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Can people marry an animal? – warsong




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It said this on TV and I tried to look online and I found more info.
If we come from monkeys can we go with them? If we are animals like monkeys then why stop at that animal and letís be liberal to go with any it seems to some.
True story which one news site says "Brit Jew marries dolphin" well it did happen in Israel.
A woman married a dolphin She is a rich 41 year old women that says she married the dolphin since it keeps her sane. more like insane. She made a lot making rock concerts or cloth design. Well is it ok that she married it without actually doing it with the animal? I find it all strange and her religion is against it.

So if anyone disagrees to this marriage they discriminate, they donít let others be happy, they are sexist, racist, anti Semites, anti dolphin, anti everything. lol Being too liberal tends to warp the mind. I wonder what kind of church or judge married her, and if so they should be arrested and not her since she needs medical attention. Just like the people that try to make animals into Christians need medical attention or am I anti-animal.

http://me.heatmax.illusionfxnet.com/?cat=1
http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/woman-weds-dolphin/2005/12/30/1135732715098.html
http://www.pointsofjew.com/ (another story on this site says they are trying to take away Christmas in a way)
They want to start a trend it seems and the odd thing is that eventually fools will follow just like the gay movement.

more results on http://www.dogpile.com if you search for= "Sharon Tendler" dolphin

So if she was Christian and did this does it means it is ok if she says she believes in Christ? I donít get how some marry the same sex but people are messed up.

buddboy

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From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
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Wow... I figured this would be next after allowing gay marriage, but I didn't know it was already going on... I mean once you allow the gay marriage thing, other types of illegal and more importantly unbiblical types of marriage are going to follow. there's an article on the focus on the family website by Dobson about why gay marriage is wrong, and he said that those types of marriages will follow, due to the fact that this is just the tip of the iceberg for the liberals who want this, because after gay marriage, you can't say that you can't marry animals, because then you are against animals and people who 'love' animals... it's crazy... i mean already in Canada, you can get arrested for being 'anti-gay'... I am afraid we will follow in their footsteps...

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QuestLeader

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wow... that gives a new meaning to sleeping with the fishes..... How would that work? I mean, the dolphin lives in the water. Ok, time to get serious. I think that gay marraige is bad enough, but now inter-speceise marraige? thats just sick. What is the world coming to? From here on it's only downhill. I'm hoping Jesus comes back soon so that we can go ahead and get out of this sin infested planet. I mean, nowdays everything revolvs around a sinfull concept.

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Brandon

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Everytime I hear of something like this I can't help but remember what it says in Romans 1:18-23 (emphasis on verse 22 ... "Professing to be wise, they became fools")

In reading the context from 1:18-31 you grasp an even clearer picture: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%201:18-31;&version=49;

God Bless...

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Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!




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I think she will not have any sexual affair with the fish and that others let her get married since they are very liberal and want to start a trend.

bud
you are kidding that you can be arrested for being against gays? In what way? If I say I am against the act or homosexuality will I be arrested for that? and under what charges? Canada seems to be very liberal.

quest
sleeping with fish, thatís a good one. lol

Brandon
You supported the others in here to bring animals in churches to pray and give them Christian names, which eventually people will treat their animals like humans more ways than one. for each person to compromise then we will do a 180 from the original view. You still didnít answer me what that picture is of. When Christians keep compromising what else do they expect the next generation to do which is the same to compromise what their fathers did and their kids will compromise what they did and so on. People have to stand strong and not change and distort which is a hard thing but the right thing.

As I say many times what was bad 50 years ago is ok now and what is bad not will be ok 50 years from now. Obviously everyone wants to do what is right and some over do it to the point it is dangerous. I am surprised people didnít complain that the women was Jewish and would complain for me to not post it and wait until a Christian or atheist did. Well people have been doing bestiality for many centuries and even in some cultures it is ok which I wonít say since people will complain about the truth and someone else will come in and give more info like Simontempler to say the history.

Also since they say marriage is of a man and women, then the gays go over and donít go though the government process to present it to legislation, congress etc, but they go to a judge which the judge is out of line to give them the rights which they should really arrest the judge for being a renegade since he is supposed to interpreted the law and not make new laws. Go itís from man and women, to humans, to mammal, to polygamy, to Sodom and Gomorra which many Christians will burn with it since even though over 85% of Christians in the US they help support the majority of immoral activities since they do not practice it which makes atheists look more Christian than them.

To be a Christian it takes more than just having faith in Christ, but to act and do what he said. People should not just talk the talk, but walk the walk or else they are talking hot air.

buddboy

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From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
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yah... pretty good post warsong... nope i'm not kidding, you can be arrested for that in Canada right now, look it up!! there's an article on it (like i said) on the focus on the family website, got some interesting material... we're debating same-sex marriage in debate club when we go back to school... i can't wait... oh and yah that was funny Questleader!! lol!

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Realm Master

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THE WORLD IS ALREADY SCREWED UP ENOUGH, IT DOSN'T NEED OUR HELP ANYMORE!!!

gaaa! that is sick and wrong!

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The kingdom of hevan bleongs to them.-Matthew 5:10

PM ME YOUR DESCRIPTION OF ME! ILL PUT IT HERE!

Here's all the comments!

buddboy

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Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
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uh, RM, doesn't jesus say to seek and to save that which was lost? not to be nit-picking but we should always keep on witnessing and trying to help the world...

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

Brandon

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From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:

Brandon
You supported the others in here to bring animals in churches to pray and give them Christian names, which eventually people will treat their animals like humans more ways than one. for each person to compromise then we will do a 180 from the original view.

What are you talking about? I have not said or supported anything about bringing animals in churches. If you think that I have then can you show me where? And how can a name be a Christian name?

quote:
You still didnít answer me what that picture is of.

Who me? What picture?

quote:
To be a Christian it takes more than just having faith in Christ, but to act and do what he said. People should not just talk the talk, but walk the walk or else they are talking hot air.

True, you must do more than BELIEVE in Christ. You must COMMIT yourself to Him. (In the New Testament the greek word translated to 'believe' and 'commit' are the same) Yes, I know this and have done so. If someone is really a Christian, then the person will want to live a life committed to Christ. The Fruits of the Spirit will be evident.


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Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited January 01, 2006).]

ArchAngel

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quote:
Brandon
You supported the others in here to bring animals in churches to pray and give them Christian names, which eventually people will treat their animals like humans more ways than one. for each person to compromise then we will do a 180 from the original view.


warsong, it was me who said it wasn't sinful to bring an animal into a church building. frivilous and ridiculous rules like that, unfounded in scripture, degrade the laws of God. if I wanna call my dog Mike, I will. the bible does not state we cannot name our animals Joe or Tim, and God hasn't spoken to me telling me not to.
granted, tho, I'd rather give my pets names like Roadkill and Porkchops.

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zookey

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From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
one funny way to look at it

LET THEM DO IT

WHY??


because---those who want to go gay or animal-sexual or whatever have 1 inevitable end--extinction---look at it guys---you have to have a guy with a girl to continue the species of humans----and, if you have guy on guy, girl on girl or person on zoo display-------they can't produce so---in theory---they should be 'naturally selected' out in a few years LOL---that is why I think gaynes is so weird--God built sex drive into us so we could reproduce and not go extinct and then people are like 'Well gee goodness the dinosaurs did that extinction thing so it MUST be popular!!'

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QuestLeader

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Zooky, lol. Well I saw an article on discovery channel about how there was a half monkey-half human offspring. It looked creepey, because its almost like breaking a taboo or something when people do that... and just the sight of that thing sent shivers down my spine. I truly hope that that's not the future of mankind. And if it is, I hope Jesus comes back before the world gets that bad.

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Brandon

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From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
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I can't just say let them do it... because if they don't find out the truth about Jesus and commit to Him, then their eternal soul is doomed... FOREVER... and I don't like that. Not when I can make a difference. We as believers in Christ have the chance now when we are alive to tell the lost souls about Jesus Christ. For goodness sake don't just LET people die and go to hell... infact... do something about it. Do whatever you can do to show these people the truth.

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Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!

zookey

Member

Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by questleader:
Zooky, lol. Well I saw an article on discovery channel about how there was a half monkey-half human offspring. It looked creepey, because its almost like breaking a taboo or something when people do that... and just the sight of that thing sent shivers down my spine. I truly hope that that's not the future of mankind. And if it is, I hope Jesus comes back before the world gets that bad.



for real???? I thought we were similar but couldn't breed-----well, that is man playing God for ya which will be mankind's ultimate downfall anyways (I read somewhere that 666 actually trasnlates to 'man is god'--so kinda ties together)

Brandon: Please take into account the tone of my post--I was trying to lighten the topic by joking there is many loopholes in the statements I made I only said them to crack people up. On that note though---some people you just have to let them be stupid---you can make a difference in anybody's life by living Jesus's principals and walking the walk---but some people are going to be stupid no matter what and sometimes you are wasting energy trying to correct them-----if someone is emotionally out there enough to marry a dolphin (or get laid with a monkey for that matter--or maybe sleeping with a monkey should just be labled as desperate)---likely they won't listen to common sense LOL


edit: fixed grammar a little but
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[This message has been edited by zookey (edited January 04, 2006).]

ArchAngel

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From: SV, CA, USA
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yeah, the humanzee is not fully verified, but there has been tales. and stuff that seem like a hybrid.

what cracks me up is that Stalin wanted them to create supersoldiers.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
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crazyishone

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that is really odd.

most things have a natural "spermicide" that kills anything that isnt from the same species(is this the right level of familiarity?). Thus you cant mix a dog and a cat, but you can mix 2 dogs, etc..

Unless we are genetically similar enough to the chimp that the sperm is accepted.
could be a hoax. btw (i know, this is sick curiosity), was the thing born of a human female or of a chimp? im guessing the chimp was the female...

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zookey

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From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
yeah, the humanzee is not fully verified, but there has been tales. and stuff that seem like a hybrid.

what cracks me up is that Stalin wanted them to create supersoldiers.


I would almost thing it is a 733t photoshop mod LOL
I think it is like crazyishone said---too different the sperm wouldn't work----but goodness knows someone out there probably tried-----Disney should rot in heck for making the movie Tarzan and putting such notions in weirdo's heads!!
LOLJK

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ArchAngel

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From: SV, CA, USA
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lol. well, hybrids such as the Liger and the Mule do exist. and chimp dna is supposedly close to ours. and there is that freaky story of Oliver. but, insemination isn't the only way to make a halfer. and I don't know about this spermicide. don't think women have something that checks if the right dna is coming through, like airport security.

frankly, I'm just gonna think about cool stuff like Minotaurs and Centaurs. this monkey stuff is kinda gross.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
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zookey

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Posts: 1902
From: Great Falls, Montana, USA
Registered: 04-28-2002
quote:
Originally posted by ArchAngel:
lol. well, hybrids such as the Liger and the Mule do exist. and chimp dna is supposedly close to ours. and there is that freaky story of Oliver. but, insemination isn't the only way to make a halfer. and I don't know about this spermicide. don't think women have something that checks if the right dna is coming through, like airport security.

frankly, I'm just gonna think about cool stuff like Minotaurs and Centaurs. this monkey stuff is kinda gross.



WELL OF COURSE LIGERS EXIST!! They are bred for their strong abilities in Magic(*wonders how many out there will catch the reference)!! LOL jk actually tho I saw a picture of one once---since Lions and Tigers are cats they can both be mated-----I remember in Biology they said at the beginning of the year that we definately evolved from apes because our dna is 90% similar---yet at the end of the year they said that we are 90% similar to ANY animal with DNA----so my friends and I joked about starting a cult whose core belief was we evolved from zebras.

On that note tho--kind of funny---evolution is only supposed to happen when a species proves to be inferior for its' environment and has to change to adapt----if that is the case and we evolved from apes--how come apes are still here? Shouldn't they have died out or something? LOL there is so many loopholes in that kind of stuff that they DON'T cover in textbooks---any point of view out there asks you to take a leap of faith I guess!

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QuestLeader

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Posts: 629
From: My house, Va, USA
Registered: 04-20-2005
I know, seriously! It takes just as much if not more faith to beleive in evolution than creationism. All those people are simply putting their faith in the wrong things. I mean if you do any research into evolution whatsoever than you will find it is like swiss cheeze, full of holes an unproven theories. Whenever evolutionists make a big discovery, it just gets dissproved within a year by the same person hat made it, lol.

@Crazy - Actually, it is said to be that the mother of Oliver the humanzee is a human.

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Brandon
I didnít say you support it, I just said you sided with then. Also saints name is a Christian name which many Christians like protestants donít believe in saints unlike the original church so it doesnít matter what they do which is why they do it. I should post about the historical foundation of the protestant religion as well but I didnít have enough time.

What is the picture you have under your name (in other words the pagan word avatar)?
Thatís is an interesting in what you said that ď(In the New Testament the greek word translated to 'believe' and 'commit' are the same)Ē Also that is one example of what I was saying in the Orthodox post about translation. But anyway where did you find that correlation? Which is what I mean in other posts that just because someone says (believe) they are Christian doesnít mean they are (committed), but people have to be which that as you pointed out have to go togeather. Too bad the other member metalmike i think his name is didn't understand this.

Archangel
Obviously you would say such things about animals in church but I figure no reason to point out your name. And I explained it which you donít seem to want to think about it. If I say 1+1=2 you will say that it could be 11 and if you are going to think that way then there is no need for me to explain any further since you donít want to understand so good luck with your negative assumptions. But you do what you do, but you should at least talk to a professional. Even Brandon doesnít agree with you about animals in churches, but non orthodox churches are more like Christian communities than churches so I guess maybe you are right that you can do whatever you want in them which is why you say to bring animals in your Christian community.

crazyishone

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hey arch, about the "spermicide" thing, I wasn't saying it actually is that, just saying its the same principle.

this is what the biology teaching guy tells us, anyway. like zookey said, ligers exist because both lions and tigers are felines. both donkeys and horses are part of the same thing. (i believe the term for these groups is "genus"...)

perhaps chimpanzees and humans are as well. you could never have a dog/human or a cat/human thing through insemination. The egg rejects the sperm. (or the sperm is killed. not sure exactly what happens).

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ArchAngel

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Warsong, your assumptions do you no good.
to begin with, Bradon's avatar is of an angel... a christian avatar, not a pagan one.
Way to use discretionary thinking on that one.

Second of all, you have this view that whatever you say is correct by default, while everybody else is on a limb. there is no real scriptural reference saying that an animal cannot enter a church nor can it be given a name like "paul."
you say I'm a liberal, you say I don't think about the issue, you say I am closeminded to the truth. frankly, I see those in you. you refuse to accept any other viewpoint as a possibility of truth. you chug ahead as the stereotypical fundementalist without any thought on the validity of what you say. you give no backing to what you say, but expect everybody to fall before your "impressive" arguements. if you want to make your point, prove it, instead of continually stating how the opposing party is closeminded.
frankly, your arguements have to be some of the worse I've come across, and I've debated with both conservatives and liberals; more liberals than conservatives. basically, don't expect me to concede unless you could come up with an atleast decent contention.

although, I will say, you are no liberal; you don't pretend to be tolerant.

quote:
non orthodox churches are more like Christian communities than churches so I guess maybe you are right that you can do whatever you want in them which is why you say to bring animals in your Christian community.

you are correct in this one(except the last part). After all, the church, as stated in the bible, especially the book of Acts, is a body of believers, not a building. the church building itself is of little spiritual relevance; it is not the temple as in Judaism.
I never stated in bringing animals in to the church community.

you do understand that many of here are not orthodox, and do not place much emphasis on rituals and icons. The church building is not sacred; our body's, the temple of God, is. you need to clearly explain your stance, instead of saying what you believe, and call people who do not agree with you closeminded liberals. (heh... oxymoron.. liberals are usually so openminded their brains have fallen out...)
and a link to a less-than-credentialed website is not considered a solid proof. that jtf place was horrendous. yes, dare I say, even worse than air america.

so, you state that Brandon agrees with you, and not me. okay, let's prove it. either of us could be right or wrong in this, and the next question will make it clear.

Brandon, do you think it is morally wrong to bring an animal into a church building?
if you don't want to answer it, you don't have to; but an answer would be appreciated.


ah, Crazyishone, I see what your saying.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
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Brandon

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Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
Quote from ArchAngel:
Brandon, do you think it is morally wrong to bring an animal into a church building?

Short answer: No.

Longer explained answer: I'd say it depends on the motive of the person that does it. Okay, let's assume that no one has ever said anything about bringing a dog into a church building. On Sunday a wild and cheerful 16 year old kid brings his dog to show off to his friends. In that case, no I don't think that it's morally wrong. In another one lets say that after this happened some of the older ladies got upset and said that it was a careless and disrespectful thing to do, and they get together with some people who are in control of things, and they say that you cannot bring animals into the building anymore. If he brings it again next week knowing that he's being disobedient, then it would be morally wrong. But as for a dog sitting in a church building, I don't think that it's wrong, or that God would strike it dead or anything. Just as don't think that it'd be wrong for a blind person to bring his seeing dog in to a church building. I think that the question in itself is hard to answer because of the word 'morally' It really depends on why the person is doing it. With all that said, I do think that it'd be inappropriate in our culture, mainly because of the way that many church services are carried out these days.

quote:
Quote from warsong:
Brandon
I didnít say you support it, I just said you sided with then. Also saints name is a Christian name which many Christians like protestants donít believe in saints unlike the original church so it doesnít matter what they do which is why they do it. I should post about the historical foundation of the protestant religion as well but I didnít have enough time.

What I basically said in that post, was that the rule you gave was not Biblical. Hey, why do you call it "the protestant religion"? That really doesn't sit well with me. I would think that it'd be correct to call it Christianity if the central focus is on Jesus Christ, His life, death, and resurrection.

quote:
Quote from warsong:
What is the picture you have under your name (in other words the pagan word avatar)?

Yeah, as ArchAngel said, it is a drawing of an angel. I think that it is supposed to be Michael... cool huh?

quote:
Quote from warsong:
Thatís is an interesting in what you said that ď(In the New Testament the Greek word translated to 'believe' and 'commit' are the same)Ē Also that is one example of what I was saying in the Orthodox post about translation. But anyway where did you find that correlation? Which is what I mean in other posts that just because someone says (believe) they are Christian doesnít mean they are (committed), but people have to be which that as you pointed out have to go together. Too bad the other member metalmike i think his name is didn't understand this.

Yeah, what I was trying to get at when I said that is that the word means literally 'commit', as in actively living it out, not simple head knowledge. (I was told that by my pastor, who is a New Testament Greek professor who's been teaching New Testament Greek for more than 25 years. Guess I should have said so eh? Actually I'm trying to learn Greek myself right now.) If someone says that they believe something, and they are telling the truth then their actions will be proof of their true beliefs.

And finally, I've learned to read the Bible and come to God from a stand point where I am willing to learn the pure truth. I am not interested in studying the bible in an attempt to find something that sides with my point of view. I study the Bible to see what God has to say.


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Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited January 06, 2006).]




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Crazy
A mule can not have offspring. When mixing occurs the negative genes usually dominate. This can also be seen in incest, mixing species, etc. Which is why the saying everything to moderation. Even some speculate aids coming from bestiality. And even one woman once tried to show that itís ok to do bestiality but she died because of it which proved her wrong. I guess arch will disagree and think its ok until I show evidence that its not. LOL Iím kidding.

Arch
Every time you post you always distort what I say. Maybe you should take your own advice. I didnít say his picture is pagan. The word "avatar is a reincarnation of a deity in human form". I just find that word imporper.

You sure act like a liberal since they distort and attack which makes since why you take what the bible says the wrong way as well. And you sure misunderstand and think you know better. Go talk to an orthodox priest or catholic priest about bringing animals in churches, but they wont even allow you to pass 1/2 way though an orthodox church let alone bringing an animal in it. You donít see this before 500 years ago. You ignore the facts and then you ask for facts. Itís like me presenting water to you but you complain that I donít tip your head back and pour the water in your mouth. I have already shown you enough examples and if you care to know more then go find out and stop letting others do the work for you. I didnít expect someone to say that itís ok to bring animals to church to pray with you which most Christians will disagree. Maybe it is ok at the religious gathering you go to since its not a church but they will lock you up if you do that in most churches, but I guess you think you know better.
Others are not close minded in her and opinions are presented without attacks but you seem to like to take what I say the wrong way.

Well thatís you opinion about churches, but that doesnít mean that your opinion outweighs what priest have said for 2000 years.
As for jtf you wanted a Jewish opinion lol. I even quoted from statistics which you completely ignored that, and it shows that you donít care to listen to facts. Keep ignoring and see how far it gets you. And again if you want to understand then you have to look for an opposing view of yours since when you give effort to look for answers you appreciate better, and for me to give you the answers would be worthless since its easy come easy go, in one ear out the other. Another thing to get a view is to write a list of why your view is right, then write an equally long list and strong argument to say why it so wrong. In that method you learn new things and make a better judgment. If you keep talking to me I might change your religion or at least your sect. lol Which did make some open minded Protestants question their religion to make them look for another one. Maybe you might think thatís bad but they say thanks you. I donít put people to anything, and even an ex Jew wanted to be Orthodox but told him no way and so he became Buddhist. Maybe you might disagree but diluting Christianity only helps distort the message and dilute the meaning which is why you get pastors that push for homosexuality, and so many encourage divorce, and the slew of other diluted Christian beliefs.

Whatever, I say too much and it just goes in one ear and out the other.

Brandon
A church is not a place to show off a dog it is to pray. What next say itís ok to sell thing in church? Or should Christ come in and kick everyone out and say everyone is making it to a barn yard or a den of thieves than a church. Do your business or donít go their at all. Do you honestly need someone to tell you not to bring it so that you bring it? What next itís ok to have a merchant shop in the church and wait for Christ to come and say no. God didnít strike the merchant before Christ said it but you know Christ didnít like it and got mad. God lets you do what you do and will not interfere with how far you mess things up since you have to figure things out.

I donít call Protestantism Christianity, and it is appropriate since it has a slew of things that make it distinct form the origins of Christianity. You might as well say that a historian is Christian since they reference on it, or a Muslim is Christian. I stand by it and I will post later in a new thread about it when I have time. Some can be kings and make their own christian religion and change it to divorce and kill their wives, and a regular joe can make his or her own to change a few more thing to say to marry many women. Everything is ok if you have money and the root to all evil is what helped make most sects thrive. Their can be only one, so 99% have some major falw just like a small crack in a glass that grows and changes direction. Even something as small as 2 lines that are only .01 degrees off where you can see how far away they are after the time it travels which one stays true one course while the other reaches the other side of the gloab, and all just becasue of .01 degree.

As for the picture when is it from? A comic book? A game?

So your pastor read the Greek NT? Didnít you complain in the other post that the translation is just as good as the original when I said no? Well thatís good that he does. I guess some will learn eventually so why do I bother saying things.
As for studying the bible that is a good way to look at it and you have to be humble to do that effectively.

crazyishone

Member

Posts: 1685
From:
Registered: 08-25-2004
"Crazy
A mule can not have offspring. "

eh. makes sense.

anyway, point was you can have successful breeding within the same main group of things.

but that is an interesting fact.

------------------
Instant Messengers are the scourge of productivity.

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
Brandon
A church is not a place to show off a dog it is to pray. What next say itís ok to sell thing in church? Or should Christ come in and kick everyone out and say everyone is making it to a barn yard or a den of thieves than a church. Do your business or donít go their at all. Do you honestly need someone to tell you not to bring it so that you bring it? What next itís ok to have a merchant shop in the church and wait for Christ to come and say no. God didnít strike the merchant before Christ said it but you know Christ didnít like it and got mad. God lets you do what you do and will not interfere with how far you mess things up since you have to figure things out.

Did I not say that it'd be inappropriate? It is very clear to me now by your response that to judge a man's morality is only something that God can do. Because no matter hard I try you seem to 'read' me all wrong. OK, Since I said that it is inappropriate, then to me it would not be the best thing to do. But I will not say that it is morally wrong because the act in itself cannot be so. It would be an indecent thing to do. But only God can judge and say if something like that is morally wrong or not, because only He can know our hearts and the motives behind the things we do. Please understand though, I am not speaking of things that are so naturally known of as wrong and evil... like rape or murder. But I am speaking of other things which are neither right nor wrong.

quote:
I donít call Protestantism Christianity, and it is appropriate since it has a slew of things that make it distinct form the origins of Christianity. You might as well say that a historian is Christian since they reference on it, or a Muslim is Christian. I stand by it and I will post later in a new thread about it when I have time. Some can be kings and make their own christian religion and change it to divorce and kill their wives, and a regular joe can make his or her own to change a few more thing to say to marry many women. Everything is ok if you have money and the root to all evil is what helped make most sects thrive. Their can be only one, so 99% have some major falw just like a small crack in a glass that grows and changes direction. Even something as small as 2 lines that are only .01 degrees off where you can see how far away they are after the time it travels which one stays true one course while the other reaches the other side of the gloab, and all just becasue of .01 degree.

Well I think you're wrong. How can you compare a muslim or a historian (one who is not a follower of Christ) to a person that believes Jesus is who He said He is, lives their life committed to Him, and effectively wins souls to Christ? To me this is not a proper comparison. You are not speaking as if a follower of Christ should. For the Word of God says:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

This cannot be explained away. You are saying that someone must follow tradition and rites in order to be saved, while I see no evidence of the Bible saying so. These things that we touch and do in this world will one day perish... but my relationship with God is eternal.

I see what you mean about the .01 degrees off and how that magnifies over time. But take a look at the Bible and you will see that it has not changed. It is the same. People may try to make it say different things (by taking it out of context) but the same message that was written those many centuries ago is still there, undisturbed and is still just as powerful... because it is the eternal Word of God. When people follow a certain protestant, roman catholic, or even eastern orthodox sect as if it were God's Holy Word, then that's where problems arise. We people can get off track in things, even in tradition, but God's Word will never pass away, and it is the only unchanging truth that we can rely on.

quote:

As for the picture when is it from? A comic book? A game?


It's some art that a talented Christian guy makes. I found it on the website here (prepare to be amazed): http://elfwood.lysator.liu.se/art/m/i/mikewaters/mikewaters.html

quote:
So your pastor read the Greek NT? Didnít you complain in the other post that the translation is just as good as the original when I said no? Well thatís good that he does. I guess some will learn eventually so why do I bother saying things.

Yeah, of course he does. As in translation are you speaking of the KJV, NASV, NIV, etc..? If that's what you mean, then no, I don't remember saying that they are as accurate as the original text of the New Testament. However the Message is definitely there. So if you mean are they as good as in, can God use the Bible Translations to convict and save the lost (which is the bottom line), then yes, the translations are just as good. But as for being as accurate, no. The Greek language as used in the New Testament times was the most precise and exact language to ever exist within the human race.

Warsong, I don't know but do you think it's possible that perhaps you can learn a thing or two? And that you don't know everything that there is to know? Just wondering because I have seen no reason to believe that you think so at the moment.

quote:

As for studying the bible that is a good way to look at it and you have to be humble to do that effectively.

Why thank you.

------------------
Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited January 07, 2006).]

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
okay, I misread your statement of the avatar. I retract my criticism there.
but as usual, warsong, you completely miss what I am saying and go off on some wild tangent. well, have fun over there.

moving on...

quote:
Go talk to an orthodox priest or catholic priest about bringing animals in churches, but they wont even allow you to pass 1/2 way though an orthodox church let alone bringing an animal in it.

um. I'm not catholic or orthodox. I don't believe the full doctrines of either, why should I take a priest of either as a vessel of pure truth? I read the Bible, pray and research facts to find truth, not listen to some guy who I don't even agree with. A priest is an unnecessary middleman, Jesus became the high priest in place of the rest. I don't need a catholic or orthodox priest, I got the uberPriest of all, Jesus.

quote:
If you keep talking to me I might change your religion or at least your sect.

laughable, but go ahead. however, you'll need to do more than talk about how I don't listen to convince me.
just because somebody says something, I don't suddenly go flocking to them. I need proof and backing. now, I believe the Bible is God's word, infallible. good backing for you to use as proof; I'm not going to say the bible is wrong.and I'm not even going to bother with this arrogant "protestant religion" crap. I'm leaving that to my homie, Brandon.
so I challenge you to convince me otherwise and turn me orthodox. although, I warn you... I need real solid proof.

quote:
You sure act like a liberal since they distort and attack which makes since why you take what the bible says the wrong way as well.

by that definition, your practically Al Sharpton.

frankly, you have given me no scripture that I have disregarded. you mentioned the verse about feeding pearls to swine, but again, I don't see how the two are connected. if you read the verse in any form of context, it's talking about constructive criticism and to those who can't take it.
interestingly enough... that verse probably applies to both of us here..
and those statistics, they don't say that the black culture is bad, all they say is that many black individuals suffer depravity, or what not.
part of critical thinking is taking correlations for what they are, and not extrapolating unfounded causes and effects. I hold still hold that the gang culture is infiltrating black communities and that is the problem. nothing you have stated proved that wrong.
anyhow, moving on...

no matter how many times you say something, it doesn't add validity. all I heard is that I am wrong, ignorant and liberal, but nothing to back it up. you may not know this, but I do not think I am wrong; i think my view is correct. from the standpoint of your arguement, it almost seems that you think that I think I am wrong and you are right. so, I'm supposed to drop all my beliefs and adopt yours just because you said the right way is your way?
I don't know if I can possibly take you seriously. anybody can say it, can you back it up? maybe, if you can earn my respect, I'll take you by your word, but frankly, every post you make makes me more and more sorry for your ignorance.
stop whining and give me some real scripture. or else, stop making yourself look bad.

quote:
Well thatís you opinion about churches, but that doesnít mean that your opinion outweighs what priest have said for 2000 years

no, it doesn't. but just because some dudes been saying something for -2000 years doesn't make it right. so let's compare it to scripture.
read the book of Acts. the church they talk about is a group of believers, a community. the early church met in catacombs; they prayed beside dead bodies. if anything is unclean, that is. however, it didn't matter, because it was the prayer that counted, not where you did it. in a matter of fact, in Matthew 6:6, Jesus tells us to pray in our room, or our closet.
the place is insignificant, it's the heart that matters. the Pharisees prayed outloud in the temple, but God didn't care about their prayers, because they were proud. it is the sinner in his room calling out that catches God's ear. bring a dog into church won't incite the wrath of God, unless it is our of disobedience, as explained by Brandon. God would be much angrier if a homeless man was turned out of the church because he brought his pet cat in, one cold, rainy day to hear the Word.(haha, appealing to the emotions... common liberal tactic.lol)


and lastly, on the point of the mules and stuff, some of them can have offspring, for example, the female Liger can.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liger
they are so cool...

------------------
"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios




Posts:
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Registered:
brandon
I would assume you agree but if you donít or if others donít get it then let me explain. You can point out where someone is wrong. To judge someone is to tell them they are going to hell. Just like if you saw a person that is going to rob a store you tell them not to or else they will go to jail, but we know you are not a judge so are you wrong? Obviously not but you do not have the final word and power to place them in jail and are giving a warning by what you know. Your example shows that you get it. But for more details people should ask a professional as I have stated before. Donít expect the bible to point every silly thing out like to tell you to breath. Just like the constitution it expects people to make logical decisions and not twist the original meaning which many like to distort.

Muslims believe in Christ as well they say, and even in the book they have more stories of Christ which they are wrong. Even you said it takes more than believe but acting it out which the majority does not. I agree with the Protestant Bill Graham when he said people are going to hell in a hand basket. Obviously the Muslim religion is too far off and that is an extreme example but I am just showing an extreme example. I will comment about what you said later since this is not the proper post for it. As for your other points about traditions, the bible doesnít say a lot, it doesnít say for you to make a cross, doesnít tell you to have a cross, saints, doesnít tell you to go to church every Sunday, doesnít say a lot of things that you and many Christians do. I hope you read the links I gave you before in the other posts to get a better idea but I get the feeling you didnít not look at it enough, but you do what you feel comfortable doing. Even divorce has gone more rampant in protestant sect which is a shame. They push for psychologist to take care of marital problems instead of priests which as the statistics show it does help to the increase in divorce rates.

As for the .01% the origins are the same as you say but the interpretations are different and you know that. Gods changing words donít change, but people change what God means which brings on that .01%. Every little thing adds on to one big thing. One example is that for many yearsí people thought that ďdo to others what you want others to do to youĒ was to do an eye for an eye. Or the Catholic Church about how they repent which gives people false repentance and they do it again. Many religions encourage sin unintentionally since they do not follow it right. Everyone means well but not everyone gets it.

As for animals they are not there for the sacrament, participate in the religious service while someone that is busy praying cleans up after it while everyone sells the animals business.

Also about time you give a link to pic LOL. nice site its fantasy art in a way. Your small blurry picture made it look more cartoonish than how the site presents it.
There is a saying by Socrates I think that went like ďall I know is that I know nothingĒ Or another one that says ďhe who thinks they know it all knows nothingĒ lol donít worry about me, I am more cautious than you think. But you have to admit you have a lot to learn about Christianity and you are not even close to understanding it well which you have to be humble as well to admit. Good luck


Arch
You donít have to be the same sect as the other priests to ask questions, but you do have to be open minded and humble to do so. You say what you say since you do not know enough which is a shame. Jesus is the main priest as you say and he has his disciples and so on. If you only take Christ word then you might as well throw away the bible since his disciples and their disciples help present it to you. As the saying goes ďhe who thinks they know it all knows nothingĒ So say you know nothing and do it. You have to admit that priests that have been in school for many years to learn the religion and have many years of experience but you think you know more, so then your also probably how to be a lawyer, doctor, or architect since that takes just as many years to learn. Keep on thinking you are correct and think how far it gets you, and to call other ignorant is not helping your argument as well. If you want to distort scripture to the way you want to see it then maybe you are beyond saving even though you might think you are in good standing. You are afraid to hear another side which could explain why you twist things about, and to go to another priest then you will defiantly be afraid for many reasons. Donít let fear drive you.

It is sad how you ignore the basic things and its like trying to explain to you why milk is white and you want to think itís green even if shown reasonable info. I donít know if it is that you donít or canít understand or maybe both but in the end you will not get it. I know that explain thing to you is a waste of time mostly but at least others will read it. I can not explain when the other doesnít want to listen and thinks they are right, you have to be a little more humble like Brandon or Simontempler for example.

You know that the bible has many metaphors and have many meaning? Donít take everything literally or you might poke your eye out since it causes you to sin.

As for black culture, donít get the people confused with the beliefs.
Most beliefs are wrong and some are more wrong than others. Even you were whining to not compare Hitlerís book to the Muslim religion but if you want to close your eyes and not see it then thatís not my problem. Itís a good thing simple knows his history better than most so I didnít need to explain anything to him. I didnít like that he explained it since people should lean it their own to appreciate it more, but I guess everyone doesnít want to try and truly learn, but mostly look for things to justify their views which is not Christian.

As for a liger they are worthless, they need to eat a lot and do less. Donít expect that site to tell you everything but expect a general info.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
quote:
You are afraid to hear another side which could explain why you twist things about, and to go to another priest then you will defiantly be afraid for many reasons. Donít let fear drive you.

so... I challenged you to change my religion and convince me otherwise, and this is all you have to say in response? weak. don't ask the opposing party to do your work for you; it's sad.


quote:
You have to admit that priests that have been in school for many years to learn the religion and have many years of experience but you think you know more, so then your also probably how to be a lawyer, doctor, or architect since that takes just as many years to learn.

just like many scientists say that evolution is correct, so let's just believe them because they studied it longer than us. suuurree.. frankly i've listened to a priest and I was less than impressed. I also have catholic family, so I was exposed to some of the catholic views. still, here I am, protestant. so if it's experience in spirituality that matters, why don't I talk to a buddhist monk? heck, they spent most of their life studying and meditating on that stuff. I don't, because I don't hold them as a credible source of information. while I do hold catholics and orthodox's as christians, I don't hold them as credible as say people like J. Vernon McGee.

don't get me wrong, I'm not devalueing professional opinions, etc. I listen and read what people smarter than I say, and I take it into consideration. These people have studied the bible for years also, and guess what? they disagree with both the catholic church and the orthodox church? who knew?
but I never just take their word for it. God gave his Word to all of us; I don't need to go to a seminary for 5 years to realize that simple truths stated in it. if orthodox is the way, I should go that way; if not, then no.


quote:
You know that the bible has many metaphors and have many meaning? Donít take everything literally or you might poke your eye out since it causes you to sin.

I don't. if you read my interpretation of the pearls and swine, it makes it clear. perhaps your mixing me up with someone else?

all I hear from you is that I am wrong, and nothing to prove it. you talk about me being humble, yet you are the most arrogant person on this board. forgive me if your words mean very little to me.
all you say is how I deny the truth, yet you fail to prove in any way. I'm not going to take some guy on the internet for his word and change my entire view. it's stupid and foolish. stop telling me how I am rejecting the truth and show me it. until you actually start making arguements and stop with this ad hominem, I'll have to go with the Metadebate approach and say you have not met the burden of proof.


and lastly... ligers rock. they are like twice the size of the siberian tiger. that in itself is just cool. so what if they eat alot and do very little... is that really any different from the average american? I'd say average human, but they don't eat as much as we do.

one wikipedia article has given me more info than all of your posts combined. you aren't the one to criticize them for not giving direct information.

------------------
"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
WARSONG!!
What a load of... never mind, not getting into it... I didn't even read the whole thing of your last post, after you told Brandon that "you are not even close to understanding it yet"... can you get more condescending? and HE needs to be humble? whatever... this is amazing. i can't believe it. wow. this is crazy. i don't wanna even continue to read this post, for fear of losing my mind or getting really mad. i mean, all you do is go on and on and on about how you are right and we are all stupid liberals who don't know enough about the bible and world events and just basically everything to even begin to try to enter in an argument with you.... and you give absolutely NO facts, or miniscule amounts of them, or just totally obscure stuff, or verses taken out of context, or what Socrates said... who in the heck really cares? and don't you think that those sayings apply to YOU anyway? 'he who thinks he knows everything knows nothing'? sure sounds to me a heckalot like you, more than brandon, that's for sure... i still can't believe everything you have posted... oh my gosh... you are by far the most uninformed rambling liberal whiner that i have met, the only thing that divides you from the rest is that you are the exact opposite of liberally open-minded, (actually more like open brain cavity!) in that you are so close-minded i couldn't rip your head open with a hydraulic lift... ah well, tired out now...

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
actually, he said Brandon is humble. which is one of the things we actually agree upon.

but woohoo! I'm not alone.

------------------
"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
Quote by warsong
brandon
You can point out where someone is wrong. To judge someone is to tell them they are going to hell. Just like if you saw a person that is going to rob a store you tell them not to or else they will go to jail, but we know you are not a judge so are you wrong? Obviously not but you do not have the final word and power to place them in jail and are giving a warning by what you know. Your example shows that you get it. But for more details people should ask a professional as I have stated before.

I agree with warning someone. Like telling them that they are violating the law, and telling them the consequence for breaking it. Thank God that there is a Redeemer! He is our Kinsman Redeemer

quote:
Quote by warsong
Donít expect the bible to point every silly thing out like to tell you to breath.

No, I don't expect it to. We (Christians) have the Spirit that bears witness with us, and He convicts us of what's wrong and what we should not be doing. We need to keep in tune and listen to Him.

quote:
Quote by warsong
As for your other points about traditions, the bible doesnít say a lot, it doesnít say for you to make a cross, doesnít tell you to have a cross, saints, doesnít tell you to go to church every Sunday, doesnít say a lot of things that you and many Christians do. I hope you read the links I gave you before in the other posts to get a better idea but I get the feeling you didnít not look at it enough, but you do what you feel comfortable doing.

Making a cross, and going to church on Sunday? Those things have nothing to do with being a Christian. As for doing what I feel comfortable. I won't. No, I will not do something just because it feels comfortable for me to do. I want to do what is right whether it is comfortable or not.

quote:
Quote by warsong
Even divorce has gone more rampant in protestant sect which is a shame. They push for psychologist to take care of marital problems instead of priests which as the statistics show it does help to the increase in divorce rates.

I know and can relate to divorce... as I was raised from the age of 14 in a home with no father. I don't push for psychologists to take care of marital problems, nor do I know anyone who wants that. I think that the Bible teaches what marriage should be based on, and what it's all about.

quote:
QUOTE by Warsong
As for the .01% the origins are the same as you say but the interpretations are different and you know that. Gods changing words donít change, but people change what God means which brings on that .01%. Every little thing adds on to one big thing. One example is that for many yearsí people thought that ďdo to others what you want others to do to youĒ was to do an eye for an eye.

Perhaps if they had only studied the Bible for themselves while being fed the false doctrine then they would have seen that "do to others as you'd have them do unto you" was not "eye for an eye!"

quote:
Quote by warsong
But you have to admit you have a lot to learn about Christianity and you are not even close to understanding it well which you have to be humble as well to admit. Good luck

I like this following quote by Charles Spurgeon: "I would sooner bring one sinner to Jesus than unravel all the mysteries of the Word, for salvation is the thing we are to live for." Amen to that.

We don't have to understand everything about Christianity in order to believe that it's true. We need to be seeking after Jesus Christ Himself, and trying to be more like Him. I am not close to understanding Him fully... but I do know Him quite well. How about you?


------------------
Your love, O Lord, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies.
Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains, your justice like the great deep.
O Lord , you preserve both man and beast.
How priceless is your unfailing love!

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited January 08, 2006).]

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
yah brandon!! liked the quote by Spurgeon!! it is just like one of the verses in the bible about love... where if we understand everything and have all knowledge, but have not love, we have nothing.... just seems to me warsong, that you value the 'knowledge of the bible' which you CLAIM to have, and yet, you don't have the amount you claim to have, AND we are not supposed to value it so much... oh, and about how you said that we are not told to go to church every sunday, we are told "not to forsake the fellowship of the brethren." we aren't given a specific day, but we are supposed to go to church regularly. oh, and Arch, you haven't been alone in this for quite some time now... lol!

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
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Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
just an excuse to say "woohoo".
lol.

props on both of your contentions.

------------------
"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
props on both my contentions? huh? confused...

------------------
In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

crazyishone

Member

Posts: 1685
From:
Registered: 08-25-2004
haha, he is complementing you. saying he agrees with both of your arguments, or "good job", etc. heh.

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Instant Messengers are the scourge of productivity.

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
figured... lol sometimes i can be dumb and ask what something means, when somewhere beneath the top layer of my thought process (hey, that was a cool metaphor!) i know what it means...

------------------
In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!




Posts:
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Registered:
Brandon
Well going to church is one thing that Christ wanted so for people to do to be Christian, but if you disagree then that your opinion.
As for divorce I donít believe in it since what God joins people can not separate.
We have the same methods but a slightly look at a different angle.
As for studying the bible alone I say that the majority will get it wrong and do get it wrong and not form orthodoxy if you look at the origins. Obviously we are not as knowledgeable as priests of bishops that know better but some think they do which that is not humble. Give credit where credit is due.
I find your answers satisfactory to leave it at what you said .

Arch
If all you have is Protestantism maybe itsí better than nothing, but for best results you know where to go.
I donít agree with both theories since I donít follow the old and I donít follow ex-Protestant delusions of evolution.
As for catholic priests they many over then of thousand cases of pedophiles in the church which is a haven for them since pedophilia is not allowed. Priests should get married and if they donít they should not be around kids which I donít get what the catholic church is doing to bring gay men and women in which the federal government as a big rap sheer and confession of many catholic priests which the catholic church doesnít do anything because a big chunk of priests would be fired and no one to do the communion. As for Buddhist, like budboy said its more like a philosophy, and they are very liberal and are ok with a lot of debauchery. And in your opinion why is orthodoxy not credible to you? What is it too conservative since it doesnít change? You wonít see an orthodox church supporting gay marriage unlike a few protestant churches.
You have to hear what people more experienced than the people you read and more experience and no one has 2000 years experience as the Orthodox Church and most have only 200 years. There is a reason why some disagree since they benefit, they donít know the language so well which is why you have many different bibles which Brandon pointed out one example, orthodox has always been attacked by the other churches like the Catholics in the crusades which they got a lot of power and money from attacking it and helped spread the Muslim religion because of it, and the protestants attack orthodox countries and bomb many churches and which helped Muslims burn all (over 100) Orthodox churches to bring in Muslims in, more orthodox people dies in the world wars and got no aid, and the list goes on with more BS. Once you think you know that is when you donít know. Like the Machiavelli (nick name the devil) which was a protestant or a former one said ďdonít let your left hand know what the right hand is doingĒ, so donít believe everything. In my opinion I think people should not convert if they donít really believe it and that goes for people that marry another and donít convert for God but for the other which dilutes the religion.

Well do you say you are always right? I even say to Brandon that he is wrong and he is humble enough to say he is not perfect just like everyone else. When I say something you reply with spite and verbal attacks sometimes. Come on try to have a level head. Its fun talking to Brandon even if we disagree but with you its can be annoying. I don t want you to listen to me or believe me, but I say my point of view and point you to a direction to ask for more which you mostly give excuses which as I said I am not going to force you to drink if you are thirsty, but you are not thirsty for knowledge and you are content so tell God you are content. And say I am to blame for everything and see what reaction you get.
So if you want to read my posts fine, if you have a question fine, if you have an opinion I donít care since I know its going to be redundant just like my replies to you.

As for wikipedia it was on cnn and they said how it has errors and the owner said it and that its people putting what they know and not everything about it which many things will have errors that are not true.

Bud
Breath bud

ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
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as for verbal attacks, I just followed suit in what you did, as you did with me. my weakness, sure. I'll admit that. Brandon is level headed and fair and I am not. I become emotionally involved many times to my own disadvantage. but that is not your concern, as the opposing party in the debate; your job is present a solid case for your point, and all I am really reading is you consistenly talking about my "personal faults" and expecting me to do your job of finding facts for your point by "going to a priest" and of the such. Frankly, by my experience, your reasoning seems to be closer to that of a child(amatuer). I'm not trying to insult you, I'll give my reasons for saying that.
1) you seem to be under the preconception that everybody holds your same worldview, and that people who disagree with you are just being "hardened" to the truth. you tell me I will not except the truth, but do you realize that to me, I might as well just place you as a false preacher, a teacher of lies? I could do that; instead, I ask for you to prove your point, instead...
2)you point to other sources such as priests. it is your job to convince in the debate, not your opponents. I have no desire to become orthodox. however, when I ask you to prove your point to me, don't point me somewhere else. I shouldn't do extra work to do your job.
3) you're preoccupied with the the opponents position, motivation and attitude and in doing so, ignoring the cases you should be making. most of your posts is telling me that I am closeminded, unwilling to learn the truth when I ask continually ask you to prove your point. I don't believe you to manipulative to use this as a decoy to get away from the real argument. frankly, arguing over this is getting old I'm gonna stop, seeing that you don't care on proving your point, and suffice in stating it and expecting me to accept it.
4) you seem to hold different groups of people as bearers of truth, or not. Liberals aren't automatically wrong and conservatives aren't automatically right. God didn't take truth and align it with the political parties at the time. Truth is truth no matter who says it or who claims it. just because the orthodox church claims something, and they have been constant for thousands of years doesn't make it truth. each statement much be evaluated seperately, unless it is made by divine voices, which we agree that the Bible is. while I don't necessarily believe that you completely fixated on parties, I have notices a tendency in you to point a party to mark the validity of a single point. you say someone is liberal to say they are wrong. well, it very could be that the liberals are right about some stuff. The Bible doesn't say that liberals are evil. it talks about the depravity of the world, and believe me, conservatives are also of the world, and some liberals are Christian. now, I'm not saying that parties can't have leanings toward truth or falsity, but they're standing doesn't prove a statement. This is why I continually ask you to prove a statement, instead of pointing to a priest.
5) you think you are really smart. for example, people like Brandon and Simontemplar are not so childish and they don't come off like that, but rather prove it by the points they make, rather than the manner they express it. this is also something I still suffer from, I admit. I have more to learn, and more I learn, the more I will realize that I don't know.
6) your grammar is somewhat jumbled. I know this isn't professional and all grammar and spelling rules don't need to be followed; for example, I rarely use capitalization. However, I have a hard time following what your sentences are saying. They are long and winding. With Brandon, Simon and others, it is rather easy to catch on what they are saying. I'm not trying to pick on you, and believe me, I am making no claim that my grammar is good. and this point is more of a sidepoint and does not necessarily point to your reasoning being childish.

again, I will say that these points are not meant as a person attack to you, but rather a collection of my observations. I had suffered many of those myself when I was younger and so I recognize them as symptoms of childish thinking. And I am definetly not making the rather presumptuous claim that I am over any of these.

I really want to stop with this banter about personal mattes in debate. I will, of course, read and consider your response to this; it is only fair. Other than that, I do not wish to continue along this path of the debate, and I will only respond to the points you make to prove your point, if you so wish to do so.
I apologize for any personal attacks I might have made, they are out of line.

quote:
And in your opinion why is orthodoxy not credible to you? What is it too conservative since it doesnít change?

too be honest, I am not familiar with orthodox beliefs, so I cannot make a sure claim. bring up points and I will say I disagree or agree with them. but from what very little I do know, such as use of Icons, I am not with.
it has nothing to do with it's conservative nature. If any bias is in place, it is because it is ritualistic and has too many man-made formailities. I don't accept "man-made" morallity rules. that's why I was preoccupied to give me scriptural proof on why animals are not allowed in a church building.

quote:
You wonít see an orthodox church supporting gay marriage unlike a few protestant churches.
some protestant churches do that, but they are wrong and I oppose them. I'm not a party player as I'm guessing you are, I'll side with truth no matter where it leads me. Man's organizations are of little relevance; God's Word makes all the difference. some protestant churches are misguided, and some aren't. I don't just take someone's word; I compare it with the Bible to see if it's accurate. If there is no apparent contradiction, I'll consider it and pray accordingly.
that's why statements like this:
quote:
have to hear what people more experienced than the people you read and more experience and no one has 2000 years experience as the Orthodox Church and most have only 200 years. There is a reason why some disagree since they benefit, they donít know the language so well which is why you have many different bibles which Brandon pointed out one example, orthodox has always been attacked by the other churches like the Catholics in the crusades which they got a lot of power and money from attacking it and helped spread the Muslim religion because of it, and the protestants attack orthodox countries and bomb many churches and which helped Muslims burn all (over 100) Orthodox churches to bring in Muslims in, more orthodox people dies in the world wars and got no aid, and the list goes on with more BS. Once you think you know that is when you donít know. Like the Machiavelli (nick name the devil) which was a protestant or a former one said ďdonít let your left hand know what the right hand is doingĒ, so donít believe everything.
mean very little to me. so what? it proves nothing.
in addition, protestants aren't unifed in their beliefs. we hold different views, and have developed denominations accordingly; an agreement to disagree, in many cases. saying some protestants support gay marriage means very little to the other's views.

quote:
Well do you say you are always right?

by no means. why do you think I continually asked for you to prove your point? I was giving you a chance to convince me. now, this is not saying that I think I am right. if I didn't think my beliefs was correct, why should belive them? I am open to convincing; according to some, too much. I didn't write you as a false preacher and resisted all you said; I asked you to convince me. reread my posts. It is not common to have someone ask to be convinced of a viewpoint. I challenge you. If you want, take it. if not, don't, but don't blame me for being closeminded.

and for wikipedia, it's not a totally reliable source, I know. not many Wiki's are. but in my experience, it has been pretty good. and besides, isn't CNN liberal? just playing with that last statement.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
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You say a lot of silly and incorrect things. I know I donít give examples but here is one, which you say I insulted you and you know it is not true and I never attack anyone first and I just go about saying my opinion about a general thing. Its not that I donít show your errors or prove it but that you donít care to listen or care to look so good luck closing your eyes.

You say you are not familiar with orthodoxy but I have posted many pages in the religious forum about it which you can read the 30+ pages about it which gives many good links and many helpful explanations. But one site that someone posted that gave good info was at www.goarch.org if you want to hear more and compare and understand why. As for icons that has been talked about in the site so go see or email a priest or someone on the site about it since I am sure they will have more answers if you want to know. If you donít want to go then what can I say since you learn better when you look for the answers. Learn the right way not the wrong way dude and to give a direction to get the answer is another form of giving you the answer which I am already helping you too much.
ďThe greatest power in the world is the power to grow.Ē
ďFrancis Bacon, the philosopher said, ďknowledge is power.Ē Knowledge of God is more than power; it is eternal life. It is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control.
The highest form of knowledge is not to know about God, but to know Him personally. Such knowledge is intimate, personal and based on love.Ēfrom a Christian article.

As for protestants supporting gays I mean that some churches support it which they seem divided which that is not a good thing to be divided. There is no authority and everyone does their own thing and leads people to the wrong direction which seem a bit disorganized as a whole which can hurt many souls, and have no real guidance and main authority. It is like a religion where people have to fend for themselves which many do and many get it wrong and that is sad to them and sad for others since a negative for others in its chain reaction. It is the most abused sect which many use it to their advantage and to their liking. That sect makes me very sad.

So stop this silliness and be more humble, but at least you have gotten better. Or are you afraid of my compliment and that you feel you are siding with me lol.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
of course you insulted me, you called me a liberal.
I'm no hippie!

quote:
to give a direction to get the answer is another form of giving you the answer

I wasn't asking for an answer; I had no question. you seem to misunderstand the situation.

quote:
There is no authority and everyone does their own thing and leads people to the wrong direction which seem a bit disorganized as a whole which can hurt many souls, and have no real guidance and main authority.

mischaracterization of the situation. there is authority and there is guidance. It comes from God and the Holy Spirit. Now that authority is better than any man's authority. in addition, there is order, authority and guidance in each individual church, and in the denominations. and people are not restricted to one type of church.
now, not all churches get that. and true, this is a problem with protestant, and namely non-denominational churches. But is it not better to have only a couple churches go astray than to have all of them led off by a bad authority? this is what happened to the Catholic Church. I cannot trust a man, or a group of men, with that much power. it is foolish.
"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man." Psalm 118:8
"The fear of man brings a snare, But whoever trusts in the LORD shall be safe." Proverbs 29:25
there is a problem, but entrusting the solution to man is not the answer.

besides, many protestant churches are on fire for God. they teachings are sound; and their love for God will blow you away. it has me. These types of churches were once persecuted and many killed because they did not agree with the "status quo" religion.
There are some that are not; I'm not going to deny that. alot teach flawed doctrines. liberal churches, for one, piss me off. but it is not in man's hand to control what is doctrine and what is not. you have to trust God with that. something to pray about, tho.

quote:
So stop this silliness and be more humble, but at least you have gotten better.

I have calmed down. and decided to take a less inflamatory approach. It was starting to wear off; either that or I'm getting numb. or both....*strokes chin*
basically, a couple things you would say would set me off. and since I did not really care what you think, I'd let myself flame. but your last two posts, you didn't really do that. one theory, atleast.

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Your replies are getting better As for saying that you remind me of a liberal that is not an insult but I am saying how you present yourself at times.

You have to look at quote in another way as well in what you said.
"It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man." Psalm 118:8
Yes
And the priests that have many years experience unlike us are close to Gods ways than us, and when we do not go to them for assistance then we are putting our confidence in man (us) since we are more into mans world than we are to god which even in the NT is says which I do not remember the exact quote or place but says that you can not follow mans and gods law equally and you know we follow mans law more than monks do for example.

Also the apostils were men, the New Testament was written by men (orthodox bishops and priests), we have Gods words explained and shown to us by men (priests), etc. If someone else that was not a priest in the apostolic succession then they would be man. If an atheist explains the bible to you then that is more mans view than Gods, if someone makes their own Christian sects then that would be mans view more than God, etc. Obviously this is my opinion but if you want to learn about God and keep growing you have to always ask.

Another interesting thing is that when an arch bishop gets his status they read a list of who he succeeded which goes all the way back to Christ in the order. I wonder what the number is up to now, which I have to see that one day, but if anyone knows then post it.

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited January 13, 2006).]

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
priests are still men; that has never changed. in addition, any man can draw close to God. priesthood is not needed. There is value in heeding a wiser man's advice, but they are not limited to priests, nor are priests necessarily wise. I've listened to some where I had to shake my head over the biblical incongruities of what they were saying. We have direct access to God via the Bible and prayer; the priest is an unnecessary middleman. priesthood is man's recognition of spiritual authority; not actual spiritual authority itself. just because somebody carries the title of a priest does not make them more spiritual than a non-priest.

and about Apostolic succession... it's not in the bible, or atleast I haven't seen it. unless you can prove it, it has no validity to me; it's manmade.

quote:
if someone makes their own Christian sects then that would be mans view more than God, etc.

God will give his truth to any person who seeks His view. they don't need to trace their order to an apostle. The Bible says " For everyone who asks receives, and the one who searches finds, and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Luke 11:10.
God can grant his truth to a person who seeks it with his whole heart; He does not show favorites to priests. If you want to grow, seek God, not a priest. listen to advice to those wiser than you, and if it includes a priest, than listen to a priest, but always match those words with the Bible and always put God's say higher.
the Pharisees had all the biblical knowledge, immense amounts, but they were depraved and proud and Jesus scorned them. Just because somebody is said to be spiritual or has a priest title doesn't make closer to God. Jesus chose his disciples from the average man, not the "spiritual" order.

and just because the orthodox church can trace their origins in name back to Jesus doesn't make them any more correct than anyone else, or any holier. The orthodox church has gone through so many changes since the early church it has no more claim than the protestant church. and besides, I could even argue that the Catholic Church has the best claim, because after all, Constantine (a secular ruler) moved the "capitol" of christendom, while many of the Bishops resisted and so thus the Orthodox church went with the "man," and the Catholic Churchs went with the "priests."
but then again, this succession thing is no more than a name, I really don't care. Truth is what matters, not names and titles.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
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If you want to take out the middle men then you will be lead to God as well. Everyone needs a guide and you donít tell someone that you will hike a dangerous mountain without one, and to do it alone is dangerous since the odds of you getting what it means wrong is very likely since many do as it shows. Many have a wrong idea of Christianity in many ways, but many do have a general understanding and think thatís all that is needed which is not true. Like I said the saying goes ďhe who thinks they know doesnít know at allĒ. It took 2000 years for people to rediscover the toilet by the ancient people, but Christianity is still understood by the ancient people who didnít take then 2000 years to get the toilet or religion. Itís easy for people to say they are humble, and many talk the talk but itís hard to walk the walk. The odd thing is that Christianity in its principals was practiced before Christ which it is not the Jewish religion which many donít know it, but I guess I have to post about that also in another post.

And against if you are going to reject the priests then you might as well reject the bible since they wrote that as well and the other canons which are meant for them to have to help guide others.

Apostolic succession in the bible I have talked about it in the other post so go read it.

Christ is the founder of the church which many Christian sects that came about within 200 years doesnít have Christ as the founder. I said this and more in the other post in the religious forum about orthodoxy so go read it and stop asking me to repeat which everything you asked and has been explained, so you giving your quote form Luke is right but I tell you where to look and you donít. You can not find truth if you donít look at the history well. Also some of your statements are incorrect.

Another note is that there was another Christian sect started by Jew when Christianity first stated to persuade people to go to a false Christian religion to weak it and break it apart. Like the saying goes divide and conquer and many Christian sects are helping to destroy it from the time Christianity was started. Even many here say the church can not stand divided and the many Christian sects are dividing it and not going to the original.

Well you have all the direction to get the answers so this post is closed.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
apparently.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
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