"The Antikythera mechanism (Greek: O μηχανισμός των Αντικυθή�ων transliterated as O mēchanismós t�n Antikythēr�n) is an ancient mechanical analog computer (as opposed to digital computer) designed to calculate astronomical positions. It was discovered in the Antikythera wreck off the Greek island of Antikythera, between Kythera and Crete, and has been dated to about 80 BC."
"Another reconstruction is on display at the American Computer Museum in Bozeman, Montana."
http://www.answers.com/topic/antikythera-mechanism

"The real significance of this is just how sophisticated the device was – much more complex than a modern wristwatch," says Edmunds. "It is beautifully designed and must have come from a long tradition of making these kinds of devices."
"It may be significant that the only example we have has come from a shipwreck and so couldn't have been melted down," Edmunds says, adding that the only examples of bronze statues from the same period also come from shipwrecks."
http://www.newscientisttech.com/article/dn10680-enigmatic-relic-was-an-eclipse-calculator.html

"The findings suggest that Greek technology was far more advanced than previously thought. No other civilization is known to have created anything as complicated for another thousand years.

Professor Edmunds said: "This device is just extraordinary, the only thing of its kind. The design is beautiful, the astronomy is exactly right. The way the mechanics are designed just makes your jaw drop."
"Professor Edmunds said: "It does raise the question what else were they making at the time. In terms of historic and scarcity value, I have to regard this mechanism as being more valuable than the Mona Lisa."
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/061130/0189954.html

Most things that were made of bronze were taken away from invaded and melted and did not care about how valuable the things were, kind of like the 7th wonder of the world the colossus or rodes was taken by invaders and used to make weapons of war. Also their are probably more amazing things but the library of Alexandria was burned down, but some things accidentally made it though to us. As novelist Author C. Clark said that the Greeks would made it to space 1000 years ago if it was not for Christianity and turks, but I would have to disagree in a way and say Romans and fake Christians lol But the guy Forget thats it was them that help spread the religion since Christ knew they were advanced in their laws and many things in the bible have been said by the Ancient Greek Philosophers. Makes me wonder if they has a real mechanical Robot (Talos) as they first mentioned it but some consider that it might be a mechanical device like a big construction machine most likely torn apart to be used again for weapons of war. http://english.pravda.ru/science/mysteries/84374-0/

Maybe when the people that had the mechanical device were mad that their ship sunks but their loss is our gain in understanding or else it would have been lost forever.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

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Then I can laugh even harder when someone tells me "humans evolved".

quote:

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No other civilization is known to have created anything as complicated for another thousand years.

As novelist Author C. Clark said that the Greeks would made it to space 1000 years ago if it was not for...

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NetCog: Maybe they would laugh with you... pyramids and cities have nothing to do with evolution.

Makes me wonder if liberals and neo-cons want future to be that people can marry their pets but some have already done so, any crazy thing is possible it seems.

Anyway the point was that people back then were just as smart as and even smarter than people in today's society. They knew their limits and had the saying "everything to moderation" which Christ later on said, but in today’s society it's everything in excess and that greed is good. Technology back then was to help and make them think, technology today is to make people lazy and not think lol.

Anyway many other thing were made back then like the flame thrower, steam engine, toilets, electricity, light bulbs, modern medicine, music, art, music, philosophy, advanced math, etc that has not been discovered for 2000 years and some other things have still not been discovered and perplex many historians and scientists lol. Also the fact that many things that were good back then are not so good now from art, music, medicine, etc and became worse. It’s almost as if we are de-evolving the more we have technology do things for us. For example Paris Hilton.lol

Even the modern day Pyramid in Las Vega that the build tried to be as accurate to the ones in Egypt but they still messed up the alignment they admitted even with all that modern day equipment. :-o

Also the fact that many thing were not brought back or taken to further use since they knew that it would cause more problems than good kind of like the Olympics sine they see how people become barbaric and turned away form what is important. lol

Some even call Socrates a Christian before Christianity was around, and they have done many progressive things, which again would prove Author C. Clark wrong. lol

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited December 01, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
[QUOTE]No other civilization is known to have created anything as complicated for another thousand years.

