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To make thing clear in short the war of Lebanon and Israel is a joke. Do not give money to Israel and dont go to war when the US says to. The majority of the world is against this war but only Israel, US, and England are for it while the world condemns them for their bad action. Obviously some will disagree in some ways but they dont give you the full story in the US news since they have more of a vested interest. Always listen to the majority neutral Christian side of the story so the local news is useless and even worse. As one news thing says An example of one sides news is this But the thing is that Israel does the same!!! This is a military tactic to hide where its safe just like a robber hiding behind a hostage. For Lebanon to not hide where its safe is like going into a open field where 1 person with a gun is against 10 tanks which is insane. But they don't say the entire story that Israel started it but twists the story around and doesnt show the other side since both have a vested interest. Which ever Christian fight or gives money to Israel is not a Christian weather they like it or not. and its kind of odd how the orthodox church and the pope are against what Israel is doing and asks for money to help the 2,000 victims in Lebanon which many of them have been Christian that got injured and killed, while the protestant churches like Pat Robertson asks for money to give to Israel which is wrong. As you see both say they are Christian but only one does what is proper. As Israel said As you see choosing that option is not doing the Christian way. So when they said sorry they didnt mean it and when they say Lebanon is to blame for it shows that they take responsibility for nothing and feel that are never top blame for anything. I know some people will be confused but dont take thing at face value. If someone give you poop do not accept it since they give it to you because they are benefiting from you believing it. For example in comparison.: Hezbollah has over 10 times fewer weapons than Israel. This guy from England in this news site says it well (video) As Christ said negative actions being more negative action and whoever supports this war in any way is not Christian in their actions despite the majority of Americans fare Christians and how the majority supports it. ------------------ |
buddboy Member Posts: 2220 From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S. Registered: 10-08-2004 |
what? what?! WHAT?! ok, whoa whoa whoa. God SAID to Abraham, Isaac, AND Jacob, "Those who bless you will be blessed." and the opposite of that. Israel is still God's chosen people, never forget that. the bible predicted this war with Lebanon, don't remember exactly what it said. still trying to find the verse. ------------------
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jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
check out Luke 21:9. just relax and let God do his part |
jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
just commenting on your comparison with canada... canada is an open country that lets nearly anyone in. countries don't just go to war because one country has someone in it that noone likes. if it happens, it is generally the government's fault for refusing to do anything about it or let other helps to fix the problem. |
luke Member Posts: 311 From: I use your computer as my second Linux box Registered: 10-30-2005 |
I agree that there are many lies floating around today's age of 'information' especially during wartime(I do not however agree with much of what you say) and political elections. As I see it, this is just the latest in the long cycle of violence in that area of the world; not much 'we' can do about it. Although, I sure that it didn't seem mostly like an era of the truth being whatever is said the most often in the news; because this 'information' age is merely an age of disinformation! ------------------ |
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Use Logic first since Christianity = Logic. This is why I say people should know the history and the entire bible and not nit pick since people do take things the wrong way. NO that's the Protestant distortion, since Jews are not Gods chosen people as I stated many times and explained. "Judaism attributes an irremediable inferior animal nature to all "Nations," namely all non-Jews, inferior by divine ordination to the "chosen" members of the Tribe."http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misanthropy Quotes form the bible. "8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do...." No good fruits their. "Ye have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you." Deuteronomy 9:24 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." (Mt 23:15) And many more harsher words. But lets not get into that and just look at the facts. I think people should read the religious post about the origins of Christianity in how it contradicts with Israel. ------------------ |
steveth45 Member Posts: 536 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-10-2005 |
Warsong, I disagree with you whole-heartedly. The nation of Israel was, is and will always be the chosen people of God. The Kingdom of God was only taken away from those Jews who rejected Christ. Jesus was and is the "King of the Jews". 'Meanwhile Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.' Matt 27:11 Yes, Jesus had some not nice things to say to the scribes and Pharisees, but they deserved that because they were poor religious leaders. He was not saying that to the Jews as a whole group. In fact, most of his personal preaching and ministry was directly to the Jews. There was no wholesale condemnation of the nation of Israel as you suggest. In fact, God's promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel) are eternal. There has been conflict between Christianity and the Jews. Mainly it has been Christians with faulty theology like yours oppressing and murdering Jews. Anti-Jewish sentiment, unfortunately, stems out of faulty Christian theology. The great Martin Luther had one major failing, he did not extend love towards Jews, but hatred and mistreatment. The mistreatment of Jews in Europe extended over centuries, culminating in Holocaust during World War 2, where millions of Christians and church leaders in Germany and surrounding areas turned a blind eye to the mass slaughter of God's chosen people. Christians who support Israel, an eternally oppressed people, are helping heal wounds that have seperated Jews and Christians for so long. ------------------ |
buddboy Member Posts: 2220 From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S. Registered: 10-08-2004 |
yay Steveth45!! ------------------
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Posts: From: Registered: |
LOL wrong, but still amusing. "Some described the Israeli air attack is example of Israeli state terrorism that targeted operations to assassinate individuals opposing occupation, by having also targeted ambulances of relief aid workers and even journalists in Lebanon." An entire state "Israel, an aggressive nation and a brutal occupier with advanced military power, is a country that likes to portray itself as a victim, and that its actions are in reaction to "terrorists" actions, and has succeeded in convincing some of this point of view. Few weeks ago, Switzerland, in a major declaration, said that Israel is in violations of humanitarian law, Geneva Convention. Also, a UN human rights committee approved investigating Israel in this regard." Here is a question. Who is worse the ones that do bad or the ones that follow the ones that do bad? You cant blame evil for doing its job but the fools that follow evil. Some replies are insane and close minded. Did anyone listen to the video and research more? I bet not but people want to throw opinions out. Steve Jest Luke If you believe in democracy and Christianity then you have to agree with what the majority of the world and civilized says, if not if not then you only have your self to blame since some throw out rational and facts or things to look blissful. Life is not pretty and people that portray it as it make it worse. Jews are not the bad guys since they do their job, the ones that cause the most problems are Christians for aiding bad actions. Just like how we cant blame a wolf for being hungry, but we should blame the Shepard for not taking care of its flock. I bet some people here even agree that the US attack on the Christian country Kosovo was good and its a shame how people judge without knowing all the facts. ------------------ [This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 11, 2006).] |
CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
If Israel were wiped out, do you think the terrorists would stop there? They'd just start building schools and hospitals and never bother us again? |
buddboy Member Posts: 2220 From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S. Registered: 10-08-2004 |
LOL!! 'ok Mr President, just move your troops on out and we'll leave you alone... UNTIL WE'RE DONE BUILDING OUR SILOS TO TAKE YOU OUT!!' lol. ------------------
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NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
quote: heh
quote: ....that has nothing whatsoever to do with being a "christian" .... as in a christian is a person saved by belief in Christ Jesus. Secondly, There is a principle in life, in business at least, that if 9 out of 10 friend advise against something....do it. I believe it was Disney....and he was correct more or less within 5%. Just because the "world" thinks one way...doesn't make it the right way....
