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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

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I took the road less traveled and now WHERE THE HELL AM I?????

quote:

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I don't think that anyone here has the answer

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I prefer God's answer over ours anyways. And God does provide the answer - in the sixth commandment. To deny this commandment is to deny God's answer. He has made it clear that murder is wrong, and I do not see any exceptions for the unborn.

quote:

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Also, I think that everything happens for a reason.

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Happening for a reason and being the wrong thing to do are not mutually exclusive. There are plenty of examples in the Bible where God turned the wrong thing to do into some good. The story of Joseph in the Old Testament, for example. His brothers did something very wrong, but God turned it into something good. That does not change that it was the wrong thing to do in the first place, though.

quote:

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Well, go ahead and give your opinions, but please don't call me misguided or anything else, no one has a right to judge anyone, no matter who they are. I respect everyone's opinion.

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a. We are all misguided, for we are all sinners.
b. I have not judged you - I am sure you are still a Christian.
c. I do not consider the sixth commandment to be a matter of opinion . . .

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Reasoning with non-believers without encouraging them to read the Bible, I have found, is quite useless. God's word convinces - not our own reason.
--CobraA1

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Writing object code and GUI.

------------------
proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

Anytime in the Old Testament when a nation was about to go under (particularly Israel and Judah were warned of these things, but others as well), several warnings were issued. One recurring issue is that the people would be in such poor, war-torn condition that they would have to eat their babies, or that enemy invaders would rip open pregnant women, etc. In other words, a society in which killing babies becomes "normal" has a high potential for trouble. I would have liked to cite more specific passages, but I don't have my Bible with me at this time.

Another interesting support for pro-life, from an ironic source: the Scott Peterson trials. I don't know all the details, but it seems that he was convicted, not only for the murder of his wife, but also for that of his unborn child. If he was convicted, should not others who murder unborn children expect the same? I do recognize that that is somewhat unrelated and complicated by other factors, but it is an interesting decision.

As always, seek God and His peace.

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I took the road less traveled and now WHERE THE HELL AM I?????

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Im looking down the road of life and.....all i can see is CRAP!!!!

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I shall worship you all of my life. Till death do us together.

It's like people are becoming machines or something, you have to have the perfect words to tell them logically or they will do as they please. I guess that verse was speaking of todays people. "Professing themselves to be wise they became fools."

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If you let your faith go cold enough, there might come a point where you don't want to turn back to God. That would be tragic. -- Quote from Keith Green

3rd Day Studios

[This message has been edited by brandon (edited November 18, 2004).]

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Soterion Studios

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

quote:

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but my thought, and it's just my thought, shouldn't we leave it up to God?

---

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Soterion Studios

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I shall worship you all of my life. Till death do us together.

First of all, it is really an attempt to wrestle control from God in yet another area of our lives. However, don't fool yourselves with illusions of control, either; if God wants a kid born, the kid will be born straight through any number of pills or barriers.

Second of all, there is no way that the methods like pills are completely safe. Nowhere near enough tests have been done to begin to understand the side effects.

While I am nowhere near married myself, I hope that any wife the Lord would send my way would agree that birth control is at the very least way uncool, on grounds of the whole things is somewhat prideful, and the fact that I don't want her getting loopy or slowly poisoned from whatever side effects there have to be.

The Morning After Pill (to my understanding) causes a shedding of the lining that the fertiziled egg is implanted in (or would soon implant in). This can happen naturally, but the Morning After Pill just does it's best to trigger it.

However, if we're talking about the kind of birth control that is not-chemical (either abstinence or barrier), then does that mean you're asking if the idea of trying to avoid pregnancy is bad? The only Biblical case we have of something like this does not apply, because it was his duty to sire a son, and that's what he backed out on (no pun intended), not that he practiced any form of "birth control".

Just my $0.02

--clint

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http://www.includingjudas.com/christiangame.html

[This message has been edited by HanClinto (edited November 18, 2004).]

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Nobody gave more biblical evidence for abortion being murder yet by the way - I'd like to know where it is. Anyone?

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Soterion Studios

What if the woman that wants the abortion was raped? Should she be doomed to have that child, one which she never wanted and also a daily reminder of the horrible evil that happened to her?

or

Incest? Should that woman be forced to have that child if her brother/father forced sex upon her and impregnated her? Or even if it was concentual. Should that baby still be brought into this world?

or

If test's were done and found out that it has a serious birth defect and may not live long even if it was born. Wouldnt be better to just terminate it so it dont have to suffer?

OR

If the pregnancy will kill either the mother or child, even if the mother has a cesarian secetion (< typo i know) it still endanger both the child and mother. Shouldnt it be up to the parent to terminate it?

Yes I believe abortion bad and morally wrong. Yet those are four points that I hold every time I see some one wanting abortion.

Also we have to remember that all through out time, women always had the right to chose wether or not to keep the child. It was always up to the woman in most cultures to either keep or abort the child. Yes herbal remidies where almost always used.

One more thing to think about while talking about Abortion. Do you think this Planet would be as bad off as it is if it was still up to the woman to end her pregnancy if she didnt want it, instead of being persicuted for aborting the unwanted soon to be child? We are already over populated and doing damage beyond fixable with our over population right now.

As for "defects", that seems like Dr. Kavorkian and euthanasia, doesn't it?

If the woman was raped... does that make it ok to murder a child rather than face the possability that she may be reminded of the crime against her? Is it somehow the child's fault that his father was a rapist? Should he be killed for his father's crime? Maybe we should not kill the rapist's children and instead bring the rapist to justice.
This is an example of where people resort to emotional pleas to justify terrible laws. The fact is life is hard, hard things happen, bad things happen to good people. Killing a child isn't going to make that any better. Even if it would, killing a child is still wrong.
Even the emotional side of this argument is terrible because it basicly says, its ok to do something evil if it makes your life easier and less painful.

The case of incest doesn't really contain any different rational than that of rape, thus the answer is the same.

The next question is about a baby with a birth defect (which could also be connected to the incest question I guess). This question also clothes itself in humaneness while at its core being totaly inhuman. The root of this question is the assumption that disabled, disfigured, or somehow diseased people are not quite human. They don't have the same right to live that others do. This question assumes that they are better off dead. I'm sure the Nazi's would agree heartily that babies with birth defects should be killed. I, however, do not.

The last case is the only one which is really questionable. A case in which delivering, or carrying the baby some how threatens the mother's life. It should be noted that this instance is so minute in actuall occurance that it would make up far far less than 1% of all abortions. To make abortion legal simply based on this case would be something like saying its ok to kill people under any circumstances, because there might be a case in which it would be justified by self defense.
In the strict legality of the issue this is not justifiable however. Under law, for a killing to qualify as defense, the person threatening your life must have the intent to kill you. If it is an accident, or simply through recklessness, you are not legaly justified to kill in defense. A baby obviously doesn't have intent to kill its mother. So technicaly, legaly, even this should not be justified. I would, however, in my own opinion say that this should be left up to the decision of the parents. That in no way justifies legalized abortion in all cases.

I think its very debatable that abortion has been accepted practice through out most of history. Especially abortion for any reason. Even if it were, it would be irrelevant. Right and wrong isn't based on what people have done in the past. There are MANY things that were common accepted practice through out the entire world for all of history, in every culture, and yet we recognize them as wrong

------------------
-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

------------------
proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

I don't see how the kid should be screwed also if the mom was raped.

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Soterion Studios

I'd rather live with the abortion then to know i let that much pain and suffering come to such a small precious being.

And the one big question I forgot to post earlier. When is it technically a human? The first trimester? Second? Third? A couple months before it's born when it most resembles a baby human being?

so, you believe in mercy killing? then I take it you believe in killing off people in pain without their consent? just making sure you hold the same view to adults also.
I don't know if people have the right to decide whether life or death is better for another person. it's kinda like playing God.

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Soterion Studios

quote:

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I'd just like to ask a couple simple questions while we're on the topic of abortion.

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Sure.

quote:

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What if the woman that wants the abortion was raped? Should she be doomed to have that child, one which she never wanted and also a daily reminder of the horrible evil that happened to her?

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Ask them: Is this enough to kill an innocent child? What crime did the child commit,to deserve the death penalty? If my neighbor looked like Hitler, and I was a survivor of the holocaust, and looking at this man caused me great pain, would that be just cause to kill a full-grown man?

Rape and incest are very wrong, but try to point out that the child is innocent, and we should not punish the innocent for another's crime.

quote:

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If the pregnancy will kill either the mother or child, even if the mother has a cesarian secetion (< typo i know) it still endanger both the child and mother. Shouldnt it be up to the parent to terminate it?

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In this case, both lives are at risk. This is a life-or-death situation for both. I would say this could be just cause for an exception. But the rule should remain.

quote:

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If test's were done and found out that it has a serious birth defect and may not live long even if it was born. Wouldnt be better to just terminate it so it dont have to suffer?

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A tough question, for sure. I would say that I'd treat them with the same love I'd have for a person dying of cancer. They may not live long, and may be in pain, but that does not mean they can't enjoy the little time they have left on this earth.

quote:

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instead of being persicuted for aborting the unwanted soon to be child? We are already over populated and doing damage beyond fixable with our over population right now.

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That is the problem, isn't it? People don't value or enjoy life anymore, everybody becomes just a number, just another body.

And overpopulation is a seperate problem. Anybody who complains about it is confusing two issues and creating a red herring.

And IMHO, overpopulation isn't that big of a problem - how much growth are we seeing in the U.S., as compared to Africa? In many third-world countries, large families (we're talking 8-10 children) aren't uncommon. It appears that at some point, people just start having smaller families. IMHO, when the population becomes large enough, it will naturally stabalize.

quote:

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And the one big question I forgot to post earlier. When is it technically a human? The first trimester? Second? Third? A couple months before it's born when it most resembles a baby human being?

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Yes, a lot of times people try to do line drawing. Unfortunately, there's no real good line to draw, bar one:

Conception is a very brief event, and is the moment when the fetus is an individual, and shares the mother's and father's DNA. At that moment, I see no reason to claim it as the mother's or father's, for it has its own DNA, and that is reason to consider it an individual.

quote:

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Yes I believe abortion bad and morally wrong. Yet those are four points that I hold every time I see some one wanting abortion.

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I understand. However you respond to them, do it lovingly, and try to gently remind them of how valuable life really is.

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Reasoning with non-believers without encouraging them to read the Bible, I have found, is quite useless. God's word convinces - not our own reason.
--CobraA1

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Writing object code and GUI.

quote:

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We are already over populated and doing damage beyond fixable with our over population right now.

---

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Soterion Studios

Every time you pose a question... well should we allow abortion in this case? you should consider it from this point of view.. would it be permisable to kill an adult in this circumstance? Because a life is a life. It is irrelevant how old the life is. Either the reason for taking life is justified or it isn't.. it doesn't matter how old the life is, how intelligent the life is, how able the life is.

So, do you think population problems would be a good reason to start liguidating people? or don't you?

On top of that, the population scare, much like most of the other "environmentalist" issues is based more on hype and scare tactics than actual information and reality. The fact is that the earth is easily capable of supporting a number of people vastly larger than what we currently have. The current population of the world could easily be supported by the food production of the United States alone. The only reason there is famine and starvation and such things is the political problems most of the world suffers due to petty dictators and the like.
Most of the "oh no! we have to do something" scare about population is based on what the majority demographic community knows to be wildly inaccurate projections of the earths population growth. The earths population growth follows the ability of people to be fed. This is a historical fact. As technology has increased the food production capability the population has grown proportionately.
There is no reason to believe that its even possible for the human population to grow beyond what can be supported. This has never been the case. The only instances of population becoming unsupportable have been due to bad weather cycles (such as the early 1300's in europe) during low tech eras when people were more heavily dependant on good weather to produce good crop yeilds, or natural disasters.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

but, one thing to note: pop grows exponentially.
so... basically.
invest in space programs. and in worm-hole technology.

