First i want to begin on the area where i do agree with the point 'not legislating morality' and the role of the church is not to force non-christians who are already hellbound to keep the laws of God on the outside,surface while sin still runs rampant inside the flesh of the unregenerated soul.

The disciples (and the pharises and basically all the jews who were expecting a messiah)
were expecting a topdown, temporal kingdom, rules by the messiah by force - and in that they missed the boat, with many jews not recognising the messiah when Jesus did come. Jesus came so hubmly and the kingdom of God did not start in the way of human empires, through great magnificence and power and force in the external. No it started through Christ, and his humble sacrifice, and changes made the regenerated souls were through the inside out, not the outside in. For you can stop a murderer from murdering by forcefully putting him in prision and taking away from him the means of physically harming others, but he still has his will, and his heart can be full of murder (as can the heart of somebody who never murders anybody, just hates his brother).. outside in, can never change people, can never bring salvation. BY by the workings of hte Holy Spirit in men's hearts and lives , by the grace of God, the kingdom of God works the other way, from the inside out, changing men's hearts, which results in changed actions, not just on the surface, or just to conform to human standards and expectations, or not just holding back the evil desires of the heart because of fear of consequences, but from a changed heart, centered of Christ come motivations and enablings by the Holy Spirit unto great good deeds and 100 fold fruit.

I believe it is good for the church to stand up and have a voice on such issues like abortion, however the christian needs to be very much aware of what i mentioned before. and also aware that the battle is not against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities, and also be aware of what Matt said in a previous post, that alot of the issues in society, is because the church has abdicated its God given responsibilites has the lack of us being the light and the salt has made the world the breeding ground of such evil. It is easy to all who see the evil and injustice in abortion and such to let it just become a social agenda we get into so much, with more passion than we have for our personal relaitonship with Christ, with more passion than we have for sharing the gospel with those who are perishing. If so then we sin, for though what we stand for is good, if we remove our footing from the right foundation - which is Christ and Christ alone we stumble- However if we find we have misplaced out footings from the foundations, should we wash the baby out with the bathwater and just turn a blind eye to such evils? no - we should rather put our footing back on the rock, and continue with right motivations, right balance from the correct foundation - which is Christ, asking the Holy Spirit to move in our hearts towards love for those committing these crimes, and praying for salvation for them, and living at cost to ourselves to humbling and lovingly bring the message of salvation to them - at personal cost.

So if the new testament and the kingdom of God are from the inside out, not the outside in, and no amount of law, or force can change the hearts of men, nor affect salvation, then what is the purpose of law (as in the bible), or law (as in the secular law) or in the government? Should we just abandon it completely, let anarchy reign in society, or does God have purposes for those mechanisms (even though for for salvation purposes) but for social purposes? and also as Jesus came to fufill the law, and as christians we are not under the law - what is the purpose of the law still?

From throughout the bible , we know that God is in control of the universe and history, weaving his plan of redemption through things, having plans and purposes for each individual life, and acheiving his will despite fallen nature and free will of men.
from romans 13, titus 3 and other places we know that God has placed government for law and order (even though such law and order do not change the human heart). If we use the reasoning that legilated laws do not change human hearts to tolerate and turn a blind eye to sin such as abortion, then i believe we have washed the baby out of the bathwater, and if so, then we should also be against laws against murder, stealing, rape and such. think about that one in depth. i doubt that no christian who uses many arguements about not legislating about abortion would be for the complete destruction of the legal codes and tolerating all such sins to abound in society until judgement day. The real reason that we have such thought patterns is though we are against abortion to a degree we have been influenced by this world and its ways, we have be desensitised through carefully planned desisitisation campaigns, we so often consume so much of this world, and its worldview often competes (and often wins ) against the christ centered worldview. I know that even myself as a christian, having so often let myself be influenced (even if subtly) by the world, and its worldview rather than by christ have been desensitised to such evil. If we can tolerate silently abortion , then also tolerate silently Godless men raping your little daughters. if you can do that, then you are consistant with your ideology, if not then it points out that we do not see the evil of abortion as it really is, and do not hate Evil as God hates Evil (i don't mean hating the people who do it). its a paradox of great proportions, to hate evil to the infinity, but to love those who do this evil, in a sacrificing manner of great proportions as christ loves us, But i am intimately aware of the evil of my flesh, of the sacrifice that Christ did for me, despite being still an evil sinner, He died for me. THe knowledge of His great love motivates me to love others as He loves me, and He loves them.

So how is a christian to respond to such evil in the world, and what of the purpose of the law (as in the bible).
Remembering that as a Christian we are not to be hyjacked by social or political agendas (even if they are good), we have to always remember our purpose in life , God's plan for our lives, and also God's plan of redemption.
We are love God with all we are, and to love our neighbours. If loving God we pray that His will is to be done, and we love our neighbours knowing that God loves him and He wills for their salvation. Primarily our role is as an agent of God's will, an ambassador of Christ, through our lives, our actions and also our specific words , we are to preach the full Gospel of Christ to those around us, even though in doing Christ promises us we will be persucuted.

We are to be salt in this world, to be light, a city on a hill. through our lifestyle but also our words. We aren't trying to force people to obey the law - the ten commandments, No we are pointing them to their only saviour - Jesus, sometimes gently, sometimes with a great challenge, and even confrontation, often with confrontation of Sin, but not to judge them, but all in great love, loving them more than we love ourselves, with sacrifice. Love is the constant here, despite the technique.

so where does the law and sin come into this. Because of grace, and the new convernment do we ignore sin? no, where sin abounds grace abounds more. So often the modern church tries to sell christianity, what it can do for you, it can give you peace, fill that God-sized place in your heart, make your life better, we desperately try to sell/convince people that they need God. We treat it as a self-improvement scheme - "God can change you so you feel better about yourself, are more successful in your struggles in life, and don't ahve to hate yourself", we preach a watered down grace that doesn't include the fear of the Lord, and its is very self centered than God Centered. People read out a sinners prayer without understanding true repentance, or actually knowing that they are indeed horrid sinners, in need of a saviour. its just words, even though amazing true words, without the significance of the law, its just a ritual, and so often salvation doesn't occur.

The reason - because so often in our struggle against any sort of legalism, of be
'grace only', on refusing to 'strive', we have watered down the gospel, and watered down grace itself, we don't have any empahsis on sin or judgement because we are ashamed of past 'hell and brimstone' preachers - we have been so scared of the law, that we have washed it down with the bathwater, not understanding its true purpose (that is still there today)

so what is the purpose of this law.. first as christians we are no longer under law, for we could never live up to it, we have the rightouesness of Christ, He fufills the law for us, however we purposefully don't disobey it, we don't say "ok we are not under law so lets kill somebody", for as christians we are dead to sin, being transformed by the Holy Spirit to live rightoues lives. Our motivation for obeying the law, is not to obey the law as such, or to get out of its condemnation, but rather out of gratitute to God for His Salvation, and His great love, and because we love him for he first loved us, the same motivation for our good deeds (rather than legalisms motivation for God deeds - earning favour or our salvation). So if we have our motivation and foundation right, we need not fear the law, or just try to ignore it completely for it still has a purpose.

and the purpose comes from this

WE NEED A SAVIOUR. WE NEED JESUS. all men are born sinners, and the wages of sin are death, the law judges us so, and it still judges all those who are not covered by the blood of Christ.

If we do not emphase sin and the law when preaching the gospel, the hearers have no need for Jesus, they have no need for a saviour, because they have no conviction of sin, they have no standard to show that they have fallen short of the glory of God. If we just trying to sell christianity, then its something they might want to try "i've tried successful career, tried kinky sex, tried drugs - i'll give this a try, see if it does me any good", and without they law, and people knowing they are sinners against God in detail, there can be no repentance and therefore no acceptance of this salvation that Christ died. So the law still has its purpose.

and as christians in this world, part of our Job as light and salt - is not just to be visibly the image of Christ, it is to confront sin.. the prophets of old went throughout israel and even greater, and their message was often to various countries and leaders "YOU HAVE SINNED. (this is how. God and the Law are the standard, you have broken God's law. you need to repent or you'll be judged".

As christians in this evil world where everything is relavent, we so often have to stand up with a voice of truth (though we will be perscuted, so often we use excuses such are often used by christians for staying out of the abortion issue AS EXCUSED so we don't have to act, and show true love, and count the cost ourselves, we use these excuses to excuse ourself from being persecuted). but as prophets in this world we have to stand up and call sin sin, because if we don't we are not loving our neighbour , our silence is saying what they are doing is ok by us, we are letting their minds decieve themselves that they are not doing anything wrong, we are NOT giving them the oppurtinity to repent and thus recieve salvation. that is not love, to love them, we KNow God loves them and wants to save them, we need to give them every oppurtinity to repent, and that often includes pointing out sin.. but to be in such a role, you have to abide with Christ, and not judge them (because you are so aware of the sins you have been forgiven), you then are motivated by love, and love alone.

abortion is not a social agenda as such, sure it might not be an issue for inside the church, however SIN is SIN, and all men are going to be held accountible for sin by God, and Christians are to preach to all men to turn from sin.

now i am going to quote you christian, please don't take this as a personal attack, for in the past my thoughts have been similar to what you said, and i know many christians who have argued likewise, i am not saying this to offend you. or to argue with you. ionly use your quote because it is the best example i can find. From the first part of this post, know , Christian that i can see where you were coming from, and in that aspect i wholeheartedly agree with you.

quote:

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See, I disagree. If we want to say that a foetus is automatically human, at the point of conception, then why not sperm ? I oppose ALL abortion as a method of birth control, but I'd ask, what did this young woman do ? Why would you force her to look at her attakers face for the rest of her life, in her child ? Give up all her hopes and dreams for her life to raise the child of her attacker ? Or are you one to advocate adoption, as if there is an endless supply of adoptive parents, and as if this is an option that leads to well adjusted children by and large. None of the adopted children I know ( which includes my mother ) are without major problems as a result.

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first thing i want to mention, is that God can heal that what is broken, makes good out of that what was bad, but still there are always some consequences to sin, though God can heal a raped women, and use her amazingly through her healing, and turn the bitter pain into joy, the sin of rape still has some consequences of pain, same with the need for people to have been adopted. but the key issue is God's GRACE Is sufficent, And according to jer 29:11 God has plans and purposes, which are good for everybody. INcluding all these babies - who are we to interfere in God's plans by saying there is a good enough reason in our minds for that baby not to be born, God is God and he is sovereign and he knows best. He has plans and purposes for everybody , its our sin, and our rebelousness and not submitting to his will that causes all the problems.

lets look at this young girl. God often uses certian things in our lives to grow us, even suffering. This girl needs lots of love and support - i mean active love and support from other christians, christians who are actually sacrificing to love and support her. However i believe with faith in God and healing she would not see the face of her attacker for the rest of her life when she looks into her child (for to do so would be great harm to the child, hate , not love). But as she abides in Christ, and gets healing, and Christ prompts her to forgive her attacker she then is able to forgive her attacker, completely, which heals her as well, she realised that God has brought good out of that that is evil (i mean God knitted together this baby in her womb, God did, and that person is a marvelous creation by God - a good thing, a blessing, children are a blessing from the LOrd), though the rape is evil and causes harm, her child is a blessing and her role as a mother (even in difficult situations) is a blessing as well, maybe she mightn't have her dreams and plans anymore, but she can submit to the will of God and recieve His dreams and plans for her - which are good, and much better than when we try to determine our own destiny and desires, and in abiding in Christ he gives us the desires of our hearts. and she isn't giving it up to raise the child of her attacker, she is giving it up to raise her Child, and the Child her heavenly father knit together in her womb, and to show love to this child. Though the beginning is a terrible thing, what God transforms it into can be a marvelous , a great and good thing. God's grace is sufficent for all situations, He is in control of the universe, and His loves abounds, if we submit ourselves fully to Him, we can endure all the sufferings of life, and of course the persecutions that result from taking up our cross and following Christ daily. I'm not saying it will be easy for this women, but it will be the most rewarding, and God gives her the strength to overcome, and made her to be the mother of her children, not the killer of them. THe narrow way is not always easy, but it is the right way.

romans 12:2
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

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Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

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When we are following Christ, we are for righteousness and against evil too. In fact, we just grow so that we can follow the spirit rather than the letter of the law--we could consider that a good overview of the difference for believers and non, and a good example that Jesus gave for our understanding. Then we do become "dead" to the law, because it is no longer something we follow out of fear for punishment, but we hunger for the right way. HOWEVER, at times those laws do serve all Christians--when faced with the possibility of sin they remember the laws! And they teach the laws of God to their children and act in His stead to enforce them, as a just government does to its citizens.

The need for grace doesn't mean that we can't follow the rules or try to live up to them (be perfect like your Father); it means that we can't live up to God's law (in letter perhaps we have a better chance, but in spirit, no).

About legislating morality about issues like abortion, consider (1) as Karl mentioned, God put governments on earth for His reasons and our benefit. (2) We know that governments can be evil, and when this happens, the results can be terrible. From these two facts, we can infer that we have an obligation to influence government (if possible) for the good of humans and the will of God.

As for social agendas, Jesus called us to some--heal the sick, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit those in prison, give to the poor, love your neighbor as yourself.

In conclusion, these things really all fit together neatly when we look at it in the right way. Christians should be against abortion wherever possible and not be afraid or discouraged in the least to influence the world to follow God's laws just as the world tries to influence Christians to forsake them. That's the only way to be "salt."

If we're not actively protesting abortion and doing something to try to stop it--something that a bystander could notice as different behavior from someone who is pro-choice or doesn't care--then we are neglecting grace as well as the law, and trashing our earthly freedom too. It's also turning our backs on the rights of the unborn who lose the privelege and gift of earthly life outside the womb that we have enjoyed. It's lacking empathy and common sense and disobeying the first commandment.

(Love thy neighbor has also been built into the practical scheme of things in a way, as most of God's laws are--consider, if we neglect to defend the rights of others, ours are also in danger, and if the lives of the unborn are worth less, ours will tend to be devalued and endangered too. The beauty of God's laws is that as they are intrinsic to truth and His creation, they are there in nature and human experience to witness to the non-believer too. The whole Creation witnesses of the Creator.)

Anyway, if an innocent adult were being sacrificed every 20 seconds with the government's blessing, and they never knew whether they themselves might be the next called to slaughter, I don't think Christians would be debating about to what extent they should try to impose the morality of believers on non-believers!

Let's just try to stop the biggest holocaust and save the victims, period. It really should high on our priorities. Do something now!

Curry

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

There's an abortion every 20 seconds ? In the USA, or in the world ? I find that hard to believe.

>> I don't think Christians would be debating about to what extent they should try to impose the morality of believers on non-believers!

Is opposing the death penalty a Christian issue ? I believe it's a socially just and moral issue. In starting this discussion, all I was arguing for was seperation between social agenda and Christianity, not that a social agenda is of itself wrong, and also that Christians should not link their faith to issues which are not core to the Gospel and which cause division. I still oppose abortion, I just think that making it illegal solves nothing, the key is in educating those who would consider abortion. If people lived moral lives, there would be no need for abortion. Should we then make premarital sex illegal ? It is not allowed in the church, period, but outside the church, what right do we have to legislate our morals ? How does this help bring people to Christ ?

quote:

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Christian:
I still oppose abortion, I just think that making it illegal solves nothing

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This may sound redundant....
it will solve something, it'll save lives.

one reason it should be made illegal is for the safety of the kids.

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[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited October 21, 2003).]

if we shouldn't make abortion illegal, then we should legislate rape , child molestation (i mean if we can kill the children, why not sexually abuse them?) and murder and stealing. We shouldn't have a government system that punishes people for those personal moral choices should we?

do you think that the above which are illegal should be legistlated as illegal? or should they be legalised like abortion? - if you don't think so, doesn't that show that in your inner of inners, despite lip service against the evils of abortion, you don't see it as serious as the above.

and even if there was no fornication/adultery there are many people - married people who get abortions for other reason - they weren't wanting another kid, it would 'mess' up their plans for both working to get the house of their dreams etc etc etc.

Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

It's *not* as serious. Just because cells are dividing does not make them attached to sentient life. That part of the discussion I have tried to avoid because I know that everyone here prefers emotion to fact.

>> and even if there was no fornication/adultery there are many people - married people who get abortions for other reason - they weren't wanting another kid, it would 'mess' up their plans for both working to get the house of their dreams etc etc etc.

Surely people who are in a relationship and have sex regularly use contraception if they don't want a child ? Or are people in America totally stupid ? Either way, the answer is to *educate* people rather than to legislate. It's because of American fanatics that I feel the need to take the view I do, probably 50 years ago I would have been more against abortion, because I would have felt it possible to feel that way without being labelled part of a group of ( frankly ) morons. I'm not talking about people here now, I'm talking about people who call abortion clinics 'death camps' and kill abortion doctors. Either way, my POV is irrelevant, it's not going to do anything to change the situation. My core point in all of this is that I'd rather be talking about Jesus, and so many people think they ARE following Christ when they instead follow a social agenda and are known for things that cannot save the soul. If a particular child is born or not is ultimately irrelevant unless that child also comes to know Jesus. Without that knowledge, they are going to die anyhow. So what is more important ?

quote:

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It's *not* as serious. Just because cells are dividing does not make them attached to sentient life. That part of the discussion I have tried to avoid because I know that everyone here prefers emotion to fact.

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Unfortunately, this is a line-drawing fallacy - where do we draw the line of "sentient"? Does God neccessarily give a soul to a person when they become "sentient," or before/after?

Some religous cults don't believe a human is "sentient" until three years old. Should we allow one- and two- year olds to be killed just because they "aren't sentient?"

Some Christians also believe that the fetus is given a soul at conception.

This leads to a major problem when deciding when an individual is past the point of "too late to abort." Everybody has different ideas of where the line should be.

Who gets to do the line-drawing?

I beg to differ with your statement. I believe that it is as serious, otherwise we're left with a line so fuzzy it can be put practically anywhere.

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I know that everyone here prefers emotion to fact.

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Feel free to point out the flaws in my reasoning, as well as any emotional outbursts.

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Surely people who are in a relationship and have sex regularly use contraception if they don't want a child ?

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If they're mature adults, yes. Unfortunately, many are neither adult nor mature. You really think this culture gives our children the impression that they should think before having sex? Most of what I see portrayed in our media is a culture of sex being purely emotional.

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Either way, the answer is to *educate* people rather than to legislate.

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Unfortunately, when one's beliefs is that killing fetuses is just as immoral as killing adults, this statement turns out to be horrifying, as it would still allow the killings to happen. You're not addressing the moral beliefs of many people.

With our culture being the way it is, people aren't thinking about their sexuality anyways, they're busy feeling it. Would our education system neccessarily overrule our culture? One would hope so, but how do we know for sure?

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If a particular child is born or not is ultimately irrelevant unless that child also comes to know Jesus.

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Will you give that child the chance to know Jesus? Or would you deny that child the chance? It is relevent; God wants people to get to heaven .

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Without that knowledge, they are going to die anyhow. So what is more important ?

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Than growing up and getting the chance to know and love Jesus? I honestly don't know. I thought getting to know Christ is the most important part of being a Christian. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: Apparently, this board doesn't have [u] [/u].

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There are only 10 types of people - those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Planning, writing GFX basecode.

[This message has been edited by CobraA1 (edited October 22, 2003).]

quote:

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Originally posted by christian:
Just because cells are dividing does not make them attached to sentient life. That part of the discussion I have tried to avoid because I know that everyone here prefers emotion to fact.

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hmmm... I see, you want to talk about facts, huh? you haven't given me one. (I'm not trying to get antagonistic)
From my view of facts and science, life begins at conception. at conception, the fetus has it's own set of DNA, it's growing independtly of the parent, with the exception of nourishment. People have been fed the lie that's it's merely a tissue.

I want to tell you something. We are not here to merely share the gospel. That is not our "ultimate" mission.
We are here to glorify God. We do this by doing what he says. This includes witness to people about Christ. But remember, witnessing is utterly worthless if God told you to do something else.
Your wisdom is foolishness to God.

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My core point in all of this is that I'd rather be talking about Jesus, and so many people think they ARE following Christ when they instead follow a social agenda and are known for things that cannot save the soul.

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It's because of American fanatics that I feel the need to take the view I do, probably 50 years ago I would have been more against abortion, because I would have felt it possible to feel that way without being labelled part of a group of ( frankly ) morons.

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If a particular child is born or not is ultimately irrelevant unless that child also comes to know Jesus. Without that knowledge, they are going to die anyhow. So what is more important ?

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we will be held partially responsible for the deaths of those children if we do nothing. we have the truth. I'm not denying the fact that we need to witness to people, of course. But you make witnessing and "social reform" mutually exclusive. Where do you get that?(real question, not rhetorical)

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CobraA1
Apparently, this board doesn't have

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oh, and to answer your question... the most important thing is to glorify God... this includes witnessing and growing in Christ.

EDIT: woohoo... 600 posts!
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[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited October 22, 2003).]

quote:

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Apparently, this board doesn't have

that just confused me....

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[u]underlined text[/u] = underline in most forums . Off-topic.

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There are only 10 types of people - those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Planning, writing GFX basecode.

This philosophy of it being useless to press our morals on other people is just Satan's old familiar mantra for the humanists repackaged slightly to sell to unwary Christians. This is quite un-Biblical and we have numerous examples to the contrary. When whole civilizations like Sodom and Gomorrah got too sinful, what happened? No, they were not believers either, but their behavior still mattered.