As novelist Author C. Clark said that the Greeks would made it to space 1000 years ago if it was not for...

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Wow. If we didn't waste all that time on the Dark Ages I'd be typing this post directly from my thoughts. I read that the ancient Greeks also invented the first vending machine ~2100 years ago (no Coke, just holy water ) With all the advancements in the last century or two, I guess we've finally got back on track.

NetCog: Maybe they would laugh with you... pyramids and cities have nothing to do with evolution.[/QUOTE]

Yes - he's saying the evolution model of humans being really dumb and gradually getting smarter is laughable when we see that we actually started out incredibly intelligent(thanks to God) and lost most of that(thanks to God, although man caused it with his sin) intelligence which we are now just beginning to get back.

Of course, that's only going to make sense if you accept that we did not evolve, and you think we did - so it's actually a moot point.

Those pyramids are incredible! You gotta wonder how in the world they built them so precisely.

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
Well, the people who built those amazing things had never heard of your god, so religion doesn't equal intelligence.

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And in case you weren't aware, the Jews were slaves of the Egyptians that built a couple of their big cities that were used as tombs for the Egyptian kings. Granted -- the Jews likely weren't the ones who specifically built the Great Pyramid of Giza, but they were certainly quite involved in a number of their great construction projects.

All this to say, I'm pretty sure the Egyptians had heard of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob considering at one point they had enslaved the entire Jewish nation.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cheesestorm:
Wow. If we didn't waste all that time on the Dark Ages I'd be typing this post directly from my thoughts. I read that the ancient Greeks also invented the first vending machine ~2100 years ago (no Coke, just holy water ) With all the advancements in the last century or two, I guess we've finally got back on track.

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[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited December 01, 2006).]

I posted in the religious forum a while ago which kind of explains what you deny in that Christian morals were practiced before Christ, which they were considered the smartest and even the apostles knew that Christianity would spread with them since Christianity was similar to what they acted out.
http://www.christiancoders.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000233.html

Also that people though out time that are smart have acted in a more moral manner than people that have not. More doctors are religious, the great philosophers. This is not the movies to have evil masterminds. But yes religion does not equal intelligence but acting more moral Christian does help balance out the person to be able to be smarter. For example listening to chanting/classical vs rap/rock, their have been studies to show people that are religious and listen to chanting/classical are smarter than people that listen to rap or rock. If you like I’ll fine that link for you too.

****PS. They also knew that the world was round over 2000 years ago too and were almost precise in calculation to how big the earth was. :-o Now that’s amazing.****

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

Flavius Cassiodorus: "The Sun...seems to have lost its wonted light, and appears of a bluish colour. We marvel to see no shadows of our bodies at noon, to feel the mighty vigour of the Sun's heat wasted into feebleness, and the phenomena which accompany an eclipse prolonged through almost a whole year. We have had a summer without heat. The crops have been chilled by north winds, [and] the rain is denied."

Procopius : "...during this year a most dread portent took place. For the Sun gave forth its light without brightness...and it seemed exceedingly like the Sun in eclipse, for the beams it shed were not clear."

Lydus : "The Sun became dim...for nearly the whole year...so that the fruits were killed at an unseasonable time."

Michael the Syrian : "The Sun became dark and its darkness lasted for eighteen months. Each day it shone for about four hours, and still this light was only a feeble shadow...the fruits did not ripen and the wine tasted like sour grapes."

More here and possible reasons for the darkness:

http://gchbryant.tripod.com/Articles/darkages0999.htm

That article doesn't mention it but there were concurrent uprisings of people at that time in China and Europe and historians note that many a civilization went downhill at the same time. Author C. Clarke's comment was based upon ignorance. It's become a modern myth that the Dark Ages were called that due to due the influence of Christianity causing the downfall of the Roman empire and that the "dark" referred to the loss of knowledge and the imposition of "superstition". Quite simply, it got cold and dark, crops failed, and the tribes of the north moved south...into the Roman empire.

