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X-Men’s God complex – warsong




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I found a site that explains how movies like that are subliminal. Well think about it. The movie is about x-men being individuals even if it bothers others. If a mutant has the ability to blow up the world then it’s ok if they can deal with it and not others. A hero takes care of others and not themselves. Don’t know why people view celebrities like sports players, actors, singer, etc like heroes when they do more damage than good, and they do what they do for themselves.

The movie seems to embrace many liberal views which is not imposed directly but indirectly to set the foundation of how people should think like evolution, homosexuality, god complexes, selfishness; mutations have no side affects, etc. Well Hollywood is liberal and is puts in their views to impose it on others. Kind of like broke back mountain we are the bad guys that they 2 men can express their homosexual feeling for each other. It doesn’t take into account both sides of the issue and proclaims they are the good guys with fancy special affect, action, and hype.

http://www.sydneyanglicans.net/culture/watching/x_men_3_the_last_stand/
"On the one side we have a society that looks down on mutants as an aberration to be corrected, failing to understand why anyone wouldn’t want to embrace an opportunity to be like everyone else. On the other, we have staggeringly interesting individuals who stand out from the norm and refuse to surrender what they have been from birth, just to make others feel safer."

""They can’t cure us,” rages Storm. “Because there is nothing wrong with us!"
"The enemy in this film is clearly not the ‘cure’ that threatens to erase mutations, but the suggestion that individuality has to be suppressed for the sake of society as a whole. A failure to accept a person’s right to define themselves is neatly married with the sort of tyranny that produced the Holocaust, without any hint of exaggeration. “In every age,” says Storm, “there are those who fight against intolerance.” And intolerance in this case is not allowing her to control the weather when she wants to." lol

"And that is where the rub of the film lies. There is a brief acknowledgement that individual expression must be limited to the non-destructive, but that is primarily for the good of the individual themselves, not those who have to co-exist with them. However individuality that admits no limits other than its own benefit results in a greater tyranny than any fascist state could offer. Now, to be fair, the good guys are all for control for the sake of others, but I don’t think that’s where X Men 3 is really going. It is one of the enduring contradictions of modern society that we maintain that it is possible for everyone to have what they want, and no-one need suffer. But the essence of Biblical thinking is to realize that when ‘every man does as he sees fit’ the result is chaos, not harmony. It’s an old Sunday school illustration, but the essence of ‘sin’ is putting ‘I’ at the centre. When will we meet a group of super-heroes who believe that heroism actually means living for others? I am forcefully reminded of that greatest of champion’s who “… was in the form of God; yet laid no claim to equality with God, but made himself nothing … and was obedient, even to the point of death on a cross.” (Philippians 2:6-8)."

It is interesting to see how to justify an argument they twist it around to a different view to appeal to many and alter their thinking over time. But anyway if you are still interesting well look at the overall reviews of the movie which doesn’t seem to be good. http://www.metacritic.com/film/titles/xmenthelaststand

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)
"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodox Info

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited May 29, 2006).]

ArchAngel

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I actually found the movie to be non-humanist.

X-men supported putting aside one's personal desires for the greater good, and Magneto propagates meeting your potential and following your own desires, and your own version of "good." Magneto is always talking about "being who you are supposed to be" while Xavier teaches using the powers for good.
Xavier is constantly teaching restraintment of power, and even limiting it himself, when necessary.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
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CheeseStorm
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quote:
“In every age,” says Storm, “there are those who fight against intolerance.” And intolerance in this case is not allowing her to control the weather when she wants to." lol

Hey, she uses her powers to help humans and mutants, not for personal gain.
The evil mutants think they're better than regular humans.
The normal humans are scared of differences so they want to make everyone the same.

"Rargh!" - The Beast

Lava
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Doesn't everyone know that Hollywood is nothing but just a stomping ground for Liberal propaganda?

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luke

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I find that most movies, politics and beliefs aside are OK as far as plot goes. But when I start noticing those little things it pushes like Gay is OK etc... then well you know. But I don't see what all the controversy about the Da Vinci Code is, I mean it is a work of fiction not a High School text book.

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ArchAngel

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Dan Brown does stand by the stuff he writes in it, tho.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

Lava
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(edit)

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited May 30, 2006).]

CapnStank

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Let's all have a nice reminder that Fiction is Fiction. Don't go reading too much stuff into it or you'll get angry and whatnot. Movies are made for entertainment, when you take them too seriously that aspect of them disappears. Just don't think about it too much. I can't see a Gay rights or Evolutionist movement quoting X-Men as a good source for arguement. It won't fuel any debate and, like I said, its just for entertainment.

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

ArchAngel

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however, entertainment and art many times is used by their creators to form a point, to bring about a message, or to ask a question. and if not that, it could be used by the viewers to extrapolate and illustrate their own concepts. looking into these things for deeper meanings can be quite beneficial.


*sigh* now looking what college did to me...

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

bennythebear

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don't we have better things to do than debate over the meaning of movie? first there's the whole trying-to-get-the-lost-saved thing, then there's people starving, homeless... real tyranny and oppression going on. i'm not saying i focus on this all the time and i'm out there giving everything, but why is it people always focus on on vain topics?

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

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CheeseStorm
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Benny for the win.
Ereon

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Lol, I second Cheese on the Benny vote.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

buddboy

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i... third it? lol... but, i have to mention... what about Kurt Wagner, the Nightcrawler, from the second movie? there's a scene where Storm is angry, and he says 'someone so beautiful should not be so angry..' and she says that anger can sometimes save your life, and he says 'so can faith.'.. he's constantly praying during the movie, and he says something about having 'one for every sin, so quite a few', but i don't remember what he was talking about. plus, what archangel said.

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

CapnStank

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So if we're not arguing about a movie we're posting in a 28 page topic regarding how someone hasn't experienced puberty yet. I admit it is a vain topic but this isn't the exactly the most active forum out there.

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

Ereon

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The result of that, in my opinion, is that we have comparatively few people here focusing solely on game design or other forms of development. Many of the people here have more interest in discussing the subjects that discuss.....if that makes sense.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

buddboy

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yay ereon... now can you explain the second to last sentence just a little more? i think you left out a word or something...

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

Simon_Templar

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I'm not a comic guru by any stretch, but its pretty obvious and pretty basic that the primary theme of all Stan Lee/marvel comics is "with great power/ability comes great responsability". In every one of his comics the hero is a person who realizes this and struggles with the implications of devoting themselves to the responsability they have been given, and trying to reconcile that with the desire to be a normal human being, and have a life of their own.

In pretty much every case the villians are those who are given great power and use it for personal ends (even sometimes understandable personal ends).

In the movie X-Men last stand (which was by far the worst of the trilogy in my opinion), the point of the movie deals directly with the basic question of any free society.. what is the balance between self control and freedom.
The issue is magnified with the mutants because their abilities are magnified, thus they can do greater good, but also much greater evil. If the mutants can control themselves, then society doesn't have to control them, and they can be free. This is what Dr. Charles Xavior recognizes, and why he strives to promote self control, and awareness of responsability among the mutants. Its the whole point of the Xavior's school for the gifted.

Magnito, on the other hand believes that self control is just a straight jacket that others are trying to force upon them. His view leads to chaos, and warfare.

The movie highlights the necessity of moral restraint and self control to maintaining a free and peaceful society.

Tangentially you could also argue that the movie deals with the question of wether or not freedom can exist in a highly technological society. In the movie the question is posed regarding mutants who can read minds, and other amazing talents, can normal people be free if those kinds of things exist? But we face the same question in regards to the growing ability of government to monitor and control every aspect of our lives. In a world where government must maintain vast networks to monitor telecommunications of every kind, to spy on their enemies, to protect themselves, etc how can we be sure those things won't be turned on us.. and can we truly maintain freedom under such circumstances.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.




