Do you think it is sin-waste of time-okay-fine-terrible? Quotes from the Bible would be welcome.

I'm struggling with whether games like these are okay, since I know the violent-bad ones like GTA, DukeNukem, and those are not.(Plus I play all the games mentioned above and more)

Lazarus

now, it isn't a very good use of time, but it's relaxing. any game that consumes your life would be bad for you, but it's not the game itself, but rather your lack of self-control.

------------------
"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

My heart goes out to you -- I feel I understand what you're wrestling with. We talked about this sort of thing a fair bit over in the thread I am bored of games, why aren't you?.

When the Bible speaks on entertainment (and other topics), it's often presented in a juxtaposed light -- where it says "Don't go too far in this direction" and "Don't go too far in the other direction", and so we are left to find a happy medium as best we can according to the rules laid out in Scripture.

Here are some verses you may find encouraging:

quote:

---

Ecclesiastes 11:9-10
Sow your seed in the morning and do not be idle in the evening, for you do not know whether morning or evening sowing will succeed, or whether both of them alike will be good.

The light is pleasant, and it is good for the eyes to see the sun.

Indeed, if a man should live many years, let him rejoice in them all, and let him remember the days of darkness, for they will be many. Everything that is to come will be futility.

Rejoice, young man, during your childhood, and let your heart be pleasant during the days of young manhood. And follow the impulses of your heart and the desires of your eyes Yet know that God will bring you to judgment for all these things.

So, remove grief and anger from your heart and put away pain from your body, because childhood and the prime of life are fleeting.

---

quote:

---

Proverbs 24:13-14
My son, eat honey, for it is good, Yes, the honey from the comb is sweet to your taste;
Know {that} wisdom is thus for your soul; If you find {it,} then there will be a future, And your hope will not be cut off.

---

quote:

---

Proverbs 25:16
Have you found honey? Eat {only} what you need, That you not have it in excess and vomit it.

---

quote:

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Proverbs 25:27
It is not good to eat much honey, Nor is it glory to search out one's own glory.

---

I hope that helps!

In Christ,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited July 25, 2006).]

Lazarus

In Christ,
Jari.

------------------
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

As you see everything to moderation should be taken to moderation since u can not say it’s ok to watch porno or murder in moderation. As a historian said modern day people are just as barbaric as the roman Gladiator days since people are just as violent and want to see violent. Many people say they are civilized but barbarians 2000 years ago were more civil than many people in the civilized world.

So let’s not compare ourselves to what others do in the present day but in logical terms. Would Christ waste his time? Are we bettering ourselves? Well obviously we need more time to better ourselves but the question is when? The more we delay the more our soul gets deteriorated.

Well one good person to ask is a priest. Well that’s my opinion.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

On a different note(Maybe this should go in a different topic but oh well),
Violence itself.
There's violence in this world like
Boxing-Wrestling-Martial Arts
Also on TV, and other forms of violent fighting and things like that.
Are they OK? Take the TV show Walker Texas Ranger(or any of those types).
It is full of violence, gunfights and kicking(mmm ), and my Dad doesn't like that, and thinks it's wrong and evil.
And as Warsong said the Romans had a form of violence like that with the Gladiators.
Is it wrong to watch or participate in things like that? I've never found anything in the Bible against it.

Lazarus

quote:

---

Originally posted by warsong:

So let’s not compare ourselves to what others do in the present day but in logical terms. Would Christ waste his time? Are we bettering ourselves? Well obviously we need more time to better ourselves but the question is when? The more we delay the more our soul gets deteriorated.

Well one good person to ask is a priest. Well that’s my opinion.

---

Several question to think about:

Why did Jesus transformed water into wine? Everyone know's you get drunk when you drink wine. So why did he do it?

Why did he went to a wedding at all? I think you agree he wasn't there to marry the couple.

Why after being resurected He prepared a meal on the shore?(John 21:9-12) Didn't he had better things to do then cooking fish for his disciples?

Why did he wasted his time with this type of things?

[This message has been edited by fearless (edited July 26, 2006).]

I was praticaly (self-) raised on guns!

(I've looked over my life, And i counclude i proably watched too much starwars)

Guns guns guns, can't stop thinkin' bout them!

Scary.

I personally havn't played too many non-violent games, (is Mario considered violent?)

