I am in United Arab Emirates right now. Here the internet is 99% filtered of porn etc, which is a excellent blessing, especially if u have children at home.Living together / having sex without marriage will end up in jail. Though they call it Islamic.. i really appretate this.. i mean the govt. making sure all people live un-perverted lifes.

Should not we christians be ashamed of this?. Where in a country where we have big christian lobby's etc (US, UK), the people can live life wayward. All in the name of FREEDOM.

Is it not time the govt. made sure(atleast try to) we live good christian life???

I appretiate your comments and ideas on this.

Sujith Mathew

i personally think pronography should be banned in the west, but its hard to know where to draw the line between punishable crimes enforced by the state, and things that people will be only accountible to God for.

I know that outlawing fornication does not change the heart of an adultery with his mind and eyes.

the way of the world, (and so often religion, even christianity in the human sense) is from the outside in, trying to force or change situations, to create change from the outside in - the jews expected a messiah this way, to take control in the temporal realm, when the kingdom of God was quite oppisite starting at the heart, and coming out from there, effecting the temproral.

I think the church needs to have high standards regarding sexual purity and other such things, but really we can't effect the larger community in these issues, but laws, or fear of consequences, and even if we can, we would get other problems (i.e rape is so huge in the muslim world, but victims suffer silently because they are often blamed) - the issue is the heart of men is not changed. Sure the church needs to stand up and proclaim the wrongs of all manner of sexual sin, whether it being fornication, adultery, homosexuality, mastubation, or pornography, but the way we should lead is by example, but being lights of purity, purifed by Christ.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Under Shari'a law, innocent people (such as women who were actually victims) are punished for the crimes of others when the system makes defense difficult for them.

Islamic countries evidently have a lot of double standards going on, with piety at the front door and something bad going on in the back room, because I know that there are prostitutes and prostitute slave trafficking.

Muslim men can marry four women if they can afford it--not considered moral by Christians. They can also have slave concubines if they follow the Islamic teaching, and of course that's incredibly immoral. And they expect further women in paradise.

So, Islam doesn't encourage men to be monogamist and in fact can encourage immoral attitudes.

Violence and disrespect toward women is a problem, and victims have nowhere to turn. I think there are many unhappy homes, too.

It's my feeling that the superficial emphasis on morality in some areas covers up a lot of bad stuff and double standards underneath.

Having said that, I do think Christians should influence their countries more and set a better example for the world and protect their people more from sin. That's what they did in earlier decades, but then they let the other people get the upper hand.

Let's do more to influence our societies and be the SALT of the world--never forget that we should be SALT and in the food, not in the shaker in the cabinet, but at the same time don't be fooled by mandated superficial good works, selectively enforced, when evil abounds under the surface.

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Let's do more to influence our societies and be the SALT of the world--never forget that we should be SALT and in the food, not in the shaker in the cabinet

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Originally posted by AmazingJas:
Here in Australia, we are getting closer to having mandatory filtering at the ISP's which will be great when it happens. I think the politicians are just hesitating because they won't be able to go to www.sexylubber.com any more.

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please post your photo into the CCN gallery !

The idea of our democracy is that the people get what they deserve. If they are moral and responsible, than they get a good government, if not, then they are screwed.

to be honest, even tho I hate porn, I'm not sure it should be illegal. maybe, maybe not. if it is illegal and enforced, it could be a serious encroachment on freedoms, not freedom to watch porn, but freedom of speech. it's a dangerous road. too much power to the government leads to a corrupt government. which is not cool. but again, I hate porn, so I stand undecided currently.
wouldn't it be all better if everybody was good?

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Umm... im not to sure on this topic, as i think my beliefs may conflict with others.

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

How does this apply to people who break the law and are not caught?

Laws do not make anyone good; they specifically identify those who are bad - according to the law's description of what is bad. There can be laws that are bad laws - that is, laws that prohibit people from doing something morally good. Do these laws then make people bad if they disobey them?

If the institution of law was ordained by God (check your scripture carefully on the first law given to man and who gave it), then does that mean that by disobeying the law - whether the law is morally good or morally bad - we are then disobeying God?

Can a person obey an immoral law and also obey God?
Can a law be unjust, not necessarily immoral?
What does it mean if the law is unjust and/or immoral?
Does God want us to obey a law that opposes something God expects us to do?

This is a good discussion

In fact, I think we've stumbled onto one of the most crucial issues for Christians these days.

I doubt that Christians a few decades ago would be having the same argument over whether it would be good to enforce righteous laws in the land.

In fact, in Eddie Murphy's vampire (or werewolf?) movie he used almost the same argument in his "evil is good, good is evil" sermon. For comedy! But people are coming to the same conclusion seriously.

Jesus said, "Suffer us not to be led into temptation, but deliver us from evil."

I think the hesitation of Christians to impress their morality and laws onto the society plays right into the hands of those who represent anti-Christian views. Isn't that exactly fitting into what they're teaching us--don't judge? don't push your morals onto others? there's no absolute truth? tolerance (meaning not true tolerance but acceptance) is most important?

At the same time, those same people are never ceasing from shaping society to their anti-Christian, degraded image. Little tolerance for Christianity. No hesitation to shape society and force conformity, including conformity for their opponents. Enthusiastically pursuing change in the courtroom, the classroom, and the living room (TV room). All this, while their opponents in shaping society are debating among themselves whether it's proper for them to indeed try to shape society outside of believers.

And I think they've been successful in their efforts. Christians may have adapted and altered the reasoning for it a bit, but they are accepting the idea and leaving the guidance of society (outside church and witnessing) in the hands of the confused and the downright evil and perverted. It's always been a battle--but it threatens to become a one-sided battle.

This is what I meant when I mentioned being the SALT of the world, and not keeping ourselves in the cabinet. (To borrow a simile from D. James Kennedy.) We should influence society. Is that limited to just witnessing and church, or should we permeate further?

Sure, it's good when people can do evil and don't, but there's no reason to add to it. For every freedom added to the sinner, there is often freedom taken away from victims of that sin. (Even millions of victims.) By pressing for laws against evil, we exercise our freedom. Those who follow equally have freedom to support good laws or not. Good laws don't take away their freedom to choose good over evil--the odds are too much on evil in society. For every crime outlawed, there are still criminals--many of them. Taking away blame, punishment, and deterrence is not kind, it's unfair!

I just wanted to point out that Islamic nations have much sin and very deep evils going on--they are not pure as advertised although of course there are good people there--but that doesn't mean I'm against having laws against evil. On the contrary!

Curry

anyways, what I said was discouraging making laws about morality, but, it's not the core issue. of course, stay away from temptation and stuff. don't be stupid. and yes, the government is designed for adminstering justice and upholding morality. what I said was more of to open minds then to make a point.

and about tolerance... those tolerance advocates, they can't stop push their ideals on everyone, while screaming out about tolerating people differenet from you and not talking about your beliefs. I have every frigg'n right to pray and say what ever I want to whenever and wherever I want to. and to add to it, the constitution says that congress can't pass a law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. they making it illegal to have the ten commandments in court buildings and praying in school(along the lines, they're working on making it more difficult) and such... sry, I get heated over these issues.

and no, to the first point made, I would say that islamic countries are not better than america. I would actually go to say the America is the best country out there. being founded on christian principles and by christian people, it raised to greatness. sadly, whatever problems we have here aren't even considered problems in europe, it's just accepted. really sad. (sry all your european dudes, no hard feelings).
but, about muslim countries.... I will admit that I'm not a expert on them, and I've never been to one. Christians are persecuted, women are raped, children are tortured, people cheered when the world trade centers were destroyed, people are encouraged to blow themselves and others up for "jihad."
I thank God that he gave me the privilage to live in the United States of America. (and they'res no hate here toward any country)

ps... sry, to big of a post... can't stop talking...

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

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being founded on christian principles and by christian people, it raised to greatness.

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_Perhaps_ true. This can be viewed from both sides, so I wont argue. However, were not many European states formed from or in "Christian" values and principles, or have a long history in the same? England is still officially a "christian" nation. As are many in Europe. Look at the last 2000 years of European history. Christianity has had an _extremly_ large influence. However, because of the sinful natural of man and therefore the decay of society, most European nations now are extremely secular. As are many parts of America. The United States has a much shorter history, and so has had less time to decay.

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sadly, whatever problems we have here aren't even considered problems in europe, it's just accepted. really sad. (sry all your european dudes, no hard feelings).

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No hard feelings at all. However, I would disagree here. Although many of the issues Americans see as problems are not percieved as problems here, likewise the reverse is also true. For instance, The Patriot Act, Guatalamo Bay, and all related issues, non-labeling or controlling of GM foods, etc.

