also, do you think there are certain 'types' of violence that are acceptable? for instance, as a Christian, would you play a game that had lots of shooting demons, not like doom3 or anything, but from a Christian stand point? Of course we know that demons are spirts and you cant actually kill them with physical weapons but with spirtial weapons which come from the word of God.... but for gaming purposes, thats besides the point i'm thinking of making a chirstian game based on the book of revolation, kinda a pre/post rapture story. somewhat like the left behind books, but not based on that.

anyways, what are your guy's views on this subject?

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~~~boogie woogie woogie~~~

Personaly, I am ok with game 'fighting' if in the right context. I would probably not call it violence and would reserve that word for 'GTA like' games (which I have discussed with several games players I know). As you have said, you can discern the difference between GTA like violence and other kinds of in game 'violence'. So, you are obviously aware of the possible dangers which probably means you are in a good place to try and make a christian games with 'violence' (fighting) in it.

My advice, start the game and see where it leads. Listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and if you feel the game is becoming inappriopiate, have the strength and courage to stop the game or change its mechanics. Remember, you can not steer a stationary car! It is often easier to know the way once you are moving, knowing that you are assured of your Fathers love, understanding and forgiveness if required.

God Bless,
Rhy

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I dont like siggys. They are to hard to think up :(

quote:

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Originally posted by Rhyolite:
Its a difficult subject and I think there are many different opinions amongst Christians - which is actualy ok. I consider the writings of Paul concerning what can and cannot be eaten, and he basicaly suggests that to one man to eat a pig is sin, but to another man it is not sin!! This should never be an excuse to 'do sin' and we should also remember that just because it is not sin to us we should be mindful that it may be sin to another.

---

quote:

---

Personaly, I am ok with game 'fighting' if in the right context. I would probably not call it violence and would reserve that word for 'GTA like' games (which I have discussed with several games players I know). As you have said, you can discern the difference between GTA like violence and other kinds of in game 'violence'. So, you are obviously aware of the possible dangers which probably means you are in a good place to try and make a christian games with 'violence' (fighting) in it.

---

ok, by 'the right context' you mean? like fighting demons and such? or just a humorus (but not humorus the world knows in these sick, twisted and perverted times) way? and again sin is sin to God.. stealing a stick of gum is just as bad as killing in God's eyes, but i understand what you mean, its the mario vs gta story again.

quote:

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My advice, start the game and see where it leads. Listen to the promptings of the Holy Spirit and if you feel the game is becoming inappriopiate, have the strength and courage to stop the game or change its mechanics. Remember, you can not steer a stationary car! It is often easier to know the way once you are moving, knowing that you are assured of your Fathers love, understanding and forgiveness if required.

God Bless,
Rhy

---

Thanks, that really helps. but you know, there's just that... hmmm... ya know?
i mean, some times if it doesn't seem right, it's prolly not... (in less you know it's from God, and you just don't like it :P but thats another sermon )
but then, there is that... hmm, i can take this story out of the Bible (which is what the game will be based upon (Revolation)) and make it into a virtual reality. i mean, it can't be bad if it came from the bible. but our minds have a way to twist things around and make things pleaserable and take things and make them entertainable, and we forget that this will come to past and it's not a joke... and that's what i would like to get through with this game. that we dont want to miss the rapture. ... ... ... ok, im getting OT again.. but.. heh...

anyways, it's a tough subject. but ya know, we will kick the devil's bootay so, is it wrong to get a little practice in aheada time? :P

anyone else wanna join in?

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~~~boogie woogie woogie~~~

[This message has been edited by bwoogie (edited March 13, 2005).]

First off, I have just read this post and it might sound kinda arogant in places? I think its because I have tried to explain myself clearly and simply, but it might come across in places as arrogance - I dunno? Let me assure you, I am just walking the life of faith and accept I make mistakes and need to allow Gods Spirit to change me I have also laid myself on the line a bit, but I think that was the only way to try and give a fair answer to your questions. And also, I remembered why i stopped posting so much on this forum - if you think it takes a long time to read this post, just consider how long it took me to write!!! Hehe

Well, my opening paragraph is a tricky one! Yes, 'sin is sin' - but what exactly is 'sin'? Is not sin disobedience to God and living a life seperate to Him? We are given many examples of sin which we should heed, but also read the following passages. I am aware they are stepping into a somewhat 'grey area' and different Christians interpret them in different ways. Some say thay only apply to non-sinful acts, and this may be true.

Ultimatly though, I think it 'safer' to treat sin as you have described it and I also generaly live out my Christian life in this way because I accept that I could be wrong and am fully aware that I am very weak and so could delude myself about what is and is not sin. I only provided this thought in an attempt to help you resolve (one way or another) the struggle you presented

Hmmm, not sure if I am making myself clear - its very difficult on a forum. Basicaly, I do not present this as 'truth' as I am not sure myself. However, I went through exactly the same process as yourself concerning games and had to ask myself 'what is sin' and 'is game fighting sin' etc? I feel comfortable with my current views, but also accept that God may change my heart through the working of His Spirit.

One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. (Rom 14:2 NIV)

(1 Cor 10:22-33 NIV) Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he? {23} "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. {24} Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others. {25} Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, {26} for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." {27} If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. {28} But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake-- {29} the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? {30} If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? {31} So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. {32} Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God-- {33} even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

Hmmm, personaly I find most Christian games which go down the line of 'fighting demons' and 'revelation' to be little more than an 'excuse' for a 'christian' fighting game! Ok, your idea may well be very different and its just a generalisation. I will 'try' and explain what I mean, I think there are tow main points.

It really comes down to what is the 'violence' for in the game, what is it achieving? Perhaps it is 'just' to make the game interesting, but then you need to ensure that the 'violence' is acceptable (back to the first part of the post!!).

Second, what do you hope to achieve in making a game based around Revelation? In specific regard to 'violence' and fighting, I see little of that in Revelation. The danger in trying to convert any biblical literature to a game is that we belittle its message or even accidentaly pervert it!

The kingdom of this world is so VERY different to Gods Kingdom, how can we hope to present its truths through a game? Gods Kingdom does have a battle between good and evil, but its not a battle of 'flesh and blood'. But 'I believe' we too easily just convert our ideas of a 'flesh and blood battle' into the 'spirit' realm and substitute humans for angels and demons. I think the clearest picture of this battle can be seen in the book of 'Job'. This may seem odd, but if you have read the whole book right the way through you see a picture of the devils 'challenge' to God's sovereignty and the way this 'battle' is being contested.

Our battle is one of relationship - do we trust, follow and LOVE God as revealed in Jesus Christ? Or do we love our own independance, being in charge of our own destiny (even though we know this to be a lie, it is still a challenge to us - well, at least to me anyway!). How can you possibly convert that into a game!! Hehe

Ok, I have been pretty tough there! I do belive we can make Christian games and I believe they can containg 'fighting' in them - we just have to be very carefull. Currently, my Christian game is on hold because of these reasons. I am presently working on a shamelessly non-christian 'fun combat flight sim' game. Interestingly though, my Christian faith still comes through, especialy in any liasons with other people.

Consider working in a non-christian workplace, doing non-christian work and surrounded by non-christians. This is a BIG challenge. Is it wrong to work in a non-cristian workplace? No, we should consider it our 'neighbourhood' and our work colleagues as our 'neighbours' - after all, most of us spend more of our waking lives at work than at home! God calls us to go out into the 'world' and make disciples. We can be ambassadors of Christ no matter what we 'do'.

I have come to appreciate this myself only recently, and it has come out of the very same challenge to myself that you asked in your first post. I have come to realise that I can be a witness for God in my game making even though I am not making a Christian game! I do have plans for a Christian game in which I 'hope' I have resolved all the issues we are discussing. Of course, I will make mistakes and will look back on it and realise 'hmmm, that was not right' - but then thats part of growing as a Christian and is actually a 'good' sign. And yes, this Christian game involves 'fighting' and perhaps even some 'violence' - lol

God Bless,
Rhyolite (Rob)

"ok, by 'the right context' you mean? like fighting demons and such?"

No, i do not! Hehe, I know you seperated out 'Doom' yourself but I will use it as an example again. If all you are doing is killing demons in a fashion similiar to 'Doom' then its not right! Anyhow, can a biblical demon even be killed? This is where we can get into trouble - in trying to present a Christian story we can so easily present a mis-truth. It is very wrong to think of angels and demons battling each other in this way. We should not even 'attempt' to picture the spiritual realms and how they operate! No, thats a little harsh. Of course we can try and imagine what its like, but I think we should always appreciate our limited ability to grasp the Spiritual realms.

i mean, it can't be bad if it came from the bible. but our minds have a way to twist things around and make things pleaserable and take things and make them entertainable

Absolutly right, this is what I am getting at - why, did i miss this in the first place. I could have just said 'like you said...'. Anyway, creating a Christian game is a tough challenge and personaly I would stay clear of trying to 'convert' parts of the bible to a game. Rather, explore what our faith means and how we can express this through a game. Thats just my view though

C'mon, lets have some other peoples views. Its a tricky subject and we are all bound to make mistakes in this area (although, I think there are some other threads on this subject in the forum??).

Look forward to your (or anyones) reply,
Rhy

I used to play many violent games like hitman,GTA,morrowind etc. And I was making an quite typical violent RPG (like EQ,baldurs gate) until I started to feel bad about it and stopped doing it. From that I realized how blind I was from Satan's lies and started to see better.
The same thing can happen to any one and we must all listen to our heart to see the truth.

And that's why I try to avoid violent games from now on even there are few that I would be interested to play. And most certainly I wont create them.

ok... to my room...

Would you play a game about some of the wars david fought? You must remember, that was very violent and bloody!

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I dont like siggys. They are to hard to think up :(

when i say based on the bible/revolation, i don't mean a recreation of the stories, but just based upon it. using the facts and such as a foundation.

and you're right, we really prolly shouldn't try to convert the bible to a game.

but how do you make a 'christian game'? i mean, sure you got trivia games... but those are pretty boring in my opinion... i mean, they're fine as a 'card' game (trivia cards, i mean), but as a 'video' game... not fun. and i want to make a 3d game...

i dunno. this is all getting kinda... ahhhhhhh.. ya know? hah

maybe i should make a church sim hehe.. it'd be like the sims only, you build a church instead of a house... naah :P

so.. anyways, i guess the question isnt really how violent you can/'t make a christian game... but how to make a christian game that is fun and doesn't offend anyone, esspecially God.

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~~~boogie woogie woogie~~~

Maybe I would play a game about some of the battles David was in, and yes, they were probably much more violent and bloody than many computer games! However, how would such a game further the Kingdom of God? Although the battles were important, they were important because they were part of Gods plan. And why is David important, because he was willing (mostly) to follow God. How would you convey the 'really' important aspects surrounding Davids life? If the game was just about the battles, then it could just be any historic 'battle' game - and worse, if the game portrayed David as some sort of 'Conan the Barbarian' kill everything super-hero, then we would be mis-representing the bible!! I would rather just create (or play) an historic strategy or FPS game.

@Jari

I hear you and applaud you for your courage and strength, it is not an easy thing to give up 'creating' something (your RPG game). Like most Christians I have gone through the same stuggle. Currently I do play such games as you mentioned (with the exception of GTA and Hitman type games). I can not say 'honestly' if this is ok or not, some of the games are certainly not beneficial to me. However, I also think that none of the games are 'bad' for me either (but could be to others, especaily if they had a stonghold over you before becoming a Christian for example). Plus, I openly speak about my beliefs whenever possible to those I meet online in the gaming community (I have been a member of several clans etc). I do not seek to change your decision at all, but I also beleive that we are often too hard on ourselves!! Put it this way, I would NOT seek to bring the gospel to people in a strip club - I am WAY too weak in that area! But I feel my games playing is not such a dominant stronghold in my life, but is recreational. Yeah sure, I stay up too late at night sometimes playing a game and sometimes I neglect my family because I 'just need to finish this level'. But I correct myself afterwards and God helps me to grow and mature.

@bwoogie

Well, don't worry too much about offending people. Most things offend someone somewhere! Jesus often offended people Hmmm, not offending God - thats difficult. Why? Because we are all sinners! What I mean is this, we will never be perfect here on Earth, so don't try to be perfect (or make a perfect game). I do NOT mean to forget about obeying God, serving him and trying to become more like Jesus. We should continualy look to grow in maturity and faith, but it is a 'growth'. I no longer presume that I have (or can find) all the 'answers' to make the 'perfect' Christian game. I have had to accept that God works 'through' our (my) weaknesses.

Yeah, I know that 'ahhhhh' feeling. But thats kinda my point, try and have a bit of fun too. Don't let the 'ahhhhh' cripple you and stop you doing 'something'. Even a 'bad' Christian game is probably better than no Christian game (unless it presents a big mis-truth or such).

Personaly, I find computer games which involve battles and fighting fun. However, I can not play games like GTA or Hitman because they are too close to reality yet present a completly wrong moral code. Oddly, I can play Doom3 without problems - its so obviously 'not real' and the demons are so 'not demons' from a biblical perspective. However, I do think that a game like Doom3 could be bad to some Christians and especialy to non-christians because they will associate 'demons' and 'hell' with what they see in the game. So when a Christian starts talking about demons and hell, their view or 'picture' is immediatly 'tainted' with the game imagery - they have been 'decieved'.

Hehe - Church Sims or Sim Church, yikes! Seriously though, I think playing the Sims 'might' be worse than playing Morrowwind!! Sims promotes certain poor moral ethics and allows players to 'play out' their fantasies in a reality like our own. I think this is then quite likely to be viewed as 'normal' behaviour to them. On the other hand, Morrowwind is a complete fantasy. True, it promotes 'fighting' and 'magic' and these can be damaging also. But 'I think' that the greatest threat comes from the more subtle forms of deception in many 'non-violent' games. I mean, you know where your at with a BFG!!! So dunno, maybe they are both as 'bad' as each other?

Personaly, I want to create some Christian games that will reach people who do play 'violent' games. That does not mean I have to create the meanest, most bloody game ever though. The new testament often uses imagery of soldiers and battles, and the old testament had them! I think we are sometimes 'too' careful in this area???

Oh, and I fully accept I could be completly wrong about everything

Rhy

--D-SIPL

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"One World. One Web. One Program." -Microsoft promotional advertisement
"Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer!" -Adolf Hitler

quote:

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Hehe - Church Sims or Sim Church, yikes! Seriously though, I think playing the Sims 'might' be worse than playing Morrowwind!! Sims promotes certain poor moral ethics and allows players to 'play out' their fantasies in a reality like our own. I think this is then quite likely to be viewed as 'normal' behaviour to them. On the other hand, Morrowwind is a complete fantasy. True, it promotes 'fighting' and 'magic' and these can be damaging also. But 'I think' that the greatest threat comes from the more subtle forms of deception in many 'non-violent' games. I mean, you know where your at with a BFG!!! So dunno, maybe they are both as 'bad' as each other?

---

you know, i wanted the sims for my birthday a few years back, but my parents wouldnt let me have it cause it said 'mature sexual content' on the back.. i've played it and really dont see any thing 'mature' about it (and how can it be 'mature' if it has a 'teen' rating? heh go figure)... but the sims 2 on the otherhand.. where you can actually raise your people to be.. uhh lets say 'queer'... and have your people 'woohoo' as they call it.. i think that kinda takes it a little far. ... ... i've never played morrowwind but i've seen it on xplay. doesn't look like my type of game anyways really.

however, i actually do enjoy playing america's army. and i agree, it really is hard to be honest and say, is this right? i mean, i make excuses about it.. like this is made by the army, the army is real and this shows what they have to go through (at least partly), it makes you go through basic training before you can go out on the field teaching you disipline (to some extent.. i mean you cant just go out at start shooting). you can go through med training, which really does teach you real life saving stuff. i mean, in the bible it says there is a time for war..

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~~~boogie woogie woogie~~~

[This message has been edited by bwoogie (edited March 14, 2005).]

quote:

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Originally posted by Goop2:
Well Ill make them for you!

ok... to my room...

Would you play a game about some of the wars david fought? You must remember, that was very violent and bloody!

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David's wars arent any difrend when compared to other wars. It's the same kind of killing like in any war, wich isn't good...

[This message has been edited by Jari (edited March 15, 2005).]

I can go on and say GTA, Manhunt, the three new video games released based on Veitnam and a few others. I love them games personaly. Is it violent? Hell yes, would I let a child or some one under the age 18 to play them? NO.

When creating a game or just going to out play or purchase a game, movie, cd. You have ask yourself are You happy with the content of it? Are happy with the meaning of it? And what I ask myself. Does it make you think about things that you normaly wouldnt have thought of and does it make you look inside yourself or towards god for an answer or lead you to see some thing about God that you have missed before?

We all are different and have different tastes and styles and backgrounds. We just gotta go by our faith and how we feel about the things we create and play or read or watch.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

Oh well, no biggie I suppose.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

One thing I forgot to mention about violent video games. I think if you are using them to release your anger, then that is bad. Releasing anger in this way will build up incorrect emotional habits and responses. Instead, you should get angry at God and shout at him for a while and then when you have calmed down, discuss the problem with God and finaly perhaps go and discuus the thing that made you angry with the person who made you angry (if its appriopiate). God is REALLY BIG enough to take this, believe me - and besides, He already knows exactly how and why you feel the way you do (better than yoursefl). So, even if your not angry at God directly, hash it out with him first and dont be afraid to shout! If you are angry at God, then definetly getting talking (or shouting) with Him as soon as possible. Oh and a tip, its often best to find a remote spot before starting the 'discussion'

And lastly, just to be clear about 'sin'. There are many things in the bible which are undoubtedly sin for everyone - such as adultry. These are usualy specificaly mentioned by Jesus. If your conscience does not tell you are wrong in these areas, then you need to pray to God to heal your conscience! I am not seperating sin into two areas here, I 'personaly' believe that sin 'may' be different for different people, but certain acts will 'always' be sin for everyone because of the nature of that act and the way we are made.

God Bless,
Rhy

[This message has been edited by Rhyolite (edited March 16, 2005).]

I don't think that everyone coule possibly have the same way to deal with anger, I have never shouted at God, I deal with my anger by doing something else such as games or books or friends. So, it's best to find something that works for you and go with it. Although I'm sure your method works for you Rhy.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Yeah, we all have different ways of dealing with anger and many of them are very appriopiate - we don't always have to yell at God. I was mainly referring to people who use 'violent' games to get rid of their anger, I think this is bad.

I think to clarify though. Its not always ahouting AT God (unless you are angry with Him about something), but often shouting in Gods presence. For example, I would often go for a long walk and invite God (Jesus) to come with me. I would 'talk' with him as we walked (usualy in my head unless I was sure no-one was about!) and often shout as my anger on the subject surfaced. I know many people may go for walks to get rid of anger anyway. But the difference here is that you are allowing God to get involved in the problem and minister to you. God may address issues that you have or perhaps show you the best way forward. After all, surely your very best friend will always want to share your problems and help you out - consider it 'very articulated' prayer

A long time ago (15 years), I used to vent my anger via games and music. But slowly God taught me that this was not really dealing with the root cause of my anger and in fact was only making it worse (even though I felt better at the time, I found I became angry much more easily as time progressed). Although I found it hard to accept the idea of shouting at God, some Christian friends confirmed this was ok (and showed me passages of scripture) at the same time God was promting me to do so. Letting God get involved im my anger (rather than trying to deal with it on my own) really helped. I get angry much less often as God has changed me. Also, it very much deepened my relationship with and understanding of God

Rhy

[This message has been edited by Rhyolite (edited March 17, 2005).]

Just my thoughts.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

anyways, back to the 'more on' topic. didn't God use violence and death in the bible? i mean, look at samson. God used him to slay the philostiens. so, i guess what i'm saying is God created life, and can take it away.. so, would it be wrong if in your game if God told your character to slay the 'whoevers'?

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~~~boogie woogie woogie~~~

At the very least, I think the OT fighting shows that we may sometimes hold a false image of God. Yes, He is a God of love, mercy and forgiveness - but He also instructed His people to attack and 'wipe out' other nations. So, God can be 'violent' at times!! Now, that statement should get some responses!

Like I said, I think those nations were very 'evil' and there is much we do not now about those times, so God was doing much the same as He did with the Flood - maybe?

Again, I think to try and make a game based directly on bible books is gonna be risky - at least when it involves 'violence'. But I dont think that is what you are suggesting?

Also, you are getting into dangerous ground when you present a God who is telling someone to kill stuff. Remember, there have been and still are, many acts of violence carried out in the name of god. Even though your intentions may be good and pure, it may not be interpreted as such. The OT battles cause many arguments even amongst Christians! Of course, if God gives you a clear purpose to create such a game then you will just have to accept you will offend many people.

Although I am very happy with my own conscience on this subject, I may well be wrong. I would suggest that you do some searches on these forums and read other peoples view on the subject (if you have not already done so). Plus, I really need to get some work done on my game now - hehe

God Bless,
Rhy

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I dont like siggys. They are to hard to think up :(

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rhyolite:

At the very least, I think the OT fighting shows that we may sometimes hold a false image of God. Yes, He is a God of love, mercy and forgiveness - but He also instructed His people to attack and 'wipe out' other nations. So, God can be 'violent' at times!! Now, that statement should get some responses!

---

quote:

---

Also, you are getting into dangerous ground when you present a God who is telling someone to kill stuff. Remember, there have been and still are, many acts of violence carried out in the name of god. Even though your intentions may be good and pure, it may not be interpreted as such. The OT battles cause many arguments even amongst Christians! Of course, if God gives you a clear purpose to create such a game then you will just have to accept you will offend many people.

---

you know, that church sim is looking better and better every second. haha. i was actually thinking about it in detail the other day. i dont know if i actually made it, if it would turn out as good as it is in my head... but heh, would be fun for a little while.

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~~~boogie woogie woogie~~~

Btw, what are going to develop your game in/with?

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~~~boogie woogie woogie~~~

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Warning: long post. Sorry

Wow. I'm amazed at the lack of discussion by other members of this forum on this topic. It may be an all too common topic, but it is a continuous issue (mainly among Christians) and should be addressed as often as necessary. Imagine if this topic were about something else that causes personal struggle - sin for example. I would be concerned if any problem was persistent and nobody was willing to discuss it and try to resolve it every time it was mentioned in a new topic. The discussion to date has been quite good - and extremely honest, which I am quite happy about. I will try to be just as candid in my response to this subject, with the intent to be non-offensive - but truth is bold by nature.

This issue has bothered me for a few years - it has been a struggle in my own life, trying to rationalize what is good and acceptable. For some time I have desired (God knows I've even tried) to be a game developer. My initial exposure to game development was at the beginning of FPS games, working on small mods and that sort as a hobby. It was a few years ago that I tried to take that to the next level and work on a mod that I hoped would have commercial appeal. I failed in that attempt miserably, and I firmly believe it was because my priorities were in the wrong order - with the worse part being that God was not in control of it at all. I am thankful for that experience, because of what I learned from it and where it has led me to be today. I'm not a game developer, and not really aspiring to be one anymore. Instead, I'm a better husband to a wonderful blessing of a wife, and a better father to three precious children. My priority is to live the example of a Christian life for my wife and children to see, leading them in the ways of God. Anything more that I enjoy in this life is by the grace and mercy of God. I said all of that to introduce my first point: the Christian priority.

As a Christian, my priority in life is God. And thus, my interests should focus on the things of God - the things he has made (this earth, my neighbors, etc.), and the things he has not made but given to us (love, grace, mercy, forgiveness, etc.). This seemingly simple process is really quite complex. For example, in loving my neighbors I have to look past those things I do not appreciate in my natural flesh. I have to look through the eyes of God at my neighbors and love them with the love of God. If I cannot do that, I cannot claim to be a child of God. The same scenario applies to other aspects of the Christian life. In facing whatever moment in life I have to face, I have to choose to live out that moment with the Spirit of God or without it (then being the natural, sinful "me"). It is a constant battle. But the degree of difficulty of this battle is lessened when I focus on God and engage in what he has for me, versus what this mortal world has for me. If I am doing the things I should do as a Christian, God will be in control of my life and all the things I do will reflect his presence in my life. I will be a better person - I will help others, work diligently, love my family, etc. If God is not in control, my life will reflect that and the different areas of my life will be full of struggle and conflict.

The second point I want to make is that video games - no matter what label you apply to them - is entertainment. The same goes for movies, television, radio, etc. None of these are inherently evil or bad, and any of these that might include a Christian message are not therefore suddenly inherently good. As much as we would like to think that something with God in it has "raised the bar" above something "secular", it does not automatically work that way. This is not to say it will not, if God wills and the Spirit works in those who see/hear it. What is important to consider is that entertainment, by definition, is a diversion which holds someone's attention. If the intent is to build a video game to divert someone's attention to God, there is much thought and prayer that has to go into such a task - with the willingness to do whatever God wills, even if that requires moving on to something else entirely - if God is going to be in control.

My third point is about time. Everything we do requires some commitment of time - none of which we can regain once we have used it. As a Christian, my time should be employed in good stewardship - as an investment, getting the most out of what I put in. In that sense, our time should not be wasteful; rather, the time we use should yield the most for God that is possible. Obviously, this is relative to each individual Christian - we all have strengths and weaknesses, both physically and spiritually. Still, as God works in and through us, we are strengthened.

I have tried to remain objective in my response because my personal opinions on the subject of Christian games is quite strong, but constantly being renewed as I continue to grow in Christ. One passage of scripture that has recently helped me understand some things is Romans 14; I have read this chapter many times, but it is interesting how God opens your eyes more as you learn more about him - even in a familiar passage of scripture as this. I will quote from the New Living Translation, because of its simplicity.

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1 Accept Christians who are weak in faith, and don't argue with them about what they think is right or wrong. 2 For instance, one person believes it is all right to eat anything. But another believer who has a sensitive conscience will eat only vegetables. 3 Those who think it is all right to eat anything must not look down on those who won't. And those who won't eat certain foods must not condemn those who do, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to condemn God's servants? They are responsible to the Lord, so let him tell them whether they are right or wrong. The Lord's power will help them do as they should. 5 In the same way, some think one day is more holy than another day, while others think every day is alike. Each person should have a personal conviction about this matter. 6 Those who have a special day for worshiping the Lord are trying to honor him. Those who eat all kinds of food do so to honor the Lord, since they give thanks to God before eating. And those who won't eat everything also want to please the Lord and give thanks to God. 7 For we are not our own masters when we live or when we die. 8 While we live, we live to please the Lord. And when we die, we go to be with the Lord. So in life and in death, we belong to the Lord. 9 Christ died and rose again for this very purpose, so that he might be Lord of those who are alive and of those who have died. 10 So why do you condemn another Christian {F82} ? Why do you look down on another Christian? Remember, each of us will stand personally before the judgment seat of God. 11 For the Scriptures say, "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow to me and every tongue will confess allegiance to God.'" {F83} 12 Yes, each of us will have to give a personal account to God. 13 So don't condemn each other anymore. Decide instead to live in such a way that you will not put an obstacle in another Christian's path. 14 I know and am perfectly sure on the authority of the Lord Jesus that no food, in and of itself, is wrong to eat. But if someone believes it is wrong, then for that person it is wrong. 15 And if another Christian is distressed by what you eat, you are not acting in love if you eat it. Don't let your eating ruin someone for whom Christ died. 16 Then you will not be condemned for doing something you know is all right. 17 For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 If you serve Christ with this attitude, you will please God. And other people will approve of you, too. 19 So then, let us aim for harmony in the church and try to build each other up. 20 Don't tear apart the work of God over what you eat. Remember, there is nothing wrong with these things in themselves. But it is wrong to eat anything if it makes another person stumble. 21 Don't eat meat or drink wine or do anything else if it might cause another Christian to stumble. 22 You may have the faith to believe that there is nothing wrong with what you are doing, but keep it between yourself and God. Blessed are those who do not condemn themselves by doing something they know is all right. 23 But if people have doubts about whether they should eat something, they shouldn't eat it. They would be condemned for not acting in faith before God. If you do anything you believe is not right, you are sinning.
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FOOTNOTES:
F82: Greek your brother; also in 14:10b, 13, 15, 21.
F83: Isa 45:23.

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<edit> Fixed URL (there's a limit on characters it seems LOL)

[This message has been edited by nfektious (edited March 20, 2005).]

Of course, there is another side as well. Many christians, particularly american conservative christians believe that violence is necessary in many circumstances and some, when it comes to war, even go to the extreme of having a "kill em all and let God sort em out" attitude.

I believe that, usualy, people's positions on this issue are a reflection of how they view God. God has many attributes and often times we have a tendancy to exalt one attribute to the exclusion of others. Pacifists tend to focus entirely on God's love, while neglecting his holiness, The warhawks do the reverse. This isn't all bad, because its true that God calls different people to different things, we just have to remember that just because someone doesn't share our calling doesn't mean they aren't called of God or serving God.

My natural tendancy is towards the warhawk side of things, but I try to keep myself in balance.

The balance is not muting both sides so that neither really exists but rather realizing that both sides do exist and that they counter balance each other.
Jesus is the Prince of Peace, but he is also the Mighty Warrior and the captain of the host. God shows amazing mercy and love, but he also utterly crushes and destroyes his enemies (and yes, his enemies has included people and nations).

I think the side of peace love and joy is obvious enough that I don't need to defend it, so I'll primarily talk about the other side.

In real life there is nothing unchristian, or sinful about being a soldier and killing the enemy. That is not to say it doesn't extract a price from you. Being a soldier is a calling of God, to some people. In addition to that, God calls all his people to be warriors in the great spiritual war.

Now, in the question of game violence we have an additional issue to address. In real life soldiers don't (or at least shouldn't) derive enjoyment and entertainment from killing people. It is something unfortunate that is done at necessity. The purpose of games of course is entertainment, and enjoyment, so this can become a real problem and needs to be addressed.
Even though a soldier doesn't take pleasure or enjoyment from killing soldiers often do take pride in their job, in being a good soldier, and through out history many times soldiers have experienced exhiliration in battle etc. I don't think this is entirely wrong. It is simply part of our God-given nature to, in some ways, love the fight. We enjoy times of peace and such, but we also thrive off of struggle. I know that this is God given because God himself is the same way in scripture. Of course some people are more this way, and others less... and as with all parts of our nature, this part is often twisted by sin and evil.

However, this part of our nature is very important to entertainment. This is where our drive, and craving of competition comes from. This is also why all great stories that speak to us and move us, revolve around struggle or crisis of some sort. We all want to be heros and to be noble, but those qualities are only revealed, or forged through struggle and conflict.
More than just being our nature, this is also an huge part of God's plan to restore us. Right from the very beginning in Genesis God fortells that it is through struggle that man will live and grow and become.

If you want to tell a story, or make a game that impacts people it must have conflict and struggle. Even beyond that, it must have conflict and struggle that people identify with, that is real to people, and yet is something that gives them the chance to be heroic and noble, beyond the every day.

How that plays into my view of violence in games is as follows. War and combat are a part of the reality of human existance and history, both on the side of good, and of evil (unlike some other things which are part of reality but are simply evil all around, like for example, sexual perversions)
The struggles of war an combat are things people identify with, in addition to being real, they are also very much allegorical for our spiritual struggles (as the bible often uses them). Thus I don't have a problem with violence in games, as long as it is within certain bounds.
What determines those bounds is another difficult question but in general I would put it to the "gratuity test" is there a real point to the violence within the game, or is it simply there to gratify people's desire for gore and bloodshed?

In meddle of honor the violence has a point, its both depicting a historical situation, and also creating the environment that allows you to pit your combat skill against someone elses. In GTA much of the violence has no point at all other than to be grossly violent. It serves no purpose to advance the story of the game, it isn't really even a test of skill.. its just there because some people think its funny to take a flame thrower to old women in the street.
Another aspect of this test is, does the violence go beyond what is need to accomplish the point. This was a big objection people had to mortal combat back in the day... in street fighter you could hit people and beat them up and that was all that was needed for the point of the game.. in MK you could rip someone's spine out or roast them or any of numerous other grotesque ways to kill someone and it was largely pointless.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

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~~~boogie woogie woogie~~~

I neglected a few things, which only came back to mind today, that relate to this discussion (and can be applied to others also).

I know from other conversations on this topic that the story of the Hebrews on their way to the Promised Land has also been used as an example to bolster the argument supporting Christians making violent games. I cannot deny that the Bible has these things in it - that is obvious to see. Perhaps what is not so obvious is the reason these things are in the Bible. Exodus is the common reference for all that happened once the Hebrews left Egypt. However, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy all offer additional insight into some specific events. The best way to gain a complete understanding of why God commanded the Israelites to do certain things is to read over all of these books starting at Exodus 14. Perhaps one note I can offer in a form of summary of all of this war stuff at this period can be found in Deuteronomy 20:

• Only certain individuals were allowed to go to war. (verses 5-9)
• When they attacked cities not belonging to any nearby nation, the first thing they were to do was offer peace and the people were to be integrated into their culture and employed basically as slaves. If peace was refused, they were to sieze the city, and kill only the men - taking everything else as their property. (verses 10-15)
• The cities belonging to the nations that inhabited the land God promised were to be completely destroyed for the purpose of purification of sin and evil. (verses 16-18)
• When engaged in battle, they were instructed not to do any damage to the trees of the fields, unless they were not fruit trees and were needed to conquer the city. (verses 19-20)
  

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7 "I wanted to build a Temple to honor the name of the LORD my God," David told him. 8 "But the LORD said to me, 'You have killed many men in the great battles you have fought. And since you have shed so much blood before me, you will not be the one to build a Temple to honor my name. 9 But you will have a son who will experience peace and rest. I will give him peace with his enemies in all the surrounding lands. His name will be Solomon, {F131} and I will give peace and quiet to Israel during his reign. 10 He is the one who will build a Temple to honor my name. He will be my son, and I will be his father. And I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'
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FOOTNOTES:
F131: Solomon sounds like and is probably derived from the Hebrew word for "peace."

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quote:

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1 When you have something against another Christian, why do you file a lawsuit and ask a secular court to decide the matter, instead of taking it to other Christians to decide who is right? 2 Don't you know that someday we Christians are going to judge the world? And since you are going to judge the world, can't you decide these little things among yourselves? 3 Don't you realize that we Christians will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disagreements here on earth. 4 If you have legal disputes about such matters, why do you go to outside judges who are not respected by the church? 5 I am saying this to shame you. Isn't there anyone in all the church who is wise enough to decide these arguments? 6 But instead, one Christian {F30} sues another – right in front of unbelievers! 7 To have such lawsuits at all is a real defeat for you. Why not just accept the injustice and leave it at that? Why not let yourselves be cheated? 8 But instead, you yourselves are the ones who do wrong and cheat even your own Christian brothers and sisters. {F31}

9 Don't you know that those who do wrong will have no share in the Kingdom of God? Don't fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, who are idol worshipers, adulterers, male prostitutes, homosexuals, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, abusers, and swindlers – none of these will have a share in the Kingdom of God. 11 There was a time when some of you were just like that, but now your sins have been washed away, {F32} and you have been set apart for God. You have been made right with God because of what the Lord Jesus Christ and the Spirit of our God have done for you.

12 You may say, "I am allowed to do anything." But I reply, "Not everything is good for you." And even though "I am allowed to do anything," I must not become a slave to anything. 13 You say, "Food is for the stomach, and the stomach is for food." This is true, though someday God will do away with both of them. But our bodies were not made for sexual immorality. They were made for the Lord, and the Lord cares about our bodies. 14 And God will raise our bodies from the dead by his marvelous power, just as he raised our Lord from the dead. 15 Don't you realize that your bodies are actually parts of Christ? Should a man take his body, which belongs to Christ, and join it to a prostitute? Never! 16 And don't you know that if a man joins himself to a prostitute, he becomes one body with her? For the Scriptures say, "The two are united into one." {F33} 17 But the person who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him. 18 Run away from sexual sin! No other sin so clearly affects the body as this one does. For sexual immorality is a sin against your own body. 19 Or don't you know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself, 20 for God bought you with a high price. So you must honor God with your body.
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FOOTNOTES:
F30: Greek one brother.
F31: Greek brothers.
F32: Or you have been cleansed.
F33: Gen 2:24.

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23 You say, "I am allowed to do anything" – but not everything is helpful. You say, "I am allowed to do anything" – but not everything is beneficial. 24 Don't think only of your own good. Think of other Christians and what is best for them. 25 Here's what you should do. You may eat any meat that is sold in the marketplace. Don't ask whether or not it was offered to idols, and then your conscience won't be bothered. 26 For "the earth is the Lord's, and everything in it." {F53} 27 If someone who isn't a Christian asks you home for dinner, go ahead; accept the invitation if you want to. Eat whatever is offered to you and don't ask any questions about it. Your conscience should not be bothered by this. 28 But suppose someone warns you that this meat has been offered to an idol. Don't eat it, out of consideration for the conscience of the one who told you. 29 It might not be a matter of conscience for you, but it is for the other person.Now, why should my freedom be limited by what someone else thinks? 30 If I can thank God for the food and enjoy it, why should I be condemned for eating it? 31 Whatever you eat or drink or whatever you do, you must do all for the glory of God. 32 Don't give offense to Jews or Gentiles or the church of God. 33 That is the plan I follow, too. I try to please everyone in everything I do. I don't just do what I like or what is best for me, but what is best for them so they may be saved.
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FOOTNOTES:
F53: Ps 24:1.

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Sorry, I rambled a little bit there. I just came home from church and had to get these things posted.

<edit> Updated footnote reference I missed in the quote from 1 Chronicles 22.

[This message has been edited by nfektious (edited March 20, 2005).]

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Originally posted by nfektious:
Sorry, I rambled a little bit there. I just came home from church and had to get these things posted.

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don't be sorry you bring good points into the subject. ... just to bad video games wern't invented when the bible was written

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~~~boogie woogie woogie~~~

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

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All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wander are lost

The old that is stong does not wither
Deep roots are not touched by the frost

From the ashes a fire shall be woken
A light from the shadows shall spring

Renewed shall be blade that was broken
And the crownless again shall be King

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

On a side note, has anyone attempted the whole "SIM Pastor" thingy?

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

One thing that really bothers me is war games. After the Iraq war (which we all know is very sad thing) started many new FPS games have come out focusing on Iraq type battle zones.

Just wanted to point couple things out, whit out referring to anyone.

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Try to explain divine election, and you may lose your mind, try to explain it away and you could lose your soul (my youth pastor quoting somebaody he can't remeber)

quote:

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Originally posted by klown:
There is a game out by Rockstar Games that's called Manhunt. It's basically a Snuff game. And you have to do executions and stealth away and hide from bounty hunters that are trying to wack you. A very violent and bloody game and yes your manhunt sounds like a rip off , off Rockstars "Manhunt". Specially with the execution style killings you brought up.

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*SIGH* seems like all my game ideas get stolen by sombody...

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I dont like siggys. They are to hard to think up :(

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Keep the holy day sacred.......halllllllukan

In response to your question Max, I prefer RTS myself, as well as turn based RPG's (Such as LOTR: The Third Age) and none bloody action games that let you play cool heroes (LOTR:Return of the King) as well as most of the newest Christian titles (Ominous Horizens, Saints of Virtue, Victory at Hebron, and Eternal Wars). Pretty much I just try to think wisely before I decide to even rent a game.

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All that is gold does not glitter
Not all those who wander are lost

The old that is stong does not wither
Deep roots are not touched by the frost

From the ashes a fire shall be woken
A light from the shadows shall spring

Renewed shall be blade that was broken
And the crownless again shall be King

I love RTS and RPGs. Not many FPS though. Ya know, I like to play GTA SA, but mainly so I can fly planes and stuff, I don't even do anything twith my GF in the game.

I gotta say that my all time favorite RTS is Starcraft.

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The learned man knows that he is ignorant - Victor Hugo

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Try to explain divine election, and you may lose your mind, try to explain it away and you could lose your soul (my youth pastor quoting somebaody he can't remeber)

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~~~boogie woogie woogie~~~