Ereon

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fan•ta•sy \"fan-te-se\ n, pl -sies 1 : imagination, fancy 2 : a product of the imagination : illusion 3 : fantasia — fantasy vb

So Sci-Fi is a branch off of Fantasy. Though I believe the fantasy you are referring to is also known as "swords and sorcery" which mostly originated from Norse (Vikings) and Germanic mythology.

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited March 07, 2006).]

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

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In the Lord of the Rings the wizards are actually beings given powers from Eru (the creator of Middle-Earth). But you take something like Harry Potter, which it involves a human who learns the crafts of magic. I believe there is a difference.

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited March 07, 2006).]

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

Good point Ereon. So what is the Bible referring to?

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited March 07, 2006).]

So final verdict:

Fantasy Based around Magic: STAY AWAY!!!!!!! BAD STUFF

Dungeons & Dragons: If playing make sure DM is Christian, and does not have any bad/evil stuff involved, other then that enjoy

Fansty in general: Great stuff, just don't take it too far.

I really hope that made sense, lol

Ereon: This is the whole point of my company to give people a Fantasy game that cannot be deemed bad, but enjoyable, and wholesome. I applaud you in your path, and pray you have the opportunity to help bring Christ into games!
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Arc~Angel Entertainment Home
Arc~Angel Entertainment Forum

[This message has been edited by gamer4christ (edited March 07, 2006).]

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

2Ch 33:1-6 Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty and five years in Jerusalem: But did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, like unto the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel. For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshiped all the host of heaven, and served them. Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be forever. And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD. And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Deu 18:10-12 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

Pray about this, pray for help with this subject, that you do what God has lead you to do and pray that God will help you do it

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited March 07, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by lava (edited March 07, 2006).]

1Jo 4:1-3 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

So I'm thinking that it has something to do with confession of Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. For instance, apply that in Narnia. You have Aslan, coming in the flesh, and dying as a sacrifice for all. So, though it allegory it is clearly an example of Jesus Christ coming in the flesh, and therefore the spirit of that story is of God.

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EDIT: I took out the 2nd adam thing, I have heard of the term but I want to research it more, in the Bible, before I consider it a valid term.

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited March 07, 2006).]

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

*edit* Gamer4christ, have you read the Harry Potter books?

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited March 07, 2006).]

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"And he shall take to cleanse the house two birds, and cedar-wood, and scarlet, and hyssop. And he shall kill one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water. And he shall take the cedar-wood, and the hyssop, and the scarlet, and the living bird, and dip them in the blood of the slain bird, and in the running water, and sprinkle the house seven times. And he shall cleanse the house with the blood of the bird, and with the running water, and with the living bird..."

Do you believe that as well? I'm not trying to test you, I just want to know. I seriously thought the only people who really believed in magic were depressed goth chicks trying to get revenge on people. Well, people like that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Ereon:
The Bible doesn't mention it, so I'm not going to go there, lets try to keep this as black and white as possible please.

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Well it's just that alot of people could just say "well it's not mentioned in the Bible so it's ok", I'm not saying you have, but we still haven't said what magic really is, if magic is a power other than God (summoning demons) then telekenesis fits in that category. Telekenesis is used in alot of sci-fi movies and stuff (Star Wars and X-Men), if it's something supernatural other than God then it's the magic the Bible is referring to, IMO. They may not call it magic, but a rose but any other name is still a rose.

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited March 07, 2006).]

In X-Men, yeah, and in pseudo-science, yeah. In SW i guess its more with the force, but still very mental, rather than "spooky" magic.

So you could say that if God wanted us to be masters of the earth, there's no legitimate reason why we shouldn't be able to "bend spoons" or move things with our minds. I've seen some junk on the Discovry Channel about it, and the science that is (theoretically) behind it.

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"I bleed black tears"

Will the emo kids be my friends now?

However bottom line is that no one should not try to use any powers or get involed with any spirits that are not of God.

Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

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Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
The Bible says you can clean the plague from your house with the blood of a dead bird.

*snip*

Do you believe that as well? I'm not trying to test you, I just want to know. I seriously thought the only people who really believed in magic were depressed goth chicks trying to get revenge on people. Well, people like that.

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What I find somewhat more interesting (and personally harder to imagine in my mind's eye) is the test for adultery in Numbers 5:11-31. Basically, they write out a curse in a book, then wash the curse off into some water, she accepts the conditions of the curse and then drinks it, and if she's guilty of adultery, she'll have great pain and will no longer be able to bear children, but if she's been faithful to her husband, then she'll suffer no ill effects.

The Old Testament is a very interesting mix of ritual and inner faith action. One of the clearest examples is how the scriptures are very clear to say that circumcision of the flesh is nothing, while circumcision of the heart is everything (if you read many of the prophets -- it talks about this often). The actions that people were commanded to perform were to help people remember the symbolism better. The Old Testament is largely a picture book -- many of these actions are symbolic pictures of inner change that must take place.

I would like to show one more example to make this point clear.

One great example of a "ritualistic miracle" is back when Moses was leading the Israelites through the wilderness, and they grumbled against God, so He sent "firey serpents" among them. Their bites were killing the people, and cried out and repented. So rather than just removing the serpents, God gave them an action to go with their faith -- if anyone was bitten by one of these poisonous snakes, they could lift up their eyes and look upon a bronze snake that Moses fashioned and elevated on a pole. This is the same symbol that Blue Cross Blue Shield uses in their logo (note the snake in their shield -- that's what this references). Kindof wierd, isn't it? That looking at a bronze snake would somehow cure your snakebite?

However, the Bible makes it very clear that the snake held no power in itself -- it was just a symbol of what God was doing for them. Later on in scripture (in the book of Judges to be specific), there was a group of people who had gotten the original snake that Moses made and revered it to the point that they believed the snake and the action of looking on the snake would help them -- basically they idolized the snake. It's clear that this was wrong, and so when the judge (I forget which judge this was, I don't think it was Gideon) purged the idols from the land of Israel -- that one was destroyed along with the others.

Those people had mistaken the *ritual* for the *reason*. So yes, there were rituals in the Old Testament, and yes, God worked through them. Do I believe that people today can cleanse their house from SARS or something by performing the dead bird ritual you referenced? Probably not, no. But do I believe that God worked through the faith that was in people's hearts when they performed that ritual at the time that God told them they could? Yes, yes I do.

I hope I explained that in a way that sounded reasonable and made sense.

Thanks for asking your hard questions! As always, I appreciate being kept sharp. If I'm being unreasonable or illogical about something in my thinking, please straighten me out.

Respectfully,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited March 08, 2006).]

And what is important to notice (off topic) is that today God is offering forgiviness of sins through His son Jesus Christ so that no one has to do these kinds of works but just rely on God's grace. Not because the law would have been changed or removed but because God saw that so is good.

In Christ,
Jari.

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Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited March 08, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by jari:
HanClinto, your explanation seems correct to me and I'm just adding (or conluding) that in OT people's faith and repentance was shown in their works. I believe this is what Clint was talking about, please correct me if I'm wrong.

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Right. Show your faith by your actions. The key thing about cleansing one's house with the blood of a dead bird was that it was faith in God that if they did what He told them to do, He would be faithful to them. We often think of magic as there being power in the ritual or the action that we perform. These rituals and actions were present in the O.T., but it's very clear that the power behind them was not some mystical sort of magic, but rather the power of God realized in the lives of those who put their trust in God.

quote:

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Originally posted by jari:
And what is important to notice (off topic) is that today God is offering forgiviness of sins through His son Jesus Christ so that no one has to do these kinds of works but just rely on God's grace. Not because the law would have been changed or removed but because God saw that so is good.

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Just to clarify, I think it was still faith in the OT that gave forgiveness of sins. Abraham was justified by his faith, not by his works. Cleansing of one's heart, repentance from sin, and trust in the forgiveness of God has always been the salvation message preached throughout the whole Bible -- from Genesis through Revelation.

<sidenote>The Old Testament is a lot richer in grace than many people realize. People think that the "God of the Old Testament was a cruel and mean God, and the God of the New Testament is kind and loving" -- that's just not the case. God's mercy was just as evident in the Old Testament as it was in the New. There will be more wrath and judgement to come -- it's not all daisies and honeysuckles from here on out.</sidenote>

Cheers!

In Christ,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited March 08, 2006).]

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" I hat typos..." - gamer4christ
"TROOPER: umm... CyBob and BIL are fighting over whose dead." - Realm Master

[This message has been edited by questleader (edited March 08, 2006).]

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

we really need to look at what is wrong with magic. it's not the name, obviously. I don't think anyone here views slight of hand magic tricks as demonic. chemistry in the old days was viewed by many to be magic. for one, it really is a remnant of a superstitious times. however, what is wrong with "true" magic is that it calls upon the powers of demons. now, in most fantasy magics, that element isn't existent. it's mostly an ability or skill acquired. you really can't say "oh, but they really are calling on demons" because it is a fictional story and this is an imaginative element. if they are calling on demons or spirits, I can see that as a strong enough parallel.
now, if you are uncomfortable or view it as wrong, by all means, stay away from it. but I don't see it as necessarily evil just because, in fictional stories, they call it magic.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

To broaden the question, let's consider why science fiction is often associated with fantasy. Both tend to deal with people or creatures/machines being capable of some "unnatural" feat, with the only real difference appearing in the means by which this is achieved (speculated future/parallel technology v. alternative natural laws). Without rambling too much, I'll just belt out the question: What is the difference between science and sorcery?

Han, if it's the faith that matters, and not the method, why kill a defenceless bird at all? If it's really God's will that cleans the house of the plague, why not just ask and receive? With enough faith-points saved up of course.

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Both C.S. Lewis and Tolkein were following what God was leading them to do when they wrote their books

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maybe so, but Tolkein said LOTR was *NOT* a Christian allegory, Lewis did say such of Narnia.

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http://www.jeremysouthard.org

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[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited March 08, 2006).]

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maybe so, but Tolkein said LOTR was *NOT* a Christian allegory, Lewis did say such of Narnia.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
Han, if it's the faith that matters, and not the method, why kill a defenceless bird at all? If it's really God's will that cleans the house of the plague, why not just ask and receive?

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I don't know for sure, but I think one of the easy reasons why God might do something that way is because it's such a powerful image -- a picture that is very present in a person's mind.

The Old Testament sacrifices made it very clear that they weren't just pointless sacrifices, and that God didn't want them because He's sadistic or something. He says several times that what He wants is our hearts, not just our sacrifices.

In the Bible, killing is always regretable, and always brings sorrow. This includes the killing of people all the way down to the killing of animals. The Fall of Adam was what brought sin and death into the world, and it's had reprocussions from then until now (and will continue to do so).

So one visual picture that the sacrifices had was letting people know that it was for *their* sins that these animals were being killed, and that it was for *their* guilt that this blood was (regrettably) being shed. This is reiterated in the New Testament (as in Acts 3) where the bloodguilt of Jesus' death is put upon the people listening -- many of whom were present at Jesus' crucifixion. It was because of the Israelite's sin that any of the animals were being killed, just as it was because of our sin that Jesus was slain.

So to answer your question more succinctly, I think it's because it's a more powerful picture that way, and helps people to better feel the seriousness of their sin against God.

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
With enough faith-points saved up of course.

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Of course.

Respectfully,
clint

Now if you are merely talking about witchcraft then I would have to agree. The bible is pretty clear about the evil nature of witches, fortune tellers, etc...

Just my quick two cents.

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Originally posted by mastallama:
maybe so, but Tolkein said LOTR was *NOT* a Christian allegory, Lewis did say such of Narnia.

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Lewis didn't say it was an allegory either, but a supposal (suppose Jesus came to another world).

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited March 08, 2006).]

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
It says they sacrifice the animals because it makes a nice smell for God. Since nobody does that anymore, I guess it wasn't THAT good of a reminder. Phew.

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The Bible describes sacrifices as a pleasing aroma, but if you think that's all there was to it, then you wouldn't be the first one to miss the point. Many prophets dealt with people who thought that the sacrifice was the main point -- they chose to do the sacrifices (if they even did this), but didn't care about really loving God or obeying His commandments (such as loving your neighbor as yourself). People like this were equivalent to today's Bible-thumping hippocrites -- they acknowledged God with their showy Sabbath-day actions ("Look at me, I go to church!"), but they didn't really live it out in the rest of the week. Check out what Hosea has to say on the issue:

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Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

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See what Jeremiah had to say about it:

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Jeremiah 7:21-26 (NIRV)
21The Lord who rules over all is the God of Israel. He says, "Go ahead! Add your burnt offerings to your other sacrifices. Eat the meat yourselves! 22When I brought your people out of Egypt, I spoke to them. But I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices. 23I also gave them another command. I said, 'Obey me. Then I will be your God. And you will be my people. Live the way I command you to live. Then things will go well with you.'

24"But they did not listen. They refused to pay any attention to me. Instead, they did what their stubborn and evil hearts wanted them to do. They went backward and not forward.

25"Again and again I sent my servants the prophets to you. They came to you day after day. They prophesied from the time your people left Egypt until now.

26"But the people did not listen. They refused to pay any attention to me. They were stubborn. They did more evil things than their people who lived before them.

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The point was not the sacrifice, the point was the heart. This is a continual theme throughout the Old Testament -- I'm not just prooftexting here. Check out the psalms:

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Psalm 51:16-17
16 You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it;
you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings.

17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart,
O God, you will not despise.

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This was a recurring problem that was addressed all throughout history -- people thought the sacrifices themselves were pleasing to God, but the real thing that is pleasing is our hearts. "Come to me all you who are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" -- that's what He's calling you and me to do. He hasn't changed His message, from the beginning of the Old Testament all the way through to today.

Everything that was before was a shadow of what was to come -- all of those messy and awful sacrifices that people did in an effort to cleanse their sins wasn't good enough, and couldn't ever be -- it was all a foreshadowing of the perfect sacrifice that was to come in Jesus Christ.

Here's a somewhat long passage (apologies -- it's really good though!) -- if you don't read the whole thing, at least skim it and try to understand how it shows how continuous the message has been from the Old Testament through the New.

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Hebrews 10:1-12 (NIRV)
1The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming. It is not the real things themselves. The same sacrifices have to be offered over and over again. They must be offered year after year. That's why the law can never make perfect those who come near to worship. 2If it could, wouldn't the sacrifices have stopped being offered? The worshipers would have been made clean once and for all time. They would not have felt guilty for their sins anymore.

3But those offerings remind people of their sins every year. 4It isn't possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5So when Christ came into the world, he said,
"You didn't want sacrifices and offerings.
Instead, you prepared a body for me.
6You weren't pleased
with burnt offerings and sin offerings.
7Then I said, 'Here I am. It is written about me in the scroll.
God, I have come to do what you want.' " (Psalm 40:6 8)

8First Christ said, "You didn't want sacrifices and offerings. You didn't want burnt offerings and sin offerings. You weren't pleased with them." He said that even though the law required people to bring them. 9Then he said, "Here I am. I have come to do what you want." He did away with the first. He did it to put the second in place.

10We have been made holy by what God wanted. We have been made holy because Jesus Christ offered his body once and for all time.

11Day after day every priest stands and does his special duties. He offers the same sacrifices again and again. But they can never take away sins.

12Jesus our priest offered one sacrifice for sins for all time. Then he sat down at the right hand of God. 13Since that time, he waits for his enemies to be put under his control. 14By that one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

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Thanks, Cheese! I hope this post wasn't too long -- I'm trying to honestly answer your question well, but not overwhelm you with gobs of text.

Respectfully,
clint

Edit: Fixed some of the formatting

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited March 09, 2006).]

Edit:
Good verse references Clint.

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Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited March 09, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by jari (edited March 09, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ereon:
Ok, here comes the heavy stuff. What do you think about demons being able to use TV, video games, computer games, books, ect, to move and mess people up. Personally, from experience I think that it happens quite often. Have you ever been watching a movie or playing a game when something just kinda grabs you in a very disturbing way and your spirit man just goes "WHOA! Wait a minute now!"? I suppose the best example would be the spirit of fear that grips you when you watch a horror movie or something like that, you can just kinda feel it latch onto and hook you, anyone know what I mean?

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Yeah and I have to say that you shouldnt give your mind to those horrow films and such. But focus on pure things instead, for satan has no place near Holy spirit.

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Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

quote:

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Originally posted by jari:
Yeah and I have to say that you shouldnt give your mind to those horrow films and such. But focus on pure things instead, for satan has no place near Holy spirit.

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Yes, I totally agree, don't watch horror films if you don't want the spirit of fear ruling your life.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

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quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
Bah. Admit to having flaws, ask forgiveness, kill a cow.

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Or a goat if you're poor, or two pigeons if you're *really* poor. It didn't always have to be a cow. Like the Old Testament prophet Hosea said, God desires our obedience above our sacrifice. Without a heart that is following God, then the sacrifices are meaningless. That's what Hosea and the other prophets were saying.

Of what value is a great sacrifice if their is no repentant heart behind it? A king's sacrifice of a hundred prize bulls is no better than a poor widow's sacrifice of two pigeons as long as a truly humble and repentant heart accompanies each.

And only God can be judge of what's truly in someone's heart when they ask forgiveness. That's what really matters, and I can't be a judge of whether you or anyone else has the right heart -- only God is the true and perfect judge of that. Make no mistake, we will all be judged.

Respectfully,
clint

and um whoever mentioned movies grabbing you
watch Decieved sometime it has something in it kinda like that
and i dont mean it does it to you i mean the actor

getting to telekinessis now
i believe that if you have faith enough that god will move something he will move it. i think it might be mentioned in end times stuff too not sure though

magic in games i dont think is "bad" either unless its got all the chanting and stuff like that. i made a game once that i never finished but the "magic" in it was like holy magic or something that god sends to aid you.

im done now not bad for a fourth post huh?
edit my mistake fifth post

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The meaning of life is... ummmm....
oh wait i just had it!

[This message has been edited by Crazed Madman (edited March 10, 2006).]

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

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Originally posted by Crazed Madman:
and if your extremaly poor a mouse will do?

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Possibly -- I'm just stating what was written in the Old Testament. It actually specified all the way down to pigeons if that's all you could afford.

To ArchAngel's post under this one:
Oh, you know what I mean!

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited March 11, 2006).]

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

quote:

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
Gah, I still can't believe this, I mean, it's the priests who wrote the thing, and they get free steaks out of it, that's why the animals were so popular.

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As far as who wrote the rules down for the sacrificial law, Moses dictated them, but he didn't directly benefit from the "free steaks" I don't think. It was the priests (Levites) who got the "free steaks". If anything, Moses got overworked and people grumbled against him in return. I don't think any number of free steaks would make me want his job -- it was a tough row to hoe.

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I'd have slightly more respect for this religion if it was like "Embrace God in your heart... and plant a tree as a reminder!"

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I hope you can see that the Bible's not about rules -- it really is about the heart. All of those scriptues I listed a couple of posts ago are about the heart. God doesn't care about the sacrifices in and of themselves -- he cares about our hearts. Jesus said it well.

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Matthew 22:34-40
The Pharisees heard that the Sadducees weren't able to answer Jesus. So the Pharisees got together. One of them was an authority on the law. So he tested Jesus with a question. "Teacher," he asked, "which is the most important commandment in the Law?"

Jesus replied, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your mind.'(Deuteronomy 6:5) This is the first and most important commandment. And the second is like it. 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'(Leviticus 19:18) Everything that is written in the Law and the Prophets is based on these two commandments."

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Note: the "Law" refers to the sacrificial system and all of the other Old Testament regulations -- they were asking a similar question to what you're asking: "What's really important from the Old Testament -- what's the point of all that?"

Other translations render that last part as something like: "The entire law is summed up in these two commandments."

So going back to your comment, no, I suppose it doesn't say plant a tree directly, but it does command us to be the absolute best people we can be. Love God with all of our being, and love others as we would ourselves. Would we like others to plant trees for us? Then we should plant trees for them.

I don't think I'm stretching the verses to say that, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

I believe the scriptures are saying something beyond and superior to what you are conjecturing.

Respectfully,
clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited March 11, 2006).]

quote:

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Originally posted by HanClinto:
I hope you can see that the Bible's not about rules -- it really is about the heart. All of those scriptues I listed a couple of posts ago are about the heart. God doesn't care about the sacrifices in and of themselves -- he cares about our hearts. Jesus said it well.

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Yes, the rules and laws were for the people. Like a loving father God gave us instructions how to avoid evil and choose good but when they didnt obey but chose evil, God had a plan how to turn them away from sin and He wanted to make a lesson (by making them perform sacrifices) which they remember so that they wouldnt go back sinning. And while fear of the Lord was great and people kept His commandments for sometime then they (those who didnt care about knowing God) eventually went astray.

And when they gave up on the law God did everything He could but because of their God given free will some just didnt repent:

Isa 1:5 Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.

Spanking a kid or some other punishment may work for some one but only to those who understand that its for their own good:

Pro 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a wise man than an hundred stripes into a fool.

So as you can see God had given perfect law, instructions on how-to-live-your-life but man was not interested on these perfect instructions but wanted to go on his own way which is the way of death.

And now we are at stage two of God's amazing plan for the salvation of those who believe:

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

God has shown us that we are not able to follow law so He isnt asking us to follow the law anymore, but just simply believe!

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

If you dont understand you need to humble your self and repent, Jesus Christ is the only way to Father, He is the truth and the life, resurrection and only by He's blood our sins may be washed away.

My sins are washed away thanks to God's grace, this is a free gift and the new foundation of my life because what Jesus has placed in my heart is so real that I cannot deny Him even I wanted to and I speak the truth.

In Christ,
Jari.

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A Game to combine all Games A Game that grows upon itself But A Game that ultimately in the end makes and forces one to ask themselves "Why?"

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!