying the vast errors helps perpetuate more errors, just like denying that there is a look in your basement will eventually give you more damage when not admitted their there is a problem. If you honestly say you are at peace then great but donít ignore the damage that spin off Christian sects from Christ established church and Christians taking religion into their own hands are doing around the world.

You believe in misinterpretations since no one looks back at the official word of god but only in man made translations they ask guidance by, but the rest of the sects are man made so it all goes together.

You reply on sin to guide you which you will only go so far.
ďThis Church is the only one which preserves intact the "Paradosis," (i.e.) - the Written and Unwritten Tradition. The Church does not permit the individual to interpret Scripture, but neither does it prevent the individual from exploring the deep meaning of the Bible to find new expressions of the same teachings of Christ. However, this always must be authorized by the Church as a whole - where infallibility lies. The Church is the "guide" and not the individual on his own, with limited ability and lack of the full knowledge of the history and basic sources of the teachings of Christ's Church.Ē As I quoted in the other post.

Man errors, you are man, and so you will error by taking interpretation into your own hands than follow what rules Christ made to follow His traditions and not your own cultural traditions to be though to rebel again Christ church to think you are better than saints that reply on the church. If you are better than saints and the apostles then you do not need church or guidance since you are saying you do not error and are perfect.

ďAlso Apostle Peter warns against personal interpretation of Scripture saying: "Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scripture ... knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of man and lose your own stability" (2 Peter 3:15-17).Ē

I agree with what you said to Lava.
Good luck

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
Haha, I always try to word things carefully with these threads in case Warsong turns things around, but alas! My efforts are in VAIN!

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Lazarus

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Posts: 1668
From: USA
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Well, the Bible does say it's a sin to be vain, Lava.
samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
quote:
Are you denying the saints and the apostles?

First off, I believe all that is written in the scriptures, but I also believe you are twisting it to fit your religion. Paul says, in essence, in that passage that I showed you, to stick to the basics and not add or remove anything. NOT ANYTHING! got it? You've added a bunch of stuff!
quote:
If you like it or not you are following traditions of man by denying Christian traditions.

This is a load of BS. Where did you learn your logic? I follow neither. Sola Scriptura.
quote:
You should also not follow the bible since that was made with the help of Christian traditions.

The bible was written by holy men of God moved by the Holy Spirit(2 Peter 1:21) not by traditions. And they were eye-witnesses giving accounts.
quote:
Simplifying Christianity is simplifying Christ.

The Christian faith is simple. You guys *make it* complex. I guess all the mentally retarded people in the Orthodox faith just go to hell, because they can't figure out your complex Christ. The long hard narrow road is a picture of how much it grinds against our sinful nature, not of how complex it is.
quote:
How do you know Christ is not displeased?

Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
quote:
Lets not act like Pat Robertson that says he talks to Christ and gets answers back which every time he makes predictions that Christ told him is proven wrong that they donít come true and he is also blasphemous to say that Christ says those things he tells him.

Don't assume everyone is a self-centered fanatic. My conversations with God are a deep communion with him around his word as I pour out my problems and see answers come to light in the scriptures, and he also reveals to me his will for my life. Its a sweet thing. But, please be careful that you do not blaspheme his Holy Spirit with your quips. That is a dangerous position to be in.
quote:
You do not know fully how a something simple and small as bee of fly fully thinks but you expect to know how God thinks what is far more complex than us?

Jesus said in Matthew 11:25 "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children." Did you get that? God reveals deep truth to little children (i.e. the simple), and not via a priest either. I don't "figure out", God REVEALS. I simply accept what he shows me.
quote:
Sometimes I donít know weather protestant sects or Catholics sects are worse in their after math

People who call themselves orthodox have committed the same atrocities. I follow God through Christ, not a sect.
quote:
You believe in misinterpretations since no one looks back at the official word of god but only in man made translations they ask guidance by, but the rest of the sects are man made so it all goes together.

