And since the other view of Hanukkah is predominantly known because of Judaic fanaticism to keep that side alive here is another side of the story to balance things out.
Antiochus IV Epiphanes was the king of the Syrian region. The region was dictated by the Persians and then Alexander the great beat them and took over their territories and still had to defend against Persian attacks.

After the Jewish high priest died Simon III his son Onias III took and he gave his power to his brother Jason as priest. Jason went to the King and gave him a bigger tribute and asked to make the county more democratic and he helped the new priest build gymnasiums, cultural anti theocracy registration, etc. They didn't want the old Jewish theocracy but a more fair social and political class to be fair. Many Jews hated it since many were going to the gymnasiums during the week than the temple, and found that working out was evil despite they were getting physically fit and conditioned.

Fanatically religious Jews didn't like it, and they lusted for power. His other brother Menelaus took over as priest by outbidding him. As you see they adapted Greek names since many of them favored it. They had a civil war to decide who the rightful priest is. Menelaus won, became tyrannical, civil war broke out against the Jews fanatical and the moderates that favored Greek law, Menelaus won again, he stole gold from the temple and sold it, Onias III found out and wanted to expose his treachery but Menelaus with the Governor Andronicus quickly killed him. Many Jews, Greeks, and the King were saddened by the event.

So far Hanukah seems interesting how the Priests kill other priests.

Rumors went around that the King died and Jason came back and found an opportunity again to fight Menelaus and the majority of the people were with him. Menelaus and his men fled to the King which he was alive and the priest said that Jason invaded and got support by the Kings enemies in Egypt. The King was angry after hearing the high priest that his loyal servants betray him with a very treasonous act, they always kill each other, was upset at his loss against the Romans, and his postponement of taking over Egypt. So the king went to put down the rebellion with the help of the Jews and Jason fled and became an exile. While Menelaus helped the king take gold from the temple for the trouble in a way. Despite both Jason and Menelaus being art of the Ancient Greek party they were still rivals.

If it was not for Jewish great sins the king would have not went their. If Jason won there would things would have been good but when the fanatical tyrannical Menelaus won things went bad. So the Jews have it backwards which in fact is a rebellion that started the persecution, instigated by fanatical sacrilegious Jews in control.

The problems seem never ending with Jews and Menelaus persuaded the King to help bring everyone together and follow Greek rule. So later on they were told to make animal sacrifices, which are still done today by thanking God their thanksgiving turkey. Mattathias and his sons refused and gathered a revolted which they became known as the Maccabees, with other Jews with them. The king again dealing with the Jews never ending civil wars sent an inexperienced commander to stop the revolt, and also sent a letter saying when he the king his son will be in charge and that they will go back to their old customs, and soon after the commander failed to stop the revolt against Mattathias. The commander sent a letter to negotiate with corrupt Menelaus on a settlement on the situation. Menelaus ignored him and made his own demands, and Menelaus himself went to the king The commander later found out that Menelaus despite being the Jewish leader became rich off of stealing from his temples and properties especially form the Maccabees, decided it was best to kill him for his treachery to both Jews and to the King.

The Maccabees took over and got rid of the power hungry cabalist liberal priests, and purified their temple which is what Jews celibate but nothing about burning candles since that's just a myth. But the other thing is that they also say it was a victory against the Greeks which was not utterly true and seems racist of them which all the kings didn't treat others like that and others didn't have arguments, and not even the king of that region was to blame since he mainly did what the ruling powers wanted to keep order, and let alone Greeks didn't seem to be the issue but Jews that wanted Greek laws which have been distorted by fanatical priests. Kind of like how fanatical Christians distort god's law and atheists use to that prove they are right that Christianity is violent which is insane. It's a shame that the Jews hurt themselves to be more Christian. The king of the region didn't seem to be a good one that did not think things though well, and when his son took over let them do what they want, but 65 years later under their own rule the Maccabees crucified 800 Pharisees and cut the throat of their wives and children while they watch. There is nothing more deathly than wolves in sheep clothing.

