Someone said:

>>>> But you have a point, both the abortionist and those having the abortion have bloody hands. they are guilty. or as the OT would say, the blood is on their heads.

This post reminded me of something. I started posting on a Bible discussion board recently, and was quickly asked to be a moderator. Those who know me here know that my views are not commonly held in Christendom, I believe that all Christians at the point of conversion speak in tongues, and that all the fruits and gifts are equally important. I was the only person on this forum who believed this, so some interesting discussion ensued. After a month or so, someone started a discussion on the legalisation of drugs and abortion. My *personal* opinion on this is that making things illegal is the OT approach to things, it is the law. I personally don't care if drugs are legal or not, except that it would stop a lot of crime. I still would not take them because I live according to Bible principles, even as I don't smoke or drink alcohol today. I am personally opposed to abortion, and I think it's shameful that the pro choice movement would suggest that a foetus magically becomes human at the three month point, or whatever it is they choose. However, I don't think legislation is the answer, I think that as the person I quoted above ( sorry, I'm too lazy to check, was it archangel ? ) said, the problem is that people are not educated. Even so, I have vivid memories of a girl in Ireland being raped by a family member, wanting an abortion, and being attacked by virtually the whole country over it. I think that it's a complex issue, and that the biggest problem this issue faces is the narrow mindedness of people on both sides of it.

Nevertheless, my point here is that I was stunned when I made my views known and within a day I was no longer a moderator on these forums, and was in fact banned from posting on some of the forums at all ( the Bible questions forum in particular ). The reason given was that I was not representative of their ministry. I didn't know I was supposed to be, I didn't know the forum was denominational. Had I known that I would have refused in the first place, because my Bible beliefs were different from those of others there. yet it seemed they were happy for me to promote a doctrine which meant most of the people there were saved, but when I disagreed on social issues, it was the end of the world. So my real point here is, why is it that so many churches seem not to care about Bible doctrine, so long as people 'believe in Jesus', broadly speaking, yet nail thier colours vigorously to social issues ? Why are the churches talking non stop about things that have nothing to do with the Gospel ? If a woman does not have an abortion, is her soul saved ?

As another example, I give money to Greenpeace, because I believe in what they stand for. But I would not go to a rally or protest, because while I care about the environment, I care more about not offending anyone for any reason apart from the Gospel.

Anyhow, that's a bit of a ramble, I know. But it's something I've meant to ask about here for a while, because I was so shocked by it. Do people actually think that the most important thing is a social agenda, or is it knowing that we worship and follow Jesus in accordance with His wishes ?

True, a person who commits abortion can be saved. cuz we are saved through grace and not by our works... but... as Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments, including do not murder. true, none of us keep his commandments, for we all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God.
Killing children is wrong, and I will oppose it to the end. of course, my sentiments is worthless if it is not for God, out of love. but this is not a social agenda, it is a major grievance.
We are called to be the salt and light of the world, how can we let murder of those cute little kiddies go on?

Basically, I oppose abortion because I love God and I love people.
Being a christian is more than just singing worship songs, it's following Jesus in all you do, including socially, politically, etc.

(oh, and about that girl who was raped, I would say that there was some hypocrisy on that countries part... they should have cracked down and that rapist majorily, but, aborting her kid would be wrong. What the frigg'n heck did her kid do?!?)

(oh, ever heard of Disciple's "I just know." that song seems to say alot what you are... scept it's referring more to denominations, less to abortion and stuff)

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yes, that wise sage you were quoting was me.... I feel so special

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*cough*

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Being a christian is more than just singing worship songs, it's following Jesus in all you do, including socially, politically, etc.

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Now thats a good quote. Unfortunatly most people just belive that it is going to church and singing and stuff. I dont know what the precentage of aithiests (is that the right word and spelling?) is but I know its bad. These days the word of God isnt being spread around as much .
But anyway (back on topic) thats probably why most people agree with abortions because they dont belive in a soal insted in a scientific reason, though I dont know how someone can not "belive". Probably because I was raised a christian and have been all my life I dont know the other side (darth vader breathing).

