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Are you a Spiritual man or a Economic man? – warsong




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Spiritual man This is an interesting thing someone sent me.

"It is truly to be regretted that so many of today's church leaders -- in their desire to be "mainstream" -- have rejected the masculine Christianity of the past in favor of the ultimately self-destructive feminine Christianity so commonly seen today."

"Now it is an accepted commonplace among some of the more profound thinkers, philosophers, and scholiasts on the human condition, that there have always been -- and will always be -- two kinds of men comprising that small percentage of individuals who've shaped history: the first being the "spiritual" man; the second being the "economic" man. The first, the spiritual man, is characterized by the explorer, the conqueror, the warrior, the poet, the priest and the monk. The second, the economic man, by the merchant, the politician, the money-changer, the atheist, and the bureaucrat. Spiritual man has been the builder of civilizations, the dreamer of dreams, the spiritual visionary, and the conqueror of empires: the man who lives for ideas. Economic man usually appears on the scene after the fact, and slowly wrests the levers of power away from spiritual man after the hard work of nation and culture building has been done.

Well, the answer lies in the replacement of spiritual man's aristocratic values, which foster honor, ambition, discipline, and self-control, with economic man's democratic and feminine values, which foster safety, comfort, security and the home.

This move from a masculine idealism to a feminine materialism leads inevitably to hedonism and self-absorbed egoism. The young -- both male and female -- put self-gratification as their most important goal in life, and it is this urge to satisfy the senses that economic man exploits and encourages. In the case of the male, it is not the acquisition of honor, glory or esteem that is encouraged; what is touted as most important is indulging in whatever happens to satisfy one physically and emotionally: if it feels good, do it; if it's something that discomforts you, avoid it. Honor, glory, and self-control are not encouraged by economic man because there is no money to be made from such things in his world, and money, as a means to power, is what counts for him.

As the merchant mentality dominates, and economic man gains more and more power, the opposing ideology of spiritual man is ridiculed, distorted, and marginalized. Manliness, the sacredness of marriage, the idealization and protection of inviolate womanhood, the importance of religious belief, of race, heritage, and tradition, and other such values of spiritual man are scorned."

"Preserve the natural!" The acorn may most certainly be observed, commented upon, ridiculed or revered; but it must be allowed to become an oak tree."

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)
"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
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Realm Master

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Honor? Glory? I dream all the time about being a hero (fat chance being a nerd and all!) I don't care 'bout phisiccal crap. I WANNA BE A HERO! (TO THE MARINES!!!)

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yeah, im a little crazy

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bennythebear

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from what i understand of your post i agree with most of what you said warsong(that's unusual ). mainly men should be men, and women should be women. neither is more important, holy, or "better" than the other, but two very different roles in God's plan.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

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Dyreck

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And for all you ladies out there who think that this means that you have to saty home and mind the house like a good little house wife while the Big Strong Man is out having an adventure, who do you think He would want most to be there with him? That's right YOU!

This passage very much speaks to men but lets not forget to make prefectly clear that FEMINIE VALUES ARE NOT BAD, but then again I'm not entirely sure what is meant by feminine values. I guess the point is that it's not good for men to abandon core masculinity for femininity

I highly recomend reading "Wild at Heart" by John Eldredge. It talks about something similar to this. I would give a summery but I'm not very good at that kinda thing.

Ereon

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Realm, if I may suggest, don't join the Marines to become a hero. You don't become a hero by killing someone else, even in the very unlikely events of self defense of defense of others. It's just a bad idea unless you really know that its what you are meant to do. I'd rather know the pains, risks and worst of what could or will happen in such a situation and then, if nessecessary do it, knowing full well what awaits me and being prepared to do my duty instead of rushing into something with the idea of being a hero and then wasting my time, energy, and life in something that I got myself into out of ignorance or self disillusion.

Warsong, an interesting article. There have been people who fit into the "spiritual" layout (explorer, philosopher, warrior, ect.) and have still been evil and done a great deal of harm, and there have also been those who were merchants, politicians and atheists who have done great deal good. You can't flat out generalize the two, both are important. A dream without means to complete it is useless (Where would Columbus have been without Queen Isabella?), and a means without a pure and wholesome dream is destructive and usually ill spent. At the same time if the dream is bad then its being a dream does little to make it any better, just as someone being a "warrior" or a "knight" does not make them honorable or brave. Dreams and means to accomplish those dreams belong together, the dream needs a means to come into being, and the means need a dream to be effective and have direction. At the same time though the dream most be wholesome and pure (The only true source of things truly wholesome and pure being God) or else it will only result in desctruction. Just because something is "spiritual" does not make it good. That's why the Bible says this.

Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. Psalm 37:5

Commit your dreams to God, make sure they're pleasing to Him, and at the same time trust in Him, and He'll provide you the means to accomplish those dreams and fulfill your needs. Once again, I agree with the gist of the article and found it very interesting, but you can't completely generalize everything that it says.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind




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Very political since economic man runs it while spiritual man dies for him. As you see that is not the right. The article also stated which I did not quote about how Alexander the great was in the battle field with his men which you would not see the commander and chief (president) do it. Alexander shows the scars on his chest and not on his back he says since he didn’t cower away to get any on the back.


ereon
This article was much longer which was talking about something else but I only highlighted the established notion of spiritual and economic man.

Obviously you do not generalize everything and that goes for saying as well since some people distort them. For example the saying that goes something like "the one that makes you happy is not for your good, while the one that makes you sad is" Now you can distort that saying a lot but only a distorted person will find it wrong since they will only think negative thoughts. Of another example

"do to others what you want others to do to you" for most of history protestants and Catholics took that the wrong way and since they thought it means an eye for an eye in a way.

As I stated to realm master that back then financers were spiritual men more like Alexander the great which has spiritual man working with spiritual man for everyone to benefit. Now it is spiritual man working and dieing for economic man when only economic man benefits. Another example it gave that I did not say was how the titanic the men were spiritual men but their were a few economic men that dressed up like women to take up the place where the woman would be and how people like our presidents now would most likely fit that description to escape with women.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)
"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
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Max

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ereon:
(Where would Columbus have been without Queen Isabella?)

Hehe, funny way to put it.

Don't diss the Marines, every Marine knows why he is doing what he is. He doesn't join up to kill people. The person saying to not make generalizations, just made a generalization. If there isn't honor in defending your country, and fighting for what is right, then where is honor at all? Besides, if everyone followed your advice, then we'd have no army, and we would have been taken over by someone else, and not have the freedoms we do now. I'd say every Marine is a hero.

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

Ereon

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To max: I do not wish to diss the Marines, or any armed force, I simply do not wish to join them. Firstly, to do so would be to voluntarily place myself under someone else's authority, and not have any say in what that authority told me to do or not do during whatever enlistment period I signed up for, no matter what my authority asked me to do I would have to do it, and if my authority told me to slaughter innocents, or do something that might result in the slaughter of innocents or of my companions I would have to do it, even if it meant innocent people dying by my hand or direct actions. I respect soldiers and what they do for out country, and I respect the choice they've made, to potentially do such things and pay such prices, but unless I am called upon (a draft or some other eventuality) to enter that position I do not wish to do so voluntarily. Secondly, the Marines are those that are expected to do the most with the least. Historically they are the ones who are put in the near impossible situations when ill equipped with the least likely and/or effective backup, and are the ones who usually end up having to make it happen in the most hostile and impossible of situations. That is part of their appeal, and what makes their reputation, but that is also part of the price that is payed if someone chooses to join them.


I have to go help my Dad on the care, be back to finish this later.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

Max

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sorry, didn't mean to flame so much.

I guess it all boils down to personal opinion, eh?

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

Ereon

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From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
No problem, my skin can always use a little more fireproofing , and I guess you're right, its up to the person to decide, its just a potentially compromising and destructive position that I'd rather not put myself into without a great deal of consideration.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind




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Max you say
"If there isn't honor in defending your country, and fighting for what is right, then where is honor at all?"

lol that is funny, honestly that is. When was the last time they defended, and how many times have they invaded? Even a US government official has said something like this is not a democracy this is an imperial empire and anyone who says other side is fooling themselves.

To defend you have to be at your boarders and not put bases all over the world. If the US took on another country that acted like it then there would be a war since we don’t expect another country to put a military base in the US. Wars make money and every president will make a war weather we like it or not.

