Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
I went and saw the passion. Did it enrich my life immensely? Did it change me significantly? No. But it was definitely worthwhile, and i treasured the experience a lot. Though the experience is made rich not so much because of the movie but because of the context of who Jesus is in my life. Without that context - it could move me emotionally, maybe more so than other movies, if I didn't know anything about Christianity it would give me a glimpse about it, but without the context. If I had a marginal understanding of Christianity and a basic framework then it could do a lot for me, However being a Christian, treasuring the sacrifice Christ made for me personally makes it a very very personal and rich movie, reminding me of the sacrifice he made for me that I can too often take for granted. So people claim it is , or will be the greatest evangelical tool this side of the cross. I disagree. However despite the hype, controversy, a couple of confusing (to non believers) and doctrinally unstable parts, and the frailty of human vessels, I Believe that God is behind it and he is using it for His glory, even unto salvation, But I must point out that it is not the gospel. Any media or tool, no matter how excellent, relevant or useful, can never be a substitute for the gospel - the written word of God or the testimony of Christ living in sanctified submitted vessels. I do suggest taking as many non Christian friends to it as possible. To a generation which now thinks with its eyes rather than with its mind, the visual medium is often the only way to get through to them, and God can use this to touch peoples hearts deeply and get rid of preconceptions and mindsets that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God and blind people to the truth, But just don't have hope in the film, have hope in Jesus - He is the author and perfected of our faith. His work has being going on throughout history with power and force and the spirit has been working in the hearts of men , drawing them to God for generations come and gone - this movie is a part of that, but just a part, we need to be thankful and embrace it, but keep it in context. This movie cannot save people, however it can be a catalyst for salvation for those whom God has been working on their hearts, drawing them to Himself, and it can also be a seed to others. Just remember the bigger picture. It is much easier to shown Christ to somebody in a movie than it is to show Christ to somebody in our lives and in our loving. Now I want to cover a bit more about the movie itself without giving away too much. Another issue is extrabiblical information. In making a movie about something that we were not there - it is impossible not to add extrabiblical info, but i believe it to be mostly accurate, and the majority of extra biblical information is neutral enough to be doctrinally sound, and not is definitely not anti or wrong. However there are 2 or 3 things that to a solid Christian can be interpreted in context , though maybe still a little confusing, but for the sake of the non Christian would have been much better to have left out as they just add confusion and take away from Christ and the main message of the film and the gospels.(these parts being relating the demons oppressing judas and the devil's repesentation at one time as a women carrying a very bizarre looking baby). anyway I am very positive about it, though this review may seem to sound otherwise, I just am cautious and don't want to see christians focus too much on this latest means, this movie rather than on Christ and his plan of salvation for the whole world and the mystery of how he uses us the church in that process. as for antisemetism , it is not there, the same accusations about its antisemetism can be hurled at the gospels themselves (and often is, and at us Christians who take the bible to actually be the inspired word of God, not just a metaphor). I can see how people can get this message out of it, i suppose the one thing that the movie could have done more to detract from this accusation would be to show how it is Every one of us that is responsible for his death, that it is for ALL our sins, not just the jews, not just the romans), but through history and to come, the Devil and men use and twist the scripture for their own evil purposes (antisemetism being one of them, the same will happen (though i pray that it doesn't) with this movie) as for the gore, the media had hyped this up to be the most violent and gory movie of all time. I didn't see it that way. I've seen many more violent and full of gore movies with no rating. the violence in here is for a purpose and i don't believe it is overdone. The camera cuts away at certain times to make sure its not overdone, even though the detail is very graphic. But we have to remember what that blood of Jesus means to us.
Also i have great hope that it will get nonchristians thinking about and being open to the things of God, and knowing how cool my God is, He will be engineering the right christians to get into this persons life to share the full gospel and to be a living gospel to them. As the greatest video tool for evangelism. though it is very great showing the suffering and cost that christ paid, i think it does not show the full gospel, and for evangelism it is not enough. though this movie is made better, with great storytelling, effects, production, and excellence of a movie, i still think that for general evangelism around the world the "jesus film" is more powerful, bevcause it contains the very words of the gospel, and the word of God does not come back void and i know that the Jesus film has been shown to more than a billion people in many language (i think more than 2 billion even, maybe more) with great fruit. Also the clay animation miracle maker movie is one of the best overall accurate Jesus movies i have seen. the passion is definately the most powerful and accurate crucifixion movie ever made, and probably ever to be made, and it raised the bar of excellence for christian media - which is needed to reach the MTV generation (and TV generation in general) I will see this movie again and again. it will prompt me to read the gospels and i'm sure it will open up my eyes to certian things in scripture i may not have pondered so much before, and will change me some, But its overall effect on me today was quite significant, but not as signficant as the communion i had this morning at church prayer meeting. I think this review will need alot of revising ------------------ |
bennythebear Member Posts: 1225 From: kentucky,usa Registered: 12-13-2003 |
i hope i have a chance to see it while it's in theatres, and not have to wait until it's out on dvd. i've seen and heard some of the hype surrounding the movie, and i'm skeptical by nature. my biggest fear is watching the movie with a carnal mind, i know it'll be good if i'm thinking spiritually. i want to get a few friends together to go see the movie. anywho...later and GOD bless. |
