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THE PASSION – klumsy

Klumsy

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Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
I went and saw the passion. Did it enrich my life immensely? Did it change me significantly?
No.
But it was definitely worthwhile, and i treasured the experience a lot. Though the experience is made rich not so much because of the movie
but because of the context of who Jesus is in my life. Without that context - it could move me emotionally, maybe more so than other movies, if I didn't know anything about Christianity it would give me a glimpse about it, but without the context. If I had a marginal understanding of Christianity and a basic framework then it could do a lot for me, However being a Christian, treasuring the sacrifice Christ made for me personally makes it a very very personal and rich movie, reminding me of the sacrifice he made for me that I can too often take for granted.
So people claim it is , or will be the greatest evangelical tool this side of the cross. I disagree.
However despite the hype, controversy, a couple of confusing (to non believers) and doctrinally unstable parts, and the frailty of human vessels, I Believe that God is behind it and he is using it for His glory, even unto salvation, But I must point out that it is not the gospel. Any media or tool, no matter how excellent, relevant or useful, can never be a substitute for the gospel - the written word of God or the testimony of Christ living in sanctified submitted vessels. I do suggest taking as many non Christian friends to it as possible. To a generation which now thinks with its eyes rather than with its mind, the visual medium is often the only way to get through to them, and God can use this to touch peoples hearts deeply and get rid of preconceptions and mindsets that exalt themselves against the knowledge of God and blind people to the truth, But just don't have hope in the film, have hope in Jesus - He is the author and perfected of our faith. His work has being going on throughout history with power and force and the spirit has been working in the hearts of men , drawing them to God for generations come and gone - this movie is a part of that, but just a part, we need to be thankful and embrace it, but keep it in context. This movie cannot save people, however it can be a catalyst for salvation for those whom God has been working on their hearts, drawing them to Himself, and it can also be a seed to others. Just remember the bigger picture. It is much easier to shown Christ to somebody in a movie than it is to show Christ to somebody in our lives and in our loving.

Now I want to cover a bit more about the movie itself without giving away too much.
The movie is the last 12 hours of his life, so it doesn't really build up the context of his life, his purpose, his message - the gospel, though it does give glimpses through 'flashbacks'. As i was watching it i was analyzing it twofold - one in relation to me - a Christian who knows the background and the gospel pretty well, and to whom the crucifixion, the sacrifice, Jesus Blood, Death and Resurrection mean a great deal and great relevance - In this context the movie is AWESOME. It is like a most excellent devotion. However i also looked at it in the context of a non-Christian who doesn't understand the foundations of the gospel, and maybe not even details about the events. Through these second pair of glasses i see that though it a useful evangelical tool, its use is of only to a certain level (other than with God's miraculous work on men's hearts , Hallelujah) The thing is that although it portrays the details of Christs sacrifice and death, it doesn't portray the meaning so well. It doesn't show the viewer the sinfulness of the viewer, nor their need to repent, and their need of a saviour (though thankfully the Holy Spirit brings conviction of sin). In this regard I was disappointed till the 2nd half of the movie as the flashbacks up till then didn't cover stuff that would shed light to the viewer the message of the gospel. However as it progressed I was joyfully pleased that the flashback and dialogs contained more spiritual truth , the message, the gospel , though overall not enough of a chunk to reveal enough of the picture for a firm foundation of belief in Jesus Christ. However throughout history many people have begun their walk of faith on a very flimsy, even incorrect foundation and the grace of God has led them to the right way (However in modern days, many people have gotten 'saved' on a feel good, what can i get from God sort of gospel, and the longterm fruit is lacking). I suppose what i am saying is that i had hoped it would have contained more of the gospel. Yet it is still a very good evangelistic tool, as long as you don't try to make it replace Jesus outworking through us in ministering to others, or replace the solid word of God.

Another issue is extrabiblical information. In making a movie about something that we were not there - it is impossible not to add extrabiblical info, but i believe it to be mostly accurate, and the majority of extra biblical information is neutral enough to be doctrinally sound, and not is definitely not anti or wrong. However there are 2 or 3 things that to a solid Christian can be interpreted in context , though maybe still a little confusing, but for the sake of the non Christian would have been much better to have left out as they just add confusion and take away from Christ and the main message of the film and the gospels.(these parts being relating the demons oppressing judas and the devil's repesentation at one time as a women carrying a very bizarre looking baby).
Some of the things are because of catholic influence but most are very benign. Actually on the catholic front i am very very pleased how Mary the mother of Jesus was portrayed. She was portrayed as the mother of the divine, rather than the Divine Mother. She was very human, and not a deity to be prayed to, not an icon. I was actually pleased with all the characters, the humanity of them and the situations, and both the humanity and the divinity (that mysterious mix) displayed in Christ.

anyway I am very positive about it, though this review may seem to sound otherwise, I just am cautious and don't want to see christians focus too much on this latest means, this movie rather than on Christ and his plan of salvation for the whole world and the mystery of how he uses us the church in that process.

as for antisemetism , it is not there, the same accusations about its antisemetism can be hurled at the gospels themselves (and often is, and at us Christians who take the bible to actually be the inspired word of God, not just a metaphor). I can see how people can get this message out of it, i suppose the one thing that the movie could have done more to detract from this accusation would be to show how it is Every one of us that is responsible for his death, that it is for ALL our sins, not just the jews, not just the romans), but through history and to come, the Devil and men use and twist the scripture for their own evil purposes (antisemetism being one of them, the same will happen (though i pray that it doesn't) with this movie)

as for the gore, the media had hyped this up to be the most violent and gory movie of all time. I didn't see it that way. I've seen many more violent and full of gore movies with no rating. the violence in here is for a purpose and i don't believe it is overdone. The camera cuts away at certain times to make sure its not overdone, even though the detail is very graphic. But we have to remember what that blood of Jesus means to us.


For some Christians who walk a distant walk, whose religions is more a cultural thing than a personal thing with Christ, or who may not have appropriated the actual sacrifice Christ made for our sins (or our actual need for a saviour, that to save us He had to pay such a price) this movie can be a life changing experience/ catalyst as it with the help of the Holy Spirit of course prompts us to start/continue/recommit to a vital abiding in Christ , with great thanksgiving and appreciation for our salvation, and with growing love for Him and for others. This is the area i see the greatest potential of this movie. Inspire people to take us their crosses and live for Christ daily, totally, not just living a half hearted, lukewarm life where we want God to serve us and our needs rather than serving him, or where God is just #3 or #4 on our priority. I pray and hope that it prompts many onto solid commitment and to fruits of rightouesness.

Also i have great hope that it will get nonchristians thinking about and being open to the things of God, and knowing how cool my God is, He will be engineering the right christians to get into this persons life to share the full gospel and to be a living gospel to them.

As the greatest video tool for evangelism. though it is very great showing the suffering and cost that christ paid, i think it does not show the full gospel, and for evangelism it is not enough. though this movie is made better, with great storytelling, effects, production, and excellence of a movie, i still think that for general evangelism around the world the "jesus film" is more powerful, bevcause it contains the very words of the gospel, and the word of God does not come back void and i know that the Jesus film has been shown to more than a billion people in many language (i think more than 2 billion even, maybe more) with great fruit. Also the clay animation miracle maker movie is one of the best overall accurate Jesus movies i have seen. the passion is definately the most powerful and accurate crucifixion movie ever made, and probably ever to be made, and it raised the bar of excellence for christian media - which is needed to reach the MTV generation (and TV generation in general)

I will see this movie again and again. it will prompt me to read the gospels and i'm sure it will open up my eyes to certian things in scripture i may not have pondered so much before, and will change me some, But its overall effect on me today was quite significant, but not as signficant as the communion i had this morning at church prayer meeting.