Even the examples that I posted before about Kosovo how the US invaded and attacked the rightful Christian owners of the land to let the invading terrorist Muslims in was bad. As Pat Buchanan said the US should keep out of others business since the only reason they help is for self interests than to defend or help others. Political marketing works well to persuade people to do things that are wrong and unchristian as the other post about marketing stated. lol

Also no honor in being a soldier in today’s society and it shows in the way they train people, since they break them down to the point of to have no will and become yes men. That does not happen as much in other countries since they don’t want to make mindless killing machines that will kill innocent without having remorse or a Christian mentality. Ever hear about how when the put US soldiers as temporary police in a state in how the killed innocent people since they were paranoid without thinking about it?

If people want to their defend country then maybe they should be part of the "coast guard" (guard = defend) since it seems to be more of a "spiritual man" theme. If people want to invade and help put military bases in other counties then join the regular "army" since the entire system of it had become an "economic man" theme.

Hope that cleared things up.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)
"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
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Ereon

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Lol, and you use Alexander the Great as an example of a "spiritual" man......

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

CoolJ

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I was wondering whatever became of these kids - warsong was that you?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,148364,00.html

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
When was the last time they defended, and how many times have they invaded?


Are you kidding? they defend us EVERY FREAKIN DAY, when they FAIL TO DEFEND, that's when you'll know! And you better hope that's not in your lifetime. And btw its probably safe to move to Canada, because if the time comes, our military men and women will defend them too.

Heroes? you bet!
Deserve a Heroes welcome? you bet!
Deserve respect? you bet!
Even if you call them broken feminine 'yes' men, will they still defend you and your family and even die for your freedom to say it? you bet! ....but I wouldn't advice saying it to their face.

Does that mean you don't agree with The Right Brothers either?

[This message has been edited by coolj (edited May 14, 2006).]




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Why not Alexander? I think you don’t know your history well and you listen to propaganda like the movie industry which BS with other films like the Da Vici code. There is a reason why the “economic man” is attack and distorting the “spiritual man” so that the economic man can look good since it believes that the ends justify the means than the means justify the ends.

Coolj
lol funny link.
No are you kidding. You do not seem to understand the word defend and attack. Honestly dude you should read more international news and history to know what goes on. Only a fool will attack the US and no one can invade it. The only way to take control is within, just like a virus taking down a big elephant since it has no enemies. Metaphors they are all over the bible, maybe you should pick it up and see some. Rome said the same thing while conquering and imposing laws on others.

Since you think all wars for the US are for “defense” let’s take Serbia for example in how the US bombed them. Are they heroes to bomb a sovereign Christian nation? NO If the world could vote in a “real democracy” would they say it was not right? YES they would.
As for female soldiers lol that’s a joke which the 2 conservatives Ann Coulter and Phyllis Schlafly have pointed out.
Thanks for being an example of how propaganda influences people. Remember it works best when people think it doesn’t know. You know kind of like how the best trick the devil has it to show that he doesn’t exist and the atheists make that mistake.

I had a professor that didn’t agree with me, I gave him a book with news articles about the US and after a week he was surprised and said thank you for the information and changed his view after that. If a professor that knows more can not beat me and they changed their minds on these issues, then how can an amateur with less firepower win?
The answer is your can’t, so the best things to do is to just ask questions.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)
"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodox Info

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
*Ereon shakes his head*
Oy, come ON!

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
If a professor that knows more can not beat me and they changed their minds on these issues, then how can an amateur with less firepower win?
The answer is your can’t, so the best things to do is to just ask questions.


First, I try not to place power-hungry conquerers who had no reason to attack, much less conquer, other nations other than wealth, power, and pleasure under my list of positive role-models. I also do not watch very much TV at all, and rarely, if ever watch any movies other than Lord of the Rings, Chronicles of Narnia, ect. You wish to talk about the means justifying the end? What means did Alexander apply to gain his empire? Slaughter, terrorism, intimidation, mass murder, and the end, to give HIMSELF (him being the only one who would have ruled) a fancy new "toy" to play with that far extended beyond the borders of his own native country through the forceful "assimilation" of thousands if not millions of innocents. If the means justify the end then Alexander's means certainly do justify his ends for what they were, unadultered, cruel tyranny. His only advantage was that he was the one who simply happened to win, and therefore he got to write the history books.

On your answer to Coolj, first, the world is full of fools (exhibit A....9-11) second, if there are metaphors all over the Bible then please post them, so that we can better understand your position. Third, I agree with you that our nation, more often than not, tends to stick its nose where it doesn't belong, but that does not give you the right to be arrogant or to suggest that you are somehow more intelligent and enlightened than the rest of us. The fact that you convinced a professor of something by giving him and book does not make you any more eligible to make those claims. I've heard accounts from several atheists saying the same thing about atheism, does it make them any more right?

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited May 15, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited May 15, 2006).]




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Ereon You are out of your league.

Honestly you should know your history better since you are way off. This is what happens when people distort facts and spread it like wild fire. As George Orwell said "Whoever controls the past controls the future, and whoever controls the present controls the past." A distortion of the past will help change the future. If you attack Alexander you also attack Christianity, and you unknowingly attack Christianity since you do not think first before you did not bother to know the entire story. Modern Society is trying to attack Christianity with BS and you help put fuel to the fire, congratulations I hope you feel proud if that is what you want by spreading ½ truths. So you might say you are a spiritual man but economic man has influence your judgment and it shows. You know I am harsh and blunt so non of the facts are an insult.

What you stated about Alexander is not what established historians say but propagandists. He was taught by the great philosophers in person that have also influenced most of Christianity. They say he was a homosexual and at those times it was not allowed and we know that the great philosophers did not agree to that. As they said “preserve the natural”, but as Orwell said to control eh future you have to control the past and to control the past economic man has to rewrite history since they have control now. As your comments of what he was are just the opposite, he didn’t force people to change their views and let them practice it. If you see a map of what parts he won over they were Persian lands since they were the invaders. If you know the Battle of Thermopolis you will see how the Persians took an army to attack, or the many other attacks that they did. The Persian system was imperialistic which is why Alexander has to bring peace by putting a stop to the Persian imperial system. Alexander did not invade others like India but tried to understand their culture and preserved it and exchanged ideas like philosophy, art, etc. which has influenced all the way to east Asia which is now they learned the martial arts from the pankratian style, and statues of Buddha that the face is similar to Apollo, philosophy which as cheese quoted but didn’t know the original origin, and the list goes on. Many wrote about Alexander but many don’t even use facts but assumptions and false accusations from “economic men” that ignore established and agreed on biographical info from writers like Arrian on “Anabasis of Alexander” which has been relied upon by many spiritual men for thousands of years but when economic man takes power then the distortions come. Another is Callisthenes which was a nephew to Aristotle which has written a bio form Alaxander and his collection of “pseudo-callisthenes” material. Also others like D. Siculus, Q.C. Rufus, Plutarch, etc. Even the historian that help make the Oliver store film knows he distorted history and said that the movie/information about him is made to reflect modern society than what really happened.

“Alexander's detractors have shown unscrupulous malignity toward him. ... His crimes have been exaggerated, his virtues depreciated, his motives distorted; and every piece of scandalous gossip raked up against him.” From the historian G.B.Niebuhr (Romische Geschichte).
“Alexander, building over seventy cities among the barbarous nations ... weaned them from their wild and former savage mode of living. ... It was not his design to ransack Asia like a robber, nor to despoil and ruin it ..” Plutarch
Etc etc etc.

So much you don’t know but you act like you figure it out. What you said is what I said when I was a 10 years old, but I am guessing that you are not 10. Ignorance is also a root to evil and what you said before was ignorant. Maybe you should be follow what Alexander’s and Christianity’s role model said to be humble, but you would disagree since there is a lot you don’t know and it is like your view is on a piece of domino which is covered up with other dominos (views) and to make you understand their needs to be a lot of dominos that have to be lifted (fixed) so that you understand better.

Some parts of the domino is that people don’t get that Christians (spiritual man) don’t run this country but non Christians (economic man) run this country since they control news, entertainment, education, politics since they donate more, etc. Anything Christian or related to Christian will be attacked to better economic man money and power, which many spiritual men like yourself fall into that trap and do it proudly as the last post about “brave new world stated” how people do and say what is wrong with pride. Everyone means well but lack of information is everyone’s downfall and as one of my quotes says “the road to hell is paved with good intentions”. This is not an attack at you or others but a realization which I know many don’t want to know and will not want to know since it is too much. Also it is not only what you know but how you and others methods arrive to the conclusion and it show’s that people’s methods are way off. I can’t blame you since liberal society does influence people and there is no escaping it no matter how much you want to think you are immune.

The difference with a professor is that they know more but are willing to understand, while an amateur thinks they know it all but knows less and is not willing to understand. Their really is no point in dealing with people that when explaining the facts that they can not understand it. Metaphor = It is like talking to a mathematician about math that understands while a child doesn’t know better and doesn’t want to listen since there is not point to talk about advanced things. If you truly care you will look it up

If people persist on attacking Christianity indirectly to not know history well they are the #1 threat to Christianity weather they like it or not. "Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity." "Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones" GB Shaw or maybe this quote from GB Shaw explain why society under the hands of people that did not make it don’t appreciate it "The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery."

Honestly, don’t put fuel to the BS fire or you will burn yourself as well since it is not true and it doesn’t benefit you.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)
"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodox Info

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
First I would like to know how said philosophers influenced Christianity. Second, how does attacking a pagan conquerer mean that I am attacking Christianity? Third, how does REconquering conquered land make the conquering any less brutal or even (as you assert) good (except, of course, in the instances of true, willing liberation of recently Greek lands)? It's still conquering, it's still murder, and it's still wrong. Why would the people of those nations find it any happier living under one empire than the other? How does the imperialism of one nation give another nation a right to assert another system of imperialism in its place to "stop" it or bring "peace". It's similar to a six year old punching another six year old in the nose and loudly complaing "BUT HE HIT ME FIRST!", except that, in the instance of the six year olds, there were significantly less casualties and loss of innocent life.

On the note of conquering I must commend Alexander for his wisdom, he knew that if he made everyone his enemy then there was no way he could maintain control of his empire. He wisely made "friends" with those he knew he could not beat or could not beat easily, and allowed the nations, once he'd whipped them soundly in battle or intimidated them into surrender, to keep their culture and even "graciously" shared some of his Greek culture with them, assimilating them into his empire and cleverly diminishing the threat of rebellions, a tactic used quite often by the Romans later in history (whom for some reason you seem to dislike).

That brings me to my final point. One of the best ways to determine the nature and true heart of a person, at least according to the Bible, is through their fruit, the visible results of their life and actions. Let's examine Alexander under these contexts. First, philosopy and art flourished under the culture that he did a huge part in spreading, which are both good things, most instances considered, but there were bad sides as well. Mainstays of the Greek culture were also pantheistic idolatry and hedonism, which flourished in Greek culture, and were spread (sometimes forcefully) throughout the world conquered by Alexander, most notably in their opression and subjugation of the Jews, forcing them to renounce God and accept their Greek ways, and at the same time plundering the temple and defiling it. This was halted by the Macabees in 167 BC.

Even after the Greek empire had collapsed, the seeds sown by the actions of Alexander the Great and the empire that he created blossomed afresh in the form of the Roman Empire, a culture rooted in Greek culture and ideas. The Roman legacy of the Greeks was long, glorious and bloody, giving rise to gluttony, hedonism, homosexuality, murder, lust, fornication, among other thing, and using many of the same methods used by Alexander to expand their empire and assimilate other nations into their own through force, intimidation, or whatever means nessecessary, and then succeeding in convincing them that they WANTED to be Roman, share in this wonderful culture, and have all the amazing benefits of being Roman, sound familiar? The Roman culture then gave rise to facism, and was even responsible for the Dark Ages, and endless slaughters, murders, darkness, and corruption of Christianity itself as small factions, and even the church fought to "rebuild" the empire in their own image. This ideology, born of the fruit of Alexander the Great's conquest and actions ended up being the center of almost every instance of imperial ambition, from the great English Empire and the Crusades to the Nazi regieme under Adolf Hitler (though many of these failed to accomplish Alexander's feat with anything resembling his finesse, cunning, and success), the fruit of Alexander lives forth even today, permeating the world with its legacy of conquest and hopeful rebirth of another era of great "culture", at gun-point if nessecessary.

Plese don't think that I'm trying to be arrogant or offend you, I'm honestly not attempting to, I want to understand you better and understand your ideas and WHY you think them and how you came to develop them, I know I'm probably only throwing wood on the fire, but I do so in the hope that when it all burns down we'll understand each other better and why each of us thinks what and how we do. I do not wish to offend and, I respect your vehemence and passion, and even though I disagree with you, I do respect your steadfastness, and hope to imitate it and stand just as firmly when my own beliefs are put to the flames.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited May 15, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited May 15, 2006).]




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Do you want to get burned or do you want to learn?

If you really want to learn your assumptions should not be thrown in the mix as facts. If you want to learn I gave you a head start with who to read but you keep going for the other side and it is just annoying. You are throwing not just fuel to the fire but all the facts with it. I don’t understand you and as so I will be harsh since what you said was completely ludicrous, and I didn’t expect such out right insane false and anti Christian BS from you since no respectable historian would say what you have said. This post went off topic so I will close it and continue with more info in the religious forum. But you should honestly go ask a historian in the proper department with an unbiased view. If you want more info ask in PM.

As I said this is the problem when other people make their own Christian sects since they lose the meaning and the history of Christianity. I know you have a lot of questions but at least you are asking questions. It has been documented that the Ancient philosophers influenced Christianity and you can see that in how the people acted, believed and said. Many of logical things Christianity says have been said before by the philosophers in you pay attention which has been stated. This is a new topic so I guess I have to post something about it in the religious forum even though I have been procrastinating to post about it. Since your history and probably others is wrong I will post about it.

He was not pagan as I will say in the religious forum. “Alexander was the first to declare that God was not only the ruler but also the father of all men.” pseudo-Callisthenes.
The Persians attack the Greeks constantly and have burned their city to the ground what do u expects for them to let them rebuild and attack again? You are not military tactician, defender of many, or have been trained by the best philosophers but you think you are better to judge him? Being too nice to your enemy to let them slaughter your people makes you worse than the enemy. So you say if you were president you would let 911 happen many times without attacking back?

Benjamin Franklin said about Alexander that we should "in all humility imitate”, "the best man who has ever lived," and "a Christian before Christ."

“Any one who reproaches Alexander should not do so by merely citing actions that might merit reproach, but should collect all of his actions together, and then carefully reflect who he himself is and what kind of fortune he enjoys, that he can condemn Alexander, given what Alexander became and the height of human good fortune he attained…” Oxfords P.A. Brunt
So you comment about their fruit is right but you bad assumptions are wrong since they were not know for that since HELLOOOO they made the saying “everything to Moderation” and that is what they lived by. When you talk about the Jews being attacked again you have to see history again which you like to ignore a lot in how the Jews were a war tribe and attacked others a lot which the Greeks countered by attacking them. Their hero’s were war mongers like David, Solomon, etc. You talk about hedonism but have you heard of Sodom and Gomorra? Jews were against anyone that was not them, and they did not like that others could go to heaven and wanted to be the only chosen people which Christ didn’t like what they did and said they have the "synagogue of Satan" while when the Greeks went to see Christ he knew that that their culture was alike which is why most Apostles lived in Greece and it took off well since they actually believed in 1 god which the apostle Paul saw the statue in Greece that said “to the unknown God” and not gods and didn’t talk about other Gods, which when the Greeks went to see Christ he said "The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.". You must be a protestant to say what you say.

Alexander helped pave the way for Christianity by help making the gymnasiums, libraries, education then with their language which helped spread Christianity like wild fire, but that’s a bad thing to you. Now I am wondering if you are Christian or an atheist who would explain some things, but I guess you are a protestant which would explain a lot as well due to the foundation of the sect that has been attacking Christianity which Christianity has been declining. The biggest threat to Christianity is altered Christian second which like it or not that’s the fact, and trying to destroy the foundation of Christianity with lies blindly is one way to go against it.

As for the Romans they were conquerors and didn’t respect others things. Look at the great library of Alexandria that without Alexander it would not have been made but with the help of Roman atheists like Nero, Jews, and other non Christians they help burn it down which has a lot of information like about the hypocratian oath which many doctors do not follow now since they want to be “economic men” and the what was said in their has influenced modern medicine and doctors still use the many of the tools and methods as they did back then, and many other things which have benefited you which you leniently attack. He was not known as Alexander the conqueror or the killer, or other distorted words you say but the great which only a fool will attack what is good let alone great.

Greece was out numbered against Rome just like in the battle of Thermopolis. Greece has been defending all the time and helps spread Christianity with the help of Eastern Europe with no Thanks to Western Europe with the catholic and protestant religion when it used the Crusades to attack the Holiest Christian places in Greece. Romans were comprised of mixed groups of people especially from the northern Europe. You can not pin all those negative attributers to Greeks since the philosophers of the time have stated how they were against it. Protestants convert people at gun point, the orthodox Christians like the Greeks and their neighbors did not and have been attacked physically and with lies like you have said. People don’t change their stripes easily “The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." (George Bernard Shaw) You seem to want to push for the saying to be true your actions show how you distort and the facts. This is what happens when some non Orthodox do bring their own views in the mix and spread distortions. Since the cultures of western European have brought all those bad things you have said.

So lets wrap up in what was said the greatest philosophers, modern intellects Benjamin Franklin, respected oxford historians, and even Christ go against what you have said but you will ignore everything and you will you keep saying non Christian.

People can not be good Christians if they don’t know history well since they most likely follow a distorted Christian view. Honestly go back to school I am not going to deal with people that don’t want to know.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)
"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodox Info

Ereon

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Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
The words of men do not show the heart of the man, nor are they evidence of his Christianity. How could such as Alexander be a Christian without Christ (though it is possible that he was, in at least some areas, at some times, Christ like)? Words are cheap, is it not entirely possible that he simply said what he thought others would wish to hear, in order to keep the peace, or persuade them to do as he wished? Why is defense an excuse for conquest? If the Persians attacked first, then why did the Greeks attack, take back their land, the Persian's land and even MORE land if their true aim was nothing more than defense? It seems tantamount to the US conquering Iraq, Afghanistan, and the entire Middle East because they were "attacked first". As to the matter of gun-point I meant secular nations. Culture is great, but what good is all philosophy and art in the world if it's spread by conquest (as in the example of Alexander)?

According to the information I've garnered from my studies, both in the past (from secular Latin and World History classes, and independant studies of the Greco-Roman period) and some of my present studies it seems as if historians are far from as decided as you apparently ascertain, either past or present historians. The words of philosophers and great men, however great they are, does not serve as a evidence of a man's achievments, much less his perfection or morality, and the philosophy of men is susceptible to failure, no matter what their intellect or greatness, since men are imperfect, then why should the word of men be our rod by which we measure the worth of other men? Is it not entirely probable that they, as you have often accused us, were susceptible to propaganda and outward appearances, and is it not even more possible that these great philosophers and teachers were biased, not only because of personal opinions, but of personal surroundings and the society they were in?

I cannot view Alexander as a foundation of Christianity for two reason, 1. Jesus is the ONLY foundation of Christianity, noone else, 2. Alexander was a man, and no matter what he said about God his actions apparently did not follow his words as he is clearly recorded to have, at least at times, been a drunkard, an adulterer (from Biblical standards), a homosexual, and a murderer. You discourse has indeed changed my view on Alexander, and I see much more in him now to be admired and respected, and I thank you for revealing these things to me. However I still fail to see why, when he was not Jesus, that you choose to view him as indispensible to the church, or anything more than a sinful, imperfect man like the rest of us? As for the Romans, werenn't they simply following (or at least attempting to follow) the example of the Greeks (and most notably Alexander) who came before them?


P.S. I'm not an Atheist, Orthodox, Protestant or anything other than a young man who loves Jesus, seeks Him and His presence, and wants to know Him more and discover His plan for my life. Denominations are foolish and serve only to split us all apart when we should be one, therefore I do not belong to a denomination.
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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited May 16, 2006).]




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Persia has a big land since they were conquers. Ask India if they have been conquered by him which they will say no. I replied to you in PM in how there is a book that is made mainly for disputing those wrong points and talked it.

To get information from a secular place doesn’t sound proper. People are not perfect but logic is. Christianity =logic, philosophy = logic. And since you mention people not being perfect then you have to admit that sects are not perfects, and your Christian views are not. You have to look at Christianity as a whole which is why early Christianity they has the counsel which an individual didn’t make the decision but a group that agreed on what goes and stays. Even the bible was made with the same counsel to keep what books are real and fake. You are not perfect, nor and I or others, but compared to 2000 years of gathered information that goes against you a single person that has errors then the odds are that you are most likely wrong no matter what way you slice it. And what you have said so far in many of the wrong misconception just proves you point that people are wrong including you.

Don’t distort what I said. I did not say Alexander is the foundations but he and others before him have paved the away for Christianity. And what you said about what he is has been stated how it is wrong but you persist to state error as fact, so again read the PM that disputes all your claims. If is amazing how they had to make a book just for people that say misconceptions like u do, since that is how far off society has some to not paying attention to what happened for political interest. He was not called great for the wrong reasons and only a liberal modern society will attack someone great and praise someone vile as great. As Christ said what is good will be considered bad and what is bad will be considered good.

As for your other comments they are explained in the new post I made in the religious forum. If people care to know about Christianity more they should read. If you want to look for the truth always look at the beginning with an open and optimistic mind.
http://www.christiancoders.com/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum9&topic=000233

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)
"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodox Info

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Taking your definition then that you apply to Persia to condone attacking them, it would be similarly good for someone to make war against the Muslims and kill them, because they are the ones growing and getting a "big land" and therefore they are the conquerers? Would it not be a foolish thing to attack a place so large and strong as India when you already had alot of other land to maintain, as well as threats and/or rumors of rebellion or at least discontent grew back in the lands you'd already conquered? And as we both know Alexander was no fool. Logic may be perfect (I'm taking your word for it) but logic has to be practiced by people doesn't it? Is it not possible that, in the practice of logic, people can, either purposfully of accidently make errors in that logic? Since when does Christianity=logic? Isn't Christianity supposed to equal following Christ? If Christianity equals logic then how would we be affective for Christ, since during out Christian walk we are often asked explicitly by God and the Holy Spirit to do things that defy logic and may even border on apparent insanity? I fail to see 2000 years of information that go against what I am asking. all I hear are your words, spoken as indeniable, and supposed to, apparently be taken by me as final, what is the information that you refrence, and where can I find it for myself? Things I have said, so far have only been said to be misconceptions by you, and indeed, since researching and studying I have found that this is a subject that merits a considerably larger amount of thought than I at first gave it, however, if people are wrong, and all I have are your words and a few selective quotes, what is to show that you are not any more wrong than I am? I don't mean to ask it in a mean or challenging way, I'm just a little annoyed at getting talked down to because of information that. at least at this point, you alone are privy to.

As for Alexander being the foundation, that was simply the impression I got, I apologize for misunderstanding you, and I agree that many of his achievments did indeed pave the way for Christianity. Why do you say that they didn't call him Alexander the Great for the wrong reasons? What do you use to define the wrong reasons? What do you use to define the right reasons?

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind




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If someone attacks you constantly would you say you would not attack back and keep letting them gather up their army to attack? Persia had a big army and no one up to this day percentage wise has not accomplished what Alexander did in the time, men, and areas which was impossible to accomplish back then. In other words they were not a conquering country in their views, and they even had the Spartans which were the elite that never attacked anyone but has 300 Spartans helping to defend against a Persian by killing 20,000 men which is not bad since they were against over ½ a million Persians that invaded. So all in all what you say does not add up to a logical conclusion unless you think logic does not count when talking about facts which I hope you don’t assume that. They went against the Persians many times on defense but enough was enough and you have to admit that if ½ a million Muslims attacked and destroy most of your country you would do something about it right? Judging form what you say you make it sound like you would let them regroup and attack again. If is like the game Risk if you played it in how you have to conquer land, if someone keeps attacking you then you to take your land then you have to take them down since they will not stop.

Christianity does not equal illogic you know. Its concepts are logical and have root in philosophy as well as stated in the other post. You make it sound like Christianity is a backwards illogical religion and that doesn’t show much faith. What is right is logical and not illogical. Modern liberal society tries to mess up history by distorting it which the book that the other post and in your PM has stated.

Their was no point I attacking India and if you look at the path and land they took they did not take over India, or the other regions which they could have done that years before and it would have been simpler to them. I don’t know what is more scary the wrong information you say or where u got it from.

Christianity doesn’t say to defy logic to be “insane” as you said but have faith. Our lack of logic keeps us from having faith. Wouldn’t you say god is logical and that god has reasons why things should be or would u call it insanity? Even the smartest men were religious, the ones that are semi smart think of themselves too highly.

It almost seems like you try to compare Alexander to Mussolini, Stalin, Genghis Khan, and George Bush (? Lol kidding about Bush but to an extent he did worse than Alexander in most historians views in the lies, invasions, killings, etc) in scale of morals, giving freedom, and accomplishments which you obviously know it not true. I how can a highly educated ham like Alexander that has been thought by one of the best philosophers of time be as bad as you say? He was not perfect but since someone as logical as him is so vastly wrong in your opinion then we might as well listen to an crazy fool you make it sound like. If it was not for Alexander the chances that most here would be Christian would be most unlikely and you know that since Muslims countries mentality is not accepting and they think differently since they have a different logic.