The record indicates that God is pleased when people are righteous and it's a horrible condition when they aren't. The Creation testifies of God, and His laws and the choice of following His morals or not are also built into the Creation and intrinsic. This articificial separation of sin and faith in some pop theology is just confusion. The only result is that Christians are losing the battle to promote righteousness. I don't think keeping hands off of issues helps promote Jesus either. Other people respect us more when we stand up for something and provide an active witness in all respects, not a compartmentalized ministry without any backbone.

Curry

[This message has been edited by Curry (edited October 23, 2003).]

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I thought the Bible said that God knows who is His. Do you think we can kill someone who God has chosen for eternal life ?

>> at conception, the fetus has it's own set of DNA, it's growing independtly of the parent,

Sure - at the end of the day, it all depends on what criteria you set. A cancer grows independent of it's host, does that make it alive ? By the logic that you employ, you should be able to jail a woman for smoking or drinking ( or allowing herself to be subject to too much stress, for that matter ), while pregnant. Why not campaign for those things ?

>> I want to tell you something. We are not here to merely share the gospel. That is not our "ultimate" mission.
We are here to glorify God. We do this by doing what he says. This includes witness to people about Christ. But remember, witnessing is utterly worthless if God told you to do something else.

God tells all Christians to do the same things. NO-ONE has a 'ministry from God' to stop abortion, or to save the whales, or any other social agenda.

>> God tells you what to do, whether it is to witness, or follow a social agenda.

Rubbish. God tells no-one to follow an agenda that will alienate people for reasons other than the Gospel.

>> I might be wrong, but it seems that your view is relative to other people's view... so, what's up? Are you compromising to not be an outcast? or are you compromising to have a better platform onto witness to people

I seek to offend for no other reason than the Gospel. therefore, the way I present myself in relation to things that are extraneous to the Gospel is indeed considered based on how it will affect my witness, the likelihood that people will reject the Gospel of Christ because I've identified myself too strongly with some worldly thing which will offend them. I believe that's what Paul meant when He said to be 'all things to all men.'. Of course, where an issue is central to the Gospel, I remain unmovable.

>> and who makes that decision? you? government? some parents?

Well, that's a fair call. It's equally true that a lot of children are born into families where they are not raised by caring parents - they get fed and clothed, but not shown any love. This is a HUGE problem for our society, and it's exactly the same as abortion - there is not a thing you can do about it. In both cases, the solution is the love of Jesus - a person who knows that love will not kill their child, and will love them when they are born. Which comes full circle to the point I keep struggling to make, that by fighting against abortion, you enter a battle you cannot win, and which alienates people needlessly. Get someone filled with the Holy Spirit, and you've got one more person who won't have an abortion.

>> But you make witnessing and "social reform" mutually exclusive. Where do you get that?(real question, not rhetorical)

The Bible only talks about social reform, such as feeding the poor, within the context of the church helping it's own. Sure, it says if we meet a person who has a need and do not help them, it is worthless to speak platitudes, but even that is given as an example of how faith works, and not as specific instruction. Indeed, 1 Cor 13 says that feeding the poor is worthless if we don't have love. So from that I believe that my goal is to meet people with the Gospel, and to help with any physical needs I may come across as a result of that, but not to seek to feed peoples belly specifically, at the expense of the soul.

>> that just confused me....

He tried to use a tag to underline something, and then removed it as it didn't work.

>> This philosophy of it being useless to press our morals on other people is just Satan's old familiar mantra for the humanists repackaged slightly to sell to unwary Christians.

OK - so you DO believe we are saved by works ? That if people just live a clean life, they will be saved even though they don't love Jesus ?

>> The record indicates that God is pleased when people are righteous and it's a horrible condition when they aren't.

So how do we become righteous, by works, or by the grace of God ? If the latter, why try to get the people of this world to do good works, apart from that grace ?

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I seek to offend for no other reason than the Gospel. therefore, the way I present myself in relation to things that are extraneous to the Gospel is indeed considered based on how it will affect my witness, the likelihood that people will reject the Gospel of Christ because I've identified myself too strongly with some worldly thing which will offend them. I believe that's what Paul meant when He said to be 'all things to all men.'. Of course, where an issue is central to the Gospel, I remain unmovable.

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So how do we become righteous, by works, or by the grace of God ? If the latter, why try to get the people of this world to do good works, apart from that grace ?

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My Web Comic: Code Rage

Because we're all going to die.

I think YOU'RE missing an important point, and I don't know why, because I raised it. You can't make people live without sin, because even people who live a clean life live under sin without Christ. So on what level is
standing up for rightouesness' the same as trying to force people to live a christian life, apart from Christ ?

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Originally posted by christian:
I thought the Bible said that God knows who is His.

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A cancer grows independent of it's host, does that make it alive ?

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By the logic that you employ, you should be able to jail a woman for smoking or drinking ( or allowing herself to be subject to too much stress, for that matter ), while pregnant. Why not campaign for those things ?

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God tells all Christians to do the same things.

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Rubbish. God tells no-one to follow an agenda that will alienate people for reasons other than the Gospel.

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...I've identified myself too strongly with some worldly thing which will offend them. I believe that's what Paul meant when He said to be 'all things to all men.'.

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Of course, where an issue is central to the Gospel, I remain unmovable.

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Indeed, 1 Cor 13 says that feeding the poor is worthless if we don't have love. So from that I believe that my goal is to meet people with the Gospel, and to help with any physical needs I may come across as a result of that, but not to seek to feed peoples belly specifically, at the expense of the soul.

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I thought the Bible said that God knows who is His.

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God does indeed know who is his.

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Do you think we can kill someone who God has chosen for eternal life ?

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Oppressive leaders kill Christians all of the time. The answer is "yes."

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A cancer grows independent of it's host, does that make it alive ?

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I don't think "living" is a criteria here - plants, animals, and single-celled animals are all living, biologically speaking.

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at conception, the fetus has it's own set of DNA

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This, however is important - the fetus is an individual, and not considered part of the mother as far as the mother's immune system is concerned. If it weren't for the placenta, the mother's immune system would attack and kill the fetus. Hence, I reject the explanation that the fetus is "part" of the mother.

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NO-ONE has a 'ministry from God' to stop abortion, or to save the whales, or any other social agenda.

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It's breaking a commandment. The reason why it's so important is because this is about whether abortion is considered murder.

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Which comes full circle to the point I keep struggling to make, that by fighting against abortion, you enter a battle you cannot win, and which alienates people needlessly.

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I have long considered whether "unwinnable" battles are worth fighting, and I have come up with a different philosophy than you have: I think they are worth fighting if they can sufficiently do the job - we need not completely win, just mostly win.

The battle for the spreading Christianity can never really be won until the end times, but does that make it not worth fighting for?

The battle to curb crime in the United States also cannot be completely won - there will always be more criminals to catch - does that mean we give up and dismantle our law enforcement?

Some battles are worth fighting for, even if the battle can never be completely "won."

In last message:

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my point is that I'd rather be known for the Gospel than for social issues.

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My point is that is isn't just a "social issue." You have yet to show otherwise.

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That doesn't mean I don't care about them, I just have more eternal things to do.

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So do I. I plan on witnessing to those who haven't been aborted, and praying for the soul of those who have.

