General Discussions

Terri Schiavo – Curry

Curry
Member

Posts: 134
From: USA
Registered: 11-21-2002
Guys, have you heard about this?

http://wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35083
http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2003/10/14/183930.shtml

This young woman collapsed years ago with a heart attack and suffered brain damage. Her husband and parents have been fighting in court--the husband (who now lives with another woman) claims she's vegetative and wants to end her life by removing her feeding tube. For years, he has also tried to block her from getting any kind of therapy to recover.

The parents and some of the nurses etc. claim that she is responsive. She only requires feeding tube; she breathes etc. by herself. They put some videos up on a website so you can see and judge for yourself: her face lights up, she smiles, and makes sounds when her family comes in and talks to her. I watched the videos and I was floored; this woman is conscious. (You could call this condition many things, but vegetative and totally unaware is simple out of the question.) The family has pointed to examples of other people with similar conditions who had therapy and made great recoveries.

Please take a look at the site and the videos and articles, and take some action such as signing the petition, writing e-mail, or (probably the only really useful action now since the removal of the feeding tube is already scheduled for today) use the telephone to call some of the people who could make a difference. Here's the website:

http://www.terrisfight.org/

Some of the nurses testify they heard the husband say things like "when will the --- die?" and acted pleased whenever her condition got worse. He has been using a medical settlement which was awarded to his wife for the purpose of helping her medically, for legal funds to support her death instead. (And his lawyer "representing" Terri is a right-to-die advocate.) The husband stands to gain the rest of the money when she dies. The medical report noted signs of trauma that could possibly suggest her husband had done something like attack and strangle her. It's also reported that he wants her to be cremated. This looks like another possible motive, but regardless of whether he is trying to hide past crimes, he is committing one now, along with the "justice" system.

Even if my poorly written review doesn't turn you on to the case, please look past my way of expressing it and click and read about it from others. This is a hot issue. Many columnists and conservative and Christian sites are writing about the case and what it means for all of us. Jeb Bush has appealed to the court (good) but now refuses to go further than that to use other legitimate means to help (too bad). Activists are outside the hospice protesting for her rights.

Please try calling to show your support for Terri Schiavo. Here are some ideas:

Governor Jeb Bush
850-488-7146
JEB.BUSH@MYFLORIDA.COM
 
Attorney General Charlie Crist
850-414-3990
 
State Attorney Bernie McCabe
727-464-6221

Florida Dept. of Children and Families
(813) 558-5580 ( This is the Adult Services division -- protects vulnerable adults -- for her county)
dcf-osc@dcf.state.fl.us

The hospice where she is kept:
The Hospice of the Florida Suncoast
(727) 586-4432

Thanks,

Curry

Curry
Member

Posts: 134
From: USA
Registered: 11-21-2002
BTW, this is the basic gist of what I'm saying when I call and it seems to work pretty well so far:

"I'm calling to express my support for Terri Schiavo. Please (help her / lend her your support / defend her rights / whatever). This is (name) from (city, state). Thank you."

The DCF department representative said they weren't "really" involved (actually they have been according to what I read) but I just said "I wish you were involved" and it was politely received.

Curry

ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
that guy's a frigg'n murderer... he wants to kill his own wife!
the guy is currently living with another woman... you see where he's coming from, huh.
he's screwed... he needs major help. oh, and he needs to lose also.

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Curry
Member

Posts: 134
From: USA
Registered: 11-21-2002
Here is one more, the number for the judge in charge of this case who made the decision to help the husband kill Schiavo:

George W. Greer
Judge, 6th Judicial Circuit
315 Court Street, Room 484
Clearwater, FL 33756
727-464-3933

The chief judge in that court is David Demers
727-582-7882

Curry

nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
This thread was started over one year ago, and Terri Schiavo is still alive. But Terri is close to losing her fight; she has already lost the legal battle to keep her constitutional rights. I know not all of us can be present wherever there are injustices in this world, but one thing we can do is pray for those who need help beyond our means and abilities.
Please take time, especially in these critical days for Terri, to lift her up in prayer - do so as often as you can.
ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
I thought congress and the president moved to save her life

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Soterion Studios

nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
yes, that is true. but somehow, through various court proceedings in the last week or so, that has been overturned. further appeals to the courts to have the feeding tube allowed have been denied.
the feeding tube, which is not permanent - just used for normal meals, was removed this past friday. so she has had nothing in the way of physical nourishment for 5 days. the website www.terrisfight.net has a bunch of information on what is going on. they do updates quite frequently - especially in the last few days with all that has happened, but it seems the news media is quicker to get one side of the story told.
i have a hard time comprehending how these different laws to help her have been overturned so easily by the different courts. i am uncomfortable knowing the US Supreme Court has refused to hear the case once already, and may do so again (if it comes to that).
i guess there is such a thing as a perfect crime after all - it just isn't as hush-hush as most people think.
ArchAngel

Member

Posts: 3450
From: SV, CA, USA
Registered: 01-29-2002
man... that sucks.

lately the courts have been overstepping there power, becoming vigilantes for their own brand of justice. one mistake by the founding fathers was giving to much power to the courts.

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Soterion Studios

GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
While you wouldn't realize it due to the sloppy TV news reporting, the legal "right" that is being enforced here by the removal of the feeding tube is Terri's right to choose her own medical care, including the right to refuse care and the right to die, which is supposedly included in Florida's medical privacy provisions in the Florida Constitution (I disagree). The issue is NOT the enforcement of Michael Schiavo's rights as guardian. As guardian he can direct her care but CANNOT decide to remove the feeding tube and end her life. The court in Florida decided that Terri would WANT to die in this circumstance (or more precisely not be kept alive artificially). Although many of the Terri's Fight type folks assume that "saving" Terri is relying on Terri's rights, that is actually 180 degrees wrong, legally. Under the Florida law and court decisions, Terri's rights in this case are to be allowed to refuse medical care and die naturally. The feeding tube removal order is an order to enforce Terri's "legal rights". If anything that makes this legal precedent even worse.

I repeat for clarity: according to the law the legal guardian, Mr. Schiavo, does not have the ability to kill his wife. In legal terms Terri must give confirmation which is supposedly provided by Mr. Schiavo testifying that Terri would want to die in a situation like this. It's a fine distinction but it must be understood in order to fully comprehend the legal battle.

The problem is that all of the medical details in relation to Terri's specific condition are clouded over by the partisan hacks clammering for their view. It's possible that her condition is terminal and there is no hope of recovery. It's also possible that Terri could one day look up and ask, "Huh? Where am I? What happened?". Either way, starving her to death is a brutal option (btw, a morphine overdose is specifically not allowed by the law). I can sort of comprehend Mr. Schiavo's position. To him Terri is "dead" and all that is left is a brainless corpse automatically twitching according to biological functions. So in effect he is not "killing" her. Only God knows...

In any case, I'm against killing Terri precisely because it would set a legal precedent that could set the country on a path we don't want to go. After all, why is she being killed? Because she can't take care of herself and is "useless"? Where is this arbitrary line where being "useless" is defined? The mentally ill and the old cannot take care of themselves to a certain degree; should they die? Proponents for Terri's death might scream that I'm using "scare tactics". It's only scary because it's happened in the past.

In any case, I would be pretty, um, "terrified" if a panel of judges--in a case where no law has been broken that is deserving of the death penalty--had the power to actually determine that I would WANT to die...in ANY circumstance. That is the most arrogant and gross usurping of rights that I could actually think of.

Oh, and while President Bush's and Congress's intentions were good they may have also set another very bad legal precedent. The Constitution does not endow them with the power to intervene in this instance. In fact, very the opposite. The US Constitution specifically states (where exactly, I don't remember) that the Federal branch cannot intervene for an individual. Only the state legislature has the ability to determine the correction action. And if you go by the FL Constitution alone...

SECTION 2. Basic rights.--All natural persons, female and male alike, are equal before the law and have inalienable rights, among which are the right to enjoy and defend life and liberty….No person shall be deprived of any right because of race, religion, national origin, or physical disability.

The problem is that the FL Constitution doesn't explicitly state anyting in regards to the "right to die". Since a decision is needed the FL legislative branch should then design a law in relation to this subject. Instead, a judge, who should just be interpreting EXISTING law, is defining the law in practice through case law. The screwy part is that people are claiming Jeb Bush and the FL Legislative branch is overstepping their boundaries by trying to stop the judges from overstepping their boundaries!

To continue, Governor Bush and Florida’s Legislature have done nothing more than err on the side of life as suggested is the proper course of action by the SCOTUS. Baird, on the other hand, is willing to end Terri’s life without her knowing or willing consent.

It is also interesting to note that Baird, in his decision, dwells upon the “separation-of powers” doctrine to claim Terri’s Law is unconstitutional, because it is a “…delegation of legislative power to the governor.” But Baird conveniently forgets the separation of power doctrine also applies to the assigned duties of judge and jury, and Judge Greer improperly acted as judge and jury in a case in which a person’s constitutionally protected right to life was at issue, and permitted Terri to be deprived of the protection of a jury in the evaluation of the flimsy evidence used by the court to declare she wants to die.

The reality is, Baird is quite willing to ignore the separation of powers doctrine when it suites his personal whims and fancies and when it comes to the assigned duties of judge and jury in evaluating evidence alleging what Terri’s wishes are. And just what are the assigned duties of judge and jury as stated by the SCOTUS?

“The trial was thus conducted upon the theory that it was the duty of the court to expound the law, and that of the jury to apply the law as thus declared to the facts as ascertained by them. In this separation of the functions of court and jury is found the chief value, as well as safety, of the jury system. Those functions cannot be confounded or disregarded without endangering the stability of public justice, as well as the security of private and personal rights.”

See: Sparf v. United States, 156 U.S. 51, 106, (1895)

Also see Justice Byron White in in Taylor v. Louisiana, 419 US 522 , 530 (1975)

"The purpose of a jury is to guard against the exercise of arbitrary power -- to make available the commonsense judgment of the community as a hedge against the over-zealous or mistaken prosecutor and in preference to the professional or perhaps overconditioned or biased response of a judge."

Terri’s right to the protection of a jury was waived without her knowing and willing consent. The judges are also assuming the given powers of the jury in manner that should not be allowed.

The problem, as you can all see, is that all this delves into the depths of the legal system. Lawyers have been laying the foundation for social engineering in the form of case law for years now. Based upon my knowledge the situation "appears" to be black and white but the law may have been slowly modified through case law to the point where killing Terri IS in fact completely legal.

nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
Yes, the scary thing is not that Terri might die (I certainly hope she has a miraculous recovery, for the glory of God); rather, it is the misapplication of law toward the individuals the very law is to protect. In reading through the various statutes of Florida law concerning this case, I am baffled at how these portions of the law have been abused. Some parts ignored, other parts interpreted differently than clearly intended and stated in related sections...etc.
It is scary to see someone who, by law, is to receive any and all necessary treatment for rehabilitation and recovery, yet not be allowed those provisions by the same law. The fact that the law says and provides for one thing, yet is interpreted and enforced to do the opposite (or even something else entirely), is a precedent that will have far reaching effects. This isn't the first time such things have happened, but I believe it has the worst repercussions. Even the issue with the Florida Department of Children and Families not being allowed to become involved like they should be, under law, is something of concern.
The law of the land is to be held accountable - by other branches of government, and ultimately by the people in the land. But in this case, the law has refused to allow that. The law in Florida literally has gone from serving and helping the people to enslaving them. One state down, 49 more to go. I don't think I've ever wanted to cry out to God as much as I do right now. I posted some more of my thoughts on this a few days ago at my blog.
GUMP

Member

Posts: 1335
From: Melbourne, FL USA
Registered: 11-09-2002
Last night I was made aware on some interesting new facts.

