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Quick Question – CheeseStorm

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
So if someone is good but doesn't believe in Jesus, do they still go to Hell, according to your religion?
Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
Short Answer:
Yes.

Longer Explained Answer:
The Bible says that there is no one good. Not even one. Each of us has gone astray, each of us has gone our own way. We have all said, "God! Bug off! Leave me alone! I want to live my life how I want to live it! You just stay out of it!" If not verbally then we've done so through our lives. Once someone sins, he can't take it back, it is final. God requires that someone be punished for that persons sin. Jesus, God the Son willfully accepted to be punished for everyone's sin, past, present and future. The only way is through Him. If you are good, you still aren't perfect, you have sinned against God. And someone must be punished for your sin. Of course you can pay for it yourself in hell, but why not let Jesus pay for your sin instead? Well actually, He's already done it, but He won't force it on you... all you have to do is believe, and receive. Basically repent. Ask Jesus to forgive you for your sins. But in order to do this, you must really believe that Jesus was crucified for your sins, and that 3 days later He rose from the dead. If you really believe this, and you accept it. Then welcome to the family of God, we'll be able to celebrate with all other believers with God for all of eternity... the one who created everything that is beautiful, everything that tastes good, feels good, and is good. All of the good things we experience are just a taste of what is in store for us who are saved. But on the other side... an eternal night of horror lies ahead for those whom continue to reject Christ. It's really quite simple actually, but where the problem is it forces us to change the way we live. And for some, they just don't want that.

Check this out:
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/goingtoheaven.html

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If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
So even if you don't lie or steal or anything, you still go to Hell, simply for not believing in Jesus? You aren't harming anyone, if anything you've made the world better... Why would God send you to Hell?

Why believe someone died for your sins if you have none... the system is flawwwwed. To be fair, most people will have 'sins', but what about some sort of hermit dude who just lives in isolation, he can't steal/cheat/lie/murder/etc. But he goes to Hell anyway, cause he obviously deserves eternal suffering for his beliefs.

bwoogie

Member

Posts: 380
From: kansas usa
Registered: 03-12-2005
Everyone has sined. we are all born sinners. Don't tell me you know someoone who has never lied. never cheated. never had wrong thoughts about someone... never lusted after a woman (or man).

The only way to the father is through the son. besides, how can you go be with some one so great if you (or whoever you are talking about) don't believe in him?

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~~~boogie woogie woogie~~~

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Whoa, guess I shoulda been more accurate by saying that most people are 'sinners', oh wait, I did.

How can you be born a sinner? You haven't done anything... so how can 'not believing that Jesus died for our sins' be a sin, if you don't have any sins for him to die for??

Anyways, back to my happy hermit example, why would God send him to Hell if he hasn't done anything wrong? SHAFTY DEAL.

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
It's not like we are sinners because we sin. We sin because we are sinners.

A creature isn't a dog because it barks, it barks because it's a dog.

We're all unworthy, and no amount of "good things" will help us. It's like giving someone a plateful of dog poop to eat. No matter how much sugar, vanilla extract, and cake frosting you put on top, it's still going to taste like crap. We're rotten to the core, that's the way we start. It's our nature. Just like a dog is a dog by nature, and a cat is a cat by nature, we are sinful by nature. There's nothing you or I can do to change that.

We must be given new natures in order to be able to be in the presence of a Holy God. He is perfect, and by His nature, we can't be around him if we're as unclean as we are by nature.

So it's not a question of how many good things we've done. We sin because we're sinners, not the other way around.

--clint

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http://www.includingjudas.com/christiangame.html

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Eventually, God will turn over the Earth to the devil for a while, where everything basically goes to Hell. (pardon the pun ) So, what happens to the Hermit? He simply stays there and the devil leaves him alone? Doesn't sound like that would happen.

I realize you are speaking hypothetically. Yes, Hypothetically someone could never sin, but in reality, how likely is that? To never even have an ill thought? I guess I can't fathom that. Oh well.

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The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
Why believe someone died for your sins if you have none... the system is flawwwwed.

IF you have none? Why even argue that point?

quote:
To be fair, most people will have 'sins', but what about some sort of hermit dude who just lives in isolation, he can't steal/cheat/lie/murder/etc. But he goes to Hell anyway, cause he obviously deserves eternal suffering for his beliefs.

quote:
Anyways, back to my happy hermit example, why would God send him to Hell if he hasn't done anything wrong? SHAFTY DEAL.

Everyone has sinned. People are naturally evil, not good. There is only one person who has ever lived a sinless life, and that is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. I've actually heard of miracles occuring where Muslims are having life changing visions of Jesus Christ. I also heard once of a village that was in isolation, and like 80 years ago this villagers grandfather had a vision of someone who would bring to them a book with an incredible message. Well, it turns out that a Christian missionary came upon this village and told them the message of the gospel. And the entire village repented and received Jesus Christ. Today there are actually churches in this village. My point is that God cares for all who are lost, and He will provide a way for everyone to be saved. If by speaking He can create one-billion times one-billion worlds and stars, and by breathing into dust create a man, and if He can hold every atom in the universe together every second of every day, then I'm sure that it won't be too hard for Him to provide a way for everyone on this little planet to have an opportunity to receive Him.

Also just by looking at the beauty and awesomeness of nature, we can see that behind it there is certainly an All Powerful, Intelligent, Loving, Beautiful, Creative Author who designed it all. To think anything else would be suppressing that very knowledge of truth that lies somewhere within every human heart.

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If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited May 17, 2005).]

CPUFreak91

Member

Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
We are born sinners because of Adam and Eve. They sinned, so they became sinners. A cat doesn't give birth to a dog. A sinner doesn't give birth to a sin free baby. A hermit had a mother who was a sinner, therefore the hermit is naturally a sinner. The system to get pardoned for your sins is relatively easy. Not hard like Islam, Buhdism, and other religions.

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Realm Master

Member

Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
quote:
Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
So even if you don't lie or steal or anything, you still go to Hell, simply for not believing in Jesus? You aren't harming anyone, if anything you've made the world better... Why would God send you to Hell?

Why believe someone died for your sins if you have none... the system is flawwwwed. To be fair, most people will have 'sins', but what about some sort of hermit dude who just lives in isolation, he can't steal/cheat/lie/murder/etc. But he goes to Hell anyway, cause he obviously deserves eternal suffering for his beliefs.


err.. i dunno about that, but yes. You must understand, we have all sined, its in our thougths, our actions, even (maby) subconciessly.
Even a little white lie (while used often, even by me ) is a sin, and God does not have a "Sin meter" where people go like "Ooh! that guy murdered! His sin is WAY more bad than the guy who lied to his boss! he sould go to Hell but this guy can staY!"

No, every sin is as bad as the next, thought we don't neccesarily think that.

Also, people get uncountable chances to see the light of God's glory, its their fault they turned aside from the "Right path".

It was their decision (though they might not know it) to TRY and shun God away, but in reality, their just walking a path towards hell.

God loves every one of his creations, but he gave us a CHOICE, its up to us to make that choice.

About the being born sinners thing (its probably answered by now, but what the heck, you can't hear this enough) Adam and Eve sinned. They tainted our relationship with God, therefore, we are born sinners.

Brandon, Max, and everyone esle who replied here are right. Its no

quote:

SHAFTY DEAL

THat hermit, even though he is alone, has sinned, and the punishment of sin is death. If he chose to follow God, then he would have eternal life after death, if not, then he will go to hell.

Even though he is isolated, he couldn't have been taht way ALL his life, and even if he was (Somehow or another) God would be continually reaching out to him, giving him oppertunites to become a Christain (and maby join this site ) so there is no "SHAFTY DEAL" its OURSELFES that let us get sent to Hell.

In case you were wondering: I think if babies die young, they go to hevan, because well, they are so (excuse me) dumb that they can't even think well enought ot know God.


WOW! DID I JUST SAY ALL THAT!

dng, i've been learning!

Yay!


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God rules.

...no duh

CPUFreak91

Member

Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
We've all lied at least once in our lives.
As a toddler my parents (when I drew an ugly pic of them) said: "oh how nice! that looks just like me!)

That is a sin. Now some of you may disagree with me, but it true isn't it, that's an ugly picture I drew of them and they said it was nice when they did tell me later that thye were appaled.

Also your hermit wasn't born a hermit. He had a mom. He probably wasn't a hermit till he was in his 20's. When he was 15, he probably lied to his parents about knocking over the wine glass at diner ("The dog came running in here chasing the cat and ran into the table. That caused the glass to fall onto the floor and break.")

It is impossible to not sin, sinner's sin, dog's bark, fish swim. It's the way things are made.

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[This message has been edited by CPUFreak91 (edited May 17, 2005).]

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Rape mothers + eat children + torture puppies + later truly repent and accept Christ = House made of ice cream in Heaven.

Help seniors across the street + take care of wounded animals + pick up litter + not a Christian = Uh oh, looks like the fire ants are having a picnic on your eyeballs!

Cause an arrangement of neurons in your brain is obviously more important to God than whether or not you made the world a better place to live in.

Yay for forgiveness! lol

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Lmao God is a hardass and heaven is an all exclusive club I guess. I for one am not prepared to bend myself sideways to take it up the tubing so I can have a chance at heaven which in all reality is still not proven to exist. Sure people claim that through faith and belief it exists in some way... usually metaphorical, but I can't see how you chums turn your lives to appease a aparition. I can probably put down money that you are regular half-wits in reality, but put on a mask to appeal to your religious bretheren on this site. You're probably more of a sinner than I... going along the lines of quantity over quality. Seriously, I may portrait myself as an *** but once you get to know me its weekly KD, BBQ and hot wings at my house for lunch!

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
With what you two believe in I can totally understand why you'd want to laugh the message of the Gospel away. You are not interested in understanding it. And changing your lives is far to much of a sacrifice. So instead you just laugh and mock at that which you have no intention of believing in. What the Bible calls sin is too fun to give up. So you try to make the Gospel sound foolish in your mind. Christians are really not as naive as you two think.

As for most of the things that you've said, I won't even respond because we've been there before, and done that.

Now you two. Tell me, just because some choose to do more evil than others. Does that excuse the person who has done less evil? Should Jesus say "Because you aren't as bad as Hitler, I'll let you two in." Or "You may have lied some... but hey, you were trying to get by. I know how that goes man. Come on in." No! If He is Holy, Perfect and the Righteous Judge like He says, then that would go against His nature. We are not measured by what others do, they are sinners too! So it'd be more like "Depart from me you worker of iniquity, I don't know you." If everyone did measure themselves by how much evil the next person did then everyone would end up in hell. The only measuring stick that you should measure yourself against is Jesus Christ. And when you do so, you will see that you fall completely short, and are in need of a Savior.


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If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited May 17, 2005).]

Realm Master

Member

Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
Brandons right... you guys just dont get it...

WE HAVE ALL SINNED! If you make the world abetter place it DOSN't MATTER! YOU'VE STILL SINNED!!!!!!!!!!!

When you ask to be forgiven, God wipes away your sins! your sin free! All of your sins after that can be forgiven, you can have eternal life, when you ask for a sin to be forgiven, God forgets it, the humans you sinned against wont, but GOD will.

I have to go, but I must say this:

Jesus is your savior.

Pick up a bible some time, if your mind and heart are open, youll understand why we "are so crazy"

One day i hope YOU'LL be convincing people of the existence of God.

Untill then...

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God rules.

...no duh

kiwee

Member

Posts: 578
From: oxfordshire, england
Registered: 04-17-2004
yes

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I Am God's Kid!!

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Remember though, these two have read quite a bit of the bible. So I am not going to chide them for that.

Cheese - I totally understand what your saying, and to some extent I agree. It isn't quite fair that someone who is nice and a giver and kind, but never accepts Christ goes to Hell. It's wrong, eh? I used to think that, and every once in a while I doubt about it. Then I realize exactly what the other have said.

Capn - I agree with you, odds are that you are a much better person than me. I sin all the time, but I repent for it. As long as I do, none of my transgressions are held against me.

It makes me wonder, how come God made is so simple, all you have to do is ask for forgiveness and have Jesus in your heart, and not everyone wants to. I just don't understand.

My statements in no way shape or form are meant to be slanderous or anything, and I respect your guys's opinions.

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The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
So... you're accepting my previous message as the truth. If our judicial system punished people that way, murderers and bread-thieves would both get life in prison.

It's as simple as this, in my opinion of course:
If you make the world better, you're a positive person, and if you intentionally ruin it, you're a negative person.

But since we're all "rotten to the core", God doesn't give a **** how much of our short lives we devote to improving those of the less fortunate. It all depends on neurons in your brain announcing that you believe or you don't or you're not sure. And if you don't believe in Him, he'll have you tortured forever.

I don't think it's funny, actually. Anyone with that sort of an attitude shouldn't be in charge.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
but our judicial system isn't God...it's a bunch of people, people like us.
and no, God doesn't operate too much like that. There are causes and effects, each effect relative to it's cause.
however, Heaven is a perfect place, and if it contians something imperfect, it no longer is perfect. It will become just like Earth again. and so, thus... the default to go is...

additionally, the formation and linkage of neurons are dependent on what we do, experience, think, etc. it's not an arbitrary placement, so don't feel so victimized.

and, no, God does care on what we do. But, you cannot wipe away what you have done. It's not a matter of "does your good outway your bad" it's a matter of perfection. besides, a person will be rewared for what they have done. but I ask you this, why does a person do good? just for good's sake? for God? or for personal benefit? because it makes them feel good? so they can think better about themselves? because they have a better social image? One's motives are pretty selfish, after all, it's just neurons firing back and forth that cause it, neurons that act for it's being.

but, if someone is perfect, yes, they can go to heaven. Jesus came for us sinners.

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nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
A couple of points of correction here:
1) Hell is not forever. It only exists until judgment, and for those in Hell this judgment will follow with eternal punishment in a lake of fire.
2) Salvation from the consequence of sin is not based on one thing alone. It is more than mere belief, more than simple action, and beyond basic good intentions.

If you really want to understand all the Bible has to offer you have to be careful of what influences you in the process of studying it. For example, the Bible says all have sinned, but it doesn't say all know they have sinned. You have to remember that two of the fundamental principles of Christianity are responsibility and accountability. I understand your arguments - you aren't the first people on earth to have them.
In my opinion, you are mixing several differing perspectives (popular opinion on such things as good versus bad, right versus wrong, etc) into one viewpoint as an argument against God and/or Christianity, which just does not hold ground. I'm not trying to argue against you, just present you the information you need to help you understand what it is you seem to be trying to understand. I am happy to see you still have some interest in these things.

Realm Master

Member

Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
Wow nfektious/Arch! Your eplination(s) kicked the crud out of mine!

way to go!

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God rules.

...no duh

[This message has been edited by Realm Master (edited May 18, 2005).]

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Woops, Max posted while I was typing up my reply, I must say you've really improved with the debate thing, compared to our old-fashioned back and forth bickering. I guess the reason a lot of people don't believe (me, anyway) is that with no good evidence for it and no good evidence against it, it's simpler to admit that you don't really know. And I don't think anyone does, until you're dead (and in my opinion it's then too late to learn anything!).

The people trying to teach me about the after-life are mortals like me... that's another thing that bothers me about this. I don't care who they tell me wrote their books.

Sweet, on to ArchAngel. If you wanna reply, read what I wrote, and don't try putting words in my mouth. For example, I didn't say that our judicial system is God. That wouldn't even make sense. Also, I don't feel victimized by my neurons, you psycho. And I'd hardly say there's a difference between striving for perfection and making sure your good outweighs your bad. And yeah I totally recycle because of my selfish motive of improving my social image... lol. I mean goodness' sake. Make fun of my lingo if you must, but anyway, PWND!

Wow, my Hell will be replaced by a lake of fire. Damnit, someone replaced my sandwich with this chunk of meat between two pieces of bread! Or is Hell sort of a waiting room, like at the doctor's office, with the old people coughing on you and the little kids shrieking, but just a buildup for the real bad news? Wait, why am I still asking fellow mortals what the after-life is like? They haven't died many more times than I have, hopefully... (zero for any idiots confused by that)

You dunno I dunno.


Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Not much I can say, but there is one quote I know.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Something to ponder on, when looking for insight, maybe someone is leading us to an answer, but we aren't paying attention?

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The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
I guess the reason a lot of people don't believe (me, anyway) is that with no good evidence for it and no good evidence against it, it's simpler to admit that you don't really know. And I don't think anyone does, until you're dead (and in my opinion it's then too late to learn anything!).

I'm more convinced that Jesus is God than I am that the universe and my current thoughts are all just accidents. What type of evidence would it take to convince you? Do you know that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is one of the best attested facts of history? Do you know that Intelligent Design is more logical than Macro Evolution? When you really stack together what is known by mankind. There is only one logical, and undeniable answer. There is an All Powerful creator of the universe. Jesus Christ claimed to be this Creator. Jesus is the only one who can live up to His claims too. Today He continues to change lives and turn this world inside out. This my friend is not some accident or lie. It is the intervention of an All Mighty God giving His Creation the chance to live with Him for ever.

quote:

The people trying to teach me about the after-life are mortals like me... that's another thing that bothers me about this. I don't care who they tell me wrote their books.

Ya know... I'm starting to think that the Resurrection being the best attested fact of history, and all of the awesome miracles taking place in the name of Jesus, and all of the Biblical prophecies being fulfilled, and all of the archeological discoveries being made that back the Bible, and all of that undeniable awesomeness... Well, I think that it won't win the majority of this generation to Jesus Christ. Instead I think the thing that will win others to Him is when hypocrites stop their pretending, and when the power of the living God is shown to the unbelievers through the lives of those who claim to be Christians. I always find it amazing for someone to be in church on Sunday dancing and praising God. But then on Monday they are out at the club drinking, cursing, and dancing it up... or taking lightly what Jesus did for us.

quote:
You dunno I dunno.

I believe. You don't believe.

It's your only hope man. Seek God while He can be found. The evidence that you want points in the favor of Jesus Christ. And those of us who do know just wish you could as well. If you go for any other religion, it can be disproven through it's failure to forgive sin, it's failure to bring us into a relationship with God, or through it's lies, inaccurate history, and failed prophecies. But Christianity stands firm, and for good reason.


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If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited May 19, 2005).]

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
Cheese... I read what you wrote. however... I'm wondering if you read what I wrote...
making fun of your lingo? putting words in your mouth. okay... I should remember, you're a sensitive guy...
well, I'm glad that you don't feel victimized by your neurons.

perfection means to have no bad. pure. flawless. perfect. A car that has a great engine well, but has problems brakes is in no way a perfect car. (speaking of which, I got this perfect car you may wanna look at buying...)
it has nothing to do with good outweighing bad. doing good doesn't erase bad, nor does doing bad erase good.

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Soterion Studios

CPUFreak91

Member

Posts: 2337
From:
Registered: 02-01-2005
@Capn & Cheese: You guys have the most logical arguments. I've talked to other people about this stuff and they wen't completely off topic trying to win the argument.

True story:
My dad was at a hospital visiting a friend who broke his leg and ribs in a bike acident. While he was there two people were dying (very coincidental, but true). The first guy started screaming about "the burning! Oh God I ccan't take it any more. ******* fire!" and died. The other looked really peacfull and never said anything and died soon after the other guy.
Cheesy as it sounds, it's true.

Also, we christain mortals beleive what the bible says about heaven. Muslims beleive what the Koran says about heaven. Buhdists believe Buhda about nirvana....

It's all a matter of belief. You guys (correct me if I'm wrong) don't beleive in a heaven or hell.
But, you also made a decision to reject christ, fine, I believe you will repent of that someday, but this is a free world and God and I won't force you to believe. Your decision is made (for now) and I will stop bugging you about this. I will not try to "convert" you. As a matter of fact I will not post on this topic any more, that would give us christians more of a bad name: bugging people non stop to convert.

Hey you others, they've made their choice. If they want to change, they'll change. We could talk about this later in the future when they're ready for more, but I'm stopping here.

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CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
If Jesus' resurrection was a proven fact, it'd be treated as one, not just by a select few. I haven't seen it in a history book but Christians tell me his Disciples saw him rise up. Must be some evil atheist conspiracy.

I don't think there's much more of an unlikely cause for existence than a fully-formed, all-powerful conscious entity who popped into being, and had nothing better to do than make a bunch of little people on a rock in space. Do you know how existence began? I don't. But I like simple answers, and I think nature just took its course. You might see some unusual things in nature, but there are no accidents.