I love how we can go from abortion to quantum physics.
okay, that's just me...

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Soterion Studios

I'd love to see where you got your statistics on this one. The United States can barely feed what we have already with out importing goods from Canada and Mexico to help support our population.

NO I dont it to be a life until the second trimester. That's when the female body will either except it's growth or expell it.

As for an elderly person that is in constant pain and suffering and wants to terminate their life. Let them, I have no problem with it what so ever. Yes it may be moraly wrong, yet it's their "Choice". Not mine, not yours and not up to anyone else but them. Is it suicide, yes. Are they capable of knowing that there is no second chances, Yes. Unlike depressed people who make up the vast majority of suicide's, who dont look at the aftermath of what is gonna happen.

Am I "Pro Choice"? If by following them four questions. Yes I guess I am. Do I bring up valid questions and serious thoughts by them four questions? Yes and I'll stand by them every time.

Ohhh the adoption option. Giving up the child for adoption,"if it survives the first trimest". Yes it's a good option, but with all the opportunities with Fertile drugs and people having children later in life due that and surrogate mothers carrying their soon to be child. Adoption isnt that much of an answer any more. Their mainly gonna live in the hands of the state and go from group home to group home. Not really much of a life that is, That's if they survive the first trimester.

quote:

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I'd love to see where you got your statistics on this one. The United States can barely feed what we have already with out importing goods from Canada and Mexico to help support our population.

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And I'd love to see yours. Look at Kansas agricultural production alone, look at our exports.

quote:

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NO I dont it to be a life until the second trimester. That's when the female body will either except it's growth or expell it.

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Why is your line any better than conception?

quote:

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Yes it may be moraly wrong, yet it's their "Choice".

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So "choice" trumps morals now??

quote:

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Why are countries like China and Japan setting limits to children a family can have?

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Be it natural or law-driven, it does indeed seem that they have smaller families . It appears we can adapt.

quote:

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Do I bring up valid questions and serious thoughts by them four questions? Yes and I'll stand by them every time.

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Have I answered the four questions? Yup, and I'll do it every time.

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Reasoning with non-believers without encouraging them to read the Bible, I have found, is quite useless. God's word convinces - not our own reason.
--CobraA1

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Writing object code and GUI.

My line isnt any better then conception. Yet it's a better view of it then conception. Why? Because it's past the first trimester and the mothers womb accepts it and wont dispurse it. That's when we know it'll grow into a child of some form, either healthy or downsyndrome or what ever birth defect it may have. Yet it is a life in my eyes after. I hope you can see where i'm comming from with that.

Yes "choice" trumps morals. It's their choice, even if it is moraly wrong. It's not in my power to enforce something on some one, even if It is morally wrong or isnt. I'll do what ever I can to stop it, yet it's their choice. Just like it's your "choice" debate me over this subject instead of being forced into it.

quote:

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Originally posted by Klown:
Okay, if the earth isnt being over populated right now. Why is the Earth only has about 10% of forest's left?

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Have you seen the pictures? I saw a picture from 100 years ago with a few trees here and there and a picture of what that is now and its a forest.

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I shall worship you all of my life. Till death do us together.

quote:

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Originally posted by Klown:
That's when we know it'll grow into a child of some form, either healthy or downsyndrome or what ever birth defect it may have. Yet it is a life in my eyes after. I hope you can see where i'm comming from with that.

---

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http://www.includingjudas.com/christiangame.html

quote:

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Ahhh Cobra. It seems like you're the only that has looked at my questions with an open mind and not just fly off the wall and flame me. I like that and comend it.

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Thanks. I was a bit worried about my last post, though - it was sorta rushed - I had to got to work. Note to self: Do not surf forums in the mornings . . .

quote:

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My line isnt any better then conception. Yet it's a better view of it then conception. Why? Because it's past the first trimester and the mothers womb accepts it and wont dispurse it. That's when we know it'll grow into a child of some form, either healthy or downsyndrome or what ever birth defect it may have. Yet it is a life in my eyes after. I hope you can see where i'm comming from with that.

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Well, first things first - I checked out the facts:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/invoke.cfm?objectid=5BDD739C-4068-44CC-AA68C42A79116B33

And you are correct, most natural miscarriages happen in the first 12 weeks.

You're actually making me think here . This is an argument I haven't heard before.

But we've got a hitch here - miscarriages generally happen because of defects or other conditions that can harm the baby. Which means, if we are to use this as a guide for abortions, we should do the same - only if we know the child has a serious defect should we allow the abortion.

This also leads to a question - do natural abortions neccessarily give us permission to allow artificial abortions?

I will leave my question open for discussion for now.

quote:

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Yet it is a life in my eyes after.

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Be careful with the word "life" - using the biological definition of the word "life", the fetus is always alive.

quote:

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Yes "choice" trumps morals. It's their choice, even if it is moraly wrong.

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I would argue otherwise. If I really hated my neighbor, and chose to kill him, would "choice" in this matter trump morals? I would say no. "choice" should not trump morals.

quote:

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It's not in my power to enforce something on some one,

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Of course not, enforcement is the government's job.

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Reasoning with non-believers without encouraging them to read the Bible, I have found, is quite useless. God's word convinces - not our own reason.
--CobraA1

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Writing object code and GUI.