I study the greek and hebrew by means of a concordance. I am interested in the core, true word of God. But, I don't need a priest to tell me when the Holy Spirit is my guide and I "Study to show myself approved unto God". But, again, God through Christ makes it simple enough for a child to believe, you make it complex.
quote:
Man errors, you are man, and so you will error
True, but I trust the PERFECT Holy Spirit of God whom I have yielded my life to. Which you have previously said was "not enough". Care to explain?
quote:
ďAlso Apostle Peter warns against personal interpretation of Scripture saying: "Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scripture ... knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of man and lose your own stability" (2 Peter 3:15-17).Ē

I would say this is what your "church fathers" have done and you have been lead astray. I go to the source and trust God's Spirit to reveal.

Again, I ask you, "Do you have peace with God?" Are you like the "wise and learned" having the things of God hidden from you, or are you like the "little children"?

God wants to communicate with you personally. Go to the source, and skip the middleman

God bless you on your search!

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Sam Washburn

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited January 30, 2007).]




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Sam
Did god tell you that you are not twisting things? You are not better and you are no expert. You keep assuming about orthodoxy which you know the saying about assuming. It does not add new things to scriptures if you pay attention well, but if you did understand then we wouldn't be talking about it.

Your traditions are just as wide as an atheist. As a rabbi said a religion that offers less is less. Speaking of rabbi many protestants side with the Jewish religion than with the Christian more since they give the most money to Israel than any other Christian nation combined, and whenever a protestant leader doesn't support it he gets booted from being the head of the following. Kind of odd that being protestant is being conditional to what political view you have. But that is how that religion works best by mixing politics and culture into it.
More reference in other post
Winner of the distorted bible Your church encourages separation of churches do enjoy the PC book)
http://www.christiancoders.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000253.html
Leader of protestant church says you don't need Christ. Well good for them that the church officially states that,but it was always expected. And they also put a women in charge since they don't want to follow Christian traditions but MAN MADE traditions to go with political correctness.
http://www.christiancoders.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000250.html

Yes the bible was written by holy men but you are denying who the holy men are it seems. You are now scaring me of the misinformation or your intentional one sided presentation of things. Good thing some of the main protestants sects are keeping up the good name of protestantism and are rejecting Christ as the savior, its like they are being more honest now to say that it was never about Christ. But thats the point I am making which you keep denying. The proof are in the actions, but as you assume of the orthodox church adding, you see which church did far more devastation since adding on only encourages or backs up the scriptures, while your doesn't which is why you get the action you get from protestant churches.

Now you are starting to be nasty to call names lol, now I know you are being close minded since you have resorted to those tactics. Remember rage blinds people. Christianity is simple to the people that know the is in their native tongue unlike the others that find it complex. The protestant church misinterpreted the scriptures for most of its existence and it has done a lot of bad thing, but you think thats good. Since even the Russian church asks the original church for help in the translations, while most non orthodox think they know it all. Maybe it was wrong for some apostles to be bishops of the church since you obviously reject a lot. You check out my saying from shaw? That is how the protestant church makes Christianity by putting its own traditions in, since the people were use to not following religious traditions and so they put that in the religion as well. Remember the bible has metaphors to apply to other things as well.

Check this post out, interesting similarity and obvious why Christ chose it. Since as Christ said or should I say the bible :P to put seed in good ground for the foundation to be a rock. http://www.christiancoders.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000233.html

Your quote doesn't apply to protestant sects that distort as the leader of one protestant church said that you don't need Christ.

I agree that not all Christians are not as you said fanatical like Pat Robertson, or Ferry Farewell, the Bakers, or the many other fakers out their, but the thing is that they are the ones that have so much power that their many errors are misguiding Christians which you have to agree with. Hence the negative things going on society to have secularists taking control and Christianity being dragged down with them. The foundation is not good since its origins are not good, which you rarely see good things form the sects but bad things.

Now you cant honestly say that a kid can be a minister now? Axxx why not they put a lesbian women so why not kids, I just am curious what the protestant church will do next, maybe force animals to pray. The apostles were wise so but you want it that we should have not listen to them and listen to kids only? Everything to moderation as the saying goes. You should have faith since you do not know God well, since no one does which was the point I was making. But you distort what I am saying to make yourself feel good. Go act like a child and listen up to hear gods words and see the true actions of what are going on in the world.