I think this review will need alot of revising
Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

bennythebear

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Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
i hope i have a chance to see it while it's in theatres, and not have to wait until it's out on dvd. i've seen and heard some of the hype surrounding the movie, and i'm skeptical by nature. my biggest fear is watching the movie with a carnal mind, i know it'll be good if i'm thinking spiritually. i want to get a few friends together to go see the movie. anywho...later and GOD bless.
BluePaladin

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Posts: 110
From: Tennessee, USA
Registered: 12-27-2002
I cried like a baby. I had heard every teaching before, so it's not that I went to learn something new, but I got a visual representation of the Cross in my mind.

I agree that the movie should be treated as a work of art, because that's what it is. But I wept like there was no tomorrow and all I could say was, "I'm sorry Lord." over and over and "I love you Lord" and "Please Forgive Me".

My heart is filled with sorrow of how lightly we've taken the Cross when my Jesus paid such a price. I am not the same person after seeing that movie. See it in the theater if you can. I don't think a T.V. will do this justice.

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We are at war: not to take lives, but to save them.

ArchAngel

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From: SV, CA, USA
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It is the single most powerful movie ever.
It really hits you hard and makes you think about the ultimate sacrifice that was paid.

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Klumsy

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From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
it is deeply personal,
when i see the floggings that rip the flesh from him and drain his blood (that blood that saves and covers me, and that flesh - the body of Him which is my substanence.) i see myself as that roman soldier and my sins as the whip thing..

Though i think the physical suffering of Jesus is just the start of the story, i am sure there are untold hundreds, maybe millions of people who have suffered as horrible a tortured death,
But not only did he suffer the physical agony (something we are humans can relate to), but total seperation from God, something he would have never experienced before ever..
not only that, taking on the sins of the world - of everybody at ONCE!.. i know the pain of grieving with people who have been raped, had a loved one commit suicide etc, but Jesus actually took on the weight of all those sins, all the murders, hates, rejections, rapes, molestations , lies and more of everybody ever.. so intense.. at the same time as being seperated from God - He experienced the worst of Hell plus more, and at the same time of total agony that would drive anybody insane and make them loose them mind..

And he did that all for me.

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

ArchAngel

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Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
that's what really hits you. I mean, if the physical pain is that bad... and the spiritual pain is worse... and He did it for you. WHOA!

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bennythebear

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Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
if the good LORD is willing i'm going to see it tonight. but i don't know how HE's got things worked out for me. GOD is good. the previous week i've been getting some massive chastenings, but now i'm getting blessed, and i'm ready to grow again. i just listened to a song by jonah33, "all for you". it's a heavier style of music, but it's the gospel. talking about how if i(or any one person) was the only one who sinned HE'd die for us, so it's our sins that drove the nails. i just want to share that beautiful gospel. a SAVIOUR who gave it all for us. people need to hear and SEE that love from us. i could use some prayers, not so much for me, but for those who GOD is going to use me to reach, i just want that light to shine without hendrance from the flesh. GOD bless y'all.
BluePaladin

Member

Posts: 110
From: Tennessee, USA
Registered: 12-27-2002
Jonah33 is very cool.

I was a little skeptical myself, but if you watch the movie with the mindset of "He's doing this for my sins", you will be renewed and will weep for the Cross.

I saw it for a 2nd time tonight and I still was blown away. I have to see it with my mom next Thursday, so I will have bought 4 sets of tickets (we bought a pair for my wife's mom and dad). We should all support the Passion in every way possible so that more movies like this will be made instead of the trash normally put out.

Praise God for Mel Gibson's obedience to the Holy Spirit!

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We are at war: not to take lives, but to save them.

Skynes
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Posts: 202
From: Belfast, N Ireland
Registered: 01-18-2004
I haven't seen it yet but I'm already feeling sorrowful just from hearing ppl talk about it.
Brandon

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Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
I just saw it yesterday, and I was deeply touched. To see those events brought to life like that really blew me away. Knowing that I was one of many who were responsible for His sufferings brought me to tears as I watched the movie unfold. As the movie played, I thought he did this for me and everyone else, ... it's amazing, God's love is amazing. It's incredible that if I had been the only one that was to ever sin that He'd come and do it all just for me. Thank you Jesus!

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Atomic Team Entertainment
http://www.atomicteam.com

[This message has been edited by Brandon (edited February 29, 2004).]

D-SIPL

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Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
It's not out until the 26th March here in the England, so won't be able to see it yet. It's actually released the day i fly out to America.

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

bennythebear

Member

Posts: 1225
From: kentucky,usa
Registered: 12-13-2003
i finally saw it last night. i agree with klumsy's original post. it's worthwhile, and being a CHRISTian it meant a lot. but it's not the same as the written word of GOD, or the preached word of GOD(which also includes witnessing). i also noticed some parts that were simply just not in the bible. but i could nitpick anything to death. it had CHRIST beat, humiliated, and crucified for our sins, so it can't be a bad movie.(don't read if you don't want to know anything that happens in the movie) oh, and my favorite part, it had the resurrection. i believe without the resurrection we have no hope. did anyone else notice the whole in HIS hand at the end of the movie as HE was walking off? anywho, GOD bless
graceworks
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Posts: 455
From: Corvallis, Oregon, USA
Registered: 03-03-2001
Yes Benny, saw the hole (although technically he should've been nailed at the wrist between the two major bones of the forearm - why? The Scripture says no bone was broken but nailing through the hand would've certainly broken on of the 13+ bones there. Plus, almost everyone shows ropes - but I've heard accounts of no ropes, or at least they are supporting his weight. But I digress).

The last 15 seconds of the movie is awesome ... but too short. If you missed it, you would think that Jesus only died. I better stop there so not to spoil it for folks who haven't seen it or our English Brethren (especially the one who won't reply to my Email or Private Messages! :-) ).

If you get a chance, DO see this movie!!

God bless,
Tim

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Called by God. The passioned plea of a father. The journey awaits at Jarod's Journey.

D-SIPL

Moderator

Posts: 1345
From: Maesteg, Wales
Registered: 07-21-2001
quote:
Originally posted by graceworks:
I better stop there so not to spoil it for folks who haven't seen it or our English Brethren (especially the one who won't reply to my Email or Private Messages! :-) ).


*looks around* You mean me? heh. My usual email address bounces at the mo, my linux box is down, and thats my mail server so send it to my graceworks address and i'll get them fine. No pm's neither, i did reply to your last one.

Anyhoo, lets try not to steal this thread ... email me Tim!

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

Mr. Ex Nihilo

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Posts: 19
From: Canada
Registered: 03-28-2004
______________

The last 15 seconds of the movie is awesome ... but too short.

If you get a chance, DO see this movie!!

God bless,
Tim
______________

I agree so much. This was an awesome movie. My wife was really moved by it too. I don't think she ever deeply thought about how much he went through for us until she saw this movie. I encourage others to see it (nvite a friend if it's still playing).

Blessings,
Dale

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Do not forget to entertain strangers,
for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.

Hebrews 13:2 (NIV)

pillaroftruth

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Posts: 28
From: North Hollywood, CA, USA
Registered: 08-30-2003
Read this ->>> http://www.av1611.org/Passion/passion.html
ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
av1611...

ugh.

