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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

I personally think suicide is a "go directly to hell." card.
it's murdering yourself. forgivable by God.

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Soterion Studios

It's a very legalistic thing to believe all self-murderers go straight to Hell.

I don't think that God would send someone to hell because they committed suicide. With God, sin is sin right? Picture this sequence of events for example. What if there was a minister of God, saved, spirit-filled, totally submitted. And he happened to be crossing the street, then he spots an attractive young woman walking by, he has a lustful thought about her, but before he can repent of it, he gets hit by an 18-Wheeler and is killed instantly, gone just like that. If someone immediately goes to hell for committing suicide, then this guy would go there too.

My point is, that God judges our hearts. I've heard tragic stories of people who have committed suicide, some were even Christians, but heart broken from overwhelming problems in their lives. Here is one such story:

There was a man, who was in a really bad gang, they would do drugs and kill enemies and all that stuff. But one day this man went to a church, where he met the LORD. His life changed, he got married, and eventually moved away and had kids. But the gang didn't want to let him out that easily. They found him, and started threatening his family. They do really evil things to people, like mutilating bodies, sending body parts in the mail, and all of those wicked things. Well, this man jumped off of a bridge, because he didn't see any other way to save his family. I don't think that he is currently in hell.

If a Christian sins, he doesn't immediatly become a non-Christian. God knows our hearts. And only He can judge us according to it.

Hope that helps someone.

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If you let your faith go cold enough, there might come a point where you don't want to turn back to God. That would be tragic. -- Quote from Keith Green

3rd Day Studios

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

I don't know if Judas is in hell or not, but if he is, it's not simply because he committed suicide.

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Brian

Suicide is a very difficult question, there is nothing in scripture that I can see which mandates that a person goes to hell for committing suicide. However, there is more to suicide than simply the sin of murder. G.K. Chesterton writes some interesting comments about suicide in his book "orthodoxy".
Obviously it is possible for people to commit suicide for different reasons, However, in the common case of suicide, there is more involved than simply the sin of killing yourself because you have to look at what that act really means. When you kill yourself your basicly saying that you so completely hate the world and everything and everyone in it that you'd rather murder yourself than continue on. Along with that you are essentially saying that you don't believe God has a purpose for you life, that you don't believe he can make your life better, and that you don't believe you have a duty to serve him with your life, no matter how miserable you are. So the question is can a person do something which entails those beliefs, and still "have faith"? Is suicide an act so contradictory to faith that it is impossible have both. I don't think this is an easy question, and I don't think I know the answer.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

God Bless,

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If you let your faith go cold enough, there might come a point where you don't want to turn back to God. That would be tragic. -- Quote from Keith Green

3rd Day Studios

quote:

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When you kill yourself your basically saying that

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Cause sometimes people do stupid things when the heat is on. Sometimes a person may not think of all of the consequences because their so wrapped up in their problem. But the bottom line is this, God will be the judge of that. And I don't know for sure. I don't think that we can be correct in saying "I know so and so is in hell because he\she committed suicide."

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If you let your faith go cold enough, there might come a point where you don't want to turn back to God. That would be tragic. -- Quote from Keith Green

3rd Day Studios

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited December 01, 2004).]

On Judas right now. Does anyone agree with me that it is kind of unfair? I mean, someone had to betray Jesus, it was foretold and everything, was the unlucky person just doomed for doing God's plan? I mean, it keeps me awake at night, things like this. I have a hard time believing that God would make him an example of anything. I may be wrong, have been before. I hope someone can give me more info.
Thanks, Max

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

How does one know that when a person commits suicide, that that isnt what is being pushed for by god?

Suicide is a very touchy subject for me. Just because I've tried it over three times. Did I want to die when I did that? Yes. Did I think out all of the consequences that would come out of it? Yes i did, and still thought it was the best way for me to go. Was I right with the Lord when I tried all that? No I wasnt.

Yet do I believe suicide is a go directly to hell card? No I dont. God knows our heart's and knows the plan that he has laid out for us. Do we know that plan is or what all is in that plan? No, so we dont know if our ending is by suicide or by old age or end painfully with cancer. The thing is we dont know.

Yet suicide some times does have good ripple effects. I know since I was suicidal and have tried it. I talk to very depressed teens and help them with their problems and also help find out why they feel that way. Which has been very good for me and healing also. I've met a few great people are close like family now.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

quote:

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On Judas right now. Does anyone agree with me that it is kind of unfair? I mean, someone had to betray Jesus, it was foretold and everything, was the unlucky person just doomed for doing God's plan? I mean, it keeps me awake at night, things like this. I have a hard time believing that God would make him an example of anything. I may be wrong, have been before. I hope someone can give me more info.

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I find it sad how Judas was with Jesus for so long, and how he still didn't see what Jesus was about. But, no I don't think that it was unfair. Judas wasn't forced to betray Jesus. Although God did know that Judas would betray Him, it was still Judas's own choice. God knows what we are going to do, but our choice is indeed real. It had nothing to do with bad luck or with God saying, "I'll pick this guy to betray me." Judas made his own choice because of his own selfish desires. On a side note, I have experienced in my short life, people who would say that then this isn't really a choice, but that God had already decided everything beforehand. But what that really points out is that persons own desire to be apart from God's will.

Klown:

I have a feeling that God is going to use you in a great way. It seems that you've been through alot, and God is turning the bad into the good. Which is great! Stay encouraged bro.

To answer your question: (if I understand it correctly)
Are you asking if God wants some people to try to commit suicide? If that's the question, then it's pretty clear from scripture that God won't tempt anyone to do something that's wrong. Temptation to do sin occurs when by our own desires, we are led astray. As it says in James:

quote:

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James 1:12  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13  ¶Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

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If you let your faith go cold enough, there might come a point where you don't want to turn back to God. That would be tragic. -- Quote from Keith Green

3rd Day Studios

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited December 01, 2004).]

quote:

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On Judas right now. Does anyone agree with me that it is kind of unfair? I mean, someone had to betray Jesus, it was foretold and everything, was the unlucky person just doomed for doing God's plan?

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quote:

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When you kill yourself your basicly saying that ... you don't believe God has a purpose for you life, that you don't believe he can make your life better, and that you don't believe you have a duty to serve him with your life, no matter how miserable you are. ...Is suicide an act so contradictory to faith that it is impossible have both.

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Soterion Studios

Suicide:
It's a good point about killing yourself being rejecting God - but that is a definition for any sin. It doesn't matter that suicide is more than just murder (by the way murder is also not a 'straight to hell card'), sin is sin. It sounded like one post tried to say that ifyou committed suicide you couldn't actually really be a Christian to do that. That's an incredibly idealistic view - a Christian is still likely to throw a punch at someone who insults him, or to murder somebody they find in bed with their wife... in the heat of emotion your actions don't always correspond to your beliefs, and that's just part of mankind's affliction which makes us require salvation through Jesus.

ex.

Say a teenage kid who is right with the lord, yet suffers a great evil. No one to go to because her relatives have disowned her for some reason or another. Feeling betrayed by family and depression kicking in, she ends her life. With the loss of the girl, her family realizes what they've missed out on by disowning her and turns to the church and god for answers.

Yet, was her life planned to end at that instant by God? Was she only destined to life that short life because God wanted to use her in a way to open the hearts of not only her family yet other people that her life may have touched?

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

I'm totally there with you regarding the tough situation things like that are. It really does seem unfair that God would harden people's hearts. Next time you read through Romans, check out chapter 9 in specific (I dislike chapter divisions, but they're useful sometimes for finding stuff). Don't read it out of context, and I don't know how to tell you to read that chapter (whether Jacob and Esau are two specific people or whether they are large groups of people -- Israel and Edom). However, it's a chapter I've been wrestling with for a few months now.

Keep praying, I'm not sure where to go on this one either.

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http://www.includingjudas.com/christiangame.html

as most of you are probably aware from my other posts, I believe that our reality is a mixture of free choice, and predestination. God can take control, but he also offers us the ability to be free. There are two famous cases in scripture that always speak towards predestination, Judas, and Pharoh of the old testament. It is evident that God in both cases used them for His own purposes and even in some of the cases hardened their hearts Himself.

However, thats not the end of the story. Jesus said that offenses must come, but who to him, by whom they come. Many people see this as predestination. I don't. What this means to me is that an action is determined to happen, but who will perform that action is not determined. God will allow the people themselves to determine what role they are selected to play. For example, in the cases of pharoh and judas.. I don't believe that either one of them had to be the man they were. There is nothing to tell us that at some point in their lives they did not have a genuine chance to serve God, and simply rejected it.
This is part of where the "fear of the Lord" comes in. The bible indicates strongly, in my opinion, that everyone is given a legitimate chance at salvation, however, it is also clear that your not guarenteed more than one chance. It is God who calls and He says "seek the Lord while he may be found". In otherwords, come when your called because you might not be called again. I think that is the case with Judas and Pharoh, they had their call and rejected it and as a result God chose them to be vessels of dishonor and wrath.

@archangel,
There is always great debate between "works" and "grace" the simple fact is that we don't save ourselves, but if we don't obey, we're not going to be saved. People always preach salvation from paul because they have an easier time misrepresenting his words, and making it all easy and attractive, its a much different situation if you look at what Jesus himself had to say about following him and being saved. (incidentaly thats why almost no one preaches salvation according to Jesus... interesting no?)

On suicide,

When I said that there was more to it than the sin of Murder, what I was getting at is that the bible is clear there are two sins which are ultimately unforgivable, first is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, second is to die in unbelief. It should be obvious froms scripture that those who die without faith in Jesus Christ are not saved. Suicide is an act very contradictory to faith, and full of unbelief..the question is it so much so that its impossible to commit suicide and still have faith at the same time?

Klown,
There are always possabilities of extenuating circumstances to be considered, like are you commiting suicide to save your family (as in the case of Erwin Rommel for example) or the guy mentioned earlier who jumped off a bridge.. but in your average suicide, if God purposed someone to end that way, my guess is that they became a vessel of wrath.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

But as I said, you can commit suicide while having faith. For a start, having faith doesn't mean there can't be times when you can't feel God and may even hate Him and sin deliberately. Such periods can even last years, but you are still saved. Secondly in the heat of the moment, gripped by fear or depression you are not in control -you aren't always capable to stop and consider your actions. It'd be nice if when saved our fundamental nature changed to make this stop, but we stay human when saved.

quote:

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Originally posted by Klown:

How does one know that when a person commits suicide, that that isnt what is being pushed for by god?

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What I would say about this is that the LORD does not push for suicide, but he could prevent it from happening, as he is soveriegn.

quote:

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Originally posted by Simon_Templar
as most of you are probably aware from my other posts, I believe that our reality is a mixture of free choice, and predestination. God can take control, but he also offers us the ability to be free. There are two famous cases in scripture that always speak towards predestination, Judas, and Pharoh of the old testament. It is evident that God in both cases used them for His own purposes and even in some of the cases hardened their hearts Himself.

However, thats not the end of the story. Jesus said that offenses must come, but who to him, by whom they come. Many people see this as predestination. I don't. What this means to me is that an action is determined to happen, but who will perform that action is not determined. God will allow the people themselves to determine what role they are selected to play. For example, in the cases of pharoh and judas.. I don't believe that either one of them had to be the man they were. There is nothing to tell us that at some point in their lives they did not have a genuine chance to serve God, and simply rejected it.
This is part of where the "fear of the Lord" comes in. The bible indicates strongly, in my opinion, that everyone is given a legitimate chance at salvation, however, it is also clear that your not guarenteed more than one chance. It is God who calls and He says "seek the Lord while he may be found". In otherwords, come when your called because you might not be called again. I think that is the case with Judas and Pharoh, they had their call and rejected it and as a result God chose them to be vessels of dishonor and wrath...

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quote:

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When I said that there was more to it than the sin of Murder, what I was getting at is that the bible is clear there are two sins which are ultimately unforgivable, first is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit...

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[This message has been edited by chickadoo (edited December 03, 2004).]

uhh...how can you hate God and be saved, that's a very incorrect statement. if the love of God doesn't dwell in your heart, you are not His, and if you die in that state you are not going to heaven(meaning you gonna be cast into a lake of fire). that doesn't mean that God, by His grace and mercy, later on down the road won't bring you back to Him, but there is no gaurentee of that. i know of Christians who have done that.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

[This message has been edited by bennythebear (edited December 03, 2004).]