Wars are started by people that go away from Christian teachings. As the saying goes power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Many times on the news you see a while person committing an act of terrorism and they automatically say he is Christian which is not the case in what they practice or what they state they are. If it talks like a duck, looks like a duck, and walks like a duck then it is a duck.

Christ did not say to go to war and fight for him. The crusades as I stated before is not a war about religion against Muslims but about better trade with Muslims and to ransack the Christians Orthodox city in Constantinople which was one of the top Christian holy places. Which the attack was used to steal the Religious artifact and gold, and weaken its defenses for the Muslims to invade and enslave the first Christian empire which would only get help from the catholic church if they converted which they did not, but a few years ago the Pope John Paul said that the Catholic church is sorry for what they did. The crusades used religion to make them want to fight for a cause and if they told them it’s just for cheaper and better trade and for them to be rich on the side by attacking another Christian nation, then you can not motivate or move the people. Unchristian rulers in every sense lie to motivate Christians to do unchristian things.

The notion of forcing people to convert has historically been done by the Catholic and Protestant denominations which has failed and the method that has helped convert many may have worked to force people or to let them die but that is not a Christian. The means justify the ends which is a Christian view, and not the other way around to say that the ends justify the means which is a non Christian view stated famously by Machiavelli. Like a saying goes you can get more flies with honey than vinegar.

Again these are leaders that have distorted Christianity, and Christ does not show one example that what they do is right but many examples that show that what they do is wrong. What they do is automatically mislead many to the religion in why they join and convert to a distorted view of it. People that cause wars lean more to be more atheistic or nihilistic which is the case most of the times. Some atheist might disagree but the atheist (a religion as stated by the courts) doesn’t have restrictions and is like a bad ruler that turns a blind eye to everything. Only when Christian Law is taken to affect then the masses follow as if it is common sense which is why they follow it, but that is what Christianity is about as well to be logical. Just because it is does not seem logical to some is because they are illogical. Imperfection can not judge perfection, but perfection and judge what is imperfect.

Forcing people to convert is like the Muslim religion which has been telling people to convert or die and many Christians have literally jumped off a cliff or been beheaded than convert to save their soul than to save their skin. The irony about it recently is that you have a well intentioned smart conservative Protestant woman like Ann Coulter that attacks the Muslim religion and points out how messed up it is in its ideology, but she then acts like them to say that the US should kill their religious Muslim leaders and forcefully convert them to Christianity.

Christianity is being attacked always from non Christians and Christians that don’t know better. Christianity is against vengeance as stated many times in the New testament but people should not confuse it with the old testament which some seem to follow. Christ was not praised by the Jews since he was not a God of war, but a God of peace and love. Or the Muslim religion where the word Koran means peace they say but it does not say the word love in the entire book, and you can not have peace without love. As the bible (NT) indicates in a way that good brings good and bad bring bad. To have a war only has degrees of looses not gain, and in every war Christians have the most to loose and have lost the most.

Look at history or you will be doomed to repeat it, as the saying goes. Christianity has helped liberate people in revolutionary wars and had priests as main roles in the wars. Wars now push away priest’s views, since this distortion of separation of church and state. And that separation was intended for the government not to impose and dictate to the church but for the church to have an ability preach.

I can go on and on with many of examples but I hope people get it. I am sure some will agree and some will not as always but as originally stated there is no real holy war just twisted people that use Christianity for their own purpose.

PS. As for the post about marrying animals, the women was most likely married in an Orthodox Jewish ceremony in Israel which as stated "As civil marriage does not exist in Israel, the only institutionalized form of marriage in Israel is the religious one”. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_view_of_marriage
I hope they don't circumcise the dolphin.

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited January 21, 2006).]

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

And didn't Christ say he wasn't going to change any of the old stuff?
So how does Eye for Eye -> Turn the other Cheek? Or did he start changing it, so then the Jews owned him up? Yeah, I wouldn't like it if people tried taking my converts away, but of course I don't have a religion so I don't have that stupid problem.

And since I'm a non-Christian I must flip out and kill people every day and fund shady non-Christian agencies bent on corrupting the world. All that **** the Church did (Inquisition, Crusades, etc.) was definitely not in the "What Would Jesus Do?" spirit, but the Church is still responsible.

Religion is so sickening to me, we are all just human beings, but that's not enough, we have to divide into our retarded little sects and label ourselves to fit in with one another. Why? Because it's comfortable being in a group, and we all want the same things, more or less.

The teachings are good. The division is bad. It'd be great if we could take all the good teachings and live by them without any "You'll burn while I'm in Heaven" ******** . Buddhism has so much to offer, but just cause it's not Christianity a lot of people see it as blasphemy or whatever, including that ignorant former pope.

So go and pray and know you're right, cause that's what all the other monotheistic religions are doing. And I'll just keep Lol-ing at the idea of a loving God in a system where non-believers are tortured forever.

And most of the time when I say "religion" I'm talking about a belief system involving spirits, angels, bogeymen and all that crap, since some of you will argue that believing in nothing is still a belief.

Mmmm. Rantalicious.

I haven't posted in a while, but I thought I'd post some answers as best as I can give them.

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
Haha, God kills so many people in the Bible, I can see why you're trying to distance yourself from the Old Testament. Fiery snakes dropping from the sky? Ingenious, but not very peaceful.

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God is immutable, and I don't see why we would need to distance ourselves from the Old Testament (nor would it do any good, since it describes so much of the foundation on which we are built).

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And didn't Christ say he wasn't going to change any of the old stuff?
So how does Eye for Eye -> Turn the other Cheek?

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It's a great question, and one which I haven't quite figured out. However, one might find some solace in knowing that those two verses that you're referencing come from the same chapter in Matthew, so it's not like Jesus said one and then said the other a year or two later -- they were in the same teaching.

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All that **** the Church did (Inquisition, Crusades, etc.) was definitely not in the "What Would Jesus Do?" spirit, but the Church is still responsible.

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I agree that these are atrocities.

Out of curiosity, do you blame your family as hard as you blame the church? You know, for the years of slavery, torture, and heinous acts of violence that your family is responsible for? (such as slavery if you're "white" or for the deposition of the Native American Indians if you live on US soil?)

Christians are sinners too -- and I agree, the pharisitical churchy kind annoy me too. Some of the most frustrating people I've met in my life have been Christians, but that shouldn't surprise me. Christians are forgiven and are being made better, but it doesn't mean that they've attained perfection or that they won't royally screw up.

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Religion is so sickening to me, we are all just human beings, but that's not enough, we have to divide into our retarded little sects and label ourselves to fit in with one another. Why? Because it's comfortable being in a group, and we all want the same things, more or less.

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So it sounds like you're not frustrated with religion as much as you're frustrated with "religiosity" (also known as "churchiness"). I have to say I agree with you -- there are many things about church and denomination that really frustrate me (but there are good things too, but you really have to shop around, and no group is perfect).

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The teachings are good. The division is bad. It'd be great if we could take all the good teachings and live by them without any "You'll burn while I'm in Heaven" ******** . Buddhism has so much to offer, but just cause it's not Christianity a lot of people see it as blasphemy or whatever, including that ignorant former pope.

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People rarely will believe outright falsehoods -- the way to get someone to believe something false is to mix a whole lot of truth with just enough bad. Have you ever listened to what Hitler preached? It made a *lot* of sense.

Siddhartha Guatama taught a lot of good things, and people can learn a lot from it. There is a lot of truth in what Buddhism teaches, and just because Buddhas teach the Golden Rule doesn't mean that it's heresy that others (including Christians) shouldn't follow either.

Side note: I think that if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, that I would probably be Buddhist. Buddhism says a lot of great stuff, but if a dude performs miracles, is murdered in public and then rises from the dead 40 hours later, I think I should probably listen to what that guy says.
It's not that I think my religion is "easier" or "more loving" or whatever than anyone else's -- it's just that it's truth, and truth is what I'm chasing (though I don't think I've totally found it yet).

Good to see you on the boards, Cheese -- thanks for keeping us sharp.

Cheers!

--clint

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited January 21, 2006).]

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Haha, God kills so many people in the Bible, I can see why you're trying to distance yourself from the Old Testament. Fiery snakes dropping from the sky? Ingenious, but not very peaceful.

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So how does Eye for Eye -> Turn the other Cheek?

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All that **** the Church did (Inquisition, Crusades, etc.) was definitely not in the "What Would Jesus Do?" spirit, but the Church is still responsible.

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The teachings are good. The division is bad. It'd be great if we could take all the good teachings and live by them without any "You'll burn while I'm in Heaven" ********

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forcing someone to believe something is wrong. we all agreed upon that. however, if we believe someone is going to heaven, it is not because we want to. why would we? I'd love it if everybody got to go to heaven, but it's not true. you might believe something else, but this is about the christian views. so, now we're suddenly demonized when we try to show people the way out of it? forgive me if I laugh at that logic. that's like beating up the firemen when your house is on fire. if you want to preach about accepting other's viewpoints, start by accepting the fact that we are trying to help people by sharing the gospel. a little thought will clear that issue up. it's not like we customize our religion to whatever fits our needs best, although, I'll admit some of us do. we're on a search for truth. If gravity keeps up on this earth, I'll believe it, no matter how insensitive it is to the people who wish they could levitate.

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And I'll just keep Lol-ing at the idea of a loving God in a system where non-believers are tortured forever.

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yes, rantalicious... my favorite.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

Ah thanks for clearing up the Eye For Eye thing. I really thought it was just the rule of thumb for everybody, not just the authorities.

I don't think my family has enslaved or tortured anyone (without a time machine I can't know for sure). So yes, I blame the Church for more. If one of my ancestors ever beat up someone, it wouldn't compare to launching a war over some holy land.

Like Arch said, people kill. There would still be violence without religion. Even hamsters have disagreements. You can gather a violent mob and put a persuasive leader in charge, and bad stuff will happen without any mention of gods and after-lives. But we can all agree those extremists wouldn't blow themselves up without knowing they're going to heaven. Again, that's the fault of a violent mob, but their faith unites them, and gives them a reason to do what they do. And when there's only one sect left, it'll divide itself and everything will start over.

I still think it'd be best to take the good ideas ("don't kill folk") and leave behind the supernatural parts. If all Buddha teaches is how to get rid of desires and be truly happy, why can't we just cut all the karma and reincarnation crap out of Buddhism? Cause there has to be an explanation for what happens after death, and nobody will admit they don't know, despite not being dead. "You rot in the ground" doesn't sound as nice as "you chill with God" or "a busload of virgins will sex you up". Now all that's left for the mob is to find a way to chill with God...

As for the Falling Rocks signs... in terms of religion you'd drive past a sign saying "Blue rocks are the only ones that will harm you, according to our old book" followed later by "Ignore the other sign, only red rocks are dangerous, our book is better" followed by two mobs beating the crap out of each other with their signs.

It does suck when people resent you for doing what you believe is right. It's a shame nobody has any proof. "But what about the resurrection, don't you think it's a FAAAAAACT?" Well, I'll just say I think the Earth shook when Jesus died about as much as it did when Buddha became enlightened. They can't just focus on the message, they gotta bring out the fireworks.

Eh better sum this up. People kill people for a reason, and living forever in heaven is a popular one. People will also kill each other over a can of beans, so religion isn't entirely to blame. A good afterlife can be found many ways, and while none are proven, all of them are a very nice concept for their followers. So we all want the same things, but can't look past our differences. Humanity has done a lot of lame things but I haven't lost faith in us yet.

*edit* All this "Keep the Ideas/Cut the Crap" stuff I'm going on about, is this what secular humanism is? Gaaaah.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited January 22, 2006).]

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So how does Eye for Eye -> Turn the other Cheek?

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To put this into context you have to understand the nuances. In the Jewish culture a slap to face was a personal insult, not an attempt at bodily harm. Slaves might expect to be slapped many times (btw, slavery in the jewish culture was quite different from modern slavery). Jesus actually had his disciples purchase swords (Luke 22:35-38). At the same time he made clear that violence shouldn't be the only answer; there is balance: "Those who live by the sword shall perish by the sword" (Matthew 26:52) More to the point than the fact that the three other Gospel accounts of the confrontation in Gethsemane do not contain the exhortation that those who live by the sword shall perish by the sword is the clear inference that Christ had authorized Peter to carry a sword in the first place! Does anyone seriously believe that being armed was solely Peter’s decision, or that he had kept this three-foot blade of his a secret from the rest of the group? Jesus says to love your enemies. Showing kindness to an enemy who is trying to personally insult you by slapping you or making you carry their heavy stuff a mile is probably one of the best ways to reach them.

Also, the 3 instances where the OT uses the "eye for eye" phrasing God is speaking directly to Moses and one is actually in regards to the punishment for harming an unborn child.

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Quote from Cheesestorm:
Religion is so sickening to me, we are all just human beings, but that's not enough, we have to divide into our retarded little sects and label ourselves to fit in with one another. Why? Because it's comfortable being in a group, and we all want the same things, more or less.

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Well if you ever want to get at the truth of anything. Having that attitude is not a good way of getting there. You'll only be driven by your emotions.

We are human beings, but you assume that us humans are merely animals. But we know that there must be more... and we long for it. I believe that God has clearly shown us who He is through the beauty and diversity of nature, of life, our natural sense of justice, and mostly when I look into myself. It is undeniable that us humans are fearfully and wonderfully created.

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Quote from Cheesestorm:
The teachings are good. The division is bad. It'd be great if we could take all the good teachings and live by them without any "You'll burn while I'm in Heaven" ******** . Buddhism has so much to offer, but just cause it's not Christianity a lot of people see it as blasphemy or whatever, including that ignorant former pope.

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What good are good teachings? They don't get us too far anyway. Who listens? What good would it do for every human to know the truth but be powerless to obey it? What we really need is transformation.

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Quote from Cheesestorm:
Well, I'll just say I think the Earth shook when Jesus died about as much as it did when Buddha became enlightened. They can't just focus on the message, they gotta bring out the fireworks.

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Well it really doesn't matter what you say. What matters is what really happens. The resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the best attested facts of history. But it doesn't sound like you care.

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Quote from warsong:
Christianity is being attacked always from non Christians and Christians that don’t know better. Christianity is against vengeance as stated many times in the New testament but people should not confuse it with the old testament which some seem to follow.

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Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!

We are both awestruck by nature's deceptively simple designs . Where you see the soul, I see the ghost in the machine, but none of us sneer at the human brain or its potential. Do you think humanity's curiosity in the unknown could help bring everyone closer together? Maybe a silly question... there is probably a village being machete'd by rebels while we discuss this. It must be very hard to gain a foothold in those troubled places, but I think technology is great for bringing people together.

YES I am still somewhat on topic (prevention of war). Emphasizing our similarities and downplaying our differences, at least the irrelevant ones (color for example)... Rules make rebels, and not enough rules makes, well, you know. Things now are better than the Dark Ages, I would like to thank science for that. Too bad medicine won't solve our deeper problems... like you said, knowing what they are isn't enough, we have to choose to change.

What a pickle we are in. To think alike without feeling restrained would solve a lot of problems, I think. Now I must go study for my physics final... no sneers from the college crew, please.

Er yeah, summary is, spread the internet as much as possible. It's the only way to bring this planet together. I know I know, easier said than done, but I can't think of a better way.

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Eh, I was saying that dividing into sects was a bad thing compared to everyone getting along, since we all need the same things, but go after them in different ways.

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Well I agree halfway there. Mainly because it depends on what your goal actually was. If there was no life after death, then it would make sense for us all to join together and make up our own ways of going after the things we all want in life. In effect a government (or any organization that helps run the world system) would be more important than any single person. But in reality I don't believe this to be the case. If there is an afterlife (as I think there is), then a religion made by man is the last thing that I would put my eternal destiny in.

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We are both awestruck by nature's deceptively simple designs .

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I think it's cool that you notice that nature is deceptively simple. But it sounds like you know how complex it really is... this is quite interesting. I think if there is a religion that is true, then it would seem simple, but underneath that, it would be complex just as nature (perhaps even more-so), and for the very same reasons. (C.S. Lewis' explains this in "Mere Christianity." I suggest you give it a look )

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Where you see the soul, I see the ghost in the machine, but none of us sneer at the human brain or its potential.

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Are you saying that you believe there is a part of a human that is... spiritual? If so then we see the same things there. I see the human body as the greatest machine ever created... and I'm so glad that I have the opportunity to operate one.

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Do you think humanity's curiosity in the unknown could help bring everyone closer together?

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I would hope so, but I kind of doubt it. Well it would help with some people. But there will always be those who are content in living in their own small world just the way things are...

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YES I am still somewhat on topic (prevention of war). Emphasizing our similarities and downplaying our differences, at least the irrelevant ones (color for example)... Rules make rebels, and not enough rules makes, well, you know.

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Well... I'm completely off topic... sorry warsong! Yeah there's no sense in having rules if there is no relationship between the lawgiver and those whom it's given to. So basically rules make rebels only if the Lawgiver "(notice the capital L )" and the people that the Law is given to aren't in the right relationship.

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Things now are better than the Dark Ages, I would like to thank science for that. Too bad medicine won't solve our deeper problems... like you said, knowing what they are isn't enough, we have to choose to change.

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The growth of science has helped out in some amazing ways, and I too am thankful for that. But also, with the good comes the bad. The one thing that I hate more than almost anything is the murder of unborn children... and what's just as bad is the apathy towards it. Man may gain knowledge, and that is a great thing, but with more good things comes the possibility for more badness or we could call that, "the perverting of good things." It seems that with more knowledge man becomes more dangerous, he finds more sophisticated ways of doing evil.

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like you said, knowing what they are isn't enough, we have to choose to change.

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Er yeah, summary is, spread the internet as much as possible. It's the only way to bring this planet together.

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I agree half-way again. I think that the easier ways that humans have access to each other, then the easier it will be for us to show who we really are to each other, and let's be honest, that isn't a pretty picture. I mean what difference would it make that we are all together if we are just going to lie to, be jealous of, steal from, and basically hurt each other? I mean that we must change, something inside us must become radically different. But I don't believe that we can do this on our own. I think that the only one capable of fixing the defect is the very Creator of us humans. But we have to be willing to let Him do it.

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Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited January 24, 2006).]

The complex things are usually ones we still have to learn more about (like life on Earth, or the Universe). Wouldn't a religion be only as complex as its creator wanted it to be? Adding too many ingredients would be asking for trouble.

I don't think there is anything spiritual or supernatural about our brain. The ghost in the machine is (in my clumsy definition) a consciousness that arises from a brain, which is of course made of (very unconscious) bits of inanimate matter. Creation/Evolution aside, we are self-aware clumps of clay. If our AI ever gets good enough, we could build machines with their own "ghosts" (would this be a side-effect or intentional?). But for the moment, we're the only clumps of clay that generate moral issues for themselves.

The killing of unborn babies isn't just for the helluvit. It is sad to snatch life away from something that hasn't experienced it yet, but I feel worse for the people who have spent their whole lives in a crippled or paralyzed body, with their mind intact as a silent witness. It is a sucky issue, but the knowledge isn't just so we can hand out awards and pat ourselves on the back. I hear we can get stem cells without using human embryos... and also that it'll be a long while before the other methods become practical. A long time to sit around in a broken body... If I was crippled and thought stem cells could re-grow the severed part of my spine, it'd really suck to hear that unconscious embryos were a higher priority than the people who were already suffering. Or is it part of your God's plan to have them waste away in a wheelchair? I just sympathize more with conscious people.

My suggestions for change, oh boy... the tens of thousands of dollars spent yearly on keeping each murderer very much alive in prison would be put to use helping people who actually deserve to live. Promotions based on skill, not status. Protesters are forced to take IQ tests before being allowed to scream. I'm not too sure about this one, but in areas with a lot of internet access, the people could vote on issues instead of electing noobs to do it for them. This would be inviting to hackers interested in getting 1,000 free votes somehow, so security would be an issue. Our politicians change their minds to get more support from the people, but the people don't change their minds too much, so let them decide.

Mass produce cheap solar panels and improve them later! None of this five-hundred-bucks-per-square-metre crap! Everybody plants one tree a week, just to see what happens!

Kinda like it does now, the military can fix up crappy countries. If the majority of the country is obviously pissed by the "invasion", we go to Plan B: Islamic extremists (as a handy example) can stay in a little play pen somewhere off to the side. Whenever there isn't anyone else to kill, they kill each other. Anybody who wants to join the cool countries can take a damn lie detector test before entering. Unethical? Why? You hiding something? *rattatatttatattattatattaaa*

Yep... I'd be a pretty harsh leader. Those are a few things I'd do, and I didn't even make it to the Science yet, bahaha.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited January 25, 2006).]

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Originally posted by CheeseStorm:

The killing of unborn babies isn't just for the helluvit. It is sad to snatch life away from something that hasn't experienced it yet, but I feel worse for the people who have spent their whole lives in a crippled or paralyzed body, with their mind intact as a silent witness. It is a sucky issue, but the knowledge isn't just so we can hand out awards and pat ourselves on the back. I hear we can get stem cells without using human embryos... and also that it'll be a long while before the other methods become practical. A long time to sit around in a broken body... If I was crippled and thought stem cells could re-grow the severed part of my spine, it'd really suck to hear that unconscious embryos were a higher priority than the people who were already suffering. Or is it part of your God's plan to have them waste away in a wheelchair? I just sympathize more with conscious people.

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so if your mom, dad, sister, cousin jan, whoever was in a state of coma, with let's say a 50/50 shot of recovering, and has been that way for a few months, and you needed a heart transplant, and they just happen to be the right blood type/size/whatever-else-is-needed, you would put yourself above them and take their life so you didn't have to suffer and eventually die? they're just wasting a good heart right? they're not even aware of what's going on, so why not just cut 'em open and take it right? there's no difference between them and the unborn child, or "embryo" if you prefer, except the "embryo" hasn't had the chance to develop and actually live a little.

*edit* i know i used a different body part, but the situation and facts are still the same, they're unconsious and they have what you need.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

[This message has been edited by bennythebear (edited January 25, 2006).]

You and a group of people are in the attic hiding from a group of enemy soldiers searching the floor below. Your baby starts to cry, and the only way to silence it is by smothering it. It's possible that the soldiers would have found you either way, crying baby or not. You also may have just saved everyone else's lives by taking one, horrible as it is.

I am also curious about when you think the 'clay' becomes an 'unborn child'. When it is a single fertilized egg cell, or a clump of unspecializied stem cells, or later on just because it begins to take on the shape of a human?

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

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Wouldn't a religion be only as complex as its creator wanted it to be? Adding too many ingredients would be asking for trouble.

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Yeah adding anything is asking for trouble, and basically the wrong answer. I'd say making up any religion is a bad idea. Instead I think that the Creator of the universe and of life, God, has and continues to reveal Himself to us in an undeniable way.

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I don't think there is anything spiritual or supernatural about our brain.

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The ghost in the machine is (in my clumsy definition) a consciousness that arises from a brain, which is of course made of (very unconscious) bits of inanimate matter.

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Creation/Evolution aside, we are self-aware clumps of clay.

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If our AI ever gets good enough, we could build machines with their own "ghosts" (would this be a side-effect or intentional?). But for the moment, we're the only clumps of clay that generate moral issues for themselves.

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Do you mean that if the AI we design gets good enough? I don't think that it's possible for us to create a conscious being. Mainly because it would only do what we programmed it to do. I see no way around this, although there are others far more cleaver than myself... but still if you program it, it can only do what you told it to do, even if that include learning. I'd say that creating a being that has free will ranks up there with us attempting to create our own universe... only with the AI we'd have something to start with other than nothing. Can we create a being with free will? Can we create a universe? I don't think so... it really seems like it's only something that an all powerful God could do...

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The killing of unborn babies isn't just for the helluvit. It is sad to snatch life away from something that hasn't experienced it yet, but I feel worse for the people who have spent their whole lives in a crippled or paralyzed body, with their mind intact as a silent witness.

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Yeah it's murder and should be called as such... it makes me sick. It's sickening to see how low society has gone. A license to murder... (If someone who has done this is reading, then don't think I'm saying this to hurt you, I know that God forgives, and heals...)

I also feel bad for the people who are crippled. I'm all for a way to help them, as long as it doesn't have to do with killing anyone else.

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If I was crippled and thought stem cells could re-grow the severed part of my spine, it'd really suck to hear that unconscious embryos were a higher priority than the people who were already suffering.

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I think that all humans are high priority, but the murder of unborn children is perhaps the most evil act that mankind has ever done. Of course if it was me who was crippled, I wouldn't like the situation, but I'd feel the same way I do now about abortion. They both are horrible situations. But we are talking about murder here, the murder of children.

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Or is it part of your God's plan to have them waste away in a wheelchair?

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No I don't believe that God would plan for this to happen to someone. The world was created good, but has gone bad, so in effect bad things will happen. I think that it was God who made it possible of course. And if He thinks it was worth the risk, then I would certainly agree with Him. Think of it like this. If there is a God, then how could you even argue against Him? Your own power to think and reason and argue would come from Him!

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I just sympathize more with conscious people.

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You and a group of people are in the attic hiding from a group of enemy soldiers searching the floor below. Your baby starts to cry, and the only way to silence it is by smothering it. It's possible that the soldiers would have found you either way, crying baby or not. You also may have just saved everyone else's lives by taking one, horrible as it is.

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I am also curious about when you think the 'clay' becomes an 'unborn child'. When it is a single fertilized egg cell, or a clump of unspecializied stem cells, or later on just because it begins to take on the shape of a human?

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Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!

I thought the Bible said God made us from clay. Or maybe the authors just didn't know much biology. I was trying to put it in terms you'd understand.

Dunno what I'd do in the "stfu baby" scenario, to be honest. Remember that I don't treat a clump of stem cells as I do humans who have actually experienced life. But it was one of the closest scenarios I could think of.

Lol I said I sympathize MORE with conscious people. I didn't say I don't sympathize at all for unconscious people. I mean, if two people are on fire, but one of them fainted five minutes ago and the other is running around like crazy, I'd probably feel worse for the latter.

So if one fertilized human egg cell is a human...
"Scientist accidentally drops test tube tray - charged with 350 counts of manslaughter." - Daily Noob Times
Or "give stem cells the vote" that would be intense.

The biggest problem I've had with this conversation the whole while is:

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Think of it like this. If there is a God, then how could you even argue against Him? Your own power to think and reason and argue would come from Him!

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Now now, you know how I look at God's omnicient self. Breaking it down we arrive at:
-God created me.
-God gave me the ability to question him.
-God accepts that I'll not believe his existance and decides to go ahead with the design anyway.
-Here I am, God knows my path already, even before I was made. But just to damn another soul he finished the project and ships it to marketing? Like did he owe Lucifer something? "I'll give you this one, just let him have some fun first."

Apperently you people are obviously not pro-choice. Here's my 2 cents on a couple related issues:
1) Abortion. Good in my perspective. This is how I see it. We have a child which will not come into a life filled with love for it. Instead of ending it before I can feel emotion such as love/hate/desire we let it go on, and be brought up in a loveless life. But then you'll say what about adoption? Well what about the homeless children? Like cheese I feel more for those who have felt then those who don't. I'd rather "kill" an unborn child and allow a family to adopt a homeless child then kill the homeless child and adopt a "mistake."

2) Euthanasia. Short one here. I still havn't made a firm decision whether it's "right" or not. My two arguments are: A) They're suffering, death can make it better. B) They can still recover, live a fulfilling life and make the most out of it. I tend to agree with B a lot more, but its a related topic so I thought I'd bring it up.

3) Stem cell research. I definately agree. As I see it, most of you are willing to give up the chance to remove cancer and other plagues from this earth to save the unborn children. What's the statistics of people who've died from cancer? What's the statistics of # of stem cells used for research? What number is higher?

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

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I thought the Bible said God made us from clay. Or maybe the authors just didn't know much biology. I was trying to put it in terms you'd understand.

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The bible says that God formed Adam from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life.

I wouldn't say that the authors knew as much about biology as we do today, but I will say that they wrote about some things that we have just found out through science within the last century. Click here and here.

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Lol I said I sympathize MORE with conscious people. I didn't say I don't sympathize at all for unconscious people.

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Yeah I see what you mean.

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So if one fertilized human egg cell is a human...
"Scientist accidentally drops test tube tray - charged with 350 counts of manslaughter." - Daily Noob Times
Or "give stem cells the vote" that would be intense.

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Hmm... I'm not sure about that... I'm basically saying that abortion is murder.

Capn', I purposefully responded to your posts in a different order than you typed.

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Apperently you people are obviously not pro-choice. Here's my 2 cents on a couple related issues:
1) Abortion. Good in my perspective. This is how I see it. We have a child which will not come into a life filled with love for it. Instead of ending it before I can feel emotion such as love/hate/desire we let it go on, and be brought up in a loveless life.

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Yeah... the child won't have a love filled life so instead we'll kill it! Sounds hideous. I see life as a precious gift, it's not something that we should be able to decide who shall have it or not because of possible situations in the future.

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But then you'll say what about adoption? Well what about the homeless children?

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The abortion clinics could shutdown and become homeless shelters for children. But our society wants quick fixes, and now murder is one of them. It's not only abortion, but you can see this greedy and selfish attitude growing stronger almost everywhere. The way people used to treat other people is not the same as it was 25 years ago.

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Like cheese I feel more for those who have felt then those who don't. I'd rather "kill" an unborn child and allow a family to adopt a homeless child then kill the homeless child and adopt a "mistake."

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One right doesn't make a wrong right. I'd rather do both, allow the unborn child to be born AND adopt the homeless child. Man... that is really bad.. calling the child a mistake. *shivers*

K, now that that's out of the way, back to your statements about free will.

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by CapnStank
The biggest problem I've had with this conversation the whole while is:

-------------------------------------------------
Think of it like this. If there is a God, then
how could you even argue against Him? Your own
power to think and reason and argue would come
from Him!
-------------------------------------------------

Now now, you know how I look at God's omnicient self. Breaking it down we arrive at:
-God created me.
-God gave me the ability to question him.
-God accepts that I'll not believe his existance and decides to go ahead with the design anyway.
-Here I am, God knows my path already, even before I was made. But just to damn another soul he finished the project and ships it to marketing? Like did he owe Lucifer something? "I'll give you this one, just let him have some fun first."

---

Ok, I was trying to have him, now you, picture if God exists. If that's so, then by your response, you think you're higher up on the chain of morality than God is. That's what the point of my statement is. Now I am not saying that your answer is right, I am saying that your answer is not complete.

I think that God is powerful enough to know the future and make creatures that have free will and are able to choose their own destiny. You're speaking as if your fate is sealed, but it's not, you are alive. He's made it entirely possible for you to choose the right path. Even though God knows what you'll choose, it's not because He dumbs you down to a toy that can only choose what He plans, but it's that He's higher than you are. Your ability to choose is real.

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Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited January 26, 2006).]

--D-SIPL

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/dec/05121902.html

BTW, this is the first time I've been to lifesite so I don't know much about them. They just happened to be the first link I found providing the news story.

One thing rarely mentioned is the motivations of the scientists involved in embryonic stem cell research. Human cloning research is illegal in the US. The thing is in order to make embryonic stem cell treatment viable--due to immune rejection by the patient--many of the problems inherent to cloning will first need to be solved. This is still a long-standing problem**.

**Korean scientist Woo Suk Hwang, a professor at the Seoul National University and President of the World Stem Cell Hub, claimed to have cloned human stem cells. Unfortunately, all of it was fakery, fraud and lies.

http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060109/full/439122a.html

News@Nature called this a “huge setback for therapeutic cloning,” saying that “the field is now left with no evidence that it is possible in humans at all.” It's also a disgrace that his work made it all the way into the peer-reviewed Science. The editors didn't bother to doublecheck his work since they considered it "worth publishing" (whatever that means). Heck, the guy used faked photos, rotated and cropped to look real!

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

Their friend I work with however is a cool guy. Used to be a Captain in the Korean Army (South) before he came to Canada.
[/Off Topic]

Just to hopefully make it a little clearer why I vote for abortion. African children who live horrible lives with family, friends, neighbours who've died from HIV/AIDS deserve a better life. If a family was looking for a child I would much sooner recomend they save one of those children's lives rather than bring an extra child in and basically kill the child overseas indirectly.

That's all I was saying.

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

[This message has been edited by CapnStank (edited January 30, 2006).]

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

Jill: "Jack, I have something to tell you..."
Jack: "What's up, Jill?"
Jill: "I'M PREGNANT!"
Jack: "That's like, cool... I guess."
Jill: "I don't want to bring a kid into this world, we're not ready for it."
Doctor: "All your baby are belong to me!"
Jack: "Lol pwnt!"
Jill: "LOL!"

Horrendous! Who likes killing babies? Nobody! For the most part, stupid babies come from stupid people. Stupid people are responsible for dead stupid babies and live stupid babies.

Jill: "Um, should we have a baby sometime? LIKE RIGHT NOW."
Jack: "Lol then we can die happily decades later and pretend we accomplished something beneficial to society!"
Robot: "Another generation of idiots is unnecessary at this time. Oh, and I wouldn't bother reaching for that EMP, Jack - I EMP'd your EMP. Ironic, isn't it?"
Jack: "Stupid machine! There'll always be more idiots! You can't destroy all of us!"
Robot: "If you were to survive this day, you would find that there is a first time for everything..."
*psheow psheow AAARRGH crash boom psheow psheow*

*edit*
If Jack survived, there would still be an idiot, so there wouldn't be a 'first time' (the idiot-free world) for him to see. My BAD. The robot was wrong.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited January 30, 2006).]

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

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If this site restricted opinion then there wouldn't be a site now would there? Because as far as I've seen so far religion is all opinion without any hard proof. So don't talk to me about whether or not I can comment on my beliefs. In no way is my post here influencing anyone else. So if you don't like it suck it up, don't whine to me.

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man, you totally fell into the liberal stereotype.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

Back to the initial topic, hopefully. I have a question for warsong. (If he manages to read this...) What initially brought you to believe that there is no such thing as a Christian Holy War? Basically my understanding is its only a difference of definition of what a Christian War is. Apperently to you it doesn't exist because those who commit the crime have swayed from the faith. But as I see it (and many people of whom I've talked to) see a Christian Holy War as any war resulting from "Christians" fighting for their religion, or at least claiming to. Hypothetically, if there wasn't a Christian faith then the war never would've happened because they wouldn't be fighting for Christianity......or have I interpreted your idea wrong?

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

[This message has been edited by CapnStank (edited February 03, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by CapnStank (edited February 03, 2006).]

Aka the dudes who wrote this needed to justify their violence and also liked it when their fearful listeners brought them choice meats. Mmmmm, steak... it's no wonder broccoli sacrifices never caught on.

http://www.the-earchives.com/scripts/download.asp?id=3965

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Make your good deed for the day, not posting here again.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

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But as I see it (and many people of whom I've talked to) see a Christian Holy War as any war resulting from "Christians" fighting for their religion, or at least claiming to. Hypothetically, if there wasn't a Christian faith then the war never would've happened because they wouldn't be fighting for Christianity......or have I interpreted your idea wrong?

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There will always be those who claim to be something but not really be what they claim. Just as there are muslims who claim to be devout in their religion but they don't follow what the Kuran says (and I pray they don't btw). And in a way... just as there are those who say they don't believe in a real Right and Wrong, but continue to play (live) by the very rule that they claim doesn't exist, and even complain when they think that others don't.

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And God says he's a man of war, he's a jealous god, and getting his people to kill animals for him makes him happy.

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God never said that He's a man of war. He did say that He is a jealous God, and if you think about it He has every right to be. Just as in the way that a married man has the right to be jealous if he finds another man hitting on (sweet talking) his wife. Actually the word is also translated as 'zeal'. Also, He didn't say that killing animals made Him happy. Not directly. You must try to look beyond the fact that the animal is killed and try to look to the reason of why. And no, the answer is not "because it makes God happy."

God would not initiate a war simply to fight and kill. I believe it to be clear from scripture and from experiences in my life and in others lives that He does believe in fighting for what is right and good. He doesn't just give up and throw things away (as someone once suggested He should have done with Adam and Eve), He goes to extreme lengths to redeem them in fact.

Most people like to try and put God on two different extremes. For example, either he's a soft-lovey-hug-hug-kissy-kissy god, or he's a vengeful, merciless, blood-thirsty, evil god. But neither of these are what the God of the Bible is. His love, judgement, mercy, and anger are not mere push buttons that He swaps on and off, but they are all in perfect balance with who He is.

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Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!

“The Lord is a man of war,” Exodus 15:3
Then he kills like a bajillion people, but hey, we humans are too stupid to understand why, cause his plans are so complex, right?

I believe the last time I asked you about the animal sacrifices, you again let off an abstract answer. "A sweet savor unto the Lord," lol can you picture God sitting on a cloud smelling that KFC? More like "A nice sandwich unto the government officials."

In fact you (or someone else?) said I would need the sort of abstract mind needed for comprehending concepts from quantum theory, because that's how strange the justification for killing animals was. Well, I am now ready, if you'd care to enlighten me.

Here's something else. Whenever I ask why God didn't just make a perfect world, Christians always say "cause then we'd have no free will, we'd be like robots bla bla." Well no offence but Heaven sounds like a pretty one-sided existence, and a very good one. Eden is no comparison; it's not like we're gonna get kicked out of Heaven. So why didn't God just make a perfect existence from the start, since apparently we should all be dying (literally) to get to one?

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If you're referring to me with the Right/Wrong thing, it's laughable that you'd compare my beliefs to a bunch of "righteous" assholes going off to slaughter a bunch of Muslims. I just don't believe that there is a universal definition of good and bad because they are just concepts created by human minds.

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I was referring to what some say about good and bad, and you do happen to be one of them. Actually I was comparing you to the muslims that aren't terrorists, not to the true followers of Islam (the terrorists), or to self righteous followers of any religion who killed Muslims. But you see, some rules mankind has created. But there are rules or laws like decent morality which mankind hasn't created (and could have made different if he had liked), but has simply felt the urge that he ought to do so. Decent behavior has of course been taught from generation to generation, but that doesn't mean that we created it. If that was so, then I suppose that we could have also created mathematics as well? There are universal (real) truths. It is very easy to see how there is a real Good and a real Bad. But if you are very bad, or blind to reality then it would be very difficult for you to understand either.

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“The Lord is a man of war,” Exodus 15:3
Then he kills like a bajillion people, but hey, we humans are too stupid to understand why, cause his plans are so complex, right?

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First off, about us being stupid. We are not, unless we want to be. But no matter how smart we get, we are still nothing compared to an all powerful God. When the finite is compared to the infinite it can be said that in comparison that it would be virtually zero no matter how large it has become.

Now about the scripture. It was actually a poem called "The Song of Moses." It was sung by the Israelites as a victory song. They were delivered from the Pharaoh of Egypt and slavery, so of course they'd sing for joy. Also it is better translated as "The Lord is a Warrior" and in this case He is. But when you take phrases out of context and state them separately from what the words around them are saying then you can basically use the phrase in your own context to make it say something that it was not saying.

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I believe the last time I asked you about the animal sacrifices, you again let off an abstract answer.

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The answer that I gave was a sort of challenge. I wanted you to try to understand what I was saying. But if you don't want to try, then I will try to explain it better for you. What I meant was God doesn't necessarily enjoy the fact that an animal was killed. What God liked was the faith demonstrated in the humans in wanting their sin removed. An animals blood cannot cleanse anyone of their sins. So it was really a system of faith that they were working with. They believed that God would forgive them of their sins if they offered him a blood sacrifice. And more importantly it was pointing to the true sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

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In fact you (or someone else?) said I would need the sort of abstract mind needed for comprehending concepts from quantum theory, because that's how strange the justification for killing animals was. Well, I am now ready, if you'd care to enlighten me.

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Nope, that wasn't me. I don't know anything about quantum theory. If you want to understand "the justification for killing animals" then you have to try. It's not really difficult. It'd be similar to the difficulty in making sense of 4+3. But other things are involved here, things that you use but claim don't exist. It makes perfect sense, you just don't understand yet.

In case anyone is wondering, I do know about the pearls and the pigs. I'm just trying to put things out there that perhaps someone with an open heart and mind happens to stumble across one day.

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Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited February 04, 2006).]

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Originally posted by brandon:
In case anyone is wondering, I do know about the pearls and the pigs.

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Heh, I was just about to comment on that when I finished reading all the new posts in this thread. I usually only comment when I can clear up a misconception and discuss an interest of mine at the same time. Like this one:

"I hear we can get stem cells without using human embryos... and also that it'll be a long while before the other methods become practical. A long time to sit around in a broken body... If I was crippled and thought stem cells could re-grow the severed part of my spine, it'd really suck to hear that unconscious embryos were a higher priority than the people who were already suffering. Or is it part of your God's plan to have them waste away in a wheelchair? I just sympathize more with conscious people."

Complete opposite in reality...I think I made it clear earlier that the only viable treatments at this time do not come from embryonic stem cell research.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited February 04, 2006).]