Not to mention that MODERN science was largely due to Christian beliefs providing a framework. Although I've argued with some atheists who try to make the distinction that "science" in a very general sense has been around for a long time. That's a "no duh" observation but the modern methods definitely have a root in Christianity. Even many atheists knowledgeable about history will grudgingly admit that.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited December 01, 2006).]

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I just don't think our intelligence was any better or worse. Being safe with enough food is what gives people the time for inventions.

Apes can't build stuff like that, if we did evolve from "apes" then
A: the "apes" were smarter back then and thus the animal cousins got dumbed down while we advanced....that doesn't make sense.
B: apes today are only slightly smarter (because we can put them in zoos or protected preserves thus limiting the "survival fight" needed) while we humans have evolved at a slightly faster pace....which still precludes advanced mathematics and mechanics if we are "just now" getting there.

Neither one of those really follows the concept of "primitive to advanced", "simple to complex".

It used to be "getting there" was coming out of the dark ages, now it looks like we were much further along somewhere 2-3000 years ago, and there are other indications that "getting there" was even further back. Which keeps flying in the face of humans came from 'dumb' animals.

So if evolution is true, the time frame for 'dumb' to 'smart' keeps shrinking...potentially down to effectively a "leap" of intelligence for no obvious "normal" reason - "not normal" because it's not evidenced in any other animal, making humanity unique....thus an incredible roll of the dice or invalidating evolution in part or in total.

From a pure evolutionary mindset (blindness or clarity - reader's choice) that statement probably can't be made, but it sure seems like the trend is there for that statement to be made at some point.

For me there's no question, so it's just an academic discussion.

Yea and it does make me wonder just how far in advanced we might have been without those few hundred years of stepping back (for whatever reason)....or maybe it wasn't stepping back and that's just a modern myth.

*shrug*

another score for the spartans!
(well... I guess, greeks in general)

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Yes, I'm still better than you
Soterion Studios

Regardless this stuff is amazing! As for evolution, I think its a piece of baloney.

CheeseStorm: I realize you don't believe in Jesus, but I personally believe he gifts us with wisdom.

Warsong: Ah, now your talent for coming up with large amounts of information is put to good use, rather than flaming. Great information, quite fun too. On a side note, does that mean I'm stupid? I listen to rap. I'm Christian too. :Shows terrified face: But I also listen to audio books, and :Shows excited face: soundtracks!

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

as in the evolution, I'm still curious as to how we started talking about it. aren't the two entirely not related. The development of this device has nothing to do with the evolution of man... it was only 2000 years ago. there would have been no evolutionary change in that short period of time.
using this as a rebuttal towards evolution seems rather as a strawman.

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Yes, I'm still better than you
Soterion Studios

quote:

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Originally posted by Lazarus:
Yes - he's saying the evolution model of humans being really dumb and gradually getting smarter is laughable when we see that we actually started out incredibly intelligent(thanks to God) and lost most of that(thanks to God, although man caused it with his sin) intelligence which we are now just beginning to get back.

Of course, that's only going to make sense if you accept that we did not evolve, and you think we did - so it's actually a moot point.

Those pyramids are incredible! You gotta wonder how in the world they built them so precisely.

---

This is part of how we got on that, Arch.

that's like me saying water doesn't boil because I didn't see it boiling at 70 degrees Celsius. it proves nothing.

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Yes, I'm still better than you
Soterion Studios

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
yeah, okay, I admit it, I have a bias towards them.

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I know how you feel, I am a little biased towards the romans (being 25% italian helps ), I don't agree with everything about their culture, but I just think they were cool and their armies kicked butt too

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
as in the evolution, I'm still curious as to how we started talking about it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by NetCog:
I love examples such as this.
(Pyramids and the likely city ruins under the ocean around China or Japan are other examples.)

Then I can laugh even harder when someone tells me "humans evolved".

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Not singling you out NetCog, and I agree with what you're saying anyway

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it seemed like netcog just needed to get off on evolution. as if we don't have enough topics on it.

as with the spartans, sure I don't support all facets in their culture. I'm just recognizing them beyond uncivilized, military brutes.

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Yes, I'm still better than you
Soterion Studios

j/k

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:

as with the spartans, sure I don't support all facets in their culture. I'm just recognizing them beyond uncivilized, military brutes.

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Yeah, it's just that I hear alot of people say stereotypical remarks about the Romans

Like the spartans

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Anyway thats cool, but could you explain a bit more of what it did, and how it worked?

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

quote:

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Originally posted by Mene-Mene:
and kept slaves.

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Lol, not trying to pick apart what you said or anything, but EVERYONE had slaves in those days, and there's still slavery even today.

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well, okay, not really.

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Yes, I'm still better than you
Soterion Studios

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it fits well.

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Yes, I'm still better than you
Soterion Studios

Lava=====
You mean he helped rediscovered and defined some of out scientific system, but you have to agree with what Gump said as well.

Cheese =====
Enough food doesn't do that since look at Paris Hilton or her Greek boyfriends that don’t seem bright lol. It's a good society, culture, beliefs/values (religion) and a few other things that helps make people intelligent or wise. Socrates was a poor sculpture that did philosophy on the side but was considered to be one of the wisest. He worked on his body mind and soul today people work on how to make more money only and we have stupid invention like those infomercial that sell stupid things like steps for to climb on a beds or sofa lol. That's insane.

Well we can’t say that all humans are smart just like how we have savage tribes in Asia and Africa that think that the world is flat, and do the thing you said to run around hitting each other with sticks lol. If we take the most logical man now and the most logical man back then who would win? It’s that things have been distorted and people take for granted what others sat their and though it out to know why things are what they are while people not say why are they and don't know why they do what they do and many don't. For example the Greeks were smart and believe in God so should they be considered dumb from atheist even though atheist have everything they know from the help of them? As Christ said
"1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom" I think the Jews are still looking for a sigh since they were not smart enough to see. So which side do you stand on a sign or wisdom? If you look for signs all you will find is false prophets, if you look for wisdom then follow the wise that layer down the hard work so that you don’t have to work so hard, or is this another Paris Hilton example of now many take for granted and get spoiled? No offence buddy, I am just trying to force you to answer with my presentation. lol

Arch=====
Spartans were a military state. They were smart but had different use for their intellect which made them the most powerful army ever. All they mostly did was train would take war as the last resort sine they didn’t want to fight but perfect their skills. lol I know kind of odd but they had nothing to fear and didn’t feel as paranoid as the US to do preemptive strikes. so bring the question who is was more cruel people that train and never fight, or people that don’t and just press a button to wipe out more people that Spartans could in their entire existence? As for Rome it was a military empire that wanted to conquer and get more for hedonism, while Sparta was more of the opposite.

Mene=====
You bring a good example on how one person (nation or cultures) definition doesn't apply to everyone equally which is another example why the bible is mistranslated a lot by the majority. Your comments are not well thought or researched. Don't be an example of how the liberal schools sells BS to show how great BS is so don’t eat everything secular anti Christians feed you. Everyone knows they were ahead of their time so it's hard to think they were behind. The philosophers even comments about slavery how silly it was but their slaves were nothing like the slaves in the US.

"archaeologist Evangelos Mbeksis, who writes, lectures, and publishes facts about ancient Greece. What is shown in this article is that Hellas was the first place to seriously address the issue of institutionalized slavery, and the only culture to treat its slaves like human beings and not like mere chattel property. The cruelties inflicted upon the slaves of ancient Rome, the humbling indignities suffered by the slaves of the American South, the horrific and degraded conditions of the serfs of Czarist Russia, and the torture and mutilation that slave-owning Blacks inflicted upon their fellow Blacks in Africa, were completely unknown to the Greeks.

The main difference -- according to Professor Mbeksis --is that the Greek slave had "... much better future possibilities, more respect, more rights, and better monetary compensation than the serfs of the Middle Ages and Czarist Russia, the slaves of the ante-bellum American South, or the 'wage slaves' of more recent times.""

"The philosopher Pháedo, was brought to Athens as a slave, became a devout student of Socrates after gaining his freedom, and ultimately opened his own school of philosophy in Elis. Ménippus, of Gadara, in Syria, was a slave who was brought to Greece where he became wealthy. The majority of the town heralds, constables, and clerks of the city courts and accounting departments were slaves. Etc."

So are you a wage slave??? lol
In other words you are a bigger slave than they were and you have less freedom. The slaves can buy their own freedom to become rich and the majority can't say that in today’s society since over 85% are in debt and have to work for crappy pay to barely maintain what they have, and they have no choice, which brings up the question who is a bigger slave. lol But again the word slave is not the same meaning. Hard work got you wealth, hard work now get your money taken away by taxes to be the same place you are lol. They even had the saying "live Free or DIE" which is also the logo for that cool state New Hampshire which doesn't get pushed around like other states do. I like that state: D lol
Maybe I should PM you more info since we are again going off topic, if you still don't get it.

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited December 03, 2006).]

Warsong: I wouldn't be so fast as to assume some assumptions about my schooling, I admit it may not be the absolute best but it is a Christian digital/computer school. I'm still basically repeating what I've been told that the spartans were a bit more like the other world as for distasteful conditions. Again you are speeking of Greece in general, not Sparta. But I should be very interested in finding more about Greece and have also started to looking into getting some books from the library. Keep in mind I am not mature, or experienced due to the tenderness of my youth, for I as far as my wisdom reaches think that I am the youngest of this highly esteemed crowd. (Ok, so I got a bit carried away there, I like Narnia.) I would not go to assume that I am a paid slave for I have not known the employed life, nor do I desire it, but have looked onward to the employing life, and owning the ladder. In the tenderness of my youth I have not know the employed life, but have worked nonetheless, but not been employed, what I mean by this is I have not been obliged to work except to my parents of which we all are. I agree today's society is in debt, and it is sad for they think that they have what they have not. They trust what is not there. Agreed I would enjoy having more info, but I am straying off topic.

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

"It was designed to teach young Spartans how to steal food so as to be able to survive under harsh wartime conditions (6). It was, therefore, part of their training which, in addition to their barely adequate "Spartan" diet (7), inspired them to devise impromptu food-gathering survival skills that would be of life-saving value to them in the years to come. In spite of this, however, should the Spartan youth be discovered and caught, he was whipped and put on reduced rations. It was Plato who made this law, given to the Spartans by Lycurgus, well known among the Greeks."

And as you know Plato was also wise. One person may see suffering another may see it as training; they probably use to it and don't see it as suffering. For example a loving mother cares for her child to be happy and feeds it whatever it wants and doesn’t want to be considered a bad mother and wants her kid happy. The 4 year old kid becomes 200 pound from "caring" too much which in the end hurt the kid. The modern day boot camp or Special Forces training can be considered just as bad or far worse with not much positive outcome. We are no better to judge, but I think these attack on Christian countries that helped spread Christianity is another attack on how destroy the foundation of Christianity.

Sure Spartans were not a good in what other Greeks did but they were talented on their own endeavors. I did not agree to how they kill unhealthy babies’ right when they are born but it was a time of war and they could not take care of unhealthy babies or else their effort will be weakened and more of all of them would die. They calculated that the many outweigh the few and if they didn’t then they might have been dead and then you would never have heard about them as many other tribes around the world that are never heard about because of miscalculations that helped get themselves wiped out. Your school weather Christian or not can be affected by liberal society since this kind of mentality was not that much seen as negative when the society was more Christian 50 years ago. Read the link that I sent to cheese storm. http://www.christiancoders.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000233.html

One expert of the topic would be the historian Edith Hamilton’s books which I have some quotes in the link, and that book explains a lot of info you never hear about in school and corrects many misconception. I have a link to one of her books which someone sent me as a present, I feel guilty for not reading it all just like other books other have sent me. Lol

Maybe I should stop posting in CCN and catch up on my many books. lol

PS. I just found this out lol
"The word "slave" in Greek is "thoúlos." Literally translated it means "worker," or one required to perform "work" (thouléia) for another."
"They (slaves) could have a family, worked wherever they wished, and were free to carry weapons. Under such conditions, it should come as no surprise that some acquired more wealth than their masters." lol

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited December 03, 2006).]

quote:

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Arch=====
Spartans were a military state. They were smart but had different use for their intellect which made them the most powerful army ever. All they mostly did was train would take war as the last resort sine they didn’t want to fight but perfect their skills. lol I know kind of odd but they had nothing to fear and didn’t feel as paranoid as the US to do preemptive strikes. so bring the question who is was more cruel people that train and never fight, or people that don’t and just press a button to wipe out more people that Spartans could in their entire existence? As for Rome it was a military empire that wanted to conquer and get more for hedonism, while Sparta was more of the opposite.