You are denying that the protestants at such a short time have done at least 4 times more bad things than the Orthodox church that has been around 4 times more? You have nothing and you know it, all you have are assumptions. Look at the last 50 or 500 years and *** up the total. Protestant and catholic sects acted like the Muslims to have forceful conversions. They dilutes the religion to a side things than the main thing. Look at how many people died at the hands of those 2. You call catholics heretics but yet you think you can bear good fruit from a bad tree which Christ said no you can not.

You have no use for a priest, well the devil doesn't want you as well to have a need for priests. And as the bible said taking the religion into your own hand is a sin. You think you know it all but you don't. You are just as inexperienced like the rest of us weather you like it or now.

Good thing you were not around when the bible was made or else you would have seen delusions. Everyone assume they see but they mostly don't. Even Mohamed though he saw God when he made the Muslim religion and they believe in Christ but it really was the devil. So many fake Christians evangelists say they see but they assume. You need it all, you can not be saved by one thing, you can not be saved by following Christ but not believing in Christ as some protestant do, or other protestants that only believe in Christ and do whatever. Almost every sinful Christian thinks they have the holy spirit. Not even the saints thought they were good enough but you think you are better than saints since you seem to deny saints in what you say. Are you better than saints? NO

You say you go to the source which is gods scriptures, but you ignore the source to that which are the church fathers. You think you are better but you are nothing compared to saints and you have a long way to go. You are a sinner like everyone else, and as a sinner you keep saying sinfully things without knowing. You act like the modern day wise and learned which goes against the church. It discounts almost everything that the original church did. Society confuses people with too much information but their has always been orthodoxy and so people could always be saved, but their was not always protestantism which it would be silly to be only people can be saved in the last 500 year. Christ never left and Christ stays the same, only people change. And you greatly assume about orthodoxy which is why you distance yourself, no wonder you say the things you say since you know nothing of it. Learn the other side of the story first before walking in blindly or else you will be blind always.

You still didn't answer a lot of tough questions but I expected as much. Well I replied to all your comments but I see some comments stumped you as they should have. In the end I know all your arguments and you don't understand mind. I think it is easier to talk you on than spade since that guys has too many question which he tries to understand while you come in with wrong assumptions and try to sell them. It is like we are fighting and you are blind folded since u only know your side, while I can see yours as well as my side. I haven't had this much fun in a while, keep posting. I guess its because you are experienced than most people here which makes makes it that the taller you are the harder you will fall. You are not going to win with those odds and so far the only reason you are still swinging is because I want to see what you say next. But no need to fear me, the thing you have to fear is yourself.

In the end you are ignoring the main post, but I guess you have a reason since you want to deny the actions. Just like a magic trick for people to pay attention to the right hand that is distracting them from the left hand is what people should really look at. Accept that there is an error than perpetuating it, so get back on topic.

But I don't expect much of a reply from you since if you do then you have not payed attention. But in the end it comes down to time despite it being fun talk talk to you about it.

Good luck

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
Woah, back ya into a corner and boy do you growl. Even though you have not answer answered all of my questions, I will answer yours.

quote:
Did god tell you that you are not twisting things?
No, he didn't, he just reveals truth to me through his word. But I'm no one special, he does that for anyone who seeks him and puts their faith in him.
quote:
You check out my saying from shaw?
Yup. If that was the case and culture (traditions as you call them) should be eliminated then one could say all believers should be circumcised and not eat pork, because who gave Paul the right to change any of that! Paul talks about one man considering one day holy and another not giving preference, and Paul has no problem with that. There was a Jewish church and a Gentile church with different traditions. Obviously there is scriptural bounds for a multi-cultural church. Do you agree?
quote:
Now you cant honestly say that a kid can be a minister now?
No. I did not say that. I said that Jesus said God reveals truth to the simple (children) in Matthew 11:25. Its about receiving truth direct from God, not about delivering it. Ministers are deliverers of truth.
quote:
The apostles were wise so but you want it that we should have not listen to them and listen to kids only?
You misunderstand. Of course, we should believe the apostles(at least the ones in the Bible), but should also let God's Holy Spirit guide us. Jesus says "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me" Do you believe God communicates with his children? with you?
quote:
You are denying that the protestants at such a short time have done at least 4 times more bad things than the Orthodox church that has been around 4 times more?
I don't care about protestants or any other sect as a whole. I don't care who commits evil against who. People are people and they do that. I was saying its an across-the-board thing. Power corrupts the mortal heart, even ecumenical power.
quote:
Are you better than saints? NO
Even though this a rhetorical question, I will agree. "NO", I am not better than the saints. BUT, they are not better than me either, or anyone else for that matter. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" Romans 3:23

Well those are the answers to your questions.

