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Too far – crazyishone

crazyishone

Member

Posts: 1685
From:
Registered: 08-25-2004
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2006/161106taser.htm

You can find that video at other places as well, that just where I got linked to.

Tell me what you think of this.
Personally I think it is a perfect example of the double standard in this country.

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HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Whether or not someone is innocent of anything, it's still against the law (and I think rightly so) to resist arrest. I think I counted about 50 instances of the officers telling him to cooperate by standing up and letting him be escorted peacably from the building. When you don't cooperate with officers, what do you expect them to do (whether you're of Arab descent or not)? He certainly had enough energy to yell out "here's your f'ing abuse of power" and sit there and yell at the officers and say "I'm leaving the building, leave me alone" -- no. If an officer asks you to show ID and you instead try to walk away, what do you think they're going to do? They can certainly detain you for something like that. That's like being pulled over for a random drunk-driving test on a Friday night and when asked to show ID you say "Oh no, I'm fine officers, I'm just going to drive home now" and refuse to cooperate.

What do people expect? They complain when they're not kept safe, yet they complain and hinder police officers when they're trying to do their job. Yes, America is not perfect. But having just come back from one of the richest countries in West Africa (which, lemme' tell you, that's not saying much), what we've got here is better than 90% of the rest of the world right now. An incident like this wouldn't even be given a second blink in Niger or Nigeria or Ivory Coast right now. So many people in America (not the majority -- but they're certainly the vocal minority) are losing their safe little bubble of insulation from the hard realities of the rest of the world, and they don't like it. They expect government to have control over their lives and they always want to be some sort of special-treatment victim. Petty dictators and Communism and violence and poverty and Radical Islam are all realities, and the sooner these people wake up and start trying to fight it rather than burying their heads in the sand, the sooner we can keep on keeping on together.

*sigh*.

/me goes back to coding.

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited November 17, 2006).]

bennythebear

Member

Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
hanclinto, if you want to see something really funny(in that sad kind of way) you should read the readers comments. comparing bush to hitler...i'm pretty sure the bible speaks bad toward those who trash their governments leaders, it uses the example of michael(i think) not even bring accusations against satan, but rather saying "the LORD rebuke thee". all he had to do was show his id.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

Realm Master

Member

Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
Meh, that guy sounded like a sissy and a jerk.

Propaganda, thats it.

If I get tasered, I hope I wont start sobbing like this sap did.

If i do, then I'm sap too, and not worthy of life...

seriously, i won't be much good in life, I've seen people (not first-person or personally, on the TV and such) that were tasered and jsut fell down. Sure they grunted but they didn't sob like a baby and yell childish obsenites and blam the cops for "abuse of power" and such.

Meh, Propaganda, losers who want to feel their "making a difference in the world" who are only spiltting hairs and splitting people into factions that otherwise could get along perfectly.


Jerks.

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yeah, im a little crazy
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crazyishone

Member

Posts: 1685
From:
Registered: 08-25-2004
On a specific note, I'd like to comment on the use of tasers.

I think many officers are using them too liberally. An officer (black, female- if that means anything to you) tazed an elderly woman who refused to give up her purse.

Is it just me, or is it unnecessary to electrocute an old woman?

Perhaps because no permanent damage is done, officers feel that they can just whip out their taser whenever there is an issue. I don't remember seeing these kinds of complaints with pepper spray, so I'm not sure whats up.

Defiance and disrespect for authority is obviously the guy's problem, and I too have seen many people take on this "device of torture" with little more than yelp. Officers themselves have to experience it in training.

But it looks really bad, and they need to be aware of this. "Helpless man refuses to show his papers and is brutally tortured in front of horror-struck spectators!"

Sounds like something you'd see in an old anti-nazi film. The idea of electrocution is not something we're comfortable with in the US, nor should it be. Taze the guy who is running away, or fighting back. If a guy is just arguing, calm him down and "take him in." Pointing a gun at somebody doesn't look good either ("I was apprehended at gunpoint!", but it still plays off better than shocking him.

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CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
I'd hate to be the airport security that has to check that guy's bag whenever he wants to fly somewhere.
ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
haha.
I can see it...
"sir, bend over. sir, bend over. sir, spread your legs."
"AH AAHHHA AHHH oooohhh..."


(mm.. maybe I crossed the line with that one)

if I was the police officer, I'd kick that guy in the nuts.

frankly, I went into with a critical eye on the cops, but left with a critical eye on the student. He's an idiot. Cooperate. If you are gooing to fight a battle, civil disobedient style, make it evident what it is and why your doing it. Why did he not give his ID? why did he not leave? why did he not get up? well, maybe he's into that kinda stuff...
according to the code of civil disobedience, you need to make your cause public and not fight any punishment given to you. you do accept what the government throws at you. and that's why I won't practice it.

and, besides, that guy was screaming like he was getting hacked up. granted, that will win many liberal hearts, being that many liberals only care about those who can whine and cry.

should they have tasered him as much? that's debatable. perhaps no. I'd just pick him and drag him out.

frankly, while I'm by far no advocate of a police state, the police do need to have a degree of power over the civilian to be even remotely effective. It's a delicate balance; we don't want the police to be an tool of fear used to control the masses (cuz it happens and sometimes it comes around fast, aka Nazi Germany/communist russia) and there are large amounts of people cry like their mother died anytime a police does a little more than ask nicely. On the other hand, ineffectial police leads to rampant crime and MadMaxian anarchy (well, maybe not quite so cool).

now, individual acts by these police are not necessarily the products of the government; serving on the line is dangerous and the amount of rules put upon them are enourmous and overwhelming.
the police force was sued huge amounts when some cops shot some dogs that were, I believe, attacking them.


yeah... lotta jammed capslocks in those reader comments.
...those kind of people piss me off.

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Yes, I'm still better than you
Soterion Studios

[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited November 19, 2006).]

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
that's just stupid. this is like when Rodney King was apprehended for speeding and they had to chase him down, pull him out of the car, beat him, taze him about 15 times, and then drag him screaming into the police car. then after 3 days of riots because of this, he goes and tv and says, 'Can't we just all get along?'

I think the student should be less of an *** and show them the id. either that, or leave the building peaceably.

besides, being tazed can't be bad enough to make someone scream like that.

yeah, he obviously had enough energy to scream profanity about the patriot act.

well, chalk it all up to the decline of western civilization. not much we can do.

right HanClinto. i think you're absolutely right.

Arch, those kinds of people tick me off too. don't you wonder why in the heck they would be such idiots in a place where anyone can read everything they say? i guess it's the anonymity.

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that post was really cool ^
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[|=D) <---|| me

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by buddboy:
that's just stupid. this is like when Rodney King was apprehended for speeding and they had to chase him down, pull him out of the car, beat him, taze him about 15 times, and then drag him screaming into the police car. then after 3 days of riots because of this, he goes and tv and says, 'Can't we just all get along?'


RK resisted arrest, got whooped and then this gave people a reason (not a good one) to riot so they could loot and burn down their communities. It took years for most of the businesses to move back and they wonder why. Btw I was in LA when this broke out, I grew up there and was visiting friends when it all hit the fan. I actually used to live on Florence ave. haha at least until white flight.

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
I think the kid should have been tazered more. A lot more. People like that are worthless, the whiney little brat is talking about abuse of power, what a joke. Usually when people resist they have a reason, and in today's world the cops can't take ANY risks! What a moron to resist, 5 seconds of his life to show his ID, what a LOSER! I would have tazered him till the sun went down. He's gonna get all the bleeding hearts on his side, and he's at fault, he was wrong, he's gonna stir up a bunch because he didn't wanna show his ID. I'd lock him up and throw away the key.

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
This is pathetic. They say that America is a democracy and they are fighting for freedom across the world, all i can say is... LOL. So someone didn't wanna show their ID, hardly the end of the world. Well he could be a terrorist or something stupid like that... man you guys are paranoid beyond belief.

You had terrorist attacks on you like 5 years ago and now the civil liberties go out the window. I remember only 10-15 years ago the IRA were always bombing England, shopping centres etc etc loads of people died. If this happened over here, the public would go crazy. Your constitution sucks, no seperation of State and Government thats the problem. Your brainwashed by the media, and America has become a breeding ground for red neck conservative capatilists... bleugh.

Because of this thread, you have made me grateful i live in a civilised country. You have shown me just how good our constitution is. Good day... peace

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
you know nothing of America.

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Yes, I'm still better than you
Soterion Studios

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
you know nothing of America.


Care to elaborate... educate me

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
I really don't, but I will say one thing.

you make claims about our people and the way we are, yet you fail to understand Americans agree and practically nothing. There are people who outcry this and there are people who don't. There are police would never do this, and there are police who would.

that's all I want to say. the rest would be flaming.

