quote:

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Slashdot Qoute:
"Microsoft is entering into an unusual partnership with Novell that gives a boost to Linux, people familiar with the companies tell WSJ.com. From the article: 'Under the pact, which isn't final, Microsoft will offer sales support of Suse Linux, a version of the operating system sold by Novell. The two companies have also agreed to develop technologies to make it easier for users to run both Suse Linux and Microsoft's Windows on their computers. The two companies are expected to announce details of their plan today at a press conference in San Francisco. In addition, Microsoft won't assert rights over patents over software technology that may be incorporated into Suse Linux, the people said. Businesses that use Linux have long worried that Microsoft would one day file patent infringement suits against sellers of the rival software.'"

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quote:

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And in other news...

* Duke Nukem Forever was released today.
* Hell froze over.
* SCO v. IBM trial over.
* Apple uses Intel Processors.

oh wait, that last one is true...

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

either that or.

DO NOT RESIST ASSIMILATION (got that from the borg-picutre of Bill Gates)

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yeah, im a little crazy

quote:

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Originally posted by TwoBrothersSoftware:
Didn't they buy controlling interest in Corel at one point and then kill Corel linux.

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I don't know about that but between this and some sort of SenderID (email related?) article I was reading the comment of, "We promise not to sue" is a little....well it doesn't instill hope and confidence. EULA's can change at any moment (just read about AT&T / SBC for a good example, same goes for MS Vista EULA), and MS' OSP (open specification promise) seems more a EULA than an alternative license to Creative Commons, GPL, etc.

** Of course I haven't read it in depth so maybe OSP is a license, still...it's Microsoft.

** I think Microsoft should be taken down a notch but I do believe it has a place for some users and in some businesses. I'm not 'totally' anti-microsoft. I'm just 'generally' anti-MS

quote:

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Originally posted by netcog:

** I think Microsoft should be taken down a notch but I do believe it has a place for some users and in some businesses. I'm not 'totally' anti-microsoft. I'm just 'generally' anti-MS

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I'm using windows XP! Lol!! I'm not totally anti-microsoft, but its not sometihng I want having a monopoly over the computer industry.

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yeah, im a little crazy

quote:

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Originally posted by Realm Master:
I'm using windows XP! Lol!! I'm not totally anti-microsoft, but its not sometihng I want having a monopoly over the computer industry.

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I couldn't agree more. I use XP also, but also enjoy Linux. Maybe I'm bipolar as far as an OS goes.

quote:

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Originally posted by kenman:
I couldn't agree more. I use XP also, but also enjoy Linux. Maybe I'm bipolar as far as an OS goes.

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Yep, same here, XP...

[This message has been edited by Faith_Warrior (edited November 03, 2006).]

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that post was really cool ^
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[|=D) <---|| me

quote:

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Originally posted by netcog:
Uhhh....and how did you get windows to look like Linux?

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Look like? It is
XP + Linux running at the same time.

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that post was really cool ^
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[|=D) <---|| me

heh, noticed the hesitation there.

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that post was really cool ^
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[|=D) <---|| me

Sure they have embedded, ISO and a live version of DSL and also DSL-D which is a larger version of the same thing (an ISO I think).

I'm sure Gates is not happy...

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Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
--Matt. 19:26

"Time is an excellent teacher, but eventually it kills all of its students."

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But it is sort of a good thing. think about it. The more popular Linux is, the more MicroSoft worries. The more they worry, the more they change. If they are worried about Linux, they'll try to make it (Windows) like Linux. the more Windows is like Linux, the better Windows is. see? then Linux improves so it's even more better than Windows (that's not hard =D). Then Windows worries cuz it sucks again. its a cycle. The cycle only ends when software is totally switched to Linux and people use Linux because of the fact that software only works on Linux now.

See?

Its good to have posers. Posers make the real thing better.

Sometimes.

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that post was really cool ^ <IMG SRC="http://s49.photobucket.com/albums/f272/mitchelldude/swordbanner.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f272/mitchelldude/liberalismjoke.jpg">
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[|=D) <---|| me

[This message has been edited by buddboy (edited November 03, 2006).]

Futilistance is Retile.