As for UN politicians issuing claims and warnings....well....suffice to say anything a UN member says carries about as much weight of authority as a feather on a scale. I can't come up with the word at the moment but the UN has no (credibility, authority, meaningful presence, standard to judge, imperative, whatever the word is). It's like your average 8 year old local boy scout weighing in on the price of gas and how it will affect the economy....meaningless. The trend to build up the enemy as they are the victims, as if they are the ones with the moral imperative is sickening. okay now back to the first part of this post regarding "Logic"... The Bible says a lot in favor of wisdom. Reading Psalms and especially Proverbs will show a lot. The New Testament includes a number of references to the benefit of wisdom and why it should be desired. quote: Yet...
quote: Also 1 Corinthians 2
quote: [This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 12, 2006).] |
BlazeQ Member Posts: 260 From: USA Registered: 05-11-2002 |
quote:Don't you find it funny that the major Christian/Judaic nations support this, and the increasingly anti-Christian/Judaic nations support Hezbollah? The quoted logic is akin to saying: Most of the world thinks Jesus is a fake, therefore he must be a fake. Fallacy in logic known as ad populum, or "Everybody else is doing it."
quote:Two fallacies here. Ad populum once again and also ad verecundiam, or appeal to authority: "The pope and orthodox church said it's true, so it must be true."
quote:In other words, you want us not to believe what others say, but to believe what you say? I'm also curious how you believe your sources are any more valid than anyone elses.
quote:Congrats. 2 out of 2 for bad analogies and false information. The British government actually fought against the IRA. What is the Lebanese government doing? And I guess since Al Qaeda is soooooo much smaller and ill equipped than the US, we should just let them blow up our planes.
quote:My my, the threat of exclusion and hell because of support for the war; Sounds like ad metam, or appeal to fear: "If you don't believe this, then this bad thingy will happen." Quite a dichotomy there.
quote:Do you have unbaised sources for this, or are you going to claim this as common knowledge (sorry, yet another fallacy).
quote:See above and also Hasty Generalization
quote:Wow, that might be a record. Non sequitur, hasty generalization, ad metam, ad hominem, and a couple more no doubt.
quote:I couldn't help noticing your sig. Let me ask, is posting this fun topic that is meant to enlighten people, a good intention? ------------------ [This message has been edited by blazeq (edited August 12, 2006).] |
Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
Few things show the blindness and wickedness of the world as its attitudes and actions towards Israel. Israel has not done anything that any other nation on earth hasn't done, most of them recently. They have been repeatedly attacked, and yet every time they try to defend themselves, everyone in the world (except the US) comes down on them as the agressor. My first comment on this whole situation was that if we had people running the world in 1940 like those running it now... we'd all be speaking german and there wouldn't be any jews or slavs left. Then I thought better of that comment, and remembered my history a little better, and my next comment was.. the reason we had WWII and the reason 6 million jews and millions of slavs died, Poland, Czekoslovakia (sp), Austria, and France suffered at the hands of the Nazi's in the 1940's is because we had those kind of people running the world in the 1930's. If we had done what we ought to have 30 years ago, or 20 years ago... this situation would not exist now... putting it off now is only ensuring that we will face it again in the future when our enemies are stronger and we are weaker. Restraint and mercy are much to be valued in any nation at war... but our world today has confused lack of resolve with mercy. In war you fight with honor, but you fight to win. Israel in this engagement violated the first rule of war, one which the US has forgotten since WWII. If you fight, you fight to win. If you go to war, you crush the enemy as hard and as fast as possible. Peace is not the absence of armed conflict. Peace is victory. Further, in this particular conflict everyone is in a big hurry to pardon lebanon. I'm not. The reason Hezbollah is there and operates with impunity is because Lebanon allows it, and even encourages it. In my opinion the goverment of Lebanon is 'in bed' with Hezbollah and is complicit in their actions. ------------------ |
steveth45 Member Posts: 536 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-10-2005 |
You want evidence of violent anti-semitism in the Orthodox church? Just read "Against the Jews" by "Saint" John Chrysostom, a 4th century Archbishop of Constantinople considered a saint by the Orthodox church. Here is an excerpt: (He is referring to the Jews) "Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter." Amazingly, some try to defend these writings with arguments like, "most of the offensive statements were just rhetorical devices". Ha. ------------------ |
Ashton_JX Member Posts: 156 From: Springfield, Oregon, USA Registered: 02-21-2005 |
Warsong, what do you have against the Jewish people as a whole? Why judge an entire culture off of what the government is doing? Do you hate Jewish people? Have they hurt you somehow? ------------------ Tired of loosing your work for all eternity? Jesus Saves! You should too :P (liek every 1 1/2 seconds) This is a message from teh save the data foundation, and from (CTRL + S): Because da data is y00r future. Maybe. |
Max Member Posts: 523 From: IA Registered: 09-19-2004 |
Wow, BlazeQ, loved yer comments. Simon - I'm sooo glad you commented on this, I always love to hear what you have to say on things. Warsong... what's yer beef dude? You're picking a fight with Jews and Christians both. Umm, and you're attacking all of them. Which is kinda funny, because I'm sure you don't represent people like you. So, basically, person A does something wrong. So, everyone who believes the same thing person A does, is now a heretic and false and basically evil in your eyes. Right, ok, I don't think I even need to comment on that. ALSO, who on Earth are you to say whether anyone is Christian or not! "If you give them money, you aren't Christian" What if I said because you aren't giving them money, you aren't Christian. OOOO Becomes a word fight now, and the person who gets bored first loses. Also, heh, Christianity does not = logic. DUH. It = having Christ as your savior. I mentioned something in a topic earlier about Methodism. Logic is waaaay below the word of God. AKA the Bible. I don't give a twopence about your logic, Warsong, since you seemingly only want to destroy and hurt. You obviously do, I don't see what these posts are for if not to try and hurt someone. Also, Jews ARE God's chosen people. Read yer own verse silly!!! He said "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you" Nothing about no longer being the chosen people. You can't INFER it, cus who knows what God has in store? And yes, he was talking to the EVIL Jews, the ones who weren't doing right. ANALOGY - 15 out of 20 students fail a test. The teacher turns to them and says "Man you guys are stupid, looks like I'll see you all next semester" Oviously this doesn't apply to the 5 who passed. Why would Christ condemn people who did things the right way? And in RV, it doesn't say he took them away. Does it? HEHE, nope, it doesn't. Besides, a lot of the Jews get to live through the tribulation, to try to get them to believe in Christ. Yes, we can blame evil for doing its job. That's like saying the Devil made me do it, a load of horse poop. I see no basis for your arguements but a bad temper and misknowledge about Bible verses. IF the world as a whole is WRONG, then why do I have to side with them? Seems kinda silly to me. Warsong, I'm sorry to be so assanine in my response, but you weren't very polite either. So, until you show me some actual evidence from the Bible and stuff that isn't distorted to fit your views, I'll tend to ignore what you say as a misguided person trying to decieve us. A "False" prophet. We are warned against false prophets. 1. What does the Bible say? 2. What does Tradition say? 3. What does your experience tell you? 4. what does Logic say? THERE IS A REASON THAT LOGIC IS NUMBER 4, IT IS THE LEAST IMPORTANT. Anyhoo, enough out of me, it's probly a waste of time anyhow. ------------------ Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso |
jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
good job Max, that was along the lines of what i wanted to say but couldn't put the words together.