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Soterion Studios

Klumsy

Administrator

Posts: 1061
From: Port Angeles, WA, USA
Registered: 10-25-2001
yeah i had read that some time again.

despite the fact that it twists quotes, takes things out of context, makes alot of assumptions, and all other sorts of problems, some of the issues are worth looking at, and being aware of

for we should test everything, and not just accept everything blindly.

However i would advise NOT letting the bitterness and unreasonable legalism of av1611 to infect anybody.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

mjohnson

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Posts: 48
From:
Registered: 08-03-2006
I think it's kinda sad how some Christians jumped on the whole Passion of the Christ bandwagon and now all of the junk about Mel Gibson is coming out...I mean, Jesus came to earth as a Jewish man...
Lazarus

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Posts: 1668
From: USA
Registered: 06-06-2006
It is sad that he'd say those things. I don't think it detracts from the value of the movie though.
Your last sentence confuses me.
What if he'd made some anti-Italian comments? It's still wrong, and the Jews rejected Jesus, IMO they aren't some special group to be venerated either.

Lazarus




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I don't care to see it since Christís resurrection is more important than his death since not everyone gets resurrected.

I don't like that Mel is pushing for the distorted Catholic view since they didn't talk Aramaic to each other but Ancient Greek which the catholic church tires to confuse people on that matter to show they are the originators. But still besides that I don't care to see a movie with gore. Also he should have kept the part where the Jews say that are liable since we went that far so why not go all the way since the entire bible and every Christian is antisemetic automatically anyway even though some Christians donít want to believe it.

Christ has to come as a Jew since if he did not then the Jews would call him an antisemite sine it is very hard to convince them that they over exaggerate. lol Even Christ said he goes to the "sick" people first. Since they lost their status as chosen people and it has been given to a "NEW NATION" as the bible says, and no Christianity alone is not a nation but the "faith".

Also I think that Christ did not die for our sins in a way, but for those before his coming. Since they didnít know what was right and didn't Christ go down to Hell to free them? As for us we have a one pay pass to go up or down. I should reaserch this point some more.

I find this paying for our sins part to be used as a cop out for many since they think its ok to sin since Christ died for their sins and feel that are not paying any price for it. We know what we have to do and we pay for it and we donít have any excuses unlike the people before Christ.

Also I find using scare tactics and violence to convince people is not the Christian way in my opinion. In the end only Mel could have made the movie since all of Hollywood did not want to make it since as many Jews admit that on TV that Jews run Hollywood.

Anyway if some people like the movie then enjoy.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 05, 2006).]

Ereon

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Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Here we go again.....

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
Also he should have kept the part where the Jews say that are liable since we went that far so why not go all the way since the entire bible and every Christian is antisemetic automatically anyway even though some Christians donít want to believe it.

Biblical proof please.

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
Also I think that Christ did not die for our sins in a way, but for those before his coming. Since they didnít know what was right and didn't Christ go down to Hell to free them? As for us we have a one pay pass to go up or down.

Once again, Biblical proof please.

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
In the end only Mel could have made the movie since all of Hollywood did not want to make it since as many Jews admit that on TV that Jews run Hollywood.

Do you have any more information on this fact, as in information to support it outside of something you heard on TV, or any comments on why you apparently consider this a bad thing?

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.
C. S. Lewis

www.christiangaming.com




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The second point is an opinion and the part about doing down to hell I hear it on TV many times when they talk about the bible but I donít know about that part. The others are facts stated many places on TV, News, books, etc.

As for your comment why is it bad well look at the crap they put out intentionally to feed people since its not to help us but hurt us. You don't need proof since you can logically deduct it all. If you donít want to believe it then its a shame that people need proof than to think it out since we won't always have proof that 1+1=2 or 26842x37=993154 in a book specifically and we have to use logic.

But I'll give you a hint in PM.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Um, on your first question, about the whole Bible and Christians being automatically antisemetic, I asked for Biblical info on that, if you could show me some that might help me understand a bit better. As for Jews intentionally feeding people "crap", I would venture to say that it is more than just the Jews who do so, and also that in may not be done intentionally, there are more coordinative forces at work in the world than just us humans, it seems more logical to me that those who feed us this stuff are simply giving people what they percieve people want, something that is measured by what people are willing to pay to be fed this stuff. As for logic, logic used by humans can often be incorrect, either from wrong information, incomplete information, personal distortions, or just simple mistakes in the processes used. For that reason I strive to try and treat any man's sayings (especially my own), ESPECIALLY those based on logic, with a great deal of care. I do not trust man's logic, I do, however, infallibly trust God's words, hence the reason I'm asking for Biblical information to backup your claims.

P.S. I responded to your PM

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.
C. S. Lewis

www.christiangaming.com

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited August 06, 2006).]




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The term anti Semite was not used then just like the world politically correct.

Here is the omitted part from the movie since the bible is seen as anti Semitic. But donít worry people if you donít like it since politically correct people that donít will get their way and the bible banned eventually if things continue the way they are going and then you could all be praising Islam or some future religion silly religion. I have seen the bible edited too much and its pathetic what some Christians believe.

ďMatthew 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
27:26 Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.ď
http://bible.cc/matthew/27-25.htm
We are praising a blasphemous traitor in the eyes of Jews. Hey they didnít think that Christ was God and found it a joke and were 100% confident that he was not tried to get rid of Christianity after that many times with false christian sects, persecuting Christians, writing fake Christian books, etc. They only way to take it back is to convert but they donít want to and are against the religion. How would you feel if your family member went to a ďcrazy occultĒ that said you family member is God and you try to stop it by trying to set your family member to go to jail and try to make people go back to being Christian but you fail and they just go stronger?


ď8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye willdo. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in thetruth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, hespeaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.ď

"Ye have been rebellious against the LORD from the day that I knew you." Deuteronomy 9:24
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." Acts 7:51 Paul

I would like to see a Christian movie after Christ came when where Jews persecuted Christians and threw them in with the lions in the gladiator arena. But darn it the truth again is in the way of being anti Semitic, so letís make up some words like politically correct and change history to see everything as roses. But history repeats itself when then truth is not spoken and candy coated. Also kind of odd how some people praise the savage Romans lately and giving them more credit than they deserve.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
I posted another reply to your new PM

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.
C. S. Lewis

www.christiangaming.com

jestermax

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Posts: 1064
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 06-21-2006
As for the posts that i write, if i'm wrong about any points then anyone here can feel free to tell me and i will talk to them about it.

quote:
I don't care to see it since Christís resurrection is more important than his death since not everyone gets resurrected.

I would like to comment on this like from warsong. If my memory of the book of Revelation serves me. Everyone is going to be resurrected because we are all subject to God's judgement.
As to your preference of resurrection verses death, at first one would agree with you, since he has done something supernatural and has defied death. On a second glance though, consider the fact that that Christ died for our sins. I am going to stop there because this leads into another series of discussions.

i edited this post because i misunderstood some of the arguments being made and once again acted too quickly and rashly. sorry for anyone who witnessed it (and those who didn't )

[This message has been edited by jestermax (edited August 08, 2006).]

[This message has been edited by jestermax (edited August 08, 2006).]

NetCog

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Resurrection can be a tricky term if not defined correctly when discussing the Final Judgement, and general discussion of human resurrection should probably include a discussion on "when".

Humans are (after birth) "dicotimus" - body and soul. Humans after salvation are "tricotimus" - body, soul, spirit.

We've got a series of events that we're not 100% sure on the timeline or details.
1. Christ returns in some fashion, takes all the believers, 7 year tribulation starts.
2. Christ returns in some fashion, whoops Satan, tosses him into a pit, rules for 1000 years.
3. Satan is released, people choose...maybe a final battle?, somewhere in there is Judgement Day followed by eternity - new heaven, new earth, perhaps new bodies?