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There are only 10 types of people - those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Planning, writing GFX basecode.

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thats just an atheist's opinion. take it as you wish

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Love everyone, dude, dont be blind because everyones got their nose in a different book but we're all singing the same song. - me

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Love everyone, dude, dont be blind because everyones got their nose in a different book but we're all singing the same song. - me

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

this is only hours post fertilization, perhaps minutes.

if you are going on other things heres a table for you!
pain felt - 9 weeks
viability - 22 weeks
outside of mother - 7-9.5 months
able to care for itself without mother - 18-42 years

teens beware of the superliberal feminists who take cues from the last item on this list (there are none, as far as I know), you might not wake up tomorrow! bwahahahah! JK!

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Love everyone, dude, dont be blind because everyones got their nose in a different book but we're all singing the same song. - me

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

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Originally posted by AtheistAdmirer:
. . . like a city could declare itself christian, . . . then go at it, illegalize homosexuality and abortion all you want you know!? thats your thing, youre 100% christian...its an acceptable theocracy.

thats just an atheist's opinion. take it as you wish

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Interesting idea, but it's unfeasible, and brings us back to the days of segregation .

In any case, there tends to be some biology involved in the homosexuality and abortion cases - they're not purely religious issues. It's not just religious differences that seperate people, it's philisophical and political as well.

Also, what happens when somebody breaks the law outside their community, or they break a community law that's legal within their own community? Things are bound to become complex and messy quickly . . .

It's an interesting idea, but it would probably create more problems than it solves.

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There are only 10 types of people - those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Planning, writing GFX basecode.

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So if I stand let me stand on the promise that you will pull me through, and if I can't let me fall on the grace that first brought me to you. And if I sing let me sing for the joy that has born in me these songs, and if I weep let it be as a man who is longing for his home.
(Rich Mullins)

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

If you take the argument that only those under grace can be punished, then the logical conclusion is that only murderers who happen to be professing Christians should get the death penalty. Anyone have thoughts about this subject and the content starting at 1 Timothy 1:8?

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So if I stand let me stand on the promise that you will pull me through, and if I can't let me fall on the grace that first brought me to you. And if I sing let me sing for the joy that has born in me these songs, and if I weep let it be as a man who is longing for his home.
(Rich Mullins)

You are all discussing abortion as if it is a theological discussion. I would like you all to know that it is 100% real. Before I go on hold your left hand up and look at your index finger. What do you see? do you see the wrinkles, do you see the veigns(spelt wrong?) passing through it, do you see the intricate nail or do you see a miracle?
When I was younger I was not a Christian and I didn't believe in much. I was lucky enough to have a girlfriend that I really loved and she loved me. One night I was told that she had been unfaithful by one of her friends, I was absolutely gutted. I immediately split up with her out of pride. A little while later I found out that my ex lover was pregnant, my ex told me shortly after I found out. Because she had been unfaithful I told her that I didn't want anything to do with her, but I would be happy to help with the baby(even if it wasn't mine). She agreed and then got an abortion. I was ready to help if she needed it.
No-one here does seem to understand,sorry I can't go on

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If the dream is big enough the facts don't count.-Dexter Yager

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If the dream is big enough the facts don't count.-Dexter Yager

If it is a response to sexual misconduct, then it is not the solution to the problem - only a treatment for the symptom of the problem.
If it is a response to criminal behavior, then it is not the solution to the problem - only a treatment for the symptom of the problem.
If it is a response to personal comfort, then it is not the solution to the problem - only a treatment for the symptom of the problem.

Abortion is a surgical procedure, not a social remedy.

I expect my response to ellicit more conversation, which it should, so I will refrain myself for the moment to allow that to occur.

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Originally posted by Silicon_Chippy:
No-one here does seem to understand,sorry I can't go on

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I think there are some people here that understand better than you think they do----give it a try--------if nothing else at least you can say you have the guts to put something terribly personal on the line for everbody to see---and that is one true form of bravery if I have ever seen a true form:-)

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

I ran across a good article on the law-morality-abortion at http://christiananswers.net/q-sum/q-life011.html

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So if I stand let me stand on the promise that you will pull me through, and if I can't let me fall on the grace that first brought me to you. And if I sing let me sing for the joy that has born in me these songs, and if I weep let it be as a man who is longing for his home.
(Rich Mullins)

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Originally posted by crptc_prgrmr:
I used to think that killing them was murder, I've got to confess I'm not convinced anymore.

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by them do you mean doctors? that isn't right either-------I am one of those people that generally would like to see children put up for adoption----but if it is a situation where the girl was raped------------I don't see where she should have to have the responsibility of a 9 month pregnancy that is going to be very traumatic because the gaining weight is going to be a testament to what someone else did to her----------that is like being raped a million times over again----not that it is the baby's fault----but that is a big responsibilty that a rape victim didn't agree too--------------that is my only uncomfortable feeling with this discussion.

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

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Originally posted by zookey:
by them do you mean doctors? that isn't right either-------I am one of those people that generally would like to see children put up for adoption----but if it is a situation where the girl was raped------------I don't see where she should have to have the responsibility of a 9 month pregnancy that is going to be very traumatic because the gaining weight is going to be a testament to what someone else did to her----------that is like being raped a million times over again----not that it is the baby's fault----but that is a big responsibilty that a rape victim didn't agree too--------------that is my only uncomfortable feeling with this discussion.

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--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

Yeh but thats still a life, you can't justify killing a human being, God has a plan and a purpose for that baby before it was ever in the mothers womb, you can't just go and take that away!

--D-SIPL

YEAH, AND THAT IS A HARD POINT TO ARGUE AGAINST--------BUT WHAT KIND OF LIVING HELL WOULD IT BE TO CARRY A MARK OF A VIOLENT CRIME AGAINST YOU FOR NINE MONTHS-------I GUESS THERE IS NO EASY ANSWER TO IT BUT IT IS CERTAINLY A LIVING HELL I WOULDN'T WISH ON MY WORST ENEMY----ALTHOUGH I AINT INTO RAPING PEOPLE EITHER SO I GUESS I AM TOTALLY OUT OF THAT BAD GUY MIND SET ANYWAYS LOL-------------BTW ON A RELATED SUBJECT (WELL, HALF WAY RELATED) HOW MANY HERE THINK WAKO JAKO IS GUILTY OF CHILD MOLESTATION? *ZOOKEY'S HAND SHOOTS UP IN THE AIR*

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

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...BUT WHAT KIND OF LIVING HELL WOULD IT BE TO CARRY A MARK OF A VIOLENT CRIME AGAINST YOU FOR NINE MONTHS...

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What kind of testimony would it be to carry that mark in spite of the crime and let the evil against you be turned to good for the glory of God?

Truly, there are so many things we cannot understand in our own thinking - whether we sincerely want to understand them or wish them to sink into oblivion. And that is why it is important, so very important, for us to leave what we cannot control and cannot understand in the complete and total control of God, who brings all things to His glory and honor. It is not for us to question "Why did God allow this?" or "Why did this happen to me?"; rather, we should ask "How can I give God glory in this thing?". The answer may not be a simple matter of a minute; it could take years - a lifetime - to change that one moment from a cursing to a blessing.