And im not a big Computer-game guy (consoles are my only game-playing area, my PC is soley for my games and flash animations, etc.)

so I doubt i have played ANY non-violent game, I've had Star wars games, (a lot of 'em) Starfox, mario party, SSB, SSBM, Halo 2, Battlefield II, etc.

Wow, im starting to scare myself here...

------------------
yeah, im a little crazy

Blessed are those who suffer for doing what is right.
The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.-Matthew 5:10

PM ME YOUR DESCRIPTION OF ME! ILL PUT IT HERE!

Here's all the comments!

P.S. I HATE 640x480!!!!!!

2)i would think that Jesus would be allowed to go to a wedding without being the one to join the couple. i just don't see what that has to do with anything.

3) If you got almost nothing from reading the gospels, then know that Jesus was humble; He was constantly serving others and healing others. for example, he washed the feet of others (people wore sandals so the feet were VERY dirty). Thats one of the messages he tried to convey; you should always be selfless and ready to serve others.

4) how do you know it was a waste of time? i guess if nothing else then it got us talking right here about it all.

on a separate note, i have a mad videogame addiction. i play a LOT of games, violent and non-violent, and actually i have about 80+ games for my ps2.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lazarus:

Is it wrong to watch or participate in things like that? I've never found anything in the Bible against it.

---

Well Bible is big book considering how much there is hidden in it. But here is one verse:

1 Samuel 17:28 KJV And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and the naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle.

So we see that watching violence is condemmend (at least by david's brother) in the Bible and those who dont see violence are called blessed, why do you think is that?

In Christ,
Jari.

------------------
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited July 27, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by fearless:

Several question to think about:

Why did Jesus transformed water into wine? Everyone know's you get drunk when you drink wine. So why did he do it?

---

Wine is not forbidden, it's not sin to drink but getting drunk - being dozed - is sin. Just a note.

------------------
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

quote:

---

Originally posted by jari:

1 Samuel 17:28 KJV And Eliab his eldest brother heard when he spake unto the men; and Eliab's anger was kindled against David, and he said, Why camest thou down hither? and with whom hast thou left those few sheep in the wilderness? I know thy pride, and [b]the naughtiness of thine heart; for thou art come down that thou mightest see the battle.

So we see that watching violence is condemmend (at least by david's brother) in the Bible and those who dont see violence are called blessed, why do you think is that?
[/B]

---

You are interpreting this verse out of context. David came to the battle to help and although Eliab, his older brother was jealous of his courage, David's heart was not wicked. In fact this is what David said as he faced off a few verses later against Goliath:

"You come against me with sword and spear and javelin, but I come against you in the name of the LORD Almighty, the God of the armies of Israel, whom you have defied. This day the LORD will hand you over to me, and I'll strike you down and cut off your head. Today I will give the carcasses of the Philistine army to the birds of the air and the beasts of the earth, and the whole world will know that there is a God in Israel. All those gathered here will know that it is not by sword or spear that the LORD saves; for the battle is the LORD's, and he will give all of you into our hands."

David's heart was both hungry for battle, and the Lord was with him. He struck down Goliath with a single stone, killed him, and cut off his head with his own sword. This struck fear into the hearts of the Philistines and they all ran away. David was not yet king, but God had already given him the leadership and courage to turn a battle in Israel's favor. David's brother spoke out of jealousy and pride, there is no reason to say that because of this the Bible condemns watching violence.

------------------
+---------+
|steveth45|
+---------+

quote:

---

Originally posted by warsong:
So let’s not compare ourselves to what others do in the present day but in logical terms. Would Christ waste his time? Are we bettering ourselves? Well obviously we need more time to better ourselves but the question is when? The more we delay the more our soul gets deteriorated.

---

This is the sentiment that I was trying to speak against in my first post. The whole idea in modern Christian culture of feeling a need to be utilitarian in all of our actions without taking time to enjoy it.

Of course we aren't supposed to be lazy, and of course we should be Heaven-minded. But that can be taken too far -- to the point that we don't enjoy the good gifts that God has given us down here. I tried to give a small handful of some verses that teach proper enjoyment of God's gifts - there are more. I pasted a small section from Ecclesiastes, but the rest of the book is a very worthwhile read on the subject as well. If you haven't ever read through it, I do encourage you to do so. It can be depressing at points, but it may help to give a balanced perspective on life.

Jari: A better verse that the Bible uses to speak against violence might be the one that explains the reason why God brought the Genesis flood:

quote:

---

Genesis 6:11 (NASB)
Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence.

---

Simple verse, but important regarding God's view of violence.

Violence in the Bible is often permitted, and even necessary -- but it always brings sorrow. Glorified violence (such as excessive gore and shock-value killing) seems to be pretty un-Biblical, but (and some would disagree with this) I still think that it's Biblical to have competition, even to the point of having violence in games/training/entertainment (such as paintballing, football, wrestling, marksmanship) -- but the point is not the violence -- the point is the strategy, the skill, the physical fitness, the teamwork, and the fun.

This is all still very nebulous in my mind, so I'm continuing to study scripture and learn.

Cheers!

In Christ,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited July 27, 2006).]

@Lazarus -- You asked for quotes from the Bible. Here is a word search throughout the Bible of the words "violence, violent, fight, war," and other similar words. You can do your own search using eSword (freeware) or something similar.

To every thing there is a season... a time of war, and a time of peace. (Ecc 3:1,8)
... though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: (2Cor 10:3)
Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good. (Ecc 9:18)
... whence come wars?... come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? (Jam 4:1)
... I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind...O wretched man that I am! (Rom 7:23,24)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Eph 6:12)
Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. (Luk 10:19)
And take the...sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: (Eph 6:17)
Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. (Eph 6:16)
And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. (Luk 10:17)
...the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me... (Dan 10:13)
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour... (1Pet 5:8)
...Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ... (2Cor 10:5)
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword...a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (Heb 4:12)
Behold, [the wicked] belch out with their mouth: swords are in their lips: for who, say they, doth hear?(Psa 59:7)
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. (Luk 2:35)
Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head. (Rom 12:20)
...in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven. (Rev 11:13)
...For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds... (2Cor 10:4)
But thou, O LORD, art a shield for me; my glory, and the lifter up of mine head. (Psa 3:3)
...I cast out devils by the Spirit of God...Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house...except he first bind the strong man?... (Mat 12:28,29)
Fight the good fight of faith...(1Tim 6:12)
That the trial of your faith...though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ... (1Pet 1:7)
...tribulation worketh patience... (Rom 5:3,4)
Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. (Pro 16:18)

@fearless -- Nobody answered your questions! Jesus transformed the water into wine because in those days, wedding guests could take the bride's father to court and sue him if he ran out of wine at the wedding. Jesus performed the miracle (at the prodding of his mother) as a sign of compassion.

You're right. Jesus did not go to the wedding to marry them. He had not even begun his ministry yet. It's the first recorded miracle that Jesus performed.

Our food is very important to God. In Genesis, God created us to eat. In Exodus, he rained down bread from Heaven. Jesus calls himself the Bread of Life. He said to partake of communion (bread) in remembrance of him. God cares about big things and little things. One thing God will not spend time on is faithlessness.

quote:

---

Originally posted by JeTSpice:
@Jari & Steveth45 -- Your lines of thought are trains missing in the night! I think you guys are saying the same thing: To go to a battle to watch people die is wrong. To be sent into battle by the Lord is right. That's what you both are saying, right? Jari, that's a great scripture!

---

That's what I was saying, thanks for helping to correct.

------------------
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

EDIT: well, i guess i "responded" not answered

[This message has been edited by jestermax (edited July 27, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by HanClinto:
but the point is not the violence -- the point is the strategy, the skill, the physical fitness, the teamwork, and the fun.

---

Good to hear because it's not the same with sticks and stones to every one but some people openly demand core violence (blood shedding). You can find in some games from the net that may or may not have good game play (I wouldnt know) but their focus is on the bloodshedding. Just making a note how different desires some people have from games and people do have different desires from same games of course. Keep that in mind too you all...

------------------
2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

quote:

---

Originally posted by jari:
Good to hear because it's not the same with sticks and stones to every one but some people openly demand core violence (blood shedding). You can find in some games from the net that may or may not have good game play (I wouldnt know) but their focus is on the bloodshedding.

---

I'm glad that we agree this far, Jari.

I think I'm even okay with bloodshed in my entertainment (such as books, movies and games) -- but I would like it to be treated properly, and (as you say) not have the focus on it. War is horrible, and stories (whether book, movie or game) that deal with the horror of it accurrately (rather than elevating or celebrating the violence) is something that I think I could be okay with as well.

So I'm not totally against bloodshed in games, but I agree with you, Jari -- I would have a harder time finding Biblical justifaction entertainment that is gore-focused.

This brings into question the horror-genre, but perhaps that's a discussion for another time.

--clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited July 27, 2006).]

sorry, had to say it. =(

------------------
yeah, im a little crazy

Blessed are those who suffer for doing what is right.
The kingdom of heaven belongs to them.-Matthew 5:10

PM ME YOUR DESCRIPTION OF ME! ILL PUT IT HERE!

Here's all the comments!

P.S. I HATE 640x480!!!!!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by jestermax:
@fearless: for one thing, why does that actually matter? is the Christian faith solely based on those 4 items? (its not just in case ). i'm not an authority here but heres a few things to throw back.
1)Wine isn't evil; its actually good for our bodies in moderate amounts. wine was (and is in some places) used at every meal and for every occation. Go to some places in europe and you'll see that this is still true.

2)i would think that Jesus would be allowed to go to a wedding without being the one to join the couple. i just don't see what that has to do with anything.

3) If you got almost nothing from reading the gospels, then know that Jesus was humble; He was constantly serving others and healing others. for example, he washed the feet of others (people wore sandals so the feet were VERY dirty). Thats one of the messages he tried to convey; you should always be selfless and ready to serve others.

4) how do you know it was a waste of time? i guess if nothing else then it got us talking right here about it all.

on a separate note, i have a mad videogame addiction. i play a LOT of games, violent and non-violent, and actually i have about 80+ games for my ps2.

---

You've missed my point.
What I was trying to suggest is that it's ok from God's perspective to enjoy what life on earth has to offer (food and drinks, marriage, etc) as long as you keep in mind that one day all your life be scrutinized by Him.
HanClinto put it way better that I.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jari:
Wine is not forbidden, it's not sin to drink but getting drunk - being dozed - is sin. Just a note.

---

Exactly. It was intended as a rhetoric question. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

[This message has been edited by jestermax (edited July 27, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by JeTSpice:
In Genesis, God created us to eat.

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I disagree. I don't think God wants to eat us.

quote:

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Originally posted by coolj:
I disagree. I don't think God wants to eat us.

---

Maybe it's just that I read this after clocking out at work at 10:15 PM, but I found this comment really funny and I had a good laugh from it. Thanks for the smile, coolj.

Twisted people like twisted things. No wonder why most people are just as barbaric as 2000 years ago and worse.

It is ok to take "joy" in things but not "pleasure". When someone over indulges the simple things seem meaningless and they keep wanting more extreme things to be happy which is usually twisted.

I think people should take a step back and ask them selves how they benefit from doing what they do and try to keep away from once in a while from certain things like TV, Video games, junk food, etc. and see how it affects you. Some will understand and appreciate the simple thing and take more joy form what they do and some might quit all together.

For example the Orthodox Church has times when people fast from all meats, dairy, and oils for 40 days before Easter and other weeks in the year and certain says and many feel better since they eat healthy and flush out all toxics out and it’s a realization if what they do year round it not right. People appreciate the food more, are healthier, and don’t waste so much money on all the junk foods, and some appreciate it more and try to great better all year round. Other religions believe in fasting as well but most do it wrong which can hurt them or doesn’t have a meaning to it.

Everything is addicting even a state of mind. It depends on what kind of state of mind you want to be addicted to.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

It reminds me of a teaching I once heard. Think of your life each week as a train with 168 cars, each car being an hour of your week. Take some time to consider the value of the things you place in each car each week. Are there cars carrying cargo that hurts your overall "profit", are there cars that are filled with things that aren't nessecessarily bad or hurting you, but could be filled with something that could benefit you much more than the thing that fills it presently? Take some time and evaluate the values of your actions, how are you spending your time and hence your life, and is there a better way that you could be spending it?

------------------

Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.
C. S. Lewis

www.christiangaming.com

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited July 28, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited July 28, 2006).]

I really do agree with you, and everything that you're saying is dead-on right. Fasting from various things (such as food or video games or television) is extremely valuable, and I've benefited from it a number of times.

I also agree with how you've said that the good and acceptable things can become the enemy of the best things -- I totally agree. The only thing wrong with good books is that they get in the way of the great books -- the same thing is true of our activities.

Maybe you've never run up against this, but I went to a Christian college where a lot of the students were really into a movement known as the "Holiness Movement" -- also known as "Christian Perfectionism" -- basically it argues that because the Bible commands us to be perfect, that we can be perfect, and ought to be perfect -- that we shouldn't sin anymore, and that we should always be doing the best things and to do anything less is sin. Even further than this, they say that if you do sin, then you're not a Christian, so if you want to remain a Christian, then you must lead a perfectly sinless life. It all sounds really good -- but one of the troubles of Christian Perfectionism is that it's not a very joyous life. It's really hard to live that way, and it's not really resting in the presence of the Lord.

And then if you extend this idea too far, then you start getting into ideas where missions work is really the only viable career path, that to want a girlfriend/wife/boyfriend/husband is sin because it gets in the way of the best things that God can have for you, and that if you're not a single missionary like the Apostle Paul then you're settling for second-best (which essentially is sin).

This can even be extended further, where people argue that sex for anything other than procreation is sin, and that we shouldn't even take enjoyment in sex within marriage because it feeds the lust of the flesh and so we should abstain from it as much as possible (iirc, this is what the Shakers believed, and they died out for obvious reasons -- though I don't know how they seem to have ignored Proverbs 5:18 so thoroughly).

So all this to say, yes I agree with you, but from my experiences in Christian pop-culture, I just want to make sure that people understand that there is plenty of scriptural support for the enjoyment of life. Remember that every good and perfect gift is from above.

I know that life is hard, that we will face troubles and persecutions, etc -- but God does give us good gifts from time to time, and it's not bad to enjoy them. Regarding the whole sex issue -- have you read Song of Solomon lately? It's a sex-filled love poem. If any book speaks about the "pleasures" of life, there's one for you right there. (not speaking to you directly Ereon -- just speaking to the abstract literary "you" referring to the reader)

quote:

---

Originally posted by warsong:
When someone over indulges the simple things seem meaningless and they keep wanting more extreme things to be happy which is usually twisted.

---

quote:

---

He who loves pleasure will become a poor man; He who loves wine and oil will not become rich.

---

But that's talking about addiction -- that's not referring to "anyone who partakes of pleasure". I think you have drawn too hard a point when you said "It is ok to take 'joy' in things but not 'pleasure'" -- I don't think a statement that sharp is scriptural (though if you have verses that you draw that conclusion from, by all means share them).

I don't want anyone on here to think that I'm some sort of pagan hedonist -- I really do think that everything that Ereon said is great advice and that we should practice that in our lives. I just want to make sure that we don't feel pressured to take it to far -- that we know that God did make pleasure on this earth for us to enjoy (such as sex within marriage), but ultimately that we should not live for pleasure, rather we should live for God, and that, as Fearless said, know that everything will be brought under God's judgement and we will be held accountable for our actions.

quote:

---

Ecclesiastes 11:9
Rejoice, young man, during your childhood, and let your heart be pleasant during the days of young manhood. And follow the impulses of your heart and the desires of your eyes Yet know that God will bring you to judgment for all these things

---

Please correct me where I'm wrong, please point me to scriptures that I'm not taking into account, and feel free to disagree with me as I am not perfect. I'm still learning all of this stuff, this is just a little bit of where God's brought me as I wrestle with this issue myself.

In Christ,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited July 29, 2006).]

It's like you said Han, it's all about resting in the presence of God, it's His presence that makes us holy, it's His presence that takes our ragged, dirty manmade righteousness and molds it into something lovely and beautiful to His sight. I'm all about seeking the blessings and enjoying life, but I burn first for the Blesser, and it's that hunger and His beautiful presence that gives me the strength and desire to live a life seeking His best, not through man's joyless trudging, but through His awesome, overpowering, and awe filled grace, by which we can seek Him first, find His face, and touch the very source of true joy and complete, abundant blessings.

Sorry, just had to vent that, anyhoo, thanks for helping clear up what I was saying Han, you rock.

------------------

Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.
C. S. Lewis

www.christiangaming.com

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited July 29, 2006).]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ereon:
First of all though I'd like to let you know that I'm not into "perfectionism" or anything like that, my desire is to have God's best things, which include very many of the things that make life most enjoyable, and are even sweeter when we take them the way He created them to be enjoyed (in which case you're take things that are "good" when we humans do them out way (but pale because they have sometimes horrible consequences) but then rise to the level of "best" when we do them God's way and hence dwell under his blessing).

---

Well put! I definitely agree.

BTW, have you ever read Desiring God, by John Piper? Basically he starts with the Westminster Shorter Catechism's statement that chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him for ever and then extends that to suggest that man's chief end is to glorify god by enjoying him forever. So therefore we are to seek the greatest enjoyment, which is found in God. He calls it "Christian Hedonism".

Interesting concept, it's a pretty good read, and a lot of what you wrote reminded me of his book.

I'm glad to hear that you haven't had to deal much with Christian Perfectionism -- it varies from place to place, but it can be really hard to deal with when your friends are all into it, as it sounds so scriptural but it just misses out on some of the enjoyment of the life that God has given us.

I hope that I can enjoy life -- that I can enjoy a swim in the evening, a walk in the afternoon, competing for a high score in Tetris with my wife, biting into a hamburger fresh off the grill, finishing a project or fixing a nasty bug, watching a Star Wars / Lord of the Rings marathon with friends in college, sleeping in on a Saturday, fragging friends in Unreal Tournament, baling hay with my uncle, doodling a geometric pattern, studying history, teaching doctrine, or singing in church. I hope that I can partake of the good things of life while bringing them all under the authority of Christ -- for as you say, you can only have the best things when they are God's things done God's way in God's time.

So I realize that I can become addicted to any of those pleasures that I listed above, and that to live for them (or to perform them in such a way as doesn't glorify God) is wrong -- and so sometimes I have to cut those good things out of my life completely by fasting from them either short term or long term (and this is the part where I really agree with what you and Warsong were talking about).

I don't think I'm quite enjoying life the way I hope to though, and so I'm still working out the livability/theological support for the ideal I listed above. Some "good things" in life are just too addictive for me and I have to avoid them completely because they can take over my life too easily -- we're still sinners and we just do whatever we want to in the moment as it's often not right.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ereon:
Sorry, just had to vent that, anyhoo, thanks for helping clear up what I was saying Han, you rock.

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hehe, it was a good vent. Thanks for the good discussion -- what I think rocks is that God has forgiven sinners like us and allowed any of His good to shine through us -- because it's not of ourselves. I hope that there has been some profit from this discussion, and that people have some good mental meat to chew on from it. I know it's been good for me.

Cheers!

In Christ,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited July 29, 2006).]

Philippians 4:8 KJV Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Amen.

Jari.

PS. sorry that I have not read the latests post yet but can hopefully do so soon.

[This message has been edited by jari (edited July 30, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by warsong:
When someone over indulges the simple things seem meaningless and they keep wanting more extreme things to be happy which is usually twisted.

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This is true and wort to ponder...

Proverbs 27:20 KJV Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

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penny --Is. 64

[This message has been edited by penny (edited August 24, 2006).]

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

Violence in games is alright, becuase you aren't hurting anything REAL, no-one gets hurt and it can be used as a way of relieving yourself of your sicker wants like murder, stealing and the like. Doing it excessively is obviously bad, the rule 'All things in moderation' is there for a reason, you cannot enjoy life, help yourself or others if you are obssessed with one hobby or another, if you're glued to your PC or PS2 or whatever, you will not doa anything worthwhile.

And I don't see why non-violent games could be bad, as you REALLY aren't hurting anything then

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http://tisfat.cjb.net
http://tisfat.awardspace.com

Anyhoo, just some thoughts out loud. Welcome to the boards Scott

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited September 13, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited September 13, 2006).]

Welcome to CCN! I'm very glad to see you here. Looking at your sig and given your interest in Tisfat, I checked the Tisfat forums and noticed that you (or someone *else* named Scott) heads up the bug reports board. I'm going to guess that Tisfat is your pet project (or at least one that you have a guiding hand in) -- very nice! I haven't used it yet -- only a little bit of Pivot (heresy, I know...) at the first animation contest -- but everything I've seen of what people have been talking about Tisfat makes it look really nice.

I have to run now, but I just wanted to type a quick "Welcome to CCN!". We like talking about religion and coding here, and I hope that you feel welcome.

Respectfully,
clint