BluePaladin Member Posts: 110 From: Tennessee, USA Registered: 12-27-2002 |
I cried like a baby. I had heard every teaching before, so it's not that I went to learn something new, but I got a visual representation of the Cross in my mind. I agree that the movie should be treated as a work of art, because that's what it is. But I wept like there was no tomorrow and all I could say was, "I'm sorry Lord." over and over and "I love you Lord" and "Please Forgive Me". My heart is filled with sorrow of how lightly we've taken the Cross when my Jesus paid such a price. I am not the same person after seeing that movie. See it in the theater if you can. I don't think a T.V. will do this justice. ------------------ |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
It is the single most powerful movie ever. It really hits you hard and makes you think about the ultimate sacrifice that was paid. |
Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
it is deeply personal, when i see the floggings that rip the flesh from him and drain his blood (that blood that saves and covers me, and that flesh - the body of Him which is my substanence.) i see myself as that roman soldier and my sins as the whip thing.. Though i think the physical suffering of Jesus is just the start of the story, i am sure there are untold hundreds, maybe millions of people who have suffered as horrible a tortured death, And he did that all for me. Karl ------------------ |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
that's what really hits you. I mean, if the physical pain is that bad... and the spiritual pain is worse... and He did it for you. WHOA! |
bennythebear Member Posts: 1225 From: kentucky,usa Registered: 12-13-2003 |
if the good LORD is willing i'm going to see it tonight. but i don't know how HE's got things worked out for me. GOD is good. the previous week i've been getting some massive chastenings, but now i'm getting blessed, and i'm ready to grow again. i just listened to a song by jonah33, "all for you". it's a heavier style of music, but it's the gospel. talking about how if i(or any one person) was the only one who sinned HE'd die for us, so it's our sins that drove the nails. i just want to share that beautiful gospel. a SAVIOUR who gave it all for us. people need to hear and SEE that love from us. i could use some prayers, not so much for me, but for those who GOD is going to use me to reach, i just want that light to shine without hendrance from the flesh. GOD bless y'all. |
BluePaladin Member Posts: 110 From: Tennessee, USA Registered: 12-27-2002 |
Jonah33 is very cool. I was a little skeptical myself, but if you watch the movie with the mindset of "He's doing this for my sins", you will be renewed and will weep for the Cross. I saw it for a 2nd time tonight and I still was blown away. I have to see it with my mom next Thursday, so I will have bought 4 sets of tickets (we bought a pair for my wife's mom and dad). We should all support the Passion in every way possible so that more movies like this will be made instead of the trash normally put out. Praise God for Mel Gibson's obedience to the Holy Spirit! ------------------ |
Skynes Member Posts: 202 From: Belfast, N Ireland Registered: 01-18-2004 |
I haven't seen it yet but I'm already feeling sorrowful just from hearing ppl talk about it. |
Brandon Member Posts: 594 From: Kansas City, Mo, USA Registered: 02-02-2004 |
I just saw it yesterday, and I was deeply touched. To see those events brought to life like that really blew me away. Knowing that I was one of many who were responsible for His sufferings brought me to tears as I watched the movie unfold. As the movie played, I thought he did this for me and everyone else, ... it's amazing, God's love is amazing. It's incredible that if I had been the only one that was to ever sin that He'd come and do it all just for me. Thank you Jesus! ------------------ [This message has been edited by Brandon (edited February 29, 2004).] |
D-SIPL Moderator Posts: 1345 From: Maesteg, Wales Registered: 07-21-2001 |
It's not out until the 26th March here in the England, so won't be able to see it yet. It's actually released the day i fly out to America. --D-SIPL ------------------
|
bennythebear Member Posts: 1225 From: kentucky,usa Registered: 12-13-2003 |
i finally saw it last night. i agree with klumsy's original post. it's worthwhile, and being a CHRISTian it meant a lot. but it's not the same as the written word of GOD, or the preached word of GOD(which also includes witnessing). i also noticed some parts that were simply just not in the bible. but i could nitpick anything to death. it had CHRIST beat, humiliated, and crucified for our sins, so it can't be a bad movie.(don't read if you don't want to know anything that happens in the movie) oh, and my favorite part, it had the resurrection. i believe without the resurrection we have no hope. did anyone else notice the whole in HIS hand at the end of the movie as HE was walking off? anywho, GOD bless |
graceworks Member Posts: 455 From: Corvallis, Oregon, USA Registered: 03-03-2001 |
Yes Benny, saw the hole (although technically he should've been nailed at the wrist between the two major bones of the forearm - why? The Scripture says no bone was broken but nailing through the hand would've certainly broken on of the 13+ bones there. Plus, almost everyone shows ropes - but I've heard accounts of no ropes, or at least they are supporting his weight. But I digress). The last 15 seconds of the movie is awesome ... but too short. If you missed it, you would think that Jesus only died. I better stop there so not to spoil it for folks who haven't seen it or our English Brethren (especially the one who won't reply to my Email or Private Messages! :-) ). If you get a chance, DO see this movie!! God bless, ------------------ |
D-SIPL Moderator Posts: 1345 From: Maesteg, Wales Registered: 07-21-2001 |
quote: *looks around* You mean me? heh. My usual email address bounces at the mo, my linux box is down, and thats my mail server so send it to my graceworks address and i'll get them fine. No pm's neither, i did reply to your last one. Anyhoo, lets try not to steal this thread ... email me Tim! --D-SIPL ------------------
|
Mr. Ex Nihilo Member Posts: 19 From: Canada Registered: 03-28-2004 |
______________ The last 15 seconds of the movie is awesome ... but too short. If you get a chance, DO see this movie!! God bless, I agree so much. This was an awesome movie. My wife was really moved by it too. I don't think she ever deeply thought about how much he went through for us until she saw this movie. I encourage others to see it (nvite a friend if it's still playing). Blessings, ------------------ Hebrews 13:2 (NIV) |
pillaroftruth Member Posts: 28 From: North Hollywood, CA, USA Registered: 08-30-2003 |
Read this ->>> http://www.av1611.org/Passion/passion.html |
ArchAngel Member Posts: 3450 From: SV, CA, USA Registered: 01-29-2002 |
av1611... ugh. ------------------ |
Klumsy Administrator Posts: 1061 From: Port Angeles, WA, USA Registered: 10-25-2001 |
yeah i had read that some time again. despite the fact that it twists quotes, takes things out of context, makes alot of assumptions, and all other sorts of problems, some of the issues are worth looking at, and being aware of for we should test everything, and not just accept everything blindly. However i would advise NOT letting the bitterness and unreasonable legalism of av1611 to infect anybody. ------------------ |
mjohnson Member Posts: 48 From: Registered: 08-03-2006 |
I think it's kinda sad how some Christians jumped on the whole Passion of the Christ bandwagon and now all of the junk about Mel Gibson is coming out...I mean, Jesus came to earth as a Jewish man... |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
It is sad that he'd say those things. I don't think it detracts from the value of the movie though. Your last sentence confuses me. What if he'd made some anti-Italian comments? It's still wrong, and the Jews rejected Jesus, IMO they aren't some special group to be venerated either. Lazarus |
Posts: From: Registered: |
I don't care to see it since Christ’s resurrection is more important than his death since not everyone gets resurrected. I don't like that Mel is pushing for the distorted Catholic view since they didn't talk Aramaic to each other but Ancient Greek which the catholic church tires to confuse people on that matter to show they are the originators. But still besides that I don't care to see a movie with gore. Also he should have kept the part where the Jews say that are liable since we went that far so why not go all the way since the entire bible and every Christian is antisemetic automatically anyway even though some Christians don’t want to believe it. Christ has to come as a Jew since if he did not then the Jews would call him an antisemite sine it is very hard to convince them that they over exaggerate. lol Even Christ said he goes to the "sick" people first. Since they lost their status as chosen people and it has been given to a "NEW NATION" as the bible says, and no Christianity alone is not a nation but the "faith". Also I think that Christ did not die for our sins in a way, but for those before his coming. Since they didn’t know what was right and didn't Christ go down to Hell to free them? As for us we have a one pay pass to go up or down. I should reaserch this point some more. I find this paying for our sins part to be used as a cop out for many since they think its ok to sin since Christ died for their sins and feel that are not paying any price for it. We know what we have to do and we pay for it and we don’t have any excuses unlike the people before Christ. Also I find using scare tactics and violence to convince people is not the Christian way in my opinion. In the end only Mel could have made the movie since all of Hollywood did not want to make it since as many Jews admit that on TV that Jews run Hollywood. Anyway if some people like the movie then enjoy. ------------------ [This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 05, 2006).] |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
Here we go again.....
quote: Biblical proof please.
quote: Once again, Biblical proof please.
quote: Do you have any more information on this fact, as in information to support it outside of something you heard on TV, or any comments on why you apparently consider this a bad thing? ------------------ Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one. |
Posts: From: Registered: |
The second point is an opinion and the part about doing down to hell I hear it on TV many times when they talk about the bible but I don’t know about that part. The others are facts stated many places on TV, News, books, etc. As for your comment why is it bad well look at the crap they put out intentionally to feed people since its not to help us but hurt us. You don't need proof since you can logically deduct it all. If you don’t want to believe it then its a shame that people need proof than to think it out since we won't always have proof that 1+1=2 or 26842x37=993154 in a book specifically and we have to use logic. But I'll give you a hint in PM. ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
Um, on your first question, about the whole Bible and Christians being automatically antisemetic, I asked for Biblical info on that, if you could show me some that might help me understand a bit better. As for Jews intentionally feeding people "crap", I would venture to say that it is more than just the Jews who do so, and also that in may not be done intentionally, there are more coordinative forces at work in the world than just us humans, it seems more logical to me that those who feed us this stuff are simply giving people what they percieve people want, something that is measured by what people are willing to pay to be fed this stuff. As for logic, logic used by humans can often be incorrect, either from wrong information, incomplete information, personal distortions, or just simple mistakes in the processes used. For that reason I strive to try and treat any man's sayings (especially my own), ESPECIALLY those based on logic, with a great deal of care. I do not trust man's logic, I do, however, infallibly trust God's words, hence the reason I'm asking for Biblical information to backup your claims. P.S. I responded to your PM ------------------ Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one. [This message has been edited by Ereon (edited August 06, 2006).] |
Posts: From: Registered: |
The term anti Semite was not used then just like the world politically correct. Here is the omitted part from the movie since the bible is seen as anti Semitic. But don’t worry people if you don’t like it since politically correct people that don’t will get their way and the bible banned eventually if things continue the way they are going and then you could all be praising Islam or some future religion silly religion. I have seen the bible edited too much and its pathetic what some Christians believe. “Matthew 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
"Ye have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you." Deuteronomy 9:24 I would like to see a Christian movie after Christ came when where Jews persecuted Christians and threw them in with the lions in the gladiator arena. But darn it the truth again is in the way of being anti Semitic, so let’s make up some words like politically correct and change history to see everything as roses. But history repeats itself when then truth is not spoken and candy coated. Also kind of odd how some people praise the savage Romans lately and giving them more credit than they deserve. ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
I posted another reply to your new PM ------------------ Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one. |
jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
As for the posts that i write, if i'm wrong about any points then anyone here can feel free to tell me and i will talk to them about it.
quote: I would like to comment on this like from warsong. If my memory of the book of Revelation serves me. Everyone is going to be resurrected because we are all subject to God's judgement. i edited this post because i misunderstood some of the arguments being made and once again acted too quickly and rashly. sorry for anyone who witnessed it (and those who didn't ) [This message has been edited by jestermax (edited August 08, 2006).] [This message has been edited by jestermax (edited August 08, 2006).] |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
Resurrection can be a tricky term if not defined correctly when discussing the Final Judgement, and general discussion of human resurrection should probably include a discussion on "when". Humans are (after birth) "dicotimus" - body and soul. Humans after salvation are "tricotimus" - body, soul, spirit. We've got a series of events that we're not 100% sure on the timeline or details. Some believers (or believers?) are supposed to rule nations during the 1000 years. I would assume that to mean some get a body back. Apparently at some point we get new bodies...when that is I'm not sure. And whether unbelievers ever enter into the equation with new bodies....I'm sort of doubting it but I couldn't say for sure either way. This might fall under "useless speculation"
|
Max Member Posts: 523 From: IA Registered: 09-19-2004 |
Warsong, you cannot take a few versus alone and go off of what they say, you must take in the context of the entire chapter. Weird, I thought the point was for him to die for our sins, so we could go to Heaven. Being Ressurected was just to prove that Satan had no hold on him. All the people who died as true Christians, will be ressurected, but only one person will have died for the sins of mankind. Who cares about what the media says is anti-semitic? The Jewish people, the ones in the mobs, along with the Roman soldiers, crucified Jesus. The Jewish people had a chance to free Jesus, but they chose to have him crucified. When was the last time that the Bible was edited? Did I miss something? As far as I know, there are different versions, such as NIV, and King James, but I'm pretty sure they all have the same message. Yes, it is pathetic what some Christians believe, but I think it's pathetic what some Islamic people think. I think Buddhism and such is kinda looney. I think the Jewish religion is funny, cus salvation is based on if you're a good Jew or not. (Heard from a Rabbi in my college class) I couldn't understand your paragraph about the blaspheming traitor, I got confused in the last sentences. 8:44 and 8:45, where are they from? Once again, you cannot take one verse of the Bible and live by it, you gotta look at the context. There is a verse that's like "Stay single if you want" and another one that says "Marriage is good, do it." You gotta look at the context. Who has changed History? No one as far as I know. When's the last time History repeated and Jesus got crucified again? Hmmm, I can't seem to remember. ------------------ Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
quote: Note: The death and resurrection is part and parcel. It's not something you can really separate which had what meaning because if Jesus simply died then there's an implication where the conclusion leads to Jesus was just a man (no different than any other prophet like Isaiah or Moses) and thus not capable of paying the penalty for everyone's sin. |
Posts: From: Registered: |
The Catholic movie the passion puts a guilt trip on people to believe while the Orthodox church is against that and wants people to belief not out of guilt since that is the wrong reason to be religious, since Christianity focuses on the means justifying the end and not the atheist Machiavelli way that the ends justify the means. That is why I am against the passion since it is missing the "big picture" despite it being a big motion picture lol.
Net
Yes you have the look at the entire bible and people should not nit pick, but the foundation for most Christian sects generally nit pick which is silly to say they are all equal. ------------------ |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
quote:
(from Google) "discrimination against or persecution of Jews" "Anti-Semitism (alternatively spelled antisemitism) is hostility towards or prejudice against Jews (not, in common usage, Semites in general — see the Scope section below). This happens on an individual level and goes on to the institutionalized prejudice and persecution once prevalent in European societies, of which the highly explicit ideology of Adolf Hitler's National Socialism was the most extreme form. " [This message has been edited by netcog (edited August 14, 2006).] |
Posts: From: Registered: |
ummm no! You don't get it. And I'll explain why in PM. ------------------ |
CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
You can't defeat the dictionary, dude. It knows too much. |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
responding here as I didn't want to pm and post here w/ most of the same stuff...saves time to just say it all here. There is a world of difference between being anti-semetic and being against the policies of people who might happen to be of jewish ancestry.... 1. Not everyone on that 'agenda' is jewish. 2. It doesn't matter what 'they' believe. 3. I would and still do support Israel despite what some might be doing here. They might not be perfect, they might be in the wrong, but I'm sure as heck not going to advocate going to war against them....nations did that, even at the "behest" of God to punish Israel....and those nations still got beat down in the end. No thanks. Let some other nation be God's tool for punishing Israel (if it should need it). Same goes with regards to a pastor who might be in the wrong....I'm going to do my level best not to touch him or the issues at stake with a 10 foot pole....or perhaps even be within visual or hearing distance. 4. Israel has not been "cast aside" like an old cloth never to be picked up again. The redirection of the salvation message was not much of a different situation than each time in the Old Testament the jewish tribes were scattered. This time is a "special time", but there is still an emphasis on Israel. 5. There is no massive conspiracy. There might be threads, but there is no council of Masons or Jews running the US or the world....
p.p.s. What you told me was nothing I hadn't heard and has not changed my mind. Honestly I didn't hear what Mel said. I really don't care because it doesn't mean anything. It means something to him and he was apparently drunk...take from that what you will. People say probably worse things all the time and they are stone cold sober, some even have malicious intent and the means to enact it. Lot and his family (minus his wife at the end) were saved even though the city(s) were destroyed. *shrug* I've been angry and upset at the world situation for years now, it's time I grew up and focused on what was important. |
Max Member Posts: 523 From: IA Registered: 09-19-2004 |
Ah yes, Warsong, you're right, not all parts are perfect, but not all are as outlandish as you make it seem. That would be like me saying all Jews are tight with money. Called a stereotype. I mean, take the literal definition of Anti-semitic. 1. Anti - against. 2. Semtitic - Jewish. Just because Mel said something while he's drunk, doesn't make him a non-believer, or anything like that. I'm sure he's asked for forgiveness, etc. What I don't get about Jews is, that God chose them and they don't choose God. How weird is that? ------------------ Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
That is something to think about Max. A recurring theme that shows up in Romans and 1 Corinthians is that WE didn't choose God either, that we could not of chosen Him unless He had first chosen us. Goes along with that verse that says "No man can come to Christ unless he draws him" sorry, don't have a refrence, my computer Bible is on my other computer. But anyhoo, it's interesting to think about, and also quite encouraging, because even when we sin or turn away, or, in the case of some, even waaaay back when we were horrible sinner He STILL chose us and He still chose to draw us to Himself. ------------------ Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one. |
Posts: From: Registered: |
Max Imperfection is like doing a 1/2 *** job, and ½ way is not good enough since it can be ½ truths and ½ truths are closer to lies than truths which have doesn’t far more devastation than intentional evil. I tried to see the movie but it was over done and missed the point. For example the Romans and Judeans spoke Greek to one another and not Latin which the Roman church tried to present since it was a catholic movie or Aramaic which Protestants like, which they loose what the inspired word of God is. It’s like taking things out of context which people integrate wrong. As I said before making people be Christians for the wrong reasons is not a Christian view. Stereotypes are not all bad. Fox example in the air port should they search Al gore as they did just in case he has a bomb? Obviously not and the suspects are most likely Muslims. They used an algorithm to scan people which were effective but politically correct people objected to it which helps bring about 911. If I say Jews and blacks vote liberal is that stereotyping even though that that they say and stats say? If a Jew says it its ok but if a non Jew says it its bad? No wonder Christ was a Jew since non Jews would call him and anti-Semite as well. To say Jews run Hollywood and the media is that stereotyping when they admit it? Blacks have darker skin than whites is that stereo typing? People stereotype the stereotype which is hypocritical and contradictory which they don’t get it. One way to attack facts is to be politically correct. Semite doesn’t mean Jewish, it means people of that region, even Muslims are Semitic. Jewish is not a religion or race since their skin is not Semitic if you didn’t notice already. Jews are a “social” group of people with their views. God chose them because they didn’t choose God. Christ said to go to the sick (in soul) first sick first, just like how a doctor heals the sick (physically).
------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
Isn't imperfection an inherent trait of the human race? Isn't imperfection the very reason we need God in the first place, not even to help us be perfect, but to justify us, because we can never be perfect? Isn't that what grace is all about? Isn't grace the entire reason God chose Israel, isn't grace the entire reason he chose the Gentiles, isn't grace the entire reason he chose ANY of us? There is neither Jew nor Greek, circumscised or uncircumscised because we are ALL in need of grace, aren't we? ------------------ Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one. |
Posts: From: Registered: |
We have to strive to be perfect or close enough to it. Which is why there are saints that have done good and not sinned like the majority. Can you then strive to be just as good as the saints or will you fall short? But again so many lies float around that no one is saint material. Chose Israel for what to be Jewish? But as you stated neither Jew nor Greek to get the world of God, no man or women, no rich or poor. It does not mean their there are no differences which many people confuse, and gays use the protestant interpretation to be priest in protestant churches. But when Christ says Jew and Greek, Christ renamed some of his apostles to Greek names, the apostles spreads it in Greece which help make the orthodox Churches, Greek is the inspired word of God if people want to understand the bible better than how many misinterpret, the original tradition, culture of the early Christian church was Greek, Ancient Greek music is chanting which Christ talked like that to the masses and that’s how the church does its services without instruments since its also again the bible which other Christ sects put their own spin on Christianity, have more miracles year round, they have the original NT, and the official OT in Greek, etc etc which no other Christian sect has what they have. People like Socrates were considered a Christian before Christ, and have influenced other ideologies from Buddhism, Hinduism, etc which is why you see similarities. Even the Jewish language was made with the help of the ancient Greeks. Think about it. ------------------ |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
quote: Prove it and why. [This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 15, 2006).] |
jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
Christ was perfect, and we (christians) should be trying as much as possible to be like him. I don't have the scripture for it but its new testiment somewhere |
Jari Member Posts: 1471 From: Helsinki, Finland Registered: 03-11-2005 |
About being holy, I recommend to read the whole of peter's letter, at least the first chapter. This is however what couple verses say: 1Pe 1:15-16 KJV But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. I don't want to say anything about the topic, just pointing that out. ------------------ [VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3) |
Posts: From: Registered: |
Jari Always interesting to read your comments. Come on you can give one comment about the movie lol. If you are afraid that someone will object to what you say, well at least you can hear another point and think about it or rectify the other about it. lol Good thing you replied to him (netcog) since I would have not because I don't think he wants to listen or understand at times since people seem to believe what they want to believe. I think he said that comment since he thinks that being a Christians you can sin as much and as bad as you want and be always saved no matter what. That more like an old Jewish ideology than christian. ------------------ [This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 15, 2006).] |
jestermax Member Posts: 1064 From: Ontario, Canada Registered: 06-21-2006 |
Which "him" are you talking about? netcog or myself? (or another post a while ago?) |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
I think he was talking about me Jest. Warsong, since when is it within the abilities of human kind to even be perfect, or even to try with a humble and contrite additude? What is our capacity for perfection, our ability to mirror the one and only Christ within our own lives, the God/man who was the empitamy of perfection, the very thing we all as Christians attain to become? Jari's right, the Bible says "be holy as I am holy", but has it ever struck you how confundedly impossible that command is? It's struck me recently, and stuck me hard, it is a completely, utterly, impossible task, beyond anything tha man kind is capable of even COMPREHENDING, much less executing under their own power. We can try, we can follow rules and commandments, even the best of rules and commandments from God himself, but no matter how hard we climb, all this does is stir pride and hypocrisy in our hearts, pride flowing from a ballooned view of ourselves, stemming from the root of our own views and beliefs of our own self sufficencies. If there is anyone on this planet guilty of this it's me. What is our capacity for perfection, what is our ability to live a life of holiness? What's the best we can do? What is the difference between a saint and a sinner? The division between a man of God and a down right heathen? It is a simple, and single thread that seperates the two. Eph 1:4-8 This is the single thread, the single point which seperates the two, that HE chose US, even before we chose him. This is the crux of my point, the only reason we can even be holy, the only reason we can even be who we are, is by HIM, and him alone. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John 15:5 Unless we look to him, unless we explicitly trust him and look to him as the sole source of strength, our ability to be pure, our ability to live, our ability to even be who we are, or hope for what we may become, then we can do absolutely nothing. If you ask the saints I wonder what they'd say, what is the history of these men and women of God who did such great things, and what was it that allowed them to be who we were? Look at these. Paul History: Zealous Pharisee, consented to the stoning of Stephen and responsible for numerous other murders and incarceration of many Christians within Israel under the authority of the High Priest. Peter History: Chosen disciple of Christ, notoriously hot headed and impulsive, struck off the ear of the High Priest's servant, and later denyed Jesus himself threee times within the space of a few minutes. Take away the fame, strip away the accomplishments, and what do you have? What is left when you look back at what these awesome men of God were. You could go on and on with stories like these, saints who were simple paupers, Christians who commited atrocious sins, and I am one of them. My story? Zachary Taylor History: Addicted to pornography and masturbation at the age of 12, stuck in addiction for 5 years, 5 years of bondage and repetetive sin. But here's the best part, each of these stories is another part. In each of these saints, in each of these men of God that we read about and seek to emulate there was a point of destiny, a point in which God stuck forth his hand and chose them, even before they chose him. Paul went on to be an apostle, he planted churchs all over the known world, and brought the gospel to Europe. Peter became one of the 12 apostles, and he to spread the gospel of Christ to the four winds. He united the churchs, and governed them with wisdom and level headedness. But it was God who they trusted in, it was in Him that they found their strength. They found it in quietness and trust, in calmness and humility. They surrendered themselves, and let God work in them, willing to "sit in the lowest room", honestly even to the point that they would be content in doing so even if it was the only thing that God ever asked them to do in their lives. They understood that is was God, it was HIM who made them pure, in Him they were justified, in Him they lived and moved, and in Him they had their being. What's your story, what is your tale of God's goodness. Your tale of ultimate surrender, what is written in it's pages. What is your past, what is your history, what darkness plagues the buried corners of your past? And when was or will be the defining moment where you realize what the saint's did, when you follow them, not down the path of man's perfection, or man's empty righteousness, but instead down the bloodied road of brokeness and true, sincere humility that only comes from God, and can only be recieved? Paul wasn't blowing smoke up everyone's hindquarters when he called himself "less than the least of the saints" (Eph 3:8), I believe he really meant it. This is the point I wish to draw from all this. Why do you deride the Jews and assault their character. Is there anything that you see in their present that any of us cannot see in our own histories? If we have been extended such grace then why do we deny it to those who are our brothers, because we all have one earthly father, and we all have one heavenly Father, whether we choose to acknowledge him or not. God is coming back for his for Israel, he's going to chose them, just like he chose us, no matter what their history and no matter what their past, no matter what their present, he's going to extend his grace and recall his people to him again. It's like what God told Peter, "what God hath cleansed call not though common" (Acts 10:15), this was referring to the Gentiles before the gosple was brought to them, and we might do well to remember it, now that the Jews are in the position of the Gentiles, and God is preparing to reveal his grace and gospel to them, just like he did us. As for me thinking that Christians can sin as much as they want you're mistaken, I simply think that we WILL sin, no matter how holy and perfect we try to be in our own power, it's not until we foster an intimate relationship with God and allow him to take us to a place of complete and true guileless brokeness that we gain the ability to rely on his grace and his strength, and that we can be justified, purified, and holified to the point that his holiness and his divine standards demand. We shouldn't strive to be perfect, we should strive to allow God to decrease us, humble us, and break us to such a level that we live by his grace and his grace alone, because it's only by his grace that we can be anything in the first place, and it's only by his grace that we can live a life of holiness, and become the saints that he's called all of us to become. ------------------ Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one. [This message has been edited by Ereon (edited August 16, 2006).] |
mr.holyness Member Posts: 26 From: whythenshawe,manchester,england Registered: 08-13-2006 |
WOW thats alot of writing^^ ------------------ |
Lazarus Member Posts: 1668 From: USA Registered: 06-06-2006 |
Ereon, thank you for that post. It was very encouraging to read. How old are you, if I may ask? Lazarus |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
Ereon - Amen. |
Max Member Posts: 523 From: IA Registered: 09-19-2004 |
Ereon, very well said. Warsong - Like, my opinion is that you have a misunderstanding of scripture, and some agenda against the Jews. Oh well, hope you get over it. I'll be one of the first to admit I'm not perfect. I can't ever hope to be on Earth with this body. Only when I recieve my heavenly body and live with Christ can I be perfect. Seems like most people here get it. There are better ways to reach an understanding than by blasting someone. BTW, Jews are a race and a religion. You can practice Judiasm, but you can never become a Jew. They won't accept you as a Jew, because they are all inter-related. BTW again, George Bernard Shaw has some funny points. ------------------ Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso |
Max Member Posts: 523 From: IA Registered: 09-19-2004 |
Ergh, lets just ignore him. ------------------ Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso |
Posts: From: Registered: |
Ereon==== Perfection escapes those who have already given up. You can not try when you have already made your decision that you can’t. The apostles and saints were not as perfect as Christ but many have come close. People now don’t even try and your comments state a giving up attitude. You quote C.S Lewis but you forgot the comment he said about being a realist since you and are not being a realist since you can not know when you don’t try. If you and others want to quit and not look for the truth that’s not my problem or my fault. As the bible said to lead the horse to water but it has to decide to drink. Many have lived holy lives and I don’t see anyone that goes what society does can archive it since Christ said you can not follow God and mans laws, but many want to prove Christ wrong. Don’t act you are better than a saint or that you can be since that you make you a failure, a quitter, and you insult their effort when you say it can’t be done. Your answers are here by C.S. Lewis. http://www.christiancoders.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000566.html You are forgiven when you repent and to repent you have to deeply regret what they did and wish you never did it. The more people sin the more the soul gets deteriorated. The Christian Jews are the one God chooses and not the ones that go against him and Jews are not Christians and only the very small exceptions. Max==== 1/2 the people in here object to what some have said and it seems I have to defend and explain both sides of the arguments. When are the other CCN members to stand up for what they believe? And you guys were not around to object at the others when it was time and you all vanished. People are afraid of a mob but want to be part of a mob it seems which is kind of hypocritical. ------------------ |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
quote: Really? How does one approach perfection when one is inherently sinful?
quote: I'm curious where it says I need to deeply regret what I did and wish I never did it.
quote: Where are you seeing the line drawn of "Christian Jews"? Obviously the only Jews who will be with God in Heaven for eternity are those that saw (ahead in time or behind in the past) the work of Jesus Christ. I don't think anyone is saying that Jews who reject Christ as the Son of God will be saved. If that is the whole deal you've been trying to get across, I think most to all of us already understood that. Is there something more you were trying to point out?
quote: Who are the "so many"? [This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 17, 2006).] |
Max Member Posts: 523 From: IA Registered: 09-19-2004 |
Warsong, you are so misguided. Please be quiet. Take Hanclinto's advice please, and don't do anything to harm the people younger in their faith. BTW Warsong, I have accept Christ, and I attone for my sins. I'll be in Heaven, I know it, because of my relationship with God and Jesus. WIll you be there too, Warsong? ------------------ Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso |
Posts: From: Registered: |
Netcog==== I already explained most of your comments but you can not comprehend it and there are some misunderstandings. If you don’t know the answers then you have a lot of searching to do since you are like a pile of domino which when I help put one domino up the rest of the unstable blocks knock it down. If you want my opinion you need a lot of help which I am not your spiritual father to do so, so you should go ask your “spiritual father” if you have one. Unless you are those that take the bible into their own hand and ignore the rest, but you can not live on bread alone as Christ said. Use more metaphors it might help you. Max==== Be a Christian and be humble and admit you can be just as wrong as me, and to tell others not to read what I have to say makes it that you are better and that you know more but with a comment like that it shows that you know less. No one is assured heaven and only Christ can make that decision so don’t act like you are Christ, You have a long life to live and many obstacle that you will trip over. No one is assured not you, not me, not a child molesting priest, or a priest. ------------------ |
CheeseStorm Member Posts: 521 From: Registered: 11-28-2004 |
Max already said he isn't perfect. If you know you're right, why bother putting words into people's mouths? This thread is for discussing a movie that you said you haven't seen (and don't want to). I like hijacking threads, too, but sometimes you have to pick your battles. |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
warsong I asked you to see what you would answer.
I'm asking how good works enable perfection and at what point does one switch from being sinful man though perhaps saved, to approaching sainthood and the near perfection associated with it. You made a statement - repentance requires deep regret and a wish to undo what was done. I'm asking where do you get that information. You made a statement - something about Christian Jews vs non-Christian Jews and something about exceptions. The distinction of "Christian Jews" hasn't come up yet, though I didn't think you believed even Christian Jews weren't saved. I'm asking just to clarify. As I review the statement I do wonder what "exception" you might be referring to.
