General Discussions

Don't believe the lies in war times. – warsong




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To make thing clear in short the war of Lebanon and Israel is a joke.

Do not give money to Israel and donít go to war when the US says to. The majority of the world is against this war but only Israel, US, and England are for it while the world condemns them for their bad action.

Obviously some will disagree in some ways but they donít give you the full story in the US news since they have more of a vested interest. Always listen to the majority neutral Christian side of the story so the local news is useless and even worse.

As one news thing says
"(UN CHIEF) Ms Arbour warned that commanders on both sides could face prosecution for war crimes and crimes against humanity. "
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4782839.stm

An example of one sideís news is this
"Also unrelenting is Hezbollah's indiscriminate shelling of densely populated centres in northern Israel which has brought death and destruction. There have also been repeated allegations of Hezbollah's systematic use of civilians as human shields,"

But the thing is that Israel does the same!!! This is a military tactic to hide where its safe just like a robber hiding behind a hostage. For Lebanon to not hide where its safe is like going into a open field where 1 person with a gun is against 10 tanks which is insane.

But they don't say the entire story that Israel started it but twists the story around and doesnít show the other side since both have a vested interest.
"Since its withdrawal of occupation forces from southern Lebanon in May 2000, Israel has violated the United Nations-monitored "blue line" on an almost daily basis, according to UN reports. Hezbollahís military doctrine, articulated in the early 1990s, states that it will fire Katyusha rockets into Israel only in response to Israeli attacks on Lebanese civilians or Hezbollahís leadership; this indeed has been the pattern."
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0801/p09s02-coop.html

Which ever Christian fight or gives money to Israel is not a Christian weather they like it or not. and its kind of odd how the orthodox church and the pope are against what Israel is doing and asks for money to help the 2,000 victims in Lebanon which many of them have been Christian that got injured and killed, while the protestant churches like Pat Robertson asks for money to give to Israel which is wrong. As you see both say they are Christian but only one does what is proper.

As Israel said
"The Yesha Rabbinical Council [of Israel] announced in response to an IDF [Israel armed forces] attack in Kfar Qanna [in Lebanon] that "according to Jewish law, during a time of battle and war, there is no such term as ' innocents' of the enemy." ďAll of the discussions on Christian morality are weakening the spirit of the army and the nation and are costing us in the blood of our soldiers and civilians," the statement said."
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3283720,00.html (Israel newspaper.)

As you see choosing that option is not doing the Christian way. So when they said sorry they didnít mean it and when they say Lebanon is to blame for it shows that they take responsibility for nothing and feel that are never top blame for anything.

I know some people will be confused but donít take thing at face value. If someone give you poop do not accept it since they give it to you because they are benefiting from you believing it.

For example in comparison.:
If terrorists were in Canada should we attack all of Canada? Obviously no. The same with the IRA (Irish republican army in how Dublin didnít get boomed and destabilized.

Hezbollah has over 10 times fewer weapons than Israel.
Hezbollah has far weaker weapons that do not go far and does not do much damage.
Hezbollah gives warning where it will attack while Israel doesnít and when it does they people can not leave since they blew up the bridges, roads, and the entire entire infrastructure since as they said they donít care and think everyone guilty.
Israel has been condemned many times by the UN and has killed and attacked many UN convoy and UN bases which the UN says its intentional even though Israel says itís not.
We have to pay from our US tax dollar to fix Lebanonís 2.5 billion (and increasing every day) in damages and we are also paying for the weapons that both use, and some will pay their lives for this war.
Also an odd thing is that a lot of Hezbollah attacks are as you know hitting the northern part of Israel which is partly empty and many Arab people live which well over 30 Arabs have died in Israel from that.

This guy from England in this news site says it well (video)
http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html

As Christ said negative actions being more negative action and whoever supports this war in any way is not Christian in their actions despite the majority of Americans fare Christians and how the majority supports it.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
what? what?! WHAT?! ok, whoa whoa whoa. God SAID to Abraham, Isaac, AND Jacob, "Those who bless you will be blessed." and the opposite of that. Israel is still God's chosen people, never forget that. the bible predicted this war with Lebanon, don't remember exactly what it said. still trying to find the verse.

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jestermax

Member

Posts: 1064
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 06-21-2006
check out Luke 21:9.
just relax and let God do his part
jestermax

Member

Posts: 1064
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 06-21-2006
just commenting on your comparison with canada... canada is an open country that lets nearly anyone in. countries don't just go to war because one country has someone in it that noone likes. if it happens, it is generally the government's fault for refusing to do anything about it or let other helps to fix the problem.
luke

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Posts: 311
From: I use your computer as my second Linux box
Registered: 10-30-2005
I agree that there are many lies floating around today's age of 'information' especially during wartime(I do not however agree with much of what you say) and political elections. As I see it, this is just the latest in the long cycle of violence in that area of the world; not much 'we' can do about it. Although, I sure that it didn't seem mostly like an era of the truth being whatever is said the most often in the news; because this 'information' age is merely an age of disinformation!

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Use Logic first since Christianity = Logic.
This is why I say people should know the history and the entire bible and not nit pick since people do take things the wrong way.

NO that's the Protestant distortion, since Jews are not Gods chosen people as I stated many times and explained.

"Judaism attributes an irremediable inferior animal nature to all "Nations," namely all non-Jews, inferior by divine ordination to the "chosen" members of the Tribe."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misanthropy
This is why Christ took away their status.

Quotes form the bible.
ďMt 21:43 "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you (Jews), and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."Ē
You see itís "taken away" key words. GUESS WHO! Christ says in the bible about who brings forth good fruits.

"ď8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do...." No good fruits their.

"Ye have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you." Deuteronomy 9:24
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Acts 7:51 Paul

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city..." (Rv 22: 18,19)
As you see they are taken out.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." (Mt 23:15)Ē
That the Jews did not spread the word and wanted to be the only ones to be saved while other dammed and so Christ took the privilege away from them to give to another to spread the God words. Being chosen doesnít mean u go to heaven but to having the "authority" to spread it which most people donít have the authority and distort and spread it anyway which we get 1/2 truths.

And many more harsher words. But lets not get into that and just look at the facts.

I think people should read the religious post about the origins of Christianity in how it contradicts with Israel.
http://www.christiancoders.com/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum9&topic=000233

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
Warsong,

I disagree with you whole-heartedly. The nation of Israel was, is and will always be the chosen people of God. The Kingdom of God was only taken away from those Jews who rejected Christ. Jesus was and is the "King of the Jews".

'Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.' Matt 27:11

Yes, Jesus had some not nice things to say to the scribes and Pharisees, but they deserved that because they were poor religious leaders. He was not saying that to the Jews as a whole group. In fact, most of his personal preaching and ministry was directly to the Jews. There was no wholesale condemnation of the nation of Israel as you suggest. In fact, God's promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) are eternal.

There has been conflict between Christianity and the Jews. Mainly it has been Christians with faulty theology like yours oppressing and murdering Jews. Anti-Jewish sentiment, unfortunately, stems out of faulty Christian theology. The great Martin Luther had one major failing, he did not extend love towards Jews, but hatred and mistreatment. The mistreatment of Jews in Europe extended over centuries, culminating in Holocaust during World War 2, where millions of Christians and church leaders in Germany and surrounding areas turned a blind eye to the mass slaughter of God's chosen people. Christians who support Israel, an eternally oppressed people, are helping heal wounds that have seperated Jews and Christians for so long.

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buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
yay Steveth45!!

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LOL wrong, but still amusing.
"Some described the Israeli air attack is example of Israeli state terrorism that targeted operations to assassinate individuals opposing occupation, by having also targeted ambulances of relief aid workers and even journalists in Lebanon." An entire state

"Israel, an aggressive nation and a brutal occupier with advanced military power, is a country that likes to portray itself as a victim, and that its actions are in reaction to "terrorists" actions, and has succeeded in convincing some of this point of view. Few weeks ago, Switzerland, in a major declaration, said that Israel is in violations of humanitarian law, Geneva Convention. Also, a UN human rights committee approved investigating Israel in this regard."
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Here is a question. Who is worse the ones that do bad or the ones that follow the ones that do bad? You cant blame evil for doing its job but the fools that follow evil. Some replies are insane and close minded. Did anyone listen to the video and research more? I bet not but people want to throw opinions out.
People should first dispute each point than nit pick as they always do since you can nto win one point when 90% of your points are wrong. Its like putting out a fire in one room than the entire home and you think you won? That's insane. People are Christian through their actions and go to heaven through their actions and not jut saying they are christian and supporting evil actions since that would make them evil as well. Even the apostles said that faith alone is NOTHING without actions. This is basic logic.

Steve
You are spreading lies now with no evidence. You ignored the main points because you ignore history and the facts of both sides of the story. You can not make fair and rational choices with Ĺ truths. Listen to the video on the link and see. Christ also had apostolic succession but you ignore than too. Orthodox didnít persecute people like u think but have been persecuted by Catholics, protestants, Muslims, and Jews. It's better to deal with the Hindus and Buddhist than the others. If you donít know your history then don't bother replying posting about these matters. First know your history and then you will see something scary, but they don't teach that in protestant circles since they want to forget it, and they forget that people that don't look at history will be doomed to repeat it and sure enough many have been killed by protestant leaders than anyother it seems lately. But I'll post on that when I have time in the religious forum.

Jest
Because they can not do anything about it and Israel is making more people side with Hezbollah and increasing more terrorists. The Muslim and Jewish religion believes in vengeance and an eye for an eye which is against Christian views.

Luke
There was no much violence 50 years ago. Even the UN ever since Israel came condemned them for war crimes but people here in the US think they are immune to propaganda.

If you believe in democracy and Christianity then you have to agree with what the majority of the world and civilized says, if not if not then you only have your self to blame since some throw out rational and facts or things to look blissful. Life is not pretty and people that portray it as it make it worse.

Jews are not the bad guys since they do their job, the ones that cause the most problems are Christians for aiding bad actions. Just like how we canít blame a wolf for being hungry, but we should blame the Shepard for not taking care of its flock. I bet some people here even agree that the US attack on the Christian country Kosovo was good and itís a shame how people judge without knowing all the facts.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 11, 2006).]

CheeseStorm
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Posts: 521
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Registered: 11-28-2004
If Israel were wiped out, do you think the terrorists would stop there? They'd just start building schools and hospitals and never bother us again?
buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
LOL!! 'ok Mr President, just move your troops on out and we'll leave you alone... UNTIL WE'RE DONE BUILDING OUR SILOS TO TAKE YOU OUT!!' lol.

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WARNING:

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NetCog

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Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
Use Logic first since Christianity = Logic.

heh


Firstly,

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
"Which ever Christian fight or gives money to Israel is not a Christian weather they like it or not."

....that has nothing whatsoever to do with being a "christian" .... as in a christian is a person saved by belief in Christ Jesus.

Secondly, There is a principle in life, in business at least, that if 9 out of 10 friend advise against something....do it. I believe it was Disney....and he was correct more or less within 5%. Just because the "world" thinks one way...doesn't make it the right way....


As for Israel, I don't know everything that is going on as if I've been following it intently...but I do know that I 'see' Israel out with it's army, in the field, identified.....where is Hezbollah??? Israel is going out of it's way to try to protect those it's fighting against....paper drops warning of an impending attack???!!!???

As for UN politicians issuing claims and warnings....well....suffice to say anything a UN member says carries about as much weight of authority as a feather on a scale. I can't come up with the word at the moment but the UN has no (credibility, authority, meaningful presence, standard to judge, imperative, whatever the word is). It's like your average 8 year old local boy scout weighing in on the price of gas and how it will affect the economy....meaningless.

The trend to build up the enemy as they are the victims, as if they are the ones with the moral imperative is sickening.

okay now back to the first part of this post regarding "Logic"...

The Bible says a lot in favor of wisdom. Reading Psalms and especially Proverbs will show a lot. The New Testament includes a number of references to the benefit of wisdom and why it should be desired.

quote:
Romans 16:19
19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.

Yet...

quote:
1 Corinthians 3:18-20
18 Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"; 20 and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

Also 1 Corinthians 2

quote:
1 Corinthians 1:17-25
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospelónot with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.


[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 12, 2006).]

BlazeQ

Member

Posts: 260
From: USA
Registered: 05-11-2002
quote:
The majority of the world is against this war but only Israel, US, and England are for it while the world condemns them for their bad action.
Don't you find it funny that the major Christian/Judaic nations support this, and the increasingly anti-Christian/Judaic nations support Hezbollah? The quoted logic is akin to saying: Most of the world thinks Jesus is a fake, therefore he must be a fake. Fallacy in logic known as ad populum, or "Everybody else is doing it."

quote:
Which ever Christian fight or gives money to Israel is not a Christian weather they like it or not. and its kind of odd how the orthodox church and the pope are against what Israel is doing and asks for money to help the 2,000 victims in Lebanon which many of them have been Christian that got injured and killed, while the protestant churches like Pat Robertson asks for money to give to Israel which is wrong. As you see both say they are Christian but only one does what is proper.
Two fallacies here. Ad populum once again and also ad verecundiam, or appeal to authority: "The pope and orthodox church said it's true, so it must be true."

quote:
I know some people will be confused but donít take thing at face value. If someone give you poop do not accept it since they give it to you because they are benefiting from you believing it.
In other words, you want us not to believe what others say, but to believe what you say? I'm also curious how you believe your sources are any more valid than anyone elses.

quote:
For example in comparison.:
If terrorists were in Canada should we attack all of Canada? Obviously no. The same with the IRA (Irish republican army in how Dublin didnít get boomed and destabilized.