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Yes, I'm still better than you
Soterion Studios

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

Let's say we have a village of geniuses with 200 IQ, but it's back in the Dark Ages. We give them dirty water to drink and steal their potatoes right before winter sets in. Then we sell off any valuables they might have. They're smart, honest, hard-working, moral people, but calculus and philosophy aren't going to be their biggest concerns. Now we transplant them into modern North America (or a similar place) or Ancient Greece. Now they'll have time to study and think about things they're interested in (even if they work as a sculptor or a burger-flipper).

Now the compromise: We've made more discoveries in the last century than the rest of human history combined, but we also have more obesity and Paris Hiltons than any other period. This is where I agree with you about people wasting their freedom, but I disagree that we are any smarter/dumber (I believe there have always been smart/dumb people). Just more advantaged.

that could have been caused by a large volcanic eruption spouting ash into the air which (if there was enough) would alter the weather by blocking out the sun slightly.

cool. 2000-year old computer...

Kent Hovind rocks. he's funny too.

i just love going around spouting anti-evolution arguments only it's not propaganda, laz. its true.

wow, a Warsong topic that hasn't started a flame war in the first 10 posts. j/k.

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that post was really cool ^
|
[|=D) <---|| me

And Kent Hovind does rock. My Dad said he was in jail for tax evasion though... not sure if that's true.

I'll tell ya, the IRS is out of control in this country. Man, I hate taxes.(In a non-denominational way...)

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

I guess it’s like the saying goes better to be a servant in heaven (slave in Greece) then rule hell (rich man in modern society). Lol Being rich now as Christ said doesn’t sound like a noble thing, but back then the rich did all the noble things and it was simpler to be rich and free. Can anyone say now that they can quit their job and do what they want? People that voted for Democrats helped increase the taxes with all those silly social programs they make.

Cheese=======
Obviously food is a factor is a factor but is one factor and not the main one. But Greece is know for being rocky and not as rich in food as other places like South Africa which didn’t have to deal with the cold and had plenty of animals to hunt but still did not snow much progress though out the millenniums. North Africa is a different story, since the Egyptians have knowledge but they lived for death and not life and made pyramids that took years to make just to bury someone. Well after Rome everything started to go down the drain even with the big crowds and plenty of food after Rome that is when things went really bad. And they were known for immoral and hedonistic life styles and did more damage than good. You might also say look at the things they did like aqueducts, buildings, etc but even then the rulers used Greek contractors to do the work (as some documentaries about Rome mention engineering), since they were part of Rome since they have been taken over, but Christianity was flourishing and expanding for the Greeks after the apostles came their despite they were hunted down and executed by Romans and Jews. It’s not so much that they belied in one god that they were hunted down since it was know that many ancient Greeks did believe in one God as the bible indicates as well then the apostle came their and saw the statue that said to “the unknown God”. They were hunted down for believing in a Jewish heretic which was Christ. Even the Romans didn’t want to bother with Christ but you know the rest of the story. In today’s society many Christians seem to give up easily, kid of like when Christ said to his apostle that he will deny him 3 times but people today don’t feel shame and deny all the time.

As the Spartan example I gave the culture trained the people in how to be, and the rest of Greece were trained to be conditioned to be proper people. The education was to make people proper and the rest fell in, now education is to learn how to get a job which people don’t know what to do and do whatever. It’s a big difference in ideology. You can say these past 100 years was great in the inventions but is the luxuries it makes worth it? Everything got polluted, people are more addicted to their material things, people are not wise but are smart to know how to use their VCR better than their grand parents, people are wage slaves, over 85% are in debt, and you call this progress? Even the food lost its taste and if you go to another country in the country side you will see a world of difference in taste and even then that is affected by the environment. It was that you can eat fish as much as you want a day every day, but now scientists say you can only eat fish at most 3 times a week or less because of the high mercury. Even pregnant women are not allowed to eat fish because of it. Is this progress, are people happier, healthier, and is the entire society wiser? Obviously not.