*********************************
Even the Ancient Greek culture that they also argue about was evil was accepted over time in many ways, and also helped Christianity grow. Some Jewish historians admit that they are indented to the ancient Greek culture to have many good things which they never had before despite they attack. Christianity and people in today's society in the proper rules and laws are influenced by the Ancient Greeks it seems, and to have a holiday that attacks Christianity and laws of the America and many countries seem insane. America was a Christian country or more like a Christian/Ancient Greek which even the founding fathers admitted, and not a Christian/Judeo country as many echo now unknowingly. Even the southerners have reconstructed the Parthenon and want to make the colossus of Rhoads for people to remember where they came from than going.

"The motivation of the Hasmonean (Maccabees) revolt has often been misunderstood. It has been contended that this revolt came in protest to the process and progress of Hellenization in Judaea, but this is patently not the case." "Jewish hellenizers were actually the ones who instigated the persecution.(9) Moreover, the Hasmoneans (Maccabees) themselves quickly adopted Hellenistic mores"� Lee Levine "Judaism and Hellenism in Antiquity"
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0411/is_n2_v46/ai_19680321/pg_4

Josephus comments on the 800 crucified by Jews, which maybe the fantasy 8 candle are the numbers of Pharisees they killed. Their kids got death while kids now get a present for every day to go against Christmas.
With a twisted culture like that it's scary they Christians are being attacked again.
Other Jews that didn't want to practice Judaism were murdered.
Hanukkah was made by Pharisees and is not considered God ordained by Scriptures.

So why attack LIE?

"In fact, Jewish Rabbi Daniel Kohn, in answer to the question, "Is the miracle of Chanukah made up?" stated that the whole concept of the miracle of the oil was indeed untrue." "The rabbis may have deliberately lied about the military origins and Hellenistic causes of Hanukkah in order to maintain the holiday but shifted its focus to God and more religious themes out of a greater need for survival!..."

Another Rabbi Harry Sky is about resisting assimilation. "When those guys stood up to Hellenization, they stood up to assimilation."
Obviously the guy is deluded in more ways than one since the ancient Greeks were not the issue as the other rabbi stated, and assimilation is pushes for all of us to act like in the US while they are thought not to be tolerant while other Christians kiss their asses. The point of the US is to assimilate to be more Christian. Kind of odd that many Jews that killed the ones that wanted to ancient Greek laws also wanted it and even took many customs and even the Jewish Maccabees names were Greek which even that was not allowed in Jewish culture/religion. Christ changed the names of some of his apostles to Greek and roman names. They resisted absorbing knowledge and justice but want to force it on others and themselves is that they didn't learn from history which is why they change it to not learn it seems.

"will to Jewishness first or to Israel's survival first"
So obviously the ends justify the means and Christians support what is not in not Christian when supporting people that take selfish actions it seems.

They tried to do the same with the Romans after a while but the Romans took control and didn't give mercy to anyone to anyone traitorous and crush them and exiled them.

You can't mix water with oil, the same with Christmas and Hanukah. They win by not assimilating or getting influence and for them to set their religious rule.

***
Christmas = united, good will to ALL men, Christ's birth, Christ's miracles
Hanukkah = divided, supremacy over others, Jews killing Jews, fake miracle

And they say Christmas is inclusive? please!
The legend of Hanukkah is just as it says a legend.
Legend= "a non historical or unverifiable story handed down by tradition from earlier times and popularly accepted as historical."
If a religion needs a lie to survive then what is that worth?
I don't know why "some" Christians support or believe it.

Hosea 4:14 "...a people without understanding will come to ruin!"

================
PS Don't complain if you have any question look them up first.
QUESTIONS ONLY WELCOMED! only if you look for the answers first. :P

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited December 20, 2006).]

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[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited December 20, 2006).]

Did you read the post and what questions do you have besides asking about Dreidel? :P With all this anti Christ documentary on TV here is something back on the other end of the spectrum which a more logical stance.