You quickly jump to the negative and wrong conclusions without giving the benefit of the doubt sometimes. You have to admit that. You ask for proof but the proof is within you.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)
"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
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CheeseStorm
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I thought Christians were supposed to turn the other cheek and let God guide them through tough times without responding in kind.
Ereon

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Registered: 04-12-2005
To answer your question no, I would not fight back, and if there was no way to disable or deter them from attacking me without causing so much as one death on their side I would not even defend myself. They way I look at it is that I am ready to die, and if they attacking me for the regular reasons of war (hatred, greed, power, money, ect.) then they are not ready to die, therefore I would consider it better for me, who am ready to die, to lose my life than for even one of them, who is not ready, to lose theirs.

On the subject of conquering then, how does a nations not conquering a country in their view mean that they weren't conquering? Using the metaphor of two six year olds once again let's say that one hits the other, once again right in the nose. The one who got hit yells out in annoyance, tears in his eyes "HEY! YOU HIT ME!", to which the second calmy replies, "I didn't hit you in my view, I only tapped you."

I have nothing against Alexander, I only seek to see him in a middle ground light. As you've mentioned people often try to paint Alexander and the Greeks as evil, perverted people, often for political purposes. However, people also try to paint things brighter and better than they really were, often for political reasons (for example, Rome by the Nazis, shown by the adoption of the famous "hail hitler" sign which is actually called the "roman salute" and was widely used by the Romans, or the use of the "Ancien Régime" (Ancient Regieme) train of thought used by the French and many other European nations to rationalize the noble's rule over the peasents or, in the case of the French Revolution, the peasents over the nobles . The answer usually lies somewhere in the middle, and it is this middle that I am trying to find. Saying that Alexander and the Greeks were the only reason that Christianity is around is similar to saying that Otto von Guericke is the only reason the light bulb was created because he made one of the first electrostatic generators. God may have used the Greeks to make the tools, but they were God's tools, isn't He the one who should be glorified and given the credit. The Greek language, philosophy, their art and architecture, didn't it all have its source and being in and of God, and wasn't He the one who allowed them to "discover" it in the first place and apply it to their lives?


Concerning Christianity as being illogical, taking your expression that philosophy=logic let's work from there.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:8

At first I thought this was a slam against all philosophy, but after the part about philosophy and vain deceit it has this line "after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ". This seems to say that there are apparently two types of philosophy according to the Bible, those that are "after the tradition of men" and "after Christ". If there are two types of philosophy mentioned in the Bible, a good one and a bad one, then would it not also mean that there are two types of philosphy (and therefore, according to your definition) logic, that can be practiced? At first I thought that Christianity was illogical, but now, after reading this, it seems (at least to me) that it is simply a different kind of logic, the logic that is "after Christ" (after being the word in Greek that means "according to". What is right is logical, but only to the logic that is "after Christ" (or "according to" Christ), often to that logic that is "after the tradition of men" (or logic according to the traditions of men) descisions made by this logic seems illogical, because the two are completely seperate. You're right, Christianity and what is right IS logical, it's just a different type of logic.

I thank you very much for continuing to discuss this with me, if it wasn't for your willingness to proceed I wouldn't have learned all of the great things I have and still am learning. I look forward to continuing our conversation.


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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited May 18, 2006).]

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Warsong... you are a fool, and your arguement falls by the wayside.

What are we attacking? When is the last time we attack someone for no reason? I'm not sure what's happening in Iraq, neither are you, so don't say you do. People have been saved there, we are defending humanity. Our soldiers aren't total "yes" men who do whatever is told. Some stuff happened in Vietnam, and in Iraq, and such. Just because accidents happen, doesn't mean they are all mindless drones.

Alexander the Great, attacking him is attacking Christianity? Sorry, don't see it.

Argh, it's pointless to argue with a close-minded person.

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Max, please cut Warsong some slack, he has opinions just like you and I. Don't write off someone as close-minded until you've heard their reasons for what they think. There may be other reasons for someone's acting the way they do then just what is on the outside.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited May 18, 2006).]




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Chesse
An apostle said that faith alone with no action doesn’t work. You can not sit their and let God do everything for you.

Max
And you as less of a fool? Are your comments Christian to be humble? You should take your own advice. Go back to school and read more history and ethics. Just because you don’t agree doesn’t mean u can attack someone and not give a reason why you disagree. As for the soldiers they are taught to be yes men. There is a military saying KISS = (keep it simple stupid). Not a very individualistic kind of saying for people that say they are not yes men, since they are yes men.

Ereon
What you say sometimes is not right or Christian. If it was like that then we would not be Christian. To defend is one thing to attack is another which you seem to confuse. To kill is a sin and to let others kill you and others is suicide which you are bringing more sin, and to let the bad person spread his evil views and destruction. Even Christ turned the tables at the market place since it was not allowed, but it seems that you would let people do anything they want to you and to other good Christians. You can not spread of the word of God if you have others trying preventing you and try to kill you and you let them. Evil happens when good people do nothing, and in that case makes the person that does nothing evil as well. This is common logic.

If someone comes in this forum and puts viruses and messes it up every day then you might think that is ok, but it is not. You have to prevent the person from doing so and if you can not then you have to stop them one way or another. You would take action on something as small as that but when millions come over to where you live and destroy it and kill people you say you will do nothing? And if you know that they spread their bad views and will kill others and you have the power to stop it and you do nothing then you are also to blame and just as bad as them since you let it happen.

Your metaphor is off the subject and odd. Let’s say this if you rob a police station then they arrest you if they let you keep robbing then they can not do their job and more crimes rise and you will also have problems. If Alexander did let Persia take over Greece to enter Europe and take over Europe they will kill and the rest forcefully convert. As you see now the Muslim countries are not too fond of the Christian view since they are fanatical since that is part of their culture which. You know that Persia look the kids from the countries they invaded and made them into soldiers to fight right? Is that a life? They live and die for their sultan without any freedom. People like you let it happen since you say it’s not right to prevent it and let it happen and that is just sad. Again as for your 2 kids analogy it is that kind A hits kid B again and again until one day kid B attacks back to prevent kid A from bullying others and trying to teach him the right way of doing things. You on the other hand will defend the bully and let him spread his hate and destruction which I do not understand you.

You say the answer lies in the middle and you want to deny the people that made the saying “everything to moderation” lol It is like saying thank you for looking out for me and showing but you might be the bad one lol. Honestly you should see what you are saying. It is like someone giving out free helpful advice that benefited you and others a lot and you still look at them in a bad way lol. Talk about gratitude. Then it shows that people are naturally evil or think bad since even what is good is looked down upon while people accept bad or evil ideas since that are what they know and are accustomed to. Now that is sad. I agree with you when you say that the Greeks could have been Gods tools to help bring Christianity as the other post stated and other historians have said as well. So to attack Gods tool that brought positive thing would be bad to not just them but to everything, everything, and God.

I say Christianity is logical, which you make it seem that it is illogical. I think you should reread what I said before. I agree with col 2:8, but you have to distinguish from Christian traditions and regular traditions of men. Since we are talking about the Greek is it any wonder that the Greece is considered to be the only Christian country that has its culture and religion as one in the same and they also have it the longest out of anyone since Christianity is similar to ancient Greek views as the other post stated? Plenty of info to back that up as stated in the other post. Also orthodox countries try to follow that as well and are trying more and more to be like that, but they and Greece are prevented by the US, UN, and EU since they are pushing for a secular countries. Other non orthodox countries can not do that since they impose their cultures which contradict with Christianity and they are not willing to let go of their culture as Col 2:8 has stated. I have explained this to you in the other post but I am guessing you didn’t read it. Also what George Bernard Shaw said "The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." Which as you see others cultures distort Christianity hence all those Christian sects which distort Christian Orthodoxy views which have bee around the longest.

Logic is logic, just like 1+1=2. There is no other type of logic but there is ½ *** logic that may look logical but fall short form being right just like a long math problem where you might solve most of the computation but 1 error can mess the entire answer. If you are Christian then you know that God is not wrong and God has a logical reason even if it looks to us that it is wrong since we are not perfect and so illogical deduction comes out of us as well and when imperfection challenges perfection imperfection will always loose. The ancient Greek philosophy was for truth and they were religious also they influenced Christianity the most which is why many things they did are used in Christianity. Since their philosophy and culture was a religious one which is why the apostles went to them to spread the word. But yes there are 2 types of philosophy the right one and wrong one, black, and white, day and night, good and bad, it depends what side you want to choose the right or the wrong one, and if you want to choose a little from the good and a little form the bad then wouldn’t that be bad as well? Kind of like mixing $hit with ice-cream and you only ruin the ice-cream. Do again do not mix the 2 or else you will only understand that and start to appreciate the wrong and ignore what is right like so many do sad to say.