On issues of sexual morality, drugs, etc, some parts/most of Europe may be more "lax" than the USA. I seriously doubt, however if that is true for the whole the USoA. Would you say that christian morality is maintained or considered correct in Hollywood? Las Vegas? Do American Movies portray Christian Ethics as being Correct, and sex outside of marrage, homosexuality, etc as being wrong?

Of course, some do! But nothing like all, or most, or even a significant percent of them.

America is soo vast, and has soooo many different places and subcultures that to try and define her as having a single position or single understanding of an issue is absurd. Likewise Europe. Europe is a complete hotpot of different views and ways of thinking, that to say "Europe just accepts (these problems)" is silly as well.

Of course Europe has problems! Of course it is degrading away from Traditional Christian Morality(tm). Isn't that expected? Arent' we even told that this will happen in the Bible? (Not in so many words, perhaps).

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but, about muslim countries.... I will admit that I'm not a expert on them, and I've never been to one. Christians are persecuted, women are raped, children are tortured, people cheered when the world trade centers were destroyed, people are encouraged to blow themselves and others up for "jihad."

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Are Christians not persecuted in America and Europe? Perhaps not in physical, violent ways, but isn't it illegal to pray in schools or public places? Don't many kids in schools get beaten up because of their beliefs (christian or otherwise)? Remember all of those problems (in the USA and in Europe) with Sikhs getting abused (and in one incerdent killed) becuase people believed them "Terrorists" or "The same as Bin Ladin"?

Do women not ever get raped in the USA?

http://www.speakout.org.za/events/stats/stats_Usa.html

Is torture never "allowed" by the USA?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/tv/stars_stripes_interview.shtml

Aren't there extremists and mobs and madmen in all parts of the world?

To judge another people by newsreports is very unwise, and ignorant. My father visited Egypt a few months after Sept. 11, and didn't get beaten up, attacked, shouted at, or any of that. In fact, many people walked up to him, shook his hand and said how upset about it they were. Just because the media madly publicised the idiots and the extremists doesn't mean all are like that.

The impression we get (over here) of America is something like this:
"Gambling, rape, violent crime, sex, drugs, southern extremest preachers shoutin' hell-fire and brimstone, racism, mad dictator politicians, under-the-carpet totalitarianism, and weird new-age types." That, of course, is absurd. There are places in the States where some of these are true, and many may be distorted. However, They all have some truth in them, and put like this, it seems pretty damning. I've lived in the states though, and I know its not all like that everywhere, or even most places. Most of the USA is a pretty decent place to live. It has problems, just like everywhere.

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I thank God that he gave me the privilage to live in the United States of America.

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Great. It is good to thank God for all things. Just beware of pride and ignorance, which Satan often trys to sneak in along with thankfulness.

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(and they'res no hate here toward any country)

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1548524.stm

In short, there are problems in all parts of the world. Do not make assumptions. Do not judge others, or consider other countries "worse" than any other.

Getting back to the topic again though... It is our duty, (as Christians) to promote what we belive, and to stand up against Sin whenever, and where-ever God calls us to. If God calls us into politics, then we should try and show christian morals there, and, if it is His will, then to impliment laws which reflect that.

I, for one, would love to see an internet with no pornography. If, however, the alternative to free speech, and so freedom of some to put pornography on the net, is that the internet becomes censored, and you only have "free speech" if you agree with the government, then I would vote for an uncensored internet.

Otherwise, where will it stop? "Oh gosh, X, Y and Z said something not-nice about the Mormon church on Christian Coders!!!" and suddenly CCN might get closed. Or censored. Imagine that.

Oh well. I've probably gone completely over the top again.

Hope I've said something interesting, at any rate.

Sorry if I've been rude,

Dan "I'm probably wrong anyway" MadProf

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7 days without prayer makes one weak.

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madprof
However, were not many European states formed from or in "Christian" values and principles, or have a long history in the same?

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likewise the reverse is also true. For instance, The Patriot Act...

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and yes, I probably was wrong with stereotyping the whole of europe. probably thinking the entire europe as sweden or something.
and I probably should have researched more before I made claims like I did.

I also did hear once that the american liberal would be considered sort of conservative in Europe, and that their political neutral was along the lines of Marx and such.

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but isn't it illegal to pray in schools or public places?

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Do women not ever get raped in the USA?

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Remember all of those problems (in the USA and in Europe) with Sikhs getting abused (and in one incerdent killed) becuase people believed them "Terrorists" or "The same as Bin Ladin"?