A classic Windows SCREWUP from your "friends" at Microsoft.

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that post was really cool ^
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[|=D) <---|| me

People like to buy their computers with an OS preinstalled, and they want it to be windows. "Lunix. What is this... this lunix? A virus? I want my money back".

Admittedly, Microsoft is notorius for copying good ideas. Thats not to say they "steal them", just that they can see what works and market it as their own. Its business, and cheesy ethics have no place where money is to be made.

You "open source all the way" guys can have fun with your neo-chivalry software development, but alot of people need to bring home the bacon.

That being said, I'm all for free software and open source. I just don't think it needs to be such a religious thing that all who oppose it must be greedy fools who can't program their way out of that little cubicle with the carpet-like walls.

</rant>

I would be happier if the linux community would give up on making a "user-friendly, desktop OS" alltogether. Its uh... a waste of time.

Consider this: People say they go to a linux distro because they get sick of "the crap they get in windows", or "crappy windows", etc.

I was one of them. What did I find? I had to do alot myself. Less limiting in some ways, more in others. (The user is limited by knowledge rather than the capabilities of the OS. It can all seem very obscure and difficult at first.) I eventually found things I preferred to do in a linux environment, but I also realized I was favoring the command line.

Point is, if a person left Windows because they wanted less hassle, then linux is the wrong place to go. I'm sure without all the baggage its simple and stable, but remember we're talking about people used to desktop environments and at the very least a point & click interface. They're going to want KDE or GNOME, and then they will be pissed when it crashes alot, or they can't get out of the default resolution.

I'm going to pull a bit of a warsong-style move here. Don't come back at me with some "linux ftw!!!!111" arguments- you'll just prove linux is only some badge of intelligence for you. "I r teh 1337~!"

</rant>

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1. If you begin to depend on a closed program you:
A. might lose it when the company's bought out.
B. have to continue to pay money just to stay uptodate or even get (sometimes critical) bug fixes
C. you have to upgrade very often to get those (sometimes critical) bug fixes - rather than just patches.

2. If you are tired of spending money for half-decent support you don't have anywhere to go...or you have to pay money for things that should have been fixed in the first place as part of "common sense" programming or software features --- like sensible tab order or vertical mouse scrolling, or even printing.

Now....linux and most open source don't always back patch stuff, unless it might be critical - however they don't force you to pay hundreds or even thousands of dollars in yearly maintenance to get those patches or repurchasing software you already bought.

I'm not even going to get into things like the new Vista EULA or DRM issues.

I work as an admin in a manufacturing facility and I cannot begin to count how often I'm ready to rip one out of the software programmers and support of our main software for their awkward and sometimes idiotic implimentation.
We paid 80,000+ for the software plus another 20,000 or more for the installation. We pay 10,000+ a year for support.
Updates and service releases often break as many or more things than they fixed.
The web bug tracker I'm encouraged to use to track trouble tickets is implemented at 1/10th of the level Bugzilla is used. No detail on status or progress even after the tech say, "You can check our website for status and updates".
The software itself is more beta than anything else...maybe a bit past but certainly nothing I'd say is "finished". Parts are pretty much "done", and aren't too shabby, but the rest is....well Open Office is closer to "finished" in comparison to Microsoft in terms of Memory Usage and functionality than this is to anything I'd call "finished". -- eg. Open office trying to move cells requires somewhat of a 'jimmy'.

All that to say this: There is a huge need for open source software to be developed to compete with the Windows, Business Objects, and industry software developers in the IT world. Money to be made from software is fine, but my experience with windows-environment software developer methods smacks more of extortion than free-market.

Of course you have great 'closed' source like Grisoft, Adaware, SpyBotS&D, even Windows and the Office Suites (at least they are generally developed to make some sense even if pricing is bloated compared to alternatives).

Linux and open source really doesn't have *that* far to go before they can compete with the more closed source developments. There are some minor pieces to work out, training and tools to make what is difficult a little more intuitive. More centralized (or diverse but complete) documentation for some points.

In fact I'm going back to college for that very reason. Provided I actually enjoy my two or three "tester" classes I plan on learning web programming enough to start competing with industry software - eg manufacturing.

There's a lot of money to be made from installation and support and development of open source tools for industry and perhaps enterprise but I'm thinking for small to medium business, not to mention house consumers, provided the developers realize they need to make it "easy". Easy to use on the front end and easy enough on the backend so that it doesn't take teams of people in the same client company to modify and run it.
There are far more small business and medium sized businesses out there than large to enterprise levels. Those smaller companies need "professional" software just as much as the larger companies. It is only just now that the closed developers are starting to become aware of "the little guy" and pricing down to met the available funds.

But, the closed source people have gotten greedy (imho)...in manufacturing you are told to watch your price points as someone could very well come along and under cut your prices, stealing your customers. You are also told to evaluate quality and customer service, not just price, because you can't always win a price war.

I don't think big closed source developers can do that, what I've seen indicates most can't be that flexible, whether on purpose or by ignorance I don't know. I do think open source developers are in a great position to take advantage of their flexibility and numbers to provide better quality and customer service. Especially with the web. Easier development, easier response to modifications, while still asking for about the same in support or even more. And by lowering comparative costs for greater benefit (such as easier customization) you are in a greater position to be more involved with the small companies - much like the larger closed source vendors can be involved with large companies that have hundreds of thousands of dollar IT budgets, perhaps even to a greater extent than the larger companies. If you wish to - things like general computer support.

Or even paid for modifications. We (the company I'm now leaving for school) would have to pay $1,000 to change something minor in a basic report (like a change to the address display in the invoice template) generated within our software. With an open source suite I could offer modifications for $20-$100 or so a pop depending on complexity. I'm far more likely to get business that way than charging a grand. Now, my time and available coding hours could be an issue - so price might have to go up, could always use a tiered system combining modifications, support, etc.
Orrr.....I can direct the interested IT parties to the software user group (community) where they can either pay another programmer to make the modification (uploaded to my repository) or perhaps even utilize some sort of (minor) franchise or contract situation.

People will nickle and dime their way all over the place, especially if they feel they are getting a good deal. Sometimes that's a bad thing, but it doesn't have to be. As long as I (we, oss) don't make it so the customer has a bad taste in their mouth, we can swipe them from a css environment with velvet gloves, and they can honestly be in better financial and IT shape because of it.

We'll see if schooling and hands-on experience matches up with how I've used and what I've been reading on the status of css and oss.

I honestly can't wait to get started this January.

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited November 04, 2006).]

Hassle in updates...well that depends on whether this is simple updates or whether you are told to not let IE7 automatically install through automatic updates because it might break your web usage.

Or where you have to spend 3 weeks trying to figure out just how in the heck you are supposed to utilize software you already paid for, upgrade its usage without paying as much as 11 or 12 times what you would otherwise pay all because Microsoft decided to be a putz with their CAL licensing.
(In my particular case it seems to have worked out okay, but to hear my network support talk it was nearly pulling teeth to get a sane answer from Microsoft.)

Or maybe the hassle that comes with being unable to move your Windows copy more than once. (see Vista)

Or maybe the hassle of trying to decide just what you need to purchase to get the functionality you need. (see Vista)

If people really understood the "hassles" that go with choosing Windows, more would be willing to at least give Linux a try. I'm talking hassles of say Ubuntu. Not hassles of whatever distro requires recompiling at every turn.
ESPECIALLY if there was clear documentation on how you get the "basic" linux setup.
- Flash, Movies, Sound, Graphics, MP3 playback, the file structure and usage of Linux, etc.

Your simple grandma user might or might not switch. Your power users would be FAR more likely to switch.

As it is, quite a bit of that "documentation" resides in forums and off-hand comments.
Power users are willing to go through steps and users are willing to have power users go through the steps for them....but only if those steps exist to be followed and only if you have a high chance of them working every time with somewhat minimal amount of time spent.

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited November 04, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by NetCog:

I work as an admin in a manufacturing facility and I cannot begin to count how often I'm ready to rip one out of the software programmers and support of our main software for their awkward and sometimes idiotic implimentation.
We paid 80,000+ for the software plus another 20,000 or more for the installation. We pay 10,000+ a year for support.
Updates and service releases often break as many or more things than they fixed.
The web bug tracker I'm encouraged to use to track trouble tickets is implemented at 1/10th of the level Bugzilla is used. No detail on status or progress even after the tech say, "You can check our website for status and updates".
The software itself is more beta than anything else...maybe a bit past but certainly nothing I'd say is "finished". Parts are pretty much "done", and aren't too shabby, but the rest is....well Open Office is closer to "finished" in comparison to Microsoft in terms of Memory Usage and functionality than this is to anything I'd call "finished". -- eg. Open office trying to move cells requires somewhat of a 'jimmy'.

---

I agree with you, definately. You'll remember that I said I think both OSS and CSS have their places, I just sick of blind support for it.

Personally, I think games should cost money. Thats not to say I won't get them for..."free".. but, the point remains. If you put out a quality game, its going to cost alot of money to make- probably more than is really necessary. But thats where the market is right now, no?

My statement wasn't so much pro- or anti-oss/linux, it was anti-oss "movement". The "omg IE iz 4 sux!" bull gets really stale after a while.

Also, you mentioned clear documentation for the basics. That's a great idea, but sadly it doesn't exist in any one spot that I have found. You have to follow links here and there to get one thing working.
It would be a worthwhile project for somebody to compile a "Getting Started, for real" documentation for the most popular distributions. Not one of these "look, KDE! shiny! get your favorite programs, you can chat with friends too! shiny!" things... something substantial. Like you said, setting up Flash, etc.

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Crazy, you mentioned that normal people don't want to mess with manually installing drivers. Well, I installed SuSE Linux 10.1 on my less-than-one-year-old laptop from DVD. Everything worked, automatically including wifi (similar scanning and easy connection as Windows), sound, correct screen resolution in X, touchpad, usb mouse, usb memory sticks, etc. In order to play 3D accelerated games, I had to download a proprietary driver, with about as much hassle (not much) as you would with a fresh Windows XP install. The next time I buy a laptop, I hope I can get one with either Linux or nothing pre-installed, so I don't have to pay the "Microsoft tax."

I set up my laptop for dual boot, but I didn't touch Windows XP for months until the speed game comp--even then, I started developing the game in Linux, but switched to Windows so the judges wouldn't have to hunt down a Linux box to play test it.

Linux has some things that Windows doesn't, like Ardour, a free Protools clone with vastly better functionality than anything available for free on Windows. Ditto for video editing software.

On the OSS/CSS debate: OSS has done much to advance indie _commercial_ game development, what with SDL, Irrlicht, Ogre, etc. The games themselves are closed source, but there is no reason we can't all work together on open source engines that lower the financial bar for small/indie game developers to produce great games.

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+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

quote:

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Originally posted by mastallama:
Hey netcog, what kind of web programming are you looking into?

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My goal is to end up with an understanding of SQL-based databases. Then have the ability to use c-based scripting languages (PHP, Python, Perl, Ruby perhaps) along with some java and c++ in addition to xhtml w/ css and at least xml understanding.
I think I'll probably try to specialize in PHP and Python. If I merge that with c++ and some basics of java, I think I can pick up another language like Perl or Ruby etc if needed.

So far my dream would be to:
live somewhere that has water enough to kayak on.
own or help run an independent recording studio.
be involved with developing a game(s).
have a few companies I support (or own a company that provides support) which use Linux and OSS tools where possible.

I just don't think I've got enough dedication to pure code to get heavy into the coding of a game. But if I can get good enough with graphics, web, and music then perhaps helping with the code would be enough.

I don't mind compiled code, but it's the starting from scratch that gets me bogged down. Web scripting code is different, a little quicker for me to get something out of it, less "arcane" - at least as I see it now.

[This message has been edited by netcog (edited November 07, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by netcog:

I don't mind compiled code, but it's the starting from scratch that gets me bogged down. Web scripting code is different, a little quicker for me to get something out of it, less "arcane" - at least as I see it now.
[This message has been edited by netcog (edited November 07, 2006).]

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

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All Your Base Are Belong To Us!!! chown -r us ./base
"After three days without programming, life becomes meaningless.'' -- Tao of Programming Book 2