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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

1. Like you said before, it makes God like a vending machine or genie.

2. I don't think anyone should "subsitute" something of the devil (magic) for something of God. When you put a different label on it, it still has the same object that the magic had.

The devil is a cheap imitation of everything that is God's. Why copy the copy?

Look for orignal ways to show the essence of God. You can go into the game Doom and shoot up demons with a machine gun, but if you put a Cross on the gun does it make it any more "Christian"? If all Christian games are just a imitation of the secular games then what's the point in that? Christian game developers are better than that!

What if you took the Gifts of the Spirit from Galatians and made them evident in your game? You don't have to get supernatural to show someting of God in your game, even a moral game is better than a "Cross-i-zized" copy of a secular one.

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited May 24, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by buddboy:
I am working on an MUD with MITE (yay, MITE!) and i was thinking, instead of the whole classic 'magic' thing, why not have prayer (of course only to God) ? but riflefire said he was going to do that in his MUD, but his teammates objected. then he listed objections. some of them made sense, like making it seem like God was a vending machine. he said he recommended like having specific prayers that you could use that would bring specific results like praying for protection and getting it... i was thinking you could pray for God to close your enemy's eyes... like they did in the bible... and then you'd be invisible to them for a while. i was wondering if anyone had any advice/suggestions for me, i don't want to screw this up because, of course, God is holy... i'm not even sure if i should do it... any advice?

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Hey Buddboy,
Glad you posted this here like I suggested you do. As i shared with you, when my teammates objected to having the computer play the part of God via a prayer for protection/powers system, I dropped that idea. Like I told ya, it did make God into a vending machine. IE: pray and then bingo, instant answer. Even having a randomization factor in it did not stop this problem cause if you type it enough, it would eventually happen. God doesnt always answer prayers the same way for people nor with a yes either all the time. It would have been very very hard to put in a prayer system is what i was told due to this and other reasons. Some also felt it trivialized God's Holyness to simulate Him in a game. Others felt that having the computer play God was wrong as well. So like I said, I stopped that avenue of game design and moved on to other things that people did like.
An on magic, as i told you, in games that have a fantasy setting, I have yet to see many people able to resist the pull to put in some form of magic in that type of setting. Most games today cannot resist the temptation to put in some form of magic in their fantasy based games. I have always been of the opinion that magic is the usage of supernatural power from a being other than God of the Bible. So i avoid it like the plague if i can these days. In fact just recently i had to drop another mud i was playing cause it was magic based. I just couldnt live with myself playing it anymore.
You also mentioned putting dragons into your game, I am not so sure you should do that either. Thats just my feeling.
At any rate, i wish you well with your mud and this is precisely the best place to post about it as you will get very good feedback on your games contents.
God bless you,
RifleFire

@riflefire: you never exactly said you dropped it... but yah i'm not gonna do it..

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

quote:

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Originally posted by buddboy:
hmm... good point lava, only i wasn't really substituting it, i just thot of having it in there... i guess i won't put it in there... that fruit of the spirit thing is cool!! hmm... i'd have to figure out how to implement it tho... any ideas?

@riflefire: you never exactly said you dropped it... but yah i'm not gonna do it..

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I agree that you shouldn't automatically get what you pray for in the game world because it does make God look like a vending machine. With that thought I also think that you shouldn't throw an idea out, you want prayer in the game, find another way for it to aid the player.

Now, if your going to be greedy and go slashing and hacking just for Gold, you probably won't be doing much praying!

For example, let's say a character decides to lead a fight against an evil. Instead of having a Pray action, prayer might be something that just 'happens' in the course of a Christian player hero based on his current situation and prior decisions.

Here's an example, this would kind of be like a cutscene (Do MUDs have cutscenes? lol ) -

cutscene
-voice of narrator

That night I called them together. As they emerged one by one, their glowing and shadowed faces were made vivid by the fire. I realized that this might be the last night I see each of them, and to this day, I have never forgotten those flame imbued faces. Fighting to choke back the onslaught of emotions that night was harder than any fighting I every experienced on the battlefield. But I had to be strong, for them. No one spoke a word, not even Crayflin who always had some pun or quibble especially at the most inappropriate occasion. I smiled briefly at that thought. But I didn't know what to tell them. So I did the only thing I knew how to do when I didn't know what to do. I prayed. "God, help us defeat our enemies. We are few in number, tired, beaten, hungry and some of our greatest brothers have fallen. By your strength and your will alone, we will finish this war to defend our families and countrymen from this darkest of evil that has landed upon our shores. If it be your will, tomorrow we shall prevail and all glory and honor be unto you! Amen."

