I see many say they are realists as that religion is not realistic or logical or kind, etc. The Christian religion helped the world evolve in science and engineering. Another problem is that many priests now have been influenced by society and can not defend their arguments well as if a common person knows religion more. When values get compromised they will always be compromised. Christianity should not change and is never outdated. The standard rules being thrown out are like throwing out standard math. People should change there way, since they are thrown off course from the right path.

I found this article and thought some might find it interesting how society has become more anti Christian.
“Satan works by deception and we as a nation have truly been deceived. I’m afraid most Americans have placed their faith in man (government) for their safety and subsistence, rather than the Lord God, against the warning in Psalm 118:8-9. They happily look to government for health care, food, fuel oil, welfare, housing, etc. instead of the Lord. Faith, and in whom it is placed, is the very cornerstone of Christianity. Government, under Satan’s direction, has prompted millions of people to trust man, instead of the Lord and that’s all he (Satan) has to do – take our eyes off of the Lord God.”
Yep, like it said Satan’s job is to take our eyes away from the God. Another thing is that the best trick Satan has is to show that he does not exist.
Full article here http://www.mainemediaresources.com/citizen_reporter.htm

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited October 02, 2004).]

anyhow, then you go on how people make government their god. which is a very liberal standpoint. and it's bad. it's why I'm a conservative. The government is not our mommy. so, I'd agree with you there also.

but... what is the point for this post? is it the first or second part?

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Soterion Studios

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Called by God. The passioned plea of a father. The journey awaits at Jarod's Journey.

All to often, it is people wanting power that are to blame for the problem - religion just gets caught in the crossfire.

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Reasoning with non-believers without encouraging them to read the Bible, I have found, is quite useless. God's word convinces - not our own reason.
--CobraA1

Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Writing object code and GUI.

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Soterion Studios

Society can make people worse or better despite how people are. TV is not regulated like it uses to be. In the 1920 the movies that came out were not for kids and a many Christian help put some morals in the entertainment industry. Over time they did not do as much since immorality gradually creped back which many got adjusted to it.

The Christian religion helped make the civilized world, and taking away the rules of moral decency that religion offers will not help it be better. A true Christian would not murder, or blow up a building like some atheists like Timothy McVeigh, or a Muslims that strap bombs on themselves. If Christians did that then they would not be Christians since Christianity says not to do those bad things, unlike an atheist that does not have any guidelines which no matter what they do they are still atheists. As for the Muslim religion that’s a cult with mixed view taken from good and bad sources.

Even the crusades can be argued easily since even political historians say this lot that it was not a religion was even though many say it is. The thing is that it was a trade war, and that religion was used to motivate the people to fight something that they mostly believe in, and if they were told it was just to get cheaper trade with Muslim countries then it would not work out as well. Religion like always is a scapegoat so that immoral activity can do its job freely while everyone questions religion and converts form it. The crusaders did not even act Christian since they destroyed, ransacked, killed many Christians civilizations. The crusaders were generally 2 faces since they say they are one thing but act like another which they are not Christians, especially the ones that ordered them to do so like the royalty and the priests.

After WW2 the United States sent Christian missionaries to Japan and South Korea to change their ways which it worked well for south Korea and they have the biggest church in the world and a big Christian following, but if did not work well in Japan as some may noticed in the other post about Japan’s culture. The same should be done to the Muslim counties that are growing since they do not allow conversions in their country, and convert with force with that method worked well in many places. The problem is how the society does not even try to bring moral values to people but let people go rampant.

Being nice to evil automatically makes you to be evil to good.

We are pilgrims in an unholy land (to quote Indiana Jones and the last crusade). There are two cities, or two kingdoms.. the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of this world. We are citizens of the Kingdom of God but we are sojourning in the kingdom of this world (AKA City of Man). We are strangers here. Whats more, the natives don't like us, or what we stand for.

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-- ignorance can be educated, immaturity can be grown out of, and drunkeness can be sobered, but stupid lasts forever.

quote:

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The same should be done to the Muslim counties that are growing since they do not allow conversions in their country, and convert with force with that method worked well in many places. The problem is how the society does not even try to bring moral values to people but let people go rampant.

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the muslim world is mostly the most unreached people group(s) in the world, with hardly any money spent on missions there, alot because most christians unlike missionaries of old, value their lifestyle and life so much to go. In the natural if thousands and thousands of christians from all over the world (not just the west, since because of our history, we aren't so effective in reaching muslims), would go to these countries, and love the people like Christ does, and preach the gospel in boldness, even if it gets us killed, for the church is built on the blood of the matyrs. even in the secular this would rock the world and these countries, let alone in the spiritual realm..
But even if western christians, who are so often more consumed about using God to make themselves feel good, and get blessings here and there, and are too attached to this world and their possessions, won't take up their cross daily, and follow Jesus into the great commission, at least the Holy Spirit is doing things in the muslim world - for before the end is come thre will be mass "revival" in muslim lands, for the gospel is to be preached to all men before the end comes, and the Holy Spirit has been giving MANY MANY MANY muslims visions/dreams of Christ, it is exciting.
but if we don't take up the call and go, not with bombs, but rather with offering our christian love.

For God loved the world so much he gave his only son..
God loves the muslims so much that he will give his children, his bride as well, for for us to die, is gain, as we are sealed and saved, and have thte greatest gift of all, but for them to die, is tragic and breaks God's heart..

thoughout history, in israel, and also in the spread of the gospel, when the church did not Go by choice, God either forced them to go (like excile to babylon), or forced other people into their midsts.

at forced to go:
look at daniel, an exile to bablyon, yet he was faithful to God, and not living in self pity, and he served God faithfully, and was an instrument of God to serve not 1 but 2 world empires and through his actions, God was glorified in both of these empires.
when the early apostles and christians didn't go out, God used persecution to spread them out to share the gospel and fufill their commission.
later on after christianity became the 'state' religion of rome, and in many ways was becoming nominal and corruption, many true christians were expelled from the empire, and where they went they choose to be faithful to God and the gospel, and converted many peoples

or say with the vikings, a people who had a MUCH different worldview than christians (extremely different compared to worldview similiarities between islam and christianity), a worldview in which their idea of heaven - valhalla - is our vision of hell, blood and fire on the battlefield, anyhow monks were kidnapped so they could teach writing etc, and women were kidnapped, well because they were beautiful and the vikings liked to rape them and also take them hope to be their wives, yet as these people choose to accept that despite their suffering, God was in control, loved them, and loved their captors, and they applied the gospel in their own hearts, forgiving their enemies, they were used by God to utterly be a catalyst to change a completely evil civilisation. Are we willing to be used by God in the same way, or are we too attached to our world, and our nice comfortable "cultural christianity?"

or now, lets step on peoples worldviews more , how about when God brought people in.. it served a twofold purpose, because the people who came found the truth of the gospel through the tre christians there, while it also purified the true church, punished the false church , so that true christianity would continue.
for example when the germanic tribes ransacked rome, but in the process discovered te truth of christianity, often by true christians who were persecuted by these enemies, it was amazing

then later on, when greater western europe was christinized but again became nominal ,watered down, corrupted, worldly, and then God allowed the pagan romans to ransack through them..
imagine christians at that time "we are the christian country ,God's favour is on us, not on those pagan people, of course God will protect us from those evil vikings", and not care how much God loves those vikings so much. and they could not forsee that God would use their suffering as part of his greater plan. So the vikings ravaged western europe like never before seen, utter detruction, many christians would have though "has got forsaken us", but it was part of his plan because he loved the vikings so much, and in the process within a few generations scandanavia was completed changed for the gospel.

if we won't go to the muslim people, God WILL bring them to us, and we mightn't like it too much..
what saddens me is watching is too many churches, there is a FEAR of muslims, rather than LOVE for them, and people seeing it far too much from a worldly worldview rather than a christian one, rather than from the context of the great commission. As a country we value our citizens lives much more higher than theirs, but as christians we should be willing to lay down our lives (not in a matyr complex, unneccisarily), but be willing to follow Christ , in all things, trusting him in all things, doing his will in all things..

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

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proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

www.gfa.org - Gospel for Asia

www.persecution.com - Voice of the Martyrs

Just when we think we know how God is going to do things, he does something we would never expect. I like the way C.S. Lewis expressed in the chronicles of Narnia, he said of Aslan "he is not a tame lion" God isn't tame. Some times he tells his people to fight, sometimes he tells them not to fight. Sometimes he has them oppose evil with the sword and shedding of blood, sometimes he has them oppose evil by turning the other cheek and allowing their own blood to be shed. God is unpredictable, for that reason it is dangerous and unwise to think that God will always have us take a certain action. Most of the time we really have no idea what God will tell us to do next, we only think we do.

If God calls people to go to muslim countries they should go, and I'm relatively sure he will do so and has done so. I also believe that it was according to his will that Iraq be invaded. I personaly believe that God is going to bring even greater destruction upon iraq. That is just my personal opinion, however.

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-- ignorance can be educated, immaturity can be grown out of, and drunkeness can be sobered, but stupid lasts forever.

I can't see invading iraq, as God causing "his people" to oppose evil righteously by the sword, though like you i do believe it was God's will for iraq to be invaded, part of his mysterious great plan in which he uses everything for good, but i don't see the invader as a 'righteous warrior of God', but rather an instrument like nebachanezzer, who God said was doing his will, was being his servant, yet who couldn't use that as an excuse for the fact that he was sinning as well. Being part of God's plan is no excuse for sin, and God held nebachanezzer accountible for his violence and his pride, and he will do the same to america.

also in the same token ,one has to accept that sept 11 was also part of God's will.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

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-- ignorance can be educated, immaturity can be grown out of, and drunkeness can be sobered, but stupid lasts forever.

I do agree that saddam was evil and did horrible things, and God has punished him via the pax americana, though we have to own up to our own sin, and not pride, sept 11th was a warning of God, to repent and be humble , but what resulted was the opposite , the attitude that "We are the best,the most advanced civilisation on the earth ever, we will prevail, we will be victorious, USA USA USA USA USA USA", saddam hussein was just as evil, when he was supported by us, he did most of his crimes while he was our guy fighting the iranians, and the chemical weapons he used was supplied by us, and we helped him target the enenmy even. I cannot buy into the rhetoric of "liberation, bringing freedom and democracy to iraq" etc, that is the rhetoric of any invading army throughout history - everybody likes to think they are the good guy, Hilter and the germans continually blasted out to the russians that they were invading russia to liberate them from communism.

i am assured that the reasons wasn't based on it as teh 'right/moral' thing to do or out of a desire to liberate the iraqi people by words out of george w bush. I remember watching an interview with him, in which the topic of rwanda was brought up, asked what he would do now with hindsight (for under clintons watch, the US vetoed the UN sending in troops to stop the genocide, they actually vetoed the description of it being called genocide - clinton later went to rwanda and apoligised saying he would have acted different if he had known (which is maybe just a PR lie, because he DID know ) but anyway, george bush, said that he would have definately NOT interfered in the genocide as he would not send troops or do anything that is not in the GEOPOLITICAL INTEREST OF THE UNITED STATES.

CASE CLOSED.
it is so dangerous when we take things into our own hands, fight in the worlds ways of fighting (the jews expected a militant jesus), but the kindgom of God works from the inside out, it throws the worlds mentality of things upside down, the early christians refused to fight in the army - which the 'secular' reason (rather than spiritual reason behind it) that the roman empire despised and persecuted christians. its not leftist, its not pacifist, or cowardly, not like the pascificm of leftist utopian protestors that so many of use despise - as they sacrificed their own lives for it, it is christlike.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

I also agree that the US government has done many despicable things, such as backing saddam, such as betraying the kurds after the first gulf war.. during the cold war era we betrayed a number of smaller countries into communist oppression and slaughter.

I also believe that the US is the only nation in the world (with the possible exception of England and maybe Israel) that has often times acted out of interest in doing what was right, rather than simply self interest. There are many examples in which the US has made things harder on themselves because we chose to do what was right rather than what was expedient.

Your right, the jews expected a militant messiah.. Jesus wasn't, but a few hundred years before him there was the macabean revolt in which God did lead israel in a violent revolution. Thats my point, one option or the other isn't always right.. it depends on God's timing and what he is telling his people to do.

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-- ignorance can be educated, immaturity can be grown out of, and drunkeness can be sobered, but stupid lasts forever.

I also agree that the US government has done many despicable things, such as backing saddam, such as betraying the kurds after the first gulf war.. during the cold war era we betrayed a number of smaller countries into communist oppression and slaughter.

I also believe that the US is the only nation in the world (with the possible exception of England and maybe Israel) that has often times acted out of interest in doing what was right, rather than simply self interest. There are many examples in which the US has made things harder on themselves because we chose to do what was right rather than what was expedient.

Your right, the jews expected a militant messiah.. Jesus wasn't, but a few hundred years before him there was the macabean revolt in which God did lead israel in a violent revolution. Thats my point, one option or the other isn't always right.. it depends on God's timing and what he is telling his people to do.

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-- ignorance can be educated, immaturity can be grown out of, and drunkeness can be sobered, but stupid lasts forever.

quote:

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I also believe that the US is the only nation in the world (with the possible exception of England and maybe Israel) that has often times acted out of interest in doing what was right, rather than simply self interest. There are many examples in which the US has made things harder on themselves because we chose to do what was right rather than what was expedient.

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as for the US, i believe it was born with mixed foundations and the fruits have been mixed (but of course that is the nature of the world we live in), however i am so thankful for the amount of good that has come out of the US, the amount of true gospel (lets not mention the false for now), the amount of missionaries sent from the US and the balance effect they had been on the world..

even the roman empire which was more evil than our western society seems at the moment (or maybe we just dress evil up in more appealing clothes, so we can persuade ourselves its not so evil), well even the roman empire caused a stability effect on the world at the time, and america through goodness in the past has caused such a stability , and even through bad, they have caused a great stability to the world as a whole, and when the american empire collapsed, probably from internal decay, as well as external invasion possibly, the world won't know what hit it, the chaos, instability, power struggle and evil that will be unleased when the pax americana is no longer there to be a stabilising factor.
With america's technological and military supremacy i find it hard to believe that it could ever be invaded as such, but despite that i believe it will happen, but i suppose internal decay could bring it to a place of weakness.. a much more likely scenario in the meantime would be australia being overrun by indonesia - the most populous muslim nation on earth, and like the romans of old, invaded by the germans, or like the western europeans of old invaded by the vikings, we will have our world turned upside down, and have the oppurtunity and responsibility to share the gospel with great cost, in the midst of great persecution.

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

The US isn't perfect, no people are, and no nation is. Our government is very often the least perfect part of this country. To be honest, I have more than my share of conspiracy theories rattling around. But at the same time, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any nation in history that has done more good, sent more missionaries, printed more bibles, given more money, selflessly helped other nations rebuild themselves, given more lives to spread the gospel, given more lives to protect the lives and freedoms of others, and yet gotten little in return but hatred and insults.

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-- ignorance can be educated, immaturity can be grown out of, and drunkeness can be sobered, but stupid lasts forever.