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I disagree LOL
Obviously some people fall in the ˝ truth traps. It’s not about the good side they show but the one side that they show which is not better than the other side which sways people’s outlook on things. I don’t know the full plot of the movie and will wait until it comes on TV, so I will just try to give people some challenging questions to think about. Lol People ignore the main concept of metaphors. Read my reply to the other as well since everyone seems to cross ideas and pat eacho0ther on the back so soon.

Arch
Magneto in what you said is not a good thing but bad in that it tells people to accept the bad. Kind of like for people go with their desires and to be who they are, but does not mention about bettering themselves and that desires are not always right. Even the guy who plays magneto is gay, and if we look at it in another context it says that a gay persons desires and who they are is good, or a fornicator, gambler, etc. We are not looking at it as a whole to see which side outweighs the other. As for your other comments I replied to the others about it.

Cheese
You missed the rest of the points in the article which explain why. Read the megaphone in what I said to Benny.

Lava
Obviously most don’t. Even the guy Kurt Cameron that played in growing pains when he became a Christian someone told him he mad the wrong decision to be a Christian if he wanted to do well in Hollywood. When he was an immoral atheist then everyone paid more attention to him.

Luke
There is always a agenda and it is covered in sheep’s clothing. The devil doesn’t say he is the devil and tries to say do bad things, the devil would more likely say he is not and that he is out to make you happy and entertain you. Also the thing with the Da Vinci Code is that many people find it to be fact than fiction, and 30% of people in Canada believe what that book says.

Capnstank
Entertainment is mixed with ˝ truths. Propaganda is not only in the political spectrum. Obviously movies are fiction but they know a big % get influenced directly like the Da Vinci code, of indirectly to change how people think like X-men which doesn’t talk about Gay issues but the concept of individuality which carries on to other issues. In other words twisted metaphors with ˝ truths are used a lot to make people use to that mindset. The bible is full of metaphors for people to understand. Remember entertainment was originally for people to learn and liberals that sell you this know this and use it but are presented that it means nothing, and that is one of the best ways to affect people which many ignore.

Benny
A lie is just as bad as or worse than the things you mentioned since it makes more problems. You ignore many sins that bring on more sins so that you can look at less in. Since you ignore metaphors here is one to help you understand, it is like you only are worried about getting the water out of your basement only, instead of also dealing with the source of the problem of where the water came from to prevent more flooding. I hope that help you.

Budboy
Night crawler was too Christian for the movie which the 3rd film contradicts with Christianity in its views, but the action seems good which is what I said before about hoe they persuade people by drawing them in with action. The part about every sin was that he scared himself for every sin he did but that is again against the religion to do self mutilation.

Ereon
How can someone talk about game design when so many are off in what is Christian. I agree with what you means but I think it would take everyone collectively to talk about a Christian game design since many would disagree with some acts of certain Christian themes. This article I think is good for people to understand how entertainment influenced people in a bad way in a conscious and subconscious level with ˝ truths and twisted metaphors to persuade.

Simon
We also have to see when the x-men comic book was made at a time of many liberal movements. Comic support many liberal views towards young kids. Sure they put ˝ truths like what you said about power = responsibility but mix it with other non Christian things like vengeance, anger, violence, your fists do the talking, etc. It would be good to have a Christian comic which go against those things that are just as popular, but they splendor kids with action. There are these comics online from the site http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp which is better that popular comic in my opinion, but to kids it might not apply so much or sell so well. Kids can name over 24 x-men but can not name the 12 apostles and some don’t know who Christ is as shown in that movie Super Size me. Sometimes I see more Christian values in comics in Japan with Mangas/anime like Trigun where the hero can kill anyone easily but would rather let himself be shot since he quotes the bible to say “thou shall not kill” which he also reminds a priest that carries a machine gun shaped as a cross to not kill. I am not saying their comics are better since they have a lot of anti Christian things as well.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

Lava
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You know, I was almost insulted when I didn't see my name on the list at first, lol.

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:

Lava
Obviously most don’t. Even the guy Kurt Cameron that played in growing pains when he became a Christian someone told him he mad the wrong decision to be a Christian if he wanted to do well in Hollywood. When he was an immoral atheist then everyone paid more attention to him.


lol.....

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited June 02, 2006).]

ArchAngel

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ahh, in Trigun, the priest repents of what he done.
Trigun was a pretty good series, I will say.
I did, after all, buy a model of the Priest (Wolfwood) with his cross gun.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

Simon_Templar

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Registered: 10-25-2004
I always find it funny in a slightly annoying way when christians complain about the fact that movies, tv shows, or books, portray good characters as having flaws.

This is one of the primary reasons that "christian" entertainment forms often are of lower quality. They have characters that aren't really human. People, even good people, have problems and flaws. It is the struggle with those flaws, and imperfections that make us able to identify with characters. This is one of the primary reasons that Christian entertainment comes across as preachy and unreal. They can't present normal human flaws without making them a big sermon, if they can present them at all.

Furthermore, when christians condemn 'secular' entertainment for having flawed characters it just comes across like grasping at straws, looking for any reason possible to demonize something they don't like.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

CapnStank

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From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Yes entertainment does contain attempts at metaphors, and 1/2 truthes but I really don't let them effect me as most people do. Understanding and recognising the things within them is half the battle. I live my life by my own choices and morals (yes athiets do have morals, we've been through this) not by what a trendy movie will tell me.

When entertainment controls society is when there's problems. Being smart enough to make your own decisions not what someone else tells you is the better thing to do in my opinion.

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

That_Guy

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From: TN,USA
Registered: 02-26-2005
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:

Arch
Magneto in what you said is not a good thing but bad in that it tells people to accept the bad. Kind of like for people go with their desires and to be who they are, but does not mention about bettering themselves and that desires are not always right. Even the guy who plays magneto is gay, and if we look at it in another context it says that a gay persons desires and who they are is good, or a fornicator, gambler, etc. We are not looking at it as a whole to see which side outweighs the other. As for your other comments I replied to the others about it.


Magneto is the bad guy.

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We should use crosses, not stars for are mempership level representation.

CheeseStorm
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Uh-oh, Warsong, that actor also played Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings; perhaps Sauron was in fact Jesus Christ after his public image was twisted by the mass media's dark hold on the Free Peoples of Middle Earth...

Oh, just kidzorz. Then again, he was in the Da Vinci Code, fighting against the Church's cover-up. You may be on to something this time! ^_^

*edits ze typos*

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited June 04, 2006).]

Max

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It was a movie... Things blowing up, and cool powers, I personally never thought about any underlying stuff till I read this article.

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

Lava
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quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
I disagree LOL


Would we expect anything less? lol jp

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited June 04, 2006).]




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People vote with their wallets and when they go pay for movies that have people that attack you then they will use the money to support liberal view and persuade more people in their views. Hence the increase in many liberal programs while the family is being destroyed. Keep on giving money to BS and we will get more BS to eat.

Maybe I should make a new topic about it but since we are talking about movies and so many get distracted with special FX then they will miss the big picture. just like a magic trick to look at the one hand distracts you and the other does its thing to trick you. Kind of like trick or treat every day of the year, we get tricked and they get the treats and people love getting tricked again and again.

Archangel
It was an ok show, but a kind of distortion of Christianity to be overly pacifistic like Gandhi which he put many of his people to be slaughtered. Which I will comment about him to capnstank. lol

Simon
Yep. They try to make us look bad intentionally. Hollywood doesn’t just have a lot of non Christians but anti-Christians from top to bottom. You have to admit that, also that when they make movies like the last temptation of Christ which is just as bad as the movie Da Vinci code but people are more affected by society so they don’t complain as much.