quote: warsong: secondly, what does comparing Muslims and Jews to Christians have to do with anything? Are you implying that because you believe that you are God's voice, you need to destroy all other cultures? i just don't see much that you say as anything but blind hate. Normally i wouldn't care, you can go do your own thing but you seem very intent on attacking other people and making sure that everyone shares your views. |
fearless Member Posts: 91 From: Romania, Tg Mures Registered: 11-26-2005 |
I have to agree with BudBoy, steveth45 and the others. Indeed God has some judgment pending for (Non-Christian) Jews but it's not for Christians to make that happen. "judgment belongs to God" Deuteronomy 1:17 [This message has been edited by fearless (edited August 14, 2006).] |
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Replying is easy but boring since its simple. Can anyone else reply since people so far lie, give weak arguments, and ignore the points. Most people dont know the full story and reply and dont know what a Jew is since some say its a religion, culture, society, ideology, etc. Lebanon is a republic in which the three highest offices are reserved for members of specific religious groups: the President must be a Maronite Catholic Christian. In 1932 it was mostly Christian, but Israel helped push them out by attacking them since to many here Israel can do whatever bad things it wants to Christians since they have a free pass to do anything bad in their eyes which is twisted logic. Not much protestants which is obvious that most protestants attack always other Christians and have killed more than any other Christian and non Christian religion but thats the hypocrisy of protestant leaders to say they are Christian while doing unchristian things, but nothing new. The country is not only where Christianity intermingles with Islam, but Lebanon is also an Arab gateway to Europe and a European bridge to the Arab world. "The one who tells the stories rules the world." - Hopi proverb You people ignore fact and side with anti Christian ways. Some in here that Christians are chosen people other say that Jews are, others say no one is, etc. Even Christ said not to interpret the bible on your own and whoever does so is against Christ. Gambling is a sin you know and gambling with information is far worse than wasting your money at a Casio since lies spread and cause more death and destruction. If you believe that Jews are chosen then you should believe in this too. Hey the stink is not far from the **** . I think this all stems from lack of education that the US has since the worst student in another country is one of the brightest students in the states. Which there is a Jewish saying that goes something like in a land of blind people the one with one eyes is the king The US not that good in its school accomplishments and some countries they are better in is because the other countries dont lover the standers in the education. India, china, Europe, etc are taking the high tech jobs from Americans for a reason and not just lower pay but better quality. I know the truth is harsh which is why its not said which is why we have politically correct thing since people cant handle the truth and that just makes things worse. Is this a Christian act? Does this sound like chosen people material to you? Can you imagine Christ going in a tank and doing that? If you can't see Christ doing it then you should not do it as well. ========================================== Netcog============== How do you think the bible was made? It was a majority vote that decided what should stay and go, so not what will you look for fake books? Even Disney as you quoted said things against Jews, the irony that Jews run his company now and make more immoral movies with their subsidiaries like touchtone like the movie the crying game you must have liked that movie how the women turns out to be a guy right? All of the Middle East now and the rest of the Christian world are against Israel even more. Is it logical to destroy an entire country to get terrorists? It is like taking a gun and grenade to kill a fly in your home which only an insane person would do, but if they do it only to another persons home then they are evil. As for the UN they are no angles but Israel is far worse. The UN has been targeted by Israel and they are not Muslims doing any terrorist attacks but bystanders evaluating the situation. When they object to what terrorist acts Israel is going then they get killed. Does china, Sweden, Canadian, etc like that their men are being attacked by Israel while working under the UN? If only these evil things can happen to you it seems so that you understand since you prefer the evil way and you will get what you wish for one day. Speaking of the 2000 year old historical site, Jews wanted it destroyed before the war and so they found an excuse to destroy it right after the worlds tax dollars helped to rebuild it while our other tax dollars helped give Israel weapons to destroy it. Blazeq========= And you think that protestant leaders that killed more act more Christian and less infallible? Peoples action are judges more and so if you compare actions the ones that are for the war have done more atrocities than the others have do not support it. If you want a war monger go convert to Islam or Judaism, since Christianity has no room for warmongers. You dont have to believe me but think about both sides. I gave links, history, examples and no one listens intentionally since they dont want to believe. But you have said false things withy no proof which I disputed anyway and you want others to believe. Here is a simple question, who has killed more in the last 100 years the Protestants denominations, Catholics, Hindu, and Buddhist? And would you agree that the ones that killed more is more Christian or less? Its a simple questions so dont try to confuse it and lie. I know the Brits went against the IRA. Do you say that the Lebanese Gov should destabilize the entire country and kills thousands of its people just like Israel did? Besides people are siding with Hezbollah more since Israel has been attacking them for many decade but you again ignores the facts that I gave on the links. The facts are the facts, if you sin a lot what do you think will happen that you will go to heaven? If you cant handle the truth then you are to blame and no one else. "Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity." So what you say is supporting iniquity and Christ. You dont know that the Muslim and Jewish religion believe in an eye for an eye? I kind of figures you didnt know what you were talking about. Well its not what people know its what people dont know that makes them say what they do. And I thought I would originally just give some news info from another side to make people think but no one wants to think and only defend. Kind of like how Christ tried to convert the Jews and they didnt want to think but defend. If people want to be Christian fine but dont say you are and act like another religion that is anti Christian. This post was not about Jews about logic. Simon=========== Steve===================== A saint calls some the devil Marin Luther said far more bad things. Read what I said to the others to understand the reply better since I know you will take it out of context. Asthton============ MAX================== If you see person A doing evil against person B does that make you evil or good? Evil happened when good men do nothing and when you let and justify evil to happen then it makes you evil too. This is basic logic which you do not or can not comprehend it seems. Chosen people for what? Only people that spread gods words are chosen. How will you understand when you dont even care to believe what the inspired word of God is. A few words can not persuade you to understand since you have done far astray. Be humble and go back to your Christian searching and history. Most of the apostles left and went to the Orthodox nations to help spread the word since they knew it was similar to what Christ said since that is what influenced Christianity. You can say the world is wrong but who has done more unchristian things and so which one is more likely you can trust? The US is has more than 80% Christians but mostly non Christians actions are done by fake Christians and by non Christians as stated before. I am being polite, its just that the truth is not nice. Ask a specific question and ill asker you. Jest============ ------------------ |
jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
Being a messenger of the world's news doesn't make you any holier then being the one in the tank, smashing buildings. Love is what makes christians; love for God and love for one another. I don't see a lot of love here. I see you attacking everyone else here because they don't have the time to devote to writing full blown responses. Not that i support quick responses with little thought but that is not my point here. God is powerful enough to defend his will and does not need zealots to go on crusades on his people. I acknowledge there are some sects that don't seem to be anywhere near what God's word says but it is sometimes very difficult to distinguish this, at least difficult without descernment through the holy spirit. I agree with you that people should be well informed and that the North American education systems are extremely lacking, however your stances are obnoxious at best. I am not necessarity disagreeing with your points, i have no read over them all very closely or validated the information. I am disagreeing with your methods and frankly i find them hypocritical. For someone going on about how "non-christian" people act, you aren't giving anyone an example. I've finished what i have to say and i will continue to pray for everyone here so that we will all be able to think clearly and not be at each others' throats for things that no one here can affect. Luke 21:9 |
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The love to invade another country is not love or good. To attack a country to instigate a conflict and on the smallest excuse start a fight is a pathetic and cowardly way to act but effective since many eat it up. Hey took me a while to reply since I was busy but you complain now that I reply to everyone since if I didnt then people would complain. Next time I guess I'll give one small reply to everyone. Can you blame me since since insinuate thing about me that is not true and then expect me for give them cany coated answers is odd. every action has a reaction. I say if anyone replies with more stupid analogies ill show you what harsh really is, since if some cant take nice then and want everyone to look pretty then they will be in a world of hurt when reality hits them which is why many ignore the facts since they are not pretty. God gives people fee will and people decide to be saved by their action. God didnt kill all the people in Lebanon people that support it did. Blaming God is a just an excuse to run away form responsibility. I am being blunt and not insulting, I am just abrasive and compared to others I dont make up lies (sin) as some have done which is worse. Lets not be PC and blame the facts that they are not nice. If Christ came in the flesh again the #1 people that would crucify him would be Christians, and thats the sad reality of it all. Think about it if someone came out and called Jews the devils like Christ did do you know what you happen and how many Christians would attack him. People want a PC Christ, and deep down you and everyone else knows thats true. If Christ was not Jewish the bible would have been banned already. You have to be a tactician of how the play the game to know how to win a war. Here is a strategy If someone has over 3000 years of experience in war you would think they know how to play the game to get what they want especially to fool another that has less that 200 years of experience like America in international wars. If people cant do the math then its not my fault since they dont get it. People should be realistic and look for the answers first. ------------------ |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
1. On a somewhat personal note: Don't make assumptions about people you don't know, about what they like or dislike or how they spend their time. Because that's all it is...an assumption, very likely flawed at that. 2. Jew is or can be all three, certainly two - religion, ethnic, or perhaps social. Jew(s), Judaism is unique like that. 3. quote: To question 1: By believing in Him who was sent for us.
quote: www.biblegateway.com or www.crosswalk.com are two sites I've used for Biblical textual searches should you want to find these passages.