1. Judge Greer is not allowing new evidence to be submitted to the court. According to my lawyer friend this was done to protect the current system where lawyers are able to control what evidence is allowed in a court case at the beginning of case.
2. In return for the $2.5 million Mr. Schiavo argued back in the early 90s that he wanted his wife to recover. He argued that she should be able to recover if entered in the proper rehab programs (which he needed the money for).
3. Shortly after receiving the money he retracted everything but the basic care that was required of him to provide (no rehab programs). Terri was forced to be locked in a room with almost zero mental stimulation for years on end (which would be enough to drive most people crazy). When Terri contracted a bacterial infection that possibly could have killed her he purposely ordered the attending nurses NOT to give Terri antibiotics. This is back in the early 90's and this is when Terri's parents first became worried.
4. 7 years later, with the court battle looking unlikely to end soon, Mr. Schiavo "suddenly" remembers a conversation he supposedly had with Terri where she supposedly said that, after watching a movie, she would not want to live under such circumstances as she is now.
5. Terri has never had a MRI. Terri has never been given a "swallow test" to determine if she could eat food normally (Mr. Schiavo has specifically denied that test multiple times). The ONLY evidence that has been allowed into the court by the judges is from an euthanasia doctor (who is just a WEE bit biased).

When I first started looking into this case I tried to keep an open mind and to be neutral. It's possible that Mr. Schiavo was truly looking out for his wife and her parents just couldn't emotionally let her go. After looking into it... this case stinks to high heavens!

Simon_Templar

Member

Posts: 330
From: Eau Claire, WI USA
Registered: 10-25-2004
There are several things in play here. Probably the biggest issue for the powers involved really has nothing at all to do with Terri Schiavo and her rights.
This has become a battle over judicial power, and particularly the left wing hold on the judiciary. The political left in the country has been soundly defeated in every area of government and politics except the judiciary. It is the last hold, the last power that the left has. As a result they are going to literaly fight to the last man to maintain the power of the courts to act independantly and even in contravention of the congress and the executive.

This situation also shows the difference in mindset between the left and the right when it comes to rule of law. Under the clinton administration when the judicial establishment stood in the way of what the executive wanted, the justice department directly intervened WITH ARMED FORCE to overturn or side step the judiciary. The right wing won't do this, even though in this case, they probably should.

In this case, the courts have built their position on the right of a person to refuse medical care.. however, they have completely ignored all evidence that is contrary to Mr. Schaivo's case. They have ignored the fact that Mr. Schaivo has done everything in his power to prevent his wife from recovering. We don't really know if she could have recovered because she was never given the chance.

Finally, this is a part of the culture of death which is beginning to consume western civilzation. Most people have no idea how far it has already come, or how many people in this country will be impacted by the outcome of the schiavo case. Right now, in the netherlands (who have always been a few steps ahead of the US in liberalism and euthenasia, laws are in place which allow babies (not unborn but already born babies) to be killed at their parent's request, if the children are deformed or have significant birth defects. The idea, first developed by the Nazi's of "useless eaters" people who are nothing but a drain on society being disposed of, is on our door step. Many people, even in the US, already have accepted this idea.

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-- All that is gold does not glitter,
Deep roots are not touched by the frost,
The old that is strong does not wither,
Not all those who wander are lost.

nfektious
Member

Posts: 408
From:
Registered: 10-25-2002
41 years of life. 14 days of death.

God be with the family and friends of Terri Schindler-Schiavo.

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
I think that the whole thing got turned into a giant scandal. This was not the best picture of humanity, it is apparent that some people will never be satisfied.

Also, where do all those people who go to protest come from? Don't they work? I mean, is there a website where people sign up to go "crusade?" It is ridiculous how many people show up to those things. I find it very humorous.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.

Brandon

Member

Posts: 594
From: Kansas City, Mo, USA
Registered: 02-02-2004
Hey Max, I think the people do have jobs, but it was a very important reason to take time off and protest against the cruel events that we have witnessed.

Yes, this is a very sad day indeed. May God comfort and be with Terri's family and friends... and I pray that He has mercy on us all ... as a Nation.

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I wanna die
And let You give
Your Life to me
So that I might live

crazyishone

Member

Posts: 1685
From:
Registered: 08-25-2004
dangomanidunnoman. dango.

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It is better to be silent and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. - Abe Lincoln

Max

Member

Posts: 523
From: IA
Registered: 09-19-2004
Sorry, I was just trying to make light a serious thing. But still, it's funny how people seem to pop out of the woodwork.

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* Eagles may soar, but weasels aren't sucked in jet engines.