Arch, if you make assumptions about how I feel and what I think, you're putting words in my mouth. And when I first came here, you made fun of my lingo before copying and using it repeatedly. That doesn't bother me, it's kind of funny.

Good outweighs bad as much as possible = trying to achieve perfection. I don't mean like 'saved two people but killed one, good outweighs bad, thus I'm perfect', cause that's fallllse. Sorry for being unclear.

CPU, if those two guys had the same injuries, that is real weird.

Bible, Koran and all the other stuff, I don't think the authors are all lying when they say God told them to write stuff or whatever, but yeah, I think visions and dreams would be taken a lot more seriously in those days... Not necessarily any truth in any of them, but they can inspire you and spark ideas. One time I was having a regular hectic and apparently random dream, when I suddenly sat down with an angel and spoke simply for awhile. It'll stay with me for awhile but since we are always learning more about our minds, I know that message was from myself.

I like the philosophies but I hate the supernatural spirit junk. If Jesus dedicated his life to 'love they neighbor' and the Golden Rule alone, he'd be one of my heroes. As soon as all that 'have faith in me and you'll live forever' stuff gets thrown in, it's ruined for me. Same with Buddha: Desires lead to suffering, so just live a simple life. Sounds good, but let's not forget that Buddha supposedly turned into a white elephant or something.... sigh. Somebody should take all the good ideas from all the religions and just make a good lil book out of 'em, minus all the gods and mythology.

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
did I really? haha. I don't even remember. sry if I did, tho.

I'm not trying to make assumptions, but understand what you are saying. (although the two are related)
and the God and judicial system comment was to point out that God and government operate on different levels and comparisons of the two fall apart.

but.. I'm listening to the Gorillaz right now, and temporarily unable to debate now.

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Soterion Studios

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:

If Jesus' resurrection was a proven fact, it'd be treated as one, not just by a select few. I haven't seen it in a history book but Christians tell me his Disciples saw him rise up. Must be some evil atheist conspiracy.

You should really research the facts before you assume something like that. The writers of the history books you speak of have no interest in telling students that Jesus rose from the dead. An interesting thing to note is that not even Jesus' enemies could prove the resurrection as false in His day. And as for hallucinations, Jesus showed Himself to over 500 people at one time. It is mathematically impossible for 500 people to have the same hallucination at the same time. Also, if Satan is the ruler of the Cosmos (structured society) as Jesus said, then he (Satan) would do everything that he could to keep the fact of the resurrection hidden.

quote:
I don't think there's much more of an unlikely cause for existence than a fully-formed, all-powerful conscious entity who popped into being, and had nothing better to do than make a bunch of little people on a rock in space. Do you know how existence began? I don't. But I like simple answers, and I think nature just took its course. You might see some unusual things in nature, but there are no accidents.

Nature may take it's course but the course had to be planned by someone, ... the random forces of nature destroy, they do not create patterns. It took extreme intellect and power to create the universe, not some random event.

No I don't know how existence began. Actually I believe that existence has always been, because eternity does exist. And it could never not exist or it would have never been eternity. If you believe what the Bible says, then you'd believe that God has always existed, which means that He never 'popped' into existence. Which would also mean that He is Sovereign even over existence itself. I don't think that there is any other reasonable answer except that this universe and all life in it was created by a Supreme Intellect that owned an unimaginable amount of power. God!

quote:
I like the philosophies but I hate the supernatural spirit junk.

So are you saying that even if you have a soul, that you don't care to know? Don't you want to know the truth? If so, then do you think you're heading in the right direction by just dismissing "the supernatural spirit junk" simply because you hate it?

------------------
If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited May 23, 2005).]

Realm Master

Member

Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
quote:
Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
If Jesus' resurrection was a proven fact, it'd be treated as one, not just by a select few. I haven't seen it in a history book but Christians tell me his Disciples saw him rise up. Must be some evil atheist conspiracy.

I don't understand that last part, (atheist?) but i can tell you this:

Those guys who are Humanits(ts?) talk about da big bang and evolution because they are afraid... they don't want to believe that God Rules and that there is a heaven and hell. Some people don't belive because they want to control their own lives or they don't want coniquenses.

They want what THEY say to be the truth, and they want to be the masters of all around them.

Arg, i whish I could elaborate, but i just don't seem to have the right words for it.


quote:

I don't think there's much more of an unlikely cause for existence than a fully-formed, all-powerful conscious entity who popped into being, and had nothing better to do than make a bunch of little people on a rock in space. Do you know how existence began? I don't. But I like simple answers, and I think nature just took its course. You might see some unusual things in nature, but there are no accidents.

Your right: there are no accidents, but it wasn't nature that made everything, it was god. There is no better existence for God always being than for space always being. See: how did space come to be? No explination? I didn't think so. However hard it is to belive, God has always been, and it wasn't just fun to him to make us life on this "Little rock"... BTW: God didn't "Pop into being" he just always was: hard to belive, but true none the less


quote:


Bible, Koran and all the other stuff, I don't think the authors are all lying when they say God told them to write stuff or whatever, but yeah, I think visions and dreams would be taken a lot more seriously in those days... Not necessarily any truth in any of them, but they can inspire you and spark ideas. One time I was having a regular hectic and apparently random dream, when I suddenly sat down with an angel and spoke simply for awhile. It'll stay with me for awhile but since we are always learning more about our minds, I know that message was from myself.


I like the philosophies but I hate the supernatural spirit junk. If Jesus dedicated his life to 'love they neighbor' and the Golden Rule alone, he'd be one of my heroes. As soon as all that 'have faith in me and you'll live forever' stuff gets thrown in, it's ruined for me. Same with Buddha: Desires lead to suffering, so just live a simple life. Sounds good, but let's not forget that Buddha supposedly turned into a white elephant or something.... sigh. Somebody should take all the good ideas from all the religions and just make a good lil book out of 'em, minus all the gods and mythology.


Sigh... ohboy... sorry, but im no pro at this: but ill try and help make it clear to you:

Response to Paragraph 1:
God made us, so he made us so we can dream: Of course, not all dreams are sent from God, but sometimes when God needs to contact us, he can send us a dream. Many deciples (after Jesus's crucification) received messages in dreams, and many prophets before had dreams to communicate wiht God too.

Ya know, i bet in those dreams when you ran, you didn't slow down and nothing was as weird and warped as they are now (for me anyway 0_o)

Response to paragraph 2:

Why does the part about eternal life throw you off?

To belive and understand, you must know that Jesus wasn't just a simple man, and God isn't just a myth: They are real. Jesus was the son of god, born as a man: he never sinned, and he died for OUR sins. God is, well, God, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, He will provide eternal life if you belive in Jesus.

Atch, sorry CheeseStorm, i probably didn't help, did i?

Arg, i probably just made it worse...

------------------
God rules.

...no duh

[This message has been edited by Realm Master (edited May 23, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by Realm Master (edited May 23, 2005).]

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
UFO's have been seen by thousands of people at a time but it doesn't mean aliens exist. Oh, so the combined power of Satan and the history-book-writers is keeping everything on the down-low. I understand...

So you not only know that the 'random forces of nature' only come together to destroy, but you know that eternity exists. Should I bother asking you to prove these things, or are they just your opinion?

No offence but you don't know if souls exist (and neither do I), let alone if I have one, yes it would be interesting to prove it either way, just as it would be interesting to prove/disprove the existence of leprechauns.

Realm Master:
Why the hell would we be afraid of something we don't believe in? Who doesn't want to control their own life? Who doesn't believe in cause-and-effect, and 'coniquenses' (consequences?)? Doesn't everybody want what they say to be the truth? Shouldn't you take a step back and look at yourself? Do you actually think that the pursuit of knowledge is the same thing as trying to become the masters of everything around us?

Oh-ho-ho-ho. That, right there, that's gotta be the reason I hate religion, summed up into this little three-sentence quote of yours: "See: how did space come to be? No explination? I didn't think so." ARGH, maybe you haven't noticed yet, but we don't know everything, and you can't just blame the unexplained on a god. Do you have a problem with accepting your lack of understanding the universe? Admit that we know little.

How can you honestly say its the truth that God has always been here. It's okay if you say that's what you believe, but do I ever just say "I KNOW GOD DOES NOT EXIST BECAUSE IT'S JUST THE TRUTH!" Try to open your mind. Maybe we're both wrong, and the Hindus were right. We can't prove any of this either way.

In the old days, what your dreams showed you was considered to be real. I hope most of us know better nowadays. I wasn't there when Jesus was crucified, neither were you, but if one of your close friends was killed you'd probably dream about them too. I know I have, but they're just dreams.

Bah I can't respond to the rest. Maybe I came off a little hard but we gotta be careful about the difference between "I KNOW" and "I THINK". Do I know that there was a Big Bang or that evolution is more than just a theory? No, I've never seen the birth of a universe or a successful variant surviving to reproduce. Do you know if there is a God or not?

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
The whole reason we are called believers is because we believe.

I'm going to tell you exactly what you want to hear. I have no tangible proof that God exists, but, I can tell you that I KNOW he exists. It is a feeling inside me that lets me KNOW where I am going. I guess that since neither of us can prove anything, I guess we are both stupid and ignorant, eh? I'll admit to it. (I personally believe in leprechauns)

It's too bad you make some very good points, but it is out belief that we use to label everything "God did it" we are not just mindless robots, it is simply our honest answer.

Ok now, you said that the pursuit of knowledge is the same as wanting to become the masters of everything. I seek greater knowledge, but I don't want to be the master of anything. I am going to college to learn so I can get a career and support a family and my parents in their old age when it comes. My knowledge that I want about God is simply to better understand the God that I KNOW and love.

I guess I will also admit how little we know, I don't know many things. As I said before though, it is not simply a belief, but I (as in me) (only me, I don't care about your belief right now) I KNOW about my God and what he is doing and will do for me.

I recently dreamed that my Gamecube memory cards were drenched in puke, but that wasn't real. I think that when it happens, people know, and who really understands dreams anyhow? In the Bible (Which I know is a conpiracy to you, but bear with me) there was a person who could interperet dreams. I believe it was Joseph (the one with the technicolor dreamcoat) who interpereted the Pharoah's dreams. I believe it happened, I can't prove it, but there is a verse in the Bible that says "Blessed is he who does not see, and yet still believes.)

To take it a bit further, I think my name is Max, it may not be. What if it is Sam? What if everything I think I know is a lie and even my birth certificate is wrong? Suddenly everything I thought I knew is wrong. I guess KNOWING didn't do me any good. It seems that that sort of represents what you are saying.

Feel free to rebut all of this, I look forward to your answer!

P.S. If you have an msn messenger, PM me it so we can talk sometime.

------------------
The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

Realm Master

Member

Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
quote:
Originally posted by CheeseStorm:

So you not only know that the 'random forces of nature' only come together to destroy, but you know that eternity exists. Should I bother asking you to prove these things, or are they just your opinion?


Well... you may think im crazy for say this but: NO i can't prove it, yet i still belive that eternity (with God, of course) exists.

Like Max said, we are Called Believers because we belive.

quote:

Realm Master:
Why the hell would we be afraid of something we don't believe in? Who doesn't want to control their own life? Who doesn't believe in cause-and-effect, and 'coniquenses' (consequences?)? Doesn't everybody want what they say to be the truth? Shouldn't you take a step back and look at yourself? Do you actually think that the pursuit of knowledge is the same thing as trying to become the masters of everything around us?

Oh-ho-ho-ho. That, right there, that's gotta be the reason I hate religion, summed up into this little three-sentence quote of yours: "See: how did space come to be? No explination? I didn't think so." ARGH, maybe you haven't noticed yet, but we don't know everything, and you can't just blame the unexplained on a god. Do you have a problem with accepting your lack of understanding the universe? Admit that we know little.

How can you honestly say its the truth that God has always been here. It's okay if you say that's what you believe, but do I ever just say "I KNOW GOD DOES NOT EXIST BECAUSE IT'S JUST THE TRUTH!" Try to open your mind. Maybe we're both wrong, and the Hindus were right. We can't prove any of this either way.


Thats just it: They are AFRAID BECAUSE they want complete and utter contorl of their own lives and to have no consiquenses for their actions.
If God "Existed" (like they beleive he dosn't) then they couldn't be their own masters: sins would have consiquences. They would have to answer to someone GREATER THAN THEMSELVES (see, people (SOME mind you, not all) who don't belive in god think of themselves as the highest, the best, they don't want someone better than them)

I pursue knowlege for a few resons: 1: School dosn't end for me untill College

2: Programming is fun and enjoyable

3: Knowledge will get me a job, so i can make a living


Yes, we know little. And no, i have no 'problem' understanding anything:
I understand GOd made the universe. We don't 'Blame' creation on God, we just say he made heaven and earth.


Waitwaitwait... What do the Hindus belive?

Anyway: You don't come out and say God does not exitst, but OTHER people do: they just... i dunno, hate us? Prejudice? Racism? Relegion-haters?
Besides:

Jesus Loves Me
This I Know
For the Bible
Tells me so

Highlight the last two lines and you have my answer.

ARrrG! Im not helping am i?

Sorry, but I'm a beliver, and not one too good at explaining this to you...

Ill shutup now.

------------------
God rules.

...no duh

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
I think it's about time for Simon Templar to come and put in an appropriate post. We'll see what develops!

------------------
The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
Cheesestorm, there was a follower of Christ named Thomas - one of the original chosen 12 disciples - who did not believe Christ was resurrected from the grave. From John 20:29:
quote:
Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

It is a normal response to be skeptical and want proof. However, it is unrealistic to not accept some things without any proof at all - that is, with faith. I've never seen anyone demand so much proof for something that seems to be held in little regard. The persistance you display indicates you are more than curious, but perhaps afraid to admit that to yourself or allow yourself to really understand these things.
The thing you should really consider is that no matter how you feel about all of this, it is up to you to accept or reject God. Only you can do that and it matters not what anyone else does or says. You make the decision.

[edit] corrected minor punctuation error.

[This message has been edited by nfektious (edited May 25, 2005).]

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
UFO's have been seen by thousands of people at a time but it doesn't mean aliens exist.

But it does mean that UFO's exist. Just cause they do, doesn't mean that you should automatically tie them up with the subject of aliens that you've seen in movies.

quote:
Oh, so the combined power of Satan and the history-book-writers is keeping everything on the down-low. I understand...

No... I don't think you do.


quote:
So you not only know that the 'random forces of nature' only come together to destroy, but you know that eternity exists. Should I bother asking you to prove these things, or are they just your opinion?

I say that the random forces of nature don't create patterns by what is known through science and observation, I don't personally know this to be 100% fact through experience. But I know that no one knows even half of everything that there is to know. So no, I don't know this for a fact. But I think that on the side of what we know through science that I can boldly state what I have.

quote:
No offence but you don't know if souls exist (and neither do I), let alone if I have one, yes it would be interesting to prove it either way, just as it would be interesting to prove/disprove the existence of leprechauns.

No offence taken. I can't prove to you that man is a spirit in a body. But if you want science or facts then I've got some for you:

I have heard some true stories, one was about a woman who was brought into the hospital in a coma. She died a few hours later, after a few minutes she came back to life. She explained to the doctors that she had been out of her body floating above them, and watching them trying to save her life. She then explained to them that she went up and out of the hospital and onto it's roof. She stood there... then something caught her eye. It was a red shoe on the roof. Then suddenly she fell back into her body, and told them all of these things. A doctor went up to the roof, and there was a red shoe just as the woman had said. How could she know this? Unless she was out of her body. Her spirit!

There was actually a story similar about an atheist who died while on the operating table. He then was out of his body and watching his wife cry. Some voices came from the hallway and said "Hey, Joe... hurry up, we've been waiting on you, we've got to hurry." He said that he thought they were taking him to be operated on. So he went, and then when they shut the door it was pitch blackness. They started to push him around and mock him. Then they started to tear off his flesh. He said that he couldn't tell if there were 10's or 1,000's of them. He said that he heard a voice whisper. It said "pray to God". But he said, "What!? I don't believe in God." But the voice insisted. So he said "Jesus, save Me!" Then he said that he saw a light far away, that got closer and closer. Then it engulfed him, and he was in the presence of Jesus and angels. He was awestruck by the glory and beauty, power and majesty that was before him. Jesus told him that he had to go back to his wife. But he wanted to stay there. He eventually returned, and wrote a book. He's now a Christian.

I also have seen demons and have even been physically attacked on occasion. I won't go to far into that. But yes, they are as real as you are, as real as I am. And I do know this for a fact.

I want you to know that when I say know, that I am not talking about scientifically tested and verified fact. But I am speaking of something even greater than that. A personal and sometimes intimate knowledge that can only be known through experience.

K, so I also know that God is real, He is more real than anything that I have ever experienced before. I once heard Him speak to me in an audible voice. It was the most powerful sound that I have ever heard ever. I know that this happened. God has spoken to me through many different means. I know exactly when it is Him, and most of the time I know exactly what He is saying when He speaks. But the reason that I believe in Jesus Christ most of all, is because He lives in my heart. Yes, I know that He does. I was once lost, totally lost. I was astray doing my own thing without giving God any of my life. But He found me, and now, I know that He lives in my heart.

quote:
In the old days, what your dreams showed you was considered to be real. I hope most of us know better nowadays. I wasn't there when Jesus was crucified, neither were you, but if one of your close friends was killed you'd probably dream about them too. I know I have, but they're just dreams.

Sorry to hear about your friend... when my cousin died, I didn't have any dreams or anything about him.. he was just gone...

We should really give the people of "the old days" a little more credit than we do. They were in many ways smarter than we are today. Just look at the ancient languages for instance. Way more advanced when compared to the English of our day.

Also, Jesus appeared to people in reality, not dreams. I think there was one occurrence of a vision but the rest were physical appearances when the people whom He appeared to were wide awake. I hope you didn't watch that silly 20/20 Resurrection, because those people at the end whom talked about Jesus appearing in dreams and visions either lied or are educated beyond their intelligence. Simply put, what they said was incorrect.

If one of my close friends was killed and I had a dream about him being alive, I wouldn't go telling the world about it and even die a painful death for the dream. But if he appeared to me after being brutally beaten, and killed in the most horrendous way possible. And 3 days later stood before me in perfect health while I was about to eat dinner, and then said. Do you now believe? Touch my scars. I am alive again. Then yes, I would believe it!

------------------
If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited May 25, 2005).]

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Proof, you can't have proof unless God's performs a miracle I suppose. But he has done many miracles even today but you don't believe in them. The thing just simply is that God doesn't want to give us signs according to this verse:

But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: - Mat 12:39

And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation. - Mar 8:12

I have my good reasons to believe in God, Jesus Christ. But why did God allow me to see? I don't know, maybe it's because he knew I would change. And maybe you CheeseStorm are scared because you don't want to change? You must be honest to your self ask your self what you are looking for. I don't know who God allows to see He's truth but not all who know there is God serve Him, like Satan who is rebelling against God. I mean God can deny people from understanding He's word... Only if you see that the God's commands and teaching in the Bible are good you'd belive that the Bible does in fact contain God's word. Read the Bible CheeseStorm and be honest to accept the truth and you will find it.

God bless you.

------------------
Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; unless the LORD keeps the city, the watchman stays awake in vain. - Psalms 127:1


And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. - Isa 32:17

[This message has been edited by Jari (edited May 25, 2005).]

Realm Master

Member

Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
Your guy's explinations totaly whupped mine.

I think ill just stop posting

------------------
God rules.

...no duh

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Mkay a little dated, but I don't have the time to read everything I've missed.

1st off: CPUFreak thanks for the compliment, its nice to know you care.
About that story you mentioned it sounds cool, but I really don't see that as the work through an almighty spirit. I just see it as the type of wound. If God worked that way I'd have cut my finger off when I was | | far away from a spinning radial arm saw. (Little bit of a mistake that I don't need to recap for everyone here) Instead I lost half a nail, a bit of blood (nice splatter I must say) and had no pain whatso ever. Why was it that I got off easy? Did He turn a blind eye for a second there because that was damn close. The topic of this debate began with the idea that not believing in Him was the ultimate sin. Well I've committed the ultimate sin, as well as many minor ones which I've never repented for, and I lead a much better life than those I see who devote themselves to the Christian cause.

2nd: I see that well, all of you believe in the faith because of hope. There's no physical proof of heaven and you accept that. The one thing that I can never get to pass me is that how many people fall to religion out of fear. Personally I view religion as society's back door. They don't want to face the idea that death is the end. How many people believe, worship, or devote themselves to a religion out of the idea, "if my faith is strong my spirit will live on?" How many of you do this? I lead a life with no fear, acceptance of death whenever it comes. I understand that it'd make a harder time to cope with the death of friends and relatives but I accept that as well.

3rd: A miracle is only as good as the people who witness them. Basically an example is that: God has performed a miracle for me, but since I do not look for them I won't recognise one when one happens. If I'm not looking for the miracle will I see it when it comes? I'm guessing no. Something unordinary happens before me and I'll probably just pass it off as "Funky".

So... do you people memorize bible quotes or is there like a www.bible-babble.com or something?

Sure this post consisted of peices of other conversations but that's just because I refuse to read the essay responces. I don't care who can state the least opinion in the most words.

<EDIT> **** **** ! I read some stuff. Max, eachtime I read your responces I feel stupider. I don't say this to be mean but I say this to be truthful. When you said that you THINK your name is Max but it could be Sam I actually physically felt the need to track you down and hit you with a blunt object. Your name is something given to you by your parents as an identification. People can read metaphorical meanings into names and how they were chosen but when you whittle it down it was a decision by your parents. Now unless they've been lieing to you and your licence, birth certificate, etc. are all fake your name is still Max. You "KNOW" there is a God because you can feel him inside you eh? Isn't that like... odd at times? Hell people staring at me from a distance is creepy mind when they lurk over your shoulder staring at the monitor. As Cheese said THINK and KNOW are different, we must distinguish them here. I can just as easily say that the cuccumber in the kitchen 20ft away is God... nono I KNOW it's God because uhh... hmm... the green in it is superior to the green of other vegetables of similar stature.


------------------
Jesus is f'ing metal!

[This message has been edited by CapnStank (edited May 26, 2005).]

nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
Hey Capn!
quote:
The topic of this debate began with the idea that not believing in Him was the ultimate sin. Well I've committed the ultimate sin, as well as many minor ones which I've never repented for, and I lead a much better life than those I see who devote themselves to the Christian cause.

I understand your perspective, having been on that edge myself. Can you imagine someone at your funeral giving your eulogy and talking about some one else and what they did in their life, rather than your life? That would be senseless, wouldn't it?
If you live a better life than those you see who claim to be Christian, and you know that they are doing things wrong, why don't you be the better person and accept God and the teachings of Jesus Christ and show those fake Christians how to be real? It seems to me that in order to be honest to yourself, and be a decent moral person, you owe it to them to point out their flaws and be the example they need to fix their mistakes or at least help them do things right, right? What have you got to lose.

I have to respond to your other two comments also:
Re: Hope - Once again you have confused faith and hope. The two are related, but not the same thing. No fear here either. I'm not sure how you know why I believe in God, but if that is your conclusion you are dead wrong.
Re: Miracles - A miracle is an event which is unexplainable by the laws of nature, resulting in awe and excitement. (Definition derived from The American Heritageģ Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition) If you believe everything can be explained by natural reason (science, etc), then I guess you never will know a miracle when one happens.

One more thing:

quote:
I don't care who can state the least opinion in the most words.
I guess you've still got this record. Why do you bother with this then?

[This message has been edited by nfektious (edited May 26, 2005).]

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Max: The monkey wrench in the system is that people from many religions have that same warm fuzzy feeling ensuring them that they are right. Oh and I don't think the pursuit of knowledge is the same thing as wanting to control your surroundings, I was just asking Realm Master if he thought it was true. To add to CapnStank, names do not exist without people to use them... we use them to describe but we don't need them to experience, aka names have no meaning. We could use a picture of a squirrel instead of '4' and the math would still work.

Realm Master: Dude we are not afraid of things we don't believe in. And if anything I'm a fan of consequences, and I think prisoners (here in Canada, at least) should get harsher punishments. I dunno what the Hindus believe specifically, but they have many many gods and just as much faith, coughcough not that it means anything.

Brandon: Heh yeah I was being sarcastic with the 'I understand'. Like Homer with the hippie guy.
"Dude... karma" *points at tip jar*
"Huh?"
"Karma..."
"...I understand..." *walks away*
If the forces of nature were random and didn't create patterns wouldn't we have snowstorms in the middle of August and stuff? Sweet man you got demons, I thought I saw an alien when I was little and I woke up the next morning with a nosebleed if that means anything lol, but I don't believe in aliens here on Earth (if you could travel at super-luminal speeds you'd have better things to do than stand in people's houses staring at them). AWWW yeah, I saw that 20/20 thing, I thought all they said against it was that his followers were pretty sad and probably dreamt about him. Most of the people they interviewed supported the Resurrection. Oh and the worst way to die is actually jumping off a diving board into a waterless swimming pool filled with fishing hooks, yowzaaaas, imo.

Jari: K lol... why is everyone saying I'm scared? I'm as comfortable with my beliefs as you are with yours. And yes I got like four books into the Bible before it beat me down with boredom, yes good rules, bad magic spirit junk. Booga wooga, bring me a goat, and do some crazy stuff with its blood, raaagh... Or when they kill that dude for picking up sticks on a Sunday! lmfao, brutal times they were. Otherwise yes the rules were good, like no lying/stealing/killing and whatnot.

Hmm different cultures started different religions... but there are many similarities, like giving hope to the good, letting the bad rethink their lives and make up for it, reduce fear of death... But if my politicians told me there was an after-life I'd just say lawlawl. So maybe sacred texts save the day, because they were dictated by the powers that be, more impact when you read them.

Oh and Stank that cucumber can't be God because green vegetables suck. Of course, my green could be your blue, omg the names are meaningless aaaagh. Psst I can probably be dropped off either early afternoon or later (towards or leaving the city). HEY-LOW! Actually I take it back cucumbers are the best green veggie. However I follow the Church of the Corn on the Cob. Thou shall use butter, for thy margarine is hateful in the sight of God.

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
If the forces of nature were random and didn't create patterns wouldn't we have snowstorms in the middle of August and stuff?

I said that the random forces of nature do not create, I never said that all forces of nature were random. On the contrary, I believe that God is Sovereign over everything. So nothing in nature happens without His permission.

quote:

Sweet man you got demons, I thought I saw an alien when I was little and I woke up the next morning with a nosebleed if that means anything lol, but I don't believe in aliens here on Earth (if you could travel at super-luminal speeds you'd have better things to do than stand in people's houses staring at them).

I don't have demons, but I do know that they exist. And it is FAAAR from sweet. Nothing at all sweet about them. Yeah, I don't believe in aliens visiting earth either. Or even existing for that matter. Other than the celestial beings such as angels and demons. They weren't created on the earth. So I guess you could classify them as aliens.

quote:

AWWW yeah, I saw that 20/20 thing, I thought all they said against it was that his followers were pretty sad and probably dreamt about him. Most of the people they interviewed supported the Resurrection.

Most of those at first supported it, but towards the end, many others said that He only appeared to the disciples in visions and dreams. And yeah, they said that they were so sad that they started to actually think that He was alive because of dreams they had. That Paul's letters were the oldest that we have, and that after Paul wrote some of his letters that the other disciples started to go along with him. To this I say, Rubbish! They didn't even say anything about how His body wasn't in the tomb, because except for Jesus being alive, they have no reasonable way of explaining it. History has taught us a GREAT lesson, in a conspiracy, the lie eventually will be revealed. In other words, someone will spill the beans! Especially under such penalty as death, and excruciating death at that! But none of the disciples even came close to giving up in their mission of spreading the Gospel. They had a great cause to live and die for. And all of them except for John were martyred, and they died praising God,... to the fury of their murderers. If I was part of a conspiracy, or if I was even unsure that it was not true. There's no way I'd be beheaded, burned, crucified, flogged, imprisoned, or skinned alive for it. No way! The only way I'd do that is if I experienced Christ alive, and I knew beyond all doubt that this occurred.

I did like how the 20/20 Resurrection ended though... many people from different cultures throughout the world all recognizing their need for a Savior, and giving Him the praise that He so deserves.

quote:
Oh and the worst way to die is actually jumping off a diving board into a waterless swimming pool filled with fishing hooks, yowzaaaas, imo.

Ouch, that sounds painful. But I think that Jesus died in an even more horrible way. It was remarkable that He was even still alive to be crucified after taking 39 strikes from the Roman flagrum . I believe 40 was the max allowed by law. I've heard that after being whipped with it that the person is not recognizable, sometimes organs and veins would even hang outside of the body. If you saw The Passion of the Christ, then that doesn't even come close to what Jesus really went through. I don't think the fishing hooks could compare to that slow repeating type of punishment. Then carrying your own wooden cross (that probably gives you splinters in what flesh you have left on your back) up a hill with the hot eastern sun beating down on your back along with more whips from the Roman soldiers, people spitting on you, throwing rocks, and cursing at you. Then having the long wooden stakes nailed into your hands and feet, then being hung up in the hot sun, naked on the cross as others mock you and hurl insults at you. It was extremely painful, both physically and emotionally. sheeeshh... to think that He did that for me brings me down to my knees... no room for pride. And another thing,... His love is so very great, that if it was only you that had ever sinned, then He would have come and done it all... just for you...


------------------
If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited May 27, 2005).]

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
quote:
If the forces of nature were random and didn't create patterns wouldn't we have snowstorms in the middle of August and stuff?

Oh, but we do . Just not in placed near the equator. And that has little to do with "order" and more to do with the Sun hitting the equator more directly.

And FYI, you should look up thermodynamics & enthropy sometime . . .

------------------
6 "This is what the LORD says --
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to comeó
yes, let him foretell what will come.

8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." -- Isaiah 44:6-8, NIV

Realm Master

Member

Posts: 1971
From: USA
Registered: 05-15-2005
quote:
Originally posted by brandon:
Ouch, that sounds painful. But I think that Jesus died in an even more horrible way. It was remarkable that He was even still alive to be crucified after taking 39 strikes from the Roman flagrum . I believe 40 was the max allowed by law. I've heard that after being whipped with it that the person is not recognizable, sometimes organs and veins would even hang outside of the body. If you saw The Passion of the Christ, then that doesn't even come close to what Jesus really went through. I don't think the fishing hooks could compare to that slow repeating type of punishment. Then carrying your own wooden cross (that probably gives you splinters in what flesh you have left on your back) up a hill with the hot eastern sun beating down on your back along with more whips from the Roman soldiers, people spitting on you, throwing rocks, and cursing at you. Then having the long wooden stakes nailed into your hands and feet, then being hung up in the hot sun, naked on the cross as others mock you and hurl insults at you. It was extremely painful, both physically and emotionally. sheeeshh... to think that He did that for me brings me down to my knees... no room for pride. And another thing,... His love is so very great, that if it was only you that had ever sinned, then He would have come and done it all... just for you...


yeah... and the worst part his he took THE WHOLE WORLD'S sin upon him at that moment... and Jeusus had never sinned.

That is probably what hurt the most.

Brandon: 40 lashes with a roman whatcha-macallit wasn't the max by law: it was the max because 40 lashes killed a person.
!!

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God rules.

...no duh

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
I was using names to prove a knowing point, but I guess any point made can be countered by ignorance, misunderstanding, and snide comments.

Let me ask you something, why are you living right now? If there is nothing after death, why live at all, right? You will have nothing after you die, so I wouldn't worry about it. If you are so fixed on the fact that nothing await us after we pass on, then it is not our loss.

Ya know, God could take the form of a green vegetable if he wanted, or he could use it to change your life.

By the way, the snide comments and stuff have gotten old. Don't counter things with sarcastic remarks because they prove nothing but farfetched unrealistic circumstances.

------------------
The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
I dunno man... is anything actually random?

Oh demons be sweet. If I had to be some kinda 'celestial being' that's what I'd go with, no boundary style, but not like a mindless imp, more like some kind of ninja, assassinating angels or something. Cause angels would be like samurai with this code of honor and stuff, demons are like cheapass ninjas but with uber skills, actually maybe angel would be more fun, cause claws are lame in comparison to just sending a big blade spiralling through your enemies SPLAT SPLAT yeah so maybe angels I dunno. Yeah this all relates back to Jedi/Sith, Ninja/Samurai, I can never decide between things that cool.

The 20/20 ppl were probably side-stepping around the possibility of his supporters sneaking his body away, cause that'd be too offensive to some.

Oh horror story time eh. Well it doesn't get much worse than fish hooks stuck in your eye and slowly tearing it out from its socket as you claw your way up towards the surface, thousands of barbs beckoning you downwards, tearing, slicing, aieeeee.

Thermodynamics and entropy eh... I keep reading about them and then forgetting. I'm reading about the history behind quantum mechanics right now but I should probably understand those things first...

Ah Max beatiful question. It's true I don't believe life has a meaning, I think we invent meanings just as we invent names. I'm also not a big fan of emotions, but the main thing that motivates me is curiosity (which is arguably an emotion in itself, I'll admit)! There are so many unknown things that I love thinking about. And of course, I'd never blow off my head just because I was bored. The future holds, imo, many amazing things and I feel privileged to be apart of this generation, despite my hatred for many of the idiots who seem to represent it.

Veggie Taaaales, Veggie Taaaaales, etc... VEGGIE TALES!

Whoa man I didn't know sarcastic comments could prove farfetched unrealistic circumstances... those sound quite hard to prove! Heh sorry.

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
I dunno man... is anything actually random?

kvantum physics. Or is that spelled some other way? They are random, at least seem to be. Einstein tried to prove other wise but he died trying...

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Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; unless the LORD keeps the city, the watchman stays awake in vain. - Psalms 127:1


And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. - Isa 32:17

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
CheeseStorm, have you ever thought about nature and how everything is the way they are? If you'd look at painting you could say that it's been painted by some one intelligent. So what about all the life forms here on earth? It seems ridiculous to me that everything would be random.

------------------
Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it; unless the LORD keeps the city, the watchman stays awake in vain. - Psalms 127:1


And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. - Isa 32:17

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Ridiculous or not, some people only believe in cold hard facts.

May God have mercy on their souls (even though he won't!)

------------------
The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:

I dunno man... is anything actually random?

The definition is; Having no specific pattern, purpose, or objective. But my point is, according to this definition, isn't life impossible without a Creator? Something that can cause patterns has to be created by Someone who gave it that purpose. A purpose and an objective can only be possessed by an Intelligent Being. It can't be possessed by a process that just causes life to evolve without purpose or objective over billions of years.

quote:

Oh demons be sweet. If I had to be some kinda 'celestial being' that's what I'd go with, no boundary style, but not like a mindless imp, more like some kind of ninja, assassinating angels or something. Cause angels would be like samurai with this code of honor and stuff, demons are like cheapass ninjas but with uber skills, actually maybe angel would be more fun, cause claws are lame in comparison to just sending a big blade spiralling through your enemies SPLAT SPLAT yeah so maybe angels I dunno. Yeah this all relates back to Jedi/Sith, Ninja/Samurai, I can never decide between things that cool.

Demons have nothing to offer when compared to the glory of the holy angels. The demons rebelled against their Creator and were stripped of their glory, and cast from God's presence. Their fate is inevitable. When Jesus walked amongst us, they knew exactly who He was and were terrified of Him. Matthew 8:29 "What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before our appointed time?" Today most of the time when exorcised they complain and wine that we use Jesus' name etc... one even said once to my pastor "I don't like you... cause you aren't afraid of me." Actually I've heard of an occurrence when one said "Why not let us stay here? We are near the end anyway!" Once there was a newspaper report about a demon exorcised, and when it came out it said "My job is easy, cause on one believes in me anymore..." It's why the famed "No One Believes In Me Anymore" song by Keith and Melody Green was written. But still demons are extremely powerful when compared to a human who doesn't belong to Jesus.

Yeah, angels are way more powerful, and are holy, pure etc... but also, if you believe what the Bible says, then when Jesus returns you'll even be greater than the angels are!

quote:

The 20/20 ppl were probably side-stepping around the possibility of his supporters sneaking his body away, cause that'd be too offensive to some.

Not that it'd be offensive, but they didn't say it cause they know how ridiculous that possibility is. It'd be kind of hard for the disciples to break in to a tomb that was sealed by the Roman Empire and guarded by it's highly trained soldiers. It'd be kind of like some uneducated, untrained, unequipped Saddam fanatics trying to break in to where he is now and break him out.


------------------
If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited May 28, 2005).]

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
It's 'quantum'. Hard to call them random when we don't understand them. And of course I don't believe in anything being random. I've never seen it, as far as I know. Oh but maybe I should believe in it, cause believing is seeing...

I believe in facts... I'm undecided on things that we aren't done working on... and I don't believe in codswallop! Older civilizations had their own texts written by their God(s) and now we just call it mythology.

Purpose and objective? Well if you think mosquitoes were designed for the sole mission of pissing us off instead of developing from primitive insects and thriving on a readily available food supply, WOKAY.

Yeah that sucked back in the old days when priests found people who had demons in them... until that 'explanation' was actually replaced by mental disabilities.

So you're saying Jesus just strolled past the guards or what.

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
quote:
It's 'quantum'. Hard to call them random when we don't understand them.

Try "Brownian motion" - might be a bit easier to understand . . .

quote:
And of course I don't believe in anything being random.

Unfortunately, you may be disagreeing with science here.

Quantum phyisics postulates that it may be impossible to tell the future of certain systems based on their present state, even when given all the neccessary information.

Of course, there could simply be hidden variables we are not seeing, but scientists have yet to find them and many wonder if they even exist.

Unfortunately, we won't know the true answer to the question until they complete all their unification theories.

quote:
I've never seen it, as far as I know.

I guess I shouldn't believe in China's existence. It's never seen it, as far as I know.

quote:
Purpose and objective? Well if you think mosquitoes were designed for the sole mission of pissing us off instead of developing from primitive insects and thriving on a readily available food supply, WOKAY.

Umm, they supply food for bats, birds, and dragonflies. C'mon, that was an easy one.

quote:
So you're saying Jesus just strolled past the guards or what.

Read the Bible verses that refer to the account . . .

------------------
6 "This is what the LORD says --
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to comeó
yes, let him foretell what will come.

8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." -- Isaiah 44:6-8, NIV

[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited May 28, 2005).]

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Yeah that's the thing about quantum stuff, since we are still working on it, there may be some pattern yet to be discovered. People have seen China, but what about real unexplainable randomness?

Don't mosquitoes indirectly kill millions of people by injecting them with malaria and crap like that?

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
How did we get onto the whole random topic anyways?

quote:
People have seen China

People have seen angels also .

quote:
Don't mosquitoes indirectly kill millions of people by injecting them with malaria and crap like that?

I dunno the exact number who die from it, but yes, they do spread malaria.

But you were trying to make the point that they "were designed for the sole mission of pissing us off."

------------------
6 "This is what the LORD says --
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to comeó
yes, let him foretell what will come.

8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." -- Isaiah 44:6-8, NIV

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
ok ok and the side-objective of killing millions
Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Mosquitos don't "inject" us with Malaria, it is a side effect of the blood "transfusion."

On a side note, did you guys know that only female mosquitos suck blood? Hmmm, maybe some relation back to child birth and performming the first sin...

------------------
The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
I'm not sure how many have died because of mosquitoes. But I think humans are responsible for killing humans more than mosquitoes are. The reason most of the time is some evil motive.

I have a question. CheeseStorm, you wanted to know if someone would go to hell if they lived a good life and made the world a better place to live in, but didn't believe in Christ. I think that was answered quite well. So here is the question for you What group of people actually make this world a better place to live in. Christians or Atheists?

------------------
If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Actually Max they do inject us with malaria. Tis in their spit! Woo. And in the last 150 years it's killed more people than gun battles blam blam. "Malaria is a disease that that kills one child in sub-Saharan Africa every 30 seconds."

Good question Brandon, who makes the world better? I'd say it depends MUCH more on personality... regardless of religious affiliations, anyone can kill or live a peaceful life. But in regards to your question (whether or not you expected this answer from me), I'd say (on average, not in every case!) a life-long Christian is probably better than a life-long atheist.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited May 31, 2005).]

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
Those are some pretty nasty stats. A child every 30 seconds... that is so sad... I hear that like in the whole world, 2 people die every second on average. Wow since I wrote that, like 10 people might have died...