For example, on the "population crisis" issue, you say Japan has imposed child limitations of 2 boys and 1 girl because they are suffering from over population. I have never heard of such a limitation in Japan, and so I went looking to see if it was true. I could find, after searching for some time, no trace of any such limitation. It may exist and I maybe didn't find it.
However, I have my doubts because the actual fact is that Japan, like virtually every other industrialized nation in the world is actually suffering from negative natural population growth (the US's natural population growth is one of the highest in the industrialized world at .6%) I should clarify that natural growth rate is the growth due to births, it does not include immigration. Immigration however isn't really over all world population growth, its just people moving from one place to another.
The negative population growth, or very small population growths among the industrialized nations is actually nearing the level of a crisis. In germany and most of the scandanavian countries the governments have actually resorted to paying stipends to any citizens for each new child that is born. Japan is among those facing the worst of this crisis. This is less severe in the US but it is a problem here as well particularly visible in the problems we are having with the social security system.
The most visible problem with declining population is that it creats top heavy societies. Societies in which there are more elderly and retired people than there are active working middle aged people. This is disasterous to economy. this is why social security is going to fail. Its not if, its when.

So, the industrialized nations are facing a crisis of negative population growth because their fertility rates are below what is needed to maintain even zero population growth. What about the rest of the world?

Predictions of the "population bomb" are all based on models using exponential population growth that never ends. This is totaly unrealistic. The actuall facts show that over the last decade the world wide fertility rate (that is births per 1000 people) has decreased and all trends show it continuing to decrease. The reason that population growth has not yet ceased and turned around is because the longevity of people (life span) is increasing due to better medicine, nutrition, standards of living, and technology. Pretty much all the credible scientific models of population growth show the earth's total population peaking at about 9 billion around 2050, and then beginning going into a decreasing cycle.

You ask the question, "Okay, if the earth isnt being over populated right now. Why is the Earth only has about 10% of forest's left?" The first thing that pops into my head is "10% of what?" percentages are relative numbers.. to say 10% means nothing unless you tell what it is 10% of... this thought prompted me to find out.. what percentage of the world's surface was forest, and what percentage is forest now... My search lead me to the following statistics (most of which, it should be noted are taken from environmentalist groups).

Original percentage of the earth's landmass which was covered by forest was, 48%. Current percentage of the earth's landmass covered by forests and woodlands 31%
several of the environmental groups I looked at were bemoaning the fact that only 1/5th of the world's forests exist in their original untouched state... 1/5th is 20% so 20% of the worlds forests havn't even been touched by the hand of man.

I know for a fact that in the US for example, there is more forest land now than there was 100 years ago.
Most of the forest destruction in the world happens in brazil and africa, and it is due largely to the fact that the land quality is so poor that the peasant farmers can only farm the same fields one year and then they need to get new fields which they hack and burn out of the rain forests.
Of the world's rain forests, about 50% of the original land coverage (which was about 14% of the earths landmass) still remains.

As for my comments on food production and the US's capability. First of all, a large percentage of the US's farmland is not farmed every year because the government actively pays farmers not to farm it. I'm not talking about land that could be cleared and farmed, I'm talking about cleared and plowed fields that sit empty because the government doesn't want the farmers grow the crops so they pay them not to. I come from a farming community so I know this first hand. The reason the government pays them not to farm large chunks of land is because as it is, the US food production produces a huge surpluss every year, a large portion of which is bought by the government and literaly tons upon tons sit and rot in government storage because they have nothing to do with it. If farmers produced what they were capable of, it would destroy not only the US grain market, but probably the world grain market with over supply.

anyway, bed time for me

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

That's why I said the U.S. can barely feed it's self. We have to much unused farmlands that could do so much more good if they was actually used. I grew up in Arkansas and parts of Texas, Mississippi, Misouri and Kansas. I know how much land that could be used, isnt.

Now I might have mistaken, yet i dont believe so. I read some where that Japan has been limiting Families in size to 2 boys and 1 girl. Now it could have been china. Yet as I said, I may have made a mistake. I read alot and also do a lot research into things like that. Just some thing I like to do. As for the 10% of forrest's. It's from another thing I've read with a lot of background and actual facts. "Which may have well been false. I really havent looked into it lately."

Yet back to the orriginal post and topic. I still do believe Abortion is bad, yet it shouldnt be totatly condemed either. As I said, there are four points I believe a woman has the right to decide to keep it or abort it.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Klown:
Now HanClinto, I hope you did see why I said some form. By "some form" I'm not implying it'll be a dog or cat, that's just redicilous. Please. By me saying some form, I'm meaning by perfictly healthy or with a birth defect, or missing limb or extra limb, "which has happened". I didnt think I woulda had to clariffy myself. Yet I see now I shoulda.

---

Then there's 2 questions that follow:
Does a mother have a responsibility to put her baby to death for reasons of birth defect? I.E. is it better to kill a baby before it reaches any further into childhood if it's got a defect?
That's one that I don't have an easy answer to. As a private-care nurse, my mom worked in a couple of different people's homes helping to watch over children who had diseases and problems that needed constant attention and caused a lot of pain. It's a tough situation, and one that I'm not sure about, but I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't say blanketly that mothers should kill their unconscious babies at the chance they won't be able to lead a "normal" life. Many people have led great lives despite birth defects -- I don't know how much you've read of Helen Keller, but the short quotes that I've come across are incredibly encouraging, yet she was deaf, mute and blind from birth.

Thanks for your posts, I've really enjoyed your presence here on the CCN boards, and I hope I haven't ever "flamed" you at any of your comments -- if I have, I sincerely apologize.

Respectfully,
clint

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http://www.includingjudas.com/christiangame.html

One simple little question now, debating aside - what is everyone's beliefs? One simple answer, pro-choice? or pro-life?

As for me, no matter anyone's thoughts, I am pro-choice.

Although, call me a hypocrite, but if I was female, and even if it was a rape or whatever, I would either keep it or put it up for adoption.

I can't really explain it, but there it is.

P.S. We may all be misguided, so don't point it out, it is embarrasing to yourself and insulting to whom you are telling. Plus you aren't high enough to label people.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

------------------
proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

quote:

---

This also leads to a question - do natural abortions neccessarily give us permission to allow artificial abortions?

---

Hoping to get a little bit of discussion, but oh well.

I've thought about it, and here's my view:

This seems to go back to the idea that what's natural is also better or more right. Unfortunately, I have to disagree with such a philosophy - earthquakes and other disastors are natural, but cause loss of life. Natural medicines can have side effects, just like artificial ones. And so on and so forth . . .

So in my opinion, just because a woman's body can naturally abort a baby in the first trimester does not neccessarily give us a moral right to do so in the first trimester. For now, I'll stick with my current views.

And to be honest, I find it difficult to believe that the U.S. does not produce enough food for itself. The entire U.S. produced 348.3 million metric tons of grain in 2003. The U.S. population is currently about 293.6 million people. That's about 1.186 tons of grain per person per year, or about 7.17 pounds (115 ounces) every day. That's 24 cups per day per person, if I have all of my conversions correct.

Sources:
http://www.usda.gov/nass/pubs/agr04/acro04.htm
http://www.prb.org/
http://www.angelfire.com/bc/incredible/weightmeasure.html

The reason for subsidizing, BTW, is economics: If farmers were to use all their land, the supply will of course increase, and prices will fall.

A lot. In fact, they would fall so much that farming would be unprofitable, and farmers would be forced into bankruptcy.

And that would pretty much kill our food supply. The reason for subsidies is to stabalize our food supply, and prevent this sort of thing from hapenning.

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I read some where that Japan has been limiting Families in size to 2 boys and 1 girl. Now it could have been china.

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I heard that also - I think it was China.

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Reasoning with non-believers without encouraging them to read the Bible, I have found, is quite useless. God's word convinces - not our own reason.
--CobraA1

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[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited November 22, 2004).]

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conception. it's the only logical point. new DNA is formed. growth is now seperate from parents; it begans to develop as its own being. even though it's mental processes haven't been developed, it's human and it's own being.

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Still no more prrof for why abortion is murder, other than 'thou shalt not kill'. Which apparently should be translated as 'murder'. Are there no other biblical references we can look at for either argument?

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Well the fetus cannot live without the mother's protected environment (womb) and blood (umbilical cord) for the first 6 months at the least, apart from the first few devisions when a test-tube can be used.

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And many people can't live without life support machines. Dependency doesn't change anything.

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I don't think it's as black and white as that.

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If you have a grey area to discuss, feel free to discuss it.

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Still no more prrof for why abortion is murder, other than 'thou shalt not kill'. Which apparently should be translated as 'murder'.

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The sixth commandment isn't a proof, it's a command.

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Are there no other biblical references we can look at for either argument?

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Sure, here's an article you should read about the Bible and abortion:
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/prolife.html

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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This has been a healthy and heated debate since I've come here and started posting. Eye opening for some and soul searching too. Yet it just show's how everyone is different in how they hold things in their hearts and pray for.

NO for Cobra's question. No natrual abortions are different then artificial ones. Natural Abortions or misscarriages happen for many different reasons. One of my best friends had 6 misscarriages and it was heart breaking to see her suffer after her body expelled the soon be lil one. I know a few people would love to have a child yet their bodies cant handle the stress of having a child grow in them for 9 months. There are a lot of people out there that would love to have their own children who physically cant.

Okies now back to HanClinto.
I've never dealt with lil children who suffered those problems. Yet I have helped take care of a couple later in life. One of them being my Grandfather who had Alzhiemers and also a disease that hardened the arrtieries and viens in his body. He lost a leg due to that disease. I've also helped take care of a neighbor for a while when I lived in the projects. She was born smaller legs and arms which were crippled from birth. Yet when she got older, she could move her arms a lil. She couldnt open her hands or totally straighten her arms. I know how she suffered and the pain and depression she suffered and still does. She's been talked out of suicide a couple times. I know hard and painful living with dibilitating disease can be. I"ve seen it first hand, just not in a smaller younger body.
Now does that give the parent a right to end that lil life? No, we have no idea if there will ever be a cure for some of those diseases or mental handicaps that may be solved some time down the road. Yet none of this is brought up in the couple of questions i've asked.

The question was ... If test's were done and found out that it has a serious birth defect and may not live long even if it was born. Wouldnt be better to just terminate it so it dont have to suffer?

In this case I'd live with the abortion on my heart and soul. And no I cant talk for anyone else but me. Yet this is how I fell.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Where I come from, we call that a "double standard" . . .

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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Cobra, I've noticed you don't see much grey area. I once thought in a black and white way. This world is full of grey. The whole thou shalt not kill thing, well, in war people are killed, in motor accidents people are killed. Is there no grey area? Well, enough rambling for now.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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------------------
proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

but as your bucket of sperm yes, they would be people, though would die from being in a bucket without an enviroment to grow, so the bucketeer would be quite immoral to do such a thing, but really its not a pro-lifer attitude, its a christian attitude, for we are fearfully and wonderfully made, knitted together in our mothers wombs by God himself, maybe its a bunch of cells that devide and a baby is formed by programming code embed in DNA, but its programmed by God, and God is in control of the universe, including 'accidents' and unplanned and unwanted babies are wanted and loved by him, with God plans and purposes for their lives, predestined from before the beginning of time, God says himself he is doing the knitting, not just letting something happen from a distance, and to medical science it is still a mystery HOW it happens, they know the dna, they can watch the cells seperating, and becoming different parts and organs, but HOW, they do not know.. if God knows and cares about every hair on my head, he surely is present at every cell devision.
have you ever heard of embryo adoption?, christians (often who can't get pregnant, but ones also who can), who adopt an embryo (ussually a spare EXTRA one or many fertilised for IVF treatment).

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited November 23, 2004).]

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Originally posted by bennythebear:
a little off subject, but what about birth control? does anyone here think it's wrong? i don't know one way or the other, if i ever get married i'll leave that up to my wife. but my thought, and it's just my thought, shouldn't we leave it up to God?

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What I say is this; if you don't like the heat , then GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN (HEAT SOURCE)!

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sory bowt mi speling

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Originally posted by Klown:
I'd just like to ask a couple simple questions while we're on the topic of abortion.

What if the woman that wants the abortion was raped? Should she be doomed to have that child, one which she never wanted and also a daily reminder of the horrible evil that happened to her?

or

Incest? Should that woman be forced to have that child if her brother/father forced sex upon her and impregnated her? Or even if it was concentual. Should that baby still be brought into this world?

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2 kings 14:6: But the children of the murderers he slew not: according unto that which is written in the book of the law of Moses, wherein the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

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originally posted by Klumsy
but as your bucket of sperm yes, they would be people, though would die from being in a bucket without an enviroment to grow, so the bucketeer would be quite immoral to do such a thing.

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strictly speaking not true, as in new england to make farm raised salmon they squeeze the eggs out of a female fish, sperm out of a male fish, mix it up, and throw it in a fish hatchery. but then again, that's fish.
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sory bowt mi speling

[This message has been edited by chickadoo (edited November 23, 2004).]

Cobra - I have no clue where the lines are, a lot of the time I can't see the lines. I think it simply starts to blur, but oh well.

Thank you all again, and by all means, keep posting!
Max

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

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If the fetus and mother are biologically linked as the same flesh, are they not one life?

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They aren't linked as the same flesh. A placenta divides them, and keeps the blood supply seperate. The DNA is also seperate, and very different from the mother's. If it is to the point where it has a brain, the fetus even thinks seperately from the mother.

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If you got a bucket of eggs and a bucket of sperms (don't ask why!) and mixed them, many fertilisations could happen - would they all be considered people to pro-lifers? It's not quite such a flip question as it sounds

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Why not?

That's the problem, if they're not "people" we can dispose of them. That's exactly the mindset of the slave owners our nation used to have.

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Cobra - I have no clue where the lines are, a lot of the time I can't see the lines. I think it simply starts to blur, but oh well.

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That's the problem, though - if we don't have lines, then people will make up their own, even to extremes. The "shades of grey" philosophy isn't always as good as it sounds. Yes, there are times when it is useful. But not always. If I were a lawmaker, I'd need a definite line in order to have a law that is clear and enforceable. For that reason, most laws are made with a generally black and white philosophy.

Seeing in shades of grey is useless without being able to recognize the different shades. Many times, the "shades of grey" aren't real logical problems: They're often emotional problems. Emotions are nice, but I do not base my morals on them, for morals are fickle, and depending on them for judging major moral problems can lead to problems.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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quote:

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Originally posted by CobraA1:
quote:
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If the fetus and mother are biologically linked as the same flesh, are they not one life?
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Of coruse they are not one life. that would be to say that the mother had 4 feet, and (L.O.L.) 2 Brains! this is, of course, ridiculous.

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sory bowt mi speling

[This message has been edited by chickadoo (edited November 26, 2004).]

Even tho as I've said, Abortion is wrong. Yet we need to have a few options as in teh questions i've asked. It's not up to the government to regulate either. No matter how much they want to or think they can.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

the issue we have with with THOSe questions, maybe one of them (a medicial situation where only the mother can be saved) is valid, while the others , though tragic , are not valid to end a humans life, nor is it valid or scientific, moral in anyway to state that the 1st or 2nd trisemester is when a squisgy blob in the tummy becomes a human.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

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It's not up to the government to regulate either. No matter how much they want to or think they can.

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Soterion Studios

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Yet we need to have a few options as in teh questions i've asked.

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In the case of the mother being in danger, or the child being severely defective, perhaps.

For rape and incest, the father should be severely punished, but not the baby. I cannot see being given a choice for abortion in those cases, sorry. I do not believe in punishing the innocent for a crime somebody else committed.

------------------
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
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------------------
proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

[This message has been edited by bennythebear (edited November 27, 2004).]

And I thought we was all intelegent there (flame away, I'll be ready to give it right back)

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

so why does it regulate murder? because.. oh, the victims have a chance to defend themselves?

although, I must say, being tossed a shotgun is kind of an adrenaline rush...

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Soterion Studios

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It's not up to the government to regulate either.

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Why not? Do you have a good reason why the government shouldn't?

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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My word is not law, and that is my thoughts.

Also, on the whole lines issue, look at law today. A man shoots someone in self defense. He should be guilty if there is no grey. By creating the lines you entitle yourself to be cold, uncaring and lazy. It requires no thought, emotions, or feelings. God can not move you if there are bright lines. So we ask ourselves, should we prosecute the man who defends himself and his family against an evil, or should we be lenient that he didn't want anything horrible to befall his family. Choice is yours my friends.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

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Well, it depends on whether or not you think it is a murder.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I think isn't worth beans - it's what God thinks that is important.

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1 - It may not be totally human yet.

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Of course not. It could be a cow, or a giraffe, or a mouse [img=http://www.christiancoders.com/ubb/icons/icon15.gif].

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2 - After conception, cells start to rapidly divide (I am going to be a pharmacists, lots of bio ) and untill day four we are inside of an egg.

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I may not be an embryologist, but I'd like support for that claim - I've never heard that. In any case, how does that relate to abortion? Four days is way too short, they don't even know they're pregnent yet!

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3 - If a woman is raped, and she becomes pregnant, it is kinda a tough decision

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I do not disagree, but the toughness of the decision does not mean that both choices are equal ethically.

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1-c. She aborts the child, and gains closure

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No, closure is gained by sending the guy who raped the woman to jail. If the guy is still running free to repeat his crime, there would be no closure, regardless of whether the baby was aborted.

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A man shoots someone in self defense. He should be guilty if there is no grey.

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Self defense is usually taken into account in most legal structures.

Of course I didn't say we should have no "grey" anywhere. It's just that without lines, things tend to fall into anarchy pretty quickly.

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By creating the lines you entitle yourself to be cold, uncaring and lazy.

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Of course killing an unborn, innocent child is nice, warm, fuzzy and caring, right? I beg to differ.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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quote:

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1 - It may not be totally human yet.

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2 - After conception, cells start to rapidly divide (I am going to be a pharmacists, lots of bio ) and untill day four we are inside of an egg. At day four we "hatch" out of the egg. Sometimes it does not go as planned, and the hole is a little small or misshapened. The small bag of cells will get out any way it can. At day four, the bag of cells has a will to survive.

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3 - If a woman is raped, and she becomes pregnant, it is kinda a tough decision.

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1-c. She aborts the child, and gains closure, maybe a sense of regret, but can be put out of the mind.

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God can not move you if there are bright lines.

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Soterion Studios

quote:

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Originally posted by Klown:
What if the woman that wants the abortion was raped? Should she be doomed to have that child, one which she never wanted and also a daily reminder of the horrible evil that happened to her?

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First and foremost, this would be a terrible and traumatic experience for any woman. It would be something that would always stay with her and never leave. Killing her unborn child would not ease her pain...the emotional pain stems from the act, not the result (child). She obviously is not required to keep the child, however, to have an abortion and kill the child would not help her emotional wounds heal, and on the contrary, in the majority of cases, just inflicts the additional wound of guilt. The "being reminded daily" part is akin to a woman having, say, a 2 year old who looks just like the very abusive ex-husband. Killing the child so as not to be reminded of him is obviously not in any way right, nor would it hold up in a court setting. What makes a couple of years age difference so vastly different? As a side note, God could have prevented conception if it was in His will to do so. He isn't sitting up in Heaven saying, "Aww, man, I didn't want her to get pregnant!" As someone else said, God can turn even the most awful situations (perhaps rape, and impregnation) into something for His glory (perhaps the child grows up to be a preacher who will win millions to God).

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Originally posted by Klown:
Incest? Should that woman be forced to have that child if her brother/father forced sex upon her and impregnated her? Or even if it was concentual. Should that baby still be brought into this world?

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Same as above.

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Originally posted by Klown:
If test's were done and found out that it has a serious birth defect and may not live long even if it was born. Wouldnt be better to just terminate it so it dont have to suffer?

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I believe that if it was God's will for the child to not be born, He would have caused the woman to miscarry, or else prevented conception in the first place. God doesn't place the responsibility of determining life on our shoulders. If the baby lived 3 days after birth before dying, I would have to think that God had to have a reason for not having the child pass away beforehand. God doesn't make mistakes.

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Originally posted by Klown:
If the pregnancy will kill either the mother or child, even if the mother has a cesarian secetion (< typo i know) it still endanger both the child and mother. Shouldnt it be up to the parent to terminate it?

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Not going to put my opinion, as this is the only one with possible validity, however slight it might be.

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Originally posted by Klown:
Also we have to remember that all through out time, women always had the right to chose wether or not to keep the child. It was always up to the woman in most cultures to either keep or abort the child. Yes herbal remidies where almost always used.

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All through out time there has been idol worship, for example, also. Just because they did something "through out time" doesn't make it right or ok by God. Morality is based on right and wrong, not past or present.

Also, I was curious about the life-starts-in-second-trimester opinion. When exactly would be the "starting" point for life? Would it be the day the second trimester starts? More specifically, would it be the exact hour and minute that starts the second trimester? There has to be an instant in time in which the "nonliving" fetus/child becomes a "living" fetus/child. Or does it morph into life over the span of several weeks? And if so, what exactly is it during the "linking" span between nonliving and living? Would it be murder to kill them during the morphing state?

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Originally posted by Klown:
Yes "choice" trumps morals. It's their choice, even if it is moraly wrong. It's not in my power to enforce something on some one, even if It is morally wrong or isnt. I'll do what ever I can to stop it, yet it's their choice.
Even tho as I've said, Abortion is wrong. Yet we need to have a few options as in teh questions i've asked. It's not up to the government to regulate either. No matter how much they want to or think they can.

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So, if abortion is morally wrong (AKA sin), it would be in the same category as murder, rape, stealing, etc. Do you feel that the government should not regulate these sins as well? "The right to choose" would be more correctly termed "the right to sin." Just because God gave us free will and the ability to sin against Him doesn't mean nothing should be prohibited. Side note: whether or not abortion is legal/allowable or not doesn't affect a woman's "right to choose" -- murders and thieves also have the "right to choose" to murder or rob, regardless of illegality.

Oh, whoops, was I up on that soapbox? Sorry... I'll take my newbie nose back out of y'all's discussion. I am interested on Klown's opinion of this is...especially interested in your view of the second trimester thing.

Anyhow, I'm going to go now, lol. God bless!

~Deirdre

[This message has been edited by Deirdregirl (edited November 28, 2004).]

"The "being reminded daily" part is akin to a woman having, say, a 2 year old who looks just like the very abusive ex-husband. Killing the child"

Okay, good point there. Yet you think it'd be saving that child (if it survived the first trimester) and was born and lived, be suffering even more down the line when what you just said starts to happen? I've lived with that reminder daily. My mother was molested and raped. We dont know if I am the by product of that rape or if my mother was already pregnant when the raped happend. Yet the one that claimed me as his, wanted the abortion. YOu know what it feels like to have your dad tell you that you shoulda been aborted? How about your mother? I can go through countless nights of having my mother sit and holler at me wishing she could kill me and get rid of the mistake that never shoulda happend.

Incest. Never should happen and I still feel and agree that if a woman wants to abort, then she has all the right in the world.

"Also, I was curious about the life-starts-in-second-trimester opinion. When exactly would be the "starting" point for life? Would it be the day the second trimester starts? More specifically, would it be the exact hour and minute that starts the second trimester?"

Do we ever know when conception has ever happened? Didnt think so. I can not tell you when the second trimester starts on any women. Yet, it's not hard to know when one is in it with regular check ups. You're told how far along you are and you know what trimester you're in.

Alright, One question back to you. If miscarrages happen the most in the first trimester and the woman has a miscarrage. Is she commiting a murder? Her body naturally aborted, so by what you're saying and a few others here, Is she herself commiting a murder?

Murder, Rape, Stealing and what ever. That's just a ridiculous stance on any thing in this thread, yet as you and i do believe archangel and maybe one other person has said the same thing to me. I understand where y'all are coming from, yet by chance it dont look like y'all see my side of the view. I can understand that and dont take nothing personaly.

Now I'm letting this dead horse say dead and gonna stop beating it. I've stated how I feel and stated why I feel that way. I"ve said a few about me personally that only my mother, sister, and counsilor knows. I have legitimate reason's for my stance. Now I'm done with this topic of abortion and you wont see a post from me here any more.

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The most dangerous person is one who believes they're a "Pretty Good Christian" = Mel Odom, Author of the Left Behind Apocalypse Book Series.

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My mother was molested and raped. We dont know if I am the by product of that rape or if my mother was already pregnant when the raped happend. Yet the one that claimed me as his, wanted the abortion. YOu know what it feels like to have your dad tell you that you shoulda been aborted? How about your mother? I can go through countless nights of having my mother sit and holler at me wishing she could kill me and get rid of the mistake that never shoulda happend.

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I see. The only mistake is that you don't have loving parents, which is pretty sad. But just because your parents have problems does not make you a mistake, nor does it mean you don't have a future. I hate to say this, but your parents probably have deeper problems, and are just letting it out on you. I doubt their problems would go away if you weren't born, or if you got killed.

My sister knows somebody who was in your position - his mother (or one of his other relatives) always put him down, told him he was fat and stuff. And he believed her. You seem to be in the same position: Your parents are making you feel inadequate by taking out their frustration on you.

Back to my sister's friend: By preying on his feelings of inadequacy, his relative was able to control him. Fortunately, he met my sister, and after meeting her and many discussions with her, he realized that his relative was wrong, and that he shouldn't feel inadequate.

Your emotional problem is not with abortion, it is with inadequacy and control. You need to deal with the main issue, not a side issue. Abortion is not the answer to your problem, or to your parents' problems.

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I'm going to finish my writing on abortion now.

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Incest. Never should happen and I still feel and agree that if a woman wants to abort, then she has all the right in the world.

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Who gave her that right?

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Do we ever know when conception has ever happened? Didnt think so.

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Uh-huh. Assuming we don't know the answer, eh?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but when the first sperm reaches the egg, an electromagnetic event happens that prevents any more sperm from fusing with the egg. This only lasts a fraction of a second, which is short enough to say that this is when conception happens.

Even if you strech it to include when the DNA have intermingled to form new DNA, the event is very short. Yes, we know when conception happens.

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Alright, One question back to you. If miscarrages happen the most in the first trimester and the woman has a miscarrage. Is she commiting a murder? Her body naturally aborted, so by what you're saying and a few others here, Is she herself commiting a murder?

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Miscarriages are beyond the mother's control, and usually a result of something terribly wrong with the baby. Abortion is not.

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Now I'm letting this dead horse say dead and gonna stop beating it. I've stated how I feel and stated why I feel that way

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You have turned over a new leaf by revealing the source of your position on this issue. I'm afraid this discussion is far from over.

Our feelings about the matter are not relevent, IMHO. The sixth commandment is hardly an issue of feelings.

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

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Hey, there is no good or bad, the universe doesn't take sides, except for like positive/negative charges. You just gotta go with the flow, atheist style - whatever happens, happens - and the universe wouldn't be much different without ya, unless you were going to mess around with it on a large scale.

*glances at my Black Hole generator*

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Okay, good point there. Yet you think it'd be saving that child (if it survived the first trimester) and was born and lived, be suffering even more down the line when what you just said starts to happen? I've lived with that reminder daily. My mother was molested and raped. We dont know if I am the by product of that rape or if my mother was already pregnant when the raped happend. Yet the one that claimed me as his, wanted the abortion. YOu know what it feels like to have your dad tell you that you shoulda been aborted? How about your mother? I can go through countless nights of having my mother sit and holler at me wishing she could kill me and get rid of the mistake that never shoulda happend.

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thank you klown (may i know you real name) for being vulnerable and revealing this most painful part of your life. The sad fact is we do live in a sinful world, with people hurting each other, and hurt people reacting out of their hurt spurning the chain on, it is horrible the suffering and pain your mother would have suffered, yet terrible that she'd put an innocent child through such worth devaluing things, but i can empathise with both of you, God knows and understands our weaknesses, and irregardless of the extremeness of our situations, all of us do suffer from hurts from others, yet also hurt others. I know God is a good of healing, some of these things are really deep, but God can touch even the deepest thing in somebodies heart, and use for good something that was definately not good. i may be wrong but it seems that you hate yourself alot as well, even after knowing God some already (as I have also sometimes).

here is a scripture for you on your journey
jeremiah 29:11-
For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD , "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. 12 Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. 13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you," declares the LORD , "and will bring you back from captivity.

God made you with a purpose, loves you passionately, wants to commune with you at the deepest part of your being, is concerned even about the number of hairs on your head, so of course with the deepest pains and scars of your heart. His plans and purposes for you are good (maybe not always easy - but good). He is also the healer and restorer, he is the master surgeon, can heal physically, but more miraculously, the scared and damaged and even sinful human heart, so submit and trust this master surgeon, be vulnerable to him, search him, put yourself on the operating table, and YES surgery without anethetic hurts, and it hurts when God brings up the issues and pains in our heart, that we've often built walls around, surpressed or done whatever we could do to try to survive and forget the pain, and like surgery it hurts having the surgery, but of course the surgery is good, and healing occurs..\

May God Bless you.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

[This message has been edited by Max (edited November 29, 2004).]

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"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike." -- C. S. Lewis (1898 - 1963), "The Poison of Subjectivism" (from Christian Reflections; p. 108)

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - hoping to get more done over the holidays . . .

[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited November 29, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited November 29, 2004).]

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.