GUMP Member Posts: 1335 From: Melbourne, FL USA Registered: 11-09-2002 |
Focus on the Family recently discussed the video game industry on their radio broadcasts: http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/Focus_on_the_Family/Archives.asp Talking to other major Christian developers in the industry the overall impression is "disappointment". An example:
quote: This series of radio broadcasts could have ramifications like seriously stunting the growth of the Christian game industry for years by scaring off any potential investors. Not to mention that calling the entire gaming industry a "great demonic and Satanic evil" will just push the mainstream industry even further away. My notes while listening.... Part 1 Part 2 -- Dobson doesn't have time to play video games...but he is making an authorative opinion via a platform that will affect many others? |
zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
What you have to remember is people like that will always push their ignorant agenda. Same uphill battle Christian music faces (and same uphill battle that tends to cause most christian bands to either go secular or water down their art so much that they end up sucking royal). Honestly, people like that tick me off---they give christianity a bad name and turn many ppl off---that is why I sometimes chose to refer to myself as a Jesus Freak---because when I hear the word christian I think of people like that and I believe Jesus demonstrated against losers like that (just look how many times he went to bat against the pharisees--same kinda ppl that take God's message and add in their own rules). Honestly, that is also why I don't go to church---I run into too many people like that. If ignorance is bliss, some people seem to be trapped in a lifetime vaction to disneyland LOL!! But I believe if you make games from an artistic point of view and have God be your guide, you will make something awesome regardless if mamby-pamby loosers get their underwaear in a kink over it or not. ------------------ |
CapnStank Member Posts: 214 From: Sask, Canada Registered: 12-16-2004 |
Over a quick skim the one line that disturbed me most was the one about gamers being anti-social. I find that to be completely opposite. I may be called a "gamer" as well as all my friends. In my view we are probably the most social persons I know. By the way being social does not include getting drunk off your *** every weekend for cheap giggles. We hang out, do things that friends should do with little risk to others, the enviroment or any sort of thing. Other people that I look at are social yes, but they'd throw away a friendship or relationship of anysort to get ahead in life. You can be social, but unless you have the values you're just an anus. Basically I'm saying that being a gamer doesn't limit your social abilities. ------------------ |
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CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
Yeah multiplayer encourages team-work on the spot, quick thinking, etc. Anyone who becomes violent due to playing games probably had problems to begin with (two guys tried re-enacting a GTA car crash scene or something like that, one of them died, no loss to society as far as I'm concerned). Supposedly the brain does treat video game violence as reality while you're playing (sometimes I lean to the left or right on the couch while trying to avoid being shot in FPS games), but I don't know anyone who puts down the controller and heads outside to snap necks. Is this just the older generation reacting to change in teen habits or what? |
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zookey Member Posts: 1902 From: Great Falls, Montana, USA Registered: 04-28-2002 |
I dunno---my opinion is that, if you cannot tell fantasy and reality, you shouldn't play games---although I grew up in a group home for 10+ years (didn't do anything bad---but my parents worked there full time 24/7 so they were there with me all day and night) and, from what I saw, cheese is right---there was a pre-condition there (usually family based, but sometimes also blame-able on Fetal Alcohol Syndrom and such) and video games (or MTV and movies back in the 80s---most of the time we were in the group home was the 80s and early 90s) were a small part (like microscopic) of a bigger problem involving a combination of negative decisions by both the parents and the kid that was in the group home---oops gotta go for now hehe just got off work YES YES YES ------------------ |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
a person who can't tell the difference between fantasy and reality has mental problems. argh, trying to find the verse where Paul says to keep one's beliefs between themselves and God. it's said in conjunction with keeping the Sabbath and stuff. ------------------ |
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GUMP Member Posts: 1335 From: Melbourne, FL USA Registered: 11-09-2002 |
Here is a game that is definitely worth sounding an alarm on. http://www.pluggedinonline.com/extrafeatures/a0002217.html
quote: With motives like that in making games...well, the gameplay may have been good but that's just sick, no matter whether it was marketed toward "adults" (however immature they may be for desiring such content just for the sake of it). |
CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
quote: What? If I heard the audio clip correctly, they did in fact admit it's an open game, they're just taking a different point of view than you are - they're claiming that any questionable content should be carefully controlled.
quote: Bah, Doom 3 is as flat as the polys it's made of. It looks awesome, but seriously, it's shallow. Forget using God's word and real spiritual warfare stuff, forget about learning lessons about life or whatnot, pull out your BFG and shoot all the little demon children . . . Bah, it's just as shallow as any other FPS on the market. It also makes some people feel horrible, which would be good if it had some redeeming purpose, such as teaching a moral lesson of something. Personally, just throwing evil at a player to shoot at with a rifle isn't quite the lesson I had in mind . . . Personally, I don't think what they're shooting at matters so much as what it's teaching them.
quote: Tack that on as another problem. Doom3 isn't a Christian game or anything, so it doesn't do any "discussion" of evil.
quote: I agree. Right now, it's usually limited to large casino webpages, but they're very obvious and easy to avoid (and usually require credit cards, which kids don't have access to). There are some exceptions to the rule, but they seem to be rare so far.
quote: Agreed
quote: I think that is why he had a couple of other people in the discussion . . .
quote: If I remember Dr. Dobson correctly, I believe he's not too fond of spending a lot of time in front of the TV, either.
quote: You're kinda right - but it does seem that a lot of kids are spending a lot of time on just the games and not as much on other activities.
quote: Personally, I go to church for my own benefit, and so I can benefit from hearing God's word and participate in the sacrements. Not going to church because you dislike the people at the church is akin to not taking a shower/bath because you don't like other people who take showers/baths. You're not just going to church to communicate with other people (although that is usually part of it), you're going there to hear God's word and participate in the sacrements.
quote: Unfortunately, that describes a lot of children, especially younger ones. I've heard of kids waaay too young playing games that are rated "M" and stuff. And even if they don't act out everything, many games do seem to have a negative impact. Just because a lot of people aren't acting everything out doesn't mean there's no impact. I'm not saying all games are evil, but it does seem that parents have to figure out what's acceptable and what's not. ------------------ 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. [This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited July 08, 2005).] |
Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
Wow... that game sounds crazy, I heard of another called 21 to Life or something similar. Game play basically consists of living a life as a criminal and doing evil actions for fun. This just goes to show that people don't change much over the centuries with the new technology, discoveries etc..., they just continue to find more sophisticated ways of expressing the evil in their hearts. ------------------ |
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GUMP Member Posts: 1335 From: Melbourne, FL USA Registered: 11-09-2002 |
Sims: My comment had a very narrow focus. In an open style of gameplay, whether it's the Sims or any other game, it's going to be impossible to guard against the player making situations to fit any ontoward desire. At the same time it's apparent that EA is actively supporting the ability to have such situations...which obviously isn't good. Then again, how do you balance out the player's ability to make choices without erecting annoying barriers? After all, a "bad situation" might be due to a mistake that'll be destrimental to the player's progress, not something the player seeked. DOOM3: I don't actually like DOOM3 as a game (boring!) but I hate to see people arbitrarily bash the game as "satanic" as if it somehow supports the occult. If the situational violence was there to teach a lesson...well, I doubt we'll see something like that from id any time soon. In short it's very violent and gory and as you say there isn't any point beyond "Good vs evil. Fight!" BUT Focus's report on the subject was very unbalanced. Also, when I made my "How can you discuss the extent evil will go to if you don't SHOW the depths of evil?" comment at the end of the paragraph I was thinking more in general (obviously I didn't make that clear). In DOOM3 the gore wasn't there to be discussed but to be used as a fear/horror-inducing prop piece. But by Focus's line of reasoning games like EW: SOL might even be considered "satanic". Other Guests: If I remember the shows correctly they may have had other guest speakers but for the exception of the guy from Digital Praise, who didn't speak much, the majority of them were not gamers and had very little personal experience with games. Then in the second broadcast the main speaker was that lady who was hostile to every genre of video game out there. Even educational games only received a reluctant "okay" from her. While the first broadcast left me a little disapointed that they didn't mention the Christian game industry at large the second broadcast just left a bitter taste in my mouth. The first broadcast pointed out worrisome trends and problems parents should look out for. The second just took an extreme view of the entire video game industry. Church: Definitely agree that Church shouldn't be skipped...unless you can't help it. If there aren't any good, Bible-teaching Churches in the area start a home church. [This message has been edited by Gump (edited July 09, 2005).] |