Some believers (or believers?) are supposed to rule nations during the 1000 years. I would assume that to mean some get a body back. Apparently at some point we get new bodies...when that is I'm not sure. And whether unbelievers ever enter into the equation with new bodies....I'm sort of doubting it but I couldn't say for sure either way.

This might fall under "useless speculation"


p.s. The truth exists regardless of what the media might say. The Bible doesn't hide anything about the persecution of Christians - from Romans or Jews (Saul anyone?) but it hardly has anything to do with being "Anti-Semitic". It's sort of like if someone were to come up to me with gossip - you don't respond, you merely look dense, "Why are you bringing this to me?" The label of anti-semitic with regards to the Bible is a baseless, useless, and altogether futile argument promoted only by those wishing to stir up trouble. Ignore them. Just as you would (should) refuse to be drawn into an argument where someone belittles marriage in favor of simply living together. Know what is true and move on. If someone really wants your advice, they'll ask for it.
-- Though there may come a time when staunch, strong, and loudly standing up for beliefs is required....I don't think it is nearly as often as some people we occasionally see in the media might think it is.
-- One might consider attention to your kids far more effective at changing public opinion than any amount of soapbox rants. Next to that would be asking questions to get people to think, not making accusatory statements.
-- I should note, this is something I have a long way to grow yet.


p.p.s. The history of the Bible has endured far more persecution, attempts to discredit, and distortions in history past than it has today...or at the very least it isn't any worse now than at times in the past. It survived centuries as scraps of paper, scattered scrolls, and behind closed doors and in closed minds....I think God's big enough to keep it alive through the age of mass and massive communication.

Max

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Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Warsong, you cannot take a few versus alone and go off of what they say, you must take in the context of the entire chapter.

Weird, I thought the point was for him to die for our sins, so we could go to Heaven. Being Ressurected was just to prove that Satan had no hold on him. All the people who died as true Christians, will be ressurected, but only one person will have died for the sins of mankind.

Who cares about what the media says is anti-semitic? The Jewish people, the ones in the mobs, along with the Roman soldiers, crucified Jesus. The Jewish people had a chance to free Jesus, but they chose to have him crucified.

When was the last time that the Bible was edited? Did I miss something? As far as I know, there are different versions, such as NIV, and King James, but I'm pretty sure they all have the same message.

Yes, it is pathetic what some Christians believe, but I think it's pathetic what some Islamic people think. I think Buddhism and such is kinda looney. I think the Jewish religion is funny, cus salvation is based on if you're a good Jew or not. (Heard from a Rabbi in my college class)

I couldn't understand your paragraph about the blaspheming traitor, I got confused in the last sentences.

8:44 and 8:45, where are they from?

Once again, you cannot take one verse of the Bible and live by it, you gotta look at the context. There is a verse that's like "Stay single if you want" and another one that says "Marriage is good, do it." You gotta look at the context.

Who has changed History? No one as far as I know. When's the last time History repeated and Jesus got crucified again? Hmmm, I can't seem to remember.

------------------
To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

NetCog

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quote:
Originally posted by max:
Weird, I thought the point was for him to die for our sins, so we could go to Heaven. Being Ressurected was just to prove that Satan had no hold on him. All the people who died as true Christians, will be ressurected, but only one person will have died for the sins of mankind.

Note: The death and resurrection is part and parcel. It's not something you can really separate which had what meaning because if Jesus simply died then there's an implication where the conclusion leads to Jesus was just a man (no different than any other prophet like Isaiah or Moses) and thus not capable of paying the penalty for everyone's sin.




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The Catholic movie the passion puts a guilt trip on people to believe while the Orthodox church is against that and wants people to belief not out of guilt since that is the wrong reason to be religious, since Christianity focuses on the means justifying the end and not the atheist Machiavelli way that the ends justify the means.
That is why I am against the passion since it is missing the "big picture" despite it being a big motion picture lol.


jester
I feel that people interpret it wrong when they say Christ died for our sins since they feel that they can sin since they donít have to pay the price since Christ played for it. I find that to be one of the most abused quotes in the bible thatís all.

Net
where did u get your information?
Anti-Semitism is not use at people that donít like Jews but people that Jews don't like.


MAX
Some protestant churches want to change it and want to change the word man to people, ignore the part that it says that their should not be music in church since most sects do it, it says not to take the bible into your own hands and interpret it, etc also peoples interpretations to other formats like movies have been distorted like the passion to take off the quotes I pointed out and many other things. Well so many sects ignore a lot of the bible anyway and most Christian sects are liberalized and unchristian.

Yes you have the look at the entire bible and people should not nit pick, but the foundation for most Christian sects generally nit pick which is silly to say they are all equal.
As the movie the highlander said "their can only be one" lol

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

NetCog

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From:
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quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
Net
where did u get your information?
Anti-Semitism is not use at people that donít like Jews but people that Jews don't like.


Dude, what are you talking about?

(from Google)

"discrimination against or persecution of Jews"

"Anti-Semitism (alternatively spelled antisemitism) is hostility towards or prejudice against Jews (not, in common usage, Semites in general ó see the Scope section below). This happens on an individual level and goes on to the institutionalized prejudice and persecution once prevalent in European societies, of which the highly explicit ideology of Adolf Hitler's National Socialism was the most extreme form. "

[This message has been edited by netcog (edited August 14, 2006).]




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ummm no! You don't get it. And I'll explain why in PM.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

CheeseStorm
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You can't defeat the dictionary, dude. It knows too much.
NetCog

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responding here as I didn't want to pm and post here w/ most of the same stuff...saves time to just say it all here.

There is a world of difference between being anti-semetic and being against the policies of people who might happen to be of jewish ancestry....

1. Not everyone on that 'agenda' is jewish.

2. It doesn't matter what 'they' believe.

3. I would and still do support Israel despite what some might be doing here. They might not be perfect, they might be in the wrong, but I'm sure as heck not going to advocate going to war against them....nations did that, even at the "behest" of God to punish Israel....and those nations still got beat down in the end. No thanks. Let some other nation be God's tool for punishing Israel (if it should need it). Same goes with regards to a pastor who might be in the wrong....I'm going to do my level best not to touch him or the issues at stake with a 10 foot pole....or perhaps even be within visual or hearing distance.

4. Israel has not been "cast aside" like an old cloth never to be picked up again. The redirection of the salvation message was not much of a different situation than each time in the Old Testament the jewish tribes were scattered. This time is a "special time", but there is still an emphasis on Israel.

5. There is no massive conspiracy. There might be threads, but there is no council of Masons or Jews running the US or the world....


6. and finally: Jesus Christ controls history. Not you, not me, not Osama, not the president of the media.


p.s. The statement regarding change found in Revelations has to do with Revelations. It might be applied to the rest of the Bible but it was specifically for that book. To apply it to the rest of the "Bible" as some (you for example) seem to think, requires that the Bible would have been a completed work, bound together, at the time of Revelation's writing.

p.p.s. What you told me was nothing I hadn't heard and has not changed my mind.

Honestly I didn't hear what Mel said. I really don't care because it doesn't mean anything. It means something to him and he was apparently drunk...take from that what you will. People say probably worse things all the time and they are stone cold sober, some even have malicious intent and the means to enact it.

Lot and his family (minus his wife at the end) were saved even though the city(s) were destroyed. *shrug* I've been angry and upset at the world situation for years now, it's time I grew up and focused on what was important.