Ok I will only answer 3 questions about this post since I know many will have off beat questions again. :P lol

DON'T be LAZY again people!

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

If it does then you probably wouldn't celebrate Christmas either - would you?

quote:

---

Originally posted by warsong:
I don’t know why "some" Christians support or believe it.

---

Well, for starters, it is mentioned in the Bible. Whether or not that supports it or not is another debate, but it at least has roots that go back far enough that it's mentioned in John's gospel.

John 10:22

By the way, if could could tone down the language in your post-script, let's just try and keep these boards a little cleaner please.

Thanks!

--clint

Han=
Yes it is mentioned what time of the year it was for the Jews, it did not praised or supports it, and Christ criticized the priests. Take a look at your link again.

The time it accrued. Dedication means Hanukkah
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.

Christ comments how bad they act
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Christ was not celebrating their holiday them but doing his own business.

The holiday only includes the Jews and excused non Jews, which Christ was against that since that is why they have been stipend of spreading Christ’s words as a whole because of those traditions that they follow which puts more fuel to the fire. Their views are anti Christian which Christ comments on them not being part of his following.

Their calibration is about hated for others fueled by lies,
While Christianity is about love for others fueled by truth.

---
As to tone down, yes I agree but I said it since some don't seem to understand kindness which is why my last comment was like that. lol But yes I agree.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

quote:

---

Originally posted by warsong:
Han=
Yes it is mentioned what time of the year it was for the Jews, it did not praised or supports it, and Christ criticized the priests. Take a look at your link again.
*snip*
Christ was not celebrating their holiday them but doing his own business.

The holiday only includes the Jews and excused non Jews, which Christ was against that since that is why they have been stipend of spreading Christ�s words as a whole because of those traditions that they follow which puts more fuel to the fire. Their views are anti Christian which Christ comments on them not being part of his following.

---

Hold on. You're making too big of a jump there bud. Just because the Jews were "doing their own thing" and persecuting Jesus doesn't mean that what the Jews were doing was automatically bad. That would be like saying that because the Jews were celebrating Passover when they crucified Christ, that therefore Passover is t3h 3v1L -- far from it!

Keep in mind, I'm not defending the Feast of Dedication here -- I'm merely just saying that the logic you used there to support your argument is faulty.

There may be other reasons for not wanting to celebrate the Feast (as you've mentioned), but if you put in non sequitors and hasty generalizations like that, then you do a great disservice to your argument.

--clint

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

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The Truth Shall set you Free

2.

quote:

---

Originally posted by spade89:
hey,warsong i just had a quick question for you, why do you care whether hanukah is real or not and whether hanukah means killing or not? i didn't ask you this question because i disagree with you i asked you because i was curious, as christians why should we be concerned with other peoples religions ,and beliefs,and if we should why should we be concerned with specific religious beliefs like judaism or islamism?

---

That's what I'm thinking....

other eg (imho) = Lent, Ramadan, etc, etc....

Shoot...you could even get up tight about at least a handful of the other Jewish holidays which coincide with some manner of God's provision or Christ's attonement...only we as Christians would be looking back while Jews would be looking forward. And you've already posted on one aspect of Christmas' secularization.

3.
Exactly where are you getting your information?

A::
Your references to "gyms", "being fit", and the "thanksgiving turkey" seem a little short on history and more on assumption; drawing an apparent connection where none actually exist. The animal sacrifices in Jewish tradition are no where close to the reason we have turkey for Thanksgiving and Christmas...much less why we even have Thanksgiving. If you didn't know this I'm surprised. If you did know this, why the heck did you say something about "thanksgiving turkey" relating to sacrifices if it didn't apply!?