Cap
Everyone gets affected if you looked at the other post about marking. You live your life by what you have been trained to do in the knowledge you lack. The word moral is a wide definition for many and everyone thinks they have it. It’s the people that are humble that try to better themselves more.
“Literature and film, as all art, do not merely entertain. It is in their nature to convey the principles and values of their creators and so they instruct in subtle or not-so-subtle ways. Much has been written and said about Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code. Potential viewers, as they evaluate the film for themselves, ought to be mindful of the whopping historical falsehoods on which the book is based.”
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article9576.asp

Your quote also shows how you are affected when “no Christian can be a murderer (1 John 3:15)“ Mahatma Gandhi didn’t get it. He put his people to get slaughtered every day. He is no better than anyone and his saying that you have is without thought. The Original Christian church Orthodoxy didn’t do anything bad to them. If anything they thank them for freeing them from the Persians with the help of King Alexander which influenced them and helped paved the road for Christianity. The other non Orthodox church did bad and unchristian things since they are not considered Christian by the Orthodox church. As my saying says “The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery” which many put their own cultural views in it to dilute the religion. So if it was not for non Christian actions like the catholic and protestant sects you would most likely be Christians, but you are not since naturally bad bring bad, and can not bring good. As for his comment about Christ well he said so many errors so that is just another error he made on his long list.

That guy
Yes but even the good guys were partially with him to give people a choice. If you go not to an airport, government building, etc, they will not let you carry a bomb, but when a mutant has the power to be more dangerous than a bomb then and they say its your choice then you see the real problem. Say its your choice and go into an airport with a blade like wolverine lol. The thing is not about choice but about what is right so both sides are off from Magneto to Xavier.

CheeseStorm lol
The actor Ian McKellen that played magneto says that the "Bible Should Have 'Fiction' Disclaimer" and not the movie Da Vinci code. I guess he loves to get it from men so much he will attack Christianity to get it that way.
http://newsbusters.org/node/5402?from=90&comments_per_page=90
You can read it on other sites but that was just one example.
The Da Vinci code should have a disclaimer since so many confuse fact from fiction.

Max
Yep that’s the point to not notice it. The is the best way to persuade people on issues which is scary.

Laval
Hmmm don’t know what to tell you. I guess Hello. lol

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

Lazarus

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@warsong
To me, it's just entertainment mostly. Even the news is entertainment, and usually has bad things in it too.
If you watch TV, you better be prepared for the effects it will have on you, good or bad.

Lazarus

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Lazarus

Max

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From: IA
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Warsong, I think you are thinking too much. People will never have mutant powers, therefor, all that stuff is pointless. Woohoo, Wolverine can't get on a plane, that's what his motorcycle is for. Anyhoo,My favorite character is Colossus, what about you guys?

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

Lava
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Cyclops, but then I have only seen the 1st one, and I plan to see the 2nd soon.

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CheeseStorm
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quote:
Posted by Max:
Anyhoo,My favorite character is Colossus, what about you guys?


Haha, I thought he was going to fight the Juggernaught at the end. (that would've been insanely cool)

Don't really have a favorite. Wolverine or Nightcrawler I guess.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited June 07, 2006).]

CapnStank

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Sliding away from topic, but about Gandhi... his people made a choice, and let's be obvious here, death was a decision for them. Gandhi was a spiritual leader who believed that by using violence you hurt yourself more than you do your victum. When you look closely at many violent events you see the evidence of that. His people followed him to their deaths believing it was the right thing to do, a self-sacrifice if you will. I'm sure you've heard this from me before, but allowing others to control your decisions isn't a good life, just being another sheep in the herd.

I'm hoping this can end here but like I've said we've been through the topic of morals and how religion apperently relates to them. I just don't think that you understand that someone who isn't Christian can be a good person as well. I've done more good for people in my life than some "Christians" that I know. I'll let you get your 2 cents in if you want, but don't go making it big topic here.

Back to topic. I believe that mutations such as those portrayed in Xmen are impossible but I believe what we can develope into as a species has potential far greater than we've seen. It's said that we only use 10% of our brains, and if we met with a person centries in the future who understand the mind, how to control it, etc. better than we do we may say that they have mutant abilities such as the Xmen's leader. (you know, the guy in the chair!)

Favorite? None. I'll be honest that I never was into comic books. If I had to pick a favorite comic character though I'd go along the lines of The Hulk.

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

Lazarus

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All the good in the world doesn't save you, CapnStank.
You can be Hitler or Gandhi, and if you repent of your sins you'll go to heaven.
You can be Mother Teresa or some really good person, and if you don't repent of your sins, you won't go to heaven; you'll go to the other place.

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

Lazarus

Ereon

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That claim of the 10% of our brains theory is a myth propogated by experiments preformed on rats. Scientists were able to extract roughly 90% of the rats brain by selectively removing certain areas that were non-essential to the rat's basic involuntary bodily function and have the rat survive. However, the rats in the experiement exhibited extremely hampered abilities and were not able to perform nearly as well as other rats in exercises such as solving a maze or similar things that required through or something other than involuntary actions such as breathing or the heart beating. So, there is no evidence to suggest that we use on 10% of our brains.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Lazarus, you should know that I'm not expecting to be saved. I've explained before that I don't believe in it. The point I was trying to make is that warsong generalizes athiests as cruel people because they follow a different pattern of beliefs. I'm just trying to explain to him that just because a person doesn't believe the same stuff he does it doesn't make them a evil or moralless person.

The whole part about repenting is retarded if you ask me. Go through life making everyone else's hell day in and day out, then have a revelation in the end and repent soulfully and somehow that makes you a good enough person to step through the pearly gates?

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
Colossus? who's he again? mine would probably be Wolverine or Nightcrawler, but they're all pretty cool... the whole Storm-prominence thing in the third movie was dumb... lol..


BTW, what's up with all your posts warsong? they always have weird characters in them... mebbe its your/my browser(s)...

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
Colossus turns out to be gay. lol.
in some demented way, I find that funny.


nightcrawler is one of my favs.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
who is colossus?! lol..

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/70/X3cast16.jpg

The 2nd one on the 2nd row, next to Angel.

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited June 08, 2006).]

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Colossus is the guy who can turn his skin to steel.

Capn - Short response to the whole repent thing. If you make people lives hell day in and day out, and then suddenly realize that you want to repent, it works if you mean it in your heart/soul. I'm not expecting to "turn" you Capn, and I highly respect your views, just trying to explain it. If you just say the words, it doesn't work, you have to mean it.

Hope that helped.

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
oh yah!! him... he was cool..

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WARNING:

RADIOACTIVE IE AHEAD!
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#include <spazz.h>

int name()
{
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CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
I understand the idea behind repenting, I just don't agree with it. Sure, your God may accept the soul-felt appology but what about the people that you harmed? Is there any assistance to them? Basically by this method if you go harrassing a non-christian day in, day out, then all of a sudden feel really bad and repent with all your heart and soul you get to heaven, but a person who just lived in a hell is still doomed to the abyss? I also realize that I won't 'turn' any of you, although my posts may come off as if I'm annoyed, confused, etc. I am just working to gather a better understanding of the other side of the arguement.

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Well, the fact is, if you've changed, and really wanted to repent, you would feel remorse for what you have done, and most likely God would lead you to apologize to the people you have harmed. I know it's hard to believe people can change, I am a massive cynic. I never give people the benefit of the doubt. If I see proof of it, or can just "tell" what they feel, then I believe it.

You're missing the main point to it, Most of Christianity is about being a better person, to be Christ-like.

Also, if someone just repents, means it, and never does anything like pray or use his talents, he is as good as dead. For the bible states that "Faith without works is death" and it works the other way to. You can do all the good deeds in the world, but you can't get to heaven with them.

Hope that helped Capn, send me a message with a messenger address and I can try to better explain it, I understand your point, and it is very valid. I wish I could understand what you are meaning better.

-Max

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

crazyishone

Member

Posts: 1685
From:
Registered: 08-25-2004
Actually max, i believe it goes "faith without works is dead".

I only point this out, because it kinda matters. Its saying that your faith is useless (dead), if you don't do your part. Its not saying that if you don't have faith and good works you will die. (on any level, physical death, eternal damnation, etc.)

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quit posting on CCN? nope. I havn't been driven off yet.

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
I think personally that part of being truly repentant is trying to make things right. If you wronged someone, and you truly are repentant, then you will go back and make things right.

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
I agree with Ereon. When Zaccheus repented, he returned fourfold what he'd stolen. The laws Moses gave the Israelites also say that if someone stole something, he'd have to give X number back.

