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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

Here is a book that agrees... and from an atheistic viewpoint at that.

http://www.amazon.com/exec /obidos/tg/detail/-/0520235614/qid=1096112308/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-4281820-3062203?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

quote:

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Sociologists, historians, and other social observers have long considered the secularization of American public life over the past hundred and thirty years to be an inevitable and natural outcome of modernization. This groundbreaking work rejects this view and fundamentally rethinks the historical and theoretical causes of the secularization of American public life between 1870 and 1930. Christian Smith and his team of contributors boldly argue that the declining authority of religion was not the by-product of modernization, but rather the intentional achievement of cultural and intellectual elites, including scientists, academics, and literary intellectuals, seeking to gain control of social institutions and increase their own cultural authority.

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The author goes so far as to suggest that now they have "won" they should drop all pretense and reap the benefits of their hard-won Secular Revolution.

EDIT: For an idea of what to expect:

http://www.worldmag.com/displayarticle.cfm?id=9987

[This message has been edited by Gump (edited December 21, 2004).]

Alien abductions and Roswell and all that UFO stuff. Freakin' mysterious.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

I think there has been a concerted effort by humanists to secularize society through education. I don't think its a conspiracy per say because they haven't really tried to hide it. All you have to do are read the humanist manifesto's, read the books and articles written by Dewey, Kurtz, guys like that and its pretty much blatant.
I should point out that "secularize" implies removing religion, which is not actually the case. Secular Humanism is in fact a religion itself. It is not trying to remove all religion, its trying to supplant traditional "sacred" religions with itself, the "secular" religion.
Along with this there has been a concerted effort by the "progressives" usualy the same people as the humanists, to re-order society as they think it should be, with themselves at the top of course telling everyone else what to think, say, do, and believe.

These movements should just show how easy it is for conspiracies to succeed simply because these guys don't really try to hide what they do, they write it in books, in government reports, in journals.. its just that nobody is listening, or cares enough to keep tabs.

anyway, on to conspiracy theories.. my personal favorites mostly revolve around secret societies.. masons, templars, bilderbergers and big historical families like St. Claires, Rothchilds, Rhodes and so on.
Of course a good old fashioned Kennedy assasination theory is always enjoyable as well. I'm also a fan of alternative history (great pyramid, etc) although I don't go in much for "aliens did it" theories of alternative history.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

I would have completely discounted that theory as bunk, but some of the picture evidence pointed out by the theorists is interesting. Stuff that makes it look very much like the moon landing photo's were doctored.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

quote:

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I would have completely discounted that theory as bunk, but some of the picture evidence pointed out by the theorists is interesting. Stuff that makes it look very much like the moon landing photo's were doctored.

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Such as what? I've seen professional photographers show that they were, in fact, not doctored. Most "problems" stem from either a lack of understanding of a no-atmosphere environment or a lack of understanding of photography.

Plus there's the problem of keeping thousands of people in the program quiet about the hoax. I'm very sure it's real.

http://www.clavius.org/
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/apollohoax.html

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
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[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited December 23, 2004).]

Surely the mark of a good conspiracy is that it seems like total rubbish until you look at the 'evidence' presented?

[This message has been edited by d000hg (edited December 24, 2004).]

to be honest I still think the moon landing conspiracy theory is untrue. It is often put forward by "flat earth" people as a support to the idea of the flat earth, which is rediculous. However, I was just pointing out that as rediculous as the theory sounds at first, it can be made to seem reasonable. Its been quite a while since I looked at this theory, because I never gave it much consideration. However, the one picture I remember was a picture taken by the lunar rover. In the picture there are several "+" marks across the top which are supposed to be in the camera itself to provide point of refrence to the picture. If this is the case the "+" marks should be superimposed over anything in the picture. However, in the picture the antena of the lunar rover actually passes infront of the "+". Something that should be impossible if the picture is legit.
this of course doesn't constitute reasonable proof.. its just interesting. In reality it would have been just as easy for the conspiracy theorist who was displaying the picture to have doctored it in his favor.

That is one of the great problems with the "information age" people think that information is more widely availalbe which is true.. however, it has also made it increasingly difficult to distinguish true/good information from bad/false information.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

quote:

---

It is often put forward by "flat earth" people as a support to the idea of the flat earth, which is rediculous.

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You should be aware that, despite your good intentions, that type of reasoning is a Genetic Fallacy. I strongly recommend not using associations with a group of people for disregarding a theory.

An insane person who says the earth is round is correct, despite being insane.

quote:

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However, in the picture the antena of the lunar rover actually passes infront of the "+". Something that should be impossible if the picture is legit.

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Pay attention to the other parts of the picture - do the white parts of the picture seem to be bleeding over the black parts? Usually, that's the case - a bit of bleed, due to some overexposure.

quote:

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How did the flag move

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Usually, it's just because of inertia because the flag has just been put down.

And if you're looking at a still photo, BTW, you can't tell if it's moving or not . . .

quote:

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and how did they get such good photos when the cameras were stuck to their stomachs

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Usually, only the best photos are shown to the public. Most good photographers know enough to take a lot of pictures, and only a fracion are chosen to finally make available.

Also answered in a sub-article in the link I gave:

quote:

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The lack of viewfinder was occasionally a problem. Early missions used a wide-angle lense. It was sufficient to point the camera in the general direction of the subject and you would be likely to frame it well enough. On later missions a 500mm telephoto lens was also taken, and the cameras were modified with sighting rings to help aim them. Normally the camera would be mounted on the space suit chest bracket, but for telephoto use the astronaut would have to remove it and hold it at eye level in order to sight down the rings.

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And I agree - this sort of stuff, if shown without all the facts, can lead to some wrong conclusions.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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it's true! haha

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Soterion Studios

who gets to be a "Moive star"? you say?
who gets to be immortal?

well, lets see... if they are proven to be dead, then i guess they weren't a movie star, because any true movie star could never die. john ritter is proven dead. NOT A MOVIE STAR.

i think u'll all agree that my circular reasoning makes no sense, yet at the same time makes perfect sense.

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It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Abe Lincoln

An insane person who says the earth is round is correct, despite being insane."

What exactly is a genetic fallacy?

It seems that your suggesting that the people who constitute the "flat earth society" are members of this organization because of a genetic flaw? Is it not possible that people who are not genetically disabled could buy into a stupid theory?

I was in no way suggesting that the people of the flat earth society are retarded.. or even less intelligent than anyone else.. I was saying that their belief in a flat earth is stupid, and that the idea of the moon landing being faked is something they are required to believe in order for the earth to be flat. If the earth is flat it means that all of what modern physics has taught about the solar system is patently false, there are no orbits, space itself as we know it doesn't really exist. Thus in order to believe in the flat earth theory, you must also believe that all space flights, all photos of the earth from space, the moon landing, basicly everything nasa has done is forgery and hoax.

This is what I was trying to get across. The moon landing theory lacks credability to me because it is directly tied to supporting the flat earth theory. Not that any idea believed by a flat earth person must also be bunk. There is a necessary connection between the two ideas.. they in a sense are part of the same conspiracy theory.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

No, I am not referring to genetics, sorry about that.

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

------------------
Soterion Studios

as for ancient history stuff, lots of stuff interest me, from easily veriable stuff like the gospel + history of creation,eden,fall,flood,babel etc..
but particularly ancient tech like asncient accurate world maps including the coastline of antartica UNDER THE ICE, plus evidence of nuclear wars in the past, skelitons of the likes of goliath (over 8 ft tall, 2 sets of teeth, and 6 fingers), the list goes on and on and on.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

As for the JFK vs. the Federal Reserve... I've long thought that that was probably one of the major reasons he was knocked off. As an interesting note Abraham Lincoln was also involved in a struggle at his time with the national bank, which was the predecessor of the federal reserve bank.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

The most interesting would be the UFO's, some of which are indeed confirmed sitings, like the one in Japan (or China?) seen by thousands. Radar couldn't detect them though. I think they could be related to some demonic activity and the occult in some weird way.

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"Before Abraham was... I Am." - Jesus Christ

3rd Day Studios

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

and just the other day my boss told me about a strange experience he had. He was driving home (in northwoods of wisconsin) with his girlfriend in the car when he saw a creature run across the road in front of him. Both he and his girlfriend saw it clearly and neither one had any idea what it was.
He described it as large, around the size of a bear, furry, grey in color, he said it looked like it could have been a huge timber wolf except for the really odd fact that its fore legs were considerably longer than its hind legs so that when it ran it appeared almost like a gorilla (ecxept the forlegs were actually legs, not arms like on a gorilla).

------------------
-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

------------------
proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

To answer the question about strange creatures, here are some interesting facts I can share:
My family has missionary friends to some Native Americans. They have witnessed astral projection by individuals in the community they work and by others they have not known, coming against them and threatening them.
My aunt has witnessed the same sort of thing - astral projection - by someone she has never known. My mother has spoken to demons (dwelling within a person) and has seen what some would call a "ghost", but by her description you would be convinced was something more sinister. Both my aunt and my mother have experienced the "spirit realm", something they were active in at much younger ages but have long since turned from and become devout Christians.
My mother-in-law, now a devout Christian, was once heavily involved in the occult (Satanism specifically), to the degree that she was diagnosed with MPD. Her three eldest children suffered at her hands and at the hands of others involved, to the point that the children were removed by Social Services. It took 5 years before God miraculously allowed the children to return home. The stories of what they all experienced is totally mind-blowing, and even moreso to see how God worked everything out.
In spite of this evidence I know God is in control and am not afraid. I recognize the reality of demons and their power, but do not put that above the strength and power of God. I think everyone knows of these things in their heart, but due to their individual degree of faith may not see these truths completely.

[This message has been edited by nfektious (edited December 28, 2004).]

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

But yeah I don't think that people have enhanced senses. I don't believe 95% of the junk they show on TV anyways. And when people say they are physic, 9 out of 10 times they're probably a fake. But if they really are really tapping into something, then I believe what they're involved in is straight from the pits of hell.

K, this is off-topic, but the antichrist and the false prophet are going to do all types of counterfeit signs and wonders, like raising from the dead, bringing fire down from the sky, etc.. etc.. This is what I don't like about TV and the movies and what they come out with, cause they seem to make the majority think that the supernatural is a fluffed up fairy tale, when it is indeed real. Has anyone noticed the sudden fascination with Hollywood and the occult in recent years?

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"Before Abraham was... I Am." - Jesus Christ

3rd Day Studios

I'm sure that the majority of psychics are complete phoneys, even if they themselves believe it.. However there are some people who genuinely have visions etc, most of these are likely demonic inspired. John the apostles said in scripture that there are many spirits but not all are of God, he went on to say that the way you can know if a spirit is of God is if it testifies to the gosepl of Jesus Christ.

Max, you asked what the point of these things.. from the demonic perspective the point is deception. By and large the people who have converse with demons, wether they be masqurading as ghosts, or familiar spirits or aliens or what have you, end up deceived. Almost invariably they end up going into the new age belief system or into the occult.
Another point, when it comes to posession and spiritual warfare is control. They want to control people.

As a tangent to the topic of demons.. there has always been a debate from scripture about what demons are. Most people, probably, believe that they are fallen angels.. yet in scripture there seem to be significant differences in the way demons (refered to as unclean spirits in scripture) and fallen angels are refrenced.
Just a few examples.. fallen angels are refered to as principalities that rule over nations, and almost always are refrenced as dwelling in the air around the earth ("prince of te power of the air" etc) They are portrayed as having lost none of their power or even glory.. There is a never a refrence to a fallen angel desiring to posess a human, possibly because they can take human form at will by themselves?

Demons on the other hand are almost always portrayed as earthbound spirits, wandering the face of the earth, looking for people to posess, demons seem desperate to posess a physical body, even to the point of prefering a heard of pigs to nothing. they are never refrenced as celestial beings (as are fallen angels) or particularly powerful spiritualy.

These things and more have lead some people to conclude that demons are not fallen angels.. for myself I really don't know which is the correct answer... however, for nfektious and your research on Nephilim... There are some who believe that demons are the condemned souls of the nephilim who were fallen from birth and consumed by evil etc.. again, I don't know that I believe this.. but its interesting.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

That's just what I've heard, though. I've never tried one myself, and I never intend to.

quote:

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I don't believe 95% of the junk they show on TV anyways. And when people say they are physic, 9 out of 10 times they're probably a fake. But if they really are really tapping into something, then I believe what they're involved in is straight from the pits of hell.

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I agree.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

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7 days without prayer makes one weak.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Narf!

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Luke 9:23
1 John 2:6

quote:

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Originally posted by madprof:
we are all part of a massive science experiment controlled by super intellegent white mice.

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But, but, but... 42 is such a boring number. BTW, a new Hitchhikers movie is coming out.