I requested clarification on what you defined as the "who" of the "so many" who did this interpretation that I should accept. See I have a couple of options as to what I think your answer might be, but I'm giving you the opportunity to say it without being influenced by any comment I might make or perhaps confuse the question by stating my assumption. You appear to have a lot of information you'd like to disseminate. Why should I state what I *think* you are going to say when I can ask and let you state what you would actually say? Ergo...the questions above. I have reviewed the thread and I didn't see anything that would have actually been considered *answers* to those questions. You might have approached the answers, perhaps even touched them, but the closest I could see at this time would have been sort of round-about responses buried in comments to slightly (or significantly) different points. If I missed something you said that was a more direct response to the questions (before they were asked) simply quote your statement. If you don't mind that is? Or if someone else shares warsong's views or understood his comments where I apparently missed...? [This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 19, 2006).] |
Simon_Templar Member Posts: 330 From: Eau Claire, WI USA Registered: 10-25-2004 |
Warsong, the condition of your heart is displayed both by your attitudes towards the jews, and towards your brothers here. As the bible says, out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
It should be the goal of every christian to strive for perfection. The fact that people immediately assume that means "strive in your own strength" is simply evident of the deficiency of teaching in modern christianity. Ereon and netcog are right that we do not have what it takes to be anything other than sinful failures... but it is God who works in us. He is bringing us on towards perfection. The grace of God always calls you onward towards perfection. ------------------ |
Max Member Posts: 523 From: IA Registered: 09-19-2004 |
Warsong - Hehe, reading your post was kinda funny. 8. HAHAHAHA, your last paragraph really got to me. - Not to be snide, or anything, but if I died now... I would be in Heaven. I've asked for Christ to be my savior, so I've saved. (Savior = saved, cool, eh?) 9. You may be right, I hope I'm not gonna change my ways later in life, that would suck a great deal, cus then I might go to Hell. But as for me and MY house, We will serve the Lord. I'm a Christian, God's GRACE has saved me. Max out--- For now ------------------ Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso |
missle Junior Member Posts: 1 From: hutchins,tx,us Registered: 08-19-2006 |
The passion is a good movie but some of it has been made up.Butilike the point of view that jesus hadwhen the roman soilders were hitting him when he saw the devil, that was true. |
Posts: From: Registered: |
I find the movie to be a ½ truth which ½ truths are closer to lies than truth. I don’t count how Mel interprets the movie in what he puts in that the bible doesn’t indicate but I do object to the things he puts in which the bible says it didn’t happen and takes out which the bible says it did and are important which people miss the point and like it for the wrong reasons. Cheese==== Netcog===== But if you want a direct answer again fine, about the saints I explained it which obviously you want it to be explained in different ways but I will let someone else answer that since I already said it. As for the other point about repentance well ask yourself if someone says they are sorry for doing bad to you and then they keep doing ti every day intentionally and enjoy it are they sorry? Only someone blind can not see that they do not regret their actions which they do it again. If someone robs you and they say they are sorry and do it again and again, can you trust them they will not do it again or will you take action to prevent it since you know they don’t really mean it. Here is something Simon======= As I told Netcog which the bible has many quotes similar to this I generally agree with what you have said and I generally agree with Ereon but I am clarifying that people should not think that just saying they are Christian will be enough and that people can be good if the break the barrier and not act like most people act in society. Max======== Sure it will be good if everyone went to heaven but not everyone will is the honest truth and not wishing anyone bad but its realistic. As the told Simon and Netcog “James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.” and the other explanations about it. ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
Warsong you've got the cart SEVERELY before the horse. You're telling others not to twist a verse but you're going and wringing the everlovin' snot out of this one. Head back to your Bible and research more on that one, you've takin a small snapshot of what you wish to present but there is much more to the picture then you've either taken a look at or wish to show. ------------------ Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one. |
Posts: From: Registered: |
Don't you have a comment about the movie? Or a repy about the movie? Yes when a train gets derailed it sometiems gets twisted. lol You "Opinion" is noted. ------------------ |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
*shrug* Call it an opinion if you wish, but there is much in James, indeed, in the same chapter of James that draws a very different picture. God's word needs no interpreter, it will interpret itself if you're willing to study and listen to it as the living Word of God. This thing isn't a dead collection of pages that you study like a text book, it's a multi-dimensional writing, full of things that you won't even notice until your mind and spirit are prepared for it. It's full of little details and tie-ins all over the place that add it the richness and beauty of its literary and spiritual texture. If you read your Bible right you're not just studying it, you're experiencing it, allowing God to speak to you through the pages and reveal himself and his wisdom and understanding to you as you do so. Anyhoo, there's alot to the picture that the one verse you're presenting, but I think that it will be more enjoyable for you if you find it on your own. P.S. I haven't seen the entire movie, only the first few scenes or so, my parent's bought it but we've never watched it. I personally don't really want to because I don't handle blood well. ------------------ Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one. |
Max Member Posts: 523 From: IA Registered: 09-19-2004 |
I know God. Plain and simple, who are you to say I don't? ------------------ Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso |
Posts: From: Registered: |
Yes the blood was over done in the movie. It is silly to say that someone can get beaten that much and loose so much blood to be able to walk at all. Has any experienced loosing so much blood to relate? ereon “And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city..." (Rv 22: 18,19)
------------------ |
NetCog Member Posts: 149 From: Registered: 06-15-2006 |
quote: Interesting. |
Ereon Member Posts: 1018 From: Ohio, United States Registered: 04-12-2005 |
Then, Warsong, why are you saying which people are going and not going to get into Heaven, why are you judging other people's relationships with God at all? To put it in the words of Paul, we are not worthy or capable of accurately judge ourselves, how then shall we judge others? Aren't you assuming the responsibility and task of being God's voice, condemning and praising others in the name of God, deciding who shall and shall not get into Heaven? You quote scripture about taking from Revelation's prophecies, but what other words of God's word are any more important than those? The truth lies not in the indivual pieces of the Word, but it's the entirety, just like the most dangerous lies are born, not nessecessarily from the things that are added, but more so from the things that are ommited. Take a deeper look, don't try to block out or ignore the things that don't mix with your theology or the point you're trying to make, embrace them, compare them and fit them together with other pieces of the whole, and discover the entire truth, not just the pieces that are conveinent or fit a theology or idea. ------------------ Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk. Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one. |
Max Member Posts: 523 From: IA Registered: 09-19-2004 |
Warsong, did I say I know everything about God? Nope, silly Warsong!! I said I know him. I know my friends, but I don't know EVERYTHING about them. So shut up and stop dissing people, you concieting egoist. I know my God, and have a relationship with him, so back off. ------------------ Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso |
Posts: From: Registered: |
Ereon Again a misunderstanding and assuming again! I am not saying who and who isn’t going to heaven, all I am saying is that God decides not us. People should be humble and not assume that they are good enough, and even the saints didn’t feel they were worthy enough. Even you just quoted Paul to say that people are not worth to judge themselves which I pointed that out to Max, so if you complain about me then you should also complain about yourself since you are saying the same thing. Max Ok this post is over since no one is commenting on the movie. ------------------ |