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

its good for christians to stand up against abortion, but it is bad for them to hate women who have abortions and doctors who do them. For all such people are sinners, the same as the rest of us, all sin is against God and we are equally in need of a saviour and of God's grace. I believe it is a sin for christian to have deep hatred against abortion doctors, its better rather for them to love these doctors (i don't mean agree with them or tolerate their evil) but to pray FOR them, to cultivate love. If God uses a christian to confront or correct another - LOVE is the prerequisite, without it - we are ussually just judging that person according to our feelings, prejudices and self rightouesness. Though i have never had anything to do with abortion, i am just as much a sinner as a girl who has an abortion, or as an abortion doctor - I am equally in need of God's grace and the forgiveness through Christ's blood as them. I am just thankful to God that I live in that grace and forgiveness, and then have have sincere pity on such people and pray for them, and love them.

as for the raped girl, I can *UNDERSTAND* how and why such a girl would want to have an abortion - to get the rape behind them, to try to forget - to get some closure. I can also *UNDERSTAND* how said girl who lives in a society and enviroment that says the unborn baby isn't a person could easily do something. But that doesn't mean i can agree that it is right in that situation. there are many hard things in life, but God's grace is sufficent?

some questions for you to ponder.

Would it be ok for said girl who decided to keep her baby, to then kill her 2 year old because the baby reminded her of her rapist and brought back the pain everytime she looked into the baby's eyes? if not then how is it right to get an abortion in that situation

What if the raped girl was a Christian? would that change your idea on the situation

I believe that God can turn the bad into good, he can heal broken hearts, His grace is sufficent for every situation - for a non christian i can't fathom how hard it would be in this world - even without such a horrible experience
however as a christian, i can see the plans and purposes for that Baby's life - BUT ALSO for the MOTHER
How he can use suffering to build various Godly attributes into our lives, give us compassion and sympathy for those who suffer like wise, being able to minister to them.
Remember Children are a gift from the Lord. Though the father may be a rapist, the one who gave her the child is God, though bring up a baby as a solo mother is difficult, God's grace is sufficent, and it can be a rewarding experience.
rather that killing the only good thing that can come out of the rape
you can have this child, this amazing Child, made in God's image , and you can thank God that good came out of the bad. There can be healing in that, rather than the post-abortion trauma compounding that of the rape.
its a matter of perspective
one person can see their child and think of all they have given up, career etc, how hard it is, remember their suffering and rape
another can be honest about the pain and hurt
but the other can be constantly reminded the good that God brought out of the bad, of God's grace in helping her raise this child.

enough said

Karl

b.t.w i have heard some amazing testimonies from women who have been raped (and in some cases impregnated), and how God got them through, how they were able to forgive their attackers and suciesh. Its in light of such testimones that we can see this issue

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

[This message has been edited by klumsy (edited November 24, 2003).]

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

More importantly on this topic, it's not about hate, it's about life and death.

As I said, I'm not certain myself on the deaths of death-doctors, but arguments like these don't convince me.

Consider if someone killed Hitler or Stalin, simply to stop them from continuing to kill others. This is the reason for the death penalty in the first place, not because it's a crime that even God can't forgive, because he can, but to stop it from continuing. Or is it perhaps that people who dress in smocks are more "respectable"? Euthenasia, abortion, and a number of other crimes carried out under the banner of medical care are the fault of the people who carry them out. In the case of abortion other people may be involved, but someone does the butchering. No, I don't hate the doctors, or the people who use them, but it is evil, and it has to be stopped.

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So if I stand let me stand on the promise that you will pull me through, and if I can't let me fall on the grace that first brought me to you. And if I sing let me sing for the joy that has born in me these songs, and if I weep let it be as a man who is longing for his home.
(Rich Mullins)

with abortions once again---I support ADOPTION over ABORTION-----and, killing 'death doctors' isn't going to stop it------don't get caught in the social aspect of don't judge? i say don't get caught in the man-made-church aspect of do-judge--------------God set it up for us all to be forgiven----if you want to kill these death doctors then you need to kill all of us including yourself because, according to the Bible, we all deserve death for what we do----that is why Jesus had to die on the cross---because it is impossible for anyone of us to make it on our own------if you are that adamant against abortion---then do something positive! Start a clinic or help start one that offers alternatives----but I hate to break it to you going off and killing people for having a different view on a political issue isn't going to change anything----------------that is just an intimidation tactic and is more about control than anything---------like I said if you are really against it---free up the situation for other people by offering positive alternatives that allow both the baby and mother to have full lives.

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

But yes, as in the street... hate the game, not the player.

Euthenasia is obviously wrong if the person didn't choose it.
now, if the person did, that would be suicide.
so, is suicide wrong?

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maybe we should have euthanasia thread seperately. Living in the western world, being bombaarded day by day by secular thoughts and humanistic ideas, media and the things we entertain ourselves with, often we have much more worldly influence on our life than from God's word, and it taints and distorts our worldview.
comparing the death of somebody and an animal is very different, and calling euthanisia 'death with DIGNITY' is distorting the picture, as death is not a degnified thing, its the result of the curse, the fall. The only dignified way to die is for the christian, and its a great thing no matter how he dies. But the issues to do with purpose/salvation/life and death do not overlap with the issues of our dying dog.

but again it points back to worldview.

to the humanist and secular worldview

a person who is suffering and wants to die (well euthanisia starts there, but it often further goes onto is pressured to think that way because of being a burden on their family, society, the health system. ), but anyway lets say this person wants to be euthanised. as humanists we feel that his is right, we see his pain and suffering (and those who have to deal with him) and think "if he dies and is out of his misery" then all is good.

however to a Christian worldview

If the person is not a christian, then his death isn't dignified in one bit, and his suffering goes from mild earthy suffering to unimaginable suffering in hell, complete seperation from God and God's loving grace that fed that man his life, gave him every breath, sustained every heartbeat. if choosing (or being persuaded by the prevailing mindsets) to end his life , there are no more chances of recieving the gospel, and being saved. IF somebody ELSE makes this decision for him, then you can see the even worse consequences.

If the person IS a christian THEN:
as a christian you believe God is in control of the universe and also your life, you believe that when it is time for you to die , God will take you, and then because you are still alive, you still have a plan and purpose to being alive, and also for the pain and suffering, you have God's grace ,which is sufficent, to sustain you.

see its just a matter of perspective

don't be duped by the thinkings of this evil age.

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

i think you got me wrong about 'self-rigteousness'. I believe it to be a problem. but i am not for 'tolerate everything', BUT i am against "judging by selfrigteousness" and "judging without loving the object of your judgement". I say stand up and say homosexuality is wrong. it needs to be said. But i say don't be homophobic and never hate homosexuals (hate what they do though - it is a foul abomination before God). I find in the churches two extremes, you have the tolerate all and homosexuality isn't a sin like the american anglicans (episcopalian) and many (its funny how its the 'traditional' style churches that are the most liberal in these things - but conseravative in their 'forms', which the churches that are more modern are more conservative on these issues while 'modern' in their forms.) anyway. i find you have that one extreme, and it saddens my heart that such wickedness can get into the church, but even more that evil is made to look as good, and linked with Christ - for evil is always evil and will be in this world to the end, but to have it linked with Christ and be called good is so terrible). but on the other hand you have christians who are homophobic, would have nothing to do with a homosexual, judge them to hell, hate them.. and have no love towards them, and no desire to share the gospel with them.
However knowing people who have worked in ministries outreaching to homosexuals, i believe that is wrong. I will stand up and say homosexuality is wrong, and practioners of it will not inherit the kingdom of God - in canada this would be classed Hate speech. But i will also be friends of non christian homosexuals, (though i must admit it is hard, its not something that i do natural - i'd rather ignore them), and every single aspect of my friendship is not just going to be saying they are sinning, however i won't be shy in hiding my belief, and confronting them. Because if i 'tolerate' and never mention it is wrong, how is that loving them. to love them i need to show point them to Christ, and his forgiveness, and why they need forgiven. However i will show christian love to them still and won't hate them.
you know the self rigteous bridgade often will condemn homosexuality but turn a blind eye to other sexual sin in the church, (well the teenage fornication, they'll get over it, its just their young hormones etc etc)
or you'll get some guy who openly detests homosexual men and hates them, but secretly in his mind life fantasises over lesbians.
How i said that i will be friends on nonchristian homosexuals, however if a somebody claims to be christian, and a practicing homosexual and says that practicing homosexuality is not wrong, i will cut off contact with him, and expel him out of the church.
There is so much sexual immoarility of different sorts inside the church that needs to be dealt with, rather than hating the heathen for their sexual pervesions. lets clean the church.
at a christian promise keepers rally recently 50% of men there admited to using porn in the last 7 days. Lets clean house. but yes we need to stand up and declare SIN as SIN, and then Sinner's need for a saviour. but in love, not in hate or judgement, for venegence is the Lords, and judging is his job too. The judging we are responsible for is inside the church.

as for killing abortion doctors - i believe that is a sin of murder the same as killing a woman who had an abortion, or killing any sinner for whatever sin they did. And besides i have yet to see a killer of abortion doctors who showed love in any way, but rather hate, and it was emotional passion that was the motivation of course of the murder

For God has plans and purposes and salvation and redemption for abortion doctors as well, don't interfere with what God is doing. we can use what if's like somebody killed hitler - you know before hitler was powerful somebody talked him out of committing suicide!, but what if's don't do it for me, because you can also say What if somebody had killed this or that very evil purpose, but many such evil powerful people in the past, have later come to know Christ, and then their influence for good far exceeded their initial evil (which of course doesn't excuse it), but i mean if some self rightoues christian had knocked them off, trying to help God do His job, they would have one subverted the oppurnitiy to save this individual (when our purpose as a christian, is the share the gospel), and two intered with the plans and purposes of God.. so enough about what ifs.
because what if the following guy had been killed. i mean he was responsibile for over 70,000 abortions - a mass murderer of epic proportions, but God came into his life, and turned him around, and now he influences many for God against abortion
his website is
http://www.silentscream.org/

archangel,
and about whether suicide is wrong.. i beleive so. to a society it isn't as much because its not harming anybody else (well it does emotionally, causing family to have guilt etc, and can be very selfish, a way that peopleescape their responsibilites)..
however to God i believe it is a sin, as you are still killing a human being, you re killing a person made in the image of God, you are braking the 'thou shalt not kill' commandment. and that person will be answerable not to me or you, but to God for their sin

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

and yeah. screw tolerance. if it's wrong, don't tolerate.
but never hate. always love.
stand up always for what is right.

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quote:

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but never hate. always love.

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I would like to emphasize that point. I totally agree .

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There are only 10 types of people - those who understand binary, and those who don't.
Switch Mayhem now available! Get it here
Codename: Roler - Planning, writing GFX basecode.

Yeah, We should probably have another topick on Euthanasia---but I think that, if the person is termanilly ill and has very bad pain and very bad suffering, it isn't our right to tell them they have to live with it----not saying it is an option I would opt for (just like I support adoption over abortion) personally, but just because it doesn't fit in my personal outlook doesn't give me the right to deny it to some guy who is so far gone with an illness he is afraid of choking on his own spit-------i don't have to walk in his shoes and feel that terror every day--and true, if i did have to walk in his shoes I would handle it differently, but I can;t stop him if he wants to die, and I would rather have a doctor (over several months) prepare his family for it and try to talk them out of it than have his family come home from grocery shopping to find he slitted his wrists or hung himself to end the terror------because I believe suicide is the most selfish thing a person can do--the emotional shock that others feel from it is painful----but at least the way Kavorkian helped they had months to contemplate and come to tearms with it and understand why the patient, over several months, opted for it.

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

Euthenasia, unless I am mistaken, includes more than the killing of people who want to die (I feel this is wrong, though at least that's a sin against yourself and not upon someone else). It includes the killing of less desirables (insert your social-political definition of that here), such as old people, who don't want to be killed.

Being part of a system doesn't nullify culpability. Hitler's cronies were responsible too, there's a reason we have trials for war crimes.

To be more specific on what I alluded to before, one of the grossest parts of abortion is the butchering of babies for parts.
Check out here for some on that http://www.family.org/cforum/topics/a0018761.cfm

Technically, the partial birth abortion ban signed by Bush and Congress would stop this. But as on a number of other areas, one unelected judge has decided to veto the affect of both, by calling it "unconstitutional", as if they ever read it themselves. Morality is being legislated, and we continue to pay for it.

My dad had a strongly atheist co-worker (who committed suicide), who was complaining about Bush's push for funding faith groups. My dad responded that he was paying for a bunch of garbage, including abortion, which he detests. The atheist had never thought of it that way. So, I just hope Christians out there realize just how much of morality is being dictated already by the liberals.

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So if I stand let me stand on the promise that you will pull me through, and if I can't let me fall on the grace that first brought me to you. And if I sing let me sing for the joy that has born in me these songs, and if I weep let it be as a man who is longing for his home.
(Rich Mullins)

quote:

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we all do abominations unto God and I believe a homosexual can get into heaven---they don't check your sexual preference at the door

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--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

The Bible clearly condems homosexuality. However, it also clearly condems sex outside of marrage. This doesn't mean that no adulturer will ever get into heaven.

Jesus takes all our sins, when we give ourselves to Him. This is the principle doctrine on which all christianity is based. If you do not believe it, then I cannot see any point whatsoever in believing any of the rest.

I do not say homosexuality is right, in any sense at all, just as I do not say adultury is right, in any sense at all. I merely state that it is not our place to judge any sinner, or say who will get into heaven or not. Nor is it our place to make jokes about them.

There are christians who are tempted by homosexuality, just as there are christians who are tempted by sex outside of marrage, or by any other sin.

To claim any sin as right, or as moral, or as "OK" is definately wrong.

But please don't make jokes about homosexuals. It reflects very badly on the church, and drives away in shame those who might be otherwise interested. (Don't start a calvinist/arminian discussion from this please, if you disagree about this last reason, ignore it).

Dan "I'm probably wrong anyway" MadProf

PS - If I seem harsh, sorry.

[This message has been edited by madprof (edited November 26, 2003).]

with the adam/eve/steve thing---------that is what I am trying to say----we all sin---all sin is punishable by hell---we all deserve hell---so instead of telling gays AIDS KILLS FAGS why not tell them JESUS DIED FOR YOU AND LOVES YOU--------isnt that what he wants us to do? catch you guys later:-)

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

How did things get this way? Is it really a matter of Christianity to be concerned over abortion? euthenasia? politics? Is the church going to solve all the social ills of this generation, those of previous generations, and those of generations to come? Can the church salvage what is left of society and implement utopia?

All of you (including myself) are discussing problems that have existed for thousands of years. Governments have always legislated morality. Abortion is nothing new. Euthenasia has been known by other names.

The problem is not modern society, nor is it the environment produced by past societal - for lack of a better term - evolution.
The problem is the free will fulfillment of sinful living by humanity.
But the problem also extends beyond the sinful lifestyles of people to the complacency in the church. The church is not here to create the utopic vision of any one person, and has nothing to do with instituting a perfect and peaceful existence in this physical world.

The process of reasoning and logic I am witnessing in some of these discussions alarms me. It is reminiscent of the thinking around 30 B.C. when the people fully believed that Jesus Christ had come to destroy the kingdom of Rome (even others) and establish a heavenly kingdom here on earth. Some comments suggest a fundamental understanding that Christianity is about the physical body with spiritual benefits. This perspective - which encompasses unrecognized limitations on the power of God in all aspects of what is perceived as life - is seriously flawed.
Christianity has nothing of benefit to our physical existence. Christianity, in full context, is the total abandonment of the physical needs and desires in ourself, and the shift in perspective of priorities to the needs and desires of God. In all sincerity, it is the duty of Christians to let go of everything in this world that causes concern, worry, strife, grief, anxiety, pain, anger, hate, greed, lust, and much more - not just in the emotional and mental capacity of our existence, but also in the spiritual - to give everything in our being to the submission and control of God. In elementary terms, we are to ignore everything and everyone, except God. In doing so, we will be filled with the abilities to care for the needs of others - the spiritual, emotional, mental and physical - as well as our own.

When Christ spoke of giving the things to Caesar that are Caesar's, and the things to God that are God's, he was not just referring to taxes on monetary and material possessions.

Do not misunderstand me. I do believe we are to be stewards of this world, with our use of all we have possession of and responsibility over, in the individual sense as well as the collective. I do believe we are to confront evil and wrong-doing when we encounter it. I do believe we are to be bold witnesses. But, all of this is grounded in the battle of souls for God, and not the battle of this world. The battle for this world will come. The battle for souls will end before that time. It is a matter of priority that souls be saved, not that the laws of government are grounded in righteousness.

I firmly believe that the reason "we got this way" is due to extreme complacency in the church and in the daily life of those who call themselves Christians. Satan was given this world as his kingdom, but we (read Christians) have let him gain power and authority over the souls of our friends and neighbors by not exhibiting the testimony we should.
Would we be in financial debt if we didn't seek to appease our flesh?
Would we be in emotional distress if we didn't concern ourself with things we have no control over?
Would we be in a spiritual coma if we didn't stay home from church and partake in worldly fellowship?
Would we be slaves to this world if we didn't concern ourselves with all the things of this world?

I speak to myself just as much as I speak to any one of you. The issues we see in modern society are the result of years of spiritual weakness and laziness. Sin will abound and evil will have its place, but that does not justify leaving it up to God to work through. In all things we are to give thanks. In all things we are to seek to glorify God. In all things we are to pray without ceasing. In all things we are to humble ourselves and submit to him.

There is so much to say, but I will close with this. David wrote in Psalm 37 so much that applies to the things discussed here, but I want to focus in on one verse. In verse 4, David writes:

quote:

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(KJV) Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

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God bless,
n

good verse Nfektous:-) I guess I just want to sum up my arguement here---are you going to show them Judgement or Love? Judgement is Mine Sayth The Lord (paraphrased)--so we know he is taking care of that---so which is left for us to show---------don't love them because they sin love them in spite of it----just like Jesus loves us in spite of the fact we aren't perfect.

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

but, judgement is mine, saith the Lord?
sry, but, if my memory's correct it's "vengence."
I know you paraphrased, but they are two entirely seperate concepts.

Jesus did say judge not, unless you will be judged.
judging isn't bad, just make sure you're not the "maker of rules," you're loving, you're going by God's standards, and don't be a hypocrite.

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quote:

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but, judgement is mine, saith the Lord?
sry, but, if my memory's correct it's "vengence."
I know you paraphrased, but they are two entirely seperate concepts.

Jesus did say judge not, unless you will be judged.
judging isn't bad, just make sure you're not the "maker of rules," you're loving, you're going by God's standards, and don't be a hypocrite.

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If done with the right attitude, the two concepts are total opposites. However, done in the wrong attitude, the two become one and the same.

The paraphrase is accurate, within the context of the verse you brought to our attention. You left out the most important verse of that passage; it is not verse 1, but verse 2 that we need to remember more.

quote:

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(Matthew 7:1-5, KJV)
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

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quote:

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So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

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Karl

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Karl /GODCENTRIC
Visionary Media
the creative submitted to the divine.
Husband of my amazing wife Aleshia
Klumsy@xtra.co.nz

Me: I think people who kill deserve the death penalty

Some Annoying Bystander At Work: But your a christian----arent you supposed to forgive and forget?

wrongdoing still comes with natural consequenses---because God wipes the slate clean in heaven and forgives us totally doesnt' void the chance of other consequences happening down here.

(btw---sorry for screwing up the vengeance/judgement thing right there----but what Nfektous said (about the two being the same when used wrongly) is what I am trying to say--Vengeance and Judgement are both in God's hands and didn't Jesus say the ultimate comandment was to Love one another (when asked what is the greatest comandment---I might be wrong but I think that is how it was worded?) thanks:-)

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

annoying bystander..
hmm..
who would.. oh crap, that's me.
of course we have to forgive. but, even tho we were forgiven, we still pay the consequences for our actions.

EDIT: whoops.. you just said that....
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[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited November 27, 2003).]

quote:

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Originally posted by ArchAngel:
annoying bystander..
EDIT: whoops.. you just said that....

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READ: A jerk at my work place----he believes we should shoot some of the kids who survved the columbine massacre so they learn 'not to dwell on it' -------he is very weird and likes annoying ppl----works on our computer help desk

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

I read it as an annoying bystander at work, as in working on being annoying.. my bad..

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quote:

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Originally posted by zookey:

READ: A jerk at my work place----he believes we should shoot some of the kids who survved the columbine massacre so they learn 'not to dwell on it' -------he is very weird and likes annoying ppl----works on our computer help desk

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Hope that made sense.

Peace out bro's.

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

quote:

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Originally posted by D-SIPL:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by zookey:
[b]
READ: A jerk at my work place----he believes we should shoot some of the kids who survved the columbine massacre so they learn 'not to dwell on it' -------he is very weird and likes annoying ppl----works on our computer help desk

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Hope that made sense.

Peace out bro's.

--D-SIPL

[/B][/QUOTE]

he doesn;t mean the shooters---he means the victims who survived and 'cry' about it on national tv all the time-----------he thinks that they are weak for being traumatized by it and should 'have been over it ina month'==========that is why he is screwed up!

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

--D-SIPL

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

quote:

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Originally posted by D-SIPL:
oh right, my bad. Hey thats even more messed up then i thought!!

--D-SIPL

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oh yeah---and I am glad they moved his department to a different floor---I only have to deal with the insanity once in a while hehe

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Ignorance is bad, if you have it you will not have a good time.

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried

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If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that suggests you tried