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Yes, I'm still better than you
Soterion Studios

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Well, I'd just like to point out that England has very strict gun control laws(something Americans would never stand for) and the murder rate is skyhigh.

...I love America. England sucks. Because of this, I'm grateful I live in a civilized country. That just shows me just how good Our constitutions is.

Have a nice day - but I don't know how it can be peaceful when criminals are allowed to roam free and people who try to defend themselves get thrown in jail, D-SIPL.

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
Well, until someone can come up with some concrete statements, i still stand my ground.

America the land of the free... ok then.

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
I'd say we're a lot more free than people living in England.
D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
Well, I'd just like to point out that England has very strict gun control laws(something Americans would never stand for) and the murder rate is skyhigh.

...I love America. England sucks. Because of this, I'm grateful I live in a civilized country. That just shows me just how good Our constitutions is.

Have a nice day - but I don't know how it can be peaceful when criminals are allowed to roam free and people who try to defend themselves get thrown in jail, D-SIPL.



And strict gun laws is a bad thing? You have how many shootings go on in america all the time. Even sniper nuts! Your schools get shot up all the time, when will you learn!? Oh right, sorry your better then everyone else, i forgot.

You have bad places and good places like any country. We have sky high crime-rate?

quote:

Homicide rates per 100,000:
Britain 5,402
America 13,021


Don't make random statements that you can't back up.

With regards to constitution, ours is pretty much the envy of the world. It's quite dated, but it works. The seperation of Sate and Government is the best thing. A case for example...

One military guy in west virginia said he didn't agree with the US foreign policies, he was thrown in prison. Because the president is head of the US military.

Whereas in Britian our Queen is the head, attack the government and your well within your rights too. Don't agree with policies and such, then good for you. Our Queen can (and has) intervene at anytime. We avoid dictatorships and loonies.

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
I'd say we're a lot more free than people living in England.

Hows that then? Because you can have a gun? Good for you.

I hold a full gun license. It would be revoked, if i had a criminal record, or if i was ever prescribed anti-depressants. Which makes sense, right? Otherwise you end up with a country where any idiot can walk into a school and blow people away... err, oh yeh.

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
wow D-SIPL, way to star a flamewar. and ur a mod, too. ha ha.

stuff like what you said ticks me off. you said people's civil liberties are taken away because of a terrorist attack? the Patriot act is what you're referring to, i believe. the whole point of the patriot act is to give those who are supposed to be protecting us the power to do so.

please define what you mean by separation of Government and State. State meaning? the 50 states? because if so, each state has its own government and constitution, so whatever.

red neck conservative capitalists? ok i guess all us americans are rednecks who all own shotguns and go around shooting arabs.

brainwashed by the media. ok so, what country in the *world* isn't? you cannot, CANNOT, tell me there is not a place in the world that has media and is not influenced by it. CANNOT.

thank you Lazarus. good point there.

civilized country? you make us sound like savages. what do you think america is like, some gang-ridden place where we all run around killing one another with our shotguns and our crazy president blows up the world?

like arch said, you know nothing of america.

ignorance ticks me off.

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that post was really cool ^ <IMG SRC="http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f272/mitchelldude/swordbanner.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f272/mitchelldude/liberalismjoke.jpg">
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[|=D) <---|| me

[This message has been edited by buddboy (edited November 21, 2006).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by D-SIPL:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lazarus:
[b]Well, I'd just like to point out that England has very strict gun control laws(something Americans would never stand for) and the murder rate is skyhigh.

...I love America. England sucks. Because of this, I'm grateful I live in a civilized country. That just shows me just how good Our constitutions is.

Have a nice day - but I don't know how it can be peaceful when criminals are allowed to roam free and people who try to defend themselves get thrown in jail, D-SIPL.



And strict gun laws is a bad thing? You have how many shootings go on in america all the time. Even sniper nuts! Your schools get shot up all the time, when will you learn!? Oh right, sorry your better then everyone else, i forgot.

You have bad places and good places like any country. We have sky high crime-rate?

quote:

Homicide rates per 100,000:
Britain 5,402
America 13,021


Don't make random statements that you can't back up.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I love it when people do this.

Uhm, in case you didn't know, YOUR country has a population of around 60 million people. The U.S has more than five times that.

Ahem - ahem:

http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/International/BritvsUSA.htm


D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
Seperation of State and Government is what it says.

State affairs and government affairs seperated.

quote:

stuff like what you said pisses me off. you said people's civil liberties are taken away because of a terrorist attack? the Patriot act is what you're referring to, i believe. the whole point of the patriot act is to give those who are supposed to be protecting us the power to do so


And they have protected you by spending a trillion dollars in 2004 alone on arms, while in area's of America they don't even have running water. Your country's economy is in severe decline and some of your own people are living in third world conditions and still the "people protecting you" continue to spend money fighting, rather then helping there own people... way to go. I would feel pretty safe too... ahem.

quote:
brainwashed by the media. ok so, what country in the *world* isn't? you cannot, CANNOT, tell me there is not a place in the world that has media and is not influenced by it. CANNOT.

There are plenty of places in the world, where media are not allowed to show bias. The BBC is pretty much a right wing organisation over here, but the rest seem pretty unbiased (but discredit Rupert Murdoch he's an eejit).
But yeh i would say third world countries that dont wouldn't even know what the media was would count too. So yeh i could tell you plenty

quote:
civilized country? you make us sound like d*** savages. wtf do you think america is like, some gang-ridden place where we all run around killing one another with our shotguns and our crazy president blows up the world?
Language man, this is a christian board. No i don't think that at all. I think the statistics speak for themselves. Any nutter can get a gun, nobody will stop them because everyone has the right to defend themselves. That doesn't work over here, yet because it is a lot harder to have guns, i dont need to defend myself with one. Stabbings are quite bad here recently, which is sad. We are taking steps to make sure they aren't getting into schools (standard metal detectors etc). It's mainly this white-gangsta attitude they have, it's quite sad really and thankfully it's a minority.
quote:
ignorance ticks me off.

I couldn't agree more. Good day sir.

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
Just too back up some statements made with essays and published reports.

ďThe U.S. dominates (the) international arms market, supplying just under half of all arms exports in 2001, roughly two and a half times more than the second and third largest suppliers. U.S. weapons sales help outfit non-democratic regimes, soldiers who commit gross human rights abuses against their citizens and citizens of other countriesÖ The United States supplied arms or military technology to more than 92% of the conflicts under way in 1999.Ē -Federation of American Scientists

More info on weapons sales:
http://www.fas.org/asmp/fast_facts.htm


During World War II, US President Franklin D. Roosevelt said, "I don't want to see a single war millionaire created in the United States as a result of this world disaster".

If only FDR were alive today.

The amount of war profiteering since 9/11/2001 is unprecedented. Itís not just natural gas pipelines in Afghanistan and oil in Iraq that is up for grabs: itís weapons sales and lucrative reconstruction projects, all paid for with US tax dollars. All this at a time when the fat cats are enjoying one of the biggest tax cuts for the rich in US history- courtesy of Congress and the Bush regime. Translation: The tax dollars being pocketed by war profiteering industrialists are the tax dollars of the US middle class and poor.

ďEven before US troops arrived in Baghdad, looting broke out--in Washington. While Republicans in Congress and their allies in the media yammered about the need to silence dissent and "support the troops," corporations with close ties to the Bush Administration were quietly arranging to ink lucrative contracts that would put them in charge of reconstructing Iraq. Bechtel's contract, worth up to $680 millionÖ was chump change compared with the deal greased through by Vice President Cheney's old oil-services firm, Halliburton. Ö a Pentagon contract awarded without competition to Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg Brown & Root (KBR) to fight oilwell fires is worth as much as $7 billion over two years.Ē
THE NATION Ė Editorial, May 12, 2003; issue online at:
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20030512/editors

The world spent over One-Trillion US Dollars on weapons in 2004. The US accounted for about half of that spending. If the US spent half as much money exporting schools, hospitals, and infrastructure to less fortunate countries, the image of the US around the world would be much different.

Who is War Profiteering?
http://www.askquestions.org/details.php?id=26

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
I love it when people do this.

Uhm, in case you didn't know, YOUR country has a population of around 60 million people. The U.S has more than five times that.

Ahem - ahem:

http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/International/BritvsUSA.htm


Read the quote. It was a ratio of every 100,000... ahem

I love it when people dont read quotes properly.

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
I hate it when you come up with arguments that I agree with.
D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
I hate it when you come up with arguments that I agree with.