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CapnStank Member Posts: 214 From: Sask, Canada Registered: 12-16-2004 |
But in reality you must look at it from both sides. Yes, you do believe that some things are too violent, or their morals are illogical but do you have much power in the direction of the games? Well in reality no. Game developers make the games bloody, or sexually suggestive because it sells. The rants of some people against that certain action wont change their minds in much manner. Personally speaking I have no problems with the paths that games have taken. I know that if something is shallow and boring I'll chose not to play it. But I don't allow things like violence to stand in the way of a good game for me. I play Halo 2, yes, it is violent! But if you actually get into it and look at the Halo series its very well put together with an interesting story line. Choice is what drives the games. If people chose not to agree with violent or sexist games they'd be done with. But people don't. Parents refuse to take an active role in their children's experiences. I can't stand when I run into a racist, smack-talking, 13 year old on Xbox Live! I actually found one kid who's father encouraged this behavior. I was just joking when I asked the kid "Does your daddy know you play such violent video games?" Well one thing lead to another and his father was soon on the microphone bitching far worse than his child. I admit it could've been an older sibling but that isn't very good either now is it? Down to the bottom line here. I really don't like how people chose not to look at games or music or whatever with an open mind because a simple belief they follow disagrees with it. Religion is one of the things that I don't like because of the way it influences people's decisions for its own benifit. I know too many people who refuse to listen to a certian band because they don't fit into their prefured genre. Don't hate a game because its stereotyped as violent or something like that. Once you've played the game yourself for a good period of time you can make your own educated guess. Not recite someone else's who told you what to think about it.
[This message has been edited by CapnStank (edited July 09, 2005).] |
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GUMP Member Posts: 1335 From: Melbourne, FL USA Registered: 11-09-2002 |
You're looking at a 10+ year Bungie fan. I have nothing bad to say about Halo.  |
SSquared Member Posts: 654 From: Pacific Northwest Registered: 03-22-2005 |
I have only listened to part 1 and was rather disappointed. What bothered me most was the lack of alternatives. They represented video games as if they all fall into one category. Once or twice, the guy from PluggedIn chimed in by saying not all games are like GTA, but they never mentioned an alternative title. I don't necessarily disagree with their comments regarding the games, I just wish they had mentioned some cleaner games and Christian game developers. Although I agree it was a shame how FotF so easily promoted their own game, but regarding Digital Praise, I hope no one is upset with Digital Praise themselves. I have met some of the company at the CGDC and they are as much trying to make an impact on Christian games just like any other company. I spent some time talking with Peter Fokos at CGDC 2003 and he was a wonderful man, full of great gaming insight. I'll try to get to Part 2 this weekend. |
mr_friend Member Posts: 17 From: Bonner Springs, KS, USA Registered: 06-19-2005 |
Points to concider: 1) A game that has "evil demon" creaturs to kill, sounds like a good Idea right? I mean you fighting aginst evil right? OR... Maybe there is more to it than that. The bible never says anything about killing demon's or evil spirits. As a servent of Christ you are NOT the hero, Jesus is, you are the "saved". It does say in the bible what ever is good and holy and Godly these things you SHOULD think about. Having evil before you in a video game where your are protraying the sin of killing, searching through imoral and impure situations, and on top of all that at the games concusion you will gain a sense of pride in how YOU ALONE were able to master controal over the forces of darkness. You do not conqure your life here on earth, you do not conqure sin, Jesus does and by His power alone, so that on the day of judgement you have no great victory over sin, nothing to boast about, beause it is God and how Great God's power was to reach down and through you defeat the sin in your life. 2) I did hear the Broad cast, as I listen to Focus on the Family sometimes while I am at work. They did omit the efforts of people trying to make Christian Video Games, but at the same time promoted the video game they had just created. I am not here to defend their borad cast, but I do want to be very clear that TV, Movies, and Video Games bring a level of imorality, corruption, deception that even the besst Christians are not immune to. Did you ever thing that God choose satain because you could defeat him by any human power, or..... Was he choosen becaues he was stronger, smarter, faster, more skilled, more crafty, and in every way superior to you and I? It's like you have a rock and a sling shot, aginst a USA armored tank division. It is clearly a no contest situation, the enemy will defeat you with out even trying, exept that the infinate power of God is so great that He can use the rock and sling shot in your hand to defeat the division of armored tanks. So to apply this line of thinking to the Video games if you feel like a video shows people getting killed, stabbed, murdered, steeling, theft, (WORSHIP OR GLORIFICATION OF ANYTHING OTHER THAN GOD), sexual immorality...ect. Continuing to use that game is sin, because the Bible does say "For him that knows good and doesn't do it, IT IS SIN". 3) Last point "Have no other God's before me", this is key Guys and Girls. Even if you played a game that was glorifying and honoring to God, you would still need to be careful of that game becoming like a God, or your computer like a God, because it is sucking up your time, enery, and attention. I have personaly left my computer unpluged for days at a time, because sometime I feel lead to. If Eating and food can be concidered a God, (NOTE: this is the reason for fasting to not eat and pray shows that God is more important than food) than computers could also be seen in the same mannor. ------------------ |
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CapnStank Member Posts: 214 From: Sask, Canada Registered: 12-16-2004 |
I completely understand how you view MMORPG's where you fight over a demon's conquest of humanity. If you believe that the game is moral because of the actions you're obviously way off. If they wanted to make those games legitemate they'd have to have massive amounts of dialog for a discussion/pacifist approach to the solution. Which... once again, is no fun. I look at Diablo 2 and understand that it has alternate ways to "fight the evil." These methods are quite coincidentally, related to reality in some ways. You can fight evil as A) The Paladin. Using faith and obedience to gain power from God giving you the strength to repel your enemies. Or B) The Necromancer. Using Magic and spirits of the dead you use evil to fight evil. Now I understand that I don't believe in either aspects I've outlined, I still view them in a virtual world. But in reality they link quite nicely through a Christian perspective. You can believe and have faith in Jesus/God, or you can go it your own and smack anyone who just smacked you. ------------------ |
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mr_friend Member Posts: 17 From: Bonner Springs, KS, USA Registered: 06-19-2005 |
Well as far as actual game content goes I don't know of any way to bring the reality of trusting God, and learning from Him into a computer game or any other valuable Christian experiance. But I see no reason that any Christian Game Programmer could not write a game that is about praising God, after all if a game is saying "Praise Jesus!", "What an awsome God we serve!"..ect. What better thing to have in your head than a catchy phrase of "Praise Jesus!" ------------------ |
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GUMP Member Posts: 1335 From: Melbourne, FL USA Registered: 11-09-2002 |
I'm certain David relied on and trusted in God when he entered battles...which he actively participated in. But, yes, you can't fight demons on a physical level unless they happen to be possessing someone (and you don't want to be hurting the person anyway). |
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mr_friend Member Posts: 17 From: Bonner Springs, KS, USA Registered: 06-19-2005 |
quote: CapnStank, as a man who can't accpet Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior what is evil? Since you would need to know what evil was before you can fignt it I would like to know. ------------------ |
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CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
cough it's a point of view aherm |
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paranoia Junior Member Posts: 3 From: ------------- Registered: 06-17-2005 |
So...yea...why do you need to believe in Jesus to know what evil is? Im sure if a worshipper of satan knows that blowing up London is evil. Just because someones does not believe doesnt mean that they dont have common sense. Evil means "Morally bad or wrong; wicked", anyone can use that to any perspective they want. Think a little before a response |
goop2 Member Posts: 1059 From: Registered: 06-30-2004 |
Just to say Welcome to Christian Coders. Hope you enjoy your stay
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mr_friend Member Posts: 17 From: Bonner Springs, KS, USA Registered: 06-19-2005 |
quote: This that phrase was offensive to me, because in the Christian prespective 'Evil' is disobedience to God (the Christian/Jewish God). What seperates a holy man from an evil man is obediance to the word of God. This is the reason that "Good people" will go to hell, it's not if you were kind or nice, although these are good qualities to have. I don't want to argue what you should think but I would like to make sure that if you measure something by the word of God, or the "Christian prespecitive" that it is not a guess or made up, that it can be referenced. So to show I am not blowing smoke here, look at the very first sin, Adam and Eve just disobeyed what God had told them, that was the sin they commited, that disobedience is what started the wickedness and evilness of men that would follow. Gary ------------------ |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
quote: then it is meaningless. True, morality must be defined. We Christians believe God defines it. frankly, is not morality a mute point if everybody can define their own? If that is the case, there is no evil and there is no good. It has no use; it cannot be used to judge, because it shifts at the will of each person. what's the use of a scale that gives relative readings to any person's whim? no use. if you don't believe in a God, I don't see why you should believe in morality. ------------------ |
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CapnStank Member Posts: 214 From: Sask, Canada Registered: 12-16-2004 |
First point, I'll let you guys know that in the future paranoia will be fighting for our side... Second off, you think of me as a baffoon because I disagree with your statements. Don't ever steriotype people because they disagree with you, I'm not dumb and I have more common sence than most people here do... from what I've seen. EDIT: You made my day, offending you with such a simple statement actually made me chuckle quite a bit. I enjoyed it. ------------------ [This message has been edited by CapnStank (edited July 12, 2005).] |
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CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
You're right, I don't believe in morals. Just points of view. |
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GUMP Member Posts: 1335 From: Melbourne, FL USA Registered: 11-09-2002 |
Please start another thread if you guys want to debate. I have no interest in any further unintelligible arguments. |
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CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
Alright, games. We can stop buying bad ones, but kids will keep getting Mature games. And there's only a real problem when the person is affected after they're done playing. Maybe we should have to prove our age as well as our IQ... only for games that would make little idiots go violent of course. |
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CapnStank Member Posts: 214 From: Sask, Canada Registered: 12-16-2004 |
The only alarming on video games has to be done about who plays them apperenlty. A game is only as bad as one makes it. If you want to repeat violence from a virtual enviroment you can be stamped retarded. If you think that because you're a loser in life you can act cool over a microphone on the internet you should be stamped retarded. I think that we can all agree on this, although I know there'll be a few debates whether or not a rubber stamp is entirely nessassary. Mabye we can skip hitting them with the stamp and hit them with a car, better yet, a bus! Saves society a few misfits. But wait, society welcomes intellectually challenged people into their arms. Proof? Paris Hilton. That skank would be trailer trash any day if it wasn't for her money. People make horrible idols of the worst things. EDIT: The only unintelligable part of the conversation was you ripping off other people's work without credit given... then you demand sources for stuff that is our opinion rather than a cookie cut opinion of someone else's. [This message has been edited by CapnStank (edited July 16, 2005).] |
Klown Member Posts: 78 From: baraga, mi , united states of america Registered: 11-10-2004 |
All debates aside. Pretty much every thing CapnStank has said here I agree with. He's said things from an open mind and posted very well thought out and inteligent. Many may disagree with what he said and even what he is or isnt. Yet he's hit the nail on the head repeatedly. And I agree with him. Well thought out post's man. *two thumbs up ebert style* ------------------ |
crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
i think ppl should not worry so much about blood and gore... if you get some kind of sick pleasure from it...there's something wrong with you if it makes u physically ill to see it, stop playing... other than that, its just there for the effect. Regardless of morals, action based games are better with blood and gore. it adds to the effect. pressing a button and watching the enemy fall over doesnt draw you into the game nearly as much as when there is some blood/gore effect. Lets not make excuses. blood/gore draws you into the game. it makes for a more engaging and "enjoyable" gaming experience. And by "enjoyalbe" i dont mean like ,"OOOHHH yipeee! look at his guts! Yippeeeee!" I mean, the game pulls u in, just as any other form of entertainment should. Books are creditied for "pulling the readers in"....why shouldn't games also receive the same credit? y must the game industry be punished for what is valued in other forms of entertainment???? ------------------ |
HanClinto Administrator Posts: 1828 From: Indiana Registered: 10-11-2004 |
quote: How you use the tool of blood/gore is what makes the game more engaging and overall enjoyable. I think I know what you're saying, but it's not the only way to make an engaging story.
quote: Well, extreme gore isn't necessarily valued in movies either. There are some very gory movies that really stink (Event Horizon?). Would it be fair to say that blood/gore is just a tool? It's a total mark of the B-Movie to have blood/gore (and skin/sex) for the mere purpose of sensationalism. The difference in the use of blood/gore in Passion/Braveheart/Private Ryan vs. other movies is what they're trying to accomplish with it. So can a Christian game have blood/gore? Well, can the Bible? So of course the answer is yes. But why are you trying to add blood/gore? For sensationalism? Or for effect to drive home a point? But I would definately not say that you can't have an emotionally-drawing game without blood/gore? Definitely. Just look at Zelda and Final Fantasy. Respectfully, ------------------ |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
quote: Hush, don't tell CheeseStorm stuff can be "better" - remember, he doesn't believe in "better," just "points of view" (whatever that means).
quote: I've actually encountered people who will have that sort of reaction . . .
quote: Trust me - blood & gore are poor ways to pull people in. Most good game creation websites focus on immersion - a much broader subject in which blood & gore pay a very minimal role. A lot of top games have characters that just fade away. Personally, I play all my games at the lowest blood & gore level possible - and they're just as fun without it. Maybe it's because I'm more of a thinker and strategy person? I play a lot of strategy games . . . ------------------ 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. |
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ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
I actually prefer my games with the gore set high. cuz. it's not like it's real anyways. ------------------ |
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crazyishone Member Posts: 1685 From: Registered: 08-25-2004 |
hmmmm..... but one has to admit, sensationalism is not a bad thing (from a secular and marketing p.o.v.) the goal of the game industry in america (unfortunately) is to sell games...there are few american-made games that have any other motivation behind them. makers will put any and everything in a game, just to make it sell...I honestly don't think many game developers give a rat's a** about the content of the game. If they couold remake pong and in doing so make a billion dollars, they would do it. And they'd add porn and gore for an extra million. lol. This is why I have a greater admiration for japanese game developers. ------------------ |
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CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
Confused by different points of view, eh? Unsurprising... Some people like gory games and other people don't. That doesn't mean that one group of people is right and the other is wrong. Games are ranked from different points of view. |
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CapnStank Member Posts: 214 From: Sask, Canada Registered: 12-16-2004 |
Ok let's clear this up for Cobra because the simple concept seems to be beyond his grasp. BETTER is opinion. Opinion is someone's point of view. So when you say/think your beliefs are BETTER than mine that is your opinion, neither of us have proof of it being at all superior to someone else's. I thought we've been through this, or did you ignore it? ------------------ |
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GUMP Member Posts: 1335 From: Melbourne, FL USA Registered: 11-09-2002 |
quote: In only one post in that entire thread did I "rip off people's work" as you call it when I copied and pasted it from a blog I maintain. I posted the article in its entirety, never claiming it was my own work, BUT I didn't post the link and then HanClinto pointed it out. The reason I posted the article instead of just the link was--as I told HanClinto in an IM back then--because most people tend to not read a link. It's rather obvious you weren't going to bother researching anything on your own so I was hoping that by posting it in its entirety you would actually read the article (which was rather good as an overview of ID). Obviously that evil little plan back-fired. In any case, you utterly failed to answer my more pertinent posts in that thread. Your posts ignored the stickier issues entirely, relied on personal insults, and thus could be rightfully be considered "unintelligible" if the debate had been monitored by judges. I'm saying this not to insult you but to state a fact. If you're going to enter into a "proper" debate you need to avoid using logical fallacies and learn the rules. Otherwise you're going to continue frustrating everyone who takes such discussions seriously (which might be your intent...). [This message has been edited by Gump (edited July 31, 2005).] |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
Cute. Sooo predictable . . .