So why didn’t they progress with the steam engine, Olympics, electricity, etc? Some say because they knew the consequences, and were not driven by money, unlike today’s society that is driven by money and greed and don’t think about the consequences and many wonder why this or that bad thing happen more despite so much money has been given to research. Even heart disease was unheard of 100 years ago; divorce was rare 50 years ago, etc.

It took 2000 years to reinvent the material things they did, but that is not important as to how long will it take us to be just as wise, free, and spiritual as them which is much harder? Maybe another 2000 years for us to catch up? It also took 2000 years for people to live as long as they did, which you have people like Plato or Socrates that lived in their 80’s and some even far older. So the invention thing was the easy compared to the other things. Christ knew that Christianity will spread like wild fire if given to them but Christ didn’t want to give it to them first since Christ said first to the Jews and then to the Greeks since Christ said that he came to help the spiritually sick people first. I don’t know if you agree but many atheists want to deny everything of history, attack, and distort to prove their own side.

Well that’s the general idea of it.

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited December 04, 2006).]

So I'm saying they had the same brain-power as us (and everyone else in those 2000 years), but probably used it more effectively, like that awesome no-taxes thing you said. I don't think we are morally superior or healthier... well, I don't know much about ancient Greece but I do know we have kids lighting themselves on fire to have a popular video on the internet. >_<

The thing is how did they use it more efficiently compared to people today? People today go with more secular views (even Christians) which they don’t know it and say “everything to excess”, but back then instead it was “everything to moderation” which.
Leisure time now means to “waste time” with silly things, back then leisure time meant to use your free “time to learn” when not working. Even Bill gates does this since he didn’t go to regular summer camp like others when he was a kid, but to reading camp.

People are conditioned to do what is right and now people are conditioned to do what is wrong. Education was to be better person and things fall into place, now it’s to learn a thing don’t fall into place. For example the war now how it’s for oil and if the electric car was not sabotaged by the car companies by doing a recall and destroy them all we would be driving electric cars, but they don’t get more money if the care doesn’t break down and doesn’t use gas and the majority has to pay for it. What else would you expect when the motto is “greed is good” for many rich?

Society progresses at a snails pace and many things are not being done because of how people act and companies act since that is what they are raised to be.

The more secular the society gets the more messed up it gets. I don’t know if you read the other post I mentioned to you that explains it but people have to go back to the foundation of why people were Christians and why society made the laws to help bring progress in the first place.

I honestly want to know when things will be as close to idea in the many Christian actions back then than the fake Christians actions now. Just because you act like a Christian sometimes doesn’t mean you are that secular, but when you disagree with the Christian views don’t you think it can hurt you? You even agree it’s great they didn’t pay taxes but how the tax system came up now and the banking is by secular views. One for all and all for one, and not all for me and non for you which is what people today want. LOL

Well you say you don’t know about Ancient Greece but you seem to come to this forum so why not know the origins of Christianity more as well and maybe you might be amazed as I see you were a bit in this post. Some people in here are learning ancient Greece like Brandon which is good for him and I would do it too but I feel I won’t be using it much since I will forget but maybe in the future. Lol I am more interested in the history to find the truth for now, and not the distorted one like some schools and modern society present as mene pointed out how it is now.

There is a lot to learn, so much that people will attack just because they only know one side of the story than both most of the time. There are more questions than answers and people don’t want to believe in a way that there is in how they act, and so are fear and attack since they don’t want their preconceived reality to be broken. Meaning people feel secure in believing their errors than not be sure and look for answers. Kind of like how Christianity says it’s better to be a slave in heaven than the ruler of hell. What do you choose to be a ruler (denial) of slave (understanding). Lol kind of like the movie the matrix would u rather be in a fake world or the real world? Sorry if it gets confusing.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
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