I'm not trying to score points or make enemies. My brother married an American and my nephew and neice are American. It's not me hating americans i dislike your government and dislike some of the attitudes some Americans have. That they live in the promise land, that nobody can ever saya bad word against it. We all have faults, Britain has them, Germany has them, France has millions , and even little big ol' Canada.

Anyways, i'm not arguing, i'm not hating Americans, i only stating facts. Whats important is we do what God wants us to do in our own lives and try and be more like Him. PLUR people (peace love unity respect)

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Hey D!

I'm sorry, I had a hard time telling who you were calling psycho.

"So someone didn't wanna show their ID, hardly the end of the world."

? I'm a little confused here -- you're saying that the cops should have been okay with him walking out of there without answering their question? "So someone didn't want to stop when you pull him over, hardly the end of the world." When you are doing random screenings, what do you expect to happen when you start acting suspiciously? So he starts to leave, and they are escorting him out by the arm. He reacts violently against the police officers and yells out for them to not touch him. The continue to escort him by the arm, and he gets increasingly violent and at this points is no longer leaving the building. How do you deal with someone when he's throwing a tantrum and you're just trying to do your job? He becomes increasingly hostile, resistant and vocal. The police (if you remember from the video) continued talking in an even, level voice. They told him what to do, informed him of the consequences if he did not cooperate "Stand up, or we will taze you again. Stand up, or we will taze you again. Stand up. Stand up. Stand up or we will taze you again." Throughout this time he had the presence of mind to yell profanities at the officers, he made no claims to him not being physically able to stand up (such as "I can't"), but rather he even starting encouraging other people to be hostile to the police officers. Keep in mind that only when he was trying to start a riot to help him get free from police did they subdue him with (possibly excessive) taser force. What does any reasonable person expect? You don't want to have guns, you only want police to have that kind of power. So you give police that power, and then you don't do what you're told. If he was innocent, act like it. If you're innocent, you have nothing to fear. It's called faith in the system vs. anarchy. You want to be a law unto yourself? Great. Move to Niger and have fun with that. But here in America, we have laws and it is our civil duty to abide by them -- and that includes obeying police officers, even when you think that they're in the wrong. Yes, there are cases of innocent people being arrested, even convicted, even killed. There are several dozen cases such as these that have arisen and gained much public notoriety since the 9/11 attacks. It is sad, it is unfortunate, but would you prefer that unjustice went unchecked? Evil will triumph when good people no longer stand up and fight. And lame guys who refuse to cooperate with police officers are not helping anything. All of this ruckus could have been solved if he had instead been cooperative rather than blatantly hostile.

"If this happened over here, the pulic would go crazy." If what happened? A homophobic liberal went ballistic on some bobbies because they were touching his elbow as they escorted him from a building?

"Your constitution sucks" Interesting. Have you read it? There's an incredible balance of power built into the constitution, and frankly I think it's amazing that it's lasted so well for so long compared to how most other governments have fared over the years. Largely, it's not the Constitution in its original form which "sucks", but it's been interpreted badly through fairly recent judicial activism.

"Your brainwashed by the media" I'm sure that there is a fair bit where I am unknowingly influenced by the media, but I wouldn't consider to be completely "brainwashed" by NPR or anything.

Are you trying to be hostile? Because you're making very sweeping generalizations which I don't feel apply to me, yet you're attributing them to me. Generally that's definable as an "insult", but I've been friends with you for a while, so I'm doing my best to not be offended (I think I'm succeeding).

"America has become a breeding ground for red neck conservative capatilists" -- wow. Yes, I generally lean conservatively, yes I believe that the principles of free enterprise are very good ("capitalism"), and I claim my heritage from the hills of western Pennsylvania. So maybe you are talking about me.


Thanks for the discussion.

In Christ,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited November 19, 2006).]

Cohort X

Member

Posts: 126
From: The Great Pacific Northwest
Registered: 09-16-2006
quote:
Originally posted by D-SIPL:

Homicide rates per 100,000:
Britain 5,402
America 13,021



Where did you get this statistic? what time period is it over?

I simply can't believe that there are 40 million murders in the US every year.

considering that their were only 2,443,000 deaths in the united states in 2002 http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/vital_statistics/deaths/ I think your statistics are a little skewed. The only thing I can think of is that must be the death rate for black males in the district of columbia.

From what I heard of the story, the kid was asked to leave by the librarian , who ended up calling campus security who he also didn't obey so they ended up calling the real police and that's about when the video starts.

[This message has been edited by Cohort X (edited November 19, 2006).]

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
"If this happened over here, the pulic would go crazy." If what happened? A homophobic liberal went ballistic on some bobbies because they were touching his elbow as they escorted him from a building?

Well the use of a tazer for one, it's a little extreme. there is one of him and a handful of them, hardly fair. It's called Police brutality here.

quote:
"Your constitution sucks" Interesting. Have you read it? There's an incredible balance of power built into the constitution, and frankly I think it's amazing that it's lasted so well for so long compared to how most other governments have fared over the years. Largely, it's not the Constitution in its original form which "sucks", but it's been interpreted badly through fairly recent judicial activism.

Yeh i did a study on it sometime ago. As you say it's been interpreted badly, which is kinda strange for such a modern constitution (with regards to the rest of the world). Pre-Nazi Germany had a similar constitution, unfortunately we all know what happened next. The whole Nazi regime, was contitutionally correct (i can explain this later if people are interested). 4 German parties agreed on the bill that said "Fuhrer's bills are automatically law", the next bill he passed was to abolish all other parties. This is a very good clear example of were your constitution is flawed. No seperation of state and government is a bad thing.

quote:
"Your brainwashed by the media" I'm sure that there is a fair bit where I am unknowingly influenced by the media, but I wouldn't consider to be completely "brainwashed" by NPR or anything.

Slight generalisation, but a fair one i think. Most media in america is owned and controlled by a handful of conservative capatalists.

quote:
Are you trying to be hostile? Because you're making very sweeping generalizations which I don't feel apply to me, yet you're attributing them to me. Generally that's definable as an "insult", but I've been friends with you for a while, so I'm doing my best to not be offended (I think I'm succeeding).

Not at all. I've tried my best were appropriate to back up what i am saying with facts. I've made these points clear above. We're still friends, relax.

quote:
"America has become a breeding ground for red neck conservative capatilists" -- wow. Yes, I generally lean conservatively, yes I believe that the principles of free enterprise are very good ("capitalism"), and I claim my heritage from the hills of western Pennsylvania. So maybe you are talking about me.
Maybe then.

quote:
Thanks for the discussion.

Anytime. It's good to have someone with different views as long as people can give constructive answers to back up what they are saying. I'm all for a good debate.

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
thank you HanClinto.

D-SIPL, you may say all this stuff about faults, and how you're mad at the government, but then you make ignorant, stupid comments about 'rednecks' and 'capitalism' and you have no credibility. like HanClinto said, it's an insult. how would you feel if we began insulting you and pointing out everything wrong with your country? what if I said that your currency sucks and so does your economy?

yes, have you read the constitution *at all*? read something before you make criticisms.

i still don't understand what you mean by state. im still assuming you mean the 50 states because you said state affairs. that they are not separated is an ignorant, foolish comment. they have their own government and their own constitution, like i said, so whatever.

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that post was really cool ^
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Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
quote:
Originally posted by D-SIPL:

Slight generalisation, but a fair one i think. Most media in america is owned and controlled by a handful of conservative capatalists.


Maybe owned yes, but have you actually watched this "conservative" media? I'd say all of them minus Fox News endorse mostly liberal ideals in what they preach, regardless of who "owns" them.

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[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited November 19, 2006).]

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
almost all media in the U.S. is liberal, like Lava said.

Lincoln said, "It is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."

Don't speak out of ignorance. unless you know what you are talking about, don't. you obviously don't. no detriment to yourself, but you have no idea what the U.S. is like. I have little idea of what england is like. nor do I care. I don't make comments on your country. because I know close to nothing about it. you have gathered a couple facts and a video and want to say you are some expert on the U.S. and start insulting us.

[poke]maybe when you win a war you can tell us how to run things.[/poke]

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that post was really cool ^
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Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by D-SIPL:
This is pathetic. They say that America is a democracy and they are fighting for freedom across the world, all i can say is... LOL. So someone didn't wanna show their ID, hardly the end of the world. Well he could be a terrorist or something stupid like that... man you guys are paranoid beyond belief.


How have things changed? 20 years ago if I didn't produce an ID when ordered to, I'd be in the back of a police car, and if I resisted I'd have a swollen face too. I think it's the other way around, some are trying to replace our lawful society with an lawless one. Look at that crazy Democrat congress woman that plowed through security on her way to a senate vote (or was it house?) recently. "How dare you ask me, a black lady, for ID!", she showed up for one session out of 30 and expected to be recognized by security?. Crap, if I did that being a white guy I'd be face down on the ground no doubt. I don't expect special treatment, I don't expect it, and I don't give it and I in fact don't get it but sometimes the opposite. Cop asks for ID, you don't give him a second glance, you produce it and say "thank you, Sir!".
buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
no kidding. D-SIPL wants to make it seem like we're all conservative... not that there's anything wrong with that =D (i am definitely conservative), and that we're becoming more and more conservative. but no, we're becoming more and more liberal, and less lawful.

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that post was really cool ^
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Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
But what I am finding more and more, the conservatives think the USA is becoming more liberal and the liberals are thinking the USA is becoming more conservative.

quote:
Originally posted by buddboy:

[poke]maybe when you win a war you can tell us how to run things.[/poke]


I'd be careful with that, because many non-USA people could say "neither have you", relating to Iraq.

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[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited November 19, 2006).]

CPUFreak91

Member

Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
Every since the 1750's, Americans and British have clashed on the way they rule themselves and what they call "freedom". Both cultures do not consider the other's freedom to be real freedom because they look at freedom differently. Personally I have complaints about both countries' laws and regulations.

Why am I saying this? I have American parents. I was born in a third world Central American country. I've seen irrational protests by Guatemalans about the U.S doing this that or the other. Everyone is critical and no one is happy when their country isn't a top-dog world power.

I've been to the States, and Europe. I look at both from an outsider's point of view as I don't consider myself American (and I'm not European ). I have no country. Sure I'll get a dual Guatemalan-American citizenship when I turn 18, but neither country will be my country. So I look (and will continue to look) at every country from an outsider's point of view, so flame me if you want , but keep in mind I see things differently than all of you guys.

I side with D-SIPL a little more on the U.S restricting "freedoms" but the general American public seems fairly happy with them... after all they elected the leaders to made those decisions (same goes for the British).

quote:
Originally posted by Lazarus:
...I love America. England sucks. Because of this, I'm grateful I live in a civilized country. That just shows me just how good Our constitutions is.

You've been to England? I have an American friend who's lived in England... he says it sucks. I have a British friend who lives in the U.S... he say it sucks. Whether a country is good or not is all based on the person's point of view.

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

[This message has been edited by CPUFreak91 (edited November 19, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by CPUFreak91 (edited November 19, 2006).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
True.
CPUFreak91

Member

Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
quote:
Originally posted by buddboy:
[poke]maybe when you win a war you can tell us how to run things.[/poke]

They have. Two fairly recent wars. World War I and World War II.
The main motive behind the U.S. joining WWI was economical profit... then everything went into the great depression after that cause there were too many blokes with too much money and too many stocks.

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
actually I meant like a war with the U.S..... lol.

it's nice to get someone's point of view not from the U.S. or Britain.

i think we should all just sit back and say, 'screw it, we're just going to have to agree to disagree', cuz D-SIPL, you frankly can't convince me britain is better or something. especially since I've never been there. and I'm guessing it's the same with you. I for one would be glad to have this over and done. in fact maybe it's best the mods close this so nobody new comes on and starts flaming =D

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that post was really cool ^
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Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by LAVA:
But what I am finding more and more, the conservatives think the USA is becoming more liberal and the liberals are thinking the USA is becoming more conservative.

And then there is the rest of us that realize that the USA is becoming Socialist (i.e. USSR). Step by step, inch by inch. Most of the libs are no more than Marxists. The Republicans are what the Dems were 50 years ago, the Dems now are pinkos! There really is no need for the USCP (US communist party), the Dem's cover it well enough. It's not just the US though, much of the world has it's blinders on, these are truly the last days as spoken of in the bible, the stage is being set.

crazyishone

Member

Posts: 1685
From:
Registered: 08-25-2004
"Lincoln said, 'It is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.'"
-Buddboy

Hypocrite. I find it ... annoying... that you tell D-SIPL not to speak because he is ignorant, yet you not only misinterpret his quote, you also manage to bash the UK after admitting that you've never been there.

Honestly, some of you bring shame to Americans in general. How can you condemn strict gun-laws and still support the Patriot Act? There is the double standard I was referring to.

More power for the federal government, the individual citizen, or the individual states?

If you think gun laws are a breech of civil rights, then perhaps you'd also like to examine the constitutionality of the actions permitted by the Patriot Act?

I'm embarrassed to call myself an American when my "countrymen" post the same old nationalist/elitist crap. By the way, you don't get the full effect of using profanity when its censored. You just look like a 10-year old who snickers after mumbling "Gosh dangit!" In one short sentence you lose all credibility.

Would anybody care to hear my opinion on the original topic, or have we moved past the point where it would be relevant?


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Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Oh boy, what a can of worms! (No I don't mean England silly)

OK, I'll try to respond rationally, but I find no basis in most of your arguement DSIPL, it seems like you sat down and wrote whatever was at the top of your head.

1. Civil liberties did not go out the window, then again, you wouldn't know, you don't live here. You only hear about isolated happenings, such as this event. Too bad it had to happen, if he'd been a terrorist and blown up the library, what would you say, D?

2. So, we should let the terrorists run around and blown stuff up, like they did in England, rather than try to prevent it? Doesn't that seem a bit weird? I'm pretty sure that keeping a mall safe overrides letting people shop and not doing checks. Britains would go crazy? What do you mean go??? LOL anyhow, just because your police force is lacking, doesn't mean you should attack ours.

3. Brainwashed? As opposed to what? You think your government tells you everything? Wow, what a stupid thought, it makes no sense! No one knows everything, nor ever will. I'm not brainwashed, I think what I want to. So people believe what they hear, if everyone was a cynic, we'd all be screwed.

4. Conservative Rednecks. OK. You can take that shot at the 1.5% of our population. So, the opposite would be a Liberal Lawyer/Doctor or something? Well, most of the U.S. is Liberal, the people anyhow. A lot of the rich people are deciding some things, it happens, it cycles.

5. Gun control, it can go either way. I'm confused by those statistics, I'm pretty sure that because the U.S. is bigger and has more people, that it would cause our rate to go up. All you English people do is drink tea.

6. I have been to England, and I enjoyed my time there, you have Stonehenge, that's cool stuff. You guys drive on the wrong side of the road, have weird markings on the road, and generally are very rude drivers. Granted, NY and Chicago can be rude places too.

7. I have never studied the laws of England, but I have studied the U.S. The only reason it's lasted as long as it has is because we keep amending it, and it is a living document. It changes as time goes on. Besides, "good" is subjective, and pointless to argue. That's like saying "My brownies are better than yours." It demeans your intelligence by saying such things.

8. Ah yes, you HAVE been insulting us, by stating what you THINK are facts. It's nice of you to show an interest in the U.S., but keep your insults to yourself please, as you said, this is a Christian Forum.

9.I personally choose to believe that we are more free in the U.S. It is my OPINION. I can't prove either way. I feel safer in the U.S. than I did in England. I hate how people make generalizations based off of a few isolated incidents. It's SO humorous.

10. I love how you are so biased about how England isn't biased. What a joke, and you know it. You ARE showing ignorance, and it looks like YOUR media has brainwashed YOU.

11.I'm pretty sure U.S. is capitalistic. Meaning any man can make for himself anything. Most of the poverty in the U.S. is lazy people on wellfare, in my honest opinion. D, how do you make someone work?

12. Funny statement. "Slight generalization, but a fair one." That's like saying all Black people rob stores. It applies to some, but not all. It totally destroys your credibility.

13. I'm pretty sure you just totally dissed Han with all your short sarcastic remarks. It's like saying "It's ok, you didn't know any better" You are not the authority D, and never will be. You opinion, "WHICH IS WHAT ALL OF THIS HAS BEEN" has no more weight than anyone else.

14. OK, Tasers, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazer
Read this, if you don't like Wikipedia, look it up somewhere else, in like 99% of taser use, it's completely non-lethal.

15. Police brutatility my everloving bottom. Is it better to give him a chance to fight back? At that point he was a criminal. It's not like they HARMED HIM AT ALL. How can it be brutal if he wasn't injured? That's just dumb, it really is D.

SIGH, that was longer than I intended, but you basically opened a steaming pile of flame, and you should be expecting to get it right back. It's a good thing the U.S. was there, D, or you'd be German right now, wouldn't you?

The U.S. has doneso much good, but people just wanna tear it down cus IT'S NOT YOU!!!! Please, take your jealousy somewhere else D.

-Max

P.S. I love my country, and I stand by my President, no matter his choices, because he's human and he's doing the best he can. Fighting him is basically like "Let's start a rebellion" We are united, not divided. We also didn't try to tax the life out of our colonies, like England did, if you remember. We didn't have Kings who went to war over an insult, like England.

P.S.S. Long Live America! The land of the free, and the home of the brave!

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Quick double post.

I'm sorry you feel ashamed Crazy, but your beliefs aren't everyones, so live with it.

BTW, go ahead and tell your opinion of the incident. I'd love to hear your opinion because your opinion is important, and may possibly agree with my opinion. Because this is all opinions, isn't it?

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

crazyishone

Member

Posts: 1685
From:
Registered: 08-25-2004
I'd considered picking at a few of your statements, but my goal here is not to discredit you.

Anyway, I need to clarify something. I'm not condemning the opinions of others, I'm condemning their inability to think clearly. I will respect an opinion completely opposed to mine as long as the person doesn't contradict themself or inadvertently make a mockery of "civilized debate."

I also just realized that I covered my opinion of the "tazering" in my second post, so there is no need to repeat it.

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Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by crazyishone:
"Lincoln said, 'It is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.'"
-Buddboy

Hypocrite. I find it ... annoying... that you tell D-SIPL not to speak because he is ignorant, yet you not only misinterpret his quote, you also manage to bash the UK after admitting that you've never been there.

Honestly, some of you bring shame to Americans in general. How can you condemn strict gun-laws and still support the Patriot Act? There is the double standard I was referring to.

More power for the federal government, the individual citizen, or the individual states?

If you think gun laws are a breech of civil rights, then perhaps you'd also like to examine the constitutionality of the actions permitted by the Patriot Act?

I'm embarrassed to call myself an American when my "countrymen" post the same old nationalist/elitist crap. By the way, you don't get the full effect of using profanity when its censored. You just look like a 10-year old who snickers after mumbling "Gosh dangit!" In one short sentence you lose all credibility.

Would anybody care to hear my opinion on the original topic, or have we moved past the point where it would be relevant?



Just like to say that I completely oppose the Patriot Act.

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
I knew as soon as i posted it would get a few backs up, but thats ok. My sister-in-law and I have many discussions on this.

quote:
1. Civil liberties did not go out the window, then again, you wouldn't know, you don't live here. You only hear about isolated happenings, such as this event. Too bad it had to happen, if he'd been a terrorist and blown up the library, what would you say, D?

Like I said paranoia.

quote:
2. So, we should let the terrorists run around and blown stuff up, like they did in England, rather than try to prevent it? Doesn't that seem a bit weird? I'm pretty sure that keeping a mall safe overrides letting people shop and not doing checks. Britains would go crazy? What do you mean go??? LOL anyhow, just because your police force is lacking, doesn't mean you should attack ours.

Is the IRA still active now? No. Why? Because fighting solves nothing. Learn from our lessons. Do your homework bro.

quote:
3. Brainwashed? As opposed to what? You think your government tells you everything? Wow, what a stupid thought, it makes no sense! No one knows everything, nor ever will. I'm not brainwashed, I think what I want to. So people believe what they hear, if everyone was a cynic, we'd all be screwed.
True we can merely keep an open mind, and see the truth for what it is. The truth is there, you just can't believe second/third hand accounts.
quote:

4. Conservative Rednecks. OK. You can take that shot at the 1.5% of our population. So, the opposite would be a Liberal Lawyer/Doctor or something? Well, most of the U.S. is Liberal, the people anyhow. A lot of the rich people are deciding some things, it happens, it cycles.


Enough to vote old Georgey boy in.

quote:
5. Gun control, it can go either way. I'm confused by those statistics, I'm pretty sure that because the U.S. is bigger and has more people, that it would cause our rate to go up. All you English people do is drink tea.

That's because we are civilised. Yorkshire tea is great. If your going to talk about stereotypes then your all fat buffet diners. But that's not true, so no point going there.

quote:
6. I have been to England, and I enjoyed my time there, you have Stonehenge, that's cool stuff. You guys drive on the wrong side of the road, have weird markings on the road, and generally are very rude drivers. Granted, NY and Chicago can be rude places too.
I used to live round the corner from Stonehenge, nice place. Yeh we are rude drivers, and generally speed a lot. And we drive on the correct side of the road! lol.

quote:
7. I have never studied the laws of England, but I have studied the U.S. The only reason it's lasted as long as it has is because we keep amending it, and it is a living document. It changes as time goes on. Besides, "good" is subjective, and pointless to argue. That's like saying "My brownies are better than yours." It demeans your intelligence by saying such things.
Lasted long compared to what? A 100 (or however old) year old constitution is hardly old. I'm not gonna repeat old comments that I have posted above about the differing constitutions.

quote:
8. Ah yes, you HAVE been insulting us, by stating what you THINK are facts. It's nice of you to show an interest in the U.S., but keep your insults to yourself please, as you said, this is a Christian Forum

Really, i didn't attack anybody personally. I know a few of you are quite patriotic, and may get offended. Some of you have been constructive back which is cool. I don't really know the meaning of national pride. It's a flag, it's a country and I live here. I wouldn't get offended if you slated britain. It only exists because we have labeled this area of land Britain. Attack my wife, and thats personal, completely different.

quote:
9.I personally choose to believe that we are more free in the U.S. It is my OPINION. I can't prove either way. I feel safer in the U.S. than I did in England. I hate how people make generalizations based off of a few isolated incidents. It's SO humorous.

Yeh it's really humerous, i laughed so much i cried. 80% of England is countryside, sure Mrs Jones the famers wife may get made if you trespass on her land.

quote:
10. I love how you are so biased about how England isn't biased. What a joke, and you know it. You ARE showing ignorance, and it looks like YOUR media has brainwashed YOU.

I love this too, it's great. I'm very ignorant and all that t.v. i don't watch has got to me.

quote:
11.I'm pretty sure U.S. is capitalistic. Meaning any man can make for himself anything. Most of the poverty in the U.S. is lazy people on wellfare, in my honest opinion. D, how do you make someone work?

Mainly through putting a value on education. Changing people's mindsets isn't an easy thing. In Wales where I live now, there is very much a poverty mentality. There parents where on welfare so they will be. Have another kid and you get more money. It's sad, but through educating these people we have seen a real change. The welsh assembly invest a lot of money into youth projects, the change has been amazing. Social reform comes through education.

quote:
12. Funny statement. "Slight generalization, but a fair one." That's like saying all Black people rob stores. It applies to some, but not all. It totally destroys your credibility
Like saying English people all drink tea? Your credibility has been ruined my friend.

quote:
13. I'm pretty sure you just totally dissed Han with all your short sarcastic remarks. It's like saying "It's ok, you didn't know any better" You are not the authority D, and never will be. You opinion, "WHICH IS WHAT ALL OF THIS HAS BEEN" has no more weight than anyone else.
I haven't err "dissed" Han. He's a good friend, he said this applys to me, and i said ok then. Hows that, how you say it "dissing" him?

quote:
14. OK, Tasers, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tazer
Read this, if you don't like Wikipedia, look it up somewhere else, in like 99% of taser use, it's completely non-lethal.


"An electroshock gun, also referred to as a stun gun, is a weapon used for subduing a person by firing something which administers electric shock"... yeh doesn't sound violent at all. Didn't hurt, do it again sir

quote:
15. Police brutatility my everloving bottom. Is it better to give him a chance to fight back? At that point he was a criminal. It's not like they HARMED HIM AT ALL. How can it be brutal if he wasn't injured? That's just dumb, it really is D

Read what I said, i gave a different example. But yeh, if a copper gave me the old tazer treatment it would be considered that, especially if i had only refused to show i.d. I mean come on, they are pretty big guys, you telling me they can't hold down one person... wimps.

quote:
SIGH, that was longer than I intended, but you basically opened a steaming pile of flame, and you should be expecting to get it right back. It's a good thing the U.S. was there, D, or you'd be German right now, wouldn't you?
If you say so. I think God was bigger then Hitler. When the English country called for a day of prayer, the war turned around.

quote:
The U.S. has doneso much good, but people just wanna tear it down cus IT'S NOT YOU!!!! Please, take your jealousy somewhere else D.
Why would I be jealous with the rich history we had. You raped a pillaged some other guys native country a couple of hundred years back, and it's something to be proud of? Thanks for KFC though!

Anyways, this thread is going nowhere. I said what I wanted to say. I'm happy I got it off my chest. We agree to disagree at the end of the day.

Smile people, it's a beautiful day

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
I can't believe I did that! *slaps forehead*

Apparently I still haven't been cured of the desire to argue about politics on forums.

Well, hopefully I remember next time...

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Hey Crazyish.

I for one was/am interested in hearing you opinion. It sounds like you mainly wanted to talk about tasers, so here's a comment on one of your comments:

quote:
Originally posted by crazyishone:
Sounds like something you'd see in an old anti-nazi film. The idea of electrocution is not something we're comfortable with in the US, nor should it be. Taze the guy who is running away, or fighting back. If a guy is just arguing, calm him down and "take him in."

(A) They tazed him singly and with ample warning when he was becoming physically hostile and verbally abusive and violent.
(B) Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they only began to repeatedly taze him when he was attempting to stir the crowd into harassing the police (I.E. the beginnings of a riot). From what I can remember of the video (I'm not going to sit through it again),
(C) the officers *were* trying to calm him down by speaking with a clear, level, stern voice and he was only escalading. Yes, if the guy is "just arguing" then put him in handcuffs. But it is incredibly hard to carry someone away who is physically resisting like this guy was. You can't grab his feet -- that puts the officer in an incredibly dangerous position. The best you can do is grab his elbows and physically drag him, but that's very hard when the suspect is not cooperating. The best is if he cooperates, and if he's throwing a tantrum (literally, lying on the floor yelling and screaming and flailing) then there is little that an officer can do.

You're right though -- tasing looks bad. In spite of all that, there aren't any broken ribs though (as might have happened were they to try to physically remove him from the building by force). Yes, I've been electrocuted and it's not a lot of fun (for the 2 months that we were in Africa I was mainly doing electrical wiring, and boy, lemme' tell ya', they run 220 over there and hardly *anything* is grounded). But it's not nearly as physically damaging as a beating with PR-24's and honestly probably the worst that happened to this guy was a good shakeup (being shocked makes one on edge and very weak-feeling), injured pride, and possibly a soiled pair of underwear.

[personal note]It really frustrates me when people call cops "pigs" and generally try to verbally piss on people who keep us safe. Yes, there are the occasional bad cops, but most cops that I have known personally are nice people who are putting themselves in harm's way in order to help their friends, neighbors, and strangers. The vast majority of police that I have known are great people who are giving their lives to help keep me safe -- is it too much to ask that we help them do their job? All of this could have been avoided if the guy had cooperated with police from the start like any reasonable citizen should. While we may be tending towards a "police state" where we must start resisting our government with force, we are certainly not there yet, the system still "works", and the way to fight evil in the government is still in the election booths. If you're not getting out and voting, studying candidates, and encouraging friends to vote (which are the proper, constitutional channels), then where do you get off trying to be a law unto yourself and causing a disturbance like this?[/personal note]

--clint

Edit: I might as well use this editing time to response to respond to D also.

Well D -- you sortof did make it personal. You basically said, "America sucks, and you Americans are all brainwashed shotgun-toting rednecks who are stupid". You weren't just talking about political principles, but rather stooped to slinging mud and personal insults at the people on the boards here who happen to be American.

"man you guys are paranoid beyond belief"

"Your brainwashed by the media" (side note -- and you're not under the same problems with the BBC? At least I have a choice to which national-level news agencies I get my news from, rather than hearing it from one monolithic source.)

"red neck conservative capitalists" (not insulting in and of itself, but I can almost hear you spitting with disdain as I read this)

"Anyways, i'm not arguing, i'm not hating Americans, i only stating facts." Really? Because it felt like you were slinging mud and using over-used media buzzwords to generalize me and everyone else here who happens to live where they were born.

"Enough to vote old Georgey boy in." -- sounds like another media buzzword...

"I know a few of you are quite patriotic, and may get offended." Well yeah -- is that bad? Saying something like "your family sucks" and then saying "oh I realize that I know quite a few of you love your family, and may get offended, but I'm just stating facts" -- what exactly are you trying to accomplish by posting such a flame of a message?

"I'm very ignorant and all that t.v. i don't watch has got to me." I don't watch (or even own) a TV either, but yet I still get my news from the major news sources, and I imagine you do too, especially considering you use so many of the anti-American catch-phrases I hear on NPR and ABC these days.

"In Wales where I live now, there is very much a poverty mentality. There parents where on welfare so they will be. Have another kid and you get more money." Wow. I just had to comment on this one. Juxtaposed with a comment like "If only FDR were alive today." really is boggling. Don't you know who set up so many of the aweful poverty-centric welfare practices we have going on in the US right now? The US has the same troubles that Wales does in regard to welfare (I've spoken with hundreds of welfare-junkies in some of my past employment, and it's truly a sad, sad system that was set up in order to buy votes).

Also, I'm a little curious as to what you mean by "no separation of state and government". One thing that's frustrated me about the way American government has turned is by federalizing more things (governing more things on a national level). The "United States" was supposed to be exactly that -- a collection of united (but separate) states. Each state has its own laws, collects its own taxes, has its own justice system, etc. It used to be that of the two main sections of parliament, one was elected by the state governments, and one democratically by the people. There used to be a much more "trickle-up" sort of voting, so that politics were done on a much more personal and local level, but also with an element of corporate nationality. It was a pretty good balance, and the federal government was originally much smaller than the individual state governments. There has been a shift away from that, but I'm not sure what you mean by "separation of state and government" -- are you referring to us not having a figure head to represent "state" like you have your monarch? The President is not the most powerful person in the US government, even though he is the figurehead. The most power that resides in any one individual is generally regarded as the Speaker of the House of Representatives. Is this analogous to your Prime Minister, or is he not the most powerful person in your government?

Incidentally, FDR is one very good example of someone who helped break down this separation between the individual states and the Federal government. He certainly did a lot to restructure the American government into much of what it is today. Three cheers for Social Security! (FDR's botched attempt at socialism, that I and everyone else my age is paying for and will never see the benefit of because it will implode long before we get there).

Hoookay. I'm done.

under His grace,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited November 20, 2006).]

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Alright, I apologize for my stereotypes and my flames, and I was kinda heated when I wrote it.

Yes, it was personal D, that's for me to decide if it's personal to me or not.

One last thing.
1. The taser didn't hurt him.
2. The police tried all they could before showing him who's boss.
3. I'm glad the police were there in force, rather than have one get hurt, because 95% of the cops are good people, and are trying to protect us.

You have hurt me DSIPL, and changed what I think about you somewhat. I don't think your comments can ever have the same effect on me. I used to look up to you, and respect everything you said because you seemed so unbiased, so knowledgable. Your ignorance sorta caused me to stumble. I'm sorry for all this.

In Christ,
-Max

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso




Posts:
From:
Registered:
I agree with D-SIPL

I saw the video, it was stupid. The guy could not stand up since he got tasseled since it temporary immobilizes the person they said on TV. Those rent a cops are a joke, if they had a chance to watch 2 people fight they would, they are just lazy.

As they say more security is less freedom since they are complete opposites. I also see some peopleís statistics being way off and bias. Pound for pound for the USA to be a 1st world nation to compare to other 1st world nations it is far from being an inspiration as it use to be but being an example of what can go wrong. I think itís mainly because of ChristiansÖ well at least the distorted kind. You can see it in their entertainment, kind of odd how most secular things sell mostly to Christians, but Christians canít sell anything to a secular. Just goes to show they donít know what they are doing most of the time.

Most people donít know about what freedom is since over 70% donít even have a passport, and some that do close their eyes to what is going on in the world. Itís safer to deal with an atheist than Christian that donít do Christian things since at least you know what you get when dealing with a atheist, but with a Christian they can swing both ways which they do most of the times lol.

If all the 1st world nations voted the US would be in last in many things sorry to say. Some donít want to hear it but they are fanatical kind of like Muslims. Talk about being bias. Lol

Most conservatives are not conservatives and are deluded. Pat Buchanan ins a conservative but most that vote conservative keep the liberal views or encourage it. The vast majority of the media is Liberal; they just put a few conservatives to talk just like giving crumbs for people to nibble on at times.

But its not about England vs US but vs other 1st world nations. If anything US is close buddies with England. If US says lets go to war England says ok. Lol

In the end one countries view of freedom is different from another, everyoneís opinion here is no better than any other countries view of freedom. As the ancient Greek said this is also the motto of the state of New Hampshire ďLive Free or DIE!Ē

PS. I didnít start this post but it sure reminds me of how my posts turn out with people calling names and saying things that are not true and can not back them up. Well I guess this post is another example of how Christians can be influences by secular societies to say unchristian views. Well thatís my opinions from the facts I have seen. lol

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

CoolJ

Member

Posts: 354
From: ny
Registered: 07-11-2004
Having two older brothers that went to college, and Im attending school now myself, I know the kind of crap campus security and local cops have to put up with. While this guy was pulling his stunt, here's some the real problems these guys were having to contend with:
http://www.ucpd.ucla.edu/ucpd/bulletin_crime_briefs.html

Sadly, a post-modernistic 'question authority always' mentality can prevail amoung professors and students on campus. Post-modernism brought us moral relativism and ever so popular semiotics.

Like D-SIPL suggests, the 'villain de jour' of these folks right now is that sinister Big Bro George Bushy and his gang of Reddneck Conservatites from the bad ol' USA! Oh yeah, and those evil campus cops at UCLA can be added to the list!

And D-SIPL - quotes from 'The Nation'? common, you can do better that that.

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by max:
Alright, I apologize for my stereotypes and my flames, and I was kinda heated when I wrote it.

Yes, it was personal D, that's for me to decide if it's personal to me or not.

One last thing.
1. The taser didn't hurt him.
2. The police tried all they could before showing him who's boss.
3. I'm glad the police were there in force, rather than have one get hurt, because 95% of the cops are good people, and are trying to protect us.

You have hurt me DSIPL, and changed what I think about you somewhat. I don't think your comments can ever have the same effect on me. I used to look up to you, and respect everything you said because you seemed so unbiased, so knowledgable. Your ignorance sorta caused me to stumble. I'm sorry for all this.

In Christ,
-Max


I'm sad to hear that. We all have our own opinions. What really saddens me the most about this whole thread is that I have seen people come on here time and time again putting God down, slating off the church and stuff, and nobody has shown the passion they have here. As soon as a comment was made about America, you get peoples backs up, make a comments against God and you don't hear a whisper.

I don't feel the same way about this site as I once did. I suppose thats why I wasn't so bothered about being unbiased anymore. This place used to be vibrant and was full of well respected people. The site for me has lost that now. Maybe i've grown up and changed, the only technical discussions revolve around the same beginner questions etc. The God based discussions are on pointless theological matters that I don't think have any relevance to the real world at all (remember the "old creationist, new creationist?" thread for example).

I haven't changed my opinion on any of you guys. You are all sound. It was interesting to see your different view points and I respect what you think/believe whether I think it is right or wrong.

Take care people.

------------------
"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
crazy:

what does the patriot act have to do with gun laws? If i'm not mistaken, it has to do with money laundering, immigration, banking, and the FISA.

With respect to terrorism definitions, for example, section 802 of the Act created the new crime category of "domestic terrorism." According to this provision, which is found in the U.S. criminal code at 18 U.S.C. ÔŅĹ 2331, domestic terrorism means activities that (A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the U.S. or of any state, that (B) appear to be intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping, and (C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

Section 2331 also includes the crime of international terrorism, which is identical to domestic terrorism, except that it transcends national boundaries. But this provision predates the Act.

nothing to do with gun laws.

and what are you talking about, misinterpreting his quote? what quote?

no i don't want to hear your opinion. im sick and tired of this stupid argument, i said earlier i'd be happy if it were over.

but idiots like you have to start making insults about 'ten-year-olds' and saying stuff that makes absolutely no sense about 'quotes' and calling me ignorant. i made no comments on any quotes, so whatever.

when did i ever bash the UK?

BTW D-SIPL, I was wondering, where in america is there no running water? Because I've never heard of any such place.

3rd world conditions? whatever.

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that post was really cool ^ <IMG SRC="http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f272/mitchelldude/swordbanner.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f272/mitchelldude/liberalismjoke.jpg">
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[|=D) <---|| me

[This message has been edited by buddboy (edited November 21, 2006).]

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Budboy, there are places without running water, down in the south. Also in places after hurricane Katrina.

DSIPL, I've always spoken up against people flaming God too, heh, I just tend to flame them back.

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
DSIPL, when did people put down God that no one has complained about?

When Warsong starts a theological debate, everyone jumps on his case. And anyone who comes on here who has a shades of gray thinking of right and wrong, everyone is on their case.

Is it just me, or are the Theological and Political debates the topics that get the most attention and the coding subjects that get the shaft?

P.S. Buddboy, please keep the language down, this is a Christian board.

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[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited November 21, 2006).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
It's not just you, Lava. Maybe he's talking about something that happened before I came around, but I haven't noticed it at all.
buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
neither have i.

Max, I lived in the south for the better part of my life. can't think of any such places. yes, some because of the hurricanes (happened to me, actually). but I don't believe that is the fault of the government.

ok yeah they could be doing more to fix that... lol.

<edit> sorry about the language. edited.</edit>

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that post was really cool ^ <IMG SRC="http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f272/mitchelldude/swordbanner.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f272/mitchelldude/liberalismjoke.jpg">
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[|=D) <---|| me

[This message has been edited by buddboy (edited November 21, 2006).]




Posts:
From:
Registered:
They say the cop had issues for using aggressive force and has been in trouble many times before. This time itís been caught on tape and many seem to defend him which is odd.

Not all cops are good but not all are bad, but the thing is that cops are paranoid since they have to be and they do think of people bad since they deal with bad people mostly. Sure cops mean well but they do what they are told and they are told to be not so nice at times. Hey I know many top racking officers and they agree with a lot of what I have said which many disagree with, but they have seen who causes the problems and which ones get free passes which the NEWS doesnít say since it is pushing for one side and also trying to not get people upset. People are made to be weaklings and hypersensitive and if the truth is said then feel offended, and you canít deal with people like that. Some cops are fine depending on where they live since they have less crime to deal with, others get corrupt by the power they have. Also beware of women cops they can be nasty since they are not as strong and act tough to get what they want. Kind of like those small dogs that bark loud but cant bite.

As for the other part of the topic...
It just proves me right which many donít want to understand. I didnít feel offended by D-siple comments and I live in America. But I know that most people in the world feel the same way as d-siple and some worse. Is it other countries fault that they think badly of Americans? Obviously not, but many Americans are ignorant to not understand why so many think the way they do and think they gone crazy to think that way. If Americans are proud to be Americans then they should practice what they are proud of and listen to what the others say sometimes since just because many fanatically disagree doesnít mean they other side is wrong, it just means Americans are just fanatically too extreme to want to understand. Many donít want to hear when I present the other side and feel offended. They talk about freedom but donít want to hear the other side since its not nice. Too many people are made to be proud and hypersensitive.

As for Christians many donít act like it since they support unchristian actions which help influence the world. Americans have more responsibility than anyone in the world and the Christians throw their hands up in the air and give like the French which they insult, but at least the French act more Christians to not want to start wars. Americans are arrogant and spoiled especially the people that know what is right and wrong. If people donít like that comment then go see how someone in a first, second world country lives and see what they live with which

Maybe I should have made my own post about it since people listen more when they know I post lol. I seem extreme to many Americans and logical to many non Americans. Lol I donít want just one side of the story I see all side and many find that bias which is hypocritical of them to say. So in the end Christians donít act like Christians no matter how much they say they are because of what they support which brings evil thing to happen. "Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"

I donít think people should attack another in here, if people want to attack someone then hit me. Lol No hard feeling itís just the facts that are not so nice, just like when a doctor says something bad to you doesnít mean itís an attack but an explanation. You can listen, think, and ask about it or just take the easy wide, short unchristian path and just attack the facts that are not pretty.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Warsong: Wow! I wasn't going to enter this thread, but I must say, (Maybe its because I agree with you) but that is the most peaceful post I've read of yours.

As for the topic, aye, If you don't obey a police officer, you deserve being shocked slightly. You should know better! How hard is it to produce an ID if you are innocent? If he asked me to do a handstand for 1:00, and do 50 Cartwheels, then I might object (I can't do them anyway) but it all seems so easily avoided. Maybe its because I've never been in direct confrontation with a cop.

As for America vs. England, I love America, I've only been to Mexico, but didn't feel as safe, and secure as I do here. England has a rich history indeed, but as for domestic, they've become more conservative (As you call it) than they were, I've read stories about John Bunyan, and for stealing cheese, he got whipped, and lots of nasty things done to him. In Bible times, stealing could mean death by stoning.

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

Mene-Mene

Member

Posts: 1398
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
Registered: 10-23-2006
Sorry, forgot about reply to BuddBoy.

BuddBoy: YIKES!!!!!!!!!!!!! Cool down man! Try to use a LOT less language. This is a christian forum with 11 & 13 yr olds.

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MM out-
Thought travels much faster than sound, it is better to think something twice, and say it once, than to think something once, and have to say it twice.
"Frogs and Fauns! The tournament!" - Professor Winneynoodle/HanClinto

crazyishone

Member

Posts: 1685
From:
Registered: 08-25-2004
@Buddboy

You bring up all the specifics of the act, so at first I thought "oh hey, he's actually going to say something intelligent for once."
I was wrong.

Did I say the Patriot Act was "anti-gun" legislation? No. If you can't see that I meant the two views (supporting Patriot Act and being anti-gun control) are contradictory, then you clearly have a problem with "reading comprehension." A strange issue for a brilliant person such as yourself to struggle with.

You're pathetic.