I hope that clears things up more. But maybe you should read it 2 times since I said a lot and obviously some examples slip though you because it is too much information. If you reply again try to think of what I will say before I you ask lol.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)
"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodox Info

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
So will your god clean off your sins when you know you're ready to kill someone in the "right" situation?
That_Guy

Member

Posts: 30
From: TN,USA
Registered: 02-26-2005
quote:
Orginal posted by warsong:
To kill is a sin and to let others kill you and others is suicide which you are bringing more sin


Warsong I disagree with the above statement almost totally.
I agree that sucide is a sin, but allow someone else to kill you is not,
because if that is true then you are claiming Jesus is a sinner, which is against all things Christian.
Think about it.

edited: formating issues, number issues.
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My real name is William, feel free to call me that.
I can't spell feel free to corret me.

[This message has been edited by That_guy (edited June 06, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by That_guy (edited June 06, 2006).]

Simon_Templar

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Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
Christianity is not a pacifistic religion, and it never has been. The church (going all the way back including both RC and Eastern Orthodox) have never condemned killing as a soldier, or capitol punnishment by the state as sins.

Christianity does place a high value on life and advocates avoiding war and killing as long as is reasonably possible to do so.

The commandment "thou shalt not kill" is not a general prohibition against all killing. In the original language it very clearly means what in modern terms we would call "murder". In hebrew there are actually several words for "killing" just like we have in english (kill, murder, slay, slaughter etc). Each of the words has a different conotation. The one used in the commandment "thou shalt not kill" is not a general word, rather it is specific to killing without justification or authority.

The word in hebrew is ratsach which means to murder, slay, or kill, with the conotation of either premeditated murder (it can be used to mean assasinate as well) or accidental "manslaughter".


Cheese,

The admonition to turn the other cheek is also very often misunderstood. In this case Jesus was talking specificly about insults and offenses, not self defense. To slap someone on the cheek was an insult, not a physical attack on their person. Thus this isn't an injunction against defending yourself from bodily harm, but rather an injunction not to take defend yourself when people insult you and to take offense when people insult you, or to try and take vengence when insulted.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
If I may ask Simon, when is it, scripturally, good to kill?

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

RA Games

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Posts: 93
From: Sacramento, Ca., USA
Registered: 05-22-2006
"I agree that sucide is a sin, but allow someone else to kill you is not,"

I disagree, because the statement assumes a "self-centered" attitude.

What if you have a wife and kids or a group of people that depends on you? Would it be a sin for you to allow yourself to die off and then let them suffer?

I think so...


If you wanna read about a REAL spiritual man, then click on the thread below. I used to see, hear and talk to demons and that was very spiritual, but not of God.

http://www.christiansongwriting.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=52&start=0

Yes, it is a sin to allow a crazed out demon thug murderer to kill you, when others are depending on you so much. Think about THEM okay and defend yourself and KILL the offender!?

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God said to Noah, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth.
Genesis 6:13

[This message has been edited by RA Games (edited June 06, 2006).]

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
I would have to disagree with you RA. Isn't God able to defend his own people? The people who would kill you are the very ones that need God the most, and if you end their life before they have a chance to realize that haven't you potentially ended their life both physically AND spiritually in one fell blow? It's not something that I would feel able to live with. If you really are so important and vital to so many people, wouldn't it be best to pray for protection for yourself and those you're over, and leave it up to God to protect you and keep you safe. I know that's what my Dad does, and for the last 16 years of my life it's worked extremely well.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

CoolJ

Member

Posts: 354
From: ny
Registered: 07-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by Ereon:
I know that's what my Dad does, and for the last 16 years of my life it's worked extremely well.

Your Dad's a good man

[This message has been edited by coolj (edited June 06, 2006).]

RA Games

Member

Posts: 93
From: Sacramento, Ca., USA
Registered: 05-22-2006
"Isn't God able to defend his own people?"
Of course yes, but God is LOVE and is a respecter of free wills.
That is why we have child molesters, rapist and others down here now still alive.

King David used his sword and armies to spread Godliness and monotheism in Jehova on the earth and yet he was a man after Gods own heart.

While God and His angels can easily protect you at any time, there are lots of other powers that want to kill you at this same time, namely satan and his angels. Trust me the devil hates our guts and everybodys actually, so why let him and his followers rule down here by dieing a un-needed death?

It won't do the earth and all of us any good down here bro if you are dead, because of the modern church and their "wimpy" dogma's.
Jesus died, because he was called to be a sacrifice. <The Lamb> Our calling is not to die, but to help people down here find real righteousness.

I debated a nice gutless christian guy at the thread below about this.
http://www.christiansongwriting.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=201&start=90

Basically, if the popes of old had believed the modern church teachings like today, then we'd all be bowing to Mecca right now. lol

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God said to Noah, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth.
Genesis 6:13

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
I SEVERELY disagree with you. David did not use his sword and armies to spread God or monotheism. He used them to defend Israel and to do what God told him, mainly to take back the land that God had promised to David's ancestors. If Davids goal was to spread God then why didn't he just kill Saul (a king would had no respect of love for God, and did not obey Him)?

On the subject of angels and demons, didn't just say this?

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

All power, in heaven AND earth.....hmmmmmm. On top of this, add the words of Paul, a man whose life was threatened numerous times and didn't fight back.

Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Our enemy is not always what we see, and victory also is not always visible.

On the Crusades, I suggest you do more research on the Crusades, take a look at it from several different points of view, I think that you will find the circumatances that caused, the motivations for them, and the modern day reprucussions to be rather different from what your statement implied that you assume.


That brings us to the subject of death. Paul also had this to say on that subject.

so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Phillipians 1:20b-21

Our calling may indeed be to die, check this out. This set of verses comes at the end of Hebrews 11, a chapter that never fails to pump me up and invigorate me. It's such a powerful chapter, and it ends with this passage.

And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gideon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthah; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
Hebrews 11:32-40

All these awesome things, and not from strength of arms, or might of men, but by faith. It may be my calling to die for my faith, it may not, but I will stick the course and do what I must do to fulfill it. Let me ask a quesiton real quick. Let's say that you were the demon thug murderer, that you were driven to kill me by the things that you mention in your testimony (which I do believe by the way). Let us say that I did what you are apparently advising and killed you before you had a chance to meet that man a work and change your circumstances. What would be the outcome of that, what kind of damage would I be inflicting on you, both on your physical form, and your spirit after you had died, seperated from God and without Jesus?

When I fight, I will fight ferociously, I will battle and I will war, and fight tooth, nail,and claw; but that battle will not be one of the physical, I seek to train myself to fight in the invisible, to war against principalities, power, rulers of darkness, and spiritual wickedness, to tear down the strongholds and bring low the high places where these things destroy, maim, blind, and imprison my fellow human beings. When I war sir I will war with all the vengence and strength I can muster, but that war will be in the spirit, not against my fellow man. You're very blessed, because you've had the chance to experience such warfare to an extent that few of us have.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
@Ereon.
I look at it this way.
The Bible says, "You shall not murder."
The Bible also says, "You shall love your neighbor."
Fine, but:
God told Elijah to tell Jehu to destroy Ahab's kingdom, which he did.
God has told many people, including Samuel, David, Samson, Abraham, the judges of Israel, etc, to fight against this person or that country or other people.
Plus,
What if you are in your home with your family, and this drug crazed demon possessed man bursts in with a gun and says he is going to kill you.
If you kill him, he will be dead and cannot be saved.
If you don't, he will kill you, and then what?
He will attack your family members, and kill and do other terrible things to them. What if some of them aren't Christians? Shouldn't you save them instead of the criminal?
A man's responsibility to his family is to protect them from harm.
If you do not protect your family, who are your neighbours, are you loving them? No.
Also, murder is a different thing from killing. It is also different from execution. Execution is where the state kills a criminal to do justice. Killing can be self-defense, war between countries, etc.
Some translations say Kill instead of Murder, but God told the Israelites to destroy "Men, women, children and animals" in their wars with Canaanites.
Is God breaking his own commandments then?

Lazarus

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Lazarus

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
First, if I have done my duty as the head of my home, and I am submitted properly to God, and have dedicated my family to Him like I should, then He will protect them and me, either by keeping such an eventuality from happening, or protecting me and my family if it does. One thing a pastor at a church that we used to attend used to say is that everything is Father filtered. Everything that happens in life is allowed to happen to us by God to accomplish His purpose in us. If such a thing were to happen though, I would do my best to be sure that I had asked God for the wisdom on what to do before hand. In the middle of such conundrums it would be detrimental to do something outside of God's will because I wanted to listen to my mind or my flesh instead of the Holy Spirit. If something akin to this scenario did happen, then there must be a reason that God allowed it to happen, and it is my responsibility to accomplish His will and do what He wants in that situation.

On the issue of murder, execution, and killing the problems lies with the fact that, as humans, we wish to justify what we do for one reason or another. A government might murder someone and called it execution, a man might murder someone and claim it was self defense, to give someone (especially a government) a license to kill is EXTREMELY dangerous. As for God and killing, He is a perfect and just God, and all of these things were a result of His direct commands, commands that came from a just and perfect will. If God told me to kill someone, then I would obey Him and do it, because He knows better than I do (such as the example of God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son) but I refuse to make that assumption on my own or to allow any train of thought that might lead me to make that assumption. It had better be God and it had better be clear, because there is no other way that I would even consider, under any condition, killing another human being.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
God commanded the Israelites to execute Sabbath-breakers, rapists, adulterers, and disrespectful children, among others. That right there is God giving a people authority to execute criminals.

Ereon, it seems to me you think Christians shouldn't fight or go to war or defend themselves in any case. I just don't see it that way.

Does the Bible say anywhere that we should not do those things?

Lazarus

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Lazarus

Simon_Templar

Member

Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
Ereon, the short answer is that it is good to kill when God tells you to do so.

The bible lays out that it is good for governments to punnish, up to and including with death, wicked men because in doing so they restrain wickedness which otherwise would over run the earth. Thus they make it possible for righteousness to exist.

This is the entire reason that God sent the flood upon the earth. Prior to the flood God had not ordained any human government nor given authority to any man to make laws or to punnish the wicked. This is one of the reasons why Cain was not punnished with death for killing his brother Abel, because God had not ordained anyone with the authority to punnish him. (I'm sure it also had to do with the preservation of the human race)

But by the time of the flood mankind had become so evil and so unrestrainedly wicked that it was at the point where goodness itself and righteous people could not survive on the face of the earth. The result was that God wiped out almost all life and started over.

If you examine the covenant God makes with noah after the flood you will find that it contains all the basic authority upon which human governments are established. In this covenant God established the authority of human government and ordained with not only the authority to punnish evil doers, up to and including the death penalty, he mandated it as a responsability of government.

The primary role of government, the reason for which God established it, and for which he gave it authority was to restrain the wickedness of man. The central authority involved in that is the authority to punnish with death. Paul re-affirms this teaching in the New Testament when he gives his sermon on why Governments are given by God the power of the sword.

A person has a right, and it is very noble to give up your own life for the sake of another. Where pacifism goes wrong is that no one has the right to give up someone else's life. If you can prevent an innocent person's death by defending them, and you don't do it, you have done injustice.

this in no way means that our hope is in the sword. What it means is that God has ordained the sword to be used by us in some circumstances. Our hope is only ever in God, but God has given us the authority to use the sword, and he has given us mandates to use it as well.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.




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Registered:
Simon, Ra, and Lazarus said it well but, I can’t believe that ereon still doesn’t get it. Hmmm maybe we should start ignoring him, then he can find the information himself since people apriciate it more and know it better.

Bad people thrive when good people do nothing. Too good is no good and is an insult to Christ’s mercy. I hope people don’t misinterpret, but that is not an invitation to be bad.

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? “
“faith without works is dead” !!!!! James 2:18-26

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited June 06, 2006).]

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
That just sounds severely twisted, I will kill you, and then be a hero, or you will kill someone else, and then 'I' will be a murderer......

I can see what you are saying, but at the same time I cannot seem to convince myself that it is somehow acceptable or even preferable that I exercise lethal force on someone to save someone else. I can understand using non-lethal force to disable or stop someone who is hurting someone else (in fact I've taken about a year and a half worth of training in order to be able to do just that), but to exercise lethal force myself, with the intent of killing another human being for reasons outside of God's direct command is a course of action that I cannot, in light of any scripture I've read, justify myself in taking.

I did look up the verses you mentioned on Noah and government simon. I was already in favor of such action, it is only the matter of an individual killing another individual that I have problems with.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited June 06, 2006).]

That_Guy

Member

Posts: 30
From: TN,USA
Registered: 02-26-2005
Simon
Where does Paul preach about God giving the Governments the power of the sword.

Warsong
I always thought works refered to caring for the poor, the orphans, and the widowed.

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My real name is William, feel free to call me that.
I can't spell feel free to corret me.

Simon_Templar

Member

Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
That_guy,

Its in Romans chapter 13 at the beginning of the chapter. Paul talks about how we should obey the civil governments because they are ordained and given their authority by God. It also speaks of the fact that governments are supposed to be a fearful thing and a terror to evil doers etc.


Ereon,

What you're looking at there is the dilemma that many pacifists have had to face in the past in a much more real way than we are in our little philosophical discussion.

Two of the more famous ones that come to mind are Alvin York (AKA Sgt. York american WWI hero) and Deitrich Bonhoffer (a lutheran minister who lived in Nazi Germany).
Both men were pacifists who passionatly believed it was wrong to kill. Both men were faced with situations in which they faced the choice of killing, or sitting back and allowing many others to be killed.

If your interested I suggest you read what they had to say about their decisions and why they made them etc.

------------------
-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Actually I've read about both. Dietrich Bonhoffer is one of my personal heros, and it is his example that I would strive to follow if America was invaded or someone evil took control of our nation. As for Alvin York he is also and example I would follow. If I was drafted into the army I would apply myself whole heartedly in that course, even to the point of killing someone. I would be rendering unto Caeser what is Caesars, and therefore I would be under the authority of the government, and therefore they would be responsible for the things they told me to do, up to a point at least. I think you see me as a far more hardcore pacifist than I really am. I think about this stuff because, like you said, it's a delimma, and I would much rather make the descisions early, not wait for them to decide for me by a matter of sudden circumstance.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Ereon, I wouldn't want to kill anyone either, but if I have to to save someone else or even myself, I would.
You said in your post that you would become a soldier and fight because governments are given the authority for that.
As a human being, you have some responsibility to protect other people around you.
But if you are learning martial arts or something like that, fine. In some cases it is probably better to just immobilize criminals and turn them over to the authorities.
You won't always be able to do that though, and one of the rights we have in this country is the right to bear arms.
In every other country on this planet, when the people's right to have guns was taken away, the government took away all other rights, and killed many of their own citizens. Nazi germany, Russia, Rwanda, and the little Central American countries, Cuba to name a few.
The right to bear arms isn't exactly in the Bible, but as a citizen of the U.S(I assume you live there) you are supposed to obey the laws.

Lazarus

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Lazarus

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
There's a difference between a law and a right. A law is something the government says you have to obey, a right is something that given you the option to exercise. I would have no trouble with carrying a gun (though whether I could hit anything is much in doubt :P ) but if I had to use it (as in the case of defense of someone else) I would strive to the utmost to do so in a way that would not kill the assailant.

On me being soldier, if there was a draft, or some other eventuality that required me to do so I would, however, if the choice was left to me, I would not join of my own volition.

As a human being I may have the responsibility to protect other people, but at the same time how can it be insisted that I protect one person by the killing of another? What particular property lodged in the attacking person's being somehow makes them less of a person than the one I am defending? The easy answer is to say that he is trying to hurt someone else, but at the same time God loves him to, he doesn't want him to die, especially without knowing Jesus, it may be that I am supposed to be God's instrument of justice in that situation, but then again that may not be the case. Is it my prerogative to make that descision?

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Yes, it is a right, but I feel it can be a sin if you are able to protect your family and you do not.
Yes, it is your prerogative, but you should still pray about it first.

Lazarus

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Lazarus

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
That is part of the reason I don't ever intend to get married, it is a level of responsibility and whole new set of conundrums that I do not think I am capable handling or taking upon myself.

How is it my preogative to choose whether one man is any more worthy to die than another? I haven't read any verses in the New Testamant that give a man the spiritual right to kill another man, even in defense of himself or others, in fact the only verse I've seen that might be in direct refrence to the subject is Jesus' words to Peter about how those who live by the sword will die by the sword, and God's words to Noah about whoever sheds man's blood by man shall his blood be shed, both instances where those who use lethal violence will themselves suffer it. Please understand I am drawing a line personally between violence with the intent to kill, and violence without the intent to kill, my personal choices for my own actions are fully against the former, and fully supportive in the latter as a means of self defence or defence of others.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

[This message has been edited by ereon (edited June 07, 2006).]

RA Games

Member

Posts: 93
From: Sacramento, Ca., USA
Registered: 05-22-2006
ereon,

You quoted my favorite bible verse below:

-----------------------------------------
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

-----------------------------------------

Thank you for quoting it, but what is really happening is that we are struggling with un-seen powers that are driving the people all around us! So, it's the people actually! Because they listen to THEM!