Now some questions for you if you are willing.

First to recap my previous questions:
Do you have peace with God? If yes, how do you know?
Are you like the "wise and learned" having the things of God hidden from you, or are you like the "little children"?
Do you believe God communicates with his children? with you? how?

And a couple in response to your recent post:
Do you believe that a "saint" can change what is written in the Bible if the church approves the change?
Do you believe a person can have a one-on-one type relationship with God?
In your opinion, what is the role of the Holy Spirit?

Did I miss anything? I am sorry for this being off topic and for being such a fireball on this. You really teed me off with that comment about the Holy Spirit not being enough. I would still like to hear your comments on that, because I believe that there is man and there is God. God can be trusted, man cannot. Saints, priests, pastors, bishops, popes, gurus, etc. fall into the "man" category.

Sam


P.S. I'm not trying to be an expert, I really am just talking about things I know to be true from what I read in the Bible.

P.P.S. I am willing to split this into another thread if you want to discuss it further there. Whatever you prefer. Its your thread. When it comes to God's truth, I have plenty of time to discuss.

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Sam Washburn

[This message has been edited by samw3 (edited January 30, 2007).]

spade89

Member

Posts: 561
From: houston,tx
Registered: 11-28-2006
sam,look at other threads warsong started likes hanukah=jews killing each other, you could see how he can twist your words and give an answer tottally different from the question,i asked him to start a whole new thread about protestants vs. other... but he didn't answer and keeps starting these threads about these stories he finds and he attacks protestants using them . he is like a protestant hunter.

he talks about one thing and tries to convince you about another ,when you challenge him to clarify specific points he points out what other people say and gives you links and tells you to talk to them.

warsong:

samw3 had very important questions you should answer ,and try answering them without changing the topic.

and about what you said to "email the priest", if i wanted to talk to a priest couldn't i have googled it up myself???? if you make an argument you should answer it yourself,you shouldn't let other people answer it for you.

and serioulsly warsong if i may add a question,

if the Bible was breathed by the HolySpirit then who else better to help you understand the Bible???

answer my question if and only if you want to answer the question and not because you want to make another argument.

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Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ




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LOL
I answered your questions, but you donít want the answer or do not want to go to it when I point it to you so donít complain. Anyway, so much to explain so little time. I back you up and you avoid comments then you think I am backed up lol. Ok Iíll make you admit that I am backing you up. You are a fine guy but I am going to bug you a little since you donít listen sometimes. Lol :- )

Putting only faith in god will not get you far, you have to take action as well as Paul stated saying something like faith without action is nothing.

About circumcise they had a democracy to decide what will be in out, just like how the church runs to decide what will be in or out. If you read my other links you would understand why. The people that made democracy also had the first churches for a reason. Again do not confuse cultural traditions with religious traditions. Now you are telling me that the bible is wrong when it said to follow Christian traditions and not cultural traditions? For someone that says itís you sure stepped on a lot of land minds, and even if you think I am wrong then that just proves I am right again since there is always bound to be someone that take it into their own hand. Any way you slice it you have to admit I am right on that point. BACK UP
Also revelations is widely misunderstood which the Orthodox church does not say they can interpret the future unlike some that say they do and push for things that are unchristian because they misread it. Some say that the end will come this say or that we should do this because this happen, etc.

Culture and religion have no place together. Orthodox countries do not place man traditions above religious traditions which other place man traditions first or other sects first which contradicts their own. Everyone can be Christian but donít big your baggage to Christ since Christ does not change for you, you have to change for Christ. The church should not be divided the bible says. Adding on to Christianity is wrong as you said.

Yes, kids are not as deeply corrupt as people that live in the world longer since people get influenced by culture, which is why cultural traditions are not part of the religion. You have to admit that many protestant churchís have put Christianity with politics many times which many followers back it up. Buck up.
Putting cultural politically correct issues in the religion you have to admit, putting homosexual as priest you have to admit, etc. There are no cracks or balances you might say to have any security, since what false safe thing does it have? Nothing! Itís a gamble. Gambling is a SIN. BACK UP.