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Ah yes, Warsong, you're right, not all parts are perfect, but not all are as outlandish as you make it seem.

That would be like me saying all Jews are tight with money. Called a stereotype.

I mean, take the literal definition of Anti-semitic. 1. Anti - against. 2. Semtitic - Jewish.
Seems to me to be against Jews.

Just because Mel said something while he's drunk, doesn't make him a non-believer, or anything like that. I'm sure he's asked for forgiveness, etc.

What I don't get about Jews is, that God chose them and they don't choose God. How weird is that?

------------------
To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

Ereon

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Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
That is something to think about Max. A recurring theme that shows up in Romans and 1 Corinthians is that WE didn't choose God either, that we could not of chosen Him unless He had first chosen us. Goes along with that verse that says "No man can come to Christ unless he draws him" sorry, don't have a refrence, my computer Bible is on my other computer. But anyhoo, it's interesting to think about, and also quite encouraging, because even when we sin or turn away, or, in the case of some, even waaaay back when we were horrible sinner He STILL chose us and He still chose to draw us to Himself.

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.
C. S. Lewis

www.christiangaming.com




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Max
Imperfection is like doing a 1/2 *** job, and Ĺ way is not good enough since it can be Ĺ truths and Ĺ truths are closer to lies than truths which have doesnít far more devastation than intentional evil.

I tried to see the movie but it was over done and missed the point. For example the Romans and Judeans spoke Greek to one another and not Latin which the Roman church tried to present since it was a catholic movie or Aramaic which Protestants like, which they loose what the inspired word of God is. Itís like taking things out of context which people integrate wrong. As I said before making people be Christians for the wrong reasons is not a Christian view.

Stereotypes are not all bad. Fox example in the air port should they search Al gore as they did just in case he has a bomb? Obviously not and the suspects are most likely Muslims. They used an algorithm to scan people which were effective but politically correct people objected to it which helps bring about 911. If I say Jews and blacks vote liberal is that stereotyping even though that that they say and stats say? If a Jew says it its ok but if a non Jew says it its bad? No wonder Christ was a Jew since non Jews would call him and anti-Semite as well. To say Jews run Hollywood and the media is that stereotyping when they admit it? Blacks have darker skin than whites is that stereo typing? People stereotype the stereotype which is hypocritical and contradictory which they donít get it. One way to attack facts is to be politically correct.

Semite doesnít mean Jewish, it means people of that region, even Muslims are Semitic. Jewish is not a religion or race since their skin is not Semitic if you didnít notice already. Jews are a ďsocialĒ group of people with their views.

God chose them because they didnít choose God. Christ said to go to the sick (in soul) first sick first, just like how a doctor heals the sick (physically).


Netcog
Is their something wrong with you? Quit derailing the post.

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"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Isn't imperfection an inherent trait of the human race? Isn't imperfection the very reason we need God in the first place, not even to help us be perfect, but to justify us, because we can never be perfect? Isn't that what grace is all about? Isn't grace the entire reason God chose Israel, isn't grace the entire reason he chose the Gentiles, isn't grace the entire reason he chose ANY of us? There is neither Jew nor Greek, circumscised or uncircumscised because we are ALL in need of grace, aren't we?

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.
C. S. Lewis

www.christiangaming.com




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We have to strive to be perfect or close enough to it. Which is why there are saints that have done good and not sinned like the majority. Can you then strive to be just as good as the saints or will you fall short? But again so many lies float around that no one is saint material.

Chose Israel for what to be Jewish? But as you stated neither Jew nor Greek to get the world of God, no man or women, no rich or poor. It does not mean their there are no differences which many people confuse, and gays use the protestant interpretation to be priest in protestant churches. But when Christ says Jew and Greek, Christ renamed some of his apostles to Greek names, the apostles spreads it in Greece which help make the orthodox Churches, Greek is the inspired word of God if people want to understand the bible better than how many misinterpret, the original tradition, culture of the early Christian church was Greek, Ancient Greek music is chanting which Christ talked like that to the masses and thatís how the church does its services without instruments since its also again the bible which other Christ sects put their own spin on Christianity, have more miracles year round, they have the original NT, and the official OT in Greek, etc etc which no other Christian sect has what they have. People like Socrates were considered a Christian before Christ, and have influenced other ideologies from Buddhism, Hinduism, etc which is why you see similarities. Even the Jewish language was made with the help of the ancient Greeks.
Christ analogy was to show the opposites that even the most extreme side from extreme bad to extreme good can be saves, from Alpha to Omega, from being clueless to be informed, etc.

Think about it.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

NetCog

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Posts: 149
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quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
We have to strive to be perfect or close enough to it.

Prove it and why.

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 15, 2006).]

jestermax

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Posts: 1064
From: Ontario, Canada
Registered: 06-21-2006
Christ was perfect, and we (christians) should be trying as much as possible to be like him. I don't have the scripture for it but its new testiment somewhere
Jari

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Posts: 1471
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Registered: 03-11-2005
About being holy, I recommend to read the whole of peter's letter, at least the first chapter. This is however what couple verses say:

1Pe 1:15-16 KJV But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

I don't want to say anything about the topic, just pointing that out.

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2Co 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

[VoHW] (Help needed) [Blog] - Truedisciple (mp3)




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Jari
Always interesting to read your comments. Come on you can give one comment about the movie lol.
If you are afraid that someone will object to what you say, well at least you can hear another point and think about it or rectify the other about it. lol

Good thing you replied to him (netcog) since I would have not because I don't think he wants to listen or understand at times since people seem to believe what they want to believe. I think he said that comment since he thinks that being a Christians you can sin as much and as bad as you want and be always saved no matter what. That more like an old Jewish ideology than christian.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

[This message has been edited by warsong (edited August 15, 2006).]

jestermax

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From: Ontario, Canada
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Which "him" are you talking about? netcog or myself? (or another post a while ago?)
Ereon

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Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
I think he was talking about me Jest.

Warsong, since when is it within the abilities of human kind to even be perfect, or even to try with a humble and contrite additude? What is our capacity for perfection, our ability to mirror the one and only Christ within our own lives, the God/man who was the empitamy of perfection, the very thing we all as Christians attain to become? Jari's right, the Bible says "be holy as I am holy", but has it ever struck you how confundedly impossible that command is? It's struck me recently, and stuck me hard, it is a completely, utterly, impossible task, beyond anything tha man kind is capable of even COMPREHENDING, much less executing under their own power. We can try, we can follow rules and commandments, even the best of rules and commandments from God himself, but no matter how hard we climb, all this does is stir pride and hypocrisy in our hearts, pride flowing from a ballooned view of ourselves, stemming from the root of our own views and beliefs of our own self sufficencies. If there is anyone on this planet guilty of this it's me. What is our capacity for perfection, what is our ability to live a life of holiness?

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isa 64:7

What's the best we can do? What is the difference between a saint and a sinner? The division between a man of God and a down right heathen? It is a simple, and single thread that seperates the two.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

Eph 1:4-8

This is the single thread, the single point which seperates the two, that HE chose US, even before we chose him. This is the crux of my point, the only reason we can even be holy, the only reason we can even be who we are, is by HIM, and him alone.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:5

Unless we look to him, unless we explicitly trust him and look to him as the sole source of strength, our ability to be pure, our ability to live, our ability to even be who we are, or hope for what we may become, then we can do absolutely nothing.

If you ask the saints I wonder what they'd say, what is the history of these men and women of God who did such great things, and what was it that allowed them to be who we were? Look at these.

Paul
Occupation: Pharisee, persecuter and murder of the early church

History: Zealous Pharisee, consented to the stoning of Stephen and responsible for numerous other murders and incarceration of many Christians within Israel under the authority of the High Priest.

Peter
Occupation: Simple fisherman

History: Chosen disciple of Christ, notoriously hot headed and impulsive, struck off the ear of the High Priest's servant, and later denyed Jesus himself threee times within the space of a few minutes.

Take away the fame, strip away the accomplishments, and what do you have? What is left when you look back at what these awesome men of God were. You could go on and on with stories like these, saints who were simple paupers, Christians who commited atrocious sins, and I am one of them. My story?

Zachary Taylor
Occupation: High School Student

History: Addicted to pornography and masturbation at the age of 12, stuck in addiction for 5 years, 5 years of bondage and repetetive sin.

But here's the best part, each of these stories is another part. In each of these saints, in each of these men of God that we read about and seek to emulate there was a point of destiny, a point in which God stuck forth his hand and chose them, even before they chose him. Paul went on to be an apostle, he planted churchs all over the known world, and brought the gospel to Europe. Peter became one of the 12 apostles, and he to spread the gospel of Christ to the four winds. He united the churchs, and governed them with wisdom and level headedness. But it was God who they trusted in, it was in Him that they found their strength. They found it in quietness and trust, in calmness and humility. They surrendered themselves, and let God work in them, willing to "sit in the lowest room", honestly even to the point that they would be content in doing so even if it was the only thing that God ever asked them to do in their lives. They understood that is was God, it was HIM who made them pure, in Him they were justified, in Him they lived and moved, and in Him they had their being. What's your story, what is your tale of God's goodness. Your tale of ultimate surrender, what is written in it's pages. What is your past, what is your history, what darkness plagues the buried corners of your past? And when was or will be the defining moment where you realize what the saint's did, when you follow them, not down the path of man's perfection, or man's empty righteousness, but instead down the bloodied road of brokeness and true, sincere humility that only comes from God, and can only be recieved? Paul wasn't blowing smoke up everyone's hindquarters when he called himself "less than the least of the saints" (Eph 3:8), I believe he really meant it.

This is the point I wish to draw from all this. Why do you deride the Jews and assault their character. Is there anything that you see in their present that any of us cannot see in our own histories? If we have been extended such grace then why do we deny it to those who are our brothers, because we all have one earthly father, and we all have one heavenly Father, whether we choose to acknowledge him or not. God is coming back for his for Israel, he's going to chose them, just like he chose us, no matter what their history and no matter what their past, no matter what their present, he's going to extend his grace and recall his people to him again. It's like what God told Peter, "what God hath cleansed call not though common" (Acts 10:15), this was referring to the Gentiles before the gosple was brought to them, and we might do well to remember it, now that the Jews are in the position of the Gentiles, and God is preparing to reveal his grace and gospel to them, just like he did us.

As for me thinking that Christians can sin as much as they want you're mistaken, I simply think that we WILL sin, no matter how holy and perfect we try to be in our own power, it's not until we foster an intimate relationship with God and allow him to take us to a place of complete and true guileless brokeness that we gain the ability to rely on his grace and his strength, and that we can be justified, purified, and holified to the point that his holiness and his divine standards demand. We shouldn't strive to be perfect, we should strive to allow God to decrease us, humble us, and break us to such a level that we live by his grace and his grace alone, because it's only by his grace that we can be anything in the first place, and it's only by his grace that we can live a life of holiness, and become the saints that he's called all of us to become.

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.
C. S. Lewis

www.christiangaming.com

[This message has been edited by Ereon (edited August 16, 2006).]

mr.holyness

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WOW thats alot of writing^^

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http://www.freewebs.com/luke14/index.htm

Lazarus

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Ereon, thank you for that post. It was very encouraging to read.

How old are you, if I may ask?

Lazarus

NetCog

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Ereon - Amen.
Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Ereon, very well said.

Warsong -
There is a difference between a stereotype and statistics. Difference between fact and OPINION.

Like, my opinion is that you have a misunderstanding of scripture, and some agenda against the Jews. Oh well, hope you get over it.

I'll be one of the first to admit I'm not perfect. I can't ever hope to be on Earth with this body. Only when I recieve my heavenly body and live with Christ can I be perfect.

Seems like most people here get it. There are better ways to reach an understanding than by blasting someone.

BTW, Jews are a race and a religion. You can practice Judiasm, but you can never become a Jew. They won't accept you as a Jew, because they are all inter-related.

BTW again, George Bernard Shaw has some funny points.

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

Max

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Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Ergh, lets just ignore him.

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To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso




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Ereon====
Perfection escapes those who have already given up. You can not try when you have already made your decision that you canít. The apostles and saints were not as perfect as Christ but many have come close. People now donít even try and your comments state a giving up attitude. You quote C.S Lewis but you forgot the comment he said about being a realist since you and are not being a realist since you can not know when you donít try. If you and others want to quit and not look for the truth thatís not my problem or my fault. As the bible said to lead the horse to water but it has to decide to drink.
Many have lived holy lives and I donít see anyone that goes what society does can archive it since Christ said you can not follow God and mans laws, but many want to prove Christ wrong. Donít act you are better than a saint or that you can be since that you make you a failure, a quitter, and you insult their effort when you say it canít be done.

Your answers are here by C.S. Lewis.
http://www.christiancoders.com/cgi-bin/ubb-cgi/postdisplay.cgi?forum=Forum2&topic=000567

http://www.christiancoders.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000566.html

You are forgiven when you repent and to repent you have to deeply regret what they did and wish you never did it. The more people sin the more the soul gets deteriorated.

The Christian Jews are the one God chooses and not the ones that go against him and Jews are not Christians and only the very small exceptions.

Max====
Maybe you should take your own advice and ignore yourself and listen to others that know better.
Fact is fact so quit being politically correct to poke on stats.
You are being hypocritical to think you know more and that is not humble of you since you already decided. You are wrong and just as imperfect as the rest of us and we should ask people that know the information the best and have dealt with the issues first hand. Interpreting the bible yourself and ignoring the effort that so many have made to show you what is right is like ignoring that Christ died for you to go to heaven since they lead the way and you want to take your own rough.

1/2 the people in here object to what some have said and it seems I have to defend and explain both sides of the arguments. When are the other CCN members to stand up for what they believe? And you guys were not around to object at the others when it was time and you all vanished. People are afraid of a mob but want to be part of a mob it seems which is kind of hypocritical.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
The apostles and saints were not as perfect as Christ but many have come close.

Really? How does one approach perfection when one is inherently sinful?
At what point do my good works push me past a sinful christian desperately needing God's Grace as evidenced on the cross and into being a christian who is approaching Christ's perfection?


quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
You are forgiven when you repent and to repent you have to deeply regret what they did and wish you never did it. The more people sin the more the soul gets deteriorated.

I'm curious where it says I need to deeply regret what I did and wish I never did it.
I'm not talking about having pride that I did a sin, to boast in my choice of doing wrong. I'm talking about where does it say I need to do more than recognize I sinned against God and accept His forgiveness.

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
The Christian Jews are the one God chooses and not the ones that go against him and Jews are not Christians and only the very small exceptions.

Where are you seeing the line drawn of "Christian Jews"? Obviously the only Jews who will be with God in Heaven for eternity are those that saw (ahead in time or behind in the past) the work of Jesus Christ. I don't think anyone is saying that Jews who reject Christ as the Son of God will be saved. If that is the whole deal you've been trying to get across, I think most to all of us already understood that. Is there something more you were trying to point out?
If that is the case then our disagreement seems to lay where most of us (who have responded) still see that there is something special about the Jews as an in-total race as unique or different from the Greeks, Arabs, Native Americans, Germans, Tahitians, etc - special blessings still to be fulfilled as promised to Abraham and the succeeding Israelites.
-- While we are within the "Church Age" (reference to the Body or Bride of Christ) there is no difference (on some level anyways), but that doesn't mean within Time that there is now nor ever will again be an emphasis on Jews as the Chosen (as in the Old Testament).

quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
Interpreting the bible yourself and ignoring the effort that so many have made to show you what is right is like ignoring that Christ died for you to go to heaven since they lead the way and you want to take your own rough.

Who are the "so many"?

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 17, 2006).]

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Warsong, you are so misguided. Please be quiet.

Take Hanclinto's advice please, and don't do anything to harm the people younger in their faith.

BTW Warsong, I have accept Christ, and I attone for my sins. I'll be in Heaven, I know it, because of my relationship with God and Jesus. WIll you be there too, Warsong?

------------------
To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso




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Netcog====
I already explained most of your comments but you can not comprehend it and there are some misunderstandings.
If you donít know the answers then you have a lot of searching to do since you are like a pile of domino which when I help put one domino up the rest of the unstable blocks knock it down. If you want my opinion you need a lot of help which I am not your spiritual father to do so, so you should go ask your ďspiritual fatherĒ if you have one. Unless you are those that take the bible into their own hand and ignore the rest, but you can not live on bread alone as Christ said. Use more metaphors it might help you.

Max====
Donít act like you are perfect and know it all because then you are contradicting. We both sayís a view and you attack the messenger than the message, you donít support your view with any sort of proof but you expect to be right. If this was a court room I have outnumbered you wit facts and all you can do is get upset and attack the person since u can not attack the points made.

Be a Christian and be humble and admit you can be just as wrong as me, and to tell others not to read what I have to say makes it that you are better and that you know more but with a comment like that it shows that you know less.

No one is assured heaven and only Christ can make that decision so donít act like you are Christ, You have a long life to live and many obstacle that you will trip over. No one is assured not you, not me, not a child molesting priest, or a priest.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

CheeseStorm
Member

Posts: 521
From:
Registered: 11-28-2004
Max already said he isn't perfect. If you know you're right, why bother putting words into people's mouths?

This thread is for discussing a movie that you said you haven't seen (and don't want to). I like hijacking threads, too, but sometimes you have to pick your battles.

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
warsong

I asked you to see what you would answer.


You made a statement - "apostles and saints approached perfection"

I'm asking how good works enable perfection and at what point does one switch from being sinful man though perhaps saved, to approaching sainthood and the near perfection associated with it.
-- That might be an answer of about a paragraph, possibly less.

You made a statement - repentance requires deep regret and a wish to undo what was done.

I'm asking where do you get that information.
-- That would take a sentence...maybe two.

You made a statement - something about Christian Jews vs non-Christian Jews and something about exceptions.

The distinction of "Christian Jews" hasn't come up yet, though I didn't think you believed even Christian Jews weren't saved. I'm asking just to clarify. As I review the statement I do wonder what "exception" you might be referring to.
This section was less question to see your response as it was an interesting observation that on one point of confusing disagreement we might not have had quite as wide a divide as it first appeared. Any comment you made would have added to the pot of conversation, potentially clarifying your position and mine (and others) to it or vice versa.
-- This response might be a paragraph, maybe just a short sentence


You made a comment about many people showing me what is the "right" interpretation of the Bible.

I requested clarification on what you defined as the "who" of the "so many" who did this interpretation that I should accept. See I have a couple of options as to what I think your answer might be, but I'm giving you the opportunity to say it without being influenced by any comment I might make or perhaps confuse the question by stating my assumption.
-- This could be as small a response as a word or perhaps a sentence or two.

You appear to have a lot of information you'd like to disseminate. Why should I state what I *think* you are going to say when I can ask and let you state what you would actually say?

Ergo...the questions above.

I have reviewed the thread and I didn't see anything that would have actually been considered *answers* to those questions. You might have approached the answers, perhaps even touched them, but the closest I could see at this time would have been sort of round-about responses buried in comments to slightly (or significantly) different points. If I missed something you said that was a more direct response to the questions (before they were asked) simply quote your statement. If you don't mind that is?

Or if someone else shares warsong's views or understood his comments where I apparently missed...?

[This message has been edited by NetCog (edited August 19, 2006).]

Simon_Templar

Member

Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
Warsong, the condition of your heart is displayed both by your attitudes towards the jews, and towards your brothers here. As the bible says, out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.


On the question of sainthood and perfection. All who live by faith in Jesus Christ are saints. The people we refer to as saints.. such as St. Paul (for example) are simply the historical examples of true believers who we are sure were true beleivers.

It should be the goal of every christian to strive for perfection. The fact that people immediately assume that means "strive in your own strength" is simply evident of the deficiency of teaching in modern christianity. Ereon and netcog are right that we do not have what it takes to be anything other than sinful failures... but it is God who works in us. He is bringing us on towards perfection.
However, the fact that God is doing the work, does not mean that you are not involved in the process. Christians today seem to think this means they just sit back and sip their tea occasionally checking to see if they are perfected yet. Your will and your mind are what are being reformed and renewed to perfection, thus your will and your mind must necessarily be involved in the process. Your involvement is to surrender. All you have to do is submit your own will and your own desires to God.
I say "all you have to do" but that is very hard to do for us, and it is a constant ongoing process.

The grace of God always calls you onward towards perfection.

------------------
-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Warsong -

Hehe, reading your post was kinda funny.
1. We are not in a court room.
2. MAN's laws DON'T apply to GOD.
3. Faith is about believing, not having rock solid proof.
4. I've never acted like I'm perfect.
5. What points do I need to make? I've stated my beliefs and what Christianity believes.... OK, you've lost me Warsong.
6. Show that I know less? OK, I probly do. About some things, not about God it seems though, because you are misguided.
7. I am humble, I admit I'm not perfect. Guess what!!! I'm a SINNER!! Yup, I sin probly every day. BUT ----- God will forgive me and wipe my slate clean. As long as I've asked for Jesus to be my savior, and be in my heart, then I'm going to Heaven.

8. HAHAHAHA, your last paragraph really got to me. - Not to be snide, or anything, but if I died now... I would be in Heaven. I've asked for Christ to be my savior, so I've saved. (Savior = saved, cool, eh?)

9. You may be right, I hope I'm not gonna change my ways later in life, that would suck a great deal, cus then I might go to Hell. But as for me and MY house, We will serve the Lord.

I'm a Christian, God's GRACE has saved me.
I know it's a personal question, Warsong, but do you believe? Will I see you in Heaven? I hope so, I'd hate to not be able to see you up there. I would never wish Hell upon anyone, so I hope you are saved.

Max out--- For now

------------------
To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso

missle

Junior Member

Posts: 1
From: hutchins,tx,us
Registered: 08-19-2006
The passion is a good movie but some of it has been made up.Butilike the point of view that jesus hadwhen the roman soilders were hitting him when he saw the devil, that was true.



Posts:
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Registered:
I find the movie to be a Ĺ truth which Ĺ truths are closer to lies than truth. I donít count how Mel interprets the movie in what he puts in that the bible doesnít indicate but I do object to the things he puts in which the bible says it didnít happen and takes out which the bible says it did and are important which people miss the point and like it for the wrong reasons.

Cheese====
I try to keep on topic but I am replying. I know and saw enough of the movie not like it. Do I have to taste mud to know that I wonít like it to know the answer, since I have enough evidence to know that itís not something to eat?

Netcog=====
Does the bible have to spell everything out for you? The bible doesnít say that you have to breath in and out and if you donít itís a sin but it is if you read between the lines since u you intentionally donít breath you kill yourself and so that is a sin. All your questions are simple indirect questions that you can answer yourself and you seem to want to play games or you donít understand which as I said you need a lot of work since I have already answered your questions and you ask again in different manners. You ask questions, I answer and you donít listen so what do you want me to tell you when you will ignore? As I said before you need a spiritual father to help you, since there is a lot you donít understand. I give you broad answer to all your questions since you need to understand things broadly since when one point is explained you have your other backup questions which can be answered the same way. But yes we have some misunderstandings at times. The best way to learn and appreciate something is if a person gains it himself that being given to him. Itís like you would respect $1000 if you worked for it than it someone gave it to you, and that goes with other things. I point the way you attack it and donít want to agree with the facts so what else do you want?

But if you want a direct answer again fine, about the saints I explained it which obviously you want it to be explained in different ways but I will let someone else answer that since I already said it. As for the other point about repentance well ask yourself if someone says they are sorry for doing bad to you and then they keep doing ti every day intentionally and enjoy it are they sorry? Only someone blind can not see that they do not regret their actions which they do it again. If someone robs you and they say they are sorry and do it again and again, can you trust them they will not do it again or will you take action to prevent it since you know they donít really mean it.

Here is something
James 2:24
24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
(or) 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
I hope you donít twist the meaning.

Simon=======
Stop assuming, I am just stating the facts in what are presented.
You have learned a lot over the year but you still have a lot to learn just like me. Donít let what you know blind you that you still know nothing compared to what is out.

As I told Netcog which the bible has many quotes similar to this
James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Or another part that says ďfaithĒ alone is Nothing without ACTION! Since peoples faith is shown by their actions and not by their words. People talk the talk but most donít walk the walk.

I generally agree with what you have said and I generally agree with Ereon but I am clarifying that people should not think that just saying they are Christian will be enough and that people can be good if the break the barrier and not act like most people act in society.

Max========
I agree with most of your points, do you think we have a misunderstanding? Maybe but donít think you know God since there is a lot to learn.
Here is a quote for you ďSixty years ago I knew everything; now I know nothing; education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." Maybe one say you will say that too.

Sure it will be good if everyone went to heaven but not everyone will is the honest truth and not wishing anyone bad but its realistic. As the told Simon and Netcog ďJames 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.Ē and the other explanations about it.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Warsong you've got the cart SEVERELY before the horse. You're telling others not to twist a verse but you're going and wringing the everlovin' snot out of this one. Head back to your Bible and research more on that one, you've takin a small snapshot of what you wish to present but there is much more to the picture then you've either taken a look at or wish to show.

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.
C. S. Lewis

www.christiangaming.com




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From:
Registered:
Don't you have a comment about the movie? Or a repy about the movie?

Yes when a train gets derailed it sometiems gets twisted. lol You "Opinion" is noted.


------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
*shrug* Call it an opinion if you wish, but there is much in James, indeed, in the same chapter of James that draws a very different picture. God's word needs no interpreter, it will interpret itself if you're willing to study and listen to it as the living Word of God. This thing isn't a dead collection of pages that you study like a text book, it's a multi-dimensional writing, full of things that you won't even notice until your mind and spirit are prepared for it. It's full of little details and tie-ins all over the place that add it the richness and beauty of its literary and spiritual texture. If you read your Bible right you're not just studying it, you're experiencing it, allowing God to speak to you through the pages and reveal himself and his wisdom and understanding to you as you do so. Anyhoo, there's alot to the picture that the one verse you're presenting, but I think that it will be more enjoyable for you if you find it on your own.

P.S. I haven't seen the entire movie, only the first few scenes or so, my parent's bought it but we've never watched it. I personally don't really want to because I don't handle blood well.

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Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.
C. S. Lewis

www.christiangaming.com

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
I know God.

Plain and simple, who are you to say I don't?

------------------
To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso




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Registered:
Yes the blood was over done in the movie. It is silly to say that someone can get beaten that much and loose so much blood to be able to walk at all. Has any experienced loosing so much blood to relate?

ereon
ďIn 1 Chron 13:9 and 10 we see that when people decide on their own to assume tasks and responsibilities God not only He does not give His blessing but permits their destruction. ď

ďAnd if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city..." (Rv 22: 18,19)


Max
Thatís not humble or logical. :| Maybe you mean that you have faith and do the best you can like many but no one knows God well. You can not know how a insect think and God is more complex and you think you know God?
Everyone thinks they know God and many go bad under Gods name. No one knows God or has enough faith 100% to be able to walk on water now.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world

NetCog

Member

Posts: 149
From:
Registered: 06-15-2006
quote:
Originally posted by warsong:
...but no one knows God well. You can not know how a insect think and God is more complex and you think you know God?

Interesting.

Ereon

Member

Posts: 1018
From: Ohio, United States
Registered: 04-12-2005
Then, Warsong, why are you saying which people are going and not going to get into Heaven, why are you judging other people's relationships with God at all? To put it in the words of Paul, we are not worthy or capable of accurately judge ourselves, how then shall we judge others? Aren't you assuming the responsibility and task of being God's voice, condemning and praising others in the name of God, deciding who shall and shall not get into Heaven? You quote scripture about taking from Revelation's prophecies, but what other words of God's word are any more important than those? The truth lies not in the indivual pieces of the Word, but it's the entirety, just like the most dangerous lies are born, not nessecessarily from the things that are added, but more so from the things that are ommited. Take a deeper look, don't try to block out or ignore the things that don't mix with your theology or the point you're trying to make, embrace them, compare them and fit them together with other pieces of the whole, and discover the entire truth, not just the pieces that are conveinent or fit a theology or idea.

------------------

Of course God knew what would happen if they used their freedom the wrong way: apparently He thought it worth the risk.
C.S. Lewis

Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another: What! You too? I thought I was the only one.
C. S. Lewis

www.christiangaming.com

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Warsong, did I say I know everything about God? Nope, silly Warsong!!

I said I know him. I know my friends, but I don't know EVERYTHING about them. So shut up and stop dissing people, you concieting egoist. I know my God, and have a relationship with him, so back off.

------------------
To err is human--and to blame it on a computer is even more so. - Robert Orben

Blind belief is dangerous. - Kenyan Proverb

Computers are useless. They can only give you answers. - Pablo Picasso




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From:
Registered:
Ereon
Again a misunderstanding and assuming again!
I am not saying who and who isnít going to heaven, all I am saying is that God decides not us. People should be humble and not assume that they are good enough, and even the saints didnít feel they were worthy enough. Even you just quoted Paul to say that people are not worth to judge themselves which I pointed that out to Max, so if you complain about me then you should also complain about yourself since you are saying the same thing.

Max
I am not dissing you, I am only commenting.
Your comments do not have a point. What is the point of saying you know God when everyone says they know God. Read what Ereon and I had to say which maybe you understood him better in that people are worthy enough to judge themselves.

Ok this post is over since no one is commenting on the movie.

------------------
"The conversion of a savage to Christianity is the conversion of Christianity to savagery." George Bernard Shaw (Hence christian sects)"Hell is paved with good intentions, not with bad ones"
"Matthew 7 21. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven;... depart from me, ye that work iniquity."
Orthodoxy=best kept secret in the US. 2nd largest Christian communion in the world