I agree with your answer... It does depend on personality. But also, I'd think that a persons personality has something to do with what the person believes in. I know that my personality is like way different than it was before I gave Christ my life. After all, personality isn't like a fingerprint or anything. Depending on what a person goes through in life, what type of influences a person has in life, what type of new knowledge is gained, and how they handle lifes changes, their personality can indeed change.

------------------
If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
When discussing that question I'd also take into account nominal "Christianity", since by their actions it's obvious their supposed beliefs have no importance in their lives and the highest authority they look to is themselves.
GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Let's do a little history lesson, shall we?

IMAGINE A NANOTECHNOLOGY MACHINE far beyond the state of the art: a microminiaturized rotary motor and propeller system that drives a tiny vessel through liquid. The engine and drive mechanism are composed of 40 parts, including a rotor, stator, driveshaft, bushings, universal joint, and flexible propeller. The engine is powered by a flow of ions, can rotate at up to 100,000 rpm (ten times faster than a NASCAR racing engine), and can reverse direction in a quarter of a rotation. The system comes with an automatic feedback control mechanism. The engine itself is about 1/100,000th of an inch wideofar smaller than can be seen by the human eye.

Most of us would be pleasantly surprised to learn that some genius had designed such an engineering triumph. What might come as a greater surprise is that there is a dominant faction in the scientific community that is prepared to defend, at all costs, the assertion that this marvelous device could not possibly have been designed, must have been produced blindly by unintelligent material forces, and only gives the appearance of being designed.

As you may have guessed, these astonishingly complex, tiny, and efficient engines exist. Millions of them exist inside you, in fact. They are true rotary motors that drive the ibacterial flagellum,i a whip-like propulsion device for certain bacteria, including the famous E. coli that lives in your digestive system.

Oddly enough, this intricate high-speed motor is at the center of a controversy that has been kindling in scientific circles for a decade, and is now igniting hot debate outside those circles. That is because, even more oddly, the implications of whether this little engine was designed are incalculably profound. They involve questions such as: What constitutes science? Did living things ijust happen by natural causes or were they designed by an intelligence? And what follows from those two competing alternativesoin morality, education, culture, and science itself?

THE CONTROVERSY STEMS from the work of a growing cadre of scientists, mathematicians, and scholars in the field of intelligent design,i or ID for short. In the life sciences, the proponents of intelligent design are challenging the reigning orthodoxy that life developed entirely by the blind operation of natural forces. Their arguments are essentially of two kinds.

First, building on recent discoveries in cell biology, molecular genetics, and other disciplines, they contend that life, and the complex processes by which cells do their work, cannot have been produced by that combination of chance and necessity known as Darwinian evolution. Second, using the analytical techniques of information theory, they contend that the kind of information embodied in things that are designed can only be produced by an intelligent agent, not by undirected material causes. Design, they say, is empirically detectable, and it is detectable, in fact, in living things. (Some of the ID proponents have demonstrated that the physical laws of the universe also show overwhelming evidence of being designed. For reasons of space rather than interest, I can only discuss here the work that ID is doing in the biological sciences.)

Of course, if the hypothesis that the universe and life are designed is true, the ready inference is that this designer has to be an incomprehensibly potent and awesome Intelligent Agent. A lot of influential people in science, the media, the schools, and other institutions donít much like the notion of the Big Intelligent Agent. Hence the controversy over ID, and the slanted treatment of it that is often seen.

Among certain sectors of the media, for example, itis an article of faith that those who believe in God, or advocate principles supporting that belief, are just a mob of Bible-thumping, knuckle-dragging, Scripture-spouting, hellfire and brimstone-preaching, rightwing, gun-toting, bigoted, homophobic, moralistic, paternalistic, polyester-wearing, mascara-smeared, false-eyelashed, SUV-driving, Wal-Mart shopping, big hair, big gut, fat butt, holy-rolling, snake-handling, Limbaugh-listening, Bambi-shooting, trailer-park-dwelling, uneducated, ignorant, backwater, hayseed, hick, inbred, pinhead rubesomostly from the South, or places no better than the Southowho voted for Bush.

So, many of the news stories refer to intelligent design theory as icreationism and ignore the science behind it.They imply that ID is just religion in disguise: iCreationism in a cheap tuxedo, as one headline put it. Letís look at the science, then, because the truth about the intelligent design school could not be more different from those stereotypes. The proponents of ID base their arguments on biological and physical data generally accepted in science. They use the same kinds of analytical methods and mathematical tools as other scientists. The ID theorists do not reason from religious premises. Neither do they attempt to prove the truth of Scripture, or of any particular religious views. As a rule, they do not contest that life on Earth is billions of years old, or that evolution has occurred in the sense of ichange over timei in biological forms.

What they do contest is that undirected material causes alone can explain life is origin and development. Instead, they argue that design is the best scientific explanation for the stunning complexity of the cellular processes that underlie life, and for the evidence of how life actually developed. That conclusion, if true, certainly has religious implications. But, as will become evident, the reasoning and methods used by the ID proponents are fact-based and scientific.

BEFORE GETTING TO THE SCIENCE, though, letis take a moment to see who the ID proponents are. Many of the prominent ID theorists are affiliated with the Center for Science and Culture (CSC) at the Seattle-based Discovery Institute (most of them hold day jobs, too). Some background on the individuals whose work is mentioned in this article may be helpful in deciding if the ID movement is really just a confederacy of dunces allied against the enlightened.

The most prolific of the ID proponents is William Dembski. A bespectacled, youthful-looking man, Dembski has a Ph.D. in mathematics from the University of Chicago, a Ph.D. in philosophy from the University of Illinois, and a Master of Divinity from Princeton Theological Seminary. He has done postdoctoral work in mathematics at MIT, in physics at the University of Chicago, and in computer science at Princeton, as well as being a National Science Foundation doctoral and postdoctoral fellow. He is the leading thinker in applying information theory in the field of intelligent design, and has written or edited ten books.

Michael Behe, who popularized the flagellar motor as an example of intelligent design, is a professor of biochemistry at Lehigh University in Pennsylvania, with more than 35 articles in refereed scientific journals (and many popular works) to his credit. Stephen Meyer, director of the Discovery Instituteis CSC, has undergraduate degrees in physics and geology, and a Ph.D. in the history and philosophy of science from Cambridge University in England for his dissertation on the history of origin of life biology.

Jonathan Wells holds a Ph.D. in molecular and cell biology from the University of California at Berkeley, and another Ph.D. in religious studies from Yale University. He got double 800s on his SATs. Phillip Johnson, whose advocacy will be mentioned in a moment, is professor of law at the University of California-Berkeley. He graduated first in his law school class at the University of Chicago Law School, clerked for Chief Justice Earl Warren on the United States Supreme Court, and published scores of articles and several books during his career.

Highly educated journalists may be forgiven for looking down their noses at hopeless dummies like these. To the rest of us, their credentials may suggest that they could be fairly intelligent men, whose arguments may be worth considering. In fact, they and others like them have put the Darwinist establishment on the defensive in the battle of ideas.

THERE IS GOOD REASON FOR THAT, when you think about it. Throughout most of the history of Western civilization, the fact that life was designed by God was beyond any serious dispute. Genesis told the story of how God created the heavens, earth, and life. The complexity, beauty, and order we see in life and the cosmos was confirming evidence of his hand at work, and a reflection of his glory. There was no other plausible, competing explanation of how life could be so perfectly designed to fit the environment, and how the environment could be so perfect for life. But in the mid-19th century, Darwin changed all that.

Darwin posited that a purely materialist account, dispensing with God, could explain the origin of species. His central mechanism was natural selection acting on random variation. When variations in living things naturally occurred by chance, those variations that were harmful to the organismis survival would be ruthlessly weeded out. Variations that were conducive to survival or reproduction, however, would gradually come to prevail. The organisms that possessed them would, over time, outcompete those with less adaptive characteristics. This purely naturalistic mechanismowholly devoid of any foresight, design, or purposeocould, in Darwinis view, explain the development of life and why different species were apparently so well designed for their environment.

Darwin thus provided a creation storyifor a naturalistic or materialistic view of the world. Richard DawkinsoOxford zoologist, militant atheist, and leading exponent of materialistic Darwinism has declared that ialthough atheism might have been logically tenable before Darwin,

Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.i But if atheistic materialism is true, life on Earth by definition cannot have been designed by an intelligence (except perhaps by space aliens, whose own design would remain unexplained). Dawkins therefore asserts that biology is the study of complicated things that give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose. He refers to living beings as idesignoid objects. iDesignoid objects look designed,i Dawkins contends, iso much so that some peopleoprobably, alas, most people, think they are designed. These people are wrong.i

Dawkinsi view that we, and all life forms, are only apparently designed has been the emphatically enforced orthodoxy among biologists since not long after Darwin. But, as it turns out, increasing knowledge over the past few decades about the immensely complicated processes and structures within the cell, the operation of DNA, the fossil record of the development of species, and other pertinent evidence has not confirmed Darwinism, but radically undermined it.

Enter the intelligent design theorists. Severe difficulties with the Darwinian theory were becoming increasingly obvious by the 1980s, and some scientists began to state openly that design should be considered as an alternative theory.Then in 1991 Phillip Johnson (the Berkeley law professor mentioned above) published a powerful critique of Darwinism entitled Darwin on Trial. In that volume Johnson marshaled the extensive scientific evidence against Darwinism. More importantly, he showed that Darwinism has essentially become a faith in naturalism that is immune to refutation by any set of facts. Arguments or conclusions that are not Darwinian are automatically ruled out of bounds by the scientific establishment. Within the Darwinian fold, wild conjectures, surmises unsupported by facts, and arguments lacking in explanatory power are accepted as legitimate, so long as they permit a inaturalistici explanation.

Johnson also had the temerity to point out that many of the iclassici examples of Darwinian evolution, including those often presented in textbooks, were either distorted or outright fakes. ID proponent Jonathan Wells later took up this theme in his book Icons of Evolution. (See also the article by Wells, iSurvival of the Fakest,i TAS, December 2000/January 2001.) Often the Darwinists knew of these falsifications, but managed to forgive themselves for the good of their mutual cause. Johnson and Wells didnít cut them any slack.

THE DARWINISTS were outraged by Johnson, but there was worse to come. In 1996, Michael Behe (the Lehigh biochemistry professor) published a blockbuster called Darwinís Black Box. In that book, he explored the mind-boggling complexity of biochemical activities within the body and the cell. Some complex structures or processes, known as cumulatively complex, may continue to function if some part is taken away. An army, for example, is highly complex, but it can lose soldiers, vehicles, or even whole units, and still be able to perform its function of fighting, although progressively less well. But Behe demonstrated that the molecular machines existing inside cells, and other biological processes, are sometimes irreducibly complex. An irreducibly complex machine or process is one that has multiple parts, and will not function if any one of the fundamental parts is taken way. All of the parts must be there, all at once, for any function to occur.

Beheis most famous example is the bacterial flagellum described above. If you take away the driveshaft from the flagellar motor, you do not end up with a motor that functions less well. You have a motor that does not function at all. All of the essential parts must be there, all at once, for the motor to perform its function of propelling the bacterium through liquid.

Why is that important? Because that is precisely what Darwinian evolution cannot accomplish. Darwinian evolution is by definition iblind.i It cannot plan ahead and create parts that might be useful to assemble a biological machine in the future. For the machine to be assembled, all or nearly all the parts must already be there and be performing a function. Why must they already be performing a function? Because if a part does not confer a real, present advantage for the organismis survival or reproduction, Darwinian natural selection will not preserve the gene responsible for that part. In fact, according to Darwinian theory, that gene will actually be selected against. An organism that expends resources on building a part that is useless handicaps itself compared to other organisms that are not wasting resources, and will tend to get out-competed.

Darwin himself said that iif it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down.i But an irreducibly complex system cannot evolve in that way, according to Behe. By definition, if an irreducibly complex system were missing just one of its essential parts, it would not function.How or why, then, would blind, purposeless evolution have created the other parts that had no prior function, just waiting for the final part to fall into place? Answer: it wouldnit. Irreducibly complex systems, which do not function if any core part is missing, can only be created by an intelligent designer who plans ahead.

BEHE DESCRIBES several irreducibly complex biological structures or processes in addition to the bacterial flagellar motor. One that is especially astounding is the blood-clotting cascade, which requires about a dozen specialized proteins to be present, plus intermediate forms generated during the cascade. Activated by a cut, a complex chain reaction is set off in the blood, in which each protein activates others in a long sequence. If any of the dozen proteins is missing, the clotting process either will not occur or will grossly malfunction. None of the cascade proteins serves any other function except controlling the formation of a blood clot. So itis not as if they were sitting around, performing some other function, and were ico-optedi into use for clotting blood. Because all of the proteins are necessary for the clotting process to function, they iwould have to arise as an integrated unit, in one fell swoop, for natural selection to have anything to act on,i Behe observes. In other words, the cascade is exactly the sort of process that icould not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modificationsioDarwinis own description of what would cause his theory to collapse.

But what about the scientific literature? Surely all one need do is turn to the literature to find the detailed accounts of how the flagellar motor, the blood clotting cascade, and similar biological features were gradually produced, step-by-step, by Darwinian evolution. Modern Darwinism is founded on those kinds of factual accounts. Right?

Wrong. Hereis where Behe really showed that the emperor has no clothes. Behe the biochemist had the audacity to search the relevant scientific journals, books, and proceedings of meetings to find out what the Darwinists had really proven about the origin of complex biochemical systems. He first reviewed the articles in the Journal of Molecular Evolution (JME), which would be the leading candidate to publish this kind of work. The JME publishes about a thousand papers per decade. Beheis findings may shock laymen who have accepted the notion that Darwinism has proven how complex biochemical systems actually evolved. Let Behe speak: iNone of the papers published in JMEover the entire course of its life as a journal has ever proposed a detailed model by which a complex biochemical system might have been produced in a gradual, step-by-step Darwinian fashion.i

He went on to examine other relevant scientific journals, proceedings of meetings, and books. The result was the same: iThere has never been a meeting, or a book, or a paper on details of the evolution of complex biochemical systems.i Thatis quite different from what most of us have been led to believe. Behe, recalling the ifierce resistancei he encountered after the publication of Darwinis Black Box, remarks that much of it came from iinternet fans of Darwinism who claimed that, why, there were hundreds or thousands of research papers describing Darwinian evolution of irreducibly complex biochemical systems.i Except that there arenit.

Well, this sent the Darwinians scrambling. Kenneth Miller, a biologist at Brown University who argues in favor of Darwinian evolution, made a splash when he announced (and he bolded the language in his article) that ithe bacterial flagellum is not irreducibly complex.i Miller cited a cellular structure known as the type III secretory system (TTSS) that allows certain bacteria to inject toxins through the cell walls of their hosts. This inasty little device,i in Milleris words, is a feature of several bacteria, including Y. pestis, the bacterium that is responsible for bubonic plague. According to research cited by Miller, the TTSS is made up of several proteins that are ihomologousi to a set of proteins from the base of the flagellum. Miller argued that the injector pump is probably an ievolutionary precursori to the flagellum, and it is fully functional although it has fewer parts. Therefore, ithe claim of irreducible complexity has collapsed, and with it any eevidencei that the flagellum was designed.i The iflagellum has been unspun,i Miller concluded.

But there was a little problem with Milleris declaration of victory. As it turns out, the bubonic plague bacterium already has the full set of genes necessary to make a flagellum. Rather than making a flagellum, Y. pestis uses only part of the genes that are present to manufacture that nasty little injector instead. As pointed out in a recent article by design theorist Stephen Meyer and microbiologist Scott Minnich (an expert on the flagellar system), the gene sequences suggest that iflagellar proteins arose first and those of the pump came later.i If evolution was involved, the pump came from the motor, not the motor from the pump. Also, ithe other thirty proteins in the flagellar motor (that are not present in the [pump]), are unique to the motor and are not found in any other living system.i Undirected evolutionary processes do not produce 30 novel proteins, of just the needed kind, to laze around idly in the cell for millennia so that a pump could some day transform itself into a motor. In short, the proteins in the TTSS do not provide a igradualisti Darwinian pathway to explain the step-by-step evolution of the irreducibly complex flagellar motor. Milleris spin has been unspun.

Thus, many scientists embracing naturalism find themselves in the seeming dilemma recently articulated by biochemist Franklin Harold: iWe should reject, as a matter of principle, the substitution of intelligent design for the dialogue of chance and necessity [i.e., Darwinian evolution]; but we must concede that there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts of the evolution of any biochemical system, only a variety of wishful speculations.i

BUT WHY SHOULD SCIENTISTS reject design as a matter of principle? And why should they do so when naturalistic explanations are lacking or deeply flawed, and the evidence of design is becoming more and more compelling?

Thatis the question being asked by the intelligent design theorists. William Dembski, whom we met above (the bespectacled guy with the bookcase full of advanced diplomas), has developed powerful arguments based on mathematics and information theory to show that design can be detected scientifically. He also demonstrates that as a matter of principle blind necessityothat is, the laws of natureocannot produce design of the kind life exhibits. Neither can that kind of design be produced by the interaction of chance and necessityothat is, by the Darwinian principle of random variation filtered through the laws of nature. Only intelligence can produce what Dembski refers to as icomplex specified information,i and life exhibits complex specified information (or ispecified complexityi) to an extraordinary degree.

It may seem strange, at first blush, to speak of life in terms of iinformation.i A fascinating part of this debate is that the naturalists do not disagree with the ID theorists in the slightest on this fundamental point. Both sides agree that life exhibits specified complexity, and that information theory is a fruitful and even necessary tool in explaining how life may have developed. But the term iinformationi is used here in a specially defined way.

For information of that type to be present in an object, Dembski explains, three conditions must be satisfied. These are contingency, complexity, and specification.

Letis look at contingency first. In an ordinary sequence of letters typed on a computer keyboard, each isloti in the sequence can contain any of the 26 letters of the alphabet, as well as numbers, punctuation marks, or other symbols. The symbol that can go in any one slot is therefore icontingenti: it might be A, it might be B, and so forth. But suppose my computer keyboard had only one key, and all I could type was:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

My computer would be incapable of producing contingency.

This is rather like the operation of many physical laws in nature. A pattern may be produced, but multiple outcomes are not possible. When molecules arrange themselves in a repeating pattern to form a crystal, that is the necessary result of their physical properties. Different, icontingenti outcomes cannot occur (at least not if the conditions under which the molecules are brought together remain the same).

Now letis look at complexity. The sequence of 22 letters:

KAZDNHF OPZSJHQL ZXFNV

is complex in a certain sense, because that exact pattern is highly unlikely to be produced by chance. If my computer keyboard could type only capital letters and the space character, there would be 27 characters that could go in any isloti of the sequence. The total number of unique sequences of characters that could be produced would be 27 multiplied by itself 22 times, or 27 to the 22nd power. That is a very large number. Expressed in powers of 10, it is more than 10 to the 31st power (1031); that is, 10 with another 30 zeros behind it. To give an idea of the size of that number, fewer than 1018 seconds have elapsed since the universe began about 20 billion years ago. If we wrote a program to run on a supercomputer that would generate random strings 22 characters long, and our supercomputer could run through a trillion tries every second, the odds would still be against producing this exact sequence by chance in 20 billion years. The fact that itis very improbable to produce this precise sequence by chance is another way of saying, in information theory, that it is highly complex.

The third criterion is specification. Hereis another 22-character sequence:

THE AMERICAN SPECTATOR

When we see this sequence, we conclude without a momentis hesitation that it has been produced by a fine intelligence. Like the gibberish sequence of the same length, it is complex because it would take more than those trillion tries a second over the history of the universe to produce it by chance. It is also specified in relation to a pre-existing standard or function; in this case, the rules, spelling, and vocabulary of the English language.

We easily, and usually accurately, make inferences as to when purposeful design by an intelligent agent is at work. In New Hampshire, there was for centuries a rock formation called iThe Old Man of the Mountain,i that resembled a human face. (It was obliterated by a rockslide in 2003.) Most of us would recognize this formation as simply a chance occurrence rather than design. There are lots of rocks in the world, and humans tend to see patterns that resemble faces. But if we plucked a villager from a remote valley in Nepal, who had not the slightest knowledge of American history, and whisked him to South Dakota, he would instantly and correctly recognize Mount Rushmore as an instance of design by an intelligence.

CAN COMPLEX SPECIFIED information be produced by unintelligent natural causes? Dembski argues forcefully that it cannot. In every case in which we know the icausal storyi underlying complex specified information (writing a sonnet, creating a computer program, or sculpting Mount Rushmore) we know that it has been produced by an intelligence. Citing the iLaw of Conservation of Information,i Dembski also shows that, apart from intelligence, the amount of information in a closed system can only stay the same or decrease. Natural causes can ishuffle aroundi information, but the total amount cannot increase without the activity of an intelligent agent.

As a matter of both theory and experience, therefore, specified complexity does not come into existence unless it is designed by an intelligence. And, where it exists, specified complexity can be identified either in a rough and ready way (Mount Rushmore) or by more rigorous, probabilistic means. In employing improbability to detect design, Dembski has formulated what he calls the iuniversal probability bound.i This is a number beyond which, under any circumstances, the probability of an event occurring is so small that we can say it was not the result of chance, but of design. He calculates this number by multiplying the number of elementary particles in the known universe (1080) by the maximum number of alterations in the quantum states of matter per second (1045) by the number of seconds between creation and when the universe undergoes heat death or collapses back on itself (1025). The universal probability bound thus equals 10150, and represents all of the possible events that can ever occur in the history of the universe. If an event is less likely than 1 in 10150, therefore, we are quite justified in saying it did not result from chance but from design. Invoking billions of years of evolution to explain improbable occurrences does not help Darwinism if the odds exceed the universal probability bound. Why should we care how specified complexity comes about, or how it can be detected? Because all life contains an enormous amount of complex specified information. The DNA in genes and chromosomes that makes up the blueprint for life is basically computer code. The information is contained in long sequences of nucleotide bases. There are four potential bases for any isloti in the sequence, often abbreviated by the letters A, C, G, and T to represent their chemical names. The sequence of those bases specifies what proteins will be produced, and how a plant or animal will be produced.

Like computer code or language, the sequencing of those four bases is contingentothe nucleotides donit bond with the nucleotides next to them in a necessary, repeating sequence. DNA sequences are also complex. In the human genome (that is, in the DNA present in each of our cells) there are about three billion such slots. The amount of information in the DNA of every human cell is greater than the information in all of the volumes of the Encyclopedia Britannica. Most importantly, DNA sequences in living things are specified in relation to a function: building a human, animal, or plant that can, at minimum, survive and reproduce.

HOW COULD THIS VAST AMOUNT of complex specified information come about without intelligence? The problem for Darwinian theory is particularly acute with respect to the origins of life. But even after life gets underway, random variation and natural selection canit conceivably generate the magnitude of information necessary, the ID theorists argue.

To take just one example, a well-known (and unsolved) problem for Darwinism is the Cambrian Explosion. As noted by Stephen Meyer in the book Debating Design, this event might be better called the Cambrian Information Explosion.For the first three billion years of life on Earth, only single-celled organisms such as bacteria and bluegreen algae existed. Then, approximately 570 million years ago, the first multi-cellular organisms, such as sponges, began to appear in the fossil record. About 40 million years later, an astonishing explosion of life took place. Within a narrow window of about 5 million years, iat least nineteen and perhaps as many as 35 phyla (of 40 total phyla) made their first appearance on EarthO.i Meyer reminds us that iphyla constitute the highest categories in the animal kingdom, with each phylum exhibiting unique architecture, blueprint, or structural body plan.i These high order, basic body plans include imollusks (squids and shellfish), arthropods (crustaceans, insects, and trilobites), and chordates, the phylum to which all vertebrates belong.i

These new, fundamental body plans appeared all at once, and without the expected Darwinian intermediate forms. The amount of new biological information necessary to create these abruptly emerging body plans is staggering. Meyer states that sponges such as those that existed right before the Cambrian explosion probably required about five basic cell types. More complex animals like the arthropods would have required 50 basic cell types. These in turn are dependent on new and different proteins. Citing recent research, he notes that the more complex kinds of single cell organisms might require about a million DNA base pairs to manufacture the necessary proteins. But a complex, multicellular organism such as an arthropod would require iorders of magnitudei more coding instructions. The modern fruit fly is an arthropod, and it has about 120 million base pairs. The odds that this quantity of information could be generated by random variation filtered through natural selection quickly surpass the iuniversal probability bound.i

Itis not going to happen. Not even once, in the entire universe, in its whole history.

But it did happen. The preceding paragraph of this article also happened, even though the odds of it being produced by chance also far exceed the universal probability bound. Thatis because itis not difficult for an intelligence to produce complex specified information that would otherwise be vanishingly improbable. Thatis also why the ID theorists contend that only an intelligence could possibly produce the vast and detailed information base that is required for life in all its amazing complexity and variety.

This is not an iargument from ignorancei or for a iGod of the gaps.i The ID theorists are not saying iWe donit know how something occurred, therefore God must have done it.i Rather, it is an iinference to the best explanation.i Naturalistic explanations have turned out to be wholly insufficient, in principle and in practice, to explain the specified complexity that characterizes life at the cellular and molecular level. We know that intelligent agents can generate complex specified information. As a matter of both experience and theory, it appears that complex specified information can only be generated by intelligence. So when we find living organisms that exhibit specified complexity, the best explanation is that the information was produced by an intelligent agent, and that the organism was, in fact, designed.

HOW HAS THE SCIENTIFIC ESTABLISHMENT reacted to the ID challenge? Variously. Some scientists have reconsidered their views, and become sympathetic to intelligent design. Others have engaged the ID theorists in debate, ranging in character from cordial to caustic.

Richard Dawkins refuses to debate Dembski, and a couple of years ago published an unfinished letter to the late Stephen Jay Gould, the renowned evolutionist from Harvard. In that letter, Dawkins proposed that they not debate ilatter day creationistsi who only want to share a platform with a ireal scientisti (such as, presumably, himself ). Dawkins is a true believer in the Darwinian faith, who characterizes his role as iAdvocate for Disinterested Truth.i He refers to religion as a ivirus of the mind,i and explicitly affirms that he is both icontemptuousi and ihostilei towards it. According to Dawkins, iIt is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane (or wicked, but Iid rather not consider that).i

It is plain to see that there is more than a disagreement over scientific techniques or reasoning here. Dawkinsi commitment to materialism and atheism is a philosophical position, not a scientific one. Those who challenge materialismis creation story must be anathematized. Unfortunately, the American Association for the Advancement of Science has taken a similar position. In a board resolution adopted in 2002, that organization charges the iso-calledi ID movement with, among other things, claiming ithat contemporary evolutionary theory is incapable of explaining the origin of the diversity of living organisms.i In other words, ID proponents are charged not merely with being wrong, but with committing heresy against contemporary evolutionary theory.i

Richard M. von Sternberg holds two Ph.D.s in the area of evolutionary biology, and is not himself an advocate of intelligent design. When serving as the managing editor of the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, he allowed a scholarly paper by the Discovery Instituteis Stephen Meyer to be published in that journal. Although he had followed standard peer review procedures, the full brunt of the Darwinian establishmentis wrath was brought down on him. You can read his account at www.rsternberg.net. Dembski summarizes the strident reaction to ID by parts of the scientific community (and presents strategies for handling it) in iDealing with the Backlash against Intelligent Design,i available at www.designinference.com .

The controversy has for several years been spilling into the public schools. The ID proponents do not contend that their theory ought to be taught in the public schools. All they claim is that students should be made aware that there is a controversy here. But the supporters of Darwinism are adamant. Only the Darwinian orthodoxy can be taught, and no theory critical of it can even be mentioned.

All of this suggests that what is at stake here are two competing philosophical visions: one that automatically rules out the possibility of God (and therefore a designer) as a matter of principle, and one that affirms God, or is at least willing to entertain the possibility of a designer. That division, to a great extent, underlies the iculture warsi and much else in our public life.

It is precisely because intelligent design relies upon scientific methods and evidence that it is regarded by the materialists as so extraordinarily dangerous. It threatens to allow religion to escape from the ghetto assigned to it by the dominant 19th- and 20th-century materialism. It actually claims to be true, on the same level that all science claims to be true.

If intelligent design makes good its claims, it might change the definition of science. It might change the assumptions on which we conduct our public discourse and education. It might change conceptions about whether there is an objective moral order. It might help open minds that would otherwise be closed.

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Ack it's been a few hours since I read that and I don't want to go through it again so I'll do my best to remember.

Yes 27^22 is a large number of key stroke combos. I don't get what that has to do with like, frogs with bigger legs being able to hop farther than normal frogs, to evade enemies and make tadpoles v2.0. Is he saying that the chances of a frog with bigger legs are slim to none?

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Intelligent Design doesn't claim that evolutionary theory in its entirety is impossible. ID merely seeks to find mechanisms which would require an intelligence. Not to mention that the variation in frog legs is dependent on a purposeful mechanism designed to recombine genes. Behe for example believes in the possibility of the latent library theory aka supercell. Creationists even accept certain aspects of evolutionary theory (in fact, a Christian proposed such ideas many years before Darwin), but based upon scientific evidence they don't consider it a valid explanation for the origin of species (chemical evolution or abiogenesis is actually a subject unto itself) nor vertical movement on the phylogenetic tree of life. Creationists believe that natural selection combined with functions built into DNA were designed to protect the stasis of species while still allowing enough genetic variation to survive in dynamics environments ranging from the frozen tundras of the Antarctic to the serengetti plains of Africa.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited June 01, 2005).]

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Alright I think Gump wins the award for the most words with least meaning. Like hell I'm taking the time to read that essay... please publish a series of "Posts on Cassette" for me since I don't have the time to read that.

Now for the sections I read:
China vs. Angels which exist and why?
-You state that China may not exist because you havn't seen it and others have. You also state that angels may exist for the same reason... now here's the part an intelligent person can point out to you: China is a definate proof because I can say to you "Let's go on a quick trip *time passes* look dumb-anus CHINA! *follow by multiple accounts of physical abuse" Now angels you can argue that through the bible and faith you can achieve spiritual whatnot enough to see and encounter angels. Seriously though, you cannot just see an angel, hell along my thinking they do not exist and the only sight of one is dillusion or some beverage.

Random's existance:
-Cheese is stating something that I don't really think you people understand. Random is yet to be proven. Pi is even questioned by some, few as being totally random. Is there really a way to create random? Sure spin in a circle and point at something with your eye's closed, is that random? Some argue this because of Freud's (I think) interpretation of accidents being completely false. Anything done by "accident" is really an act of the subconcious rather than a mistake. Now is it possible your subconsious altered your spin to point at that particular thing? Probably not but there's the chance.

Ohh now my question to be thrown into the mix:
First things first, your religion states that Adam and Eve were the original humans who prospered to create the human race correct? (This is still from a vastly uneducated view) So... let's say that Adam and Eve were regular (don't bother arguing the definition of regular to me, I just used it as a quick word rather than rattle through my mind for a more appropreate word) white male/female.... where the hell did the other ethnic humans come from then? Did a black child just fall out one day? Because without change/evolution those people technically should not exist.

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

Nomad
Member

Posts: 63
From:
Registered: 06-29-2004
Capn Stank:

If you have parents or children around, you can see pretty easily that you are not exactly like either one, and vice versa. Different ethinicities actually arose due to the destruction of genetic information: Adam and Eve (and the other early ancestors) had all the alleles (possible genetic sequences for particular traits) for brown eyes, blue eyes, brown hair, blonde, etc. As generations passed, children inherited only a subset of the original genetic information. By a certain point (the Bible records an incident with languages at Babel tower), people began to have children only with close relatives and the such, further reducing the subset of alleles that children would inherit.

For more information on genetics, look up Punnett squares to see how information is lost with passing generations. That website www.answersingenesis.org has a good bit of information about evolution questions and the like.

[This message has been edited by Nomad (edited June 02, 2005).]

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
My oh my, they know that Adam and Eve had all the possible gene sequences... Capn, we gotta invest in one of these time machines that everyone else seems to have.

Also so I can have a sit-down with Jesus and discuss how eternal damnation is a fitting end for someone who just sits on his arse and plays games all day.

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
You guys might be surprised to know that genetic research is pointing to the possibility that Adam and Eve might have been...black or reddish brown. This is because only people of black heritage appear to contain enough genetic diversity that a line could break off to produce lighter skin tones. Dead racists like Darwin and Ku Klux members must be spinning in their graves like generators!

Anyway, skin tone is caused by the amount of melanin in the skin cells. Physically the difference between white and black is minute. As seen with Michael Jackson it's fully possible for a "black" person to become "white" in a short amount of time; it's not something deeply ingrained.

Oh, and the "all possible gene sequences" idea is a prediction based upon theories. It has evidence for it but it cannot be stated to be a fact. Especially since it's now now known that in a hostile environment damage to a cell that bypasses all its defense mechanisms can trigger a programmed stress response in DNA -- a survival mechanism initiated during replication. This programmed response actually intitiates a randomizer function that purposely mutates, within certain constraints, a specific data set. Now whether this mechanism creates "new" information is unknown, but it is know that it makes new combinations of data that might help the cell survive in the hostile environment. Of course, this bit of evidence must be balanced with the fact that several generations of cells later another mechanism may detect the self-created error and restore from multiple backups.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited June 02, 2005).]

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
Alright I think Gump wins the award for the most words with least meaning. Like hell I'm taking the time to read that essay... please publish a series of "Posts on Cassette" for me since I don't have the time to read that.

Okay, go through and read it again. This time try to actually understand what's being said. If you go reading something with the intent of wanting it to be false, then you will see it as false. Are you really so close-minded that you can't even understand the meaning of the professional quality article that Gump wrote?

quote:
Seriously though, you cannot just see an angel, hell along my thinking they do not exist and the only sight of one is dillusion or some beverage.

You should not just assume something like that. I bet the reason you do is because you don't want it to be true. But I know for a fact that you are wrong.

quote:
Ohh now my question to be thrown into the mix:
First things first, your religion states that Adam and Eve were the original humans who prospered to create the human race correct? (This is still from a vastly uneducated view) So... let's say that Adam and Eve were regular (don't bother arguing the definition of regular to me, I just used it as a quick word rather than rattle through my mind for a more appropreate word) white male/female.... where the hell did the other ethnic humans come from then? Did a black child just fall out one day? Because without change/evolution those people technically should not exist.

Microevolution is absolutely verifiable. Microevolution says that animals are different sizes, people have different color hair and eyes. People have different color shades of skin. But as for macroevolution, it is a bad theory, with no evidence what so ever. Not one shred of it. Not one transitional form from the millions that should be easily found. Macroevolution says that monkeys become humans, and that dinosaurs become birds. There is no evidence for this at all. Not one shred of proof anywhere.

Here is a site for you to read through. I urge you to go through it. Someone who is interested in science should take a serious look at all possibilities. If you like real science, then stop trying to suppress the failed theories of the past. Move forward.


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If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited June 02, 2005).]

Nomad
Member

Posts: 63
From:
Registered: 06-29-2004
My good Cheese (or bad Cheese, depending on how long it's in the fridge, eh? Heh heh...):

I apologize for my poor clarification in that it is only a theory about that genetic sequences bit (thanks, Gump). I simply wanted to put out pretty quickly that ethnicity can be explained in terms of common ancestry without "information-generating" mutations/evolution.

As for your original question from way back about whether good people that don't believe in Jesus are condemned, now rephrased in terms of people sitting on their rumps all day:

brandon had a pretty good short-answer/long-answer bit pretty early on. The matter can also be cast in an idea of, "How good would be good enough?" This is one aspect of the issues Jesus addressed in his Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5,6, and 7). It is not enough to simply pass through life having never killed a person, even holding someone in anger is enough for condemnation. It is not enough to simply never go to bed with someone you aren't married to, but looking lustfully on someone else is enough to be in danger of eternal fire. All these sins must be somehow paid for, and we as Christians hold up the hope that Jesus paid that penalty for us.

The interesting point has been brought up about nominal Christianity, or simply citing Christ as Lord but then running about murdering or adulterating or whatnot. It was probably mentioned somewhere here (if not, it should have been) that even demons recognize Christ as Lord. So even a nominal recognition is still not enough.

It is ultimately a matter of what is in a person's heart. Consider Romans 2:14-15:

"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the law's requirements are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."

This was Paul's contribution to a debate in the early Church regarding whether Gentile converts to Christianity should be considered righteous, even though they were not educated in the Jewish laws. He argued that "they are a law for themselves": even though they do not have the actual Bible, they have an innate sense of right and wrong (which is originally from God anyway). That the whole population is not aware of this is the fault originally of those ancestors that abandoned the worship of God in favor of whatever idolatry they could find; it is now the Church's obligation to correct this deficiency, and "make disciples of all nations" (see Matthew 28:19-20).

Any clarifications that would be helpful, please feel free to ask. Keep seeking sincerely, keep asking questions, and peace.

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Brandon:: Why should I care whether or not angels exist. I stated that because it is fact. You cannot immediately go and view angels now can you? Heck, if angels exist all the more power to them but I don't see where you get the idea that I don't want them to. I accept things as they are and I accept change. Oh and you'll also note that I did not read Gump's essay. I said that it was a waste of time to read such a long comment. This is a conversation not term papers passed back and forth.

------------------
Jesus is f'ing metal!

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Darwin called some primitive societies 'savages' but we was greatly opposed to slavery, despite living in a time where ppl could be passed around like currency. It is sickening to see people (mostly the ones trying to discredit his theories) compare him to Hitler... blaming Darwin for WWII and Communism is like blaming the Wright Brothers for 9/11. He probably had no way of knowing that we seem to have originated from Africa or whatever... do you really think that would've bothered him?

Capn: "I don't have the time to read that."
Brandon: "Okay, go through and read it again. This time try to actually understand what's being said."
Beeeow was I the only who caught the irony in there?

"If you like real science, then stop trying to suppress the failed theories of the past. Move forward."
Well that is ironic too but only from my point of view I guess.

Cheese is the pinnacle of mankind's technological achievements, after slush of course.

Bah people who believe in saskquatches are probably more likely to 'see' them and 'know' they exist. I've probably seen a half dozen of 'em but it's cause I don't want them to exist that I don't accept them as facts. Come to think of it there's more Bigfoot evidence than angel/soul evidence. And I don't count like 'my god that puddle of oil is shaped exactly like the Virgin Mary's left ear'. People like that... aw man once I have my army of rapid-cloning bipedal lizard monsters (later upgraded to non-organic style), game over man, GAME OVER.

K and the assassin-lizards could have like one of those computer-mirror suits for invisibility to the naked eye, and like some kind of crazy glass/water layer to make it look like room temperature if you used heat-seeking stuff to scan for them. And that bumpy stealth material to deflect radar. gogogo and some kind of wicked blade, psheeow sloice sloice, omg what's going on. Nice lil squads of like four or six just roaming about, you got no communications man. Whoa just thought, if they're lizards anyway, they don't even need the computer-mirrors, cause they could be like chameleons.

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
For a decent argument I reference my personal notes on this subject. For a good argument I reference one of the books in my house and perhaps the internet. For a great argument I visit libraries, study the topic deeply, and maybe even contact one of the engineers or scientists from NASA I know in my area. For your arguments I've been responding off the top of my head without too much thought put into it. If you don't have time to read something that's fairly BASIC in scope...then what are you even doing arguing with me?

Matthew 7:6 my friends...

Oh, and try actually READING Darwin's book instead of parroting what someone told you. The subtitle for Origin of Species is "Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life" for a reason.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited June 03, 2005).]

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
Brandon:: Why should I care whether or not angels exist.

If you knew that angels existed, would that change any of your beliefs?

quote:
I stated that because it is fact. You cannot immediately go and view angels now can you?

You can't just go and view an angel at your discretion, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.

quote:
Heck, if angels exist all the more power to them but I don't see where you get the idea that I don't want them to.

Actually being imperfect, I did what I said you shouldn't do. I assumed that you didn't want angels to exist, but maybe I was wrong.

quote:
I accept things as they are and I accept change. Oh and you'll also note that I did not read Gump's essay. I said that it was a waste of time to read such a long comment. This is a conversation not term papers passed back and forth.

Okay, maybe you should put aside a few minutes and try to read Gump's article. If you really accept things as they are and accept change, then do you believe that the study of macroevolution which has never been observed is real science? According to Darwin's own words, the theory has completely fallen apart. Gump's article is really worth giving 20 minutes of your time to read. The study of Intelligent Design is worth looking into, and it is FAR from uneducated or stupid.