I believe we can know for certain, or as certain as one can be, with study of the original Greek and Hebrew for passages for both 'sides'. The point is this. Please stop claiming an action of choice or sin having nothing to do with acceptance or rejection of Christ's salvationary work on the cross is grounds for labeling of "Is Christian" or "Is not Christian". Christians sin. Unbelievers sin. What's your point? The act of doing sin, when you boil it down to eternity, has nothing to do with anything. ** It's the being a sinful being with or without Sin's debt to God being paid. That's what the question of Christian or not is....the question has nothing to do with who you support internationally or who you support domestically. A feminazi could be a believer (christian), the pope could be a believer, the corner drunk could be a believer...the only 'action' that has any effect on our eternal direction is that of a choice - do we believe or not. Salvation is not about a "free pass" to act as they will. Believers are free from the bondage of sin, from the final penalty of sin (state of being human with an old sin nature without Christ's payment for our debt to God) which is eternal spiritual 'death' or separation from God. But salvation, like repentance, is not a license to sin. Thus doing sinful deeds can and does have repercussions here on earth and most probably in heaven. But as one saved by Christ's work, there is nothing I can do which will affect my eternal state of life...potentially blessings in eternity but not my state of winding up eternally in God's presence. Finally, the Old (and New) Testament is chock full of people who were "Christian" (Saved and in fellowship with God) and did a host of sins we might consider "shocking"... They lost the fellowship temporarily (or perhaps even unto mortal death - I don't remember Saul's ending) -and in a different manner than we do today- but they weren't suddenly destined for hell.
[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 15, 2006).] [This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 15, 2006).] |
steveth45 Member Posts: 536 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-10-2005 |
quote: Sigh. I never changed my story around. This is what I originally said, "Mainly it has been Christians with faulty theology like yours oppressing and murdering Jews." You interpreted that to mean that Orthodox christians in particular oppressed Jews, and that I was "ignoring history". I never said that. I spoke only of certain attitudes toward God's chosen people and the fruit of those attitudes. The writings of Chrysostom and others were used throughout Christendom to justify the violence and oppression. The reason I made light of Chrysostom's sainthood is that I agree, there is such a thing as a saint in the New Testament--it's every believer. That's right, there's no precedent set in the Bible for miracles or canonization to become a saint. Paul and other writers refer to the members of the various churches as "saints." It is traditional in the Catholic and Orthodox and a few other churches to elevate certain persons to the status of "Saint," but it is a superfluous title. "Saint" means "holy" or "set apart." All Christians are set apart for God and are saints. Do a word search on "saints", it is used quite liberally in the New Testament to refer to the believers as a group. Oh yeah, I thought what you said was funny: "Only a food will insult saints." I've been called a lot of things, but not food. ------------------ |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
I would highly recommend getting Anti-Semitism by R. B. Thieme, Jr. http://rbthieme.org/anti-sem.htm - free to order - a small book, about paperback dimensions with 150 some pages a couple of exerpts: quote: and (a slightly re-discovered perspective for me)
quote: Also in the book it describes Israel as an ethnic group since Abraham and a nation since Moses. * my print was 1991 That said, and not having finished the book yet, I'm still in favor of Israel over that of Lebanon. Lebanon government might have some of the right stuff...but it doesn't have enough if it can't get rid of Hezbollah. I'd say the same thing of England if the IRA would be making the same threats as Hezbollah and Hamas w/ the rest of the fundamental Muslims on the US and the rest of the Western World. [This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 15, 2006).] [This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 15, 2006).] |
jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
*confused expression* warsong: 1 Corinthians 14:1 (NLT for readability, i don't want to hear anything about my choice of translation) --> "Let love be your highest goal!" Colossians 3:12 (NLT) --> Make allowances for each other's faults, and forgive anyone who offends you. My post was directed towards you, not any distanced country. I'm not saying that i am in any way perfect, but i'm saying that it is hard to tell whether you are a believer or not just from the way you act.
quote: Now tell me honestly, do you actually agree with what you just said? that because someone said something to you, you need to lash out at them? |
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Steve=========== = I know what you said which I quoted. But Jews were slaughtering Christians which is why you get comments like that. You cant blame them in your comfortable chair and we are not as experienced as them or have first hand knowledge. I didnt say you are a fool, I say only a fool will insult Saints. Honestly now can you blame them? People dont make up things you know so dont assume people to be crazy and anti-Semitic. Anti-Semitic is someone that judges someone without reason. Also there are the exceptions which dont count when you generalize. So either which way your point was false. Jes=========== 1 Corinthians 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. But if you want an example of ignorance (lacking information) lets take Netcog ------------------ |
D-SIPL Moderator Posts: 1345 From: Maesteg, Wales Registered: 07-21-2001 |
quote: You sound like Michael Moore... ------------------ |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
Point out where I said it's okay to sin and I'll change my mind... |
Max Member Posts: 523 From: IA Registered: 09-19-2004 |
Wow, hey guys, lets ignore him!!!! Since he obviously refuses to see ANY other way than his own. Please, for the sake of the forum, lets ignore Warsong, his one-sided opinions don't seem to add anything to this place. I'm tired of making valid points and having him just say - No, you're wrong, without showing me how. It's all OPINIONS, OPINIONS, OPINIONS!!! Thank you. ------------------ Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso |
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Max don't be a hypocrite and I showed facts which you ignore. Here are some more FACTS!!!!!! Tell me are these Christian actions? the church said is a "Heresy" to say that people are chosen so if people dont want to be heretics they should know their facts better. Dispute these FACTS! As I said I get weak replies and I am the only one giving facts from news sources and historical references that pertain to the topic.
There laws for a reason and for anyone to jump over laws in favoritism of an attacking state are hypocritical. Unbiased spectators stated the facts while the News that most people here listen to is biased since they are with them. Evil actions will not go unpunished despite some people think that they are immune. "To your descendants, I shall give this land, from the River of Egypt to the great Euphrates River." Genesis 15:18 They want more land, so how do you get more land by asking Muslims to walk, no you use the strategy as stated before. Imagine if 1/2 of the US went to another country and they boot you out of your home. Lol Well the vast majority of Americans are broke so what will they do it that happened sit on the street and beg for money? I have to hand it people are amusing; I cant wait to see what next odd reply. "Sharon believes in a greater Israel, and the only way to accomplish this objective is through an all out war. We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid Galilee of its Arab population." David Ben-Gurion 1948 " Hizbullah deserves as fair a hearing as Israel, though at the moment it most certainly is not getting it. " "Israel decided to create an expanded fortress state, where only Jewish blood and Jewish religion count." "BBC cameras, the port includes many sites far more strategic than the roads, bridges, milk factories and power stations Israel is destroying in Lebanon: it has the oil refinery, the naval docks and other installations that, yes, I cannot mention because of the censorship laws."Journalist Jonathan Cook based in Israel jkcook.net "Foreign Ministry official says Israelis recklessly killing Lebanese" "We now know from reports in the U.S. media that the Israeli army had been planning such a strike against Lebanon for at least a year." They were just looking for any small excuse to attack. "Since Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000, there have been hundreds of violations of the "blue line" between the two countries. The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) reports that Israeli aircraft crossed the line "on an almost daily basis" between 2001 and 2003, and "persistently" until 2006. These incursions "caused great concern to the civilian population, particularly low-altitude flights that break the sound barrier over populated areas". On some occasions, Hizbullah tried to shoot them down with anti-aircraft guns. " "David Ben Gurion, the first Israeli Prime Minister, once said, "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?"" "enable Israel and the United States to impose a capitulation on the Palestinians or, worse, effect an ethnic cleansing against hundreds of thousands of Palestinians." "Meanwhile the battle for Iran is still in the early phases, the war in Iraq is going very badly for the Americans, Lebanon has been destroyed again, the Palestinians are suffering far worse than apartheid, the credibility and resources of the American Empire are draining away at an accelerating pace, and the hatred for Israel is bubbling over. The Neocons and the Israeli Lobby have been working for years now in crusading fashion to bring the world to the verge of what is now a potential slow-burn world war. That is what they have been planning for some time largely because it fits the Israeli geopolitical design for the Middle East region. " "the unwillingness in some quarters of the media to report the fact reflects a poor understanding of Israel's historical use of violence. The roll call of dishonor is long indeed, but its highlights include: the massacre of some 200 civilians in Tantura, as well as large-scale massacres in at least a dozen other Palestinian villages, during the 1948...." The true reasons for these deaths are concealed from credulous observers by Israel's use of Orwellian language. When it says it is destroying the "infrastructure of terror," Israel means it is crushing all Arab resistance to its territorial ambitions in the region. The "infrastructure" includes most Arab men, women and children because they continue to support against Israel's wishes their peoples' rights to self-determination without interference from the Israeli army. " http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=9390 If Israel can exist only by destroying the neighboring countries, then it's a failure. the country should defend but also give security which they will never have that when they keep killing many countries citizens and acting like the victims. Israelis strategy is to destroy more, be fanatic, intolerant, violent, and hatred towards others in the utmost unchristian way. Their actions has hurt the entire world which is why everyone is upset, but people in the US do not understand it so well and put fuel to the fire which is why the US is number 2 on the list for instigating it which is what the majority of the Christian and non Christian world think because they see it first hand. Do the math. Person A doesnt like Person B, but person B supports what person A does which in turn Hurts person B. ------------- "Every truth passes through three stages before it is recognized. In the first it is ridiculed; in the second it is opposed; in the third it is regarded as self-evident."Arthur Schopenhauer Jew taking the land back is against God, and they got booted for a reason. If they became Christian then it would have been just to go back to Israel but they did it in the most unholy way and everyone is paying for it despite most Americans blindly agreeing with it and ignoring the long list of unpleasant fact which many dont want to listen to since they want to be PC to believe lies that the long list of fact and that kind of attitude is evil on it's own. http://www.iocc.org/ if anyone changed their minds and can afford it. d-sipl===== Netcog===