@ "The site is going down the tubes" statements:
I said that a while ago and admitted to being one of the initial steps in the..er.. "fall." Being less of a cynic back then, I also suggested that we take steps to reverse the negative pattern. CPUFreak even started the whole community project thing up in an effort to salvage the "old ways".

If CCN is dead because of the "younger crowd", I apologize to those of you who have been here a while. When I first came to the site, I didn't know what a game engine was. I learned a lot here, earlier on anyway. It isn't too late to reform the site a bit, but it most likely always be a place for "noob coders" to come with their delusional ideas of leading the masses to Christ with "Bible Pong" or whatever.

Whatever. I'm looking for another place to kick around, so if any of you that don't hate me find a decent spot please clue me in. I lurk on a few forums, but none of them seem all that interesting. Check out GameDev.net if you're looking for content heavy on the more complicated aspects of game development and programming. Real professional attitude there.

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Posts:
From:
Registered:
crazy thatís just crazy lol

gamedev has many anti Christian in the forums and the mods are worse than the people in it. A few good people and the top 2 people are good. I found this site form a guy I met in gamedev which is a member here. Gamedev sucks because of the bad moderators which are just as bad as or worse than the crazy atheists. Even cheesestrom has more morals than them lol

Well as the saying goes everything to moderation and I try not to post a lot and we both seem have joined at the same time but you have over 4 times more posts than me. I think everyone should just take it easy and not get so bent out of shape over some topics.

This place is fine and has fine people despite I think that many are wrong, but other forums can be worse.

If people listen good if not then o well. In the end their is so much you can say and then you walk away.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Shaw "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven"
My original game for GP32

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
In reply to threads against God and whatever, people do reply back but not with the same passion as has been shown in this thread. If i said this thread hasn't effected me (negatively) I would be lying. I have been here for 5 years or so now and could honestly say nobody here knows me (Graceworks the best), I care about politics, i care about people and the effects that we have on people all over the world. Take for instance the trillion dollars spent on the war in 1 year, you think of the impact you could have in the third world with that kind of money? To me that would be a bigger priority. But i'm not starting another political debate.

There is a younger croud here and thats great, this place can only carry on if young people get onboard. Unfortunately at times this has been to the detriment of good technical debate. I hunger to learn more everyday and need a place that can feed that. This place no longer does. I love the community here, but since people now probably question my character and possibly no longer respect me, then that may be out of the window too. What keeps me here? Being able to help people out with techy problems, I love the Linux threads, i love it how i'm the only old skool linux user, with all the old value.

I have loads of Uni work to be getting on with. I'm writing a 3D game engine in C++ at the moment ready for my final year project next year and don't have the time I used to, to be able to post in depth topics etc. It's down to you guys to turn this site around, and bring back the original purpose of this site, to be a place where christian coders can chat about all things techy.

I apologise to anybody I may have offended here, that was never my intention. If you have lost respect for me or question my character, i'm sorry. I expect to live in America at some point, I have been doing a lot of mission work in San Francisco over the past few years and have been offered a placement there for a year. If that is what God wants then I will go.

Well it's down to you people to take this site up another level. Do a good job people, and don't let me down

------------------
"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by D-SIPL:
Take for instance the trillion dollars spent on the war in 1 year, you think of the impact you could have in the third world with that kind of money? To me that would be a bigger priority.

We will always have the poor a very great man said once. In the case of the war, we have only one chance to defend ourselves, and if we fail we are dead. I don't care how the media play it or how people believe the media, I am certain by study of history and knowledge of scriptures that if we fail, we perish for real. This is a life and death struggle, but it seems that many westerners (including Europeans especially) don't really realize the weight of what is really going on, or the true danger they are in.

I'll just say this, expect it all to really heat up in the next two years, many of the total nut cases believe that their messiah is returning in two years and that they must conquerer the world before he returns. You don't hear the true story on the BBC, sorry.

fearless

Member

Posts: 91
From: Romania, Tg Mures
Registered: 11-26-2005
quote:
Originally posted by D-SIPL:
I care about politics, i care about people and the effects that we have on people all over the world. Take for instance the trillion dollars spent on the war in 1 year, you think of the impact you could have in the third world with that kind of money? To me that would be a bigger priority. But i'm not starting another political debate.

Highly likely those money would've went into dictators and terrorists pockets. The 'Avoid war at all costs' thinking can lead to disastrous consequences (Nazi ascension for instance). We're not living in a perfect world and there are bad people among us and some of them get to acquire tremendous power. Sometimes war is the least damaging alternative among other possible options.

The perfect world will begin only when Christ returns. We shouldn't try to act as if everything is nice and smooth until then.

[EDIT]

quote:
Originally posted by D-SIPL:

I'll just say this, expect it all to really heat up in the next two years, many of the total nut cases believe that their messiah is returning in two years and that they must conquerer the world before he returns. You don't hear the true story on the BBC, sorry.

Might take longer then two years. However we should really take only one day at a time.

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<A HREF="http://calinnegru.googlepages.com/projects
" TARGET=_blank>My projects page</A>

'As there are plants which will flourish only in mountain soil, so it appears that Mercy will flower only when it grows in the crannies of the rock of Justice; transplanted to the marshlands of mere Humanitarianism, it becomes a man-eating weed, all the more dangerous because it is still called by the same name as the mountain variety.'
The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment
by C. S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by fearless (edited November 22, 2006).]

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by fearless:

[EDIT]
Might take longer then two years. However we should really take only one day at a time.


Are you commenting on what I said? I didn't mean the real messiah, I meant the one that the Muslims are waiting for. The president of Iran is a big believer that his messiah is due to return from the well inexactly two years and that the world needs to be ready for his arrival.

This is opposite to what were are taught such as not knowing the day or the hour and such teachings as that. We are not to conquer the world by the sword or by any other means to provoke the return of the true messiah. Their messiah is not the same as our messiah, theirs does not exist nor does their god. I say that so that there is no confusion, they are not the same in any way.

fearless

Member

Posts: 91
From: Romania, Tg Mures
Registered: 11-26-2005
Yeah and I was referring to this whole war mess the world got into recently not the return of Christ. To use different words for what I said: 'The war might last longer than that however we shouldn't make predictions on how long it will last, we should take one day at a time'.

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'As there are plants which will flourish only in mountain soil, so it appears that Mercy will flower only when it grows in the crannies of the rock of Justice; transplanted to the marshlands of mere Humanitarianism, it becomes a man-eating weed, all the more dangerous because it is still called by the same name as the mountain variety.'
The Humanitarian Theory of Punishment
by C. S. Lewis

[This message has been edited by fearless (edited November 22, 2006).]

Faith_Warrior

Member

Posts: 490
From: So.Cal.
Registered: 09-05-2006
quote:
Originally posted by fearless:
Yeah and I was referring to this whole war mess the world got into recently not the return of Christ.

Haha oh well you had the quote = to D
Two years you mean for the war in general? Yes, at this rate it will take much longer. With much of Europe with either their noses in the air or just turning to appease the enemy (France is ruined forever) it will take... much longer it's already outlasted WWII and we may not even be half way through. Some Democrats were even threatening to reinstate the draft this week, but we don't need a draft, just world cooperation and for media to put out the truth for a change instead of their war propaganda. I see it for what it is though, the Anitchrist's kingdom is being prepared for his soon coming. We could win and stop all this, but it's not going to happen, the worlds does not want it to happen, they will hail the AC.

The whole ďwar messĒ is more so linked to Christ and the things to come than many realize.


buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
yes i know that's what you meant, but i don't see how they are contradictory. the patriot act gives the government a little more control, yes, but not in the area of guns. strict gun laws can actually create a rise in murder rates.

i can see that you meant they are contradictory, i just don't see how.

i have no problem with the government being a little more in control, just what they're in control of.

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that post was really cool ^
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[|=D) <---|| me

SumGI
Member

Posts: 29
From: *Western* Montana (Oh yeah we have computers!), USA
Registered: 09-16-2006
Boy, this is almost as bad as a Evolution/Creation nuclear war. Watch out for the fallout. I think the whole world has a major problem, It's fallen and cursed, so I don't expect to see a perfect government in it.

Red light districts, porn, moral relativism, lies, theft, blasphemy, ignorance of God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit, adultery, lust, murder, hate, idolatry, disrespect, and rebellion against the LORD. Aren't THOSE the problems? What good can any government be if the citizens are immoral?

Oh yeah, you know it's true.

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Maybe I'll make an avatar. Smiley it will be.

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
Please, this thread was starting to desolve

Not that I dis-value your opinion than anyone else's on this thread, I just hate to see everyone get riled up again

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[This message has been edited by LAVA (edited November 26, 2006).]