------------------
If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
it seems like a huge discourtesy for blatently disregard a post that supports someone's opinion and then pretend it never happened. It would be safe for me to assume that it probably disproved some things you hold dear and so you ignored it, pretended it didn't exist.

By the way, I doubt that you could easily go and see missle launch codes or stuff like that in the military, it would probably be easier to find an angel than secret military info. Besides, without my guardian angel, it might be harder for me to find China...

Edit : Minor spelling

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The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

[This message has been edited by max (edited June 04, 2005).]

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
I've read about twenty times as much of the Bible as I have of Origin of Species and they are both incredibly boring. The amount of bloodshed in the Bible would not be required by any god. And some of Darwin's detailed explanations are apparently innaccurate (yeah I'm parroting). So it is enough for me to check modern books for the overall message of evolution. As for the subtitle, obviously some races will be better than others at different things.

I'd be surprised if evolution HAD been observed, Brandon... it takes a rather long time(imoimoimoimo). Unless godly aliens are indeed visiting Earth periodically to tinker with DNA and make the illusion of evolution, ID style. They must have a considerable deal of time on their hands. imoimo.

If what goes around comes around, no mortal crime is worthy of eternal torment as a punishment. And I hope no human has enough hate to want to sentence someone to that end... you need superpowers to inflict that much pain and not feel regret. And thus I reject your God and probably many others.

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
You don't think that you should be punished for the evil you've done in your life? No matter what you do, you have sinned and you will sin. You can't just ignore it, can you? God isn't damning people to eternal torture, that are damning themselves. God has shown the way out, and they are choosing to fall when in the long run it is so easy to simple believe and follow. Christians are pretty much like normal people, so it is not a huge change in who you are. If all people got was a slap on the wrist, than what's to keep them from sinning over and over again? Pople who honestly don't know about and have never heard about God are innocents, so they aren't damned.

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The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

Nomad
Member

Posts: 63
From:
Registered: 06-29-2004
Cheese:

I think many of us have misunderstood your original question, or at least the question's motivation. Indeed, a lot of sidetracking with evolution and angels and China seems to have gone on. Max left a decent point on that last one, but it might be a little more gruff than you'd like.

The thing is, you do have an excellent point: I too reject all the "gods" that would heartlessly mete out or threaten to mete out eternal punishment for not doing their bidding. God the Father Almighty, however, is a bit different. In the historical examples left recorded in the Bible about the judgments He delivered on the nation of Israel for disobeying Him, He is never "happy" or even "grimly satisfied" in doing so. He is always quite heartbroken. The book of Revelation, recording visions of the ultimate Day of Judgment, never sees God as heartlessly pounding the heathens, but as desperately trying to get the people's attention however He has to.

"But if He really is as loving as the Christians say, why not do away with Judgment/wrath and the like entirely?" As Max was touching on, wrongs cannot go unpunished - God's righteous character cannot tolerate that. This is why He sent His own Son to die that death for us: this is about as close as we're going to see God bending His own rules (though, of course, it really is the fulfillment of His rules). As I mentioned in an earlier post, it is the Church's responsibility to spread this very Good News to the ends of the earth.

Another way to think about what Max was saying is an analogy comparing God's Holiness to a really hot object. If that really hot object is brought into contact with a really cold or even a lukewarm object, that second object will be burnt. But if it is in contact with another hot object, not much heat will transfer, no one gets burned. God's Judgment is not a matter of His being some cosmic bully that looks for people, says all "They ain't doing what I want!", then torches like a kid frying ants on an ant hill. God is fully aware of how far we've fallen because of sin, and the Day is coming when we will all stand before Him, seeing Him quite plainly. Just the very power of His presence is overwhelming and will incinerate anyone that is not "covered" somehow.

I know these posts get long, and I too don't have much time to really read through them all. If you'd like to exchange IMs and talk better back-and-forth sometime, that'd be cool. Other than that, happy hunting and peace be with you.

P.S.: Try eBay for that lizard army. :-)

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Punishment is good for teaching criminals, hell if I was in charge, violent offenders would get gun-to-mouth recessitation, but a lake of fire until the end of time? Gimme a break, that system would be overkill.

I wonder, if anyone could volunteer to have a brain surgery procedure to stop them from ever becoming angry (without any other side-effects), how many would go for it? I'm guessing the majority of people would sacrifice world peace for their free will and any destructive emotions that they've grown up with.

Hmm you could like disable the pain-thing in your brain, and then Hell would be boring and unpleasant but still quite bearable. Religion is so stupid and funny at the same time, they all know they're right, so they should all just get along fine, especially when they gotta team up against a bunch of ninja raptors.


Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
You have totally sidestepped the point and made new points to avoid it. It's not how violent a crime is, it is the fact that people constantly sin. It's not that you had a bad thought about someone, or got angry, nor would anyone volunteer to get rid of an emotion, it is that people keep having bad thoughts throughout their lives. Over the years it piles up to an incredible amount, so who pays for that? What makes it ok in the balance of everything?

The one true God does, he doesn't ask you to become a priest or anything, to change many habits, he just asks for you to lead a Christian life and not be destructive, try to mend your ways. Christians battle constantly to try and remain pure, like Christ, but we can't so we ask for forgiveness.

Cheese, you have been trying to find loopholes to make special circumstances work, such as your hermit from earlier. Face it, there is no one who has not sinned, except for newborn children, and Christ. You have sinned, I have sinned, but I have asked for forgiveness many times and have been forgiven, many times. God will not forsake anyone who does not forsake themselves!

I hope it is all understandable, and I'm sorry that it is a tad lengthy.


Edit : Minor spelling.
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The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

[This message has been edited by max (edited June 04, 2005).]

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Huh those other paragraphs were just new ideas. I brought the damn point to attention so I'm not trying to avoid it. For an eternal punishment you would have to commit an eternal crime which is impossible for any human as far as I'm concerned. What, over the years my sins will build up to infinity?

I'm just learning about your system... I don't even believe sins exist. No finite amount of crime (or even thinking about it) is worth eternal punishment!

Nomad
Member

Posts: 63
From:
Registered: 06-29-2004
The idea that punishment should match the crime is very well founded. Old Testament law refers to "eye for eye, life for life, etc." However, our answer to your question is found in looking at the original sin.

God gave the simple command not to eat the fruit of a certain tree. Adam and Even went and did it anyway. Since then, we all have fallen short of the great things God wants for us, being crafted in His image and likeness.

It would be nice, surely, to consider some kind of democratic appeal: everyone starts off life with a clean slate, some morality scale of 0. However, because none of us is functioning as God meant for us to, we already start off at negative infinity.

In a very real sense, then, the punishment does fit the crime. However, this is NOT the emphasis of our beliefs. The emphasis is placed in exactly the other way around: not on how far we've fallen and how God should be pounding us, but on what all God is doing to bring us back to the greatness He made us for. Thus the Sermon on the Mount, thus Jesus' sacrifice, and pretty much all of human history fits in there.

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
No offence but really look at the "original sin" they took a fruit of many. Sure it was against word, but I have friends that let's say, swipe a Starburst from me. Yes they took it, I did not want them to, but did I condem them forever **** no! I still see religion as an escape of the fears that the average idiot cannot deal with. People are afraid of death, so they believe there's somethimg to achieve after. People are afraid to commit crime for the same reason.

Seriously though, what are you trying to assume for me here? I did not read any of Gump's moronically long post, I did not read anything in it so how could I find something that I disagree with? When I say I didn't read it I mean I didn't read it. I gain nothing from lying to you fools. Besides these arguments are more of a passtime for me. I've recently upgraded my car's stereo, hobbies of a hell of a lot more interest than this and friends. Why should I spend 20-30 minutes reading someone's essay that I'll find 3 points in it to disagree with so he can post another essay?

If I did discover the existance of angels I'd pretty much be forced to believe in religion under my morals now wouldn't I? I shun religion because of its lack of proof in contrast to a more let's say probable cause of life. If I discovered that religion was right and evolution was wrong why the hell would I defend evolution to the death when I experienced truth with my own eyes that the other is the truth? Once again, when I say something I mean it. I can adapt to change, and I accept it.

------------------
Jesus is f'ing metal!

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
So in short your own destiny is so boring you're not even interested in it? You're waiting for someone else to do the work and handfeed the truth to you instead of going on an open-minded search for it?

We've heard it from the source...Matthew 7:6 my friends. There is only so much we can do and there is plenty of fertile ground elsewhere.

Though I will say one thing. My responses are so long primarily because the topic is so complex. I barely even scratched the surface in this thread. I just can't simplify the content matter any further for your easy consumption.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited June 05, 2005).]

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Truth be told I can ramble on for large paragraphs too. For one I choose not to because I understand that not many people want to read for endless minutes for me to finish my point. I dumb everything I say down to a simple comment.

Its not that I don't care what happens its the fact that through my beliefs I have no control over it. I still believe what I did when I joined this site and I guarantee that your comments will not convert me.
Besides where in my post did I comment on my destiny being boring? Did you just assume that because I choose not to read your bloated responce? I say that this is a passtime because that is exactly what it is for me and for most of you I'm hoping. If you devote a certain amount of your life to these arguments that you hold them dear to you you should step outside and get some sunshine!

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Hey, simplicity is my middle name, I can condense that horse-pill of a post into something more manageable:
1. Evolutionists are snide, know-it-all journalists and conspiring racist scientists who scramble for cover whenever a new theory arises.
2. It is only worth mentioning someone's credentials if you agree with them.
3. Kraft Dinner is an economical decision for decent eating.
4. Propeller-powered bacteria are efficient, and were designed by an intelligent force, not necessarily God, along with all life forms.

One of the main arguments was like, the lil bacterium have all the parts they need and no extra ones, while evolution could produce creatures with extra parts that neither hindered or improved the creature's chances of success. Well, it does, and many creatures have 'extra' parts. So ha. Or less parts, I guess, cause 'proto-lemur' had a tail, and lots of lemurs still do, but some don't, but they're still quite good tree-climbers. Except maybe then the lemur who reproduced with the tailess kind was like "wtf u didnt say this was gonna be hereditary, look at our kids, they're freaks", but then the children did alright, cause the tail isn't mandatory. And that's my theory of lemur evolution, well actually I just saw it on TV.

Eh everyone is obsessed with that 'pearls before swine' thing. Good comic strip by the same name I believe though. "Eh, zeeba neighba."

Lemurs are sweet though, they can leap and climb and eat bamboo and stuff. God's alternative to monkeys. Monkeys are just like "ee ee", lemurs are like stfu noob ** i bring j00 teh_pwn, monkeys are like beotch check my stats, lemur is like u use win-bot on ladder matches cuz u got no skills, check out my micro.


[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited June 05, 2005).]

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
I'm pretty sure that'll just confuse teh_n00bs more than anything.

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Sigh...

Since we are fools, why do you even bother with us?

One point, in my opinion, since we are classified as fools, you are verily denounced to be swine. It is only fitting through your unintelligable attempt at speaking and slandering. It's too bad that you don't understand, but I doubt you will find any of us directly insulting you (until now) so I really don't see how that makes you live a better life than "most" Christians. Besides, if you don't believe in Christ, than you don't live a better life than the other Christians, simple as that.

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The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
quote:
Originally posted by max:

Besides, if you don't believe in Christ, than you don't live a better life than the other Christians, simple as that.


Says who? You live a better life because you watch every step in attempt to satisfy an overwhelming being who's existance is still to this point questionable?

Swine? Meh I actually go around publically being called oaf. It doesn't touch me like it does other people. I hang around here because its actually comical to read a lot of your attempts at opinion and responces. You don't really pose your own opinion as I've seen it countless times from other people in other places. How it gets copied on such a wide scale I have no clue, guess I'll have to read the bible now wont I?

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
You don't really pose your own opinion as I've seen it countless times from other people in other places. How it gets copied on such a wide scale I have no clue, guess I'll have to read the bible now wont I?

I'd agree, but there is a reason Christians hold the same type of opinion on such important issues! But you said yourself that you have no clue how... yeah, I'd definitely recommend the Bible.

quote:
We've heard it from the source...Matthew 7:6 my friends. There is only so much we can do and there is plenty of fertile ground elsewhere.

I couldn't agree more.

------------------
If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
quote:
Originally posted by CapnStank:
Says who? You live a better life because you watch every step in attempt to satisfy an overwhelming being who's existance is still to this point questionable?

It is only questionable to you and cheese here. It is not to the rest of us.

Math gets copied on a wide scale, so does English, and other languages. It's not surprising, when something works, and is correct and widely accepted, people believe in it. I believe that 2+2=4, but it gets "copied" by many people on a large scale. Doesn't mean that everyone dealing with it is a mindless agent. You can ask anyone what 2+2 is, and they will give the same answer, not because the fact that they have all been brainwashed, but because that is what they believe.

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The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
It appears there is a misunderstanding of what exactly sin is!

Sin isn't just about law & order.

It's about rejecting God.

If somebody decides they don't want heaven, God isn't going to drag them there against their will.

Does that clarify?

------------------
6 "This is what the LORD says --
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to comeó
yes, let him foretell what will come.

8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." -- Isaiah 44:6-8, NIV

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Ok time for my next ramble before I take off for work...

The whole who leads a better life thing... yeah let's just all agree right now that we'll never get past it and its probably one of the worst arguments that's been started here so let's all just drop it.

Now for my next question. God, being the almighty powerful man he is exists outside of time, knows the beginning and the end and everything in between. That has been stated clearly for me throughout many sources, but my question here is, IF God knew everything in between why did he even put the fruit there for Adam & Eve? He KNEW they were going to take it so he did it anyway. My point? Why would God intentionally set up the hoax, KNOW what's going to happen and then get angry at mankind for doing something that he could've/should've prevented from step one!

------------------
Jesus is f'ing metal!

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Hmm, we are swine because of our poor speech? Please learn to spell 'unintelligible' before trying to label our messages with it. Me fail English? That's unpossible! However, I do promote the use of name-calling. You sausage.

You can argue that Christians have a better after-life, because no one can disprove that (or prove it, for that matter). But to state that Christians live a better life than non-Christians simply based on their beliefs is lunacy. Labels are meaningless in this case... there are bad Christians and bad non-Christians.

*edit*
http://slate.msn.com/id/2062009/ Bahaaaa.

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited June 06, 2005).]

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Ouch, my bad on the spelling error, thank you for catching me on it. A lot of times I am just typing away and I don't even check it.

If Man never sinned, we would be mindless robots without souls, there would be no point to anything because God would have drones that simply say "I love you" without any meaning. I means something when we love him, it is because we have sinned and are coming back to him.

Edit - Spelling error

------------------
The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

[This message has been edited by max (edited June 06, 2005).]

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Slate repeating the dogma with no facts referenced to back them up...no surprise there. I almost laughed several times while reading it. Either the author is ignorant and parroting dogma or he is flat-out lying.

If you cannot defend your own belief system for yourself at least try linking to references of actual merit. Try a science journal or something.

Before I quit this thread let me leave off with a challenge:

Cite a paper that gives a mutation-by-mutation account of critical steps at the amino acid level for a single evolutionary pathway, either direct or indirect. Proteins change single mutation by single mutation, amino acid by amino acid, so thatís the level of explanation that is needed. And not only a list of mutations, but also a detailed account of the selective pressures that would be operating, the difficulties such changes would cause for the organism, the expected time scale over which the changes would be expected to occur, the likely population sizes available in the relevant ancestral species at each step, other potential ways to solve the problem which might interfere, and this paper must be peer reviewed.

I'll make the challenge easier. This model doesn't have to be what happened in reality; it just needs to be thorough/complete, plausible, doesn't contradict the natural laws, and capable of making predictions. Alternatively, you could cite a paper which presents a series of experiments showing that random mutations combined with environment directed natural selection is capable of building a system of the complexity of the adaptive immune system.

If your beliefs are as undeniably true as you apparently think they are then you should have no trouble at all answering my challenge. Ask your science teacher for the answer or email a science journal to request the required data. Of course, if you can't answer my challenge then the debate is over and all that is left to try is vain blustering...or you could start a determined study to find the truth. Who knows, maybe you'll eventually be able to prove me wrong. More likely you'll take that long, hard slog up the mountain of truth just to find the theists who'd already been sitting there for centuries, theists like Bacon and Kepler and Newton and Kelvin who fathered every major branch of Science.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited June 06, 2005).]

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Well that is my point I guess. Why is it that you want us to spend an amount of time searching for something moronic to explain a common argument/conversation? We don't have the time to do such things like you apperently do. Does it make you feel grand that you can state such things? You're not impressing anyone except the idiots who follow you.

Max, why is it that we'd be mindless robots without sin? Is it because we would not live our lives to appease God? So then am I a mindless robot? Disobeying someone is not a requirement of life.

------------------
Jesus is f'ing metal!

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
quote:
Max, why is it that we'd be mindless robots without sin?

Because not allowing sin severely limits our choices, and it appears that God is not a God who enjoys putting such severe limits on his creatures.

------------------
6 "This is what the LORD says --
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to comeó
yes, let him foretell what will come.

8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." -- Isaiah 44:6-8, NIV

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004

quote:
Well that is my point I guess. Why is it that you want us to spend an amount of time searching for something moronic to explain a common argument/conversation?

Umm maybe he wants you to search for something to help you say why you believe what you believe. CapnStank, don't respond to this question, just consider it. Why can't you even explain what you believe in and why you believe it?

quote:
We don't have the time to do such things like you apperently do. Does it make you feel grand that you can state such things? You're not impressing anyone except the idiots who follow you.

Okay, is it that you don't have the time to put together a decent argument instead of your senseless bickering, or is it that you just can't do it because you've been outwitted? Sometimes it's better to keep silent than to come out with personal attacks because you can't say anything against what's been stated. The only thing that you've managed to do is express your unfounded hate for what we stand for.

To others:
There were people who knew that Jesus Christ rose from the grave. The high priest for instance. He knew of the resurrection, but tried to cover it up. The roman soldiers were present when the angels appeared, and they still did not believe. The Pharisees saw the miracles that Jesus did, but they attributed them to the devil! Infact they knew that Jesus brought Lazarus back to life, so not only did they plan to have Jesus killed, they also plotted to kill Lazarus because he was a living testimony to Christ! I don't have a problem with trying to show someone the truth. But if he has told us that he has already decided to not even consider what we have to say, then we are really wasting our time. Sheesh, and here I thought he was open to change...

------------------
If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
I believe what I believe because of the reasons I've stated numerous times in this thread and in the good ol' About Bob rants. I don't think that finding someone else's work is worthwhile to me since this carries no effect on my life (the argument not the actual beliefs). What is the ultimate reason that you believe in Christianity and God? It probably isn't much different than the reasons I believe against it.

You complain that I'm dodging the point of Gump's question. Well I'll concider that when you reply to my query first. Although all my concideration has actually been completed. I don't intend on searching for that, chances are it doesn't exist like he's already noticed.

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Hey Capn!

Sorry I didn't reply to this query earlier -- I thought someone else might pick it up. Is this the question that you wanted answered, or the "mindless robots" query?

I don't have a good answer for the "mindless robots" thing, I'm not so sure about the statement, and I don't choose to adopt or defend Gump's assertion.

I'll try to make my answers short and to the point, though I fear I may need to lay out a bit of background to answer your question. I apologize in advance for the length of my reply.

quote:
Originally posted by CapnStank:
Now for my next question. God, being the almighty powerful man he is exists outside of time, knows the beginning and the end and everything in between.


Well, He's not an almighty powerful *man* -- but he is the Almight Powerful One. But yes, I know what you're saying. So far so good...

quote:
That has been stated clearly for me throughout many sources, but my question here is, IF God knew everything in between why did he even put the fruit there for Adam & Eve? He KNEW they were going to take it so he did it anyway. My point? Why would God intentionally set up the hoax, KNOW what's going to happen and then get angry at mankind for doing something that he could've/should've prevented from step one!

That's a great question, and one which I don't have an easy answer for. However, I have an answer for it, and I won't fault you if you find it hard to accept.

In order to answer this question, one must first be willing to accept God as God. If God is God, that means that He is the end-all, say-all, and that whatever God says, goes.

That said, as truth-seekers, we are also responsible for analyzing our beliefs and making sure that they line up and are sound and accurate. That is what you're asking now -- if God is the First Mover, then why are we held responsible? How can God hold us responsible? It would seem that either we shouldn't be held responsible, or if we are held responsible, then God is unjust.