B::
I see a story of a certain time of Jewish history. The only reference to Hannukah I see in your story is your comment of the 800 Pharisees vs 8 candles which is a BIG stretch (you commented "maybe" aka "you assume"). As it stands you've made a lot of assumptive conclusions based on scantily presented evidence (and initial googling does not support your claims in the least). As it stands you have slurred a Jewish custom, attempted to pull separate or perhaps slighly related comments or events together simply because there are common terms or maybe an appearance of common trends. You have a bias toward the Greeks, a bias against the Jews, you pick and choose the points to connect....

C::
Now...if I happen to have misread what you wrote, here are somethings you can do to make yourself a little clearer to us "less educated"....

1.
Spell and grammar check. Even a small % of additional accuracy in this regard will do wonders. Part of this is re-reading your posts about 5-10 times to make sure the flow is as good as you can get. A quick spell check is google, just do a search on the word in question, 99 out of 100 it will give you a corrected suggestion.

2.
Cite your sources.

And I might suggest:
3.
NEVER make a conclusion which isn't supported by the evidence unless you specificially state something to the effect of, "I think this means".

Trust me, I know a bs conclusion when I see it. I spent 3 years with some of the best minds in the state coming up with statements and responses on what were essentially topics picked out of a hat. And I've spent more years than I care to count in discussions like this with people far more likely to spin off to outer space. I've also learned from personal experience that flimsy is a waste of time.

***** see after the p.s. *****

I can enjoy the occasional historical assertion, what I won't abide is staunch conclusions without proof. Hannukah being evil is a pretty staunch conclusion, especially in light that you've (apparently) set it up as something worse than the other dozen or so world-wide recognized holidays. Or is this the topic for the week and should we be expecting another such post in March-April re: Lent or the secularization of Easter, or in September re: Ramadan?

At the end of the day what are you going to do about it? Not practice or recognized Hannukah? Wooptidoo! I figured you already weren't recognizing it.
You going to run for elected office to get it banned? You going to stand on the street corner and shout to the world that it's evil? (be careful how you answer that one) What exactly were you planning on accomplishing with this?

Side note:
Though I happened to have the time today to respond, with the amount of inconsistancies in your initial posts I have to wonder if (I forget who atm) isn't right...that you are trolling. Your comments on being lazy or X # of responses doesn't help the impression.

p.s.
If the confusion evident in your posts is the result of being hasty or having limited time in which to formulate a response or author a post, then don't post. Wait till you have the time, or *gasp* make a shorter post.

**************
Now

quote:

---

Han
I know what you mean but I didn’t mean it like that. Jesus was a Jew and Jesus was religious but he didn’t partake in the feast. It’s not about when but why. Just because mentioned that the NT mentioned it doesn’t mean it supports it, for Christ to insult the priests on that particular day at the particular place doesn’t help the feast if you read the entire part. So in the end commenting that the NT comments about it as a reference of what time it was is irrelevant, which is what I am saying.

---

You got pretty close to some good analysis.

1. Jesus was a Jew, and Jesus did observe other Jewish customs and holidays. Such recognition has been stated specifically in the Bible, e.g. Passover. Granted the Passover dealt directly with Jesus' work here on Earth, thus a participatory reference could be expected. A lack of such reference to Jesus' specific participation in a Jewish custom or holiday might indicate the lack of that custom's relevency to the world post-Christ.

2. There would be no real reason to indicate the Feast's occurence in light of the lack of reference by Jesus to it.
I.e. if Jesus' statements neither approved nor disapproved of the custom, why then was it referenced?
It might be important as a subtle trigger used by Jesus to speak truth in light of the Feast or in light of the probably present Pharisees. It might also be just the author's way of placing and timing Jesus' presence or perhaps it's merely part of the author's writing style.
I don't see that superficial examination of the passage will tell you either way. Guesstimating why the Feast reference was included would require analysis of the author and the situation layout or history - were Pharisees likely present, what was the Feast really for, does the Bible speak of Jesus recognizing or participating in similar non-attonement related customs, what is the author's writing style and how did he convey other similar instances?

Ultimately, for me it is an interesting side note. If the Jews want to celebrate Hannukah, fine by me. I won't, it's not my custom, I don't see a need for it. I expect to be able to celebrate Christmas and by extension, in this country, I should be able to allow Jews to celebrate Hannukah.