Btw, nice signature. I don't know why, a lot of Christians I meet think C.S Lewis wasn't one, he was a bad person, he perverted the Gospel, etc. I guess they think the Narnia series was bad too I've read those books so many times...

Lazarus

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Thanks, C.S. Lewis is one of my favorite authors, I'm working on a small collection of quotes by him to put in my sig. This was my first addition.

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis




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capnstank
Gandhi was not that spiritual since he was confused to not know who which got to choose. When someone asked him if he is Hindu he said he is Hindu, Christian, Muslims, etc. He was an educated smart man but not that smart. No one is perfect and neither is he to send his people like sheep to the slaughter. He was not that “spiritual” since he didn’t explore that much to know that it’s an insult to say that there is many Gods and did thing for the future of his people than for the spirit, but that didn’t work out so well, also the saying like that it shows. He was to the far left and “anarchism” which was similar to the other one that is far off the Dalai Lama which he also has done more to hurt his country than help it.
So you can’t honestly believe the quote you have which I explained it before why it is off.

Some Christians are not good or real Christians and you can do good to be a better Christian than them even though you are not. Morals have their limit when people want to not pay attention to all the morals in the book. People like you and other Christians think they know more and do their own thing. Christianity is a map or a guide to how or what to do and without it is harder to find the right path. Christianity was influenced by the great philosophers of Ancient Greece as well if you look at many of the saying and the history of it as I posted in the religious forum. Even Buddha, Hinduism have been influenced by the same but fall short in many ways, which no matter what other views says Christianity has it already since they god it from the same source and Christianity had a better position since most of the apostles lived where the greatest intellects of all time were. Things with click if you explore more.

The problems with your other part that that not being a Christian is ok is still an insult in a way to God don’t you think? For example if someone like your parents, school, friends etc made you who you are, and you say you don’t think so and think they don’t exist then you are insulting them. If someone gave you a million dollars and all the want is gratitude and then you turn around and tell someone in front of the person that gave you the money that you don’t want to thank the guy that gave you the money and that you don’t want to thank him and never will, then what will happen? If you bite the hand the feeds you then will you get a reward?

Max said some ok stuff for you to understand a bit on other aspects. You talk about repentance being BS well again you believe in metaphors? Well if your kid steals from a person and he benefits a lot and your other kid didn’t then he is most likely not to get punished. But if your kid steals and benefits a lot but he repents and mean it and use what he benefited to give back what he stole with interests and never stole again and prevent others from doing the same, but your other kid didn’t steal and didn’t care to ever help others, then the one that stole would be a bigger man than the one that didn’t steal at all. Obviously it would be hard for someone to be so humble but that is just a small example of repentance I came up with. Which if you ask yourself which kid did a more positive thing and showed his colors of who they are so that you trust?

If liberal Hollywood praises someone then you know something is wrong. Since you know they use it to demonize and distort and praise people that are mostly unfit to be praised. Reminds me of a silly riddle how what if you die or go someplace and there is a person standing on a cross road and a sign that says there 2 people and one person is their at all times and one usually lies and the other person says the truth and you have to decide which road to take but you only ask 1 question to ask the person. The real problem is that no one says that they lie.

I honestly think you need to talk to an expert like a priest and if you never have then what are you afraid of that he will be right? That you will waste your time? That you love what you do and don’t want to admit that some things are bad since you are attached to it and that you will regret? It takes a bigger man to admit when they are wrong, and no need to tell us about it but go ask a priest which they used to be the original shrinks to advise people which had better results for 2000 years but now they have shrinks that don’t work so well and more people have problems.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
quote:
Posted by Warsong: Gandhi was not that spiritual since he was confused to not know who which got to choose. When someone asked him if he is Hindu he said he is Hindu, Christian, Muslims, etc. He was an educated smart man but not that smart.

Well, he said he was from all those different religions because "Gandhi believed that at the core of every religion was Truth and Love." (Wikipedia). I disagree with a lot of Gandhi's ideas but I just wanted to clear that up. As for the Dalai Lama: "My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness." Nuff said ^_^



Posts:
From:
Registered:
I see capnstank didn't reply.

Hollywood’s movie association is rating a Christian movie pg13 to categories it up with other movies that have violence sex profanity etc. Like I said they don’t want to encourage logical Christian values, and when they do they distort them. What else do you expect when the vast majority or people in the “writers gild” are fanatical anti-Christians that push for secular views? Sure they make semi Christian movies but they are just wolfs in sheep’s clothing, just like the majority of actors that portray themselves as conservatives but are liberal.

Cheese
As for what you said that "My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness." Even Hitler wanted to help his people and look what happen. I think the bible said that even the devil is kid to his own son. Everyone wants to do good and no one comes out saying they are the bad guy or evil, but most falls short and do the wrong things. If you are kind to what is wrong then you are automatically unkind of what is right, and the problem is that things are not so obvious since people get persuaded to do the wrong thing or place their wants over their needs.

Even Ereaon in the other post thinks its kind not to kill and defend ones self at all even if someone crazy is trying to kill your family or countrymen.
As Kind as people think the Dalai Lama is he has don’t more harm than good since he forgot that everything in moderation, since he over does or under does thing to make his people be in a worse predicament.


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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited June 15, 2006).]

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
LOL! Let's not bring up THAT discussion again .

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.
C. S. Lewis

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Wow. Comparing the Dalai Lama to Hitler. You are a real piece of work.
The irony is that you're the one always talking about twisted, distorted worldviews.

*Edit* I'm done with this thread. I've decided that if you perceive the X-Men as a threat to your faith, that's your problem and not mine. If people like you start burning "witches" again, maybe I'll be a bit more concerned. Quote me, bash me, and get on with life.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited June 15, 2006).]




Posts:
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Registered:
Ereon
lol ok

Cheese
lol you are funny but here is something to help you out.
Should I have said Dalai Lama and Stalin since he killed and tortured more? lol If you missed the point want to assume I bash you to find an excuse then that’s your exit strategy. I but I was not saying they are the same, but that everyone means well. Name one leader that said that they are evil and that they don't want peace or love? The problem is that they all think that the ends justify the means, than the means justify the ends. The word propaganda doesn’t seem that it affects them since they all feel they are superman or should I say xmen. Many people distort their Christian views and mix their vulture in with Christianity. Again like what G.B. Shaw said “The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Or like Christ said that to love society and god contradicts.

Who said anything about xmen weakening the faith but it does weaken people? As another saying goes when people think they are strong that is when they are vulnerable. If you think anything is ok then why not have live action homosexual actions on Saturday morning cartoons, on bill boards, or on kindergarten school books, etc? You obviously didn’t read the post about marketing. Like the saying goes “a sucker is born every minute” and you know that no one is perfect which is why so many get affected. Your logic is like if you dropped an egg once then it must mean that you are not allowed to carry eggs ever. Everyone makes mistakes and to praise a mistake or error is worse than the mistake or error.

Here are some quotes for you.
"Sixty years ago I knew everything; now I know nothing; education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance."
"The art of becoming wise is the art of knowing what to overlook."
We are in a society of people that don’t know how to appreciate what is right since so many people are not refined because that is how they were raised and think that to slap on that they say they Christians without acting like a Christian will help are dead wrong. Also no one is bashing you so quit complaining.
So in the end it seems that my comments are “a threat to your faith, that's your problem and not mine”. People that burned witches were hypocritical sinners burning other sinners, which is not Christianity but more like secularism, since their philosophy is that “the ends justify the means as well”.

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited June 15, 2006).]

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Cheese's point is that what you are argueing doesn't matter.

Dhali lama, stalin, hitler, who cares?

------------------
To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
Geronimo...


quote:
Originally posted by max:
Colossus is the guy who can turn his skin to steel.

Capn - Short response to the whole repent thing. If you make people lives hell day in and day out, and then suddenly realize that you want to repent, it works if you mean it in your heart/soul. I'm not expecting to "turn" you Capn, and I highly respect your views, just trying to explain it. If you just say the words, it doesn't work, you have to mean it.

Hope that helped.



I don't know about the "mean it" deal...regardless...and maybe you've all seen this before, this is my first post, I'm going to try not to get heavily involved as the last two forums I joined I got too ticked off - the superiority of the orthodox (actresses were whores but actors were okay, et al), the incessent niggling of the athiests (sheep and such comments) and the general sense of "my set of verses is better than yours" from the Protestants / Catholics.....I'm here to learn to code and build video games...atm Python is the highest of my skills and it's just a shade above barely seen.

But I did want to address one point:


Please pause a moment before continuing to read.

 
======================================================================
About repenting - but it's not about "you".
It's about Him. It's about His Grace. His Love. His Justice.

It's not about your deeds, what you did or didn't do...
...punishment, cursing, blessing, rewards...those result from thoughts and actions.
Salvation has nothing to do with anything but whether at some point in your
life you decided to accept Christ's work on the cross for your sins...to
believe that Jesus was the Son of God and that by believing you might have
life in His name.

The Bible is a complete work...not bits and pieces, one passage more important
than the another picked at random or due to personal preference.
Each question has an answer in those pages.
Every apparent glaring error and contridiction fits together with a
perfection higher than a swiss watch.

It's not about "you"...It's about Him.

And if it's about Him...well...discussion over.
======================================================================


Please pause a moment before continuing to read.

oh yea, and Hi.


p.s. or rather on-topic: Fiction - haven't yet figured whether fiction is sinning as a lie or what (not really interested in discussing it), but in the meantime...
If you consider super-powers as "God Complex" then I guess you'd be right. Superman, Batman...etc and so forth.
Nightcrawler probably my favorite though I like a good number of them.
X3 had some issues but wasn't too bad, though probably as an entire film not as good as X1 and X2...it felt a little rushed.
It's a movie, put on by a liberal group, containing references to real world issues....exercise your right to see it or not. I'm exercising my right by probably won't see DV Code, or read the book...the History Channel documentary was enough for me, and I refuse to see any movie (at least within the past 3-4 years through to the future) put out by Lion's Gate Film...I like Nicholas Cage but God of War was terrible, I tried renting a decently sounding movie saw it was by LGF, tried it for 5 minutes before returning it.

Again...I'm here for the ham and crackers...maybe a brownie or two if they're really good.

latas


[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited June 16, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited June 16, 2006).]

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
um... how could fiction be a lie/sinning if they never purport it as true? hellooooooo... the name 'fiction' right off the bat tells you it's not true, and everahboday knows it. it does mean not fact! lol, discussion ovahr. lol...

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WARNING:

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CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Ug, wow I'm just going to post on that shot at me "looks like capnstank didn't reply" I DO have a life outside these forums and when school, work, real social life and whatnot arise they take priority over this. Don't try to take no reply as a sign of backing off. I just wonder sometimes about this site. A spam topic lasts for 28+ pages but when a coding topic or something christian rises it fizzles by 2nd page. Does everyone come here to vent spam, noise, and anger?

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi




Posts:
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Registered:
Max
Yeah I know I am just teasing him. Lol

Netcog
Welcome. Well to make a Christian game it would need to have a story and if people get influenced with other ideologies then they will not make a Christian game but a secular game. Well that’s my opinion.

Buddboy
Yes fictions are made up but the moral principals are distorted. When people impose their views all the time that good is bad and that bad is good then some people will eventually believe it. Stories were to help people learn and understand things better and now it is used to brainwash.

Capstank
Well I didn’t think you would not reply but I was wondering when. Lol You talk about coding but your signature doesn’t imply about coding. People disagree on certain issues, and if one person want to make a Christian game their will always be another Christian that will disagree. Maybe the Christian games should say what denomination they are lol. Even the post political compass shows there is a difference. What kind of coding or game do you want to do?

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Me? Well right now I'm just using game maker until I get some better programs. I'm doing a top-down shooter by myself which I've lost lots of faith in and I'm working with a friend on an online game inspired by a Halo2 game we played on the internet and also an online version of the original pokemon (for fun). After I finish off those projects I'm planning on taking up C++ & DirectX to start a new project (no clue yet). I've been accepted to university for Software Engineering which I start in the fall.
Languages I know (roughly, I'm not an expert in any)
-GML (of course)
-C++
-C
-Java
-Python
-HTML

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi




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Registered:
Do you have any pics of the shooter game?

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
whoa whoa whoa... fiction books are used to brainwash people? okay... so you're agreeing with him... lemme see what other cockamamie ideas you two agree on... NetCog, what's your views on african americans and jews? (remembers really crazy arguments) aaaah... them were the days... sort of. oh, i didn't counter what you said. hmmmmm... books are used to brainwash people. okay, then what about christian fiction? is that brainwashing people to believe in christianity? noooooo... of course not, right? why is other fiction 'brainwashing' people. why do you think fiction is lying? its beyond me why anyone would think that, but then again, our society is totally ignoring the biological fact that two women cannot have a child... never know what people will believe.

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WARNING:

RADIOACTIVE IE AHEAD!
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#include <spazz.h>

int name()
{
char name['B','u','d','d','B','o''y']

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
I think I sent you a pm buddboy?
buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
yah, i already read it. all it did was give a bunch of crapola about jesus told parables, possibly fiction possibly not. and some questions about when does fiction become a lie. almost never. cuz it's just a story. that isn't purported as truth. never has been. never will. it's a lie when you tell it to deceive. duh.

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WARNING:

RADIOACTIVE IE AHEAD!
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#include <spazz.h>

int name()
{
char name['B','u','d','d','B','o''y']

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Dunno if you guys will ever agree on this, might be a bad idea for me to throw in my 2 cents, but what the heck.

I think the fuss about fiction movies and books(like DV Code) is pretty stupid and is just drumming up sales for the writers of that fiction.

OTOH, I think the writers have inserted certain themes in those stories that go along with their viewpoint to maybe change other people's opinion.

Whether or not that works is debatable, but I won't let it stop me from enjoying a good movie.

Or maybe that is just what they wrote into the story to make it interesting, who knows?

I don't think any of us can figure that out atm, so arguing about it and calling eachother names and <crapola> probably isn't going to help .

But who am I to be giving advice when I just had a big argument with somebody else over something equally picayune. So if you don't like it or something, by all means carry on .

Lazarus




Posts:
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Registered:
buddboy
Lack of communication as always lol.

For example you have children’s stories that have talking animals. But they try to teach kids things right?
If I tell you a fiction story about a turtle racing against a rabbit, it never happened. But the moral of the story is what was them point that the turtle won the race. We know that they won’t get along and talk. It is fiction just like xmen.

Fiction is used to make a point. It was used to educate, now it is used for persuade more than educate. You say Christianity persuades but it educates. In what they do now its 1/2 truths and Christianity is 100% truth if you say you are Christian and look at the facts that the more education people have the more they agree with it.

It is one thing to talk about and another thing to persuade. Stories are to help teach moral values, but now they teach that everything is good. Most of the Hollywood films say mostly non Christian views. The fact is that1+1=2 but secular society says 1+1=whatever you want it to be even if you don’t agree with what the other says which is insanity.

Christianity limits certain freedom so that people have true freedom. Unlike secular views that say that people should be free to do everything but they don’t say the consequences on themselves and imposed on others. We are not hippies to say free love, Christianity is against it since it how the consequences.

Bad thing are more addicting than good. Something pure is not simple to obtain but something dirty is. It’s easy to dirty clean water but hard to make clean dirty water. Again "if you mix **** with ice-cream you only ruin the ice-cream", but someone like cheesestorm that says " if you perceive the X-Men as a threat to your faith, that's your problem" which contradicts logic since is a drop of mud better are more pure than water and if so that’s our problem since then water is not worth it since people can't handle it. Well that’s a secular view for you to love drinking dirty water or having other impure things.

But in today's society it's not a drop of mud but a cup full that goes into your drinking water, and you have people that tell you that if you can't handle the dirty water then the clean water is not good enough for you. The bad thing is that Christians embrace what is wrong and support it.

Laz
I agree. The problem is that only the secular side is shown and the Christian side is not as stated in one example how the rated a Christian movie pg13 since it has Christian theme which is ranked up there with violence, profanity, etc. movies like "the last temptation of Christ" that is anti Christian is supported by Hollywood, but "the passion" pro Christian is attacked by Hollywood. They can not play are fair ground and the arguments they use to defend their point are meaningless since they wont let the other side speak since they know what they say is BS.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited June 21, 2006).]

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Hm, I feel bad for posting after I said I'd stop. Somehow I don't think your lies trouble you as much. Yet, I am the immoral atheist.
quote:
secular society says 1+1=whatever you want it to be

quote:
Well that’s a secular view for you to love drinking dirty water

False x 2.
quote:
someone like cheesestorm that says " if you perceive the X-Men as a threat to your faith, that's your problem" which contradicts logic

Lol, let me try again: If you perceive the X-Men as a threat to your faith, that's your problem.

I agree with you that fiction can be used to brainwash people. I just don't see that happening with the X-Men. I think it's just saying that power is used for good or evil depending on who has it. We should support those who are different, when they use their differences to help others.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited June 22, 2006).]




Posts:
From:
Registered:
Cheese I knew you would reply Just because you don’t agree since you don’t understand doesn’t mean it’s a lie. I didn’t say you are an immoral atheist, and you should stop thinking negative.

The 2 thing you quotes and say are false are true, but that you don’t want to believe it. Which is why you have another views and if you didn’t then you would not say that. You have to admit that a secular society is pushing for a “whatever you want it to be” mentality. It encourages people to embrace something unnatural and illogical. For example the feminist movement in how women are taught that they all can be like men, and like gay marriages but can't give birth naturaly. If women want equality they should fight in the boxing ring with a man, or go to the front line and carry 100 pounds of gear and weapon, same sex marriages, etc. Everyone has their role but the secular view want blur the lines.

If you think something pure and good is bad then…
“If you perceive the X-Men (poison) as a threat to your faith (water), that's your problem”
hmm wonder if it works the other way around
“If you perceive the X-Men (water) as a threat to your faith (poison), that's your problem”

Which metaphor seems more logical? I get the feeling you wont get it lol. Look at you, you think you are so strong that you think you are super man but yet you talk like a person that has been affected as in case one to think that you can drink bad water. If you and everyone can swallow example #1 then I will agree with you.
But I would guess you can not so you are now lying, and mainly to yourself.

Sure x-men has some good points in what you said to use your power for good, but you can not deny that it has many other messages besides that, which is why I said before it brings in ˝ truths to persuade people in other ideologies.

When society forgets the original meaning of things and embraces the twisted view of it then it shows that it has problems. Pretend you are my lawyer and you have to defend my side, so you should know the other side better than they know it and when you do then you can weigh which side gets it. Society needs atheists since they are easier to control to sell products to that perfect materialistic consumer which is why it pushes for it, and as the bible says the root to all evil is money since many will do anything for money.
Good luck

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Lol, my Dad is sorta like warsong. He actually thinks Walker, Texas Ranger is a bad show and Chuck Norris is an angel of light like Lucifer, disguised as something good but really something bad.

Whatever... it's a shame tho', I miss hearing that sound, dunno how you'd describe it , as Walker kicks somebody unconcious .

Lazarus

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
quote:
Warsong::
and as the bible says the root to all evil is money since many will do anything for money.

Wrong! It is the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. I'd quote a verse but there's more than one underscoring the "love of money" not money itself.


Buddboy - sorry but while it might have looked or read like crapola, it wasn't. It was the ramblings and thoughts of a man...not confused...but questioning, trying to find the "correct"ness.

Just like the often misrepresented evil of "money" vs "love of money"...
Just as meat isn't forbidden but rather a regard for your fellows should be considered

quote:
Romans 14:21
It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

Do I believe "fiction" is evil or wrong? I don't know. The Bible has indications that it, like a handful of things, aren't inherently a sin - either by reference or omission (as far as I am aware). But it's indications, not clear like murder, theft, or rape is wrong (I don't think...).

Am I concerned for my eternal place in Heaven because of "fiction"? Hardly. The indications of "fiction" being a sin or not are potentially clearer than some other unknown or gray areas...but in that clarity resides the unknown - for me.

If all fiction is defined as lies then fiction is a sin because lies are sinful.
Yet, Jesus told parables. Parables which might have been actual events, but might not be. Jesus would not have sinned, thus is "fiction" inherently sinful? If the parables are/were "fiction", then no - "fiction" is not inherently sinful.

I'm resting on relating "fiction" to that of "eating meat" and the "Intent" or circumstances of either to define the sinful or neutral nature of those actions. The only sin that could affect me and my eternal nature is the one of rejection of Christ...something I've already dealt with. The rest are details that pertain to my relationship with God and those around me.

I also find it difficult to believe all fiction as lies as sin when many people have been given or have developed imagination and talents in the 'arts' of written and artistic (draw, paint, sculpt) expression. However ultimately flawed it is, a logical case could be convincingly made to prove any artistic impression beyond that of historical documentation (or advice, or opinion notated as such) in written or graphical form which conveys an actual picture or series of events would be fiction thus lies. That everyone should be devoted only to production of goods or services directly, specifically, and utilitarian-ly relating to food, shelter, and clothing or working in support of such activities (financial services) is not what I think this life is solely about while we learn more of God and His plan for us. That seems too much like worker bees, and while we have a sin nature to distract us, we also have reason and imagination as gifts from God.

Ultimately, those trains of thought probably fall under a similar point as discussing "endless genealogies"....

though that brings up 1st Timothy 1:

quote:
3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies.

I have a feeling that passage still doesn't resolve "fiction" issue as I bet there is more to the story when you (A) study the context, (B) get the original Greek(?), and (C) bring in any other letters or books containing relevant material.
Parables being one example of (C).


Okay so that's pretty long and it's my 2nd detailed post in a subject I wasn't going to continue...oh well and anywho...

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited June 22, 2006).]

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
quote:
I didn’t say you are an immoral atheist, and you should stop thinking negative.

So, you admit that atheists have morals? That would be a positive thought!

quote:
The 2 thing you quotes and say are false are true, but that you don’t want to believe it.

How would you feel if I said something like "Christianity is poisoning our water."? Even as a metaphor, I think it would be unacceptable.

quote:
you are now lying, and mainly to yourself.

Let me make my stance more clear: I don't care about feminism or gay rights. Why? Even if I think it's gross, it's not harming anyone. If bad mutants use their powers for evil, it doesn't mean all mutants should be imprisoned.

quote:
Society needs atheists since they are easier to control to sell products to

Atheists buy just as much junk as everyone else.



Posts:
From:
Registered:
Laz
Sort of? Lol I never saw that show, I only seen the commercials of Walker, Texas Ranger.

Netcog
Yeah you are right about it says that the love of money is bad, but it's not that people will love their penny but the accumulation of money by any means to be used for hedonistic purposes. But the root to call evil is ignorance, since if everyone knew better then things would be better, and its too bad people think we are progressing despite kids are even getting dumber every year to hurt their and others body, mind, and soul.

Cheese
Some atheists act like Christians and some Christians act like atheists. Christianity is a guide but to say that you don’t need one most of the times there you are most likely to not do what is right. We can’t all be great thickeners like Plato to know what is right. I generally explained this to capnstank.

Non Christian views poison, and you can see things not by its words but by its actions. Secular views have made things worse in the US since divorce rates are higher; more people unhealthy, people own more, STD increased, etc. The country was founded on Christian values and even George Washington says for this country to do well it needs people to be Christians. The point of the metaphor was to state about how something pure is harder to obtain. As the bible says the wide, short, easy path is the wrong path.

You say that you don't care and that those like feminism gay rights don't harm anyone but the facts are that they do which is the whole point and they try to impose it on others. Even the bible is considered bad to some gays and is pushing for things to ban it. Which is why their are sects that make their own version and say they are Christian but are not and do bad things to Christians and non Christians like to turn them off, but you seem to encourage that type of secularization in a way, but you might come back and object and I might have to show another example lol. After the women’s movement everyone has been affected and things went down will. If you think it doesn't affect read the other side that the liberal media doesn’t say since they want their side of the story .
http://www.eagleforum.org/order/book/index.html#feminist some books to look at are “Feminist Fantasies”.

The thing with you is that you think you know enough to grasp what is going but you don't. Even Socrates which was one of the smartest men of all time said all he knows is that he knows nothing. He is humble just like how Christianity says to be humble and keep looking for answers.

Atheist do buy as much as everyone else but more. A real Christian doesn't do a lot of what secular people do and the ones that do have been influenced by secular views and the other Christians sects bow down to cater to society to buy the junk. You don’t know what a real Christian is yet and you mix everything. Even Socrates when he went to the market said that he saw so many things that he didn’t need. If you look hard enough you will see that secular people buy more junk for hedonistic pleasure while a real Christian buys what he needs for joy. Everything to moderation, unlike Las Vegas (sin city) is doing well since it thrives on secular people to see its products. Gambling is a sin and the government is making a lot from it. Christians should fast but more secularized Christian sects don’t do which is good for companies. The list goes on. Remember in pool you hit another ball so that it hits the ball you want, so don’t expect secularists to give you the answers since they won’t.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
quote:
By warsong:
But the root to call evil is ignorance, since if everyone knew better then things would be better, and its too bad people think we are progressing despite kids are even getting dumber every year to hurt their and others body, mind, and soul.

That might be. But then there are people who do "know better" yet do it anyways. Ignorance isn't the "root". The old sin nature is. If we are discussing on your references (and without consulting Scripture at this point), if anything it's "arrogance" which is the root. Arrogance that "my" way is more important than "God's" way. (And I think Scripture would support that - what with the examples of Lucifer's rebellion and Adam and Eve's rebellion.)
Ignorance isn't the "root", and Education isn't the "key". The world is full of God's Education yet we still have sin.

"Real Christian". Define "real". The drunkard on the street who is jobless, homeless, and listless who at one time walked through the doors of a church or heard someone speaking, recognized himself for the sinner that he was/is, realized he couldn't get There on his own, and recieved Christ as his Savior is no more or less a "real christian" than someone who goes to church every 2nd or 3rd day, prays and reads his Bible 45 minutes every morning and night, and is at peace with everyone they encounter.

There is no "act" that is "better", there is no "act" that is "worse", done by one who is saved, which makes that one any more or less "really saved" than their saved neighbor.

It. Is. Not. About. Following. The. Law.

I hesitate referencing this without additional passages as many of the other verses are used incorrectly but Luke 18 is pretty clear about the law issue. 1st Timothy 6 provides additional reference for some issues brought up in Luke 18, 2nd Timothy 2 also provides additional reference for some side issues brought up by the earlier passages....I could probably go on but I'll stop here.


[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited June 24, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited June 24, 2006).]

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
On the topic of buying junk, there is no difference between real Christians, real Buddhists, real Taoists, sensible atheists, etc. The average person (Christian, Buddhist, whatever) will try to buy happiness even if they know it's impossible. I wonder why the great spiritual "leaders" don't live in simple houses.

TV commercials are mostly aimed at stupid people who can't think for themselves. Like you said, actions speak louder than words. It doesn't matter what religion they say they are because they're still going to buy a $70,000 truck to pick up groceries once a week.

Destroying the love for money can not be done by religion alone because it is up to the people themselves. If they really want to follow religion (or if they're sensible enough to have "common sense"), they can get rid of their addictions. But as Morpheus says in the Matrix, "You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it."

So let's work together and think of solutions. If they followed their religions they wouldn't be buying this junk, but they only follow their addictions. My solution is to remind them that any day could be their last! If that doesn't motivate them, then I don't know what will. Not counting Hell, cause I don't believe in it. ^_^

You're right about feminism, it does slow progress.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited June 24, 2006).]

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
I don't usually get into this, but in reply to Warsong's post and in agreement with Netcog, weren't Adam and Eve innocent when they were ignorant? If ignorance is evil then why did evil come into man when they weren't ignorant of evil anymore? Just an honest question, for Warsong.

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited June 24, 2006).]

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
oooh... nice point lava... i don't even want to get into these arguments anymore, for one reason, what is teh point? plus i don't have the energy to read all these long posts..

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WARNING:

RADIOACTIVE IE AHEAD!
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CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Budd: The point? Waste time perhaps? I don't think there is a real point to this all.

One thing that we have a habit of doing here is generalizing people, Christians, Athiests, etc. We look at them as if the majority who are clueless and blindly follow their claims aren't the best example of those paradigms or points of view. Be honest here, there is a LOT of "Christians" you know who blindly follow the faith but no clue why. Have they taken the time to step back and look at why they're religious? When Cheese and I look at general Christians this is who we see, I admit (but then again I shouldn't speak on Cheese's behalf). When you speak of Atheists you see "immoral" "greedy" "stupid". Which, by the way, is actually very stereotypical.

Our arguements usuaally end no where because of this I believe. But back to the topic at hand...

Like Cheese said, the fact that you're Christian won't make anything snap in your head saying, oh, I shouldn't buy this. It's you making the decision, just the same as an athiest can say that. Sure the Bible may preech the idea of being free from material desire, but I understand that concept and heck, I didn't need a book to tell me that.

There are both intelligent Christians and intelligent Athiests, but we got to learn that being religious doesn't effect you in any way besides being religous. I've stated many times (it's pretty hard to prove over a forum) that I live my life very well, I assist others when needed, and am never afraid to speak up for what I feel is right. I'm not greedy, or stupid, and that in no way is effected by my 'religion.' So could we please leave the idea that your faith is somehow connected to your character elsewhere?

EDIT: Woot, page 2!

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

[This message has been edited by CapnStank (edited June 24, 2006).]

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
thank you CapnStank, my point exactly. there is no point, unless you just like wasting your time. which i believe was discussed in another topic, saying that playing games is a waste of time. well, this is. so i think i'm gonna go play a game. =D

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WARNING:

RADIOACTIVE IE AHEAD!
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#include <spazz.h>

int name()
{
char name['B','u','d','d','B','o''y']




Posts:
From:
Registered:
netcog
Ignorance leads to sin. Since if they knew the consequences then they would stop. No man would do evil if they knew what evil really is. We all lack the insight of the great philosophers before Christ since we pick up barbaric views and teat good and bad equality without thinking it out well. You can see lack of information when atheists ask simple questions but think they know the hardest questions.

Cheese
Great spiritual leaders do live in simple homes, and is why they are called saints and the ones that act very religious are called monks. Many priests fall short since they are people too. But you can not say that what is right is wrong since people can not do what is right so easily. You do not know math well but does that mean math is wrong? Many religious people tend to be more secular since they get influenced by society. Even Christ said you can not follow both equally, which Christ is right since it contradict.

The founding fathers knew that to have a better society people have to be Christian and they based their views on Christian and Ancient Greek views since they knew it was similar. Many people down south agree which is why they made their own Parthenon to show respect to them since some say to be american you have to be Greek/christian, but now we mix and put things that go againt it to contradict and pass it off as good which is insane. Every other culture is just the bread crumbs of those and they have some good points because of its origins. Now society pushes away form it and people wonder why they have so many problems and only look at the technological advancements in progress while most things are degraded.

That is what happens when people do not know history.

Lava
If Adam and Eve knew enough they would not take the apple, they acted without thinking it out enough. The devil did come to them to persuade them to eat the apple. Adam and Eve were no intellects.

Capnstank
I said a few things to cheese. I agree with some thing in what you say since people follow it blindly and don’t know why they do it and have to step back and understand. People are not taught about the origins in how and why things are and are just told to do it. People the become curious and do bad since they don’t understand. As they say curiosity killed the cat.

I agree if a little in your point about atheists lol The greate4st minds were the ancient Greeks which helped influence Christianity so are they stupid, immoral, greedy etc like their counterparts of the time like the Persians, Jews, and other tribes that live in tents? Secularists attack Christianity for not being scientific but they should look at themselves since they say everyone is equal like sexes for example which go against general biology. If they are not stupid then maybe evil since they intentionally do that. Toilets have been invented 2000 years ago by the people that acted Christian like but this is a new concept to people today. Even Christians diluted their faith for secular views and act without morals which even the immoral people of old times had more morals than many Christians do today. Many Christians are Christians by word than by actions.

Obviously both religious and non religion will buy junk but more likely people that lean away from their religious beliefs. Even Socrates was not a Christians since Christ was not around then but many say he was a Christian in his actions, and when he went to the market he said he never saw so many things that he didn’t want, but in today’s society people feel they never saw so much that they want. Logic = Ancient Greek thinkers = Christianity and the founding fathers knew this and this information is not taught now to embrace what is wrong and people get wrong ideas and pass it off as good. It’s like mixing perfection with imperfection into one (mix black and white to be gray) and some point out some good things in the imperfection (in the gray) obviously. When you mix **** with Ice-cream you only ruin the ice-cream.

Buddboy
Some people learn and understand more to apply to make them selves better. Only something good would be a waste of time for people that don’t want to learn and only something not so good would be meaningful to people that don’t understand.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
Lava
If Adam and Eve knew enough they would not take the apple, they acted without thinking it out enough. The devil did come to them to persuade them to eat the apple. Adam and Eve were no intellects

wow...just wow...

Point 1. Adam and Eve were created perfect. To assume they were not perfect mentally is to assume a defect in God's initial unspoiled creation.
Point 2. They communicated with God, likely on a daily basis.
Point 3.

quote:
Genesis 2
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."


quote:
Genesis 3
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.



Point 4.
Some ignorance sort of can lead to sin. Not knowing the traffic laws could result in a ticket or a warning.
Carte-blanc "being ignorant" of something...even something wrong does not make sin. And carte-blanc "being informed" does not lead to perfect righteousness.
-- Review the Garden of Eden if there are any more questions to that effect.

The story of the Old Testament is rife with examples of people knowing what they should do and what they shouldn't do but doing their own thing anyways. Saul...David...Solomon...Samson...Moses...the Israelites in the wilderness...shall I keep going?
The New Testament is not without examples either...Peter for one...The religious leaders of Christ's time weren't stupid, they were well informed, and they rejected him.

The news today is filled with the exact same thing.

Shoot...Lucifer was top dog of the angels and even he rebelled. Who better to know God and to know what God considers right and wrong than the guy who stands behind the throne of heaven? Not to mention the third that followed Lucifer.


It's not about information. To see God in creation is enough.

quote:
Romans 1
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.



A couple of particular direct replies:

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
netcog
Ignorance leads to sin. Since if they knew the consequences then they would stop. No man would do evil if they knew what evil really is.

Please tell me you've never been around kids. Because if you had, you'd know that 2nd sentence is a bald-faced lie.

Please, on what basis you believe the 3rd sentence to be true?

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited June 28, 2006).]




Posts:
From:
Registered:
netcog
Perfection is perfection, it does not error. If they were truly perfect they would be God. Let’s not deal with just words we see since many ignore the logic.

Ignorance is the lack of information to be logical, logic is Christian views, and lack of logic is further away form Christian view which leads to sin. Try to pull that stunt in society and use the excuse that you didn’t know that law and the judge will tell you that you should have known it. “But your honor I didn’t know robbing was against the law I didn’t see a sign that it was bad” lol

Here is a true story.
Have you heard of an atheist that was trying to persuade people to not be Christian and spread atheism? Well that guy had medical problems and went to have surgery but he died for a while, then he came back to life and while he was dead he says he saw hell even though he did not believe in it. He has been “shown” what would happen if he leads his life the way he does and admits that he was “ignorant” about the truth and so he became a Christian and went around trying to teach others that there is a hell. He saw what evil really was and he wanted nothing of it since he did know evil enough or have enough knowledge of what evil was to believe it before it since he was ignorant. It was in a book I forgot the name, maybe you know it.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
I was mistaken in my use of Perfect with regards to Adam and Eve. Replace "perfect" with "good". The point still stands.
~ Adam and Woman were not morons.
~ They had far more exposure to God (in Eden) than we do (face to face anyways).
~ They made their choice not from ignorance but out of choosing to go against God's decree. To assume that with more "intelligence" they would have stopped and thought things through is to assume the higher the IQ (or whatever) the less you will sin. Even if we limit that assumption to those with high IQ (whatever) and who are Christian, that is still a lie. It is perpetuating the lie that Satan told Woman.

I will not debate the merits of "logic" as a concept. The truth of "logic" as a concept is that one can factually logically come to a wrong conclusion. I can "prove" anything with some scraps of "fact" and a good dose of logic. And leaving it in the hands of "logic" is 'debating' on the wrong level. Because then you have to define whose logic is "best", which brings you back to faith and God which you might as well have started there in the first place. Logic or reason is only one of the handful of evidences we have at our disposal, it is not the magic yard stick.

Yes I have heard of the story.

The "excuse" of sin to be purely ignorance is a falsehood. There is no ignorance of God and of his Creation. There is no ignorance of salvation even if one has not heard the name of Christ - for two reasons: 1. Creation dictates that God exists, 2. God is faithful. Should I never hear the name of Christ yet I believe that God is God and I am man and sinful and there is no method of work that I may be with God, I will be saved. Yet God is God and should I require to hear the name of Jesus and thus then be saved, I will.

Unlike our court system where "ignorance" of the evidence might or might not be a valid defense and independently might or might not adjust the penalty, the evidence of God's creation is inherent in each one of us. To deny the evidence and produce an argument of "ignorance" is to proclaim our "arrogence" and to be blind to His handiwork. To make that claim is to say, "I see Creation but it is not enough, I demand more. Prove yourself to me God." Though He has already "proven" himself.
{Substitute "Creation" for any level of exposure. Creation is enough, yet we are given the Bible, and we are given teachers.}

I think something needs to be clarified (for myself included)
"men are without excuse" There is no ignorance pertaining to acceptance or rejection of God and salvation.
Not knowing the "law" can result in sin.
Not knowing a law does not mean it will be broken.
Knowing the law will not keep it from being broken.
I also find I misquoted - it should be "love of money is a root of all kinds of evil"

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited June 29, 2006).]




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Do you know how Domino or billiards works? It causes a chain reaction but you should know the source of it.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Evil
I just found this saying by Molly Ivins ”I believe that ignorance is the root of all evil. And that no one knows the truth.”

Only a fool will choose evil and a fool is not known for their brain since they lack it when they act like fools. What you say goes against logic if you step back and loot at it as a whole. I am not saying to have a high IQ will prevent you from doing sin since being smart is not just having a high IQ on certain aspects and not on others.

People are inherently evil but if you look closely the bible (NT) is truth since its logical and the apostles lives mostly in Ancient Greece which they were known for logic and inspired Christianity. So it seems that the more knowledge the less evil they did and money was not the issue since there were no homeless people back then (as we have today) and only rich people paid taxes because they wanted to give to get honor, fame, etc. Kind of like how some churches are run when people give money and their names are mentioned. Things flourished which benefited us all now and we take for granted the information and people embrace the opposite and wonder why there is poverty, crime, diseases, homelessness, immorality, etc.

The love of money is “from” the ignorance to not know the consequences. And not to the ignorance
Ignorance of faith is still ignorance, ignorance of God is still ignorance, and so ignorance of ignorance is still ignorance.

Money and ignorance can be used as tools, but the most powerful one is ignorance. But if you had to pick something material by people then ignorance doesn’t count. When you are the richest person like bill gates that gives away money like water its ignorance the makes him sin as I stated in the other post.

I also like this saying by Edmund Burke: “All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing.”

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world