The Bible deals with this question fairly head on.
Romans 9
The question is set up in verses 10 through 13. The situation is that Rebekah was bearing twins, Jacob and Esau, and she was told *before they were born* that the older would serve the younger, that God would love one, and despise the other. He did this before they even had a chance to do any sin.

The question is asked in verse 14 -- "Is God unjust?" I believe that's the question you're asking.

The short answer is, "Of course God isn't unjust!" Verses 15 and on explain the answer, which comes down to, how can we, the made things, talk back to God? Will a chamber pot ask the potter, "Why did you make me a chamber pot?" What if God made us all the way He did, in order to show His mercy.

Verse 30 touches on the question, "Well howcome the gentiles -- who don't practice the law and follow all of the rules -- howcome they get to be saved without trying very hard, and the Jews failed?". Paul answers that God put a stumbling block in the way of the people (which is the law -- the impossible-to-follow law). People fall because of the stumbling block, and are in need of God's mercy. God's mercy is shown in that all who trust in Him will be saved.

The bottom line is that we are all imperfect pots, we have all stumbled, and we are all fit for destruction. There is *nothing* in ourselves that makes one person worthy of salvation and another for destruction. It is purely the mercy of God. God is willing to save all who come to Him and trust in Him -- even though those who come to him are unworthy.


God *is* merciful though, and He is willing to show mercy on all who trust in Him. The salvation and adoption process is one of the most difficult and beautiful of all of the Christian doctrines.

We are all guilty, and yet for those who ask, Christ will step in and cover us with His righteousness. By that, we can be pronounced "not guilty", and are exonerated from punishment. Yet it goes even further than that! Not only has God said "you are free to go", but He also says, "come, live in my house, and be my child". He has adopted us as His children, and co-heirs with Christ.

I don't expect this answer to sit well with you, or that it would be one which you can ever totally settle on. To be honest, it's one which I was only recently somewhat resolved on, and there are still some tough things about it.


Note that this is one of the hardest points about Christianity. I, for one, have a much easier time accepting this logically than I can accept the tenants of any other world view. However, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, I would probably be a Buddhist. Their stuff sounds really good. However, in spite of Buddhist teachings (which sound a lot like Jesus' teachings), my faith is built on the historical fact of the bodily ressurection of Christ. If that wasn't true, then I certainly wouldn't want to be a Christian, because I'd be wasting my time.


Like I said, I apologize for the length of my reply, but I hope you realize that I don't shy away from your questions, and I appreciate your honesty and up-frontness in asking such things.

Respectfully,
clint

(fixed the Romans 9 URL)

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited June 07, 2005).]

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Ah, the mindless robot thing, here's a short rant mixed with a rhetorical question.

God created us so he could love us, and so we could love him. His main goal for us is to love himi and praise him, etc. This may make God look vain, but in reality he is not. He wants to give us eternal life, and why shouldn't we praise someone who is giving us eternal life in paradise? That being said, he could MAKE people love him, but then it means nothing, and it is simply words. To quote Bruce Almighty "How do you make someone love you without affecting free will?" You can't, and don't.

Here's the rhetorical question - Say you are given a choice of two women to be your wife, (hypothetically) One of them will tell you she loves you no matter what and will always do what you say when you say and will never waiver, you will never fight and she will always agree with you, you don't have to do anything. The other chooses to love you, and even though times may be rough, and you may not always agree with her, but you work through it and feel like a couple. You actually are in love.

Which woman would you choose?

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The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Well evolution is like (to my thinking):
Time + slim chance of mutation + crapload of replicators = better replicators!
ID is like...
Time (lots to kill) + genetic engineering aliens/angels/gods = better stuff!

If either of these were proven we wouldn't be discussing it. Do you really think that super-advanced scientists(God) made old critters and then erased a bunch and came back and made new ones? How the hell does that fit into backing up your stuff with facts?

As for the free-will Vs. limited-will... If you're saying that being forced to live in Eden and be good and have fun is a bad thing, you so craaazy. Or, God is craaazy. I wouldn't mind being forced to have fun. And if a snake asked me if I wanted to learn how to have MORE fun, my robot instincts would kick in and I'd tie that serpent in a knot. Wait would that work on a snake... hmm there's a new addition to the to-do list.


GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
quote:
Do you really think that super-advanced scientists(God) made old critters and then erased a bunch and came back and made new ones? How the hell does that fit into backing up your stuff with facts?

Care to provide a source for your assertation? Since I know you cannot, your response is simply a strawman argument combined with ignorance.

Atheism and naturalistic philosophy isn't a worldview that can be sustained in ambiguity. For it to be a reasonable worldview it needs to be solidly based upon facts, not improbable suppositions. Now if you're willing to be reasonable you'd declare yourself to be an agnostic seeking more information in order to reach a decision point. An agnostic is defined as a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality is currently unknown and is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God. The odd part is that you sympathesize with atheism over Christianity yet you do not even comprehend the basic tenets of your professed faith.

But why do I even bother? The debate is already over and the blustering begun.

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited June 07, 2005).]

Angel

Member

Posts: 699
From: The Blissful State Of Me?
Registered: 05-21-2001
*Laughs uncontrollably*
Oh my - HA!
I'm sorry give me a moment, I'm just laughing to hard.
*Laughs all the more*
I'm going to cry this is so, so, ha, ignorant!
Oh my, oh dear, oh gah, this is great.
Honestly here, who do you think you're kidding here children.
CapnStank, please give me some proof of your crazy ideas.
*Laughs on for a bit*
Ha!
Ok, you canít even get your facts strait, and I quote:
No offence but really look at the "original sin" they took a fruit of many.
A fruit of many? Ha!
Oh and this one is great too:
Besides these arguments are more of a passtime for me.
*Laughs*
Oh, I canít stop laughing here man. A pastime? You didnít even argue the point Gump made. There is no argument. Youíre just simply brushing off the facts because you donít have a single shred of intelligence about the subject matter here. If this is an argument, the point isnít to convert you, the point is for your silly self to convert us.
I mean really, if your so right, why donít you correct us with your facts and unchallenged wisdom here.
Oh my, I need to take a brake from this for a bit, Iím just laughing to much.

To Gump:
Thanks for having me read that post man. I havenít laughed this hard in a year.

Nomad
Member

Posts: 63
From:
Registered: 06-29-2004
Take it easy, people. As much fun as insult-fests are, that isn't what we need here.

As for this issue of "intelligent design", it should be understood that that is in no way synonomous with what happened in the Bible. It is a theory, more on the same level as evolution itself. If anyone wants my own opinion of it, just ask, but be ready for my own insult-fest.

As for Capn Stank's challenge for us to defend "the ultimate reason that [we] believe in Christianity and God":

I believe it because it's the truth. Assuming you're bearing with me, I recognize that because I can't even live up to my own standards, let alone to those of the One who holds the original blueprints. He has no logical reason not to fry us. But as Cheese once mentioned, none of us would serve a "god" that would be able to condemn all people without feeling anything. The God of Creation, however, has through all of history displayed His mercy to His people, mostly by presenting His Son as a sacrifice to endure our punishment for us. And He did not do this so that we can idly while the hours away, waiting around to die and go to heaven; rather, it is to free us to live as He always wanted us to. I have always been disappointed with myself, and generally pessimistic, but the certainty I have that God is calling us all to something greater, and paving the road Himself with that sacrifice, is what has kept me going.

Romans 1:16 - "I am not ashamed of the gospel because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes..."

I was trying to be honest, but brief. I hope that helps, once again just ask if you'd like clarification.

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
You're definitely correct that ID doesn't attempt to provide an overall explanation (it's focus at this time is fairly narrow) and thus doesn't have to be regarded as sharing the same status as the Bible. Advocates can range from Theistic Evolutionists of no particular religion (Antony Flew for example) to Christian Creationists to people of other religions. According to a recent scientific poll over 60% (margin of error of 3%) of doctors support ID. According to Georgia State university, and reported on by the NY Times, over 40% of scientists believe the Bible literally and another 40% have beliefs that automatically include them as supporting ID in a general sense (though they might not have any vested interest in the topic themselves). The only worldview ID is completely incompatible with is the religion of secular humanism/atheism (though that can get a bit murky with the advocates of directed panspermia).

Now there are people who call themselves Christians who reject ID and instead believe God "front-loaded" His design of the universe with natural laws that would inevitably lead to Man, at which point these creatures would be imbued with His spirit. Then there is the idea of front-loading biology with the supercell hypothesis or the latent library hypothesis, but those are compatible with ID. I'm guessing one of those is your belief, Nomad?

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited June 08, 2005).]

Nomad
Member

Posts: 63
From:
Registered: 06-29-2004
Gump:

I see the Biblical creation account as literal: six days, God directly creating everything. I think it's John 1:3 that mentions that nothing was made without Him (it's in that vicinity, anyway).

I generally have agreed with the way www.answersingenesis.org , www.khouse.org , and www.icr.org have explained how scientific observations are consistent with literal six-day creation. I think there are other threads for this topic, so maybe we should continue on one of those.

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Ah, I see. You're negative about Intelligent Design because it's compatible with Darwinism in that it doesn't inherently preclude macro-evolution completely.
Miche

Junior Member

Posts: 1
From: Naples, Florida, USA
Registered: 08-31-2004
But the problem arises if the Bible inherently precludes macro-evolution...completely.
CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Bleh evolution and ID both don't really affect our daily lives beyond these debates, unless you make it your life's work to argue them. And there's not even a cookie at the finish line.

Seriously we don't give a **** about converting you. I don't look at ppl and wonder how their after-life will be, because I don't believe in one. You can do great things with or without religion. So I see it as an unecessary waste of time that has resulted in much bloodshed, but if all the kids are being taught it (and promised a good reward for sticking to it) I suppose it'll be awhile before it's gone.

The majority of people live only to settle down and raise a successful family. Their children will probably grow up to do the same. And down the line we go. If they change nothing (except add a few more idiotic offspring before taking their leave) they will be forgotten. If you don't do anything, you may as well have not existed. Then religion steps in trying to add purpose to everyone's life, even if they have no potential. I hate how everything is slowed down to the pace of the stupidest idiots, Christ if someone is a murderer they should be shot, all this crap about second and third chances. Mentally and physically disabled people are cool because they don't really have a choice, but damn if it doesn't suck to see how much money is wasted on 'normal' people who COULD do stuff but are too lazy/stupid.

We need like robots or something in charge of funds, government is just owned by human flaws, everytime you hear about some mf'r directing funds into his bank instead of to healthcare or something, you just wanna paradrop a few dozen raptor assassins on to his front lawn in time for the suppertime news. Maybe just once, cause then the others would learn from the example. Science should be unrestricted as long as it's not just idiots in labcoats spraying crap on animals, and not for intentionally dangerous reasons. Omg, not stem cell research! That embryo could have a soul! *raptors deployed*

So maybe current events are where it's at. Evolution Vs. ID is cool, it's good to know what the other side thinks even if we don't agree... but let's all focus on the important thing at hand: Forming an army of ruthless but trustworthy raptors to keep the peace and make all the noobs of the world stfu. Oh yeah and to take soap operas off the air, they promote idiocy. Waste of time and energy. If time exists... isn't it just a measurement of motion or something, how can it be a dimension, cause then a one-dimensional object in time would just have age, but no size... how does that work.

Maybe I gave Mr. Ambiguous Gender avatar some good material, laughter is the best medicine you know. Chortle it up man, it's not insulting in the least.

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Ok time for my quick skim reply. I'm tired and just finished work, I'm on because I'm lining up a massive gathering at my place tomorrow.

Gump didn't you say you were done with this topic? Stop posting your stuff here that I care not to read. You don't pose much of your own opinion rather the works of other people. Just because we don't do the same it does not make our opinions meaningless.

Angel, le noob. The point of this is to add to the discussion, not put pointless actions in *'s. About the 2 things that made my comments so funny:
...fruit of many:
-An apple(I think) from a tree ... tree's produce more than one apple and reproduce them each season. How is that comical?
...arguements=passtime:
-What do you think I'm doing right now. I'm waiting for replys from friends as I PASS THE TIME here.

Clinto:
-Wow you actually impressed me there. Although you said it yourself that you cannot directly answer the question you did it without posting a bunch of BS URLs and put your own input in it. No sarcasm included (which I cannot say for myself).

Now the one main thing I got out of your reply is that God definatly intended the whole forbidden fruit as an excuse. Without reason to believe and maintain faith in him people would do just the opposite. Mankind believes they owe him so the work to gain his "love" or "trust." Well that's basically as I see it.

Now for the customary closing whine... just because one doesn't possess certain credentials it doesn't mean there input is meaningless. If Cheese nor I can quote a fricken scientist it does not exclude our argument from the topic. Don't fix yourself on the idea that a diploma means authority.
Hmmm I find it somewhat amazing that two of the biggest Topics on this website have been lead by Cheese and I. Not an active community is it?

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

[This message has been edited by CapnStank (edited June 09, 2005).]

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
Mankind believes they owe him so the work to gain his "love" or "trust." Well that's basically as I see it.

If God is indeed our Creator then we do owe Him everything we are, and everything that we hope to be. But Christianity doesn't work that way. We don't have to work to earn His love, He loves us regardless of what we do. Just as any parent in his\her right mind loves their child but God loves us even more so. But also, love requires discipline. If you die and go to hell then it's your fault. God has made Himself known. Weather it be through the Bible, through history or even through the many lives of true believers today. If you choose to not even consider the Gospel because you don't want to or because don't have the time, then that is your own fault.

quote:
Hmmm I find it somewhat amazing that two of the biggest Topics on this website have been lead by Cheese and I. Not an active community is it?

I'd find it amazing if the topics actually consisted of discussion where hearing and learning actually took place. But that is not the case. As far as I am concerned this Topic "Quick Question" ended several posts ago. The "quick question" was answered by many, however it was not accepted, and much bickering has since followed.

And don't even ask why I'm still posting. If I see a question about God then I'll answer it mate... even if I think that you'll reject it.

------------------
If I were a drummer I would use a cymbal.
If I were a writer I would use a pencil.
I would use my voice if I were a singer.
No matter who or what we are we must praise.

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
If you can see the future and love your subjects there is no need for pain. Jailtime on Earth prevents people from committing more crimes against society. Hell exists for the sole purpose of pain?

Our emotions can be controlled to the point where we would desire no Heaven and fear no Hell. You may feel spiritual but the feelings themselves are not.

Multiple religions create imaginary differences between humans. A world free of spiritual beliefs would be much simpler.

*edit*
Gump what I meant by my question about your designers returning to add new species was (for an example) like, dinosaurs are older than us... if that counts as a "source for my assertations".

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited June 09, 2005).]

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
I know the "Quick Question" was answered/debated numerous posts ago but it's obvious that many other discussions branched off of it. There is no point in going: "Dude this branch is discussed in <THIS> topic." This is obviously a very informal debate where things branch off from place to place.

I'm kind of amazed that these didn't turn into all out war either. As far as I'm concerned it's been quite civil, as for the name calling... comical.

The one on-topic thing I want to address here is that many times you people comment on us (Cheese and I) not WANTING to believe. I can't speak for Cheese but I know for one if something came and slapped me in the face proving unquestionable proof of religion being the right path I'd accept it. So far I havn't seen it so don't tell me what I am willing or not willing to do.

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
Howdy Capn'.

Thanks for the compliment. It's an issue that I take pretty seriously, and I firmly believe that if Christianity isn't true, then I need to be spending my time somewhere else.

Regarding my own beliefs, if I'm sick, please help cure me. I hope I'm not too proud to change my beliefs when shown wrong. So that said, I really appreciate your hard questions -- it's a good test of the soundness of my thinking, and it's nice to get feedback from someone who doesn't necessarily agree with me out of reflex.

quote:
Now the one main thing I got out of your reply is that God definatly intended the whole forbidden fruit as an excuse. Without reason to believe and maintain faith in him people would do just the opposite. Mankind believes they owe him so the work to gain his "love" or "trust." Well that's basically as I see it.

Well, I suppose, in a way, we do owe Him. It's not like I made myself, y'know?

And "an excuse" -- I suppose it could be looked at that way, though I don't look at it so much as an excuse as much as I think it's a mechanism for God's purposes.

It's not like God sadistically enjoys our pain and suffering -- just as a father doesn't sadistically enjoy it when he makes his kid get back on the bicycle after he falls off the first time. Just like how you can't help a moth out of its cocoon, or deny a baby chicken its chance to hatch itself out of an egg. Without the struggle, without the fight, without the pain, it's just not the same.

One of the things that really made an impact in my thinking was a friend who commented in a discussion about this very question. She said something to the effect of, "Well I don't know how to answer this question fully, but I know that God is good, He created everything, and He had a good reason for it. That means, that since God created evil (which somehow He did), then He must have had a good reason for it".

As to what God's good reason for allowing such horrible things to happen? I don't know, but I know that God has a purpose in it all, and that He doesn't enjoy anyone who perishes. God doesn't take pleasure in the act of causing calamity and distress, but I can take confidence in knowing that it's for a good reason.

I hope that's not too much rambling, but it's a tough issue, and a good one to think about. I wouldn't mind talking about this more in the future.

It's easy to criticize these hard points that we've been dealing with, but when juxtaposed with some of the (in my view) insurmountable logical difficulties with things like Atheism, I think it would take more faith on my part to believe in that.

quote:
Hmmm I find it somewhat amazing that two of the biggest Topics on this website have been lead by Cheese and I. Not an active community is it?

No, but sometimes I like it this way. That means I can read and reply to most every post. But yeah, it's an interesting thing to note.

quote:
I'm tired and just finished work, I'm on because I'm lining up a massive gathering at my place tomorrow.

Didn't you say in one post that "you seem like a jerk sometimes on here, but in real life, once people get to know you, it's bbq and burgers on the weekends at your place"? Or was that Cheese?

Thanks for your discussion!

Respectfully,
clint

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http://www.includingjudas.com/christiangame.html

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Hahaha yeah that was me. I was just joking around because about once a week I have a bunch of my buds over for some random odd meal thing at lunch. Most of the people are pals from a band I play in but everyone is welcome. Either way today's menu was perogies and sausage, we all definately felt sick after that so it wasn't a good plan. Food ranges from massive pot-luck Kraft Dinner to BBQ to tacos. I must say that my favorite was hot wings.

My main point with that whole comment originally is that I definately seem like a jerk on here because I don't really care what your impressions of me are.

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Well, one thing is for sure, it seems like Cheese and Capn have wasted a lot of their time. If they have neither learned anything, nor gained anything in their beliefs, than it was fruitless.

It's not faith if you have full complete proof.

Besides, there is never anything such as full complete proof, there never will be until we attain all the knowledge that there is to know.

The only reason you guys had the longest topics is because you went on talking about nothing and not even acknowledging other peoples comments. Never once have we totally dismissed what you've said.

If you aren't willing to read people's posts, than you shouldn't post, seems simple to me.

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The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
You seem angered or something Max... it really wasn't much wasted time that wouldn't have been used elsewhere with just as little meaning. I know I only spend my time on here when I'm on MSN or a game or something. Look at it this way I could've questioned, whined, and enjoyed myself here or I could've stared at a spot on my wall.

The only thing I see in your post is what seems like you being disgruntled. If this topic pissed you off to that extent why did you continue to read and argue about it? You make it seem like we are the dumber party in this but actually look at your argument.

As for the whole not reading Gump's text-belch I've done nothing wrong. Get this through your skull: I don't care how many sources he can site! I got the run down from Cheese and as I hear it unless we possess credentials we don't have meaningful opinion. And he definately took my award for the least opinion in the most words.

And for you Max? Well I personally must say that I carry even less respect for you than I did at the begining of the topic. Instead of backing your beliefs you seem to look for the little insignificant things in our posts in an attempt to cut us down. At least Cheese and I put personal opinion into the matter while you just sat there with PMS or something. You say that we learned nothing... I learned how many of you blindly follow your religion only because you fear the possibility of eternal damnation. I learned that many of you are too proud of yourselves that you wont even attempt to look at religion from a different perspective.

It's obvious that this thread has deteriorated from its original cause so unless there's something that I feel I have to personally post about I wont be back on this thread. I probably will read future posts here and I hope not so see personal attacks from any of you oafs.

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Jesus is f'ing metal!

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
I'm not sure how many of you know this, so I'll just comment:

In Capn's defense, Gump's post was not an original work. He was quoting another article in fact:
Google Search

It appears that it came from a 2005 American Spectator article written by Dan Peterson (it might have been nicer if there were sources cited in Gump's post).

If Gump had written it just for this conversation, then it could certainly be considered rude for CapnStank to not read the article. However, since he just copy/pasted it, it would have been easier for him to just post a link and kindly ask Capn and others to read it at their leisure.

Some might consider such a long copy/paste to be "flooding".

I didn't want to take the time to read the article completely myself, so I for one can understand why Capn wouldn't read the article.

With that said, I really do think that it might be good for Capn and others to read some ID evidence, (even the article that Gump copied -- at first skim it looks good).

Mostly, I hope what Capn and others would get out of that part of the conversation is just that ID is in fact a tenable and respectable scientific position. Hugh Ross is a great example of a scientist (I believe he's an astrophysicist) can come to know God and Christ through studying creation.

I just don't want everyone to think that Capn was really rude for not reading Gump's painstakingly written and researched note.

And Capn, I hope you don't view all of these guys as being ones who "blindly follow [their] religion only because [they] fear the possibility of eternal damnation" -- they have heard some really good points for intelligent design, and as of yet, they haven't heard anything that should cause them to think otherwise.

Also, many of them are still on their parent's faith -- you can't expect people to know from childhood exactly why they believe what they believe -- but people that they love and trust believe these things whole-heartedly, and their trust is in them. It wasn't until I was almost in my twenties that I actually considered these hard questions for myself and sought out truth on my own apart from what I had been brought up with.

I can understand your frustration with hypocrisy though, and I feel it too. As much as I criticize such things though, I know that I am hypocritic in my own life, so I can't be too hard on them for fear of being the kettle who is dissing the pot.

Please understand that there are very good reasons to believe these things, and as hard of a time as we have had with all of the hard and baiting questions you have asked us, I would like to put you and Cheese in the hot-seat and have you defend your beliefs -- to see you answer some of our questions with honesty and sincerity. When juxtaposed with other worldviews, the tough points about Christianity seem pretty minor.

Even if we don't discuss your worldview, I would love to discuss with you guys the historical event of the bodily resurrection of this guy named Jesus of Nazareth who lived about 2000 years ago. If you can show me that it most likely did not happen, then you'll have won your case, and I'll admit that you're probably right.

Respectfully,
clint

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http://www.includingjudas.com/christiangame.html

CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
quote:
As for the free-will Vs. limited-will... If you're saying that being forced to live in Eden and be good and have fun is a bad thing, you so craaazy.

Calling us crazy won't make you correct . Try to justify your point instead of name calling.

quote:
Omg, not stem cell research! That embryo could have a soul!

LOL. I am against the killing of humans in general, regardless of whether or not we have souls. True, the possible existence of a soul makes my point stronger, but it's not required for my point to be valid.

I hate to say this to you, but so far, you've been knocking down lots of straw men on the abortion issue!

quote:
Hell exists for the sole purpose of pain?

Hell is the absense of God. If we reject him, then we will eventually be completely severed from his presence, and we will be without the benefits he gives us.

"God cannot give us a happiness and peace apart from Himself because it is not there. There is no such thing." --C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

quote:
Multiple religions create imaginary differences between humans.

That's only true if the spiritual realm does not exist .

------------------
6 "This is what the LORD says --
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to comeó
yes, let him foretell what will come.

8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." -- Isaiah 44:6-8, NIV

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Hmm Max we're replying to each other. So I guess I do read posts. Wow.

Hahaha Gump...

Hey Cobra I actually justified my point in that same sentence. Cause paradise is good.
Oh and please tell me about the "lots of straw men" I'm using.
So where'd hell come from? This is different from "does evil exist?" because you think hell is a place, and there's a system that will take you there. So it was created for the sole purpose of pain?

Oh and multiple religions create imaginary differences between humans regardless of whether or not a spiritual realm exists. We could create fifty new religions just to divide everyone a bit more and your spiritual realm would have nothing to do with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the winking-smiley supposed to be used if you say something witty or sarcastic?


CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
quote:
Hey Cobra I actually justified my point in that same sentence. Cause paradise is good.

Yeah, but you don't have any choices. So - is it really good?

quote:
Oh and please tell me about the "lots of straw men" I'm using.

You have yet to present an accurate picture of what I believe about why I think abortion is wrong. You're just throwing random guesses around. So far, all your guesses have missed.

In short, you're trying to knock down our beliefs on the subject of abortion without even knowing what we believe.

It's quite amusing seeing you poke around in the dark on a subject, without so much as bothering to get our point of view .

quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the winking-smiley supposed to be used if you say something witty or sarcastic?

Maybe, maybe not .

------------------
6 "This is what the LORD says --
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to comeó
yes, let him foretell what will come.

8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." -- Isaiah 44:6-8, NIV

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Well, you guys can diss at us all you want, but seriously, I'm not mad at all. I find what your reply to be quite humorous, as you accuse me of not backing any of my arguements, and you don't do so either, instead you attack one of us. It seems to be the stereotypical bully action. If you can't prove your point, attack the others. I guess that's how the world works, eh?

I've never blindly followed anything since I developed the ability to reason.

I've graduated from my parent's religion to mine, it just happens to be the same.

Well we'll all look back on this and laugh, 'cus it is really funny! I'm glad it is beneficial to me, 'cus it seals my beliefs.

So, once again, Capn and Cheese, thank you sincerely from the bottom of my heart and soul, oh, by the way, Jesus is there too and he says "Hi"

------------------
The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Being forced to live in paradise would indeed be good. It's like waking up on a Saturday morning, get a phonecall from God "Hey your job today is to have fun and generally do whatever you want!"

But it seems you guys believe the system is like "Oooh but there's this tree in the front yard, if you eat its fruit you will screw over yourself and all following generations... but since I like you, you still get a choice." "True, true." *hangs up*
*ring ring*
"Hey who's th-" "WAZAAAAAA" "ZAAAAA" "AAAA" "Sup, talking snake?" "Do it." "Huh?" "Eat the fruit man it's awesome!" "Nah I'm not supposed to dude." But then yeah you know how it ends, God is like wtf lol n00b tries to bs me harshly with like one guy, I'm like lol LOCKDOWN PSI STORM biatch gg no re

Man I'm talking like stem cell research, but yeah abortion is sweet too, dead fetuses are our nation's greatest resource, well not here in Canada where stuff is illegal . Except drugs . Imo the research should be allowed and the drugs sho uldn't be, but hey if people can't quit a substance to save their own skins, let's pump in the tax dollars for em (sarcasm) .

So no I'm not trying to knock your beliefs on abortion just by being for it...

Max, I haven't started dissing yet, except for "sausage". The lack of censorship on MSN is the main reason I turned down your IM offer... it'd be only too tempting. It's impossible for us to accuse you of not backing up your arguments since you don't contribute anything to begin with. OH.

Basically all of your messages are "Hey you're wasting your time but I'm enjoying it because I know I'm right!" Maybe you'd enjoy it more without the use of a keyboard. I know I would... (just kidding man your stuff is incredibly deep and insightful).

[This message has been edited by CheeseStorm (edited June 13, 2005).]

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
sure

------------------
The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
Everyone has sinned, sinning isn't doing a crime by society's standards, sin is ANY crime against GOD. So not believing God is sin in itself.
CobraA1

Member

Posts: 926
From: MN
Registered: 02-19-2001
quote:
Man I'm talking like stem cell research, but yeah abortion is sweet too, dead fetuses are our nation's greatest resource, well not here in Canada where stuff is illegal .

As you may recall, it's using aborted fetuses that raises all the issues, so yes, stem cell research is essentially a form of the abortion issue.

And IMHO the issue stems from whether or not it's ethical to kill a fetus. After all, it's unethical to kill a full grown human, why is a fetus any different?

------------------
6 "This is what the LORD says --
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.

7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to comeó
yes, let him foretell what will come.

8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." -- Isaiah 44:6-8, NIV

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
The parents are probably noobs, even if their kid will be a noob, it's pretty harsh for the lil noob to be raised by big noobs. Aka stupid people shouldn't have kids anyway. Not saying that everyone who's had an abortion is stupid, but an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure or however the saying goes.

Stem cell research could do much good if given the chance.

Klown

Member

Posts: 78
From: baraga, mi , united states of america
Registered: 11-10-2004
This has been a very interesting , insightful and hillarious thread to read.

Yet I'll say my two cents and get shunned even farther.

Cant member who said it and to lazy to scroll through the whole thread to find it. Jesus isnt GOD. Jesus is the Christ, son of GOD. Please dont mix them up.

I am not afraid of passing on. Death comes us all and at times, yes I am afraid of it, like I am when I go to the doctors office. Yet I welcome Death and what maybe/may not be waiting for me on the other side. I'm not like any other christian/believer you have seen here or any where else. To give you an example, go back and read every one of my post's in the war thread or abortion thread. Or just be kind and read what I have to say here.

I dont take the bible literally. We all read things and interpet them how "WE" see fit. History books are a sham. History is and always will be written by the "Winner".

Yes I believe God know's all, from past to present to future. As for the Adam & Eve debate. God created man kind with free will and option to choose. Which condemned man kind. We all have the option to believe in God. Yet it's up to everyone to "Choose" to believe in God and accept God for what he is and has done. And I'm still trying to figure out what Mankind and specially the church has against women.

Yes there are angels. I seen them before. In Detroit to be exact while the Tigers was playing.Aint they from Anihiem California? (sorry i had to toss that one in there)

Isnt it a wonder how the majority of Christians and believers are in the prisons and on Death Row?

No one can answer your real question tho. No one can actually prove there is a God whose only son Jesus died on this dirtball twice. Once for our sins so we all can be saved. No no one can prove the Bible is right and true and unedited by man to put in their own beliefs and thoughts and ways down line. I can not prove that by me being Christian, that I am putting faith and belief into the right God. I mean who is to say Allah isnt the one and true god?

Yet, Cheese and Stank. You two are by far the most inteligent Athiest's I have ever met that have actually posed good questions that arent rehashed and using an Open Mind. Which I'm sad to say that some here dont do. Pose questions or answer with an open mind.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Riiiighto.
CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Yeah I'm not going to lie here, these debates/arguments/conversations/bi*ch-fests have been a good time. I had fun, whether or not we had impact on either side's views is irrelevent. Basically what I've learned from here is better ways to debate a religious person. I know quite a few religious people (most are my friends) but some of them, whent he topic arrises will fight to the death that their view is right, and only their view is right.

------------------
So are all Christians this annoying or did something attract them all to this corner of the internet?

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
quote:
Jesus isnt GOD. Jesus is the Christ, son of GOD. Please dont mix them up.

I'm not sure if you are quoting someone else? But if you are saying that then I must say that Jesus did say that He was God many times. He is the Son of God. But He is still God. God existing as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a concept that we can not totally understand with our finite minds.

You said that you like to interpret the Bible how you want to. Might I suggest something new? Try reading it literally and letting it say what it says. Read it like you read other books. And ask God to give you an understanding of His Word...


------------------
I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited August 15, 2005).]

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Caveat: Read it literally WITH the context and historical setting in mind and use reading comprehension (not to mention, common sense) when a section is using poetry and symbolic meaning.
CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
Uh, can we not start this up again, I got too many things on my hands to get into this.

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Hahaha I got my own forums, nuts to this place. (Although I will stop by)

bennythebear

Member

Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
fruitless and vain...this thread should be locked.

------------------
proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Is it true that down there in America your new chocolate bar is called "Take 5"? Up here it's called "Max 5".

Oh yeah and to be closer on topic, I watched that Passion of the Christ show, so is that little kid-monster that Satan carries around like supposed to represent a new generation of evil or something?

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
Is it true that down there in America your new chocolate bar is called "Take 5"? Up here it's called "Max 5".

Oh yeah and to be closer on topic, I watched that Passion of the Christ show, so is that little kid-monster that Satan carries around like supposed to represent a new generation of evil or something?


Yeh i was wandering what that was. Maybe the anti-christ?

--D-SIPL

------------------
"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler

firemaker103

Member

Posts: 643
From:
Registered: 07-13-2005
Doing a quick skim of this, and me not usually replying to these kind of threads, I have some points for you

So somebody said you can be the worst perso never(EG: Kill everyone in the world besides you) and then at the last second accept Christ. He goes to Heaven? I think not.

Jesus g-d or not? If he is, and you don't believe he is, but believe in g-d, what does that make you?

See, according to the jewish religion, everyone goes to heaven eventually. Hell exists to punish for a time for a sin. Most time you can go for (a jew)is a year. Others, year and a half. BUT, that is if you are bar/bat mitzvah'd do you get one year max. ( And trust what a hell of a year that would be.[/bad-pun])

Then, we'd wind up where we were before. Have a bar/bat mitzvah, do the worst thing ever possible, and only go to hell for a year...

Me, I believe you can get 2 years, tops. But if you do something really bad, you get longer.

hmm. my first "serious" post.

------------------
"Be nice to the nerds because later on, you'll be working for them" - Bill Gates

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
Interesting, now is what you just said written somewhere concrete?

------------------

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Exactly, I don't get it either.

*plants trees, helps the homeless, feeds the starving*
"Hmm, I don't know how the universe began, could be a God, I dunno."
*gets hit by a bus*
"HUMANS BETRAYED GOD! BURN FOR YOUR SINS BAHAHA! THOSE GOOD DEEDS ARE NOTHING COMPARED TO BELIEVING IN JESUS! RAAARGH!" (agents of Hell use Caps Lock)

*eats 95 people*
"Hmm, what a wicked life I've had. Jesus, thanks for dying for me. Sorry about BBQ'ing those noobs."
*gets hit by a bus*
"Who can help me eat this ICE CREAM MOUNTAIN?!"

*sweet music comes on*

Lava
Member

Posts: 1905
From:
Registered: 01-26-2005
I believe someone can be saved if have done horrible things and they are sincerely sorry (to the God of the Bible) for what they have done before they die, example; the thief on the cross.

But that's a common, misguided mindset of today, the people who follow this mindset seem to lean on how the thief was ultimately reconciled, that they will sin and on the last minute become a Christian and repent of their sins before they die. Now I am not judging people, I am just stating a fact of the thinking of some people. But that mindset is unstable, you can die at any given moment of time, you know how many people feel they haven't reconciled bad blood with a loved one? or never said good bye? If people put off God's conviction it will cost them their soul, I know people who follow this kind of thinking, and it breaks my heart. Don't lean on putting off God till the last minute.

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[This message has been edited by lava (edited February 04, 2006).]

bennythebear

Member

Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
firemaker...do you read the bible any?

------------------
proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
Hi all, who want to know the truth.

Even some one would have done awfull sins he can be still saved, because Jesus forgives. And that's called God's grace. You see it is not our own works that can cover our errors and it's not our own good will that makes good things happen, you see God is the light of men. If there wouldnt be God people would only sin - it would be total darkness.

This is what I'm talking about:

Joh 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. - 2 The same was in the beginning with God. - 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. - 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. - 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. - 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. - 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. - 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. - 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. - 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. - 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: - 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

buddboy

Member

Posts: 2220
From: New Albany, Indiana, U.S.
Registered: 10-08-2004
wow lol that was a good question... lol... it's kinda cool how many replies it's spouted... lol... long ones too!! i wish i could have been there when it started so i could be part of it lol...

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In the stock market, you must buy high and sell low...Wait! That's not right!
--------------
Yes, I can be intelligent at times!!

vincent

Member

Posts: 129
From: Amersfoort, the Netherlands
Registered: 12-23-2002
Hmm.. I must be seen as a heretic for saying this, but I don't believe in heaven and hell as being so earthy as you, I also don't believe judgement is as black and white as you say. I kinda sympathize with CheeseStorm, though I'm sure he doesn't need it.

I think many people systamatize Chrisitanity too much... they like to put it in cause-effect, 'shalls and shall-nots'. We discard the fact that we are created in Gods image, and that we are not only rational beings, but also relational beings. I think the reality is much less black and white as we think. I believe an unborn child that dies is saved, as I believe more people who we say will not be saved, are saved, and many that we think are saved, will not be saved. Its not a question of rules.

[This message has been edited by vincent (edited February 06, 2006).]

bennythebear

Member

Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
mercy and grace kind of work outside of laws and judgement, or despite of them maybe. i see everything as right or wrong, but i also know that God's mercy is why we(assuming you believe in Christ) don't have to face the second death. murder is always murder, adultery is always adultery, and stealing is always stealing. whether you do any of those things to have money to feed your family, or to buy drugs, it's still the same sin. i think people think i'm condemning everyone when i "tell it like it is", i'm just telling the truth. you have to know you're doing wrong in order to repent(turn away from) of your sins, and you definately can't confess your sins to God if you don't know your sinning.

------------------
proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

proverbs 25:7
open rebuke is better than secret love.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

vincent

Member

Posts: 129
From: Amersfoort, the Netherlands
Registered: 12-23-2002
Alright, I do believe in a universal right and wrong, but how can you say to a mother who just lost her unborn child that that child is in hell?

[This message has been edited by vincent (edited February 06, 2006).]

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
All are imperfect and on the road to destruction because of God's mercy it has please Him to show mercy on some. It is God who saves us -- we don't save ourselves. So if God saves any who die (unborn children included), it is according to His good pleasure and will. God may save some, he may not, but we can take rest in knowing that God is just, and that all things will work according to His plan.

God doesn't get surprised -- He's got it all laid out, and I have confidence in knowing that His ways are best.

--clint

vincent

Member

Posts: 129
From: Amersfoort, the Netherlands
Registered: 12-23-2002
quote:
Originally posted by HanClinto:
All are imperfect and on the road to destruction because of God's mercy it has please Him to show mercy on some. It is God who saves us -- we don't save ourselves. So if God saves any who die (unborn children included), it is according to His good pleasure and will. God may save some, he may not, but we can take rest in knowing that God is just, and that all things will work according to His plan.

God doesn't get surprised -- He's got it all laid out, and I have confidence in knowing that His ways are best.

--clint


I agree with you. I just think people should not be so hard on saying who is going to go to hell, because they don't know. Reading this discussion I get the idea that some think they can based on some biblical forumula.

Jari

Member

Posts: 1471
From: Helsinki, Finland
Registered: 03-11-2005
quote:
Originally posted by vincent:
I agree with you. I just think people should not be so hard on saying who is going to go to hell, because they don't know. Reading this discussion I get the idea that some think they can based on some biblical forumula.

I agree, God is only judge, the God's word is our judge at the last day and we shouldnt think about who goes to hell and who doesnt (Rom 10:6). Of course we should see when some one is not saved in order to help them thefore do God's will.
What comes to babies, I believe they go to Heaven. They havent chosen to do evil yet because obviously the havent made any kind of decisions yet.
some churches baptise babies so that they would be saved, but baptism is for the repenting not for some one who doesnt know the difference between good and evil, yet.

This is what king David said when he's son had died:
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

God is just.

I think churches and denominations mess up things when they try to figure the formulas how can one be saved and all they do is depate about doctrines (Rom 1:22). Man fails to understand God when he leans to hes own understanding (Pro 3:5) and forms his own

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.


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Mat 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)

[This message has been edited by jari (edited February 06, 2006).]

HanClinto

Administrator

Posts: 1828
From: Indiana
Registered: 10-11-2004
quote:
Originally posted by CheeseStorm:
So if someone is good ...

A more succinct answer to this longer discussion:

quote:
Matt 19:16-17:
And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"

And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good;"


Simply saying, noone is good, so the original question is a little misleading.

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited February 06, 2006).]

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
basically, just because someone is good by yours, mine or bob's definition doesn't really count. Only the one who is actually doing the judging, aka God.

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"Patience, my good citizen, patience. It's bad enough to rob a man of his dream"
-Sydney Carton, Tale of Two Cities
Soterion Studios

CapnStank

Member

Posts: 214
From: Sask, Canada
Registered: 12-16-2004
You honestly wanted to resurect this old beast of a topic?

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"The only people on Earth who do not see Christ and His teachings as nonviolent are Christians". - Mahatma Gandhi

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Resurrect? The points have already been made.
firemaker103

Member

Posts: 643
From:
Registered: 07-13-2005
Nevermind..

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"Be nice to the nerds because later on, you'll be working for them" - Bill Gates

[This message has been edited by firemaker103 (edited February 07, 2006).]