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CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
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HanClinto Administrator Posts: 1828 From: Indiana Registered: 10-11-2004 |
Hi Warsong. There is much that I could comment on, but I will limit myself to this one:
quote: Jesus actually quoted from both the Hebrew and the Greek Old Testament. The common version that his audience was familiar with was of course the LXX, and he often quoted from that. But certainly one of his most powerful quotations from the Old Testament was in Hebrew/Aramaic: quote:
quote: On a separate but related topic Warsong -- I just want you to know that I really care about the people here on these boards. I spend a good deal of time and effort into researching and writing posts because I feel that this is a good community where we can all pursue Truth together. I'm worried that your comments may be harmful to some of the younger audience here. Better a millstone be tied around your neck and you be thrown into the sea than you lead one of the little ones astray. Just please be careful. Let's pursue God together, and seek Truth. Let's lay personal agendas of opinion aside, be willing and humble to admit when we're wrong, compare notes on what we've studied, and really seek His face. High energy discussion can be good, and I'm glad that you're passionate -- too often in today's society people just don't care about much of anything. But if we're all going to be travelling this road to Heaven together, we should probably try and get along better. If you hold a sword at a slight angle to a grinding stone, it makes a few sparks and ultimately the sword is sharper. However, if you make the angle too sharp, you get a whole lot of sparks, and ultimately the sword is duller. A little conflict among brothers can be good, a lot of conflict is likely bad. Let's try and sharpen each other instead of grinding each other to bits. In Christ, |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
quote: While HanClinto is correct that is not what I was referring to. Primarily Greek (new testament), Hebrew -or derivatives- (old testament). I was talking specifically about the eternal status - life or death - of our soul. I don't believe sin can be done with impunity; action has consequence. But I don't believe (not just a simple opinion I've reached) sin (the action of doing a sin) has any effect on whether one is saved or not. The only "sin" that has an effect on our status (as referenced above) in eternity is the one of not believing in Christ Jesus as the Son of God who died for us. All other sins or advancing in the knowledge (relationship) of Jesus Christ affects the cursings (punishments not having to do with whether we have eternal life or death) or blessings we have on Earth and in Heaven. As an aside...do you think that because I reject where I feel you are wrong that I don't read or perhaps even don't see where at least some of what you are saying is coming from? (You can replace "I" with anyone else here you've ranted against for being ignorant or otherwise sinning because we do not agree with what you say). |
ClownHunter Member Posts: 10 From: Registered: 06-14-2006 |
I don't have time to read through all of this but here's my take on the situation:
quote: Yes, killing innocent Israeli children is ok! When Israel fights back...BAD! Israel should suffer! Wow....great thinking, man.
quote: wtf are you reading? I'm no bible lover but I know that God went to everyone first to try to give up the commandments. They all said no. Jews said yes. Jews are still happy with the commandments.
quote: As I recall that's the Jews whole claim to fame. |
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Former American president "Jimmy Carter" Condemns Israeli Action in Lebanon "I don't think that Israel has any legal or moral justification for their massive bombing of the entire nation of Lebanon," Carter said. "What happened is that Israel is holding almost 10,000 prisoners, so when the militants in Lebanon or in Gaza take one or two soldiers, Israel looks upon this as a justification for an attack on the civilian population of Lebanon and Gaza. I do not think that's justified." "Our country always had a policy of not going to war unless our own security was directly threatened and now we have a new policy of going to war on a preemptive basis." But everyone else here justify that Israel hold prisoners without trial and torturing them. I guess many are clueless or are evil, but everyone has an opinion despite it being very wrong. As stated ignorance is one of the roots to being evil. It's not what people knows its what they dont know that makes the world worse. Peoples decisions to support this war are un-American, unconstitutional, unchristian, and again "real" long term peace for everyone. Ok replies ================ HAN=== As I stated in the other post about the passion that the language to the movie was wrong. The Jews spoke to each other Aramaic, the Romans spoke to each other Latin, but they communicated with one another in Greek since that was the main language at the time just like how English is the main language. As for what you say about comments being harmful, well maybe since this topic is not for kids but for adults. What do kids know about politics? I know I didnt care when I was a kid and didnt care for the news just like every other kid, or maybe the news was boring years ago. You know I didnt insult anyone directly first and I present another view which many object to another view which that kind of thinking is wrong. We have to remember the point of freedom of speech is to find the truth especially in politics, but now in todays society they abuse it to use it against people to attack character than the points which does against the founding fathers of the US and the constitution which happen to be influenced by Christianity. Netcog===== Clow=== There are more than 10 commandments, but they do not follow the first 10 and go against it. That was not Jews claim to fame as you stated but maybe it is to the liberal protestant sects. I explained everything in details which is why this is such a long post. ------------------ |
CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
(In response to my picture)quote: Ah, judging me by my religion. I would expect as much from a racist. Your conspiracy theories didn't convince anyone! Max is right, time to stop casting pearls, as you Christians say. |
D-SIPL Moderator Posts: 1345 From: Maesteg, Wales Registered: 07-21-2001 |
quote: Ah, judging me by my religion. I would expect as much from a racist. Your conspiracy theories didn't convince anyone! Max is right, time to stop casting pearls, as you Christians say. [/QUOTE] LOL ------------------ |
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I was the one that comments on casting pearls since not even facts from official news sites, leaders, other countries, philosophers, or the BIBLE is good enough for some to understand which they all object. Hypocrisy and ignorance... what a dangerous combination. Obviously no one likes to loose which is why they go to the last resort to attack the person and making thing up than the argument in a failed attempt to win. Even Former US president doesnt think this is moral (not Christian) of people to support it so should we attack Carter than his points? People judge in their comfortable chairs and support that others are suffering is not Christian no matter how you slice it. How can something be a conspiracy when the majority of Christians and non Christians agree? The facts, main news, respectable people, and the experts said it themselves. Well at least the majority understand no need to deal with the few, just like getting the entire pie so who cares about the crumbs. ------------------ [This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 18, 2006).] |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
Re: majority...how about a case study or two? I direct the esteemed participants in this thread to the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. I direct the esteemed participants in this thread to the history of the Roman Empire or of the time during the birth of the Church (Christianity in general...not the "Catholic" or "Orthodox" churches) I direct the esteemed participants in this thread to the history of the French Revolution. I direct the esteemed participants in this thread to the history during the build up and expansion of the Third Reich. Just a tip but the "majority" in any general population group is rarely (or 'not often') correct. oh btw - generally...in war...the victor does most of the killing. *shrug* That's usually how a battle is won. Or at least the victor does most of the destruction - be it life, equipment, or moral. p.s. just for some extra reading about the region A little history - of which I haven't read it all yet [This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 19, 2006).] |
Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
Frankly, people who condemn Israel for its recent actions have lost touch with reality and most cases are completely hypocritical to boot. I think that agreeing to the current resolution was a terrible terrible mistake which undoubtedly was prompted by plenty of pressure from the US. Both Israel and the US will pay heavily for it I suspect. We are in the midst of a global conflict, a war between two cultures. It is coming to a drastic conclusion and every time we refuse to defeat the enemy now, we ensure more destruction in the end. ------------------ |
D-SIPL Moderator Posts: 1345 From: Maesteg, Wales Registered: 07-21-2001 |
Ok this thread has gone on long enough! The bible says this... Those that bless Israel will be blessed, those that curse Israel will be curses. Now thats from God, accept it. End of... ------------------ |
buddboy Member Posts: 2220 From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S. Registered: 10-08-2004 |
lol, i said that at the very beginning. good luck with stopping it that way. you *should* just close it. ------------------
RADIOACTIVE IE AHEAD! int name() |
Max Member Posts: 523 From: IA Registered: 09-19-2004 |
I agree with Budboy, D-Sipl, just close it. This has no more good left in it. ------------------ Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso |
D-SIPL Moderator Posts: 1345 From: Maesteg, Wales Registered: 07-21-2001 |
I think it's pretty much closed now. If anyone has anything NEW to add then feel free, i'm all in favour of freedom of speech and a good debate. But in the light of scripture you can't disagree with that. It's God breathed, end of. The bible says to pray for Israel. I suggest we all do so ------------------ |
Max Member Posts: 523 From: IA Registered: 09-19-2004 |
One last thing. Romans, Chapters 8 and 9. I know most of you will probly pass it by and not read it, but I think it explains a lot about being a Christian and about Jews and stuff. Romans 8:9-10 NIV - You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 - But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. Romans 9:30-32 NIV - What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith ;31 - but Israel, who pursues a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 - Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "sumbling stone." Check these two chapters out if you have questions (It's ok, they are short.) ------------------ Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso |
demon_slayer2839 Member Posts: 22 From: Registered: 08-01-2004 |
Ezekiel 38 and 39 is all this war is leading too. Soon enough Russia and all it's little mid-east buddies are going to go down to Isreal and try to whoop up on a little and God's going to raise up the U.S., Cananda, England, and Australia the jump to their defense. Why do you think we're in Iraq, it's just a short jump to Isreal and we're there. But anyways, God's going to miraculously save Isreal in the face of utter destruction. And then comes the good part the Rapture. |
jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
actually, if memory serves me, the dead will rise before the rapture, no? i haven't read Revelation in a while so i could be wrong... |
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As the bible says when you use violence you encourage more violence. ""The secretary general is deeply concerned about a violation by the Israeli side of the cessation of hostilities," a spokesman for Mr Annan said on the UN website. " BBC Israel didnt stop its attack on the cease fire but if anyone else did it then watch out which there is a double standard. Israel has a free pass to do anything even use nukes if they wanted too since so many support it becasue they dont know the fuill story. Just like how so many favored all the christian churches destoryed in kosovo by the US to replace it with muslims. UGGGGGGGGGG Republicant know that was a BS war but o well. Regans advisor Pat Buchanan explained it well. http://www.townhall.com/columnists/patbuchanan/archive.shtml NetCog=== Simon==== D-siple===== Christ comes when things are really bad and supporting this does not show that we are taking the right actions. If we weight it all I still have more evidence which many can not dispute. Why are the respectable people, Christ, and the majority of the church that deals with them every day ignored? Money and land thats why. ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
......According to Wikipedia the Ottomans sold the first few sets of land to the Jews, then the British, who still had control of the land during that time gave the Jews more land to expand upon and allowed and encouraged more Jews in immigrate into the area, however, the Arabs of the area didn't like it and started quarelling with the Jews. The British and the UN tried to solve it all by splitting the land in half, however the Arabs got mad and Israel didn't get any where near what they were promised, and when the British gave up jurisdiction of the land the Arabs tried to take it back and it's be problems ever since. Just a thought. Christianity is not non-violent, nowhere in the Bible will you see it said that Christianity is non-violent, but you WILL see that our violence is against the things of the spiritual realm, powers and principalities, and against our own flesh (which we are to beat and crucify daily). The conflicts and wars we see around us are part of the time, they are nessecessary, because "all creation is groaning, as in the pains of childbirth". We have to look deeper than the surface Warsong, see beyond the physical, beyond our intellect and our logic, and see what's really going on. Go through your Bible, study up on the end times and on Israel's place in the plan of God, pray about it and hunt for the truth that lies deeper than logic or man's intellect. There's more here than meets the eye, and if all you do is look with your eye, you will see precious little, and you will miss God's purpose and his plan. ------------------ Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one. |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
quote: 1. I'll get to the rest of your post later. 2. I'd like chapter and verse on this if you don't mind. Assuming you are actually quoting Christ, in which case it would not be the "turn the other cheek" passage. 3. If it's not chapter and verse, and/or that statement is based off "turn the other cheek", please provide who and from where you are quoting. Thanks. [This message has been edited by netcog (edited August 22, 2006).]
quote: The point being ... majority isn't always right...Sodom and Gomorrah were pretty much 100% evil...I'd say that classifies as more than simply 'those in power'.
quote: 1. How do you connect Sodom and Gomorrah to Jews? 2. [This message has been edited by netcog (edited August 23, 2006).] |
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Netcog====== About Christ objecting to violence and why one site says a few quotes. I am surprise you dont know the quotes. http://www.incommunion.org/articles/essays/christ-and-violence One quote is Violence begets unending violence, for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword (Matthew 26:52) And whoever doesnt follow Christ will help make WW3. A lot of good bible quotes on the link. Yes the French revolution was bad and they replace one tyrant with another. But as you see if wouldnt have happened if the elite didnt treat its people inhumane. Obviously the majority is not always right but when you are against a greedy elite with self interests then their will be problems. As for Hitler he got power and popularity by the rich elite Americans and he was Times man of the year and so was Stalin 2 times I think, also that many of the rich Jews in the US gave Hitler a lot of money to get the power. And you know to run for office and win as everyone knows depends on how much money you have and who you know to win. If the US elite didnt interfere and give money to other countries for their self interests then it would most likely not have happened and 50 million (as one site says) people would not have died. Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of homosexuality which seem to be a normal practice in Israel now it seems as the Jewish news site states, and they help push for it in the US which they admit like the ACLU which is a Jewish dominated organization which I gave you the link before that explained that. Anyway I dont get your other points or what you want exactly. Ok to put it differently the majority of Christian priests are against the war since it is not Christian. Who would you trust a educated person of religion or a politician? Everythingh clearn now? ------------------ |
jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
i thought we wanted to close this thread... |
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Jex that would be going against the constitution and Christianity, also it's not like things got out of hand and fights broke out lol. Did you read the link about what Christ thinks about violence? Maybe I should post about that separately. Anyway it's easy to attack Muslim countries since no one cares about them; it's like a bad person doing bad things against another bad person. Anyway here is some more news. Officials warn that if all the oil from the damaged plant were to seep into the sea, the environmental fallout could rival the 1989 Exxon Valdez spill that devastated Alaska's Prince William Sound." "Amnesty International on Wednesday accused Israel of war crimes, saying it broke international law by deliberately destroying Lebanon's civilian infrastructure during its recent war with Hezbollah guerrillas." "anyone really surprised that Israel violated the cease-fire? Here, after all, is a nation that has defied the United Nations on 321 different occasions, refused to sign the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, and proudly proclaims its own lawlessness. Only a fool, or a masochist, would count on Tel Aviv to keep its agreements. Apart from that, however, this latest raid underscores the real objective of what the American media insists on calling the Israeli "incursion" (never "invasion") into Lebanon: it's all about Syria and Iran." "But, as it turns out, democracy has nothing to do with it: it's all about destabilizing the region to pursue an Israeli agenda. That agenda is the breakup and atomization of the Arab-Muslim world, so that it is little more than a collection of splinters. Lebanon is only the first phase of this campaign, and the Israelis are pushing ahead no matter what Washington thinks." "it is only a matter of time before there is a public split." "the U.S./French effort to engineer a cease-fire, but, as we have seen, the Israelis can violate this and face no immediately discernible consequences. Condoleezza Rice went to Israel to try to cobble together a cease-fire and was undercut by the IDF's murderous assault on Qana. Condi was reportedly furious" "the president of the United States forges ahead with this mad plan to "transform" the Middle East. It's an outrage, an act of treachery, and, yes, treason on a scale never before seen. " "The Israeli raid has showed how powerless the UN and the U.S. are against not Hezbollah, but Tel Aviv. As Maj. Gen. William L. Nash, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, put it to the New York Times: ------------------ |
Max Member Posts: 523 From: IA Registered: 09-19-2004 |
Warsong, I've found you of all people don't know what God wants, heh. I don't care about any quotes you throw at us except for the Bible. Your opinion is not fact. Something you quite often overlook. (I'm gonna get a witty slam, OH NO!!!) ------------------ Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
quote: LOL... When you begin to define the act of making war as a war crime then any battle participant is guilty. Not that you'll agree with anything here (though you might), for my reference and others on the topic of Christ and pacifism...even a few other points such as who I would trust. http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/library/militia/1-1.html And http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/war/christianity.shtml which offers an interesting counter-point (balance or perspective) to the first link with some historical reference.
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Max Yes we understand u dont care about the facts in what the news says, or the bible, or the majority of Christians, or experts, or political leaders, etc. If you care only from what the bible says then reply only to that part when you reply than complain. Net ------------------ |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
Warsong, you're assuming again... Here's the (or a) kicker....I don't believe the news companies, UN, AI, or most of the rest of the international community, or nations for that matter, are unbiased. And I've seen enough to have that as a valid suspicion. And to take what you said about history being written by those who win it would seem (by your words) I shouldn't trust that perspective either...so by your words since we can't trust history, we're kinda SOL if we don't believe the UN and those associated with it.
quote: Wrong. Jesus Christ controls history.
quote: Well I would have to say you're right. Which is why I'm certainly not going to blithely take up arms or a soapbox position against Israel in favor of those who are attacking her....have been attacking her since nigh time immorial. In the face of two SOVEREIGN NATIONS, both of whom might or might not be operating in a mistaken fashion, best case is to let them have at it. Worst case, support the one best suited to our interests - which would include any positioning in the Bible. Israel might not be "actively special" but Lebanon isn't, hasn't, and probably won't ever be in such a position with God (though it's not impossible they'd become a 'client nation'). [This message has been edited by netcog (edited August 26, 2006).] |
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Netcog So you say that everyone else is biased and the US is unbiased? If so thats a biased statement lol The people that benefit from the war say their biased opinions which is 3 countries US, England, and Israel. While the rest of the countries which greatly outnumber those 3 say other wise and lets say some are biased but not all are biased, and so for that many countries against then you see that there is a bias on your side. The logical odds are against you in this for this war. Ok here is how to understand what is unbiased, if 3 people beat up 1 person, should you. Your comments defiantly show you did not get out of school yet or see the real world. No one is suited for out interests and the best thing suited for out interest is to do what CHRIST said. For many people to be suffering in Lebanon maybe u should go live their and feel how to be a regular civilian. You could not defend any of the violent actions and the unchristian actions that are taking place, since when you defend unchristian actions then what kind of Christian are you? Giving special treatment to a race which some people call is racist despite them not being a real race as they even state. Its all politics! More news from BBC which is suppressing they have the other side sometimes but freedom of speech is practiced more in Europe despite that Americans dont want to believe it and want to feel that they are #1 which that kind of thinking is not humble at all. More news on the side of the site Here is another question, if someone took 10,000 of your people and didnt give them a trial and tortured them and they do not care to give them back since they have over 10 times the weapons and the backing of 2 powerful countries what would you do? Two crazy cultures/religions fighting each other, but its interesting to see what side people are on and how they make illogical decisions. ------------------ |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
Where did I say the US was "unbiased"? *edit* As applied to the real world...No one is "neutral" in this situation. One _might_ have been able to claim neutrality during WWI/II...maybe...but not with the Middle East.
quote: ~~~~ Otherwise Christ didn't actually exist, or certainly wasn't God becoming flesh, dying, then rising again into Heaven, whose work paid the penalty of sin. Just something to think about. [This message has been edited by netcog (edited August 29, 2006).] |
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The majority is not always right just like how the majority that replyed in here are not, but the majority of what christ says is againt it. Obviously quality is better than quantity but you also have quantity and quality that is againt the war. [This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 30, 2006).] |
HanClinto Administrator Posts: 1828 From: Indiana Registered: 10-11-2004 |
quote: I encourage people to read what the Bible truly does say about looking out for the poor, the widow, for giving justice to those oppressed, etc. People take one passage out of the Sermon on the Mount and build a whole doctrine of pacifism out of it. Just so you all know, Warsong is overstating a pacifist's position by saying that the "majority" of scripture speaks this way. It's a tough issue, but it's not as clear-cut in scripture as Warsong makes it sound. --clint |
JeTSpice Member Posts: 433 From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA Registered: 06-10-2006 |
May this not be redunant--Please forgive me as I haven't read every part of the thread. The Jew should not gloat. The gentile should not be envious. The blessings of the Jew are not earned, they are spoken forth by God as irrefutable law. If a gentile points to a Jew and says "No fair," he is going against God's sovergnty, right though he may be. But he is not right at all because he has gone against God. If a Jew demands respect for no reason other than he is a Jew, he too goes against God, by claiming that God recognizes him as superior. Even if he is more blessed than the gentile, he goes against God. We're called to play no favorites as Christians, but our obedience to what God has said commands blessings. None of this can be understood without the Spirit of Christ living in a person. In the future, all the world will rise up against Israel. But whoever protects Israel will be blessed. Even in this, if Israel has done wrong, God will rebuke her, because he said he will do so, and he is not a man that he should lie, and vengance is the Lord's. But a protector of Israel will not lose a blessing because Israel did not deserve to be protected. A protector is not protecting Israel, after all, but is obedient to the Word of God. If a protector of Israel is wicked, the protector will receive the blessings deserved, and also the curses of wickedness. God is just, and will not be mocked. Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. |
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IS THIS PROGRESS This IS a Christian act?? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5301624.stm "The Lebanese government has previously put the cost of damage at $3.6bn. It has also asked for funds to help clear landmines and unexploded cluster bombs, which are preventing farmers returning to their fields." "humanitarian chief condemned the "completely immoral" way Israel dropped thousands of cluster bombs on Lebanon even as a resolution appeared imminent." "At the donors' conference in Sweden, Mr Siniora told delegates the month-long conflict had plunged Lebanon's economy into a "deep recession". "Lebanon, which only seven weeks ago was full of hope and promise, has been torn to shreds by destruction, displacement, dispossession, desolation and death," he said." "Before the conflict erupted, Lebanon had one of the more promising economies in the Middle East, with the government forecasting strong growth of 6% and paying off its debts. Now it says output will plummet and it will run a deficit for the first time in several years. Unemployment is up sharply, and industry, agriculture, tourism and fishing were badly damaged" Only a coward would kill innocent unarmed civilians, destroy in one month what took decades to build, and take on someone over 10times weaker, while instigating problems and making the other suffer before during and after. All you Christians should take the place of the Christians that live their and see the new tune you will play. It is not if this is Christian or not, but what has been done is just EVIL. Han-- Jet-- [This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 31, 2006).] |
JeTSpice Member Posts: 433 From: La Crosse, Wisconsin, USA Registered: 06-10-2006 |