The more you do the better you are at something, and when a religion doesnít offer you anything to train yourself and just give you a book, its like me telling you to know brain surgery form a book than having someone explain it to you better. No encouragement to practice what you preach, gluttony a sin, but are their things to help encourage people not be fat? Doesnít offer any virtue to help most and many protestants admit many are not good because there are no safety nets which is why most go their own thing which is my they get influenced by cultural things. I one protestant sectís founder how chewed tobacco, and his wife didnít like since it made a mess, so he put in his sect not to chew tobacco. Who gave him or any other protestant the authority? They all assume God, how can so many protestant sects be at odds when they all heard from god? You talk to god just like everyone else and every time there is a different answer, so the logical explanation is everyone is wrong. OR Maybe there are many gods? Back up

Yes God communicates but no one listens. Even you donít want to listen when you ask a question and I point you to where you can get answer and then you complain about it. Like the bible says to lead to water but it (or you) must decide to drink. Christ gave authority to the apostles; the apostles gave authority to the earth CHURCH father, and so on to the present day priest. So are you saying Christ was wrong to give authority? So maybe we should not follow the apostles? Ignore early church father? Ignore saints? Ignore the succession? Or should we have anyone like Mohamed say they see God as well and god told him to force others to be Muslim or kill them just like the early protestant church did? Maybe they have the same God or the same vision. The means justify the ends and if the foundation is not good then the rest will crumble since you will see it in the actions. Do you deny this? So go be Muslim then since he has a bigger vision and has more followers if you want to go with that logic and with those numbers. Stay back.

Yes I agree power corrupts which is why there is no head of the church in orthodoxy, and if they have to make a decision it has to be as a whole. Unlike the other protestant example or other Christians that one person can sway an entire religion. What fail safe do you have to prevent this? Divince inspiration? If so then you are thinking too highly of yourself as stated in the last paragraph since everyone feels the same. What logical reason can you give me why when the protestant church started that Christianity went hey white? As the bible said do not patch up something that is worn out with something good. You seem to be good but you want to patch up something that is dam aged and is out of control. Itís like a crack in a pipe and instead of the water going where it supposed to, it goes out of the pipe and goes all over and does much devastation to your home. Can you pick which one is the right path of chaos? The answer is non. You may say you donít care for the protestant sect but it is weather you like it a foundation of your belief and similar to your belief which is like a brother religion. I am not arguing about true Christianity but the fake ones that have helped cause such hypocrisy which you admit in a way but you are not stating it clearly out loud. You know we both error so taking religion into our own hands, just like taking the law into our own hands will not help us in the end. Do you take the law into your own hands? Are you above the law? Do you think you know better since you are in your 30ís, or new protestant sects that come out every year than priests that have 2000 years of information, experience, unity, democracy, etc which you, other sects, or I are not even close to? I do not think I am better but if you do then tell it to god. I know I know nothing and I have a long way to go, but I donít like that you think you are equal to saints or 2000 years of experience. I wish I was as good as those saints but to think that the saints are no better than you are not humble, but it seems you are putting yourself on the same pedestal as them, so back up.

Ok as for your questions
No one is perfect and we should strive to be. Not even the saints though they were worthy, so why should I feel content? Are you content, at ease at peace with god that you donít need to do more? NO and the same here. God gave us a brain we should use it to know what is going on. So many are feel they have the Holy Spirit but their views are opposite of yours. The Holy Spirit is with people who practice the faith and not just say they have faith.

No one can change the bible, and protestant should not ignore or misinterpret passages as they have admitted to for centuries, and keep doing still. Yes people can have a one on one with god, but the church is not their to be an middle man as you assume, so maybe you are what you are from lack of information or misinformation, and not because of being informed. The Holy Spirit gives you strength, but it will not do everything for you. You take responsibility and donít blame God or the devil. The Holy Spirit is not enough since it can not do everything for you; Christians need to use everything that Christ gives and not just one thing. You have to take action; you are responsible for your actions.