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

We can and should always believe that God answers our prayers and have no doupt about it (Mar 11:24, Joh 9:31). But what right do we have to say who's prayer God - the almighty creator of heaven and earth and all life - will answer and how?

I don't know what else you could use in your game but my advice is to view your character as it were you and then you can ask questions like: what can you say for sure about your self and what can you decide to do knowing the outcome? Well the answer to the later question is nothing since God can and does effect on all things but I think it's ok to say that you can sleep in order to rest.

I hope you will find the right way buddboy and I know you will IF you want to please God from all your heart and choose His way. God's will that is. (Mat 26:42)

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2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

If you put in prayer as just part of the script, or a cutscene, then it removes the willfullness of the player to engage in prayer. For someone who desires to have their character pray more, it is limiting. For someone who does not desire to have their character pray, it could be seen as contrived or insulting. In either case, it causes the player to identify less with the act of prayer. If prayer is something that the player can choose to do, he or she will "own" the decision more and the game becomes a more powerful tool to encourage people to pray.

If we know that God works all things together... then every game involving people and various outcomes is a reflection of a universe created and controlled by God. If you create a game without any prayer or divine assistance, then you are creating an image of a cold, Godless universe--one that many people actually believe we live in. How is that glorifying to God?

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|steveth45|
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quote:

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Originally posted by steveth45:

If we know that God works all things together... then every game involving people and various outcomes is a reflection of a universe created and controlled by God. If you create a game without any prayer or divine assistance, then you are creating an image of a cold, Godless universe--one that many people actually believe we live in. How is that glorifying to God?

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It is true what you said but about I don't think that is a very good point because just leaving praying out doesn't mean you have to leave God out.

In fact if you can play a game where you are playing that you are praying God and the almighty blesses you in the game despite the fact what your mentality is towards God is then you are also allowing playing to roleplay righteous one in front of God.

Having some code to determine who's prayer God will answer is an very disrespectful towards Holy God. And any serious attemb on creating system that rewards the just one's in the game will only result in self-righteous judgin system which is far away from the justice God does.

Keep praying about this, forget what you would like to see in the game and you will do the right thing, God's will that is.

In Christ,
Jari.

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2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

It's a matter of personal conviction whether or not it is disrespectful to God to have a computer game that "simulates" His response to prayer. For that reason, I won't attack your stance on the issue, but I will offer an alternative. If it is done prayerfully and with care and a heart to spread the good news to as many as possible, I do not believe God would be disrespected by including an active prayer system in a game with actual positive benefits to the outcome of a game.

Here is a possibility that I just pulled out of the air. What if you have an RPG where part of the game allows you to interact with NPC's and even share the gospel with them? What if by persistence (visiting them every day) the NPC's would be more likely to accept the message of Christ? What if, by having an option to have your character "pray" for the NPC, it increased the probability on a given day of the NPC accepting Christ?

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|steveth45|
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but i'm gonna still pray about it some more, i'll keep all this advice in mind =D
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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

[This message has been edited by buddboy (edited May 30, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by steveth45:
Here is a possibility that I just pulled out of the air. What if you have an RPG where part of the game allows you to interact with NPC's and even share the gospel with them? What if by persistence (visiting them every day) the NPC's would be more likely to accept the message of Christ? What if, by having an option to have your character "pray" for the NPC, it increased the probability on a given day of the NPC accepting Christ?

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Steveth45,
I had this very thought sometime back, and am still considering it, as a possiable alternative to the useage of a prayer system for power/special effects in my game. Also under consideration is the possible praying for someone who is under attack by the Evil One. Its hard to know how this would be recieved by people who really are against having God simulated in games. I didnt recieve much good nor bad responce to this very idea. Its not easy to program either though. You run into the playing GOD with the computer argument again too. But it is an option that I am still considering for my science fiction/Christian Friendly game - TheWayMUD. In TWM, various NPC would be able to be witnessed too and based on a whole host of things, they might convert. Also, though, it brings up the subject of how would you present to the player the rejection of the Gospel by the NPC? You dont want to lead anyone away from Jesus so thats a tough spot. If you have any further ideas on this "NPC conversion", then i would love to hear them. Also, I am also considering going to Torque to make this game. I have torque and its nice but i know very little about it and c++ currently. I brought the Torque programmers guide but its written predominately for doing single player games so not sure what to do about that. Would you perhaps be interested helping code in a text (C# Scripts in the MITE engine) or torque (C++/TorqueScript) version or neither?
RifleFire

quote:

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Originally posted by riflefire:
Also under consideration is the possible praying for someone who is under attack by the Evil One.