Warsong-- thanks for a civilized reply in a heavy topic. It appears to me that most of what you say is that "Israel doesn't deserve." Is this correct? If so, please understand that I have no ability to address that issue--no knowledge from which to judge. But if you say "Therefore don't bless Israel," you are going against the Word of God. Whether the Jews deserve a blessing or whether they do not, God's words are eternal, and he says "Whoever blesses Israel will be blessed." If you have difficulty with this, then pray for Israel and also pray for other countries. Your obedience to God will command a huge blessing, especially if you are so against it. If I might say so, you have a great gift for debate, but not much scripture backing up what you have to say. You use a lot of news and philosophy--you're very learned--but you could be a lot more effective and convincing if you speak to Christians in terms of scripture. Just a thought. Again, thanks for the civil response. edit: I noticed that you did start out with scripture, so I rescind. I said "if you have the spirit of Christ, then you will understand." But you did not understand. I hope you do understand, because it requires the Spirit of the Lord inside you. If you don't understand, then you need to invite the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit to come and dwell inside you. You say "people will cry, 'Lord, Lord.'" This always frightens me into humility. Does it frighten you, too, or do you have a sense of "being right"? If you feel "right" all the time, then you do not have the ability to know if you are wrong or not. You can only have this ability by inviting in the Holy Spirit. If you have already acknowledged Jesus as your Lord and Savior, and invited Him in, and declared Him with your mouth, then please forgive my ignorance. But you sound like no Christian I've ever heard. You have also said that Christians go to heaven by their actions and that Christianity = logic. Right actions and right thinking are certainly by-products of a mature Christian. But do you believe that actions and thinking are the foundation of Christianity, or do you believe that Christians are defined by the Spirit of Jesus living inside them? I mean no offense by any of this. But you might not have the promise of salvation. The promise is the deposit of the Holy Spirit. You might be the one who is crying "Lord, Lord," but you haven't shared yourself with the Lord. If you want to be sure, it's really easy. You say a prayer to God, acknowledging that you are a sinner (unworthy, less-than-perfect, work-in-progress, etc.), and also acknowledging that the only way to God is through Jesus, God's only begotten son who died on the cross for all of us. Also, the Bible says that if you acknowledge Christ before men, then Jesus will acknowledge you before the Father. So, tell people that you believe Jesus died for your sins and he rose again and that you are going to Heaven. It's important to say it. When you say this, and also believe it, the Holy Spirit comes to dwell in you. Then you are a Christian. It's the most exhilerating thing you'll ever do, and it will change your life forever! [This message has been edited by JeTSpice (edited August 31, 2006).] |
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Again thats the OT, Christ didnt say that, taken away from Jews, Israel was under another control, and caused problems ever since they came to the region and instigating violence. It doesnt matter who does it since doing bad is bad no matter who you are and no one has special treatment since Christ said everyone is equal. Jews in Israel are no saits and have done just as much or more attrocities than anyone. Some examples are "Israel, the report says, is a destination point mainly for women trafficked", the biggest kiddi porn sites were closed since it came from Israel, biggest spy rings the first marriage with an animal happened their, gay porn performed live infront of soldiers for entertainment which i dont get how a government facility allows that, many human rights violations, they have a big list of war crimes, they use porn as a weapon to distract who they are againt,its a save haven for criminals and the world is trying to bust then and its hard since the US backs them up which many ignore international news and then they complain thay are chosen, chosen for what exactly they dont say. There is a lot to say which I have said with a long post and a lot of detailed replies and backed it up with news, history, law, scriptures, and more but people want to take a site since that is what they are taught to believe. Some of the comments you should also take sine it can apply to you more. If I am a Christian you never heard of well I am blunt and dont fool around. Others say it better than me at times and they do since when I reply some dont get it and someone else explains it better. I know what you mean and agree on the points you made but people assume wrongly since they feel that I present that I know it all, but I only show that facts which is why I quote and ask questions which many do not dispute so easily. I deal with many people that say they are Christians and they love to do sin I just bluntly say what they do is wrong logically and if that doesnt work them I point it out in the bible and many get mad since they love what they think and do and dont change while some change. If everyone agreed with the facts then we would not all be in different sects. But I am bearing nice to others compared to orthodox which I am much harsher on lol. Obviously everyone sins and some try not to and some do it with joy all the time. But as the bible says Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven And even St.Paul said faith alone without action is nothing. ------------------ [This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 31, 2006).] |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
Verse and Chapter for Paul's comment? Christ came to fulfill the law...not abolish it. Principles in the Old Testament hold true today, tempered (if that's the correct word...perhaps "perspective" or "a revisit of some points" is better) with New Testament Grace, Mercy, and Love. But that doesn't nullify the principles in the Old Testament. p.s. Normally I wouldn't do this so late (after midnight) but I thought I'd take some time since tomorrow's friday and look at your links and maybe look up a couple of details... *as I read* heh.... You need to stop going off and maybe read your sources a little more and maybe present them in correct light rather than pulling out what you want in the effort to prove your point instead of pulling the right perspective or context... heh, the second article is quoting Hamas and other anti-Israeli operations....like I'm going to take their report without a grain of salt. lol, and the third says nothing more than Israeli and other international businesses are or potentially engaging in industrial espionage....something the article references the Israeli police are looking into (aka to try to fix)...you make it sound as if (A) Israel (Israeli personnel, companies, etc) is the only one doing it (computer shenanigans), (B) those doing it are under directive from Israeli government. As for Israeli porn
The pertinent-details are still left to Hamas attacking first. And any "resolution" handed down by the UN has as much weight as a feather on my back. There will be no lasting peace globally - or probably even locally to the Middle East - until Christ comes back...until then the closest a country can get is to WIN a war. We proved it in WWI and WWII by victory...we proved it again in the rest of the skirmishes we've had since then...pretty much failure after failure. The First Gulf War being a good example. You gain military peace by winning, there is no other option. *Especially* when you are at odds ideologically rather than a conflict resulting from an error or misperception. David didn't try to reason with Goliath. Not only can you find that in your history books but you'll find that in the Old Testament. ---- A cold war, a cancer on our doorstep, or a DMZ isn't peace, it's a credit card.
World viewpoint means squat, the Bible might have something to say against the population of Israel's personal choices but it doesn't give you the right to pass judgement upon the nation...and by history's record you really shouldn't want to be the sword of God to deliver such punishment...but the Bible also shows exactly what is and isn't within a nation's rights and responsibility to defend itself....no matter who it is or how deep into sin a population might get, those principles of national sovereignty still apply to that nation. and at the end of the day.....they are sovereign nations...not the guy living next door, not our coworker, not some individual subject to the laws of a specific nation who has the right to enforce such laws on their citizens. The World Nation doesn't exist yet...even if it did, its existance (short of Christ ruling) is a bastardization and subject to my ability to revolt. Final thought: Neither Abraham nor Lot passed judgement upon Sodom and Gommorah. [This message has been edited by NetCog (edited September 01, 2006).] [This message has been edited by NetCog (edited September 01, 2006).] |
Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
quote: So does this mean that you don't think the Old Testament is Inspired? Or that it shouldn't be read as scripture? ------------------ |
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The show 20/20 in on now. they talk about how American students do worse than many countries despite so much money it gets. When people do not know well they get easily manipulated. net Brandon ------------------ |
steveth45 Member Posts: 536 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-10-2005 |
quote: "Eye for an Eye" does not come from the Old Testament. It comes from the code of Hammurabi. Hammurabi was a Babylonian king who ruled from 1792-1750BC. ------------------ |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
quote: Actually it is (also) found in Exodus chapter 21, specifically verse 24. And the passage Warsong is referring to with Jesus' comments are Matthew 5:38-39 For anyone who wants a potential place to start in looking into the Eye for an Eye issue
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steveth45 Member Posts: 536 From: Eugene, OR, USA Registered: 08-10-2005 |
You're right, my bad. I studied the Code of Hammurabi in a history class I took several years ago. I didn't realize it was in both. ------------------ |