OK there is my pointless ramble for today, another ramble another post

(actually I quite like this forum alot, it ingages into different dicussians[sp?])

Hmm I use brakets too much. And lets not get into the spelling.

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Being a christian is more than just singing worship songs, it's following Jesus in all you do, including socially, politically, etc.

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We've got to be all out for God everyday of the week.

--D-SIPL

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As a nitpick, I'm not sure that Jesus ever said that. We're going back to the OT. Of course, the principle was upheld by Christ, no argument.

>>this is not a social agenda, it is a major grievance.

It *IS* a social agenda, it is an agenda that is towards society, and not towards the conduct of the church specifically. It's a view held by non Christians with as much passion, and a view that is not unique to Christians.

>>We are called to be the salt and light of the world, how can we let murder of those cute little kiddies go on?

Surely, and this is my point, and was my point on the board where it got me into trouble, the lesson of the NT is that it's better to motivate people to do good than to legislate and attempt to force it ? Making abortion illegal will kill mothers, not save children.

>>Basically, I oppose abortion because I love God and I love people.
Being a christian is more than just singing worship songs, it's following Jesus in all you do, including socially, politically, etc.

I agree wholeheartedy. I also agree with Paul, that it's about not offending for any reason but the Gospel. Can a pro life person be saved ? Meeting one, would you talk about abortion, or Christ ?

>>(oh, and about that girl who was raped, I would say that there was some hypocrisy on that countries part... they should have cracked down and that rapist majorily, but, aborting her kid would be wrong. What the frigg'n heck did her kid do?!?)

See, I disagree. If we want to say that a foetus is automatically human, at the point of conception, then why not sperm ? I oppose ALL abortion as a method of birth control, but I'd ask, what did this young woman do ? Why would you force her to look at her attakers face for the rest of her life, in her child ? Give up all her hopes and dreams for her life to raise the child of her attacker ? Or are you one to advocate adoption, as if there is an endless supply of adoptive parents, and as if this is an option that leads to well adjusted children by and large. None of the adopted children I know ( which includes my mother ) are without major problems as a result.

>>(oh, ever heard of Disciple's "I just know." that song seems to say alot what you are... scept it's referring more to denominations, less to abortion and stuff)

No, but I've been intending on starting a thread on Christian music, might do that now.

For those that have been raped, there are options besides raising the child. At least here in the U.S., we have "Moses" laws in many states that are willing to take those children and give them to needing parents. Many couples cannot have children here, so they adopt. Adoption is much better than abortion in any case. My best friend was abandoned by his father and was raised by his stepfather. He wonders about his dad sometimes, but he is the happiest guy I know. On fire for God. I have known a few people who have been adopted that were very happy in life. Not one of them ever told me they wished they were aborted.

I remember reading about Ms. Roe recently (you know, of Roe vs. Wade), and she had an interesting thought. She told how abortion was the big lie. Alot of women who have had abortions have serious problems when they look back on the child they could have had. Many have sought therapy along with other forms of comfort to deal with such a harsh decision. The mental strain of taking a "life" or "possible life" (don't want to argue that at all. I think it's a life personally at conception, but I won't argue it with you. I am not an authority on this subject, I just have read enough to know what I believe.) I know you are against abortion, but at the same time, the pain existed in women on virtually any stage of the featus' development that the woman aborted from.

Flat out, women lose when they abort, even with rape. Simple as that.

I will say if they banned you from the site because your views were a little different, that would be a little harsh in my book. I'm sure that if you are a part of an organization (for free or via a salary) however, they have a particular model the leaders expect those helping them to follow. Every organization has this, large or small, Christian or non-Christian. It seems that you stepped outside of their model when you made your comments, so I can see their point of view, but I don't know if I agree with the repercussions.

I do agree that Christians sometimes lose their main focus in social issues and that we need to keep looking up, but that doesn't mean that we blind ourselves to issues in doing so. It all goes back to WWJD. You have to evaluate social/non social issues and determine from the Word and the Holy Spirit in us why you believe right and wrong on any issue. But, it should not change your title to Pro Life, Pro Candy bars or Pro Whatever. In the end, we are all Christians, but with that responsibility, we can't ignore the world around us, or its issues.

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Originally posted by Christian:
Making abortion illegal will kill mothers, not save children.

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The US Surgeon General was once quoted as saying that in all his years he had never heard of a situation of a woman who would have died if she didn't have an abortion.

Sperm is not a human. well, I'm not gonna get into this, but we have millions and they come and go... plus, they have only 32 of our chromosones, when a "fetus" has 64 unique chromosones. Science basically says that a fetus is a human, and a sperm is just a piece of our body.
to be honest, I'm not against birth control, as long as it's pre-conception.

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Chemical birth control has several effects which discourage pregnancy. Primary, and most promoted: it blocks ovulation. However, the changes also make implantation of a zygote into the uterus more difficult.

Why is that important? Because there is "breakthrough" ovulation--times when ovulation occurs despite taking the Pill or having an implant.

When the primary method (blocking ovulation) fails, then conception becomes possible. (It may be a bit less likely than normal if the effects of the hormones also create less welcoming conditions in the cervix, but still completely doable.)

When conception occurs, the other factor comes into play: a much less hospitable uterus for the seven-day-old fertilized young person, making it difficult for the zygote to attach to the mother, which it must do at that point to survive.

We know that some sperms, eggs, and resulting humans run the entire guantlet, because the Pill has a failure rate. The question is how often fertilized eggs are rejected by the implantation factor? That we don't know, but we would have to assume it is somewhere between the Pill failure rate and the breakthrough ovulation rate. (There has to be intercourse on the candidate days of those months, and a sperm has to be successful.)

So with chemical birthcontrol, there is a chance of preventing a child that was created from surviving when it otherwise probably would have, i.e., an abortion unawares. The woman's body isn't even aware of the child until implanation, so it really is a silent death.

(Failure to implant also occurs naturally, of course, but so does miscarriage; increasing the chances of miscarriage with drugs is a chemical abortion.)

The breakthrough ovulation rate for the Pill was originally estimated at somewhere between 2 to 10 percent of cycles, but because of health risks, the amount of estrogen in birth control has been reduced (the other chemical in the birth control is progesterone) making higher percentages of break-throughs likely and more likely for the suppression of implantation (abortion) to be the method of preventing pregnancy rather than preventing ovulation.

Even worse, according to pro-life materials the IUD implant does not even block ovulation, so it would cause abortion much more often!

You can read an intro to the subject at:

http://www.all.org/brthcnt.htm
http://www.prolife.com/BIRTHCNT.html

Those are good starting points although you can do a lot more research if you really want to delve into it.

Bottom line: this is a real-life conspiracy, because the birth control manufacturers, sex-ed educators, and advocacy groups have all been pretty quiet about this aspect of chemical birth control. Besides the general population, a lot of Christians and even pro-life Christians don't know about it.

P.S. Because I like to look at all the angles: The other question this raises, obviously, is the case of natural pregnancy suppression during pregnancy and the lactation period. Is the same risk possible? I inquired this to a major pro-life organization and was recommended to consult a doctor. I was thinking of asking a pro-life doctor's association but don't remember whether I did; anyway I haven't gotten the answer. I had forgotten about it until reading the posts here; maybe I should try again.

If the risk of abortion occurs only or mainly with the chemical contraception, that looks bad for chemical contraception. If there is the same risk in natural situations (speculation, as I still don't have the follow-through with the pro-life doctors), then I guess it boils down to weighing risks with necessities; in the natural situations, a pregnancy would create more risk for the first child. With contraception, there are no necessities to weigh, so it still comes out looking bad for the chemical birth control.

Well, there it is, FYI...... Sorry for a long post.

I made a lengthy reply and it's disappeared. I'll just repeat this: what I meant is that making abortion illegal will result in risky, illegal abortions, and womem will die.

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Originally posted by Christian:
I made a lengthy reply and it's disappeared. I'll just repeat this: what I meant is that making abortion illegal will result in risky, illegal abortions, and womem will die.

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huh, yeah, I was execting kinda of a long post.

so, basically making abortion illegal causes illegal abortions and women dieing... so, why not make murder legal! [sarcasm] ya, know all of those serial killers are at risk of performing risky murders, and having to get away? dang, that's hard. and, what if they get caught! whoa.... they might go to jail![/sarcasm]

The government is here to promote justice and punish evil.
Dim Abortion = Evil

If Abortion = Evil then
Illegalize(Abortion)
End if

It's not like these women haaavvvvee to have an abortion.

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I guess I should bow out of this conversation, it's clearly not going in a rational direction. My point was and is that you can't STOP people from having abortions unless you stop them WANTING to. Education over legislation.

>>The government is here to promote justice and punish evil.

No, actually.

>>Dim Abortion = Evil

LOL - you've shown your VB leanings, this is not good.

>.If Abortion = Evil then
>>Illegalize(Abortion)
>>End if

Have you heard of prohibition ? All it did was generate crime.

>> It's not like these women haaavvvvee to have an abortion.

I never said they did. Try reading my posts.

Another thing I said before, which I will reiterate, is that your reading of the Bible is very shallow.

>>What about Jesus saying it's better for a man to have a stone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea than for him to hurt a little kid.
We are called to love our neighbors. that is a greater commandment than spreading the gospel.

Actually, in the verse in question, Jesus said 'one of these little ones who believe in me'. The words 'little ones' means a group small in number, not all children. Secondly, the first commandment is to love God, the second to love our neighbour. we fulfill both when we preach the Gospel.

Abortion is a highly emotional issue, and obviously not one you can approach with reason, otherwise you would actually respond to what I say, instead of a straw man. You actually brought it up when I said it was wrong to focus on social issues and cause offence for something other than the Gospel. I should have ignored it, because you were doing what I'd already said was a bad idea. I would be interested to discuss why it is that some 'christian' people seem so attached to the idea of legislating Christian principles when the NT is all about how that is bound to fail. But I don't want to talk about abortion anymore. The idea of abortion sickens me, yet I find myself taking a contrary position because the position you present is so divorced from reality. Nevertheless, it is better that we hold our views in peace and if we must discagree, it be about something that will matter in a million years from now, i.e. the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I wish you well.

basically, the linchpin of what we disagree on is government involvement. you said that government is not supposed promote justice and punish evil. I think it is. we seem to both agree on abortion is bad.

I'm not gonna give a supporting verse, cuz I'm too lazy to look it up, but I remember that the bible saying that the government is a, crap, forgot the word, something to do with a punishing evil doers. it's along with obeying the gov and stuff...
I'm not a political passivist(sorta a self-made term)...

True, making abortions legal won't stop it, but it will discourage it, lower the numbers, and it's the right thing to do.

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Read that carefully, think about it carefully, and then reply. I'll get back to this in a few days - to give anyone interested a chance to reply and to allow me to go on with my life and avoid becoming argumentative or offensive.

Cheers,
n

Thought provoking. A lot of definitions need to be given to answer this. Is a pace maker unnatural ? A condom obviously is, and so is the pill. I'd ask another question - is it ever right for Christians to try to make the world live by our moral code, instead of trying to make them people who love God ?

No, the lynchpin of what we disagree on is the OT (you) vs the NT (me). My comment on the government was a throwaway line, no government is just. I apologise if I offended you, I'm sure you are generally a rational person, you yourself said you were emotional about this, and it showed. I am horrified that you're so dismissive of how little you know the Bible though. But that is up to you, and between you and God ( meaning not that I judge you, but that it's none of my business, OK ? )

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Christian
No, the lynchpin of what we disagree on is the OT (you) vs the NT (me).

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My comment on the government was a throwaway line, no government is just

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I apologise if I offended you

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I am horrified that you're so dismissive of how little you know the Bible though.

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I'm sure you are generally a rational person, you yourself said you were emotional about this, and it showed.

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meaning not that I judge you, but that it's none of my business, OK ?

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nfektious
Is it ever right to cease a natural function of our God-given body using unnatural means?

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back to Christian
is it ever right for Christians to try to make the world live by our moral code, instead of trying to make them people who love God ?

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DANG!!! that's one huge post! man, why do I keep doing that... I hate reading large posts too...

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[This message has been edited by ArchAngel (edited September 29, 2003).]

No, I never said they did. BUT the point of the NT was to fulfill the example given in the OT 'the OT is a school master to bring us to Christ'. The point of the OT was that God told people the right way to live. The point of the NT is that although the Law was perfect, we are unable to keep it, and so Jesus died so that His Spirit could write it in our hearts. God did not change, He simply fulfilled His plan to make us able to follow Him.

>> so, I'm not exactly sure why you said this, is it cuz we disagree on our interpretations or is it that I accidently misquoted it?

Because your explantion of one verse was completely different to what it meant. I agree, we are supposed to correct each other, I just meant ( with my comment about not judging you ) that I'm not trying to claim judgement in a sense of claiming to be superior. We all need correction, that's what the church in general, and communion especially, are for.

>> well, we can't make them love God. end of story, it's between them and God.

Exactly what I've been trying to say. Why make people live as something they are not ? Why cloud the Gospel by making people think it's about telling people how to live their life, when it's really about following Jesus, and living a particular way because of the joy that brings ?

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Christian
Because your explantion of one verse was completely different to what it meant.

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I know we can't expect people to live to our standards, but when it comes to killing children, they crossed the line from screwing themselves to screwing others. I hate the killing of children, and I will do what I can to stop it. I'm not out to get them. those kids cannot protect themselves, somebody needs to look out for them.

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Q: Is it ever right to cease a natural function of our God-given body using unnatural means?

A: Thought provoking. A lot of definitions need to be given to answer this. Is a pace maker unnatural ? A condom obviously is, and so is the pill. I'd ask another question - is it ever right for Christians to try to make the world live by our moral code, instead of trying to make them people who love God?

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A note: A pacemaker is not designed to cease a natural function of the body; it is intended to assist and maintain a natural function of the body, thereby extending life. This does bring up another question, is it right to use unnatural means to extend the natural limits of a person's life? (Isn't it odd how humans try to deal with preventing life and preserving life? Somewhat backward thinking, isn't it? The only life worth saving is your own - when you get to the heart of the matter, this is the core rationale of secular thought. This is where Christianity differs from every other religion/philosophy of life. Christianity is built on the principle of self-sacrifice for the benefit of others.)

Christian's question is a good one, and it drives to the core issue - or rather purpose - of Christianity and being a Christian. Religion is built on doing good deeds - in its basic concept it is focused on treating social issues (note, not necessarily resolving the problem, but dealing with the symptoms). Christianity goes straight to the core and deals with the lifestyle and thought processes of the person, who, when living according to the example and teachings of Christ, will present the ideal method of improving society by improving each member of that society. If those who claim to be Christian were genuinely living according to the example and teachings of Christ, we would not be faced with the severe social issues we have today. Abortion, World Hunger, Civil Disobedience, Apathy...these issues (and many others) will still exist because people choose to live the way they want to; but, chances are that these issues would be less prominent because the effectiveness of our testimony - in word and deed - would make this world a better place.
I, personally, do hold alot of blame on the Church. I have witnessed churches in America focus on what goes on inside their walls to the point that they forget there are people who try to just get by from day to day on the outside of their walls. On the other hand, I have also seen churches focus so much on what goes on outside their walls that they are oblivious to the sin and evil that is running rampant inside their church. In both extremes (sadly they aren't at all extremes), the people who need God the most go on about their business unimpressed and skeptical that God even exists. Is it any wonder?
The modern church has not moved far beyond its role in the Middle Ages - to make as many converts as possible. There is more to Christianity than mere salvation from sin. The Church has to educate, mentor, EDIFY those who are new converts; even those who have been in the church for decades need this (including myself). I have seen the beginnings of this edification recently - thank God - but there is a long way to go. Jesus set the example: build the ministry at home, then take it to other places. We (the Church) have our priorities out of order; not until we get our house in order can we expect to impact the communities we live in, and then affect the social climate.

God bless,
n

/me runs around the room and pokes everyone good and hard in the ribs

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Originally posted by Christian:
I thought that what nfektious said was really good, I had nothing to add....

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yeah, I second that... that's why I have no response...

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