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I have to ask what is the "Evil One"?

quote:

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Originally posted by riflefire:

In TWM, various NPC would be able to be witnessed too and based on a whole host of things, they might convert. Also, though, it brings up the subject of how would you present to the player the rejection of the Gospel by the NPC? You dont want to lead anyone away from Jesus so thats a tough spot.

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In VoHW you can talk to the NPCs and witness to them but if the player chooses not to witness he will be witnessed to by the same NPC later on when the NPC is saved anyway. And if player rejects the Gospel it's nothing final and no remarks are nesessary. So if player chooses to say "yeah whatever just leave me alone" he can always return to the NPC and hear more.
I hope that helps you to make the right decision, the answer comes from the Lord.

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2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

In Christ,
Jari.

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2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

quote:

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Originally posted by steveth45:

It's a matter of personal conviction whether or not it is disrespectful to God to have a computer game that "simulates" His response to prayer.

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This is not true, we can learn from the Bible that even man's heart wouldnt judge him, his actions may still be against God's will.
For example king Uzziah became broud and thought that he could go Lord's temple to burn incense on the altar but this was bad in the Lord's eyes. (2Ch 26:16)

quote:

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Originally posted by steveth45:

For that reason, I won't attack your stance on the issue, but I will offer an alternative. If it is done prayerfully and with care and a heart to spread the good news to as many as possible, I do not believe God would be disrespected by including an active prayer system in a game with actual positive benefits to the outcome of a game.

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Be careful what you say in the Lord's name. We can have many ideas that sound great way to serve the Lord and yet they are not.
Note what the Lord says about the false prophets who speak from their own heart thinking that they serve the Lord but in fact they served man when they told every one what they wanted to hear, even Israel was sinning against the Lord. (Jer 14:14)

I'm confident to engage this discussion about Lord's will because of my own experince. You see Jesus has shown to me that many of my great ideas were not pleasing to Him after all. The same thing can happen to all of you if you listen the desires of your own heart more than the Lord like I (shame to admit) did. And believe me if you are being lead by your own desires then you wont know it now because you are blinded by them!

I hope you are doing the right thing in whatever aproach you take and I will keep praying for wisdom for all of us.

May God bless you all when you seek for His kingdom.

In Christ,
Jari.

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2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited May 31, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by riflefire:
Steveth45,
Its hard to know how this would be recieved by people who really are against having God simulated in games. I didnt recieve much good nor bad responce to this very idea. Its not easy to program either though. You run into the playing GOD with the computer argument again too. But it is an option that I am still considering for my science fiction/Christian Friendly game - TheWayMUD. In TWM, various NPC would be able to be witnessed too and based on a whole host of things, they might convert. Also, though, it brings up the subject of how would you present to the player the rejection of the Gospel by the NPC? You dont want to lead anyone away from Jesus so thats a tough spot. If you have any further ideas on this "NPC conversion", then i would love to hear them. Also, I am also considering going to Torque to make this game. I have torque and its nice but i know very little about it and c++ currently. I brought the Torque programmers guide but its written predominately for doing single player games so not sure what to do about that. Would you perhaps be interested helping code in a text (C# Scripts in the MITE engine) or torque (C++/TorqueScript) version or neither?
RifleFire

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Well, I'd say don't throw out the prayer idea right away (please Jari, we know how you feel from your numerous posts, no need to respond). You can always remove it during the testing phase if it doesn't work. Although, it would seem an integral part of any game where you were trying to share the gospel. About NPC's rejecting the gospel... most people do the first time they are exposed to it. So, I don't think you'd be doing anyone a favor by making a game where everyone you preached to got instantly saved. In life, you have to deal with people not accepting what you say to them about Jesus. The game could provide an opportunity for people to be more persistent then they would be in real life about the gospel and see the fruit of that. I'll send you a pm later about the other questions, as it is off topic from this discussion.

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|steveth45|
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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

I don't see why Christian games have to have something supernatural to show God. I think a game would be better if it appied morals presented in the Bible first as a cornerstone, then built that supernatrual stuff upon that later.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lava:
But really, should we even simulate someone getting saved? Because isn't it the Holy Spirit that convicts their heart to become a Christian? Just like I don't think we should simulate performing the miracles of Jesus in a game. I think if we aren't going to use prayer in a game, then the same goes for getting someone saved.

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I haven't heard anything compelling to make me think we shouldn't put any of these things into games. I don't think I'd want to make a game where the player performs miracles... God performs miracles. The fact is that there are already numerous Christian games that involve preaching, prayer, evangelism, and NPC's getting saved. This was my third year at the CGDC and I've seen different games with all these elements each year. so when you say, "if we aren't going to use prayer in a game, then the same goes for getting someone saved." The "we" you are referring to is probably a small minority of Chistian game developers.

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|steveth45|
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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind