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I use to say 5 years ago that the Muslim religion is not good and I get attacked by all sides and say I judge, I am this and that, and other bad things. Now after 5 years some people turn around after they get a reality kick in the head to agree. Some understand by listening to other popular people that talk about the religion, they see the actions in what they do, etc. I get treated the same ignorant ways with other thing I have said but people will only understand since it is too late, since many want to learn the hard way always. Anyway "Islam will take over Europe without violent" Well the US must be proud since they help air, fund, train, and attack/bomb people like most Christian nations to bring Muslim in. Non EU members are pressuring other Muslim countries to go into the EU. "Europe is in a predicament, and so is America," Gadhafi said. "They should agree to become Islamic in the course of time, or else declare war on the Muslims." You can’t blame them since they are playing by the rules and it is the Christians that are failing since it is not a growing religion like the Muslim one. This is what happens when non Christians do not do anything and let others walk all over them. They know that they can not win a way so another way to do it is by taking advantage of silly rules that the countries put in. Some countries refutes to allow Muslim mosks so that they do not come into the country while other make many and more keep coming in. The ones that do not allow Muslim mosks they are forced to or else they will face problems with the UN, EU, and US which Christians do not have full control over any of them. If things persist their will be no "French" people, "Spaniards" or many other to see their cultures and traditions within 25-50 years from now. Even your grand kids or kids might concert to Islam and cast away Christianity. You see how every Muslim nation is a 3rd world country and the poorest country in Europe is the only Muslim one. The rest of Europe will follow if they keep ignoring and giving so many social liberal programs to them. Well what else you expect from the Muslim religion where it took many of its influence from its fellow non Christian cousin's ideology the Talmud/Torah. But yet some will disagree with that too, I guess I will wait another 5 years. ------------------ |
luke Member Posts: 311 From: I use your computer as my second Linux box Registered: 10-30-2005 |
I agree that Europe will become Islamisiced, but not in the same fashion as you are. The 'take over' of Europe by Muslims is much akin to the *possible* 'take over' of America by Mexicans. I don't mind Mexicans, most of them in my opinion are good people that are desparate. The problem with Muslims is that well... they're the people that chop heads, hang bodies, use suicide bombs, and are very irrational. But there is a difference between European Muslims and 'arab' Muslims. Many European Muslims assimilate into the culture successfully (We only here about those that *don't*) and basically we will have a Muslim Europe, but Muslim Europe should probably be pretty much like current Europe, but Muslim. Thats my two cents too many ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
So you're saying that Europe and the US should become a theocracy? Isn't that, taken from previous historical refrences, a bad idea? Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. If you put Christianity at the head of government, and give even the strongest of Christians too much power is it not likely that it will corrupt said persons and end up causing even more pain and suffering and damage to Christianity itself? ------------------ "I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind |
luke Member Posts: 311 From: I use your computer as my second Linux box Registered: 10-30-2005 |
Europe being 'overrun' by Muslims != Christian theocracy EBOBM == Muslim Theocratic Rule ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
EBOBM? English please ------------------ "I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind |
crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
europe being overrun by muslims. ------------------ |
Tonnyx Member Posts: 140 From: Indiana, USA Registered: 08-02-2005 |
I would like to note that part of Islam's success in Europe has to do with the fact that Islam is absolutist. They believe that their view of reality is truly reality. They have a purpose to fulfill, and a reasonably well-defined value system to boot. Mainstream Europe and America, on the other hand, are becoming more and more relativistic, even existential. No view of reality is real, and any meaning in life is, at best, a set of working assumptions that make life easier to deal with. Is it any wonder that the birth rate of native Europeans is shrinking? Why bother creating more meaningless things that are expensive and a big bother anyways? And is it any wonder that Muslims, who have a high view of the family, a clear notion of the purposes of the family, and a purpose to fulfill on the earth appear to be on track to take over Europe? How much can a person or a nation or a sub-continent really care to oppose an ideology when it believes that you're not allowed to analyze, judge, and potentially criticize anybody else's beliefs? Will America fare any better? Only by the grace and intervention of God. The culture and public school education have, in decentering education from the traditional emphases of Western history and philosophy, caused us to forget our roots, and to forget how Christianity shaped and strengthened Western culture. This could prove a fatal weakness. I say "us", because I'm still struggling with the fact that I do not know historical Western thought all that well, and I would like to have grown up with an education and a worldview such as Francis Schaeffer advocated. It's hard to play catch-up, but I would like to slowly work at it, and hopefully raise my kids that way. I am currently reading a book by his son, Franky Schaeffer - [u]Fake Pearls for Real Swine[/u], and it totally rocks. Everyone should read it. I don't agree with everything he says, but it's fabulously thought-provoking and everyone should read it. ------------------ |
luke Member Posts: 311 From: I use your computer as my second Linux box Registered: 10-30-2005 |
Yeah, another example of strong moral beliefs are the Mormoms. I know several Mormans myself and although they have some very *strange* beliefs, they also have very strong morals. At any rate at least they are way ahead of us PC westerners. ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
PC? ------------------ "I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind |
luke Member Posts: 311 From: I use your computer as my second Linux box Registered: 10-30-2005 |
politically correct ie all cultures/religions/countries/sexual orientations etc are equal... ------------------ |
nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
It should not come as a shock that the propaganda of the Islam extremists is being denied as part of the Islamic system by Muslims and non-Muslims alike. It should not come as a shock that several prominent "Christian" people help spread this denial of extreme Islamic propaganda as being totally disassociated with Islam. And yet the question remains - why are the Imams and various Muslim clerics that speak these falsehoods in power if they do not speak the truth of Islam, and why has the majority of the (true, peaceful, tolerant?) Islam nation done nothing to resolve the problem? What we have here is the right hand and left hand of the same beast. Anyone who knows the roots of Islam and has studied the history of these people is aware of the truth of Islam. "Infidels" is a term that applies to all non-Muslim people, even those same non-Muslim people that herald Islam beside the well-mannered and well-dressed Muslim. Unfortunately many people do not understand the ideology of thought within the Islamic system. There is only peace within the Islamic society when everyone is Islamic. It is a serious crime - against the person and Allah - for a Muslim to steal, rape, kill, etc, against another Muslim. It is not a crime to do so against any non-Muslim, even if they are supportive of Islam. There are two sets of rules - one for the Muslim-to-Muslim reality, and another for the Muslim-to-Infidel reality. Islam is not the only religion with two sets of rules (Mormonism comes to mind, since it was mentioned). Islam is gaining sentiment, spreading like the cancer it is across the face of the globe. The mainstream press won't reveal the connection between the ethnic cleansing we hear about in Africa and Asia with Islam (hard to speak out against the people that pay your salary). With all of this sentiment and disinformation and propaganda over Islam, is it any wonder why Israel will be attacked by the nations surrounding her? Is it any wonder why those who believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be slaughtered, and those who escape will be forced into hiding? Is it any wonder why Islam has been understood as a religion about a relationship with the true God when it is nothing of the sort? This is intentional...but fortunately the true God, not some false god, will prevail. We must maintain our faith and fortitude through the righteousness of Christ, the risen LORD. I intended to ask a simple question, but was impressed to post all the above first. I wanted to ask: How does a person have true morals if their system of beliefs is based on false information? [This message has been edited by nfektious (edited May 19, 2006).] |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
Like Warsong is so fond of saying, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. It seems to me that the only intentions that we can know for certain won't go awry and cause pain nad suffering are perfect intentions, and the only perfect intentions are those that are in direct line with God's intentions. Similarly it seems like the only morals that can be called true morals are perfect morals, those that coincide with God and His set of morals. I base this conjecture off of these two verses. Joh 8:44 And Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If Satan is the father of lies, and Jesus (and therefore God, since they are one) is THE truth, then anything that is a lie (not true) would lead to destruction, death, and pain. Therefore, unless a set of morals is perfectly true (a feat only accomplishable by is being based on God himself, who is THE truth) then however good it was it would still contain lies, and therefore cause hurt and sin. Therefore, drawing from this, my answer would be no, you can't have true morals without God, and even with God it takes a constant connection with God's morals and renewing of your mind to be Christlike and therefore maintain that system of true morality. That's just my take on the subject, what do you think? ------------------ "I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind |
luke Member Posts: 311 From: I use your computer as my second Linux box Registered: 10-30-2005 |
By morals I mean 'good behavior' It won't get my friends into Heaven, but if your take the (probably false) Dante version of Hell; they will be on a better level then say a nonbeliever murderer.... but since God equates a lie with murder with bad thoughts, it doesn't matter beyond this life... Well Mormanism is still false, im just praising their comparitively high public morals.... I don't have a clue what they do in those temples, probably nothing good, but as far as the public is concerned I think that Mormans have 'good' morals.. ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
So why are you only trying to get them to a "better" level? ------------------ "I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind |
Tonnyx Member Posts: 140 From: Indiana, USA Registered: 08-02-2005 |
quote: Rom 1:20 says, "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Rom 2:14 says, "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law...." I'm interpreting "true" morals as things we would agree with, e.g., not lying, not stealing, etc. As opposed to a set of morals that think that adultery is good, lying is okay, etc. Since we are human, we are all created in God's image, albeit a defaced image, and it seems that these things are written in people's hearts. An interesting related topic to note is the doctrine of total depravity. I'm loosely quoting from a systematic theology I was reading a few weeks ago: total depravity does not mean that everyone is *as corrupt* as they could be -- we are not all literal murderers, thieves, adulterers, etc.; total depravity means that everyone the corruption extends to every part of a person's being. Emotions, intellect, desires, etc., are all corrupted by sin. ------------------ |
Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
One of the great differences between Christianity and all other religions is that Christianity is not fundamentally about a moral code, or ethical behavior, it is about Jesus Christ. Don't get me wrong, the morals, the ethics, the obedience are all necessary and true parts of the religion, but at the center its not about a moral teaching, its about having the life of Christ within you. If you take Christ out of christianity you might as well have budhism, or islam, or judaism, or hinduism because they all teach ehtical behavior and codes of morality. Christianity teaches Christ. ------------------ |
luke Member Posts: 311 From: I use your computer as my second Linux box Registered: 10-30-2005 |
^What Simon Said^ Morals w/o Christ = nothing... Christ w/o morals = enough Christ w/ Morals = preferable. ------------------ |
CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
nfektious, I don't see many of your posts but they are always full of wisdom. To all: Why do you believe in a vengeful God? "Getting even" is a problem for people and animals with easily hurt feelings. |
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I didn’t want to reply but o well. Nfektious Simon you said Luke Muslim Europe will not be like current Europe, it will be a 3d world country. Look at many places Muslims have taken over that use to be non Muslim and now the country looks like a war zone. The places that do look fine is because of a lot of non Muslim blind Christian and secular aid went to help them and build it. As for Europe being run by Muslim or secular views that Christian views is insane. If you feel that Christianity is the best religion then you should want that to spread and not be taken away by people that use the system to spread their evil ways. Just because Europe has been influenced with liberal views to bring more Muslims doesn’t mean that is a good thing. Maybe some should go to a monastery and see how things run. cheese ------------------ [This message has been edited by warsong (edited May 19, 2006).] |
CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
I was talking about your God, since Hell is eternal punishment, so God gets even. So why does he need to? |
Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
warsong, its true that there are fundamental differences between the moral teachings of Christianity and the other religions which do necessarily produce different results. What I was referring to is that on the surface they are very similar. Budhism teaches selfless compassion for all mankind, Islam has virtually an identical moral code because its based on the same ten commandments etc. Judaism, of course is the closest of all having almost no difference morally. Cheesestorm, God is not vengeful in character, because his vengance is tempered by mercy, love, and justice. God does, however, take vengance. We often equate vengence with 'getting even' which is not particularly just, but primarily selfish in nature.. ie I'm going to hurt you, because you hurt me. God's vengance is not like this. It is not about getting even, or selfish retaliation, but about giving people what they have earned. It is justice. One of the promises of scripture is that when Jesus returns he will "trouble" the people who have "troubled" his people. In otherwords, those who have persecuted God's people will recieve in like kind, what they dished out. This is not because God has a burning desire to hurt people who hurt him, but rather because God's nature is to render unto everyone, what they have earned, especially judged by what they have done to others. God's vengance is not emotional in the sense that we think of it. The bible says "God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked but would rather that they repent and come to righteousness" (paraphrased). This is one reason I'm of the opinion that many christians who take pleasure in condeming even the wicked, and are gleeful in pronouncing God's hatred on people (according to their view) are probably in for a rude suprise. It is likely that they will find God renders unto them what they desired for others.
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nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
On the Talmud: When abused - that is, used for what it is not intended - yes, it can lead people away from what it was meant for...like anything else abused. Think about it. I mean, really...why would an Arab care about a bunch of writings and commentary by Jews, much less build a religion practically plagiarizing it? How much nonsense has to be piled up for people to see it? Even more, how much fact? Sigh. "It's the end of the world as we know it, and I feel fine." Shame, shame. [This message has been edited by nfektious (edited May 19, 2006).] |
Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
I don't believe that Islam will be the "big bad guy" at the end of the world as we know it, simply because I believe Islam will be severely put down by major military defeats prior to that time. I believe the crisis with Islam will infact be the catalyst that begins the end game scenario, but Islam itself will be severely diminished.
The theosophists and the current new agers who descend from them view Judaism and traditional christianity as obstacles to world peace and the advancement of mankind into the next golden age... yet they have never really had a problem with Islam. I believe that the islamic nations will usher in the end game by starting a massive war with Israel in which they will be severely defeated. At that point Islam will become yet another part of a global new age humanistic religion proposed by the UN or whatever successor to the UN holds sway at that time. ------------------ |
CapnStank Member Posts: 214 From: Sask, Canada Registered: 12-16-2004 |
So are you saying that Islam will sort of be the Austria (WWI Reference, I think it was them) of the "end game scenario?" That technically they won't end it, but others will use their excuse to rage war on others. Sort of how Germany went for France using the Austrian incident as an excuse. See the problem I have with many wars is that countries stick their noses in where they don't belong, hence WWI. If there is a massive Islamic war I wouldn't doubt that major powers take sides and it escalades into something much worse. ------------------ |
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Simon Obviously the others are different but to say Judaism is close to it morally would be a far distance second and it is more similar to the Muslim than Christian. Cheesestorm asked about vengeance and you obviously know that both Muslim and Jewish religion are similar in that moral issue, and a big list of other things which shows how similar they are but the protestant sects to wan t to mix that opposite religion as the same which only brings problems and they don’t want to see the vast differences. Judaism’s view of morals and justice are different and anyone else that says otherwise is trying to sell you their religion. This is what happened when church fathers get pushed aside for people’s opinions swayed by political interests. You can find similar in everything but the big thing is the differences. Some might say people are people and that gay should marry since men and women are the same, then they will keep denying the truth till they say mammals are all the same, as one article I posted once how a Jewish woman married a dolphin. In other words we have to look at it as a whole and not just one side. In your comment when you talk about Gods people, who are gods people? I hope you answer that everyone is. But your answer was good Also the people that condemn others are the ones that help hurt Christianity and push people away from it just like the protestant and Catholic Church have done for centuries. Also the facts that some people confuse condemn with judge or preach which tries to prevent Christians from explaining what is improper. We can’t be the nail in the coffin of where someone will go but we have to point out what they are doing so that we help them go to the right place but if they don’t do what is right then that is their choice. Nfektious To continue what ereon said which he excluded which some could misinterpret and not see it for what it is. In the end all christians are “Heretics” and Anti semitic (well the muslims are more semitic now lol)in the eyes of those 2 religions. The big religions that do not have a big problem with Christians seem to be Hinduism and Buddhism, even though they have a problem with Catholicism and the Protestant sects since they tried to force them to convert and did bad unchristian things to them. ------------------ |
CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
It's just ridiculous. If they had nukes, they'd use them on us in an instant. They should thank Allah that we haven't decided to wipe them all out in a single afternoon. |
webmaster Member Posts: 28 From: West Virginia, USA Registered: 04-05-2006 |
quote: Romans 12 says "Vengence is mine, sayth the Lord, I shall repay" ... I get your point though. ------------------ If practice makes perfect, and no one is perfect, then why practice? -Yours Truely |
nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
quote: Warsong, either I misunderstood you or you said something to the effect that I think Islam is a peaceful religion? I do not think Islam is a peaceful religion. I think Islam is a farce...a scam...if any religion in the world is a fake, it is Islam. Think about it. A so-called deity, manufactured by a so-called prophet, called by one name but based completely on a god from another religion...so-called scriptures and prophecies and such based on that of another religion (and that being of Islam's eternal nemesis, none other than Judaism, present in the knowledge of the world for several thousand years at the time Muhammad penned his al-Qur'an)...Islamic extremists and "pacifists" alike herald their existence and history above that of a civilization that has been in Jerusalem for centuries preceding their own claims...it is all so matter-of-fact to them, despite the truth, that it is scary to even fathom how much power these people have in the world today. [This message has been edited by nfektious (edited May 20, 2006).] |
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Nfektious I was just saying that the thing you said about Jews is what the Muslims say as well since the Muslims say we misinterpreted and the Jews say we misinterpreted, but both of their actions and what their leaders say is the same negative actions. Muslims and Jewish heroes are warlike, and they want a warlike god. Mohamed lied, forced conversion or killed non Muslims, had many wives, use terrorist actions, etc, which some consider him holy or many don’t know about the history since the religion is fanatical. The same with the Jewish religion how they didn’t want Christ since they wanted Christ to start a war and kill all non Jews since they want to be the only people to go to heaven and resent Christ as a heretic and find anyone that follows him as a heretic. Famous Jewish heroes like David, Solomon, etc killed their people and best friends for power to take their wives as their own, killed others different form them etc. The old and new testament is full of examples and so is history. Muslims power is in numbers and they make money working with their cousins (Jewish) as they call them. They have a sibling rivalry but most work together despite popular belief. They are not each others worst enemy since Christians are since there are more Christians than Muslims and Jews.
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Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
quote: David did do wrong and commited adultry, then had the womans husband killed. But he wasn't regarded as great for that. This is what God had to say about David, "He is a man after my own heart." David repented and God forgave him. But there were still many tragedies that occured because of David's sin. But when it is all said and done, David is more than a Jewish hero. He is a real hero of the faith, mentioned in Hebrews 11. Was Solomon a violent king? I think God didn't allow David to build His temple because of all the blood that he had spilled in his life, but Solomon was allowed to.
[This message has been edited by brandon (edited May 21, 2006).] |
RA Games Member Posts: 93 From: Sacramento, Ca., USA Registered: 05-22-2006 |
The big difference between the holy koran and the Holy Bible, is that at least in the bible, the Jews like David knew WHO to attack. Therefore the bible is just a historical reference. Not so with the Koran. When it talks of violence, then you do not know WHO it is talking about. Look at the verses below for example. "The believers who stay at home––apart from those that suffer a grave impediment––are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..." (Koran 4:95,96) "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. ... lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way ..." (Koran 9:5) ------------------------------------------------ Well, with generic terms like THEY, US and THEM, this world is going to hell faster than satan wanted, huh? lol ------------------ |
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But both have changed in some ways but generally the same. Even a Jewish Rabbi admitted that the Koran and Judaism are similar but that one is more extreme. At least with Muslims you can convert to be a Muslim, to be Jewish you have to marry one. Muslims say they believe in Christ, Judaism find Christ a heretic and everyone that follows. But we have to be Politically Correct and say that the bad is good, and that the good is bad. Brandon Ra gamer ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
Warsong, is it not also true that many pastors and priests have admitted that the Koran and the Bible are similar? On your statement to Brandom, may I ask why you choose to take the Greeks, who were pagans and idoliters, and place them above the Jews, who worshipped the one true God? It seems odd to me that you would look down so much on those who were God's chosen people, and whose violences and combat were the result of God's own orders given through His prophets and by Himself? It just seems like a rather odd outlook to me. ------------------ "I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind |
RA Games Member Posts: 93 From: Sacramento, Ca., USA Registered: 05-22-2006 |
Of course the bible and the koran are similiar. Just read the Koran below for proof: ---------------------------------
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Why do you ask questions that you can answers yourself of have already been answered? Anyway... The ones that admit that are similar are not looking at it as a whole. As for your comment about Greeks and Jews I answered that in the religious forum and before. As for your other comment some would consider it blasphemous. Jews are not chosen and have not been seen that way thought out most of Christianity but lately in the liberal form of it. The protestant sect mostly sees it that way which is why they keep distorting thing allow gay and women priests, ignore saints, has many false doctrine, etc. People may say they are not protestant but their actions say more than a label. They mix Christianity with Judaism and they wonder why it doesn’t work. The Orthodox Church makes a clear claim that the baptized are the people of God. Christ made a new covenant which many ignore. What better way to attack Christianity than to Paris the people that attack it. If they are chosen then we should go to the synagogues (synagogue of the Satan Rev2:9 but some translate it to adversary which is a distortion) basically a separation from church and synagogue. Maybe people misinterpret what they were chosen for. “Christ shall be slain, and the people who shall deny Him shall not be His.”Daniel 9: 26” “Be it known to you, therefore, that this salvation of God is sent to the Gentiles.”Acts 28:28 “If God were your father, you would love me… You are of your father, the devil… because I tell the truth, you don't believe me”john8 Real Christians are Gods chosen people, so let’s not be PC to say otherwise and make a big issue of it. As Christ said “No man cometh to the Father but by me.”And that includes Jews and non Jews, and no one is greater but god only. ------------------ |
CoolJ Member Posts: 354 From: ny Registered: 07-11-2004 |
quote: but if you change your mind or want to no longer be a muslim what happens to you not so nice.
quote: This is incorrect. You can convert to Judaism. Likewise, if your mother is Jewish, you are born Jewish. |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
It seems to me that those who admit that they are similar are those that look at it as whole, and choose to stay that way, without looking at the "small" but vitally important differences between them, what do you think? I 'm not taking these things from some "view", I'm taking them from the Bible. God calls himself the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob again and again in the Old Testament, He refers to the Jews again and again as His people and himself as their God. However, I do no see anywhere that He called Himself the God of Alexander, Aristotle, and Plato..... As for my words being blasphemous the only thing I truly care about is what God thinks of them, his opinion is alot more important to me than what "some people" may think about them. As for the Jews, I agree with you explicitly that a very large majority of Jews are not Christians, and that noone is greater but God, however there are many of Jewish descent that ARE Christians. But, if the Jews, because of actions of those of the past, are competely to be held as evil or perverse, them why all the prophecies in the Old Testament about God gathering his people (meaning the Jews) back to himself? Prophecies that were made after any Biblical or historical events that could have been such a gathering, and as such have yet to be fulfilled. To lay it all out flat I find it odd that you would hold so much stock in Greek traditions, and Greek ways, and the traditions and ways of the past, and choose to set these priorities off of no scriptural background, and hold them to be of such importance that you fiercely defend them with superhuman knowledge that all of us are apparently supposed to know but are totally ignorant of. And many times you do not give an explanation, you simply jump out at say something to the equivilant of "you stupid idiot, you're destroying Christianity and you don't even know it". Whenever we talk I attempt, to the best of my ability, to answer all your points, and it feels like you answer by putting up a smoke screen on certain things and then throwing in several more points to compensate. You throw these things out as indisputable law, and yet offer no explanations for why you think that, or, more importantly, why WE should think that. Frankly, there are very few people I trust enough to take their word solely on the fact that they say it, and none of those are less than 19 years older than me and none of them are online relationships. It's just I'm getting weary of arguments that spiral on and on and on, and change shape everytime one of us posts. ------------------ "I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind [This message has been edited by Ereon (edited June 01, 2006).] |
RA Games Member Posts: 93 From: Sacramento, Ca., USA Registered: 05-22-2006 |
Warsong --------------------------------- "As Christ said out with the old in with the new, so let’s not go with what the Koran and the OT say" --------------------------------- How can the OT and Koran be compared? The Koran was written about 600 AD or 600 years after Christ, but not so with the OT. Therefore the Koran can be consider another gospel with the latter over-ruling the former? Consider the Korans words below of hostility towards Jews and Christians. The Quran, Sura 9:28-31 It plainly tells them to FIGHT us. Click on the link below to read Mr Mohammad's words of islamic wisdom of both prayer and of the Koran. http://www.christiansongwriting.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=208 ------------------ |
Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
quote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought it was more like they wanted the Messiah to free them from the Roman Empire? That probably would have some killing to it. Also, I'm aware that there were people who chose to do evil in the Jewish culture just as there in any culture. And that they could be the people that you are talking about. But there are also Godly Jewish men, women, boys, and girls, from the past, present and future, that have and will continue to do mighty things for the Kingdom of God. Actually there is a pretty good book written by a Jewish Christian named "I Have a Friend Who's Jewish... Do You?", it's here: http://www.prophecyrevealed.com/page1.html The entire book is online there, it's really good ------------------ |
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Coolj Yeah I agree about the Muslim part you said but the Jewish part is not true which many Jews in person say and Jewish information site says. Still a Jew that converts out of Judaism is seen as a heretic and ignored to be not treated as kindly. The ones that say it’s ok to convert they are not considered that Jewish, which many people have a misconception about it. Ereon As another site says I know Jews that converted to Christianity, many for wrong reasons and few for right ones. The OT also says that their messiah when he comes will live with them, and Christ said that their father is not God but you know who in what he said. But this is not our concern to deal with them, but we should not encourage their anti Christian actions as many Christians do. Also if you complain so much you can also look for the information yourself and not look for one sided views. Always look for opposing views to see the other side and not only your side. You did not even try to look at things it seems since you ask the same obvious questions and you want me to answer you in different ways it seems. You don’t want to look for yourself then what else can I tell you. I gave you plenty of links that answer your questions and you come straight to me to object and want proof when you have it. Its like I give you a book if you want to know about something and you don’t bother to look and ask me all the time to point things out in the book and then complain to me that I dont have time to look for you, which is not right to do that all the time and kind of rude of you.
Brandon ------------------ [This message has been edited by warsong (edited June 02, 2006).] |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
On John 12:20: The word used for Greeks in that verse also means Gentiles or just "ones who speak Greek". It's the same word used for Gentile all over the New Testament. So, these may or may not have been Greeks, they may have only been people who spoke Greek, or they may have simply been Gentiles, just like the other Gentiles throughout the New Testament. And if my computer Bible serves me right then the Bible also says this. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Apparently the Greeks (or Gentiles) and the Jews are simply human names pasted on what we all are, Christians. Why glory in the title of Orthodox or Catholic, or Medodist, or Baptist, and of these things that are man's titles for seperating what we all are, Christians. The only reason I ask the questions that to you are so obvious, is that I do not know the answers, and the reason I often do not take the links that you give me as infallible answers, is that they are very often based off of man's words, and tend to be biased highly in favour of your arguments. In addition, upon searching, it is equally easy to find just as many words of men AGAINST those arguments. Frankly I want what God holds to be true, not just what someone tells me to be true. So, if I may suggest, let's throw of all this Othodox/Protestant junk, and be what we would be in the first place if it weren't for these paper labels we slap on ourselves and each other, Christian, brothers and sisters in Christ, one. ------------------ "I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind |
nfektious Member Posts: 408 From: Registered: 10-25-2002 |
If there is any simple method of discerning who is of God and who is not, it can be put in these words, written in 1 John chapter 3, verse 10: "This is how God's children--and the Devil's children--are made evident. Whoever does not do what is right is not of God, especially the one who does not love his brother." (from The Holman Christian Standard Bible) Unfortunately, too often, we - human beings - tend to make things more complicated than they need to be or were ever intended. (Look at how God's laws have been interpreted since the days of Moses.) The New Covenant (as it should be called, instead of Testament) is what brought all of mankind into a place of having a relationship with God. Yes, most of the Jews failed in understanding their role as God's witnesses to the rest of mankind. However, the entirety of scripture is about God's love for us - regardless of race, sex, national origin, etc. God continued to love the Jews even after they continually rejected him - and God still loves them to this day. Another example of this can be found in the story of Jonah with the people of Nineveh - a group of people living in complete lawlessness with extreme disrespect for anyone and anything, worshipping the worst god they could be worshipping. Yet God wanted to have a relationship with them and wanted them to know about Him, that they would turn away from their wickedness and destruction. If God were to stop loving any people, what does that say about God, since God is love? God does not change; we are the ones who change. |
CoolJ Member Posts: 354 From: ny Registered: 07-11-2004 |
quote: RIGHT ON!!! What's God's definition of a good religious group? James 1:27 "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." Wow pretty simple, I strongly feel this is about as much religion as the early Church had, and surprisingly it was the most 'pure'. Can we really better it with required rituals, customs, and laws? |
CoolJ Member Posts: 354 From: ny Registered: 07-11-2004 |
quote: What Jewish Site? Orthodox and Reformed Jewish belief is that you can convert to Judaism. There are different requirements (much like Orthodox Christian vs. Catholic) Unless you can give me a source, your view seems to be the exception and false. For sources pro-Jewish Conversion, just do a search or read history or modern day Jewish beliefs. I would recommend a good book 4 u: 'To Be a Jew' You seem to enjoy reading, I know you will enjoy reading this book, it gives you a good look at Jewish belief from a Jewish perspective, not a hate biased perspective like a lot of anti-Jewish websites and books would. Would you be surprised to learn that conversion to Judaism takes a similar process to conversion to Orthodox Christianity? no way!! |
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"In this age of ecumenism, one is hard-pressed to argue with the "givens" of the religious world: "We all have the same God," or "All religions are good and are equal." If we apply these notions to science, it is immediately apparent that they are absurd: All observations are valid and equal," or "Alchemy and chemistry are both sciences and are equal." Non orthodox sects put their own interpretation because of their lack of understanding, mix it with their own culture views which contradict, self interests, and other misguided methods. The orthodox church's language is the only one to have the official and original inspired words of God. Orthodoxy” accepts the Septuagint as the sacred and inspired Word of God. This version of the Bible circulated in the synagogues around the Mediterranean world where Christianity flourished." http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/scripturesinthechurch.htm "JESUS FELT THE GREEK INFLUENCE" and to take away credit where credit is due is not right. The link explains John 12:20-23 it was not in the general gentile language that it took off and the inspired word of God is still not translated well which is why to know it best you have to read it how it is originally since many words that they have has been narrowed down to 1 word to sum it up which distorts the meaning and if it did not then we would not have so many bible versions with different interpretations. "The stricture against joint prayer with heretics is that such prayer falsely legitimizes their prayer, it raises their heresy—which is an attack on Christ's Church—to a level of perceived equality with Orthodox Christianity." "The most famous name in Jewish allegorical thought is Philo, the son of a wealthy Alexandrian merchant, who lived from about 20 B.C. to about A.D. 50. A man of great erudition, Philo mentions sixty-four Greek writers, including Homer, Hesiod, Pindar, Solon, the tragedians, and Plato. To Philo, these Greeks were not heathen. They were men of God, on a par with Israel's prophets" You can not deny that that the Orthodox Greeks did a lot of the work to spread Christ’s words in their language and transform their entire nation into the only Christian nation which inspired the eastern European to be Orthodox and other. Other sects can not do the same and place their cultural view and their lack of knowledge of the language to not show or act out the true word of god. The church should be one Christ said and to watch out for false doctrine including sects, since they make their own rules than remain with the original church. You have to look at the facts and see them add up. If you see a car accident, and the next day on the news it says no car accident then you have to add up everything to make your decision. The facts I have shown back the information up which you persist to say there is no car accident. ------ So to say that the part means gentile then it would say it, but it did mention they were Greeks. It is simple things like that that people translate differently. Next thing they will say that good means bad, or day means night, since Greek doesn’t equal Greek. It says gentile 99 times in the NT and Greek around 25. So they were not afraid to use the word gentile or that they didn’t have a word for it so that’s not the excuse. If it was not for them we would be Muslim or Jewish and we would values non Christian ideologies, but people want to stick with the very far second option go outside of Gods chosen words. But thats my opinion. "in either the Hebrew or the Greek, there is NO word equivalent to today's English language term "gentiles" (or "gentile")." "Actually, it depends on your frame of reference. It is all dependent upon what anyone has been "indoctrinated" to believe!" What the other sects have done to the Orthodox church and its people and to other non Christians and Christians make Islam look peaceful, so as (1 John 3:15) says “no Christian can be a murderer” hence they are false doctrines and such not Christian by spirit but by name. So you say a Jew is anti Jewish when they say that? I can not remember every news site and Jewish person that says it. Many types of Jews and the more liberal types allow conversions and the more strict ones do not. No real blood line and you know a Semite has dark skin and not how Da Vinci paints Christ to be with white skin and blond hair. Its ok to disagree with a view/ideology, but many confuse the ideology with people and embrace and endorse the wrong ideology to grow. Nfektious ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
Ok Warsong, only one question this time . What are the fruits of the modern Orthodox Church? ------------------ "I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind |
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You replied too fast which shows you didn't read it fully to think about it. As for your question I will be just as cheap as tell you to ask any Orthodox priest. ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
If you could ask one for me and relay the answer that would be great I actually did read your post twice and prayed over it, I'm just a really fast reader, and I read it just a few minutes after you posted it. I don't think there are any Orthodox churchs in my town, so that's why I was asking you about the subject.(It's a REALLY small town). ------------------ "I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind [This message has been edited by Ereon (edited June 06, 2006).] |
CoolJ Member Posts: 354 From: ny Registered: 07-11-2004 |
quote: No, I'm saying that what you made as a blanket statement about the Jewish religion I can only find from one anti-Jewish and one pro-Islamic writer(not much of a surprise, you can see why they would tell their followers this). If you have a reference to even ONE source, I would be interested. As you know, there is A LOT of stereotypes, misinformation and ignorance( and pure hatred toward Jews as the Bible prophesied). This doesn't sound like a big deal, but if you add this with all the other stereotypes, you can see how this hatred is spread. As far as I can tell Orthodox, Conservative, and Reformed (definitely not just liberal) all offer paths for converts. |