"It's funny how,the toughest criminals, and thugs and whatever, when they're on the death bed, you know the day they about to fry in the electric chair,all of the sudden they wanna get religious,I heard 9 out of 10 inmates on deathrow are all ultra religious,that's because they know they're about to die,and they're about to meet whatevers after death, it's funny nobody wants to turn to god til its too late, til it's time for you to f**king die.... "

Now when the Glorious Appearing happens and Jesus sets up his Millenial Kingdom or even before that if we happen to die and in Heaven. What would be one face you'd be shocked to see there?

What my buddy said was Hitler. We have no clue if he mended ways with the lord before he took his own life. Another one I thought of was Jeffery Dauhmer.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

[This message has been edited by bennythebear (edited December 01, 2004).]

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What would be one face you'd be shocked to see there?

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quote:

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...a man can't mend his ways with God if he kills himself...that's murder *then instant death.

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Soterion Studios

But on the thread topic - I think loads of criminals/rapists/murderers wil be there. Prisions can have very big Christian communities perhaps because the people there have less to gain by taking the world's stance of denouncing God. Or maybe they have more time to think?

Maybe Che Guevera as well.

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

Back to the topic.

Since I was blasting some old school Hendrix. I'd be shocked if he was there and also Janis Joplin.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

People who might have a better chance of being there than most would thing... Socrates, Plato, Nebuchadnezer, Simon the Sorceror...

I sometimes wonder if Solomon will be there.. most people would expect him to be but he got pretty bad in his older days (mostly because he allowed his pagan wives to influence him).

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

With the ohter serious topics going on here. Isnt it good to have just one fun thread where you can sit and ponder who may or may not be in heaven?

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

so... I saw this one hot girl the other day...

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Soterion Studios

Any thoughts?

but the bigger question is, how are people saved - those before Christ came, or even since he came but say in countries that didn't get the gospel yet (like most of the world for 1700 years after Christ.) Also you can ask questions like about children who die etc etc,

of course we don't know the answer to all these questions, but we don't need to as well, for we know our God and his character, he is JUST and fair, but also merciful and loving. We know the truth in these areas as far as we need to know to live as christians and ambassadors of Christ, fufilling the great commission and his purposes in our life, so even if we don't have all the answers we have enough,

however there are hints in scripture that enlighten things a bit

such as 1 peter 3:18-

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

so Jesus went and preached to the dead of the past. Its just a glimpse, but confirms God's fair and just character, as well as his loving merciful character that MAKES A WAY men to come to him.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

How are people saved?? a very tough question. Within the context of the bible and the cultures who have had the revelation of scripture the question is tough, and its even tougher outside of that

My thoughts on the matter recently have been particularly in refrence to baptism's role in salvation. I'd always been raised in a protestant evangelical non denominational setting that taught that baptism was basicly just a symbolic statement on the part of the believer, and not much more. However, recently I've been re-examining this in light of the scriptures and I have to say, my view is beginning to change some what. Baptism is a much more complex issue than I ever gave it credit for before.

But on salvation in general. I believe the bible supports the idea that people before Jesus were saved the same way people after Jesus are saved. The fact is that the law of moses never saved anyone's soul, and it wasn't given for that purpose. The mosaic covenant is not a covenant of salvation, its a covenant of relationship and physical blessing. The covenant of salvation was the one God made with Abraham and it was not sealed by law, but by faith.
In the old testament people were looking forward in faith to Jesus, we are looking backward in faith to Jesus (and forward if your a futurist in terms of prophecy )
The question remains, what about the remote people's who lived and died without ever knowing of the revelation of scripture?? well Paul I think gives us the answer for this in romans. He says that all men are totaly without excuse because the very invisible things of God are made manifest in his creation. That means even the invisible truths of God's nature can be seen and understood from the creation itself. There is enough that everyone in the world wether they had scripture or not, could and should have known God.
You might ask then, what about the scriptures that say "I am the way the truth and the light, no man comes to the father but by me" and "there is no other name under heaven given by which men may be saved" ?? How can people be saved without knowing Jesus??
I believe the answer to this can be found in scripture as well. Jesus said that no man had seen God except the Son of God (ie Jesus), and Jesus taught that the Father, could only be known through the Son, and this was the very reason the Son came was to teach us of the Father.
Now many people assume that the "God" spoken of in the old testament is God the Father.. however, I think there is a strong case to be made from scripture that it is actually the Son. The name God gives for himself in the Old testament is "the I Am" or jehovah (yahweh) which is probably linked to havah which means "to be". Jesus on several occasions in the New testament, when questioned by the pharisees refered to himself as "I Am" he said to them when they asked who he was "before moses was, I AM" he also said to them "I tell you the truth, if you do not believe that I AM, you will die in your sins". The pharisees knew that he was claiming to be the God who had spoken to moses and the patriarchs. That combined with a few other things leads me to believe that any time God reveals himself to mankind, it is the Son aspect of God. Added to this the creation was made through the Son and by the Son (who is also the Word). As the scripture says, nothing was made that was not made by Him. Thus if creation shows forth God, it stands to reason it shows the Son, (who of course reflects the Father).
Then it is interesting if you consider that the name Jesus, in hebrew is Yeshua (y'shua) which is a shortened form of Yahoshua (joshua). Yahoshua means "yah is salvation" or God is salvation. Y'shua simply means "salvation". So the name that is given by which we may be saved is "God is salvation" or "salvation". Thus I think that anyone who comes to know the true God through his revelation of himself in nature, knows the Son of God, and that if any person has faith that the true God will be their salvation, then they have faith in the name of Jesus.

Now some people would ask, if all that is the case, why do we need the scriptures, the gospel etc... doesn't that just make it more restrictive? No! the example (granted its not a perfect example) I always use here is Mathmatics. The principles of math exist in nature, they were not invented, they were discovered. It is possible for anyone to learn the principles of math from nature.. however, most people will only ever get the very very basics that way, and the possability of error is much much greater. It is much better to learn math from a text book, because you can learn much more, and you have a much better degree of success and much less error. That is why the gospel and scripture are so important, and why it is so important to spread them.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

I've heard many analogies and examples and explanations of how Jesus sacrifice saves us, taking our punnishment, paying our price etc, but the fact is scripture really doesn't say how it works.. it just says it works.. the how is really a mystery. Likewise, the church and what it really entails is somewhat more mysterious than the view that is common among the american church.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

quote:

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Originally posted by simon_templar:
I sometimes wonder if Solomon will be there.. most people would expect him to be but he got pretty bad in his older days (mostly because he allowed his pagan wives to influence him).

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A former black-church member (now some sort of wiccan) that I talked to a couple of times told me that among all of the pagan and satanic religions, the one character in history that they all share is Solomon. I thought even if it's not blanketly true, that it's at least someone thought-provoking.

Hah, on the suicide note, I just had an interesting "what if". So "what if" you hang yourself, but while you're strangling, you regret it and repent though there's nothing you can do about the state you're in, so you die? Or you jump out of a window only to repent on the way down? I don't see murder as any different than any other sin, it's all a ticket to hell. I know that reading Ezekiel we can definately get the idea that our sin is there until we repent, and it's that repenting that removes our sin, but I think it's accurate to say that Christ is our atonement, and if Jesus intercedes for us, then He's already paid all of our sin, past present and future, so we have to be concerned about our faith, not about if we confess sin right after we commit it, or any sort of "last rites" idea.

In Christ,
clint

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http://www.includingjudas.com/christiangame.html

Clint, I wanted to point out too that I'm not saying this as if it were in opposition to what you said, or that I'm correcting, rather that I agree with what you said and these are the thoughts which were spurred by it. Particularly because I've been revisiting alot of the historcial doctrines of the church and there is a strong tradition of believing that sins pile up after our salvation and must be repented of to cleansed... I can't fully escape the weight of tradition to that effect, but I don't think its the full truth either. The truth of redemption is more mysterious, mystical if you will, and yet at the same time so ultimately practical and effective in daily life... it almost makes all my reasoning and arguing seem mean and common by comparison to the sheer beauty that God has expressed in it.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:

eh. too linear thinking. besides, death isn't as instant as you think.

[/B]

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Very true.

Peace
MCL
Nate

quote:

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Originally posted by d000hg:
On a side-topic, what's the general consensus on how many Jews will make it? They're God's chosen people, but since Judaism is tied up with culture/race does that mean any Jew is OK? Or just those who believe? It can't be those who kept the commandmants becuase only Jesus was ever able to do that completely. We had a sermon a while back talking about how David was saved through the future resurrection of Jesus - that the crucifixion resonates through the whole of time.

Any thoughts?

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Remember the parable about the people invited to the wedding that didn't show up?

Peace
MCL
Nate