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If you would like to play the_devils_advocate use a password of cuinheck

Jesus also teches to bless those who curse you and use you and this is because God wants us to love each other and to overcome evil with good by forgiving.
What comes to being stomped down, it could happen but turning the other cheek has always proven to be the way peace with every one in my life.

Turning other cheek could mean kind words in practice when some one comes mad on you and the anger is quickly quenched by love.

Jari.

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1Jo 2:9-10 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

quote:

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Originally posted by the_devils_advocate:
What's so great about turning the other cheek? What's the point in living for ideals if you just get stomped on by everyone else? Why would Jesus ask people to do such a thing?

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Turning the other cheeck shows the utmost love and respect, for not only others, but ourselves, not giving into emotional rage and revenge. Jesus was telling us this, not as another law to live by, but another priniple to live by.

Some interpret it to mean absolute pacifism, which I don’t believe it says, and others look it over as too confusing to understand, though it should be understood and placed in context with the whole of scripture.

Much of it has to do with the cultural practices of the time. In that culture, if someone slapped you (even lightly) it was considered a very serious insult. It was not necessarily an act of inflicting pain in some situations but a gesture much like the bird hand gesture (e.g. giving the bird or flipping off someone) that is often displayed in western culture. Even today, it is a serious insult to slap someone in Israel. In such cases it’s almost a mandate to give a slap back. Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, slap em’ back if they slap you first.

It does not mean to lay down and let someone slap you to death though. Is it turn the cheek or offer the same cheek? Do an open palm slap on the left cheek of a person with your right hand(visualize), if they turn the other cheek you must reposition yourself to slap the other cheek. To slap that other cheek you would physically need to use the back of the hand to do so (not a slap) or free your other hand to slap the other cheek (open palm). If you tried to slap in the same way(angle), you would hit them square in the face which is simply an attack and not just an insult by cultural standards.

So bottom line is if someone insults you, don’t offer yourself as an easy target for the same insult. To do this you don’t simply insult them back in this manor but make it difficult for them to repeat the same insult. People that often insult simply look for the easy target, if there is resistance they soon give up or avoid the matter all together in the first place. Does it mean that we all hold hands and sing ‘we shall overcome’ as an enemy force rips the guts out of our children right before our eyes(as some would say it means)? Absolutely not! That does not jive with the whole of scripture. It does mean to use your head though.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

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Maybe I'll make an avatar. Smiley it will be.

Paul was imprisoned and didn't rail against his captors. Many other examples exist.

At the same time references in both OT and NT support and/or don't detract from defending one's life and limb (or defending a country or defending those who can't defend themselves - orphans and widows for eg).

Total pacifism is not the answer, was not what was intended. You will find it hard to defend the weak if you think so.

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1Jo 2:9-10 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

quote:

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Originally posted by jari:
netcog makes some valuable points there. However was Jesus not a marthyr like he's followers (Christians)?

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Thanks, but Jesus wasn't really a martyr.

He "violently" tossed out the money grubbers in the temple.
He avoided the violence of the crowds.
He submitted to the crowds (Romans and/or church leaders) at the end according to his (God's) purpose and will. He did not submit for the reason of "because they were after him". Nor do I believe he submitted to the crowds out of any martyr-ship. That reasoning would not be in keeping with what he was here to accomplish.

Turnign the other cheek is an example to everyone else what Christain Ideals are.

Though, I myself am a contradiciton to my own faith (wanna join the military before college)

I think there is a point, however, where You can't let people just walk on you. As a firm beliver in God and Chivalry (Knights, W00T!) There's a difference between turning the other cheek, and letting yourself be walked on.

(I.E. Some werid thug comes up to you in schol and says "Hey, beatch, Gimme your Jacket" he cracks his fingers. You give him your jacket, even if he is smaller (Though in reality, I probalby woudn't ) Then he says "And your shirt!" Give him your shirt (Unless your Female, then you don't) Then if he says strip down and run around naked while I take off wiht your cloths, then you Totally kick his balls into his skull, and proceed to beat the crap outa him.

At least, thats the way I see it, I dunno, you can Ask God about that.

I don't think it's Gods will to see us totally dishonored and disowned. If it effects your Honor (not pride, honor) then I say don't.

Otherwise... Bible knows best.

*Straps on helmet, grabs AR-15 and prepares for counter-reponses*

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yeah, im a little crazy

quote:

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Originally posted by netcog:
Thanks, but Jesus wasn't really a martyr.

He "violently" tossed out the money grubbers in the temple.
He avoided the violence of the crowds.
He submitted to the crowds (Romans and/or church leaders) at the end according to his (God's) purpose and will. He did not submit for the reason of "because they were after him". Nor do I believe he submitted to the crowds out of any martyr-ship. That reasoning would not be in keeping with what he was here to accomplish.

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Perhaps martyr is not the right word but consider what isaiah says:

- Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

Our Lord Jesus gave He's life for us - you know that - and He really didnt fight back of course, when the time had come.

So to me it seems that God doesn't want us to fight back. We should of course move away from the danger and suffer for the weak by giving our own life and not fight. Because then we can still pray like Jesus prayed "... forgive them; for they know not what they do ..." (Luk 23:34) and by doing so we pray for our enemies.
I believe paul is among the same line:
- Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Now if you think about it, what use it is to protect your self so that others suffer and even die? Our - who are saved in Christ - soul is on God's hand, unlike the other one's soul.

This reminds about David, who did not kill saul when he had the change but let the Lord do the justice.
(1Sa 25:29)

In Christ,
Jari.

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1Jo 2:9-10 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited October 28, 2006).]

I do not follow this very closely, even though I should. I have a quick tongue and a large vocabulary, so I usually end up winning word fights with people, even though I know I should simply never start them in the first place.

Note to self : work on this, lol.

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

quote:

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Originally posted by max:
I see it simply as if someone says something to hurt your pride, don't give him the satisfaction of trying to insult him back. Simply be the better person and say nothing, or walk away.

I do not follow this very closely, even though I should. I have a quick tongue and a large vocabulary, so I usually end up winning word fights with people, even though I know I should simply never start them in the first place.

Note to self : work on this, lol.

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Good Advice, I'll try that!

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yeah, im a little crazy

quote:

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Originally posted by jari:
This reminds about David, who did not kill saul when he had the change but let the Lord do the justice.
(1Sa 25:29)

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Hmmmm,

Well, to start with: I direct your attention to David and Goliath, as well as the rest of the battles David was involved in over the course of his life, among just a few examples.

quote:

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Our Lord Jesus gave He's life for us - you know that - and He really didnt fight back of course, when the time had come.

So to me it seems that God doesn't want us to fight back.

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I do not believe that is quite a correct conclusion. I don't disagree with you on exhortions throughout the New Testament to "submit", as it were, to our enemies.
But....Jesus' lack of fighting back leading up to his crucifixion is not related to simply "don't fight back". Jesus had a task to complete and it would be impossible to complete if he fought and escaped.
Some comparison might be made, but a direct relation between that and every single situation we might come upon in living our lives...I don't think so.

There is still the matter and available conclusions to draw from Jesus and the moneymakers in the temple.

I was going to type more but a couple of links said it better:

http://strategicintelligence.blogspot.com/2006/10/on-christianity-and-self-defense_1 8.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=25442

http://blogcritics.org/archives/2005/02/06/180544.php

http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/Default.aspx?tabid=27&ArticleID=1459

These, especially the last, could be viewed as taking a few scraps and trying to build a case from it. And yet, an utter pacifist stance is not completely supported without points to the contrary. Especially if you believe the Bible does not ever truly contradict itself.

There is only one way to understand and read the Bible. I don't claim to know it all, or even a percentage of it, nor do I claim that I will know more than a small portion, if that; but I do claim that any other method of reading Scripture will result in (A) contraditions or (B) requiring significant adjustments of other portions of scripture to match your stated conclusion. Whether I know that method or not is up for me to find out, I'm simply stating that such a method exists if you believe the following.

If the Bible is a complete work. If the Bible is the Word of God.
If it is not expressly stated throughout following passages that one previous portion of the Bible has now been completely superceeded and replaced, then the former portions of the Bible must still have some manner of validity and application to present situations.

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited October 30, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by NetCog:

But....Jesus' lack of fighting back leading up to his crucifixion is not related to simply "don't fight back". Jesus had a task to complete and it would be impossible to complete if he fought and escaped.
Some comparison might be made, but a direct relation between that and every single situation we might come upon in living our lives...I don't think so.

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How I feel about this is that as follower of Jesus I am to do everything like He did and that included giving my own life, first giving my life to God but then giving it for other's according to God's will. It's easy for me to say this than act like this of course but it's non the less the way I want to go. And it doesn't feel bad at all to give my life because some day we all die anyway and like Apostole Paul wrote that He'd rather be with God but for our sake he also wants to be on earth and this is the kind of thinking I have based my view, our part is not in here not defending our homes because we are just pilgrims here on earth. And families, the loved ones should not be just our families but every single person equally loved and moreover families are clothed with salvation (Pro 31:21).

quote:

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Originally posted by NetCog:

There is still the matter and available conclusions to draw from Jesus and the moneymakers in the temple.

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I don't quite see how that means that we should fight physically if that's what you mean? Because I really doupt that any violence was used towards the people but only their tables were turned over, released birds and possibly whipped the oxes with a "scourge of small cords". It sure sounds like a chaos and I'd imagine the money changers weren't too eager to stay and put up a fight.
It's a topic worth to study more and that's just my thoughts about it for now.
I know there are verses where Jesus tells to buy swords but these are all worth to study more because Jesus used a lot of parables and figurative speech and I think it helps us to understand if we think about these things realisticly, wheather they would be possible today or not. Because I do believe all Jesus' methods apply in todays world.

If you want to know about my conclusions I should probably say that I know Bible is fully word of God and there are no contradictions and God's will and law never changes. But our position and our mission does and we have many roles, like you know and most importantly we are under a new coveant which is not about one nation in one physical location in world anymore but one church of Christ.

Btw, I'm not a pacifist.

Jari.

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1Jo 2:9-10 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. 10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited November 01, 2006).]