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited December 21, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited December 21, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by NetCog:

2. There would be no real reason to indicate the Feast's occurence in light of the lack of reference by Jesus to it.
I.e. if Jesus' statements neither approved nor disapproved of the custom, why then was it referenced?
It might be important as a subtle trigger used by Jesus to speak truth in light of the Feast or in light of the probably present Pharisees. It might also be just the author's way of placing and timing Jesus' presence or perhaps it's merely part of the author's writing style.
I don't see that superficial examination of the passage will tell you either way. Guesstimating why the Feast reference was included would require analysis of the author and the situation layout or history - were Pharisees likely present, what was the Feast really for, does the Bible speak of Jesus recognizing or participating in similar non-attonement related customs, what is the author's writing style and how did he convey other similar instances?

---

I interpret John's note about the Feast's taking place to provide a context for the Jews' question: "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Since the Feast of Dedication celebrated the last time the Jews kicked the foreign rulers out, it seems that the question they're asking is, "Are you the one who's going to kick the foreign rulers out, like the Maccabees did? Will you bring about the fullness of what we are celebrating this week?"

That's my 186 cedis.

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it's pronounced "tonics"

Spade
Well many reasons why. You have to know a little bit of everything to know what is going on in the world. They can not be Christians with a celebration like that, if they keep following it. Some Christians support it and as the bible says to preach Christ's words to everyone, but when they have a holiday like that it is harder to do. Praising it is contradictory to Christianity. Even Christ says not to follow lies and not to follow man made traditions which the feat goes against Christianity and their own beliefs. It is used against Christians during Christmas. I have seen Christians in here support or at least present the other side as if it was fact despite there is a lot of evidence against it. If anything maybe we should say Merry Christmas in society to Jews and non Jews despite it being insulting or not but that is your beliefs. I see Muslims say selam malekum when greeting which I am not offended, or a Jew telling me to have a happy Hanukkah and so we should also do the same to say Merry Christmas to everyone, including Jews despite Christ is considered blasphemous to them as their feat is blasphemous to us. I am not saying all the celebrations are bad.

Even Jews try to sell that holiday as a great one for Christians to follow which Christians should not fall into that trap. There is more to explain but you are responsible to know what goes on. I see Christians partaking in the feast sometimes and putting on the yamaka and do other religious customs on the feasts. Even me partaking in any other religious ceremony goes against my beliefs since it acknowledges theirs and weakens our faith which many do not understand that.

Just because your goal is straight ahead doesn’t mean you have to ignore the things from the sides that are trying to stop you from reaching your goal.

Tonnyx
Yes they wanted someone to fight and kill others and Christ didn’t do that. They wanted someone to start a war and it was not Christ’s way “But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.”
“Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.” No way would Christ like an inclusive celebration but wants everyone equal than divided.“
Christ wants people united and not divided and to follow things that encourage division is not the way to Christ.

Netcog
There is a lot to it that a simple explanation. Just because he was there doesn’t mean he was celebrating it. If you celebrate Easter or Christmas do cause a commotion in the church to the point the priest wants to kill you? Is that showing support? They should follow Christ than the celebration and what better time that that time and place. Even Christ says not to follow mans traditions which the priests made up that things up and you can’t honestly say that Christ would support that. Do you honestly think Christ would support that holiday knowing what happened which consists of lies, discrimination, fanaticism, murder, lust, deception, corruption, etc?
What you do is dangerous sometimes to narrow particular parts of the bible to prove a point while ignoring the majority of the bible. Christ even comments to the Pharisees again in another part with just as harsh words.

The other Jewish holidays are not as anti Christian or that much or a lie so it’s not as important to comment on. If you don’t know history you will be doomed to repeat. You have to understand why thing are the way they are. To look forward to you to know how to watch out what is trying to take you down. I bet you didn’t even most of the things I have stated in this post like many do not so don’t come across as a smart *** . I find it hard to believe you even read the post since you can see that many of the sources are from Jewish sources. But how will you know since as you said you don’t look at the past and since that’s what helps. If you keep on walking forward ignoring things around you expect a kick in the head sooner or later, and that isn’t an insult but the reality of it.

Are you saying that they didn’t build gymnasiums? Are you saying they just kill animals and not eat them? Are you paying attention that I was not talking about Jewish traditions when talking about gyms and sacrifices? Are you paying attention or instigating?
About the 800 Pharisees and 8 candles was a coincidental joke which I didn’t say it was true. You are bias against truth and it shows, I think you are the viscously close minded person here which you try to win arguments by attacking me. And again since you are too ignorant to pay attention as I said many times quick derailing the posts and if you want to talk about be you do it at pm. Insult or not that’s the facts, and you have been warned many times of your persistent ignorance which you keep doing, which would explain a lot of why your replies are weak. You are weak in your convictions so I expect nothing more from you.

Again everything is quoted by Jewish sources backed up by Jews, their opposition of the Greeks, and other sources. Your sloth will not escape judgment. Your assumptions are as always as the phrase goes AssUme.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
[URL=http://cobbleware.com/gbax/gamasumo.zip]My original game

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited December 22, 2006).]

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The Truth Shall set you Free

quote:

---

Originally posted by spade89:
we shouldn't single out any specific religion,we should love all of them just the same,without any discrimination,that's the christian way.

---

"16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

Religion is an ideology, a rule of life for some. We have to love people but not their beliefs. Christ does not respect things that are bad. Do you love the devil's view? Do you love Satanism? Do you love voodoo? Satanism is banned in some Europe countries since there reports of occult murders, but you say we should love that the same?

When you love, respect, accept what is bad then what is good is diminished. When people are good to evil then they are automatically evil to good.

Let them do what they want if it doesn't affect you, but don't say you have to love what they believe. Or as some say love the sinner but not the sin.

the feast seem to be a lie, and to lie is a sin
"3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just."

"1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows."

for your information love is the most important word in my vocabulary ,

incase you haven't read the bible ,jesus teaches us to love all mankind,even our enemies and persecutors right along those who don't follow our religion, and I DID NOT SAY LOVE THEIR BELIEFS,I SAID LOVE THEM,i am a human just as them and i have no authority to judge them,that is god's job,
these people are sinners and they are not to be judged by you ,christ died on the cross so that people who unknowingly sin may repent,and these people don't know the christian way, and we the christians are suppose to guide them and show them the way.

whatever these people do,and i mean whatever you have no right to discriminate them or single them out and ridicule them,that is just not the christian way,these people are the creation of god,not you.only he has the right to judge them and punish them,you are not a superior to any other human,you are a son of adam just like every human,and no son of adam shall judge his own brother.

and why do you keep accusing me of being a satanist,a voodoo and all that,
i don't get why you make personal accusations,we both know that when i said love this people i meant love them,i said nothing about loving their religion and beliefs.

and warsong incase you don't know it is actually possible to love all of humanity without judging them.if you skipped parts of the bible i think it's time you read the parts you skipped.

and i didn't say let them do what they want as long as it doesn't affect you i said guide all who don't belive in christ,i didn't say leave them alone,and yes warsong as hard as it may be for you to accept christ's way is to love the sinner and not the sin.

if you are a follower of christ you'll follow in his footsteps,and christ certainly didn't discriminate sinners,he loved them,no matter what their sin jesus loved them,jesus stood against all form of hate,

remember mary magdalen,she was a sinner and she was outcasted ridiculed and
judged by others just like you are doing to jewish people now,and only christ embraced her ,loved her and showed her the truth,if you are a christian that is the thing to do.

and you say that no servant can serve to masters, well exactly my point
who do you serve jesus or your own emotion and hatered towards others?

you also say if you are good to evil then you are evil to good,
well warsong please read the bible. as jesus said what is the satisfaction in loving only those who love you.

Luke 6:32
If you [merely] love those who love you, what quality of credit and thanks is that to you? For even the [very] sinners love their lovers (those who love them)

Matthew 5:46
For if you love those who love you, what reward can you have? Do not even the tax collectors do that?

and yes warsong ,god hates those who reject his son(jesus christ),but it is up to him to judge them and up to us to accept jesus and follow in his footsteps.

there are two choices here warsong either be persecuted and love your persecutors or persecute and judge others.

♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠ϖ 4;♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠ 824;♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠
and on another note PLEASE DO NOT TWIST MY WORDS.you are really good at twisting words,are you involved in polics in any ways?
♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠ϖ 4;♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠ 824;♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠♠

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The Truth Shall set you Free

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The Truth Shall set you Free

The information was not just for you since some people believe that, so it was for others are well. Some people say some strange things sometimes, some even say that it’s ok for a dog to go to church for the services. :| So need for you to argue because of a lack of communication. And your comments are generally what I said. Good thing you reread your reply and think it’s wrong and so not reread my reply since you are twisting my words lol.

As for politics in a way I am, and I agree that they do twist words around but so do marketers, news, entertainment, some religions and historians which this topic is just gave one example of how people hear the other side of the story which doesn’t stick well but many eat it up.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

ok,maybe you missunderstood my last post so let me re-phrase:

i said stuff like "if you are a follower of christ you'll follow in his footsteps,and christ certainly didn't discriminate sinners...." in my last post and i didn't meen to criticize your devotion to christianity,and when i said stuff like "incase you haven't read the bible,..." i didn't mean that you have no knowlege of the bible. that is why i said my last post was overly-spoken in the process of proving my point i felt like i offended you by criticizing the basis of your belief and that was not my intention,my intention was to show you what i see as the truth that's why i made quotes from the bible. i don't believe in saying something and not meaning it i still stand with what i said my last post was a mere apology to the criticizm i put upon you even though you criticize my belief i shouldn't do the same.

and what i said was a light joke is the part in ♠'s not the other stuff,and warsong,this maybe a whole new topic but you keep confusing religion and politics,and ideology and belief. there is a big difference between those.

Religion is the adherence to codified beliefs and rituals that (generally) involve a faith in a spiritual nature and a study of inherited ancestral traditions, knowledge and wisdom related to understanding human life. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to faith as well as to the larger shared systems of belief.

Belief is usually defined as a conviction of the truth of a proposition without its verification; therefore a belief is a subjective mental interpretation derived from perceptions, contemplation(reasoning), or communication.

politics: 1 a : the art or science of government b : the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy c : the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government.

ideology: 1 : visionary theorizing
2 a : a systematic body of concepts especially about human life or culture b : a manner or the content of thinking characteristic of an individual, group, or culture c : the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program

see the difference,ideology is theorizing while religion is believing.
again,i don't mean that you don't belief.

anyways that's not the topic and i still stand against discrimination,all men are born equal, Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and i see no reason other than prejudice to single out a specific group of people why don't you talk about other people why a specific group of people? when it comes to spending eternity in hell,i don't think that i would want a certain group of people to be saved and the rest be left in the fire,i don't think there should be a 1st class and second class of people to save,i don't think that 's right, i think that is definetly not christianly. the question is do you?

and why do you keep talking about bringing a dog to church? we are talking about people here not dogs??

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The Truth Shall set you Free

quote:

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Originally posted by spade89:
and why do you keep talking about bringing a dog to church? we are talking about people here not dogs??

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OLD topic!

And to ANY of you guys, don't even think about resurrecting it!

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[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited December 30, 2006).]

Why can't I bring a dog to church? (sorry, Lava )

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Matthew(22:36-40)"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Whose Son Is the Christ

quote:

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Originally posted by Lazarus:
Why can't I bring a dog to church?

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You could, before, but Warsong's priest got bit.

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[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited January 01, 2007).]