quote: Thanks, Mr. Obvious.
quote: Did I say that? The question is not whether my beliefs are better than yours, the question is mostly how violence affects the mind, and how it affects one's life, if I remember the topic correctly. Yeah, there's some stuff about Christian morals, but that's to be expected from a Christian Of course you have neither proven that the "every moral decision is merely an opinion" view is correct, nor have you disproven Christian morality, so I'm free to stick with my Christian morals. Merely stating that something is 100% opinion does not prove that it is. Correct me if I'm wrong, but plenty of people use logical arguments, statistics, and other types of reasoning to help them make moral decisions.
quote: Well, you never really proved that the world runs on opinions, so my opinion is that there's more to the world than opinions. And unless you prove my opinion to be wrong, I think I'll keep my opinion =). ------------------ 7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. 8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. [This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited August 01, 2005).] |
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CapnStank Member Posts: 214 From: Sask, Canada Registered: 12-16-2004 |
As far as I read this topic wasn't much of a bash war until you showed up. It was civil but look at the ruins you've created! I attempted to stay on topic where nessasary but that doesn't mean much. Cobra it appears you don't like our presence very much, is that so? Mean enough whining from me, I think its time this topic got trashed. ------------------ |
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HanClinto Administrator Posts: 1828 From: Indiana Registered: 10-11-2004 |
quote: Gump is a great guy, and I apologize if I slammed him in my reply to his post. I just didn't want people to think that Stank and Cheese were ignoring an essay Gump wrote just for the readers of this forum. I don't fault him for his post, and I hope noone else does either. --clint ------------------ |
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CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
Uhh I was one of the few people who actually did read that whole thing so ease off me. And Cobra you acted confused, I explained, and you ridiculed my explanation. Need a slap much? Yeah as for the thread, it takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch, idiot kids should be forced to play Pong until their thirties, if they have to play something. |
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paranoia Junior Member Posts: 3 From: ------------- Registered: 06-17-2005 |
This was a bit back but whatever, and very similar to my first post. but why, does someone think that people who dont believe in god, dont have morals...It just doesnt make sense. humans differ from animals because we have things like empathy. Therefore, killing someone is wrong, because I can feel the pain I would be causing to everyone related to that person, I dont need God to tell me thats wrong. If someone killed someone I knew, I would be devasted, therefore I wouldnt do it, because its morally wrong. Just as a sidenote, im not here to shut down peoples beliefs or try to change them, im just fascinted by religion and how and why they believe and its affect on basically our entire world. but things like these are just plain stupid.. |
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HanClinto Administrator Posts: 1828 From: Indiana Registered: 10-11-2004 |
Hi Paranoia! Welcome to CCN! So you believe that morals are internal? Something innate to most of us? To ask the obvious question, what if I don't feel remorse for my killings? What's to stop me from going over there and killing you? (morally) Because *you* don't want me to? But those are your morals, not (hypothetically) mine, so they wouldn't apply to me. So the question, Paranoia, is who decides the standard? If I decide the standard, then it's (hypothetically) okay for me to kill you. If you decide the standard, then it's not okay. Or is there even a universal "standard"? Is there absolute right and wrong? Respectfully, ------------------ |
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CapnStank Member Posts: 214 From: Sask, Canada Registered: 12-16-2004 |
Sorry to resurect this... Just a convenient chance to post someone else's opinion on the same topic. I can't say it any better than this guy did: http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/index.php ------------------ |
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CobraA1 Member Posts: 926 From: MN Registered: 02-19-2001 |
quote: Perhaps you can understand this: If CheeseStorm is trying to convince me that everything is "just a point of view", and that there is no right and wrong, then the burden of proof is on him to convince me that I should take his point of view. I do not need an explanation, I already know his point of view. I need a reason to believe that his point of view is a correct interpretation of reality. ------------------ |
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HanClinto Administrator Posts: 1828 From: Indiana Registered: 10-11-2004 |
quote: Nice rant Stank, thanks for the link. It was a good read. --clint ------------------ |
. I see this as mostly a parent problem.