Hezbollah has over 10 times fewer weapons than Israel.
Hezbollah has far weaker weapons that do not go far and does not do much damage.
Hezbollah gives warning where it will attack while Israel doesnít and when it does they people can not leave since they blew up the bridges, roads, and the entire entire infrastructure since as they said they donít care and think everyone guilty.
Israel has been condemned many times by the UN and has killed and attacked many UN convoy and UN bases which the UN says its intentional even though Israel says itís not.
We have to pay from our US tax dollar to fix Lebanonís 2.5 billion (and increasing every day) in damages and we are also paying for the weapons that both use, and some will pay their lives for this war.
Also an odd thing is that a lot of Hezbollah attacks are as you know hitting the northern part of Israel which is partly empty and many Arab people live which well over 30 Arabs have died in Israel from that.


Congrats. 2 out of 2 for bad analogies and false information. The British government actually fought against the IRA. What is the Lebanese government doing? And I guess since Al Qaeda is soooooo much smaller and ill equipped than the US, we should just let them blow up our planes.

quote:
As Christ said negative actions being more negative action and whoever supports this war in any way is not Christian in their actions despite the majority of Americans fare Christians and how the majority supports it.
My my, the threat of exclusion and hell because of support for the war; Sounds like ad metam, or appeal to fear: "If you don't believe this, then this bad thingy will happen." Quite a dichotomy there.

quote:
Because they can not do anything about it and Israel is making more people side with Hezbollah and increasing more terrorists. The Muslim and Jewish religion believes in vengeance and an eye for an eye which is against Christian views.
Do you have unbaised sources for this, or are you going to claim this as common knowledge (sorry, yet another fallacy).

quote:
There was no much violence 50 years ago. Even the UN ever since Israel came condemned them for war crimes but people here in the US think they are immune to propaganda.
See above and also Hasty Generalization

quote:
Jews are not the bad guys since they do their job, the ones that cause the most problems are Christians for aiding bad actions. Just like how we canít blame a wolf for being hungry, but we should blame the Shepard for not taking care of its flock. I bet some people here even agree that the US attack on the Christian country Kosovo was good and itís a shame how people judge without knowing all the facts.
Wow, that might be a record. Non sequitur, hasty generalization, ad metam, ad hominem, and a couple more no doubt.

quote:
"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
I couldn't help noticing your sig. Let me ask, is posting this fun topic that is meant to enlighten people, a good intention?

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BlazeQ - Creation in Digital
"I suggest you watch your back 'cause I'll be chewing on it." - Diego >-)

[This message has been edited by blazeq (edited August 12, 2006).]

Simon_Templar

Member

Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
Few things show the blindness and wickedness of the world as its attitudes and actions towards Israel. Israel has not done anything that any other nation on earth hasn't done, most of them recently. They have been repeatedly attacked, and yet every time they try to defend themselves, everyone in the world (except the US) comes down on them as the agressor.

My first comment on this whole situation was that if we had people running the world in 1940 like those running it now... we'd all be speaking german and there wouldn't be any jews or slavs left.

Then I thought better of that comment, and remembered my history a little better, and my next comment was.. the reason we had WWII and the reason 6 million jews and millions of slavs died, Poland, Czekoslovakia (sp), Austria, and France suffered at the hands of the Nazi's in the 1940's is because we had those kind of people running the world in the 1930's.

If we had done what we ought to have 30 years ago, or 20 years ago... this situation would not exist now... putting it off now is only ensuring that we will face it again in the future when our enemies are stronger and we are weaker.

Restraint and mercy are much to be valued in any nation at war... but our world today has confused lack of resolve with mercy. In war you fight with honor, but you fight to win. Israel in this engagement violated the first rule of war, one which the US has forgotten since WWII. If you fight, you fight to win. If you go to war, you crush the enemy as hard and as fast as possible.
The kind of "restraint" which is trumpted and called for by the world today is simlpy foolishness. It isn't merciful, it doesn't spare people, it doesn't bring peace. It prolongs strife and conflict by depriving everyone of victory.

Peace is not the absence of armed conflict. Peace is victory.

Further, in this particular conflict everyone is in a big hurry to pardon lebanon. I'm not. The reason Hezbollah is there and operates with impunity is because Lebanon allows it, and even encourages it. In my opinion the goverment of Lebanon is 'in bed' with Hezbollah and is complicit in their actions.
If the US had any sense we would have stood with Israel and the Lebenese christian malitias during the civil war to achieve victory. Because we didn't, the whole country has been sold out to the enemy. Make no mistake we are in a war wether we realize it or not, and we have an enemy.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
You want evidence of violent anti-semitism in the Orthodox church? Just read "Against the Jews" by "Saint" John Chrysostom, a 4th century Archbishop of Constantinople considered a saint by the Orthodox church. Here is an excerpt: (He is referring to the Jews)
"Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter."

Amazingly, some try to defend these writings with arguments like, "most of the offensive statements were just rhetorical devices".

Ha.

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Ashton_JX

Member

Posts: 156
From: Springfield, Oregon, USA
Registered: 02-21-2005
Warsong, what do you have against the Jewish people as a whole? Why judge an entire culture off of what the government is doing? Do you hate Jewish people? Have they hurt you somehow?

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1 Corinthians 15:58 So, my dear brothers and sisters, be strong and steady, always enthusiastic about the Lordís work, for you know that nothing you do for the Lord is ever useless. (NLT)

Tired of loosing your work for all eternity? Jesus Saves! You should too :P (liek every 1 1/2 seconds) This is a message from teh save the data foundation, and from (CTRL + S): Because da data is y00r future. Maybe.

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Wow, BlazeQ, loved yer comments.

Simon - I'm sooo glad you commented on this, I always love to hear what you have to say on things.

Warsong... what's yer beef dude? You're picking a fight with Jews and Christians both. Umm, and you're attacking all of them. Which is kinda funny, because I'm sure you don't represent people like you.

So, basically, person A does something wrong. So, everyone who believes the same thing person A does, is now a heretic and false and basically evil in your eyes. Right, ok, I don't think I even need to comment on that.

ALSO, who on Earth are you to say whether anyone is Christian or not! "If you give them money, you aren't Christian" What if I said because you aren't giving them money, you aren't Christian. OOOO Becomes a word fight now, and the person who gets bored first loses.

Also, heh, Christianity does not = logic. DUH. It = having Christ as your savior. I mentioned something in a topic earlier about Methodism. Logic is waaaay below the word of God. AKA the Bible. I don't give a twopence about your logic, Warsong, since you seemingly only want to destroy and hurt. You obviously do, I don't see what these posts are for if not to try and hurt someone.

Also, Jews ARE God's chosen people. Read yer own verse silly!!! He said "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you" Nothing about no longer being the chosen people. You can't INFER it, cus who knows what God has in store? And yes, he was talking to the EVIL Jews, the ones who weren't doing right.

ANALOGY - 15 out of 20 students fail a test. The teacher turns to them and says "Man you guys are stupid, looks like I'll see you all next semester" Oviously this doesn't apply to the 5 who passed. Why would Christ condemn people who did things the right way? And in RV, it doesn't say he took them away. Does it? HEHE, nope, it doesn't. Besides, a lot of the Jews get to live through the tribulation, to try to get them to believe in Christ.

Yes, we can blame evil for doing its job. That's like saying the Devil made me do it, a load of horse poop. I see no basis for your arguements but a bad temper and misknowledge about Bible verses.

IF the world as a whole is WRONG, then why do I have to side with them? Seems kinda silly to me.

Warsong, I'm sorry to be so assanine in my response, but you weren't very polite either. So, until you show me some actual evidence from the Bible and stuff that isn't distorted to fit your views, I'll tend to ignore what you say as a misguided person trying to decieve us. A "False" prophet. We are warned against false prophets. 1. What does the Bible say? 2. What does Tradition say? 3. What does your experience tell you? 4. what does Logic say?

THERE IS A REASON THAT LOGIC IS NUMBER 4, IT IS THE LEAST IMPORTANT.

Anyhoo, enough out of me, it's probly a waste of time anyhow.

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

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jestermax

Member

Posts: 1064
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 06-21-2006
good job Max, that was along the lines of what i wanted to say but couldn't put the words together.

quote:

Because they can not do anything about it and Israel is making more people side with Hezbollah and increasing more terrorists. The Muslim and Jewish religion believes in vengeance and an eye for an eye which is against Christian views.

warsong:
you seem to be attacking only Israel. what about the other 20 countries doing the same things or worse? you're the one complaining about lies during war times, so you should be aware that the world still revolves while two countries are at war.

secondly, what does comparing Muslims and Jews to Christians have to do with anything? Are you implying that because you believe that you are God's voice, you need to destroy all other cultures? i just don't see much that you say as anything but blind hate. Normally i wouldn't care, you can go do your own thing but you seem very intent on attacking other people and making sure that everyone shares your views.

fearless

Member

Posts: 91
From: Romania, Tg Mures
Registered: 11-26-2005
I have to agree with BudBoy, steveth45 and the others.
Indeed God has some judgment pending for (Non-Christian) Jews but it's not for Christians to make that happen.
"judgment belongs to God" Deuteronomy 1:17

[This message has been edited by fearless (edited August 14, 2006).]




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Registered:
Replying is easy but boring since itís simple. Can anyone else reply since people so far lie, give weak arguments, and ignore the points. Most people donít know the full story and reply and donít know what a Jew is since some say itís a religion, culture, society, ideology, etc.
Lebanon is a republic in which the three highest offices are reserved for members of specific religious groups: the President must be a Maronite Catholic Christian. In 1932 it was mostly Christian, but Israel helped push them out by attacking them since to many here Israel can do whatever bad things it wants to Christians since they have a free pass to do anything bad in their eyes which is twisted logic. Not much protestants which is obvious that most protestants attack always other Christians and have killed more than any other Christian and non Christian religion but thatís the hypocrisy of protestant leaders to say they are Christian while doing unchristian things, but nothing new. ďThe country is not only where Christianity intermingles with Islam, but Lebanon is also an Arab gateway to Europe and a European bridge to the Arab world.Ē

"The one who tells the stories rules the world." - Hopi proverb
Adams said, "This Constitution was intended for a moral and religious people, it is wholly inadequate for the governance of any other."

You people ignore fact and side with anti Christian ways. Some in here that Christians are chosen people other say that Jews are, others say no one is, etc. Even Christ said not to interpret the bible on your own and whoever does so is against Christ. Gambling is a sin you know and gambling with information is far worse than wasting your money at a Casio since lies spread and cause more death and destruction.

If you believe that Jews are chosen then you should believe in this too. Hey the stink is not far from the **** .
"While Christianity maintains that the animal ("sinful") nature is inherent in all human beings since the FALL, Judaism attributes an irremediable inferior animal nature to all "Nations," namely all non-Jews, inferior by divine ordination to the "chosen" members of the Tribe."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misant

I think this all stems from lack of education that the US has since the worst student in another country is one of the brightest students in the states. Which there is a Jewish saying that goes something like ď in a land of blind people the one with one eyes is the kingĒ The US not that good in its school accomplishments and some countries they are better in is because the other countries donít lover the standers in the education. India, china, Europe, etc are taking the high tech jobs from Americans for a reason and not just lower pay but better quality. I know the truth is harsh which is why itís not said which is why we have politically correct thing since people canít handle the truth and that just makes things worse.

Is this a Christian act? Does this sound like chosen people material to you?
"As Israel continues the bombing campaign that has turned parts of Lebanon into rubble, environmentalists are warning of widespread and lasting damage. Spilled and burning oil, along ...a country traditionally known for its clean air and scenic greenery..." If someone stole your land, killed and badly injured your family and friend, poisoned your environment, destroyed infrastructure, destroy 2000 year old historical sites, have billion of dollars in destroyed property, etc and thatís just the nice parts and do you think that will help bring more peace even though both believe in vengeance in their religion?

Can you imagine Christ going in a tank and doing that? If you can't see Christ doing it then you should not do it as well.

==========================================
Cheese=========
Out of everyone that replies it seems that you are just as Christian as the others, or are they just as antichristian as you lol
There would be less terrorists just like how before Israel was their, before they slaughtered the Muslims like pigs. Even on the news it says how Israel spy on the US and other countries, most countries that live near them complain about Israel. We are lucky to be far away from both nuts, itís just that Israel choose a crazy country to attack since they know no one will care and guess what no one does that lives on the other side of the world! If there were no Muslims they would target others just like that have done before.
ďBut the dirty little secret in America is that anti-Semitism is no longer a problem in society; itís been replaced by a rampant anti-ChristianityĒ
ĒAnd I blame my fellow Jews. When it comes to pushing the multicultural, anti-Christian, agenda, you find Jewish judges, Jewish journalists, and the ACLU, at the forefront.Ē
ďThis put the Israelis "inside the decision-making loop" to "try to influence the outcome." CBSĒ

Netcog==============
It shows that you are ignorant of the matter which you admit, but you reply with Ĺ *** opinions which.
You donít know what a Christian is
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Keep working iniquity and keep not being humble to not know what is going on. You can not listen when you talk.

How do you think the bible was made? It was a majority vote that decided what should stay and go, so not what will you look for fake books? Even Disney as you quoted said things against Jews, the irony that Jews run his company now and make more immoral movies with their subsidiaries like touchtone like the movie ďthe crying gameĒ you must have liked that movie how the women turns out to be a guy right?

All of the Middle East now and the rest of the Christian world are against Israel even more. Is it logical to destroy an entire country to get terrorists? It is like taking a gun and grenade to kill a fly in your home which only an insane person would do, but if they do it only to another personís home then they are evil.

As for the UN they are no angles but Israel is far worse. The UN has been targeted by Israel and they are not Muslims doing any terrorist attacks but bystanders evaluating the situation. When they object to what terrorist acts Israel is going then they get killed. Does china, Sweden, Canadian, etc like that their men are being attacked by Israel while working under the UN? If only these evil things can happen to you it seems so that you understand since you prefer the evil way and you will get what you wish for one day.

Speaking of the 2000 year old historical site, Jews wanted it destroyed before the war and so they found an excuse to destroy it right after the worlds tax dollars helped to rebuild it while our other tax dollars helped give Israel weapons to destroy it.

Blazeq=========
No you are wrong. The majority of non Christians and Christians around the world are against Israel. Sheesh the president of Lebanon is Christian and many Christian communities attacked. Itís a typical protestant rule to act unchristian, just like how almost all crusades they attacked the Christian Orthodox Church which hurt Christianity.

And you think that protestant leaders that killed more act more Christian and less infallible? Peoples action are judges more and so if you compare actions the ones that are for the war have done more atrocities than the others have do not support it. If you want a war monger go convert to Islam or Judaism, since Christianity has no room for warmongers.

You donít have to believe me but think about both sides. I gave links, history, examples and no one listens intentionally since they donít want to believe. But you have said false things withy no proof which I disputed anyway and you want others to believe. Here is a simple question, who has killed more in the last 100 years the Protestants denominations, Catholics, Hindu, and Buddhist? And would you agree that the ones that killed more is more Christian or less? Itís a simple questions so donít try to confuse it and lie.

I know the Brits went against the IRA. Do you say that the Lebanese Gov should destabilize the entire country and kills thousands of its people just like Israel did? Besides people are siding with Hezbollah more since Israel has been attacking them for many decade but you again ignores the facts that I gave on the links.

The facts are the facts, if you sin a lot what do you think will happen that you will go to heaven? If you canít handle the truth then you are to blame and no one else. "Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity." So what you say is supporting iniquity and Christ.

You donít know that the Muslim and Jewish religion believe in an eye for an eye? I kind of figures you didnít know what you were talking about. Well itís not what people know itís what people donít know that makes them say what they do.
If you are going to reply again you better have links and you better say the other side of the story as well since it shows you donít know both sides of the story since you are one sided. Count Folke Bernadotteís United Nations' mediator in Palestine. 1948 he mediate between the Arabs and the Israelis and said that "the right of the Arab refugees to return to their homes in Jewish controlled territory at the earliest possible date." the next day He doe killed by the Israelis. Then the UN replied and said about them "a cowardly act which appears to have been committed by a criminal group of terrorists in Jerusalem while the United Nations representative was fulfilling his peace-seeking mission in the Holy Land". Yeah sounds like chosen people material. Israel has a long list or massacres, atrocities, genocide, war crimes all documents by the UN and countries.
You defend the [people that generalize but ignore the facts which is kind of restarted. Here is a generalization, Israel says there are no innocent Lebanese as the rabbi said, and their actions speak louder than words.
Yes hell is paved with good intentions just like the bible quote next to it that says the same. This post is to present the other side of the story, but your good intentions to igno9re the facts is what supports evil which helps make you evil sorry to say since you support many unchristian acts as stated at the top before the reply. If you think invading others territory is good and killing them then that is your believe but donít call yourself Christian if you do since a Christian is what a Christian does.

And I thought I would originally just give some news info from another side to make people think but no one wants to think and only defend. Kind of like how Christ tried to convert the Jews and they didnít want to think but defend. If people want to be Christian fine but donít say you are and act like another religion that is anti Christian. This post was not about Jews about logic.

Simon===========
Nice wording that makes it seem believable. But still wrong. Lol Again as I said before you learned a lot from a year ago but itís not what you know itís what you donít know that makes you say what you say. Read the replies since that will help explain some things. But honestly now, here is an analogy, if you put a naked women in a room full of criminals and rapists can you blame the criminals for what they will do? Obviously not since you blame the person that put the women in their. Now if you go to some ones home and you kill a member of their family and take a room in the middle of the home and say itís yours since do you expect peace or violence to happen?
Their would be Jews after 1940 if that happened since Jews from the stated heavily funded the Nazi party and Jews in the states have been funding Muslims in their country and to come to this and other countries. This is politics so this might be out of your jurisdiction. And yeah we had those kinds of people back then you as you stated. But more non Jews died than Jews and more orthodox people died then other Christians, and even now more orthodox people get killed and Protestants in the state blindly love it.

Steve=====================
I see you changed your story around since you canít defend it since you said oppressing and murdering and not you just say itís anti-Semitism. If you keep twisting words you will get burned. Sure every Christian religion went against Jews since they got massacred by Jews first ruthlessly which you ignore. And now you think you will go a saint and insult him? Hey is more Christian than everyone here combined but you think you can cast the first stone makes you a hypocrite. Only a food will insult saints. If they are not worthy then who the ones you consider chosen people that sell you gay cowboy movies and slaughter and attack Christianity every day? Go read the bible and see that there such things as saints.
But since you want quotes he also said
"The Jews do not worship God but devils"[Sermon I:3, based on John 8:19] "8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."
John8:44"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." "Another prophet hinted at this when he said: "Israel is as obstinate as a stubborn heifer". And still another called the Jews "an untamed calf"."

A saint calls some the devil
" Tell me this. When you stand indicted before God's tribunal, what reason will you be able for considering the Jews' witchcraft more worthy of your belief than what Christ has said? God said that the devil is a murderer; they say that he can cure diseases, in contradiction to God's word. When you accept their charms and incantations, you actions show that you consider the Jews more worthy of your belief than God, even if you do not say it in so many words." lol

Marin Luther said far more bad things.
"They are real liars and bloodhounds who have not only continually perverted and falsified all of Scripture with their mendacious glosses from the beginning until the present day. Their heartís most ardent sighing and yearning and hoping is set on the day on which they can deal with us Gentiles as they did with the Gentiles in Persia at the time of Esther. Oh, how fond they are of the book of Esther, which is so beautifully attuned to their bloodthirsty, vengeful, murderous yearning and hope. The sun has never shone on a more bloodthirsty and vengeful people than they are who imagine that they are Godís people who have been commissioned and commanded to murder and to slay the Gentiles. In fact, the most important thing that they expect of their Messiah is that he will murder and kill the entire world with their sword. They treated us Christians in this manner at the very beginning through out all the world. They would still like to do this if they had the power, and often enough have made the attempt, for which they have got their snouts boxed lustil" xaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxa
Well Protestants are funny hypocrites but besides that, both made good points and peoples actions speak louder than words. People here donít believe Christ, saints, other or your church leaders, history, or anything from a Christian side and only from non Christian views. No wonder non Christians want to destroy the bible which they explained it quite well, but still more orthodox people got killed before during and after by Jews.

Read what I said to the others to understand the reply better since I know you will take it out of context.

Asthton============
Nothing against them, I am against the fake Christians. I only showed news facts, historical quoted from both sides which the truth doesnít make them look good which you admit. The truth is not pretty and only people that want to be in bliss was ignorant.

MAX==================
Their comments are weak and if you think it was good then you know even less.

If you see person A doing evil against person B does that make you evil or good? Evil happened when good men do nothing and when you let and justify evil to happen then it makes you evil too. This is basic logic which you do not or can not comprehend it seems.
Christianity is logical and I explained it before in the other posts which others understood also the fact you have to know its origins which you also ignored that post too.
Read the other replies to answer the other parts of your questions.

Chosen people for what? Only people that spread gods words are chosen. How will you understand when you donít even care to believe what the inspired word of God is. A few words can not persuade you to understand since you have done far astray. Be humble and go back to your Christian searching and history. Most of the apostles left and went to the Orthodox nations to help spread the word since they knew it was similar to what Christ said since that is what influenced Christianity.

You can say the world is wrong but who has done more unchristian things and so which one is more likely you can trust? The US is has more than 80% Christians but mostly non Christians actions are done by fake Christians and by non Christians as stated before.
You ignore the majority of the bible and read some things wrong since you have no real guidance which is why you say that. Read the other replies which explain the rest if you can read it all and remember all the facts.

I am being polite, itís just that the truth is not nice. Ask a specific question and ill asker you.

Jest============
I am saying the news and the other side of the story, if anything everyone is attacking me for being the messenger and reply with lied and inaccurate info. Israel has done far worse. I donít care if people agree or not but I do care that people think. When people do unchristian things then how can they be Christian? If the apostles killed and raped and did every sin imaginable would they be still Christian and go to heaven? People are judged by actions and not by being chosen and get a free pass. Wrong Christian sects help bring more destruction the world since they side with bad views. No one is choosing God first but what politics say.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

jestermax

Member

Posts: 1064
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 06-21-2006
Being a messenger of the world's news doesn't make you any holier then being the one in the tank, smashing buildings. Love is what makes christians; love for God and love for one another. I don't see a lot of love here. I see you attacking everyone else here because they don't have the time to devote to writing full blown responses. Not that i support quick responses with little thought but that is not my point here. God is powerful enough to defend his will and does not need zealots to go on crusades on his people. I acknowledge there are some sects that don't seem to be anywhere near what God's word says but it is sometimes very difficult to distinguish this, at least difficult without descernment through the holy spirit. I agree with you that people should be well informed and that the North American education systems are extremely lacking, however your stances are obnoxious at best. I am not necessarity disagreeing with your points, i have no read over them all very closely or validated the information. I am disagreeing with your methods and frankly i find them hypocritical. For someone going on about how "non-christian" people act, you aren't giving anyone an example.
I've finished what i have to say and i will continue to pray for everyone here so that we will all be able to think clearly and not be at each others' throats for things that no one here can affect.

Luke 21:9




Posts:
From:
Registered:
The love to invade another country is not love or good. To attack a country to instigate a conflict and on the smallest excuse start a fight is a pathetic and cowardly way to act but effective since many eat it up. Hey took me a while to reply since I was busy but you complain now that I reply to everyone since if I didnít then people would complain. Next time I guess I'll give one small reply to everyone. Can you blame me since since insinuate thing about me that is not true and then expect me for give them cany coated answers is odd. every action has a reaction.

I say if anyone replies with more stupid analogies ill show you what harsh really is, since if some canít take nice then and want everyone to look pretty then they will be in a world of hurt when reality hits them which is why many ignore the facts since they are not pretty. God gives people fee will and people decide to be saved by their action. God didnít kill all the people in Lebanon people that support it did. Blaming God is a just an excuse to run away form responsibility. I am being blunt and not insulting, I am just abrasive and compared to others I donít make up lies (sin) as some have done which is worse. Letís not be PC and blame the facts that they are not nice. If Christ came in the flesh again the #1 people that would crucify him would be Christians, and thatís the sad reality of it all. Think about it if someone came out and called Jews the devils like Christ did do you know what you happen and how many Christians would attack him. People want a PC Christ, and deep down you and everyone else knows thatís true. If Christ was not Jewish the bible would have been banned already.

You have to be a tactician of how the play the game to know how to win a war. Here is a strategy
Person A hits person B= person A is to blame and looks bad.
Update strategy 1
Person A hits person B and heals person B= Person A to blame but forgiven if they donít do again
Update strategy 2
Person A says person B hit them and person A hits person B = conflict since no evidence that person A was hit
Update strategy 3
Person A hits itself and blames person B= Person B is to blame but and eye is kept on person B actions
Update strategy 4
Person A pretends to be person B and hits person A= B to blame
Person A bothers person B and says bad things about it to cause a problems=B to blame
Person A etc etc many more strategies to have person B to blame.

If someone has over 3000 years of experience in war you would think they know how to play the game to get what they want especially to fool another that has less that 200 years of experience like America in international wars. If people canít do the math then itís not my fault since they donít get it.
For Israel to win a 6 day war shows that they know how to play the game.

People should be realistic and look for the answers first.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
1. On a somewhat personal note: Don't make assumptions about people you don't know, about what they like or dislike or how they spend their time. Because that's all it is...an assumption, very likely flawed at that.

2. Jew is or can be all three, certainly two - religion, ethnic, or perhaps social. Jew(s), Judaism is unique like that.

3.

quote:
When people do unchristian things then how can they be Christian? If the apostles killed and raped and did every sin imaginable would they be still Christian and go to heaven? People are judged by actions and not by being chosen and get a free pass.

To question 1: By believing in Him who was sent for us.
To question 2: Yes. Doing one sin or doing thousands....doesn't matter in regards to our eternal soul
To comment 3: The english is not conclusive that works are required for salvation. Reference is there but it does not stand alone without equitable counter, thus cannot be take at prime face value, if we believe "the Word of God is alive and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword..." The Word of God does not contradict itself. If two passages appear to do so, the truth much be searched for further. Yet at the same time the Word of God is not meant for intellectuals alone.

quote:

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23
"For all of us have become like one who is unclean and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." Isaiah 64:6
"As it is written, 'There is none righteous, not even one.' " Romans 3:10
"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin." John 8:34

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" John 3:16
"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." John 6:40
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him" John 3:36
"He who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." John 5:24
"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit" Titus 3:5


"And I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand." John 10:28
"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:17-19
"If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." 2 Timothy 12-14
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," John 1: 12
"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" Romans 9:1


www.biblegateway.com or www.crosswalk.com are two sites I've used for Biblical textual searches should you want to find these passages.


I have seen many of the passages that some use as indications of the possibility to lose salvation. I tend to hold them at a distance from their superficial conclusion considering the plethora of passages indicating humanity's position as sinful, Christ's payment of all sin, the indications of inability to lose salvation, and the fact that in english terms you cannot be 100% certain that a particular passages is talking about eternal life / salvation, mortal life, blessings and punishments for either, or whether they are talking about the mortal dead (everyone) or spiritual dead (just unbelievers).

I believe we can know for certain, or as certain as one can be, with study of the original Greek and Hebrew for passages for both 'sides'.

The point is this. Please stop claiming an action of choice or sin having nothing to do with acceptance or rejection of Christ's salvationary work on the cross is grounds for labeling of "Is Christian" or "Is not Christian".

Christians sin. Unbelievers sin. What's your point? The act of doing sin, when you boil it down to eternity, has nothing to do with anything. ** It's the being a sinful being with or without Sin's debt to God being paid. That's what the question of Christian or not is....the question has nothing to do with who you support internationally or who you support domestically. A feminazi could be a believer (christian), the pope could be a believer, the corner drunk could be a believer...the only 'action' that has any effect on our eternal direction is that of a choice - do we believe or not.

Salvation is not about a "free pass" to act as they will. Believers are free from the bondage of sin, from the final penalty of sin (state of being human with an old sin nature without Christ's payment for our debt to God) which is eternal spiritual 'death' or separation from God. But salvation, like repentance, is not a license to sin. Thus doing sinful deeds can and does have repercussions here on earth and most probably in heaven. But as one saved by Christ's work, there is nothing I can do which will affect my eternal state of life...potentially blessings in eternity but not my state of winding up eternally in God's presence.

Finally, the Old (and New) Testament is chock full of people who were "Christian" (Saved and in fellowship with God) and did a host of sins we might consider "shocking"... They lost the fellowship temporarily (or perhaps even unto mortal death - I don't remember Saul's ending) -and in a different manner than we do today- but they weren't suddenly destined for hell.


** EDIT ** from above...
" The act of doing sin, when you boil it down to eternity, has nothing to do with anything."
Because even if no one actually committed a sin past Adam and Eve, Christ still would have had to die to reconcile the human race to God.

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 15, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 15, 2006).]

steveth45

Member

Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:

Steve=====================
I see you changed your story around since you canít defend it since you said oppressing and murdering and not you just say itís anti-Semitism. If you keep twisting words you will get burned. Sure every Christian religion went against Jews since they got massacred by Jews first ruthlessly which you ignore. And now you think you will go a saint and insult him?

Sigh. I never changed my story around. This is what I originally said, "Mainly it has been Christians with faulty theology like yours oppressing and murdering Jews."

You interpreted that to mean that Orthodox christians in particular oppressed Jews, and that I was "ignoring history". I never said that. I spoke only of certain attitudes toward God's chosen people and the fruit of those attitudes. The writings of Chrysostom and others were used throughout Christendom to justify the violence and oppression. The reason I made light of Chrysostom's sainthood is that I agree, there is such a thing as a saint in the New Testament--it's every believer. That's right, there's no precedent set in the Bible for miracles or canonization to become a saint. Paul and other writers refer to the members of the various churches as "saints." It is traditional in the Catholic and Orthodox and a few other churches to elevate certain persons to the status of "Saint," but it is a superfluous title. "Saint" means "holy" or "set apart." All Christians are set apart for God and are saints. Do a word search on "saints", it is used quite liberally in the New Testament to refer to the believers as a group.

Oh yeah, I thought what you said was funny: "Only a food will insult saints." I've been called a lot of things, but not food.

------------------
+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
I would highly recommend getting
Anti-Semitism by R. B. Thieme, Jr.
http://rbthieme.org/anti-sem.htm
- free to order
- a small book, about paperback dimensions with 150 some pages

a couple of exerpts:

quote:

In his Epistle to the Romans, the Apostle Paul warns Christians against the folly of anti-Semitism. WIth the adven tof the Church Age, these believers had erroneously assume dthat God had no further use for the Jews; consequently neither had they. Paul counters their presumptusous perspectives with two questions:

~~~ "God has no rejected HIs people, has He?" Romans 11:1
~~~ "They did not stumble so as to fall, did they?" Romans 11:11

Paul's answer to both question is _me genoito_, a dogmatic, emphatic _no_! As the strongest negative in the Koine Greek, _me genoito_ should be translated "may it never be."


and (a slightly re-discovered perspective for me)

quote:

What of Palestine as a homeland for the Jews? THis, as we saw, is God's design for Israel's future. The present gathering of the Jews in israel is of no prophetic significance; is is _not the regathering_ of national Israel forcase in the Scriptures. The Israeli nation which exists today has man's , not God's, stamp of approval. Consequently, the present Jewish state is evaluated on its national and international policies, adherence to law, and the host of other criterion upon which we approve or disapprove the actions of any allied nation. Notably, since Israel's inception in 1948, the United States has mantained close diplomatic and political relations.
Where does the American Jew's allegiance belong? Is he obligated to ISrael because he is a Jew, or to America because he is an American? Some Zionists argue that every jew's loyalty should be directed toward the Jewish homeland. This is not so! Americans owe their allegiance to the flag of the United States. However, if an American Jew wishes to contribute to the support of Israel, he may do so on the same premis as he would any cause he deems worhty; but this should not be an arbitrary demand. An American Jew is in no way obligated to the Jewish nations.
As for the Christian's attitude toward Israel, there is no command in S cripture to reverence that nation as some sacred cow. As with all nations Israel has good and bad policies and must stand or fall on its own merits. Neither malign nor deify Israel, but evaluate her policies as you would any other nation -- on the basis of your knowledge of Bible doctrine. Currently * Israel is one of the few countries that understands freedom through military victory.

Also in the book it describes Israel as an ethnic group since Abraham and a nation since Moses.

* my print was 1991

That said, and not having finished the book yet, I'm still in favor of Israel over that of Lebanon. Lebanon government might have some of the right stuff...but it doesn't have enough if it can't get rid of Hezbollah. I'd say the same thing of England if the IRA would be making the same threats as Hezbollah and Hamas w/ the rest of the fundamental Muslims on the US and the rest of the Western World.

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 15, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 15, 2006).]

jestermax

Member

Posts: 1064
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 06-21-2006
*confused expression*

warsong:
i did not say anything that had to do with promoting invasion of another country. i did not say that i approved of the actions of other countries. I DID say however that love is or is supposed to be the mark of a christian. You should not compare the actions of one person or country with another; sin is sin to God.

1 Corinthians 14:1 (NLT for readability, i don't want to hear anything about my choice of translation) --> "Let love be your highest goal!"

Colossians 3:12 (NLT) --> Make allowances for each other's faults, and forgive anyone who offends you.

My post was directed towards you, not any distanced country. I'm not saying that i am in any way perfect, but i'm saying that it is hard to tell whether you are a believer or not just from the way you act.

quote:

Can you blame me since since insinuate thing about me that is not true and then expect me for give them cany coated answers is odd. every action has a reaction.

Now tell me honestly, do you actually agree with what you just said? that because someone said something to you, you need to lash out at them?




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Steve=========== =
I know what you said which I quoted. But Jews were slaughtering Christians which is why you get comments like that. You canít blame them in your comfortable chair and we are not as experienced as them or have first hand knowledge. I didnít say you are a fool, I say only a fool will insult Saints. Honestly now can you blame them? People donít make up things you know so donít assume people to be crazy and anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitic is someone that judges someone without reason. Also there are the exceptions which donít count when you generalize.

So either which way your point was false.

Jes===========
I am saying what this topic is about. What you say is to stop a different side of the story since itís not nice. I agree with you but I donít see any love in the replies since they donít love people enough to object to the killing and make inaccurate accusations which is a double standard.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
I donít see much of that in others replies. If you want me to be meaner I can just ask you what the hell do you want? Stating the facts is not pretty and if being too kind of unchristian, since if you act kind to the devil then you are automatically doing evil to the good. Like the saying goes everything to moderation so letís not cry over spilt milk. If you think what I said was lashing out then how can you deal with real lashing? Christ lashed out more and insulted more but if you want me to call people evil and they are the devil just like Christ then tell me. You can check out the bible yourself. Itís not like we are curing each other off to go that extreme so lighten up. Everything is kosher. If people canít handle honest comments then how can they handle the bibles truths? I get what you mean but you should point out to others first then me since targeting only me is hypocritical since people insinuate bad things.

But if you want an example of ignorance (lacking information) lets take Netcog
Since talking to him goes in one ear and out the other and he asks the same questions which seems pointless to give him anything or waste time with him.
Colossians ď7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.ď
Now he thinks its ok to sin since he misinterprets and misquotes the passage. Which is not 9:1 but 8:1 that says
ďThere is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.Ē No condemnation for those in Christ, but he forget that to be in Christ you have to do what he says. Its like how can you be a police officer if you are the burglar? How can someone be under your command when they donít listen to you?
The guy has a slew of errors and I already explained the vast majority of them which he seems to need special attention but he doesnít listen to the answers already given so I wonít even bother. If you want to take a crack at him then go ahead.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
Steve=========== =
I know what you said which I quoted. But Jews were slaughtering Christians which is why you get comments like that. You canít blame them in your comfortable chair and we are not as experienced as them or have first hand knowledge. I didnít say you are a fool, I say only a fool will insult Saints. Honestly now can you blame them? People donít make up things you know so donít assume people to be crazy and anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitic is someone that judges someone without reason. Also there are the exceptions which donít count when you generalize.

So either which way your point was false.

Jes===========
I am saying what this topic is about. What you say is to stop a different side of the story since itís not nice. I agree with you but I donít see any love in the replies since they donít love people enough to object to the killing and make inaccurate accusations which is a double standard.

1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
I donít see much of that in others replies. If you want me to be meaner I can just ask you what the hell do you want? Stating the facts is not pretty and if being too kind of unchristian, since if you act kind to the devil then you are automatically doing evil to the good. Like the saying goes everything to moderation so letís not cry over spilt milk. If you think what I said was lashing out then how can you deal with real lashing? Christ lashed out more and insulted more but if you want me to call people evil and they are the devil just like Christ then tell me. You can check out the bible yourself. Itís not like we are curing each other off to go that extreme so lighten up. Everything is kosher. If people canít handle honest comments then how can they handle the bibles truths? I get what you mean but you should point out to others first then me since targeting only me is hypocritical since people insinuate bad things.

But if you want an example of ignorance (lacking information) lets take Netcog
Since talking to him goes in one ear and out the other and he asks the same questions which seems pointless to give him anything or waste time with him.
Colossians ď7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.ď
Now he thinks its ok to sin since he misinterprets and misquotes the passage. Which is not 9:1 but 8:1 that says
ďThere is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.Ē No condemnation for those in Christ, but he forget that to be in Christ you have to do what he says. Its like how can you be a police officer if you are the burglar? How can someone be under your command when they donít listen to you?
The guy has a slew of errors and I already explained the vast majority of them which he seems to need special attention but he doesnít listen to the answers already given so I wonít even bother. If you want to take a crack at him then go ahead.


You sound like Michael Moore...

------------------
"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
Point out where I said it's okay to sin and I'll change my mind...
Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Wow, hey guys, lets ignore him!!!! Since he obviously refuses to see ANY other way than his own.

Please, for the sake of the forum, lets ignore Warsong, his one-sided opinions don't seem to add anything to this place.

I'm tired of making valid points and having him just say - No, you're wrong, without showing me how.

It's all OPINIONS, OPINIONS, OPINIONS!!!
Warsong, you have yours, keep em to yourself, I don't care to hear your biased views on people or places or wars. Just shut up and leave us alone.

Thank you.

------------------
To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso




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Max don't be a hypocrite and I showed facts which you ignore. Here are some more FACTS!!!!!! Tell me are these Christian actions? the church said is a "Heresy" to say that people are chosen so if people donít want to be heretics they should know their facts better. Dispute these FACTS! As I said I get weak replies and I am the only one giving facts from news sources and historical references that pertain to the topic.


What about the good Jews that are against what Israel is doing so are they evil?
As I said the most stinking difference is how the church in the US says KILL KILL and use excuses to justify unchristian acts. These are no Christians as Christ said that come under his name, since they work iniquity and Christ wants them to far away from him. We should be praying for the poor Lebanese people and for this slaughter to stop than encouraging more destruction and death. In my opinion I do not see any Christians that wish to resolve things in an unchristian way. For Israel to kill the people that give humanitarian aid and food to the Lebanese is a disgrace.

There laws for a reason and for anyone to jump over laws in favoritism of an attacking state are hypocritical. Unbiased spectators stated the facts while the News that most people here listen to is biased since they are with them. Evil actions will not go unpunished despite some people think that they are immune.

"To your descendants, I shall give this land, from the River of Egypt to the great Euphrates River." Genesis 15:18 They want more land, so how do you get more land by asking Muslims to walk, no you use the strategy as stated before. Imagine if 1/2 of the US went to another country and they boot you out of your home. Lol Well the vast majority of Americans are broke so what will they do it that happened sit on the street and beg for money? I have to hand it people are amusing; I canít wait to see what next odd reply.

"Sharon believes in a greater Israel, and the only way to accomplish this objective is through an all out war.
There is no longer any room for doubt: violence begets violence. And it is within this macabre context that one must interpret Sharon's decision to employ more force. ďKind of odd how so many Christians support unchristian actions.

ďWe must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid Galilee of its Arab population." David Ben-Gurion 1948

" Hizbullah deserves as fair a hearing as Israel, though at the moment it most certainly is not getting it. " "Israel decided to create an expanded fortress state, where only Jewish blood and Jewish religion count." "BBC cameras, the port includes many sites far more ďstrategicĒ than the roads, bridges, milk factories and power stations Israel is destroying in Lebanon: it has the oil refinery, the naval docks and other installations that, yes, I cannot mention because of the censorship laws."Journalist Jonathan Cook based in Israel jkcook.net

"Foreign Ministry official says Israelis recklessly killing Lebanese"
"Israel Says War on Iraq Would Benefit the Region"James Bennet New York Times
"more apparent that Sharon is actually interested in creating a situation whereby he can expel hundreds of thousands of Palestinians from their land. In order to do so, he needs a war."

"We now know from reports in the U.S. media that the Israeli army had been planning such a strike against Lebanon for at least a year." They were just looking for any small excuse to attack.

"Since Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000, there have been hundreds of violations of the "blue line" between the two countries. The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) reports that Israeli aircraft crossed the line "on an almost daily basis" between 2001 and 2003, and "persistently" until 2006. These incursions "caused great concern to the civilian population, particularly low-altitude flights that break the sound barrier over populated areas". On some occasions, Hizbullah tried to shoot them down with anti-aircraft guns. "

"David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, once said, "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?""
http://www.thesimon.com/magazine/articles/canon_fodder/01196_it_time_stand_against_israel.html

"enable Israel and the United States to impose a capitulation on the Palestinians or, worse, effect an ethnic cleansing against hundreds of thousands of Palestinians."

"Meanwhile the battle for Iran is still in the early phases, the war in Iraq is going very badly for the Americans, Lebanon has been destroyed again, the Palestinians are suffering far worse than apartheid, the credibility and resources of the American Empire are draining away at an accelerating pace, and the hatred for Israel is bubbling over.

The Neocons and the Israeli Lobby have been working for years now in crusading fashion to bring the world to the verge of what is now a potential slow-burn world war. That is what they have been planning for some time largely because it fits the Israeli geopolitical design for the Middle East region. "
"is typical of the double standards repeatedly employed by the West in face of what has befallen the Palestinians,"
http://www.middleeast.org/premium/read.cgi?category=Magazine&standalone=0&num=717&month=3&year=2002&function=text

"the unwillingness in some quarters of the media to report the fact Ė reflects a poor understanding of Israel's historical use of violence.

The roll call of dishonor is long indeed, but its highlights include: the massacre of some 200 civilians in Tantura, as well as large-scale massacres in at least a dozen other Palestinian villages, during the 1948...."

The true reasons for these deaths are concealed from credulous observers by Israel's use of Orwellian language. When it says it is destroying the "infrastructure of terror," Israel means it is crushing all Arab resistance to its territorial ambitions in the region. The "infrastructure" includes most Arab men, women and children because they continue to support Ė against Israel's wishes Ė their peoples' rights to self-determination without interference from the Israeli army. " http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=9390

If Israel can exist only by destroying the neighboring countries, then it's a failure. the country should defend but also give security which they will never have that when they keep killing many countries citizens and acting like the victims. Israelis strategy is to destroy more, be fanatic, intolerant, violent, and hatred towards others in the utmost unchristian way. Their actions has hurt the entire world which is why everyone is upset, but people in the US do not understand it so well and put fuel to the fire which is why the US is number 2 on the list for instigating it which is what the majority of the Christian and non Christian world think because they see it first hand.

Do the math. Person A doesnít like Person B, but person B supports what person A does which in turn Hurts person B.

-------------
JUMP and you say how high?
"There is no such thing, at this date of the world's history, in America, as an independent press. You know it and I know itÖ The business of the Journalist is to destroy truth; To lie outright; To pervert; To vilify; To fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it and what folly is this toasting an independent press? We are the tools and vassals for rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and or lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes." New York Times former Chief of Staff 1950ís

"Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized. In the first it is ridiculed; in the second it is opposed; in the third it is regarded as self-evident."Arthur Schopenhauer

Jew taking the land back is against God, and they got booted for a reason. If they became Christian then it would have been just to go back to Israel but they did it in the most unholy way and everyone is paying for it despite most Americans blindly agreeing with it and ignoring the long list of unpleasant fact which many donít want to listen to since they want to be PC to believe lies that the long list of fact and that kind of attitude is evil on it's own.

http://www.iocc.org/ if anyone changed their minds and can afford it.

d-sipl=====
How so? That I give another point that what the majority of christians say in the world and thoughout history? Maybe we should chaneg the religion to cater to peoples preferences which then it will be called athiesm.

Netcog===
"Doing one sin or doing thousands....doesn't matter in regards to our eternal soul" " as in a christian is a person saved by belief in Christ Jesus." If you don't count deteriorating the soul and not regreting deeply then you are right but it does matter so your point is questionable. I already explain it to Jest since explaining things to you going in one ear and out the other since you can not absorb the information.
You are not supposed to study the Hewbrew passages of it since its been altered and Christ used the septuigent (Greek version). Ancient Greek version of the OT since Greek is the inspired world of God which official NT is in Greek, also the fact than the Hebrew OT has been edited since Christ knew he can not reply on them anymore which is why he said many negative things about them but many here blindly ignore Christ. I explained about sin in the other post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint


Quit wasting my time with the same questions and go look at new from all over the world and compare than being blindly biased.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Hi Warsong. There is much that I could comment on, but I will limit myself to this one:

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
You are not supposed to study the Hewbrew passages of it since its been altered and Christ used the septuigent (Greek version). Ancient Greek version of the OT since Greek is the inspired world of God which official NT is in Greek, also the fact than the Hebrew OT has been edited since Christ knew he can not reply on them anymore which is why he said many negative things about them but many here blindly ignore Christ. I explained about sin in the other post. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint

Jesus actually quoted from both the Hebrew and the Greek Old Testament. The common version that his audience was familiar with was of course the LXX, and he often quoted from that. But certainly one of his most powerful quotations from the Old Testament was in Hebrew/Aramaic:

quote:
Psalm 22:1 (Westminster Leningrad Codex)
◊ú÷∑÷≠◊ě÷į◊†÷∑◊¶÷ľ÷Ķ◊ó÷∑ ◊Ę÷∑◊ú÷ĺ◊ź÷∑◊ô÷ľ÷∂÷•◊ú÷∂◊™ ◊Ē÷∑◊©◊Ā÷ľ÷∑÷ó◊ó÷∑◊® ◊ě÷ī◊Ė÷į◊ě÷Ļ÷•◊ē◊® ◊ú÷į◊ď÷ł◊ē÷ī÷Ĺ◊ď◊É[
(NIV) "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?"

quote:
Matthew 27:46 (paralleled in Mark 15:34)
About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"‚ÄĒwhich means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

On a separate but related topic Warsong -- I just want you to know that I really care about the people here on these boards. I spend a good deal of time and effort into researching and writing posts because I feel that this is a good community where we can all pursue Truth together. I'm worried that your comments may be harmful to some of the younger audience here. Better a millstone be tied around your neck and you be thrown into the sea than you lead one of the little ones astray.

Just please be careful. Let's pursue God together, and seek Truth. Let's lay personal agendas of opinion aside, be willing and humble to admit when we're wrong, compare notes on what we've studied, and really seek His face. High energy discussion can be good, and I'm glad that you're passionate -- too often in today's society people just don't care about much of anything. But if we're all going to be travelling this road to Heaven together, we should probably try and get along better.

If you hold a sword at a slight angle to a grinding stone, it makes a few sparks and ultimately the sword is sharper. However, if you make the angle too sharp, you get a whole lot of sparks, and ultimately the sword is duller. A little conflict among brothers can be good, a lot of conflict is likely bad. Let's try and sharpen each other instead of grinding each other to bits.

In Christ,
clint

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
quote:
Netcog===
"Doing one sin or doing thousands....doesn't matter in regards to our eternal soul" " as in a christian is a person saved by belief in Christ Jesus." If you don't count deteriorating the soul and not regreting deeply then you are right but it does matter so your point is questionable. I already explain it to Jest since explaining things to you going in one ear and out the other since you can not absorb the information.
You are not supposed to study the Hewbrew passages of it since its been altered and Christ used the septuigent (Greek version). Ancient Greek version of the OT since Greek is the inspired world of God which official NT is in Greek, also the fact than the Hebrew OT has been edited since Christ knew he can not reply on them anymore which is why he said many negative things about them but many here blindly ignore Christ. I explained about sin in the other post.

While HanClinto is correct that is not what I was referring to. Primarily Greek (new testament), Hebrew -or derivatives- (old testament).

I was talking specifically about the eternal status - life or death - of our soul. I don't believe sin can be done with impunity; action has consequence. But I don't believe (not just a simple opinion I've reached) sin (the action of doing a sin) has any effect on whether one is saved or not. The only "sin" that has an effect on our status (as referenced above) in eternity is the one of not believing in Christ Jesus as the Son of God who died for us. All other sins or advancing in the knowledge (relationship) of Jesus Christ affects the cursings (punishments not having to do with whether we have eternal life or death) or blessings we have on Earth and in Heaven.

As an aside...do you think that because I reject where I feel you are wrong that I don't read or perhaps even don't see where at least some of what you are saying is coming from? (You can replace "I" with anyone else here you've ranted against for being ignorant or otherwise sinning because we do not agree with what you say).

ClownHunter

Member

Posts: 10
From:
Registered: 06-14-2006
I don't have time to read through all of this but here's my take on the situation:

quote:
Do not give money to Israel and donít go to war when the US says to. The majority of the world is against this war but only Israel, US, and England are for it while the world condemns them for their bad action.

Yes, killing innocent Israeli children is ok! When Israel fights back...BAD! Israel should suffer! Wow....great thinking, man.

quote:
That the Jews did not spread the word and wanted to be the only ones to be saved while other dammed and so Christ took the privilege away from them to give to another to spread the God words.

wtf are you reading? I'm no bible lover but I know that God went to everyone first to try to give up the commandments. They all said no. Jews said yes. Jews are still happy with the commandments.

quote:
since Jews are not Gods chosen people as I stated many times and explained.

As I recall that's the Jews whole claim to fame.



Posts:
From:
Registered:
Former American president "Jimmy Carter" Condemns Israeli Action in Lebanon

"I don't think that Israel has any legal or moral justification for their massive bombing of the entire nation of Lebanon," Carter said.

"What happened is that Israel is holding almost 10,000 prisoners, so when the militants in Lebanon or in Gaza take one or two soldiers, Israel looks upon this as a justification for an attack on the civilian population of Lebanon and Gaza. I do not think that's justified."

"Our country always had a policy of not going to war unless our own security was directly threatened and now we have a new policy of going to war on a preemptive basis."
Xaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxaxa funny but true

But everyone else here justify that Israel hold prisoners without trial and torturing them. I guess many are clueless or are evil, but everyone has an opinion despite it being very wrong. As stated ignorance is one of the roots to being evil. It's not what people knows itís what they donít know that makes the world worse. Peopleís decisions to support this war are un-American, unconstitutional, unchristian, and again "real" long term peace for everyone.

Ok replies ================
Cheesestorm===
Just like I thought, I would expect as much from an atheist. Whatís wrong you canít find word to defend your view point?

HAN===
I know what you mean and agree but Christ mainly trusted the LXX. Remember that the Old Testament was translated into Greek individually by 72 expert Jewish translators and each of the 72 translations was identical which it is impossible to do that with the English language as we see how so many books are out and different interpretations which help bring about many sects. It is a much richer language they say with more words and explanations that no other language has. Which is why some classical literature historians recommend people read the old stories like the Iliad, odyssey, in the original language since the translated version do not express the story well and butcher it they say.

As I stated in the other post about the passion that the language to the movie was wrong. The Jews spoke to each other Aramaic, the Romans spoke to each other Latin, but they communicated with one another in Greek since that was the main language at the time just like how English is the main language.

As for what you say about comments being harmful, well maybe since this topic is not for kids but for adults. What do kids know about politics? I know I didnít care when I was a kid and didnít care for the news just like every other kid, or maybe the news was boring years ago. You know I didnít insult anyone directly first and I present another view which many object to another view which that kind of thinking is wrong. We have to remember the point of freedom of speech is to find the truth especially in politics, but now in todayís society they abuse it to use it against people to attack character than the points which does against the founding fathers of the US and the constitution which happen to be influenced by Christianity.

Netcog=====
Sometimes it does seem that you are not paying attention in the way you reply since you ask something that has already been answered. Maybe I say too much and people can not absorb all the information since it can be overwhelming, and some have shown now to absorb the information and things need to be taken short and slow.

Clow===
I agree with your comments but you ignore the facts that Israel killed more and the others retaliate and only the Israeli side is shown mostly. When non Americans and non Israeli then its ok for them not to defend themselves?

There are more than 10 commandments, but they do not follow the first 10 and go against it.

That was not Jews claim to fame as you stated but maybe it is to the liberal protestant sects. I explained everything in details which is why this is such a long post.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
(In response to my picture)
quote:
Posted by Warsong:
Just like I thought, I would expect as much from an atheist. Whatís wrong you canít find word to defend your view point?


Ah, judging me by my religion. I would expect as much from a racist.
Your conspiracy theories didn't convince anyone!

Max is right, time to stop casting pearls, as you Christians say.
D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
(In response to my picture)
[QUOTE]Posted by Warsong:
Just like I thought, I would expect as much from an atheist. Whatís wrong you canít find word to defend your view point?


Ah, judging me by my religion. I would expect as much from a racist.
Your conspiracy theories didn't convince anyone!

Max is right, time to stop casting pearls, as you Christians say.
[/QUOTE]
LOL

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I was the one that comments on casting pearls since not even facts from official news sites, leaders, other countries, philosophers, or the BIBLE is good enough for some to understand which they all object.

Hypocrisy and ignorance... what a dangerous combination.
If anyone can dispute any of the fact then we are on good tracks if not then everyone is just complaining that they can't win. People should be humble and admit they donít know enough about the topic than complain and attack others.

Obviously no one likes to loose which is why they go to the last resort to attack the person and making thing up than the argument in a failed attempt to win. Even Former US president doesnít think this is moral (not Christian) of people to support it so should we attack Carter than his points? People judge in their comfortable chairs and support that others are suffering is not Christian no matter how you slice it. How can something be a conspiracy when the majority of Christians and non Christians agree?

The facts, main news, respectable people, and the experts said it themselves. Well at least the majority understand no need to deal with the few, just like getting the entire pie so who cares about the crumbs.
hahahahahaha

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"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 18, 2006).]

NetCog

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Re: majority...how about a case study or two?

I direct the esteemed participants in this thread to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah.

I direct the esteemed participants in this thread to the history of the Roman Empire or of the time during the birth of the Church (Christianity in general...not the "Catholic" or "Orthodox" churches)

I direct the esteemed participants in this thread to the history of the French Revolution.

I direct the esteemed participants in this thread to the history during the build up and expansion of the Third Reich.

Just a tip but the "majority" in any general population group is rarely (or 'not often') correct.

oh btw - generally...in war...the victor does most of the killing. *shrug* That's usually how a battle is won. Or at least the victor does most of the destruction - be it life, equipment, or moral.
~~Then, at least recent history, the victor gets to help rebuild the loser. At least that's what the US has done, I'm not sure about any other nation including France or England where there wasn't colonial growth involved.

p.s. just for some extra reading about the region
THE 25-YEAR US-IRAN WAR
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/6718

A little history - of which I haven't read it all yet
http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/timeline.htm#2001

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 19, 2006).]

Simon_Templar

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Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
Frankly, people who condemn Israel for its recent actions have lost touch with reality and most cases are completely hypocritical to boot.

I think that agreeing to the current resolution was a terrible terrible mistake which undoubtedly was prompted by plenty of pressure from the US. Both Israel and the US will pay heavily for it I suspect.

We are in the midst of a global conflict, a war between two cultures. It is coming to a drastic conclusion and every time we refuse to defeat the enemy now, we ensure more destruction in the end.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

D-SIPL

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From: Maesteg, Wales
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Ok this thread has gone on long enough!

The bible says this...

Those that bless Israel will be blessed, those that curse Israel will be curses.

Now thats from God, accept it. End of...

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

buddboy

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Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
lol, i said that at the very beginning. good luck with stopping it that way. you *should* just close it.

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WARNING:

RADIOACTIVE IE AHEAD!
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int name()
{
char name['B','u','d','d','B','o''y']

Max

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Posts: 523
From: IA
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I agree with Budboy, D-Sipl, just close it. This has no more good left in it.

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

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D-SIPL

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Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
I think it's pretty much closed now. If anyone has anything NEW to add then feel free, i'm all in favour of freedom of speech and a good debate. But in the light of scripture you can't disagree with that. It's God breathed, end of.

The bible says to pray for Israel. I suggest we all do so

------------------
"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler
"I believe in freedom... not freedom like America, freedom like a shopping cart"

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
One last thing. Romans, Chapters 8 and 9. I know most of you will probly pass it by and not read it, but I think it explains a lot about being a Christian and about Jews and stuff.

Romans 8:9-10 NIV - You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 - But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

Romans 9:30-32 NIV - What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith ;31 - but Israel, who pursues a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 - Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "sumbling stone."

Check these two chapters out if you have questions (It's ok, they are short.)

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

demon_slayer2839

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Posts: 22
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Ezekiel 38 and 39 is all this war is leading too. Soon enough Russia and all it's little mid-east buddies are going to go down to Isreal and try to whoop up on a little and God's going to raise up the U.S., Cananda, England, and Australia the jump to their defense. Why do you think we're in Iraq, it's just a short jump to Isreal and we're there. But anyways, God's going to miraculously save Isreal in the face of utter destruction. And then comes the good part the Rapture.
jestermax

Member

Posts: 1064
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actually, if memory serves me, the dead will rise before the rapture, no? i haven't read Revelation in a while so i could be wrong...



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As the bible says when you use violence you encourage more violence.
""The secretary general is deeply concerned about a violation by the Israeli side of the cessation of hostilities," a spokesman for Mr Annan said on the UN website. " BBC
Israel didnít stop its attack on the cease fire but if anyone else did it then watch out which there is a double standard. Israel has a free pass to do anything even use nukes if they wanted too since so many support it becasue they dont know the fuill story. Just like how so many favored all the christian churches destoryed in kosovo by the US to replace it with muslims. UGGGGGGGGGG Republicant know that was a BS war but o well.

Reganís advisor Pat Buchanan explained it well. http://www.townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/archive.shtml
I think people should listen to the people that do not benefit from the war and live close to the region that are neutral than people that do benefit.

NetCog===
Nice points but so what.
Sodom and Gomorrah Jewish practices so nothing new. Did you hear about a a gay porn start to have a live sex show in front of the Israeli troops which they are eagerly awaiting? This is what they think is proper entertainment uggggg. The first country to have a big budget hard core gay movie a Jewish news paper says which this is mind boggling that immorality is praised and a big thing their.
Your points give example of the people who have power that are wrong. cause it not the majority. Whoever is the winner of a war rewrites history and the ones that can do that are the ones that have power which the majority never does. But you miss out that the Church was against that just like how it is against it now.
How about the Russian revolution that helped bring communism and how the Orthodox priests were murdered and it was against Christianity? The few that have connections and power manipulated the people which everyone knows that.
The majority of well respect high Orthodox official decided what should and should not be in the bible not the rich elite or other fake sects like the Gnostic, and the majority of the Christian churches are against it but the rich elite are for the war. Big money to be made off the blood of others which benefits many when they are most likely not real Christians.

Simon====
You donít know who the enemy is and you are premature to judge. Side with Christianity and you wont go wrong.

D-siple=====
Ití not from Christ in what you say. No Jewish state in Israel 100 years ago and when Jews came then the **** hit the fan and all hell broke loose, and that does not glorifying Christ.
God will ďgiveĒ the land to them when they are Christians, but they ďtook it by forceĒ when they were still Jewish, and to do so it is against GOD. And that is an insult to God and anyone that supports that is cursed. Do you bless the example of the news story of the gay sex scene taking place which the Israeli soldiers want? Is that blessed?

Christ comes when things are really bad and supporting this does not show that we are taking the right actions.
Christ preaches nonviolence. ďWhen you use violence, the strongest, not necessarily the most moral, often win. On the other hand, those who use reason nonviolently and with an open mind (by definition part of being rational), change minds, not force them to submit.Ē
I think people should be Christian and act on it and not support violence since they should know that violence bring more violence. If anyone disagrees with Christ on this post then reply back.

If we weight it all I still have more evidence which many can not dispute. Why are the respectable people, Christ, and the majority of the church that deals with them every day ignored? Money and land thatís why.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

Ereon

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From: Ohio, United States
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......According to Wikipedia the Ottomans sold the first few sets of land to the Jews, then the British, who still had control of the land during that time gave the Jews more land to expand upon and allowed and encouraged more Jews in immigrate into the area, however, the Arabs of the area didn't like it and started quarelling with the Jews. The British and the UN tried to solve it all by splitting the land in half, however the Arabs got mad and Israel didn't get any where near what they were promised, and when the British gave up jurisdiction of the land the Arabs tried to take it back and it's be problems ever since. Just a thought.

Christianity is not non-violent, nowhere in the Bible will you see it said that Christianity is non-violent, but you WILL see that our violence is against the things of the spiritual realm, powers and principalities, and against our own flesh (which we are to beat and crucify daily). The conflicts and wars we see around us are part of the time, they are nessecessary, because "all creation is groaning, as in the pains of childbirth". We have to look deeper than the surface Warsong, see beyond the physical, beyond our intellect and our logic, and see what's really going on. Go through your Bible, study up on the end times and on Israel's place in the plan of God, pray about it and hunt for the truth that lies deeper than logic or man's intellect. There's more here than meets the eye, and if all you do is look with your eye, you will see precious little, and you will miss God's purpose and his plan.

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.
C. S. Lewis

www.christiangaming.com

NetCog

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Posts: 149
From:
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quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
Christ preaches nonviolence. ďWhen you use violence, the strongest, not necessarily the most moral, often win. On the other hand, those who use reason nonviolently and with an open mind (by definition part of being rational), change minds, not force them to submit.Ē

1. I'll get to the rest of your post later.

2. I'd like chapter and verse on this if you don't mind. Assuming you are actually quoting Christ, in which case it would not be the "turn the other cheek" passage.

3. If it's not chapter and verse, and/or that statement is based off "turn the other cheek", please provide who and from where you are quoting.

Thanks.

[This message has been edited by netcog (edited August 22, 2006).]

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
Nice points but so what.
*snip*
Your points give example of the people who have power that are wrong. cause it not the majority. Whoever is the winner of a war rewrites history and the ones that can do that are the ones that have power which the majority never does. But you miss out that the Church was against that just like how it is against it now.
How about the Russian revolution that helped bring communism and how the Orthodox priests were murdered and it was against Christianity? The few that have connections and power manipulated the people which everyone knows that.

The point being ... majority isn't always right...Sodom and Gomorrah were pretty much 100% evil...I'd say that classifies as more than simply 'those in power'.
The French Revolution - another great example of majority or mob action. The Third Reich might be debateable on majority or not, but Hitler (if memory serves) was voted into a position of power. Not to mention the majority of world leaders and populations who were engaging in a system of appeasement. The majority of Americans did not want to enter the war, considering Germany to be unthreatening or Europe's problem...at least prior to Pearl Harbor. After Pearl Harbor I don't know what the numbers were.

quote:

Sodom and Gomorrah Jewish practices so nothing new. Did you hear about a a gay porn start to have a live sex show in front of the Israeli troops which they are eagerly awaiting? This is what they think is proper entertainment uggggg. The first country to have a big budget hard core gay movie a Jewish news paper says which this is mind boggling that immorality is praised and a big thing their.

1. How do you connect Sodom and Gomorrah to Jews?

2.
Firstly, I'd like to see your proof of "first country".
Secondly, there is no difference between homosexual and heterosexual porn....I'd have to say on that account the United States, the or a handful of European countries, and the Orient has Israel beat...
Thirdly, "a Jewish newspaper" (again because you aren't providing source) could mean anything...a newspaper owned or supported by the ACLU or Rainbow Coalition might report something as just grand but that doesn't make it majority opinion...shoot even editorialized in the NYT or Washington Post wouldn't make it majority opinion...one case for that is the "portrait" of Mary on display a few years ago.

[This message has been edited by netcog (edited August 23, 2006).]




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Netcog======
About Christ objecting to violence and why one site says a few quotes. I am surprise you donít know the quotes. http://www.incommunion.org/articles/essays/christ-and-violence
One quote is ďViolence begets unending violence, ďfor all they that take the sword shall perish with the swordĒ (Matthew 26:52) And whoever doesnít follow Christ will help make WW3. A lot of good bible quotes on the link.

Yes the French revolution was bad and they replace one tyrant with another. But as you see if wouldnít have happened if the elite didnít treat its people inhumane. Obviously the majority is not always right but when you are against a greedy elite with self interests then their will be problems.

As for Hitler he got power and popularity by the rich elite Americans and he was ďTimes man of the yearĒ and so was Stalin 2 times I think, also that many of the rich Jews in the US gave Hitler a lot of money to get the power. And you know to run for office and win as everyone knows depends on how much money you have and who you know to win. If the US elite didnít interfere and give money to other countries for their self interests then it would most likely not have happened and 50 million (as one site says) people would not have died.

Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of homosexuality which seem to be a normal practice in Israel now it seems as the Jewish news site states, and they help push for it in the US which they admit like the ACLU which is a Jewish dominated organization which I gave you the link before that explained that.
Here is the link about the live gay sex show http://www.somethingjewish.co.uk/articles/1979_entertaining_gay_isr.htm Obviously not all support it but it is crazy how many do, also Tel Aviv makes Las Vega slightly look more moral.

Anyway I donít get your other points or what you want exactly. Ok to put it differently the majority of Christian priests are against the war since it is not Christian. Who would you trust a educated person of religion or a politician?


Ereon====
You also have to look before then, but when they tripped their land in their 6 day ďwarĒ. There is more to the story than what you said.
As for the rest read the link gave to Netcog about violence.

Everythingh clearn now?

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

jestermax

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i thought we wanted to close this thread...



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Jex that would be going against the constitution and Christianity, also it's not like things got out of hand and fights broke out lol. Did you read the link about what Christ thinks about violence? Maybe I should post about that separately.

Anyway it's easy to attack Muslim countries since no one cares about them; it's like a bad person doing bad things against another bad person.

Anyway here is some more news.
"Cleanup of a massive oil spill caused by Israeli air strikes on a fuel depot could take up to one year, the environmental group Greenpeace Mediterranean has said.
It polluted about 150 kilometers (93 miles) of the Lebanese coast and spread north into Syrian waters, officials said.

Officials warn that if all the oil from the damaged plant were to seep into the sea, the environmental fallout could rival the 1989 Exxon Valdez spill that devastated Alaska's Prince William Sound."

"Amnesty International on Wednesday accused Israel of war crimes, saying it broke international law by deliberately destroying Lebanon's civilian infrastructure during its recent war with Hezbollah guerrillas."

"anyone really surprised that Israel violated the cease-fire? Here, after all, is a nation that has defied the United Nations on 321 different occasions, refused to sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, and proudly proclaims its own lawlessness. Only a fool, or a masochist, would count on Tel Aviv to keep its agreements.

Apart from that, however, this latest raid underscores the real objective of what the American media insists on calling the Israeli "incursion" (never "invasion") into Lebanon: it's all about Syria and Iran."

"But, as it turns out, democracy has nothing to do with it: it's all about destabilizing the region to pursue an Israeli agenda. That agenda is the breakup and atomization of the Arab-Muslim world, so that it is little more than a collection of splinters. Lebanon is only the first phase of this campaign, and the Israelis are pushing ahead no matter what Washington thinks."

"it is only a matter of time before there is a public split."

"the U.S./French effort to engineer a cease-fire, but, as we have seen, the Israelis can violate this and face no immediately discernible consequences.

Condoleezza Rice went to Israel to try to cobble together a cease-fire and was undercut by the IDF's murderous assault on Qana. Condi was reportedly furious"

"the president of the United States forges ahead with this mad plan to "transform" the Middle East. It's an outrage, an act of treachery, and, yes, treason on a scale never before seen. "

"The Israeli raid has showed how powerless the UN and the U.S. are against not Hezbollah, but Tel Aviv. As Maj. Gen. William L. Nash, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, put it to the New York Times:
We know what they're not going to do, but what will they do. They're not going to disarm Hezbollah. But are they going to stop Israel from re-attacking Hezbollah? If the Israeli government decides there is an imminent threat, and attacks with F-16s, what is the mandate for the UN? What does the UN do?""

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Warsong, I've found you of all people don't know what God wants, heh.

I don't care about any quotes you throw at us except for the Bible. Your opinion is not fact. Something you quite often overlook. (I'm gonna get a witty slam, OH NO!!!)

------------------
To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
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quote:
"Amnesty International on Wednesday accused Israel of war crimes, saying it broke international law by deliberately destroying Lebanon's civilian infrastructure during its recent war with Hezbollah guerrillas."

LOL...
So Britain, the US, and Allied forces committed war crimes in the attack upon Hitler time and time again.

When you begin to define the act of making war as a war crime then any battle participant is guilty.

Not that you'll agree with anything here (though you might), for my reference and others on the topic of Christ and pacifism...even a few other points such as who I would trust.

http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/library/militia/1-1.html

And http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/war/christianity.shtml which offers an interesting counter-point (balance or perspective) to the first link with some historical reference.


(Which btw on politician vs educated religious leader - I would trust one or the other, neither or both, depending on the subject matter. And then it would not be carte blanc whoever of whichever group.)




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Max
Yes we understand u donít care about the facts in what the news says, or the bible, or the majority of Christians, or experts, or political leaders, etc. If you care only from what the bible says then reply only to that part when you reply than complain.

Net
What you say it seems you didnít graduate from college yet, or didnít take any politics or history classed to understand why certain rules are in place during war. Which brings up the question again, was the war in Kosovo justified?
Do you know how many went to jail and got executed for those same actions? Isnít it hypocritical that one side does it at a small scale and gets punished while another that did far more and worse war crimes goes off free? Like everything itís not what you know itís who you know, itís not how right you are its how much money and power that determines who will win.
You attack the world, the majority of Christians, news companies, history, UN, Amnesty international, and other respectable leaders, and the rest just because you want to feel you are right? Talk about ignoring the facts and for a bias view.
Who could Christ side with? It is obvious in the quotes from the bible. Go against Christ and you will only guarantee your loss.
Did you check out pat Buchananís comments about it?

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
Warsong, you're assuming again...

Here's the (or a) kicker....I don't believe the news companies, UN, AI, or most of the rest of the international community, or nations for that matter, are unbiased. And I've seen enough to have that as a valid suspicion.

And to take what you said about history being written by those who win it would seem (by your words) I shouldn't trust that perspective either...so by your words since we can't trust history, we're kinda SOL if we don't believe the UN and those associated with it.

quote:
Like everything itís not what you know itís who you know, itís not how right you are its how much money and power that determines who will win.

Wrong. Jesus Christ controls history.

quote:
Who could Christ side with? It is obvious in the quotes from the bible. Go against Christ and you will only guarantee your loss.

Well I would have to say you're right. Which is why I'm certainly not going to blithely take up arms or a soapbox position against Israel in favor of those who are attacking her....have been attacking her since nigh time immorial.

In the face of two SOVEREIGN NATIONS, both of whom might or might not be operating in a mistaken fashion, best case is to let them have at it. Worst case, support the one best suited to our interests - which would include any positioning in the Bible. Israel might not be "actively special" but Lebanon isn't, hasn't, and probably won't ever be in such a position with God (though it's not impossible they'd become a 'client nation').

[This message has been edited by netcog (edited August 26, 2006).]




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Netcog
So you say that everyone else is biased and the US is unbiased? If so thatís a biased statement lol The people that benefit from the war say their biased opinions which is 3 countries US, England, and Israel. While the rest of the countries which greatly outnumber those 3 say other wise and letís say some are biased but not all are biased, and so for that many countries against then you see that there is a bias on your side. The ďlogicalĒ odds are against you in this for this war.

Ok here is how to understand what is unbiased, if 3 people beat up 1 person, should you.
A. Listen to the side only of the 3 people.
B. Listen to the side of the 1 person getting beaten.
C. Listen to the over 50 neutral spectator.
HMMMMM I know math in north America is not doing so well in school but this is not a hard answer.

Your comments defiantly show you did not get out of school yet or see the real world.

No one is suited for out interests and the best thing suited for out interest is to do what CHRIST said. For many people to be suffering in Lebanon maybe u should go live their and feel how to be a regular civilian. You could not defend any of the violent actions and the unchristian actions that are taking place, since when you defend unchristian actions then what kind of Christian are you? Giving special treatment to a ďraceĒ which some people call is racist despite them not being a real race as they even state. Itís all politics!

More news from BBC which is suppressing they have the other side sometimes but freedom of speech is practiced more in Europe despite that Americans donít want to believe it and want to feel that they are #1 which that kind of thinking is not humble at all.

More news on the side of the site
ďhead of the local journalists' union, described the attack (by Israel) as a "cold-blooded crime".Ē
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5296314.stm

Here is another question, if someone took 10,000 of your people and didnít give them a trial and tortured them and they do not care to give them back since they have over 10 times the weapons and the backing of 2 powerful countries what would you do?

Two crazy cultures/religions fighting each other, but its interesting to see what side people are on and how they make illogical decisions.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
Where did I say the US was "unbiased"?

*edit*
As for your example...having been on the recieving, the observer, and (emotionally) the attacking end of similar situations, one cannot carte blanc trust any of the three parties...the "victim", the "attackers", or the "observers". Each one could be wrong and/or lying, or all three could be. The Majority is not Right by definition.

As applied to the real world...No one is "neutral" in this situation. One _might_ have been able to claim neutrality during WWI/II...maybe...but not with the Middle East.


Interesting point here:

quote:
The Majority is not Right by definition.

~~~~ Otherwise Christ didn't actually exist, or certainly wasn't God becoming flesh, dying, then rising again into Heaven, whose work paid the penalty of sin.

Just something to think about.

[This message has been edited by netcog (edited August 29, 2006).]




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The majority is not always right just like how the majority that replyed in here are not, but the majority of what christ says is againt it. Obviously quality is better than quantity but you also have quantity and quality that is againt the war.
democracy or dictatorship?

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 30, 2006).]

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
...but the majority of what christ says is againt [the war].

I encourage people to read what the Bible truly does say about looking out for the poor, the widow, for giving justice to those oppressed, etc. People take one passage out of the Sermon on the Mount and build a whole doctrine of pacifism out of it.

Just so you all know, Warsong is overstating a pacifist's position by saying that the "majority" of scripture speaks this way. It's a tough issue, but it's not as clear-cut in scripture as Warsong makes it sound.

--clint

JeTSpice
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From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
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May this not be redunant--Please forgive me as I haven't read every part of the thread.

The Jew should not gloat. The gentile should not be envious. The blessings of the Jew are not earned, they are spoken forth by God as irrefutable law. If a gentile points to a Jew and says "No fair," he is going against God's sovergnty, right though he may be. But he is not right at all because he has gone against God. If a Jew demands respect for no reason other than he is a Jew, he too goes against God, by claiming that God recognizes him as superior. Even if he is more blessed than the gentile, he goes against God. We're called to play no favorites as Christians, but our obedience to what God has said commands blessings.

None of this can be understood without the Spirit of Christ living in a person.

In the future, all the world will rise up against Israel. But whoever protects Israel will be blessed. Even in this, if Israel has done wrong, God will rebuke her, because he said he will do so, and he is not a man that he should lie, and vengance is the Lord's. But a protector of Israel will not lose a blessing because Israel did not deserve to be protected. A protector is not protecting Israel, after all, but is obedient to the Word of God. If a protector of Israel is wicked, the protector will receive the blessings deserved, and also the curses of wickedness. God is just, and will not be mocked.

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.




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IS THIS PROGRESS This IS a Christian act?? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5301624.stm
"The Lebanese government has previously put the cost of damage at $3.6bn.

It has also asked for funds to help clear landmines and unexploded cluster bombs, which are preventing farmers returning to their fields."

"humanitarian chief condemned the "completely immoral" way Israel dropped thousands of cluster bombs on Lebanon even as a resolution appeared imminent."

"At the donors' conference in Sweden, Mr Siniora told delegates the month-long conflict had plunged Lebanon's economy into a "deep recession".

"Lebanon, which only seven weeks ago was full of hope and promise, has been torn to shreds by destruction, displacement, dispossession, desolation and death," he said."

"Before the conflict erupted, Lebanon had one of the more promising economies in the Middle East, with the government forecasting strong growth of 6% and paying off its debts.

Now it says output will plummet and it will run a deficit for the first time in several years. Unemployment is up sharply, and industry, agriculture, tourism and fishing were badly damaged"
Every time a country tries to do well others attack it so badly in an unchristian way that it can not rise up. Its not just Lebanon that this is being done to is the other problem.

Only a coward would kill innocent unarmed civilians, destroy in one month what took decades to build, and take on someone over 10times weaker, while instigating problems and making the other suffer before during and after. All you Christians should take the place of the Christians that live their and see the new tune you will play.

It is not if this is Christian or not, but what has been done is just EVIL.

Han--
This is not about pacifism but about unjustified devastation, so don't twist meanings around. What do you want all the muslim countries to do nothing while Israel attacks them and not mentioned once in the US news? This is not about the lies that float around but the complete facts that are not shown which most counties say the complete story that it omitted to most people in the states and when presented with the fact people blindly ignore.
Military should be mainly sued to defend and not conquer and terrorizes and destabilize other countries. I think you are over exaggerating what defense is, which doesnít mean to cause problems to make an excuse to start a war which I explained how war strategy works. All the Christian Original churches are against it and they have dealt with them the longest and have been attacked by both of them equally and have no vested interest in any side.
There is a reason why Orthodox churches get along better with Muslims than other sects since they didnít do unchristian things to them. As one famous protestant political columnist Ann Counter said that America should kill the Muslim leaders and force them all to convert to Christianity which that is an unchristian thing to do to forcefully convert. Then Christianity becomes just as bad as the Muslim and Jewish religion that have killed to put fear in others to not convert and convert to what they want. But I guess without that unchristian action there would not be Catholics and protestant churches since they have used that to help spread their sects, even though that contradicts.

Jet--
I explained that when I replied to d-siple in his last comment if you scroll up or press search.

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 31, 2006).]

JeTSpice
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Posts: 433
From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA
Registered: 06-10-2006
Warsong-- thanks for a civilized reply in a heavy topic. It appears to me that most of what you say is that "Israel doesn't deserve." Is this correct? If so, please understand that I have no ability to address that issue--no knowledge from which to judge. But if you say "Therefore don't bless Israel," you are going against the Word of God. Whether the Jews deserve a blessing or whether they do not, God's words are eternal, and he says "Whoever blesses Israel will be blessed."

If you have difficulty with this, then pray for Israel and also pray for other countries. Your obedience to God will command a huge blessing, especially if you are so against it.

If I might say so, you have a great gift for debate, but not much scripture backing up what you have to say. You use a lot of news and philosophy--you're very learned--but you could be a lot more effective and convincing if you speak to Christians in terms of scripture. Just a thought. Again, thanks for the civil response.

edit: I noticed that you did start out with scripture, so I rescind.

I said "if you have the spirit of Christ, then you will understand." But you did not understand. I hope you do understand, because it requires the Spirit of the Lord inside you. If you don't understand, then you need to invite the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit to come and dwell inside you.

You say "people will cry, 'Lord, Lord.'" This always frightens me into humility. Does it frighten you, too, or do you have a sense of "being right"? If you feel "right" all the time, then you do not have the ability to know if you are wrong or not. You can only have this ability by inviting in the Holy Spirit. If you have already acknowledged Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and invited Him in, and declared Him with your mouth, then please forgive my ignorance. But you sound like no Christian I've ever heard.

You have also said that Christians go to heaven by their actions and that Christianity = logic. Right actions and right thinking are certainly by-products of a mature Christian. But do you believe that actions and thinking are the foundation of Christianity, or do you believe that Christians are defined by the Spirit of Jesus living inside them?

I mean no offense by any of this. But you might not have the promise of salvation. The promise is the deposit of the Holy Spirit. You might be the one who is crying "Lord, Lord," but you haven't shared yourself with the Lord.

If you want to be sure, it's really easy. You say a prayer to God, acknowledging that you are a sinner (unworthy, less-than-perfect, work-in-progress, etc.), and also acknowledging that the only way to God is through Jesus, God's only begotten son who died on the cross for all of us. Also, the Bible says that if you acknowledge Christ before men, then Jesus will acknowledge you before the Father. So, tell people that you believe Jesus died for your sins and he rose again and that you are going to Heaven. It's important to say it. When you say this, and also believe it, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in you. Then you are a Christian. It's the most exhilerating thing you'll ever do, and it will change your life forever!

[This message has been edited by JeTSpice (edited August 31, 2006).]




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Again thatís the OT, Christ didnít say that, taken away from Jews, Israel was under another control, and caused problems ever since they came to the region and instigating violence.

It doesnít matter who does it since doing bad is bad no matter who you are and no one has special treatment since Christ said everyone is equal. Jews in Israel are no saits and have done just as much or more attrocities than anyone. Some examples are "Israel, the report says, is a destination point mainly for women trafficked", the biggest kiddi porn sites were closed since it came from Israel, biggest spy rings the first marriage with an animal happened their, gay porn performed live infront of soldiers for entertainment which i dont get how a government facility allows that, many human rights violations, they have a big list of war crimes, they use porn as a weapon to distract who they are againt,its a save haven for criminals and the world is trying to bust then and its hard since the US backs them up which many ignore international news and then they complain thay are chosen, chosen for what exactly they dont say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1436329.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1207551.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4594255.stm
As you see people should not have special treatment since everyone is equal as christ said but not everyone goes to heaven and the ones that have a better change go only though Christ. People should judge on actions.

There is a lot to say which I have said with a long post and a lot of detailed replies and backed it up with news, history, law, scriptures, and more but people want to take a site since that is what they are taught to believe.

Some of the comments you should also take sine it can apply to you more. If I am a Christian you never heard of well I am blunt and donít fool around. Others say it better than me at times and they do since when I reply some donít get it and someone else explains it better. I know what you mean and agree on the points you made but people assume wrongly since they feel that I present that I know it all, but I only show that facts which is why I quote and ask questions which many do not dispute so easily.

I deal with many people that say they are Christians and they love to do sin I just bluntly say what they do is wrong logically and if that doesnít work them I point it out in the bible and many get mad since they love what they think and do and donít change while some change. If everyone agreed with the facts then we would not all be in different sects. But I am bearing nice to others compared to orthodox which I am much harsher on lol.

Obviously everyone sins and some try not to and some do it with joy all the time. But as the bible says ďMatthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heavenĒ And even St.Paul said faith alone without action is nothing.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 31, 2006).]

NetCog

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Verse and Chapter for Paul's comment?

Christ came to fulfill the law...not abolish it. Principles in the Old Testament hold true today, tempered (if that's the correct word...perhaps "perspective" or "a revisit of some points" is better) with New Testament Grace, Mercy, and Love. But that doesn't nullify the principles in the Old Testament.
Though if you read the OT you'll find the same messages of Grace, Mercy, and Love, along with Redemption, as you'd find in the NT. On one hand Christ's arrival changed alot...on the other hand his arrival had been foretold since like forever and God doesn't change.

p.s. Normally I wouldn't do this so late (after midnight) but I thought I'd take some time since tomorrow's friday and look at your links and maybe look up a couple of details...

*as I read*

heh....

You need to stop going off and maybe read your sources a little more and maybe present them in correct light rather than pulling out what you want in the effort to prove your point instead of pulling the right perspective or context...

heh, the second article is quoting Hamas and other anti-Israeli operations....like I'm going to take their report without a grain of salt.

lol, and the third says nothing more than Israeli and other international businesses are or potentially engaging in industrial espionage....something the article references the Israeli police are looking into (aka to try to fix)...you make it sound as if (A) Israel (Israeli personnel, companies, etc) is the only one doing it (computer shenanigans), (B) those doing it are under directive from Israeli government.

As for Israeli porn
"One hundred and seventy five other countries broadcast the Playboy channel," - reference to a site I will not link here but you can find it near top topical search results...probably can find it by doing a search on that quote.


No one said Israel was perfect...or at least I don't think anyone did. During this 'age' we should treat Israel more or less as any other nation. However, nothing of the extra-details you have mentioned have singled out Israel as something of note. Their -mistakes- do not exist in a vacuum.

The pertinent-details are still left to Hamas attacking first.

And any "resolution" handed down by the UN has as much weight as a feather on my back. There will be no lasting peace globally - or probably even locally to the Middle East - until Christ comes back...until then the closest a country can get is to WIN a war. We proved it in WWI and WWII by victory...we proved it again in the rest of the skirmishes we've had since then...pretty much failure after failure. The First Gulf War being a good example. You gain military peace by winning, there is no other option. *Especially* when you are at odds ideologically rather than a conflict resulting from an error or misperception. David didn't try to reason with Goliath.

Not only can you find that in your history books but you'll find that in the Old Testament.

---- A cold war, a cancer on our doorstep, or a DMZ isn't peace, it's a credit card.


If you want to support Lebanon against Israel that's your perrogative...but don't claim holy ground or perfection backing you up by such a stance. It's your opinion.

World viewpoint means squat, the Bible might have something to say against the population of Israel's personal choices but it doesn't give you the right to pass judgement upon the nation...and by history's record you really shouldn't want to be the sword of God to deliver such punishment...but the Bible also shows exactly what is and isn't within a nation's rights and responsibility to defend itself....no matter who it is or how deep into sin a population might get, those principles of national sovereignty still apply to that nation.

and at the end of the day.....they are sovereign nations...not the guy living next door, not our coworker, not some individual subject to the laws of a specific nation who has the right to enforce such laws on their citizens. The World Nation doesn't exist yet...even if it did, its existance (short of Christ ruling) is a bastardization and subject to my ability to revolt.

Final thought:

Neither Abraham nor Lot passed judgement upon Sodom and Gommorah.

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited September 01, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited September 01, 2006).]

Brandon

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Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
Again thatís the OT, Christ didnít say that,

So does this mean that you don't think the Old Testament is Inspired? Or that it shouldn't be read as scripture?

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Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!




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The show 20/20 in on now. they talk about how American students do worse than many countries despite so much money it gets. When people do not know well they get easily manipulated.

net
I already gave you more exmaples and links before from news sites, and what was just saw was nothing since it was not intended for you since you arleady have more info.

Brandon
I answered that as well but we are supposed to mainly follow the new. Obviously we should not throw it away but use ot to help but it doesnt weigh more in its value than the NT since the NT overide the OT in any contradictory statments. For example even christ said not to follow the old when it says an eye for an eye.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

steveth45

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Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
For example even christ said not to follow the old when it says an eye for an eye.

"Eye for an Eye" does not come from the Old Testament. It comes from the code of Hammurabi. Hammurabi was a Babylonian king who ruled from 1792-1750BC.

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NetCog

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quote:
Originally posted by steveth45:
"Eye for an Eye" does not come from the Old Testament. It comes from the code of Hammurabi. Hammurabi was a Babylonian king who ruled from 1792-1750BC.

Actually it is (also) found in Exodus chapter 21, specifically verse 24.

And the passage Warsong is referring to with Jesus' comments are Matthew 5:38-39

For anyone who wants a potential place to start in looking into the Eye for an Eye issue

quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_eye_for_an_eye
Most Christian scholars and commentators have agreed that such an interpretation is a misunderstanding of this section of Matthew. The "Expounding of the Law" includes a series of six sayings in similar format, known as the "antitheses". In each of them Jesus quotes the provisions of the Jewish Law without criticism - indeed, the passage is prefaced by a ringing endorsement of the Law as whole. However he then calls on his followers to go further than the Law demands, in order to "Be perfect". It seems clear Jesus was not criticising the law, but calling on his followers not only to refrain from the abuses the Law condemns, but to go to the opposite extreme by exercising forgiveness and love ó even when one has a just claim to vengeance

steveth45

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Posts: 536
From: Eugene, OR, USA
Registered: 08-10-2005
You're right, my bad. I studied the Code of Hammurabi in a history class I took several years ago. I didn't realize it was in both.

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