ok? If you want the official stance you have to ask an official source. lol

ďThe Holy Bible, and more specifically the New Testament, does not contain all the doctrine and teachings of Christ. The Church, which has produced the Bible, does not completely submit itself to only one of the epiphenomena of its life, even if it is the most authoritative one, the Holy Scriptures. An important part of the teachings and doctrine of Christ continues to be present and handed down to the generations of Saints through other means and ways that are also part of the life of the Church, a life in the Holy Spirit. One of these ways and means through which Christ's truth comes to us is the doctrine of the Holy Fathers of the Church.ď Since you donít read links then no more links for you as well. lol

But honestly you have to admit that you donít know much about orthodoxy like most. I want to know where the backbone of the protestant church is, since it seems to bend over backwards a lot of cultural traditions. If if was not for heretics like the catholic church the protestant church would not be made, and that with a very long list of other reason is not a good way to start off Gods church since the foundation ins not a rock as the bible has said.

One major difference is worshiping which itís odd that the protestant church made Sunday school which takes kids away from church services. I donít understand that, and even the teacher misses out on the service.


Spade====
Stop the assumption. I spent a lot of time replying to you and you still complain. You are acting like a bottomless pit or black hole since whatever you want it just isnít enough, ever! Sometimes I donít bother reading everything you say since you just keep going with outrageous things which almost make it seem you are playing games.

Can you drive a war with only a wheel? Yes the Holy Spirit did help, but you have to admit that experts were present when making the NT. the same thing with the OT before Christ came how the ancient Greek hired I forget the humbler now hmmm was it 31, 61, 91, well a lot of Jewish translators to translate the old testament individually the entire OT. That is the official OT the Septuagint of the Orthodox Church and has been for most of Christianity since mistranslation or editing is not present unlike the NT which as you see many variations.

ďAccording to Philo, the authors of the Bible were in a condition of "possession" by the Spirit of God, who was just using these authors as blind instruments. A better view is the so-called "dynamic view" of the cooperation between man and the Holy Spirit in the case of the Bible. In any case of "synergy" (cooperation) between God and man, God leads, and man follows; God works, and man accepts God's work in him, as God's coworker in subordination to Him. So it is with divine inspiration in the case of the Bible: the Holy Spirit inspires, and the sacred author follows the Holy Spirit's injunctions, utilizing his own human and imperfect ways to express the perfect message and doctrine of the Holy Spirit.

In this sense, we can understand possible imperfections in the books of the Bible, since they are the result of the cooperation between the all-perfect and perfecting Divine Author, the Spirit, and the imperfect human author. Biblical textual criticism is completely normal and acceptable by the Orthodox, since they see the Bible in this light. Nothing human is perfect, including the Bible, which is the end product of human cooperation with the divine Spirit.Ē
Hence the other fail safes, while others throw the nest and gamble their souls. I hope you got your answer but if you want more go ask someone else since talking to you is like in one ear out the other, since even when I agree completely with you in one post you go all out and misunderstand completely which that is insane.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
I've always thought that the Bible was perfect, Warsong.

2 Timothy 3:16. Doesn't say it's perfect though - but I still believe it is.
(Perfect in the sense that... well nvm. Really long posts aren't popular for reading. *hint hint*)

samw3

Member

Posts: 542
From: Toccoa, GA, USA
Registered: 08-15-2006
Warsong, Please try again with concise answers. One for each question and please quote my question before your response.

In the mean time I will wade through your novel of a post.

First to recap my previous questions:
Do you have peace with God? If yes, how do you know?
Are you like the "wise and learned" having the things of God hidden from you, or are you like the "little children"?
Do you believe God communicates with his children? with you? how?

And a couple in response to your recent post:
Do you believe that a "saint" can change what is written in the Bible if the church approves the change?
Do you believe a person can have a one-on-one type relationship with God?
In your opinion, what is the role of the Holy Spirit?

------------------
Sam Washburn

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by samw3:

In the mean time I will wade through your novel of a post.

Not to derail the thread, but that was hilarious.




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Sorry. One reason why I donít like posting much since I sometimes try to explain it well which leads to long posts. lol I am conditioned to write a lot. I blame college :'( lol
Now you want them direct? If you are looking for answers I am not you man, I state my point of view. I think I gave you enough explanations despite oddly enough you don't notice, but I am not here to talk about me. Which is why I personally don't want you asking me which is why I direct you to someone else.

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited January 30, 2007).]