You have to read the first previous verses of Ephesians chapter 6 and see that he is talking about everyday people,which are slaves, masters, fathers, children and basically the entire human race.

So, when the crusaders were fighting the muslim armies of old in the crusades, they were really fighting demons all around. Some of them realized that at the time, but today we are far too advanced and ignorant to know it.

If you read the Koran, you can see that at least the brutal enemy muslims knew it was a spiritual battle actually. Here read it below:
-------------------------------
"Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him. ... The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan ..." (Koran 4:74,76)
-------------------------------

Hey, give Bin Laden some credit. At least he knows it is a spiritual battle when humans fight, but we modern christians don't seem to know it? It's crazy but true...

------------------
God said to Noah, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth.
Genesis 6:13

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
So your solution would be to cut off the fruit of the plant and leave the root to sprout even more? Once upon a time there was a little boy who went to the arcade, he walked up to a wack-a-mole machine and began to play. At first everything went well and he happily went along, wacking the little moles as they popped up, after a while however, the moles started popping up way too fast and the little boy frantically swatted this way and that with the mallet, trying vainly to hit the little brown mounds. His efforts were to no avail and soon after to collapsed into tears, unable to keep up with the frantic pace. One of the teenagers at a nearby game saw the little boy crying and came over to ask him what was wrong. Tears streaming down his cheeks the little boy explained how he couldn't hit the moles, how there were too many and he just couldn't hit them fast enough. The teenager thought about it a while and then walked over to the machine and promptly unplugged it. "There you go," he said, "that should take care of everything right there."

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

RA Games

Member

Posts: 93
From: Sacramento, Ca., USA
Registered: 05-22-2006
"fruit of the plant "
Fruit?
In the bible this refers to either the church or maybe the nation of Israel.
Or the good works of a laborer.

About the moles:
It is good that they show themselves yes? because then we now know their true ways?

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God said to Noah, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth.
Genesis 6:13

That_Guy

Member

Posts: 30
From: TN,USA
Registered: 02-26-2005
Lazarus
Not every government with no right to bear arms takes a way all other rights.
For instance in England even most of the police aren't allowed to bear arms.
Most of the countries you mentioned where run by fanatical(?) dictators.

Ereon
I agree with most of what you said, but the post involving moles makes little sense.

------------------
My real name is William, feel free to call me that.
I can't spell feel free to corret me.

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Let's face it however you categorize a spiritual man and an economic man they depend on each other to evolve, progress, and exist. Like the Columbus example. It takes one to make the other.

NOTE: I didn't read the entire topic, I just sort of viewed a few of the top posts since I know how topics go around these parts. Posts 1-5 on topic, 6-10 slightly tangent 11+ somewhere off the wall and out the window.

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
quote:
Originally posted by That_guy:
Lazarus
Not every government with no right to bear arms takes a way all other rights.
For instance in England even most of the police aren't allowed to bear arms.
Most of the countries you mentioned where run by fanatical(?) dictators.

Ereon
I agree with most of what you said, but the post involving moles makes little sense.


England? I'm glad you brought that up. Little known news item in Great Britain a little while ago.
A farmer was attacked by 2 men trying to rob his home. He shot them with his shotgun, wounding and killing 1 of them. He was arrested, his gun confiscated, and he now faces up to life in prison for protecting his family. The criminals walked scot-free, and are now suing him for shooting them.
That's the way it's been in England for a while now, the murder rate is unbelievable. Let me show you just a few of the incidents:
In 1994, an English homeowner used a toy gun to detain two burglars who had broken into his home. The police arrested the homeowner for using an imitation gun to threaten and intimidate.

A British Petroleum executive was wounded in an assault on his life in a London Underground train carriage. In desperation, he fought off his attackers by using an ornamental sword blade in his walking stick. He was tried and convicted of carrying an offensive weapon.

A youth fearful of being attacked by a gang was arrested for carrying a cycle chain. After police disarmed him, he was set upon and hospitalized as a result of a brutal beating. The prosecutor nevertheless insisted on prosecuting the victim for "carrying a weapon."

Seventy percent of rural villages in Britain entirely lack police presence. But self-defense must be "reasonable," as determined after the fact by a prosecutor. What is reasonable to a victim being attacked or confronted with home intruders at night can be quite different from how a prosecutor sees it. A woman who uses a weapon to fight off an unarmed rapist could be convicted of using unreasonable force.

In 1999, Tony Martin, a farmer, turned his shotgun on two professional thieves when they broke into his home at night to rob him a seventh time. Martin received a life sentence for killing one criminal, 10 years for wounding the second and 12 months for having an illegal shotgun. The wounded burglar has already been released from prison.

Here is a link to more on these things:
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/howBthe.htm
although this isn't where I first heard about it.

So Ereon, if you actually do protect yourself with some martial arts skill you've learned, or protect your family, in England you would be arrested and put in prison. They might even confiscate your legs...j/k.

It's not only criminals you have to defend yourself from, it's your own government.
Germany was not fully under Hitler's control till the 1939 gun laws that removed all guns from private citizens possession. He boasted that this would usher Germany into a new age of peace and prosperity. It sure did...*rolleyes*

I believe it is my duty as a citizen of the U.S to protect it, even from it's own government. I also believe that any criminal who attacks me or my family will meet death, and I am glad of that. God gave us free will, he didn't have to attack us, and I must say, even though he will go to hell, I would rather that than any of my family get hurt.
Nowhere in the Bible does God say that we cannot protect ourselves.

Lazarus

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
To RA: I wasn't using it in a purely Biblical sense, I was using fruit as something that represents the result of something else. If all you do is deal with the results of problem, and you don't deal with the problem itself you are wasting energy (and perhaps other things) and accomplishing nothing.

As for the wack-a-mole machine story it's a metaphor for the issue. If all you do is spend time bashing the moles you will never reach the end and eventually you will be overwhelmed, therefore the only way to truly obtain victory is to cut of the source of power to the machine, to take care of in the spirit (through prayer and intercession) what is causing the problem, instead of flailing around wildly with the mallet trying to hit all the things that pop up.

To Lazarus: That is a sad set of events, in which a man cannot defend himself, even with non-lethal force. Having something set up that way is just asking for trouble.

Yes, sometimes you do have to defend yourself from the government, but there are more physically peaceful ways of doing so. For instance, these verses in Chapter 2 of I Timothy.

I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
I Timothy 2:1-3

It doesn't matter who you voted for or whether they're doing things the way tou want, we need to pray for our authorities, and do so so that we can live quiet and peaceful lives and not have to defend ourselves from our own government. As for me, I am a Christian, even before I am a US citizen, therefore I find it my first priority to be an ambassador of Christ and a citizen of His kingdom, and second to be one of the United States, so as for me, any criminal who attacke me or my family had better be ready to encounter the One more powerful than death, Jesus Christ.

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"I am very good at hiding, so if you don't see me, that's where I am." Orc Outlaw, TES III Morrowind

[This message has been edited by ereon (edited June 08, 2006).]

Lazarus

Member

Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
Hello again, Ereon. Funny you should bring that verse up, my Dad quotes it to us all the time .

Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

Shouldn't we?

Psa 7:10 My defense is of God, which saveth the upright in heart.

I can understand where you are coming from, but I really don't think most criminals breaking into homes are concerned about the Gospel, or becoming Christians. It makes more sense to witness to people who are open, than people who would kill you as soon as listen to you.

Lazarus

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Aren't the people who'll break into your house the ones that need help most? I've personally seen God do some amazing things, and I've learned that the only thing that limits what God can do is us. If someone breaks into your home, why shouldn't God's presence and glory be so strong in there that it takes the very thing that he was going to do beocomes repulsive to him, and right on the spot he repents and becomes your brother in Christ? Things like that happen, but only when we are close to God, and only when we do not limit Him to what we think He can or cannot do. I trust him enough that He knows how to take care of me, and as long as I am in His will He won't let anything happen to me or those close to me that isn't the absolute best for me. As long as I maintain that link there's nothing I can't handle, because there is nothing He can't do.

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

RA Games

Member

Posts: 93
From: Sacramento, Ca., USA
Registered: 05-22-2006
It doesn't work like that down here on earth.

God is a great respecter of free wills.

If somebody has a will to kill you, then so be it.
If you have a will to defend yourself, then so be it.

All of this is allowed, in order to show the angels <hosts>, what happens when sin reigns on earth. They are all watching us right now.

To not defend oneself is to die.

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God said to Noah, "The end of all living beings has come before me, for because of them the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them along with the earth.
Genesis 6:13

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
I fail to see how this discussion is glorifying Christ, and I see little future for it other than to banter back and forth with no forseeable end, therefore gentlement I take my leave, thank you for a most stimulating discussion.

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis