General Discussions

Christians in secular companies – jari

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
I have been thinking if is it bossible for a Christian to work in a secular software company. The thing is that I don't know what kind of moral standards the companies have these days and can they be trusted.

It would be impossible for me to work in a company that designs web sites for porn sites or for a casino as example. Not to mention a site for some religion or site that has some other anti-Christ material/content.
And what comes to software the scene is bit different, yet the root of the problem is the same.

So I would just like to ask from all you who work in secular companies, how good/bad things are? Can you as a worker say no to certain jobs?

------------------
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools. - Ecc 7:5

string LordAndSaviour() { return "Jesus Christ"; } // [VoHW][Blog]

d000hg
Member

Posts: 144
From: Durham, UK
Registered: 07-27-2004
Surely it's no different for software than any other industry. We are called to be salt, or a light. The New Testament certainly teaches that we need to go out amongst the un-saved otherwise how will they hear the Good News? And a big part of evangelism is relationships with people, rather than telling strangers to repent - letting your friends/colleagues see that there is something different about you that they want.

Reputable companies shouldn't do anything illegal because their reputation is built on their actions. But I agree most people think that lying a bit is OK to get the desired result and this is more likely to be the part that is tested than being asked to work in Porn or Crime. I figure though that showing you are unwilling to lie or deceive should be an asset to a company since they can trust you - that's what I'd say if I had to refuse to do something.

I do know a guy in my church who quite a new sales job after discovering the product was rubbish - he felt unable to lie for a living.

Briant

Member

Posts: 742
From: Stony Plain, Alberta, Canada
Registered: 01-20-2001
As you indicated Jari, it would depend largely on what the main purpose of the business is. However, most businesses are not involved in distributing morally questionable products or using morally questionable practices.

For example, I work for a company that makes financial software, and my main responsibilities include localizing code for Canada, general bug fixing, and taking care of the build and source control processes. I have no ethical concerns with my job.

Related to your original question, I am planning on doing the same with my own company - although I am a Christian, very few of my own projects are Christian-related.

------------------
Brian

"OOP programmers have a lot of class"

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
so, Jari, let's consider what will happen if Christians stay out of secular companies. do you think the product's moral value will go up or down? maybe what you pointed at is exactly the reason why we should work at secular companies, to prevent moral decay. and what about witnessing?

if us christians stay out of the battle, we shouldn't complain about war.

------------------
"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

Realm Master

Member

Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
quote:
Originally posted by jari:
I have been thinking if is it bossible for a Christian to work in a secular software company. The thing is that I don't know what kind of moral standards the companies have these days and can they be trusted.

It would be impossible for me to work in a company that designs web sites for porn sites or for a casino as example. Not to mention a site for some religion or site that has some other anti-Christ material/content.
And what comes to software the scene is bit different, yet the root of the problem is the same.

So I would just like to ask from all you who work in secular companies, how good/bad things are? Can you as a worker say no to certain jobs?



Yech! Disign a PORNO SITE??? NEver!!! But you must define secular.
Porno NO
Anti-Christ NO
Casino I dont think so... NO
etc. NO

but what about a place like BUngie?

gtg, edit this later!

------------------
(yes, i know im stupid)

Blessed are those who suffer for doing what is right.
The kingdom of hevan bleongs to them.-Matthew 5:10

PM ME YOUR DESCRIPTION OF ME! ILL PUT IT HERE!

Here's all the comments!

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Thanks for all the replies, good points and views there.

I'm not sure how can one change moral values of his company. Well I suppose that would require quite high position in the company.

------------------
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools. - Ecc 7:5

string LordAndSaviour() { return "Jesus Christ"; } // [VoHW][Blog]

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by Realm Master:

but what about a place like BUngie?

Well, I would not work for them if I'd had the change because I don't think games like halo are good entertainment for any one.

------------------
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools. - Ecc 7:5

string LordAndSaviour() { return "Jesus Christ"; } // [VoHW][Blog]

Jachin

Member

Posts: 113
From: Independence, OR, USA
Registered: 01-03-2003
Sometimes just for fun, I like to just disagree. (nothing personal)

I am not sure there is such a thing as a "Christian software company."
It could be that everyone that works at the company is a Christian, but don't they still need to produce a quality product that meets user requiremnets just like all the other software companies? If a non-Christian was more qualified for an open position than a Christian was would it be religious discrimination if you only hired Christians?

If you did have a job working for a non-Christian company that writes evil kill'em games or worse what if you found yourself drafted in a war forced to kill or be killed? Can God use you there? Does Jesus want us to be lights in the darkness or candles unto ourselves?

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by jachin:
If a non-Christian was more qualified for an open position than a Christian was would it be religious discrimination if you only hired Christians?

Not the way I see it because if you want to make a Christian values based game you have to hire Christians. Like you would be hiring modelers to model.

However I don't know the law that well but when it comes to God's will law becomes secondary.

------------------
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools. - Ecc 7:5

string LordAndSaviour() { return "Jesus Christ"; } // [VoHW][Blog]

HeardTheWord

Member

Posts: 224
From: Des Moines, IA
Registered: 08-16-2004
Be careful on your decision. While going into a filthy company with good intentions is a noble action, it is also stupid. You would be throwing yourself to the wolfs, and I can guarantee you that your chance of survival is small without other Christians to back you up.

I currently work at a large financial company. Most people there are "Christians" but few actually are. This is good in two ways. The people who are lost already know what Christians are like but are not yet saved. These people are searching and need to be shown the way to Christ. Other true Christians are like a safe haven. If you ever feel alone you can seek out other believers and share your burdens in prayer. There are some others that find Christianity as revolting and for now I stay clear of them. Perhaps your faith is stronger but I fear what could happen if I'm around them too long.

Do your research and pray about your job decision because it can be an important one. Involve God in your decision as much as you can.

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Thanks HTW, I will be careful on the decision.
I'm afraid of the wolfs but fortunately as long as I make the my decision for Him and stay true to God I wont be lost, knowing that gives courage.

------------------
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools. - Ecc 7:5

string LordAndSaviour() { return "Jesus Christ"; } // [VoHW][Blog]

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
It's all common sense really, you obviously are not going to work for a company that you know nothing about, if they are in that line of business then obviously don't work for them. If you get a job come up that would go against what we believe etc then tell them you aren't willing to work on that specific project, they can't fire you for that. That would be unfair dismissal.

Just be wise and pray. Lets face it we shouldn't be anywhere God doesn't want you to be right?

--D-SIPL

------------------
"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
I wish it would be just common sense but one problem that could arise in a big company or project is that you as coder don't know everything about the project...

------------------
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools. - Ecc 7:5

string LordAndSaviour() { return "Jesus Christ"; } // [VoHW][Blog]

Realm Master

Member

Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
*swartzanegger*

The wolves will Die! *cocks shotgun*

*normal voice again*

lol. joking.

hmm.... you have some very good points there...

it might be better to stay indie... =\

------------------
(yes, i know im stupid)

Blessed are those who suffer for doing what is right.
The kingdom of hevan bleongs to them.-Matthew 5:10

PM ME YOUR DESCRIPTION OF ME! ILL PUT IT HERE!

Here's all the comments!

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
i work for a large company that affects the lives of millions of peoples, and have battled with issues as to whether we abuse, profit off of the poor and vulnerable etc, or whether we are a helpful force in society despite our bottom line.

------------------
Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Realm Master

Member

Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
And i bet you won most of those arguments, eh?

------------------
(yes, i know im stupid)

Blessed are those who suffer for doing what is right.
The kingdom of hevan bleongs to them.-Matthew 5:10

PM ME YOUR DESCRIPTION OF ME! ILL PUT IT HERE!

Here's all the comments!




Posts:
From:
Registered:
********************* Almost ALL JOBS ARE NON CHRISTIAN! Why?*******************
Donít put fuel to the fire. I think that if you help your secular boss get richer they will use it to donate to secular causes. But the problem is that most jobs are run by people that are anti Christians and no matter what we do we are helping ourselves kick our own asses. Most or all entertainment, music, banks, stocks, news, fashion, and a few others are run by people that are anti Christian. Well over 60% of the rich people in the US are against Christianity. No matter what you do from buying food with your credit cards, buying gas, news papers, paying bills, go to liberal colleges, work in liberal states, and more we are kicking our own asses multiple times every hour which many do not realize. I wonder if the owner of this site got the domain name from a Christian or a non Christian. Do you like to take joy rides a lot in your car to and they pay for gas that helps fund Muslims to be the #1 growing religion? The list goes on. You have to slowly try to work and buy things Christian or else your point on earth has been in vain since you help spread non Christianity unknowingly is the scary part and that is the most dangerous kind of thing to do. Evil is done by not fully knowing what you are doing. No one says they are evil or want to do it but many that do donít know it. This is like the same thing.

I think if you have the choice to choose then you should choose Christian people to work with and buy and use products run by Christians.

Whatís the point to work hard for a secular person to give your money to Christian charities when your non Christian boss get rich that will give 10-100 times more money than you of the that takes your money and gives it to non Christian organizations that attack and go against Christian views. Which is why every little thing you do affects everything like a domino?

If you need money the fine work for a secular person but you should use it to be able to find a better place to work that supports your views or else you are making things worse for your self, and for all other Christians and that unchristian. You will work 2-4 times more to get what you want if you do work for a secular company and I do not mean the extreme but the moderate ones like new companies like the New York Times for example. Obviously some donít think about this which is because marketing works which many Christians help sell crap since they donít realize it. You can not draw the line to say one is ok to work for over another.

The choices you make are have to and want to. If you have to work for a non Christian boss for any business then you should find another job soon, if you want to then you should try to understand the chain reactions of your consequences. It is like pool in that you have to see that always the way things are made by chain reactions. So if you found a good job to work for a non Christian and you need the job then you have to take it as a stepping stone. Donít let the Liberal non Christian media sell you lies that what you do is not good since they are benefiting from you not thinking.

Other religious groups (non Christians) understand this and mainly hire their own. They benefit 10 times more since they just donít get money for work they also support each other and boss to give more money for their causes for their views to work more for them to get more money.

So choose right. Either you live by your principals and understand your consequences to be part of the solution or you do not which makes you part of the problem. So remember what your point for living is.

fearless

Member

Posts: 91
From: Romania, Tg Mures
Registered: 11-26-2005
quote:
Originally posted by jari:
Not the way I see it because if you want to make a Christian values based game you have to hire Christians. Like you would be hiring modelers to model.

I'll disagree with this. Take 'The Passion of Christ' for instance. It's not a PC game but I think it is still a good example. There may have been some Christians in the shooting crew but I doubt the crew was made only out of Christians. Most probably Christians were not even the majority there. Still look what movie came out. Many Christian leaders think it is one of the most powerful Christian movie ever made.
Of course you can`t bring in a Christian team a person that is drug addicted and won`t repent. However I think many times it is OK to have non-christians work side by side with christians even when you work on something that it is intended to promote christian values.

[This message has been edited by fearless (edited November 27, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by fearless (edited November 27, 2005).]

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
Aack, lost my reply . My browser messed up the first time I tried to reply.

But it seems that warsong is being a bit too pessimistic. Chritianity is the largest religion in the world, and most statistics shows it's actually a majority in the USA.

quote:
Whatís the point to work hard for a secular person to give your money to Christian charities when your non Christian boss get rich that will give 10-100 times more money than you of the that takes your money and gives it to non Christian organizations that attack and go against Christian views.

A bit of research shows that Christian charities (or charities with a Christian founder or roots) actually top the list - many are bringing in billions.

But yeah, I do plan on doing my homework when I look for my career job.

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited November 28, 2005).]

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by CobraA1:

But it seems that warsong is being a bit too pessimistic. Chritianity is the largest religion in the world, and most statistics shows it's actually a majority in the USA.


Well I wouldn't trust those statistics. Some one once told in a online forum that almost every one in his school claims to be a christian and yet he's school is full of gangs and violence. That's just once example on how the statistics are missleading.

------------------
And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: - Mar 11:9

string LordAndSaviour() { return "Jesus Christ"; } // [VoHW][Blog]

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by fearless:
I'll disagree with this. Take 'The Passion of Christ' for instance. It's not a PC game but I think it is still a good example. There may have been some Christians in the shooting crew but I doubt the crew was made only out of Christians. Most probably Christians were not even the majority there. Still look what movie came out. Many Christian leaders think it is one of the most powerful Christian movie ever made.
Of course you can`t bring in a Christian team a person that is drug addicted and won`t repent. However I think many times it is OK to have non-christians work side by side with christians even when you work on something that it is intended to promote christian values.

I suppose non-Christian could work with a Christian team as long as they are not the ones doing the "image" of the game/movie. But what I was thinking is that non-Christian should not try to do anything "Christian values" based. I'm talking about the importance of being led by Holy spirit to serve the Lord.
Because that's what we should no, all in glory of God.

------------------
And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord: - Mar 11:9

string LordAndSaviour() { return "Jesus Christ"; } // [VoHW][Blog]

[This message has been edited by jari (edited November 28, 2005).]