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there will always be people to do the craziest things.
and, I will retract some of what I said. as you pointed out, you can't really stereotype a nation.
In America, I would say there are forces tugging at it, to the left and to the right, to immorality and to moral, to socialism and to freedom.
to elaborate on what I said earlier, America is more than just a population, I believe it to be a set of principles and ideals. Of which, these principles and ideals are christian and biblical. also, many people are trying to tear away from these, to change America in to something different. that's how I view it.

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I, for one, would love to see an internet with no pornography. If, however, the alternative to free speech, and so freedom of some to put pornography on the net, is that the internet becomes censored, and you only have "free speech" if you agree with the government, then I would vote for an uncensored internet.

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Very similar to what many other people have said...

First of all, if you start legislating along "moral" or "religious" lines, where do you stop? Do we outlaw shaving because the muslims don't like it? Outlaw eating beef because the (some anyway) Hindus and Buddists are against it, or porc because of the Jews?

Also, there's a history of "allowing" something that's still sinful -- even in Israel. Moses allowed Hebrews to divorce their wives...although Jesus later said that this was a sin, and He had only allowed it because their hearts were hard.

Anyway, a few things to think about.
-- Keith

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First of all, if you start legislating along "moral" or "religious" lines, where do you stop?

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I hope somewhere . . .

Religious issues can probably stay out of legistating completely, except for the fact that freedom of religion should be upheld.

Moral issues are harder - stuff like murder and rape should obviously be illegal, but contreversy comes on some of the less obvious issues . Different people have different ideas about morality.

Moses was only human like the rest of us . . . remember, Christians are supposed to get their morals from God, not Moses. Many of the famous figures in the Bible got caught in sin.

I would vote to keep the Internet uncensored. I would also remind people that although they have the right to speak, I also have the right to refuse to listen to that speech (as Rush Limbaugh said once, I believe). I avoid their sites, and have installed a filtering program on my end .

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There are only 10 types of people - those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Planning, writing GFX basecode.

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Originally posted by CobraA1:

Religious issues can probably stay out of legistating completely

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Sorry. I disagree. A true christian nation should enforce & uphold christian principles and values.

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Originally posted by sujithjm:
Sorry. I disagree. A true christian nation should enforce & uphold christian principles and values.

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In my experience, bible reading sessions, etc.. I've come to realize that morality depends on motives. if its based on laws and rituals, there are always loopholes, which cannot exist. for example, you can get away with hating and killing somebody if you don't actually commit the murder. however, you're still guilty in God's eyes because of your motives. Jesus said that if you hate a man, you already commited murder in your heart.
also, laws were made for those who are wicked(basically... everybody), not the righteous. If we loved everybody purely, we wouldn't need laws. heck, were they're laws in Eden(besides "don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil). You cannot escape motives.
I'm not saying laws are worthless.. they're very necessary, but there is a much deeper side to them. it's not all that they appear.
and as Papillon said, where does it stop? we have to be careful how much power is given to the government. Power corrupts, and the government is not exempt from that. Our government is based on decentralized power.
Some morality should be upheld by law. the kind that would harm other people, such as Murder, Rape and Theft. however, some, are too dangerous to uphold. the government is an institution of people, and people are fallen.

(and if it appears we're ganging up on you, I'm sorry.)

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the problem with that is no earthly country can be 'a true christian nation'. the true christian nation is the kingdom of God, the world body of believers in Jesus Christ, its not a democracy but a kingdom, where Jesus rules on the throne of our hearts, and the Holy spirit abides in his temple - US. even a country with say 80 % true christians (and who can tell that sort of statistic but God, we can only measure it by a census, and i know many old people who put their religion down as christian, because they associate being american is being christian, despite that they don't understand the gospel, haven't recieved Christ, don't go to church or anything even religious let alone spiritual)
but even an 80% country isn't a christian country, however the more true christians you have mean there is more light, and more salt giving good flavour, darkness can't hide as well with that much light, and the salt flavour of the christians rubs off on the culture , legal system and government.

i firmly believe that the social decay in society reflects much on the health of the 'church' in general, to have a country with say sexual morals, starts with christians in the church taking purity seriously, puring immorality, and living for Christ 100%. the sexual perversions out there reflect the fact that sexual immoarility is rampant in the church. making certian laws aint going to do anything but more sin more into secret, get to the root and get the church healhty, and fufilling the great commandment and being light and salt to this generation will do a million times more good than trying to make all sorts of laws to make people not behave bad.

sure there are places for laws though, and a place for christians being involved in influencing those laws, but one has to be very prayerful and careful about it.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz